On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 03:11:03 -0400, Michael Trew <mt999999@ymail.com>
wrote:

>On 7/14/2021 12:20 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 11:34:08 -0400, Michael Trew<mt999999@ymail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/13/2021 5:01 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> Nahh. The damned thing has some piece of crap Microsoft electronic
>>>> device built into it that makes it decide not to start at random
>>>> intervals. Solution is to fish under the dash, pull a fuse, wait a
>>>> minute, put the fuse back. And of course it won't run if I just pull
>>>> the fuse out and leave it out.
>>>>
>>>> That's why I'm getting rid of it at my earliest convenience.
>>>
>>> I'll try not to get started on a car rant again, but stuff like that is
>>> my reasoning for driving 90's and back vehicles. I like the old stuff
>>> without computers and touch screens!
>>
>> No, I've never had wiring fail in old cars or door posts break off,
>> then the bandaid (weld) attempting to put the humpty car back
>> together, also failed within days. Fit and finish of those cars was
>> *perfect* and they never rusted out before they were paid for (when a
>> 36mo loan was long). Yep, the good ol' days.
>
>
>I think you're referring to 70's cars. I've never seen one of my 90's
>cars rust out that quickly.

'90s cars didn't operate as you say yours do. Even back in the BT
(before Trew) era, ignitions were locked out until the car was in PARK
or the clutch depressed. Oh, and then there was the refusal to start
as long as everyone in the front had their seat belt fastened. Federal
DOT rules and all that.

>BTW, my '75 Dart is still going strong!

'75 Darts *never* went strong, even new.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 05:08:49 -0400, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 03:14:08 -0400, Michael Trew <mt999999@ymail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 7/14/2021 2:34 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 7/14/2021 10:34 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>> On 7/13/2021 5:01 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> Nahh. The damned thing has some piece of crap Microsoft electronic
>>>>> device built into it that makes it decide not to start at random
>>>>> intervals. Solution is to fish under the dash, pull a fuse, wait a
>>>>> minute, put the fuse back. And of course it won't run if I just pull
>>>>> the fuse out and leave it out.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's why I'm getting rid of it at my earliest convenience.
>>>>
>>>> I'll try not to get started on a car rant again, but stuff like that
>>>> is my reasoning for driving 90's and back vehicles. I like the old
>>>> stuff without computers and touch screens!
>>>
>>> You have to go back to the 70's to avoid computers.
>>>
>>> I will take the computers any day.
>>>
>>> In 1980 Oldsmobile introduced the ECM. Suddenly V6 engines were out
>>> performing v8's and getting better gas mileage.
>>
>>I didn't mean ignition control computers. I meant the crazy touch
>>screen every-single-simple-manual-control-is-microprocessor-controlled
>>madness.
>
>The thing is, once the computer and touch-screen are there, letting
>them control everything saves hardware cost. And the programmming can
>be done by below-US-minimum-wage labor in India, so it's to the
>benefit of the manufacturer to do it that way.

Hell, we just imported an army of them on H1Bs to do the work, then
shipped them back when the work was done. Hundreds.

>>I like manual HVAC controls (you can feel the levers operate
>>as you pull/push switches), manual windows, throttle cable (not wire),
>>manual everything. Electronic spark control (or "ECM" more recently) is
>>fine.
>
>The thing is the goverment is now requiring electronically controlled
>braking and electronic stability control among other things.

Air bags, backup cameras, running lights... .

On 7/15/2021 2:04 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
Snip
>
> I have a push-button start car now... the key in my '93 Metro doesn't do
> anything when you turn it all the way, so you have to push this fancy
> button hacked into the dash board to kick the ignition solenoid on.
> Don't bump it when the engine's running, or you'll shear the teeth off
> of the flywheel -- or the gears off of the starter - maybe both.

So you prefer the issues you described above. Jeez!

On 7/15/2021 1:33 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 09:53:08 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/15/2021 9:40 AM, Markem618 wrote:
>>> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 09:26:12 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/15/2021 2:07 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>>> On 7/14/2021 10:41 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>> "Start/Stop" is no more.  For some reason customers didn't like their
>>>>>> engine shutting off at every stoplight.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I couldn't help but to think that those cars are rather inefficient...
>>>>> in the manner that, can you think of how fast those starters are going
>>>>> to wear out?  What happens when that technology fails and the car fails
>>>>> to restart... then you're stranded at the stop light with people laying
>>>>> on their horns.  No thanks, just keep my engine running for a minute.
>>>>
>>>> These vehicles have HD starters and upgraded batteries.
>>>>
>>>> As far as it failing, no more likely than any vehicle simply stalling
>>>> and causing issues.
>>>>
>>>> You are over thinking it.
>>>>
>>>> FWIW I don't care for the start stop feature at all but you get used to it.
>>>
>>> With as little as I drive now the battery is not charged enough for
>>> the stop/start to work.
>>>
>>
>>
>> IF the battery is below a certain charge/voltage the engine does not stop.
>
> My ('13) truck isn't start/stop but has a weird "battery saving mode"
> that comes up on the center-stack display but I really don't
> understand what it does. It doesn't like my (Qi) phone charger or my
> GPS/backup camera display plugged in overnight (even not being used).
> Eventually it'll complain. Running it during the day doesn't seem to
> put enough back on the battery to keep it from complaining.
>

That may be a mode that cuts back on excessive draw of the alternator
and if battery voltage cannot keep up. Maybe like my iPhone in battery
saving mode. Once a threshold is met the screen dims and a few other
things happen.

On 7/15/2021 1:37 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 08:59:52 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/14/2021 9:41 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> Snip
>>
>>>
>>> No, "Start/Stop" is where the engine shuts off at stoplights and
>>> restarts when you press on the accelerator.
>>
>> Actually on my F150, if YOU stop the vehicle you simply take your foot
>> off of the brake pedal to restart the engine, that is with normal
>> start/stop operation.
>>
>> If you are using adaptive cruise control and the vehicle stops on it's
>> own and shuts down the engine, you restart by pressing the accelerator
>> pedal and that also releases the brake.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> How do you get in and out of ACC mode in her car? You know, to listen to the radio
>>>> without the engine running.
>>>
>>> Actually, I don't know. She doesn't let me drive it. ;-)
>>>>
>>>>>> How do you get out of ACC mode? You push the Start/Stop button again, which puts the
>>>>>> van in Run mode (lamp test runs, relays click and clack, HVAC comes on, etc.) then press
>>>>>> it again to shut the van off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe all Push To Start vehicles act like that. This is my first one.
>>>>> Fortunately they were a bad idea that went where all bad ideas went.
>>>>> It was a PITA to design to, also.
>>>>
>>>> Aren't almost all newer cars Push To Start? *What* went where all bad ideas went?
>>>
>>> "Start/Stop" is no more. For some reason customers didn't like their
>>> engine shutting off at every stoplight.
>>>
>>
>> 2019 F150 has engine stop/start but that can be over ridden after every
>> engine start using the start button.
>
> There is usually some magic and totally incomprehensible combination
> of button pushes and knob twisting that will disable the feature
> permanently.

From what I understand you disconnect a small lead connected directly
to the battery. That apparently is what is telling the system what the
voltage is and whether it is OK to stop the engine or not. And IIRC
when you unplug that lead you get a warning of some sort indication a
problem with voltage. BUT the engine no longer shuts off when stopped.

And for the button pushing, I thought I found it deep inside the
instrument panel tabs. After several steps I found a setting to disable
the auto stop feature. Unfortunately it works exactly like the button
on the dash. It does not lock the setting after the engine is manually
turned off.

>>
>> And the engine does not shut down at every stop light. It all seems to
>> depend on the load on the battery. If your AC is working to keep the
>> temp cool, it will not shut down. And by the same token if the engine
>> does shut down and the interior temp changes the engine will
>> automatically restart whether you are ready to proceed or not.

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 3:04:21 AM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:
> On 7/14/2021 6:41 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> > Well, I used to push my '67 dodge pickup to start it, so long as I remembered
> > to park facing downslope.
> HAHA, that's a good one. I've gone 3 months on a battery that was bad
> enough that it had to be push started every time.
>
> I have a push-button start car now... the key in my '93 Metro doesn't do
> anything when you turn it all the way, so you have to push this fancy
> button hacked into the dash board to kick the ignition solenoid on.
> Don't bump it when the engine's running, or you'll shear the teeth off
> of the flywheel -- or the gears off of the starter - maybe both.

Your mention of shearing teeth reminds me of my 66 Rambler Ambassador.

That car needed some dental work on the flywheel and sometimes screeched
when I tried to start it. Each "screech" would move the flywheel a little bit and
the starter would eventually grab enough good teeth to start. 2 - 3 screeches at
most. ;-)

But what I was really reminded of was the "switch" I installed for the sound system.
The AM radio in a 66 Rambler Ambassador was not the type that could be replaced
with an aftermarket AM/FM radio because of the vertical mounting layout of the
factory radio. Tall and shallow vs. short and deep like most radios.

https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/313568843276_/1966-AMC-Rambler-Ambassador-AM-Pushbutton-Radio-w.jpg

So I hung one of those FM Radio/Cassette Players under the dash and used a big
toggle switch to swap the 4 speakers from the OEM AM radio to the FM/Cassette unit.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-pioneer-kp-500-dash-cassette-28144815

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 16:31:21 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 7/15/2021 1:33 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 09:53:08 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/15/2021 9:40 AM, Markem618 wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 09:26:12 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/15/2021 2:07 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/14/2021 10:41 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>>> "Start/Stop" is no more.  For some reason customers didn't like their
>>>>>>> engine shutting off at every stoplight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I couldn't help but to think that those cars are rather inefficient...
>>>>>> in the manner that, can you think of how fast those starters are going
>>>>>> to wear out?  What happens when that technology fails and the car fails
>>>>>> to restart... then you're stranded at the stop light with people laying
>>>>>> on their horns.  No thanks, just keep my engine running for a minute.
>>>>>
>>>>> These vehicles have HD starters and upgraded batteries.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as it failing, no more likely than any vehicle simply stalling
>>>>> and causing issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> You are over thinking it.
>>>>>
>>>>> FWIW I don't care for the start stop feature at all but you get used to it.
>>>>
>>>> With as little as I drive now the battery is not charged enough for
>>>> the stop/start to work.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> IF the battery is below a certain charge/voltage the engine does not stop.
>>
>> My ('13) truck isn't start/stop but has a weird "battery saving mode"
>> that comes up on the center-stack display but I really don't
>> understand what it does. It doesn't like my (Qi) phone charger or my
>> GPS/backup camera display plugged in overnight (even not being used).
>> Eventually it'll complain. Running it during the day doesn't seem to
>> put enough back on the battery to keep it from complaining.
>>
>
>That may be a mode that cuts back on excessive draw of the alternator
>and if battery voltage cannot keep up. Maybe like my iPhone in battery
>saving mode. Once a threshold is met the screen dims and a few other
>things happen.

I'm not sure what it's turning off. Everything seems to work. It's
surprising to me that the battery doesn't last months with these
little loads. I gotta measure them sometime. They may not be as
small as I think.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 16:37:48 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 7/15/2021 1:37 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 08:59:52 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/14/2021 9:41 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> Snip
>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, "Start/Stop" is where the engine shuts off at stoplights and
>>>> restarts when you press on the accelerator.
>>>
>>> Actually on my F150, if YOU stop the vehicle you simply take your foot
>>> off of the brake pedal to restart the engine, that is with normal
>>> start/stop operation.
>>>
>>> If you are using adaptive cruise control and the vehicle stops on it's
>>> own and shuts down the engine, you restart by pressing the accelerator
>>> pedal and that also releases the brake.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> How do you get in and out of ACC mode in her car? You know, to listen to the radio
>>>>> without the engine running.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, I don't know. She doesn't let me drive it. ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>>>> How do you get out of ACC mode? You push the Start/Stop button again, which puts the
>>>>>>> van in Run mode (lamp test runs, relays click and clack, HVAC comes on, etc.) then press
>>>>>>> it again to shut the van off.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe all Push To Start vehicles act like that. This is my first one.
>>>>>> Fortunately they were a bad idea that went where all bad ideas went.
>>>>>> It was a PITA to design to, also.
>>>>>
>>>>> Aren't almost all newer cars Push To Start? *What* went where all bad ideas went?
>>>>
>>>> "Start/Stop" is no more. For some reason customers didn't like their
>>>> engine shutting off at every stoplight.
>>>>
>>>
>>> 2019 F150 has engine stop/start but that can be over ridden after every
>>> engine start using the start button.
>>
>> There is usually some magic and totally incomprehensible combination
>> of button pushes and knob twisting that will disable the feature
>> permanently.
>
> From what I understand you disconnect a small lead connected directly
>to the battery. That apparently is what is telling the system what the
>voltage is and whether it is OK to stop the engine or not. And IIRC
>when you unplug that lead you get a warning of some sort indication a
>problem with voltage. BUT the engine no longer shuts off when stopped.
>
>And for the button pushing, I thought I found it deep inside the
>instrument panel tabs. After several steps I found a setting to disable
>the auto stop feature. Unfortunately it works exactly like the button
>on the dash. It does not lock the setting after the engine is manually
>turned off.
>
I don't have a start/stop vehicle (before and after) but a friend's
Infiniti (or Acura, I can't remember) had some sequence of cockpit
controls that disabled the feature completely.

On 7/15/2021 2:37 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 08:59:52 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/14/2021 9:41 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> Snip
>>
>>>
>>> No, "Start/Stop" is where the engine shuts off at stoplights and
>>> restarts when you press on the accelerator.
>>
>> Actually on my F150, if YOU stop the vehicle you simply take your foot
>> off of the brake pedal to restart the engine, that is with normal
>> start/stop operation.
>>
>> If you are using adaptive cruise control and the vehicle stops on it's
>> own and shuts down the engine, you restart by pressing the accelerator
>> pedal and that also releases the brake.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> How do you get in and out of ACC mode in her car? You know, to listen to the radio
>>>> without the engine running.
>>>
>>> Actually, I don't know. She doesn't let me drive it. ;-)
>>>>
>>>>>> How do you get out of ACC mode? You push the Start/Stop button again, which puts the
>>>>>> van in Run mode (lamp test runs, relays click and clack, HVAC comes on, etc.) then press
>>>>>> it again to shut the van off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe all Push To Start vehicles act like that. This is my first one.
>>>>> Fortunately they were a bad idea that went where all bad ideas went.
>>>>> It was a PITA to design to, also.
>>>>
>>>> Aren't almost all newer cars Push To Start? *What* went where all bad ideas went?
>>>
>>> "Start/Stop" is no more. For some reason customers didn't like their
>>> engine shutting off at every stoplight.
>>>
>>
>> 2019 F150 has engine stop/start but that can be over ridden after every
>> engine start using the start button.
>
> There is usually some magic and totally incomprehensible combination
> of button pushes and knob twisting that will disable the feature
> permanently.

If the car was tested using the Start/Stop mode to get the EPA ratings,
it must start in that mode every time. You'd have to get into the ECU
to disable it. The question comes up often on car forums.

On 7/15/2021 4:59 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 3:04:21 AM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:
>> On 7/14/2021 6:41 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Well, I used to push my '67 dodge pickup to start it, so long as I remembered
>>> to park facing downslope.
>> HAHA, that's a good one. I've gone 3 months on a battery that was bad
>> enough that it had to be push started every time.
>>
>> I have a push-button start car now... the key in my '93 Metro doesn't do
>> anything when you turn it all the way, so you have to push this fancy
>> button hacked into the dash board to kick the ignition solenoid on.
>> Don't bump it when the engine's running, or you'll shear the teeth off
>> of the flywheel -- or the gears off of the starter - maybe both.
>
> Your mention of shearing teeth reminds me of my 66 Rambler Ambassador.
>
> That car needed some dental work on the flywheel and sometimes screeched
> when I tried to start it. Each "screech" would move the flywheel a little bit and
> the starter would eventually grab enough good teeth to start. 2 - 3 screeches at
> most. ;-)
>
> But what I was really reminded of was the "switch" I installed for the sound system.
> The AM radio in a 66 Rambler Ambassador was not the type that could be replaced
> with an aftermarket AM/FM radio because of the vertical mounting layout of the
> factory radio. Tall and shallow vs. short and deep like most radios.
>
> https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/313568843276_/1966-AMC-Rambler-Ambassador-AM-Pushbutton-Radio-w.jpg
>
> So I hung one of those FM Radio/Cassette Players under the dash and used a big
> toggle switch to swap the 4 speakers from the OEM AM radio to the FM/Cassette unit.
>
> https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-pioneer-kp-500-dash-cassette-28144815
>
>
>
>
>
Where are you going to hang your CB radio? ;~)

On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 10:15:38 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> On 7/15/2021 4:59 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 3:04:21 AM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:
> >> On 7/14/2021 6:41 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>> Well, I used to push my '67 dodge pickup to start it, so long as I remembered
> >>> to park facing downslope.
> >> HAHA, that's a good one. I've gone 3 months on a battery that was bad
> >> enough that it had to be push started every time.
> >>
> >> I have a push-button start car now... the key in my '93 Metro doesn't do
> >> anything when you turn it all the way, so you have to push this fancy
> >> button hacked into the dash board to kick the ignition solenoid on.
> >> Don't bump it when the engine's running, or you'll shear the teeth off
> >> of the flywheel -- or the gears off of the starter - maybe both.
> >
> > Your mention of shearing teeth reminds me of my 66 Rambler Ambassador.
> >
> > That car needed some dental work on the flywheel and sometimes screeched
> > when I tried to start it. Each "screech" would move the flywheel a little bit and
> > the starter would eventually grab enough good teeth to start. 2 - 3 screeches at
> > most. ;-)
> >
> > But what I was really reminded of was the "switch" I installed for the sound system.
> > The AM radio in a 66 Rambler Ambassador was not the type that could be replaced
> > with an aftermarket AM/FM radio because of the vertical mounting layout of the
> > factory radio. Tall and shallow vs. short and deep like most radios.
> >
> > https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/313568843276_/1966-AMC-Rambler-Ambassador-AM-Pushbutton-Radio-w.jpg
> >
> > So I hung one of those FM Radio/Cassette Players under the dash and used a big
> > toggle switch to swap the 4 speakers from the OEM AM radio to the FM/Cassette unit.
> >
> > https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-pioneer-kp-500-dash-cassette-28144815
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Where are you going to hang your CB radio? ;~)

I actually had a mount for that too. I didn't use it in NYC, but I would throw it in if a bunch
of us were taking a multi-car road trip "upstate". Slap that big ole' magnetic antenna on
the roof and off we'd go. ;-) (no cell phones back then)

I remember the day that I moved out of NYC and was heading up north. It got so foggy that
I could barely see the white line on the side of the highway. I got behind an 18 wheeler, called
him on the CB and let him know that I was close behind, using him as my guide. He was more
than happy to help.

Another time I was travelling across the top of NYS in a blizzard. With the remote area
and the weather, comms were really bad. I reached a point where I heard a trucker trying
to raise someone - anyone - on Channel 19. He had slid off the road. We kept talking
until I reached his location, took note of the mile marker and told him that I'd keep
trying to raise a trooper and let him know the location. I eventually managed to do
that and (I assume) the situation got taken care of.

On 7/15/2021 9:49 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 7/15/2021 2:05 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>> On 7/14/2021 8:05 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> If you depress the brake petal the engine will start. Just like a
>>> vehicle with a keyed ignition switch.
>>
>>
>> Do you have to depress the brake to start a modern key'd car? I've
>> driven some where the brake must be applied to shift out of park, but
>> never to start it.
>
>
> IIRC my Tundra was like that but I may have forgotten. IIRC also all
> require the pedal to be depressed to move out of Park.

I've owned a few cars that have to have the brake depressed to shift
from park, but not the older ones. My '89 Olds cutlass cruiser is the
newest one that doesn't require the brake I believe. Every one before
that back to my '75 Dart are the same. Perhaps that's an early 90's thing?

On 7/15/2021 10:15 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Michael Trew<mt999999@ymail.com> writes:
>> On 7/14/2021 8:05 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> If you depress the brake petal the engine will start. Just like a
>>> vehicle with a keyed ignition switch.
>>
>>
>> Do you have to depress the brake to start a modern key'd car? I've
>> driven some where the brake must be applied to shift out of park, but
>> never to start it.
>
> I have to press the clutch to start my chevy colorado (2016, physical key).

That's most manuals since the 80's. My '83 F150 is the newest I've
owned that doesn't have a "clutch safety" switch. I'm not sure if
that's due to the transmission, 3 on the tree, or if that just wasn't
implemented into trucks until later (alternatively, it could have been
bypassed by someone). I feel like I've talked to people with vehicles
older than '83 that had to have the clutch pressed to start. My 90's
and newer vehicles all require that. My dad's '70 Chevelle doesn't
require the clutch pressed. If you want an auto starter on a manual,
you have to have the clutch safety bypassed... don't leave it parked in
gear!

On 7/15/2021 5:26 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 7/15/2021 2:04 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
> Snip
>>
>> I have a push-button start car now... the key in my '93 Metro doesn't
>> do anything when you turn it all the way, so you have to push this
>> fancy button hacked into the dash board to kick the ignition solenoid
>> on. Don't bump it when the engine's running, or you'll shear the teeth
>> off of the flywheel -- or the gears off of the starter - maybe both.
>
> So you prefer the issues you described above. Jeez!

Prefer is not a good term. I prefer a cheap car, that runs. I was
making an amusing point about the "push button start" in my car, since
it was hacked in to fix some issue by the prior owner. Possibly a
failure in the ignition key cylinder.

On 7/15/2021 5:59 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 3:04:21 AM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:
>> On 7/14/2021 6:41 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Well, I used to push my '67 dodge pickup to start it, so long as I remembered
>>> to park facing downslope.
>> HAHA, that's a good one. I've gone 3 months on a battery that was bad
>> enough that it had to be push started every time.
>>
>> I have a push-button start car now... the key in my '93 Metro doesn't do
>> anything when you turn it all the way, so you have to push this fancy
>> button hacked into the dash board to kick the ignition solenoid on.
>> Don't bump it when the engine's running, or you'll shear the teeth off
>> of the flywheel -- or the gears off of the starter - maybe both.
>
> Your mention of shearing teeth reminds me of my 66 Rambler Ambassador.
>
> That car needed some dental work on the flywheel and sometimes screeched
> when I tried to start it. Each "screech" would move the flywheel a little bit and
> the starter would eventually grab enough good teeth to start. 2 - 3 screeches at
> most. ;-)
>
> But what I was really reminded of was the "switch" I installed for the sound system.
> The AM radio in a 66 Rambler Ambassador was not the type that could be replaced
> with an aftermarket AM/FM radio because of the vertical mounting layout of the
> factory radio. Tall and shallow vs. short and deep like most radios.
>
> https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/313568843276_/1966-AMC-Rambler-Ambassador-AM-Pushbutton-Radio-w.jpg
>
> So I hung one of those FM Radio/Cassette Players under the dash and used a big
> toggle switch to swap the 4 speakers from the OEM AM radio to the FM/Cassette unit.
>
> https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-pioneer-kp-500-dash-cassette-28144815
>
>
>
>

If enough teeth break off, it won't be able to catch at a certain point
on the flywheel at all. I have a couple missing teeth on my '89 Olds
Wagon. It doesn't prevent it from starting, but it's sometimes noisy
when starting. I think it happened during a catastrophic starter
failure. I killed the engine in the KFC drive thru, and it went
pop/bang and only made a grinding noise when attempting to start after
that. Perhaps the started wasn't lined up correctly, but whatever
happened, the whole starter case was cracked through, forcing the
starter teeth away from the flywheel. I ordered a starter, and replaced
it in the KFC parking lot the next day. The people behind me helped me
push it into a parking spot, and the manager let me keep it there until
tomorrow.

Someone put an AM/FM/Cassette similar to that into my dad's Chevelle
under the dash. The '75 Dart that I just bought has the factory AM only
radio in it. There is a wiring issue somewhere; the fuel/temp gauges
don't work, neither do any of the gauge lights. Same for the AM
radio... I'd assume it would still work. I'd love to test it if I can
find the bad wire. I replaced the fuse; it didn't seem to help.

On 7/15/2021 10:26 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 7/15/2021 2:07 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>> On 7/14/2021 10:41 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> "Start/Stop" is no more. For some reason customers didn't like their
>>> engine shutting off at every stoplight.
>>
>>
>> I couldn't help but to think that those cars are rather inefficient...
>> in the manner that, can you think of how fast those starters are going
>> to wear out? What happens when that technology fails and the car
>> fails to restart... then you're stranded at the stop light with people
>> laying on their horns. No thanks, just keep my engine running for a
>> minute.
>
> These vehicles have HD starters and upgraded batteries.
>
> As far as it failing, no more likely than any vehicle simply stalling
> and causing issues.
>
> You are over thinking it.
>
> FWIW I don't care for the start stop feature at all but you get used to it.

I didn't know all of that. I don't know much of anything about cars
newer than 20 years old. I have owned plenty of cars that sometimes
don't like to start again when shut off, and the thought of the engine
being off momentarily and needing to be on again at a moments notice,
such as sitting in traffic, gives me a lot of anxiety. Out of habit, I
always park in such a manner that I can bump start the car myself to get
moving if need be.

On 7/15/2021 2:29 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 03:07:57 -0400, Michael Trew<mt999999@ymail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/14/2021 10:41 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> "Start/Stop" is no more. For some reason customers didn't like their
>>> engine shutting off at every stoplight.
>>
>>
>> I couldn't help but to think that those cars are rather inefficient...
>> in the manner that, can you think of how fast those starters are going
>> to wear out? What happens when that technology fails and the car fails
>> to restart... then you're stranded at the stop light with people laying
>> on their horns. No thanks, just keep my engine running for a minute.
>
> You're still of thinking '70s cars.

Well, 70's to 90's cars. I've only owned one or two vehicles newer than
2000, and it wasn't for very long. The thought of being stuck in heavy
traffic in a disabled car gives me anxiety, and that's not pleasant to
drive around with.

On 7/15/2021 2:48 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 09:30:03 -0500, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/15/2021 2:00 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>> On 7/14/2021 1:00 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>> Have you ever parked, wanted to turn off the engine but continue
>>>> listening to what's
>>>> playing on the audio system? You have to leave the van in gear and
>>>> press the Start/Stop
>>>> button. The engine will shut off and the audio system will stay on
>>>> (ACC mode). Now you
>>>> can put the van in Park...if you remember.;-)
>>>>
>>>> How do you get out of ACC mode? You push the Start/Stop button again,
>>>> which puts the
>>>> van in Run mode (lamp test runs, relays click and clack, HVAC comes
>>>> on, etc.) then press
>>>> it again to shut the van off.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe all Push To Start vehicles act like that. This is my first one.
>>>>
>>>> I hate it because it's putting extra wear and tear on systems. I
>>>> always let it come
>>>> to steady state in Run mode because I don't want to turn it off midway
>>>> through
>>>> it's "start-up procedure". PITA just to use the ACC mode.
>>>>
>>>> That's just some of the weird stuff that the infotainment system does.
>>>> Terrible
>>>> design, coding, etc.
>>>
>>>
>>> That's awful... I can cut the ignition key and throw the shifter into
>>> neutral, and roll to a stop in a parking lot. Throw it back in gear,
>>> and engage parking brake (if it works)... key out, and get moving. Key
>>> can come out sooner if you're stopping in a straight line (wheel locks
>>> up with the key out).
>>>
>>> Thank God for my simple cars; I'd lose my mind with all of that madness.
>>> I get irritated enough hopping back into an automatic transmission car
>>> that has to be in "PARK" to remove the key, or "NEUTRAL" to start. Radio
>>> cuts off when you cut the key off; on when the key is on. Nice and simple!
>>
>>
>>
>> HOW OLD are YOU?
>
> He's a kid but drives his great-grandpappy's '38 DeSoto.

I wish! That would be awesome... I'll find myself a pre-war car one of
these days.

On 7/15/2021 10:30 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 7/15/2021 2:00 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>> On 7/14/2021 1:00 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> Have you ever parked, wanted to turn off the engine but continue
>>> listening to what's
>>> playing on the audio system? You have to leave the van in gear and
>>> press the Start/Stop
>>> button. The engine will shut off and the audio system will stay on
>>> (ACC mode). Now you
>>> can put the van in Park...if you remember.;-)
>>>
>>> How do you get out of ACC mode? You push the Start/Stop button again,
>>> which puts the
>>> van in Run mode (lamp test runs, relays click and clack, HVAC comes
>>> on, etc.) then press
>>> it again to shut the van off.
>>>
>>> Maybe all Push To Start vehicles act like that. This is my first one.
>>>
>>> I hate it because it's putting extra wear and tear on systems. I
>>> always let it come
>>> to steady state in Run mode because I don't want to turn it off
>>> midway through
>>> it's "start-up procedure". PITA just to use the ACC mode.
>>>
>>> That's just some of the weird stuff that the infotainment system
>>> does. Terrible
>>> design, coding, etc.
>>
>>
>> That's awful... I can cut the ignition key and throw the shifter into
>> neutral, and roll to a stop in a parking lot. Throw it back in gear,
>> and engage parking brake (if it works)... key out, and get moving.
>> Key can come out sooner if you're stopping in a straight line (wheel
>> locks up with the key out).
>>
>> Thank God for my simple cars; I'd lose my mind with all of that
>> madness. I get irritated enough hopping back into an automatic
>> transmission car that has to be in "PARK" to remove the key, or
>> "NEUTRAL" to start. Radio cuts off when you cut the key off; on when
>> the key is on. Nice and simple!
>
>
>
> HOW OLD are YOU?

26, but age doesn't matter. Simplicity is key! I also dislike
automatic transmissions. I know plenty of younger "car people" that
also prefer standard transmissions. It gives you more control, plain
and simple.

I drive to Geo Metro car meets twice per year; Minnesota in the Autumn,
and Florida in the spring. Most people that drive Metros are extremely
budget conscience, and will shut off the engine as soon as possible. It
was a running joke for a while with how light the cars are that if
someone has to move one a few feet, the instant reaction is to kick it
into neutral and push the little car a few feet, rather than adding a
hint of wear/tear with an unnecessary start or wasting an ounce or two
of fuel.

On 7/15/2021 2:53 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 03:11:03 -0400, Michael Trew<mt999999@ymail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/14/2021 12:20 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 11:34:08 -0400, Michael Trew<mt999999@ymail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/13/2021 5:01 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> Nahh. The damned thing has some piece of crap Microsoft electronic
>>>>> device built into it that makes it decide not to start at random
>>>>> intervals. Solution is to fish under the dash, pull a fuse, wait a
>>>>> minute, put the fuse back. And of course it won't run if I just pull
>>>>> the fuse out and leave it out.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's why I'm getting rid of it at my earliest convenience.
>>>>
>>>> I'll try not to get started on a car rant again, but stuff like that is
>>>> my reasoning for driving 90's and back vehicles. I like the old stuff
>>>> without computers and touch screens!
>>>
>>> No, I've never had wiring fail in old cars or door posts break off,
>>> then the bandaid (weld) attempting to put the humpty car back
>>> together, also failed within days. Fit and finish of those cars was
>>> *perfect* and they never rusted out before they were paid for (when a
>>> 36mo loan was long). Yep, the good ol' days.
>>
>>
>> I think you're referring to 70's cars. I've never seen one of my 90's
>> cars rust out that quickly.
>
> '90s cars didn't operate as you say yours do. Even back in the BT
> (before Trew) era, ignitions were locked out until the car was in PARK
> or the clutch depressed. Oh, and then there was the refusal to start
> as long as everyone in the front had their seat belt fastened. Federal
> DOT rules and all that.
>
>> BTW, my '75 Dart is still going strong!
>
> '75 Darts *never* went strong, even new.

Well, it's still *going*, how's that ;)

On 7/15/2021 5:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> And the programmming can
> be done by below-US-minimum-wage labor in India, so it's to the
> benefit of the manufacturer to do it that way.

Yes, cost is typically the root cause of changes. Whatever makes the
manufacturer more cash to swim in.

>
> The thing is the goverment is now requiring electronically controlled
> braking and electronic stability control among other things.

One of my many reasons for disliking new cars. If you are uneducated
and don't know how to properly "threshold brake" or handle a car in poor
conditions (eg: someone who mashes the brake pedal and prays for dear
life in a stressful situation), then yes, ESC and ABS are for you -- the
masses I presume. The other side to the situation, is that people who
know how to drive, can be very much hampered with ABS and these systems.
I'm glad that none of my cars have this stuff.

https://austonhensley.wordpress.com/2012/12/26/why-abs-is-dangerous-and-how-to-disable-it/

On 7/15/2021 10:41 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 7/15/2021 2:14 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>> On 7/14/2021 2:34 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 7/14/2021 10:34 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>> On 7/13/2021 5:01 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> Nahh. The damned thing has some piece of crap Microsoft electronic
>>>>> device built into it that makes it decide not to start at random
>>>>> intervals. Solution is to fish under the dash, pull a fuse, wait a
>>>>> minute, put the fuse back. And of course it won't run if I just pull
>>>>> the fuse out and leave it out.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's why I'm getting rid of it at my earliest convenience.
>>>>
>>>> I'll try not to get started on a car rant again, but stuff like that
>>>> is my reasoning for driving 90's and back vehicles. I like the old
>>>> stuff without computers and touch screens!
>>>
>>> You have to go back to the 70's to avoid computers.
>>>
>>> I will take the computers any day.
>>>
>>> In 1980 Oldsmobile introduced the ECM. Suddenly V6 engines were out
>>> performing v8's and getting better gas mileage.
>>
>> I didn't mean ignition control computers. I meant the crazy touch
>> screen every-single-simple-manual-control-is-microprocessor-controlled
>> madness. I like manual HVAC controls (you can feel the levers operate
>> as you pull/push switches), manual windows, throttle cable (not wire),
>> manual everything. Electronic spark control (or "ECM" more recently)
>> is fine.
>
> Sorry, when you said computers and touch screens I assumed you knew that
> the touch screen was not the only computer in a vehicle.
>
> Regardless nearly all electrical components, window regulator motors,
> door lock actuators, AC controllers to name a few all have a chip of
> some sort.
>
> Having been the service manager at an Olds dealership I can assure you
> that manual lever actuated controls had their issues too.
>
> So in the 80's GM's "ECM" was short for Electronic Control Module. That
> computer monitored every electrical function, including simple lighting.
> If your vehicle has a catalytic converter, most likely you have some
> type of processor to measure O2.
>
> If you have a vehicle built since 1980 you have electronics that you
> probably had no clue that they were there.
>

I probably sound like a broken record mentioning "geo metro" in almost
every other post, but I've torn one of these cars down to the bare
chassis. If it has a standard transmission, the only real "computer" is
the ECM. The A/C system is simply powered by a switch that goes to a
standard relay. Most of these systems that are "chip controlled" on
modern cars are controlled by simple relays on my Metros. The ECM
monitors the O2 sensor. I'm sure the OBD2 Metros (1996+) have some
additional computers -- but mine are all the old style '94 and back.

Of course, the Metro being a dead-simple basic style car, it isn't
surprise that it has all basic controls. I'm sure my '89 Olds wagon and
others do have some computer/chips that I'm not aware of. I'm not
counting the radio in any of my vehicles either. The climate controls
are vacuum controlled in my Oldsmobile, and there is a loose line
somewhere, because it's stuck on defrost. Of course, there are faults
in any system, but I like simple mechanical systems where at least I can
fix the fault myself (eg: stuck lever in the climate controls).

On 7/15/2021 4:59 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 03:18:33 -0400, Michael Trew<mt999999@ymail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/14/2021 7:04 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 11:34:08 -0400, Michael Trew<mt999999@ymail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/13/2021 5:01 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> Nahh. The damned thing has some piece of crap Microsoft electronic
>>>>> device built into it that makes it decide not to start at random
>>>>> intervals. Solution is to fish under the dash, pull a fuse, wait a
>>>>> minute, put the fuse back. And of course it won't run if I just pull
>>>>> the fuse out and leave it out.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's why I'm getting rid of it at my earliest convenience.
>>>>
>>>> I'll try not to get started on a car rant again, but stuff like that is
>>>> my reasoning for driving 90's and back vehicles. I like the old stuff
>>>> without computers and touch screens!
>>>
>>> In my case it worked out to a "free" commute--the payments on a used
>>> plug-in were less than the cost of gas for the Jeep. To tell you the
>>> truth though, when the thing is behaving it's nice enough that I'm
>>> seriously thinking about plonking down the cash for a Tesla.
>>
>> My friend has a mid 2000's Jeep with a V8 that gets 8 MPG in town. If
>> you drive a car like that, yes, I can see how it would save you money.
>>
>> Me, I'm content with driving my tin can early 90's Geo Metro, and
>> average 48 MPG (city AND highway) on every tank. I get over 50 MPG when
>> it's all highway. Yes, ECM controlled, but everything else is manual -
>> nary another computer or microprocessor to be found.
>>
>> Pay $500 for the car in one go, and you're set. I get better or equal
>> gas mileage to hybrid like the Prius. My entire car costs less than the
>> dealer charges to replace a head light assembly on a Prius.
>
> I forgot the part about where I get to charge it at work on the boss's
> dime.
>
>

Ah, well that's pretty cool, I must admit! There are a couple free
electric charging stations around here. I assume they will go away when
electric cars become more standard. There are a few near the food court
of a Pittsburgh mall sponsored by so-and-so.

On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 23:20:21 -0400, Michael Trew <mt999999@ymail.com>
wrote:

>On 7/15/2021 5:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> And the programmming can
>> be done by below-US-minimum-wage labor in India, so it's to the
>> benefit of the manufacturer to do it that way.
>
>Yes, cost is typically the root cause of changes. Whatever makes the
>manufacturer more cash to swim in.
>
>>
>> The thing is the goverment is now requiring electronically controlled
>> braking and electronic stability control among other things.
>
>One of my many reasons for disliking new cars. If you are uneducated
>and don't know how to properly "threshold brake" or handle a car in poor
>conditions (eg: someone who mashes the brake pedal and prays for dear
>life in a stressful situation), then yes, ESC and ABS are for you -- the
>masses I presume. The other side to the situation, is that people who
>know how to drive, can be very much hampered with ABS and these systems.
> I'm glad that none of my cars have this stuff.
>
>https://austonhensley.wordpress.com/2012/12/26/why-abs-is-dangerous-and-how-to-disable-it/

I think your article kind of misses the point. It says "practice in a
parking lot to learn threshold braking". Personally I have never had
ABS activate on a dry road unless I was deliberately setting out to
activate it. But many times I have had it kick in on an _apparently_
dry road where there was oil, residual moisture, or black ice present
that I could not have detected other than by locking up and starting
to skid.

On 7/17/2021 10:03 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
> On 7/15/2021 5:59 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 3:04:21 AM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:
>>> On 7/14/2021 6:41 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> Well, I used to push my '67 dodge pickup to start it, so long as I
>>>> remembered
>>>> to park facing downslope.
>>> HAHA, that's a good one. I've gone 3 months on a battery that was bad
>>> enough that it had to be push started every time.
>>>
>>> I have a push-button start car now... the key in my '93 Metro doesn't do
>>> anything when you turn it all the way, so you have to push this fancy
>>> button hacked into the dash board to kick the ignition solenoid on.
>>> Don't bump it when the engine's running, or you'll shear the teeth off
>>> of the flywheel -- or the gears off of the starter - maybe both.
>>
>> Your mention of shearing teeth reminds me of my 66 Rambler Ambassador.
>>
>> That car needed some dental work on the flywheel and sometimes screeched
>> when I tried to start it. Each  "screech" would move the flywheel a
>> little bit and
>> the starter would eventually grab enough good teeth to start. 2 - 3
>> screeches at
>> most. ;-)
>>
>> But what I was really reminded of was the "switch" I installed for the
>> sound system.
>> The AM radio in a 66 Rambler Ambassador was not the type that could be
>> replaced
>> with an aftermarket AM/FM radio  because of the vertical mounting
>> layout of the
>> factory radio. Tall and shallow vs. short and deep like most radios.
>>
>> https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/313568843276_/1966-AMC-Rambler-Ambassador-AM-Pushbutton-Radio-w.jpg
>>
>>
>> So I hung one of those FM Radio/Cassette Players under the dash and
>> used a big
>> toggle switch to swap the 4 speakers from the OEM AM radio to the
>> FM/Cassette unit.
>>
>> https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-pioneer-kp-500-dash-cassette-28144815
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> If enough teeth break off, it won't be able to catch at a certain point
> on the flywheel at all.  I have a couple missing teeth on my '89 Olds
> Wagon.  It doesn't prevent it from starting, but it's sometimes noisy
> when starting.

Oddly It can only be one tooth on the flywheel/flexplate that can
prevent the starter from properly engaging. My BIL's Mustang had 1
broken tooth and it seemed to be in alignment to not engage almost all
of the time. I suspect where the compression stroke stops the engine
from turning may have been how that happened. Apparently it happened
quite often as that particular tooth probably took the brunt of the
bendex engaging.