DerbyDad03 <teamarrows@eznet.net> writes:
>On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 10:49:04 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>> On 7/18/2021 8:05 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
>> > On 7/18/2021 10:07 AM, Leon wrote:
>> >> If those conditions give you anxiety you really should drive something
>> >> more dependable.
>> >> Anxiety will kill you.
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm not in traffic too often, maybe call if a very lose form of "shell
>> > shock"... it's happened enough times, that I just prefer when the car is
>> > moving vs. stopped waiting... lol
>> Understood but your experience is with unreliable vehicles. I live in
>> the Houston area. Traffic is heavy just outside of my drive way. Well
>> maybe not that bad, but I don't give being stranded a second thought.
>
>I moved out of NYC 40 years ago. The #1 reason was the traffic. #2
>was parking. #3 was the overcrowding.
>
>I remember the early days when I would drive back "home". 5 hours to
>complete 90% of the ride, another 1.5 hours to complete the last 10%.
>Reverse that on the way out of town. 40 years ago. I can only imagine
>what it's like now.

I used to regularly drive from Newark to Springfield Ma without
substantial delays; I suppose the Holland Tunnel can get congested,
but it wasn't so bad back in the 90's when I was there.

On 7/19/2021 2:58 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> DerbyDad03 <teamarrows@eznet.net> writes:
>> On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 10:49:04 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>>> On 7/18/2021 8:05 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>> On 7/18/2021 10:07 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> If those conditions give you anxiety you really should drive something
>>>>> more dependable.
>>>>> Anxiety will kill you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not in traffic too often, maybe call if a very lose form of "shell
>>>> shock"... it's happened enough times, that I just prefer when the car is
>>>> moving vs. stopped waiting... lol
>>> Understood but your experience is with unreliable vehicles. I live in
>>> the Houston area. Traffic is heavy just outside of my drive way. Well
>>> maybe not that bad, but I don't give being stranded a second thought.
>>
>> I moved out of NYC 40 years ago. The #1 reason was the traffic. #2
>> was parking. #3 was the overcrowding.
>>
>> I remember the early days when I would drive back "home". 5 hours to
>> complete 90% of the ride, another 1.5 hours to complete the last 10%.
>> Reverse that on the way out of town. 40 years ago. I can only imagine
>> what it's like now.
>
> I used to regularly drive from Newark to Springfield Ma without
> substantial delays; I suppose the Holland Tunnel can get congested,
> but it wasn't so bad back in the 90's when I was there.
>

What is substantial?
I've been stuck on the GW at 10PM, midnight, many other times. Mostly
avoided the Cross Bronx for the same reason. Early Sunday morning was
not too bad but Sunday night could be a mess. especially in the summer.
Tappan Zee not much better.

On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 10:37:10 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 7/19/2021 2:58 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> > DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> writes:
> >> On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 10:49:04 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> >>> On 7/18/2021 8:05 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
> >>>> On 7/18/2021 10:07 AM, Leon wrote:
> >>>>> If those conditions give you anxiety you really should drive something
> >>>>> more dependable.
> >>>>> Anxiety will kill you.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not in traffic too often, maybe call if a very lose form of "shell
> >>>> shock"... it's happened enough times, that I just prefer when the car is
> >>>> moving vs. stopped waiting... lol
> >>> Understood but your experience is with unreliable vehicles. I live in
> >>> the Houston area. Traffic is heavy just outside of my drive way. Well
> >>> maybe not that bad, but I don't give being stranded a second thought.
> >>
> >> I moved out of NYC 40 years ago. The #1 reason was the traffic. #2
> >> was parking. #3 was the overcrowding.
> >>
> >> I remember the early days when I would drive back "home". 5 hours to
> >> complete 90% of the ride, another 1.5 hours to complete the last 10%.
> >> Reverse that on the way out of town. 40 years ago. I can only imagine
> >> what it's like now.
> >
> > I used to regularly drive from Newark to Springfield Ma without
> > substantial delays; I suppose the Holland Tunnel can get congested,
> > but it wasn't so bad back in the 90's when I was there.
> >
> What is substantial?
> I've been stuck on the GW at 10PM, midnight, many other times. Mostly
> avoided the Cross Bronx for the same reason. Early Sunday morning was
> not too bad but Sunday night could be a mess. especially in the summer.
> Tappan Zee not much better.

As a kid, we'd leave for Jones Beach at 6 AM. Breakfast cooked on the grill
at one of the picnic areas then a few hours on the beach until the crowds
showed up.

On the way home, we'd head west, back towards the city, on the LIE. We'd
look across the divider and see three lanes of bumper to bumper traffic
s l o w l y inching its way to the beach. Later in the day, they'd all be sitting in
bumper to bumper traffic on the way home. Meanwhile, we'd be relaxing and
watching the Mets game.

No more of that for me. My 12 minute commute stretches to 20 minutes on
the worst of days. The beach (a lake) is a 10 minute drive. Sometimes we walk.

Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> writes:
>On 7/19/2021 2:58 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> DerbyDad03 <teamarrows@eznet.net> writes:
>>> On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 10:49:04 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 7/18/2021 8:05 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>>> On 7/18/2021 10:07 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>> If those conditions give you anxiety you really should drive something
>>>>>> more dependable.
>>>>>> Anxiety will kill you.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not in traffic too often, maybe call if a very lose form of "shell
>>>>> shock"... it's happened enough times, that I just prefer when the car is
>>>>> moving vs. stopped waiting... lol
>>>> Understood but your experience is with unreliable vehicles. I live in
>>>> the Houston area. Traffic is heavy just outside of my drive way. Well
>>>> maybe not that bad, but I don't give being stranded a second thought.
>>>
>>> I moved out of NYC 40 years ago. The #1 reason was the traffic. #2
>>> was parking. #3 was the overcrowding.
>>>
>>> I remember the early days when I would drive back "home". 5 hours to
>>> complete 90% of the ride, another 1.5 hours to complete the last 10%.
>>> Reverse that on the way out of town. 40 years ago. I can only imagine
>>> what it's like now.
>>
>> I used to regularly drive from Newark to Springfield Ma without
>> substantial delays; I suppose the Holland Tunnel can get congested,
>> but it wasn't so bad back in the 90's when I was there.
>>
>
>What is substantial?

No significant delays across the TZ or up the sawmill pkwy. I
usually left Summit NJ mid-afternoon on Fridays.

On 7/20/21 6:53 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> writes:
>> On 7/19/2021 2:58 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> DerbyDad03 <teamarrows@eznet.net> writes:
>>>> On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 10:49:04 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 7/18/2021 8:05 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/18/2021 10:07 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>> If those conditions give you anxiety you really should drive something
>>>>>>> more dependable.
>>>>>>> Anxiety will kill you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not in traffic too often, maybe call if a very lose form of "shell
>>>>>> shock"... it's happened enough times, that I just prefer when the car is
>>>>>> moving vs. stopped waiting... lol
>>>>> Understood but your experience is with unreliable vehicles. I live in
>>>>> the Houston area. Traffic is heavy just outside of my drive way. Well
>>>>> maybe not that bad, but I don't give being stranded a second thought.
>>>>
>>>> I moved out of NYC 40 years ago. The #1 reason was the traffic. #2
>>>> was parking. #3 was the overcrowding.
>>>>
>>>> I remember the early days when I would drive back "home". 5 hours to
>>>> complete 90% of the ride, another 1.5 hours to complete the last 10%.
>>>> Reverse that on the way out of town. 40 years ago. I can only imagine
>>>> what it's like now.
>>>
>>> I used to regularly drive from Newark to Springfield Ma without
>>> substantial delays; I suppose the Holland Tunnel can get congested,
>>> but it wasn't so bad back in the 90's when I was there.
>>>
>>
>> What is substantial?
>
> No significant delays across the TZ or up the sawmill pkwy. I
> usually left Summit NJ mid-afternoon on Fridays.

What is 'significant?'

On 7/19/2021 1:27 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 10:49:04 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>> On 7/18/2021 8:05 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>> On 7/18/2021 10:07 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> If those conditions give you anxiety you really should drive something
>>>> more dependable.
>>>> Anxiety will kill you.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not in traffic too often, maybe call if a very lose form of "shell
>>> shock"... it's happened enough times, that I just prefer when the car is
>>> moving vs. stopped waiting... lol
>> Understood but your experience is with unreliable vehicles. I live in
>> the Houston area. Traffic is heavy just outside of my drive way. Well
>> maybe not that bad, but I don't give being stranded a second thought.
>
> I moved out of NYC 40 years ago. The #1 reason was the traffic. #2
> was parking. #3 was the overcrowding.
>
> I remember the early days when I would drive back "home". 5 hours to
> complete 90% of the ride, another 1.5 hours to complete the last 10%.
> Reverse that on the way out of town. 40 years ago. I can only imagine
> what it's like now.
>
> And don't say I just didn't time it right. The majority of the time, night
> or day, it's bad. Many times it's worse.

When I have to drive past Chicago, I try to do it early morning only.
1-3 AM... there is literally traffic any other time of day, including
Sundays.

On 7/19/2021 10:48 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 7/18/2021 8:05 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
>> On 7/18/2021 10:07 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> If those conditions give you anxiety you really should drive something
>>> more dependable.
>>> Anxiety will kill you.
>>
>>
>> I'm not in traffic too often, maybe call if a very lose form of "shell
>> shock"... it's happened enough times, that I just prefer when the car
>> is moving vs. stopped waiting... lol
>
>
> Understood but your experience is with unreliable vehicles. I live in
> the Houston area. Traffic is heavy just outside of my drive way. Well
> maybe not that bad, but I don't give being stranded a second thought.

That doesn't sound fun. I hate Pittsburgh traffic, I could only imagine
Huston.

On 7/19/2021 10:56 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 7/18/2021 10:35 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 7/18/2021 9:13 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>> On 7/18/2021 2:04 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>> Last stick shift I had I sold in 1978. At the time I was 33. Driving
>>>> stick was a bit more fun at times but the fun factor gets less every
>>>> year. Last one I drove was about 15 years ago, a rental in Italy.
>>>
>>>
>>> I've heard that most European countries still have more standard
>>> transmissions than automatics, but I'm sure that will change with time.
>>>
>>> I've heard a story similar to yours from many people, as they age
>>> they just don't care to shift anymore. I'm sure that in my 70's I'll
>>> likely feel different than today.
>>
>> Many of the small cars had little power and the old automatics really
>> killed any performance.
>>
>> I'm not adverse to driving a stick once in a while, just don't want it
>> for my daily driver.
>
>
> LOL that comment, small cars had little power, reminded my of when "The
> Smart" car was introduced on the Today show.
>
> Mat Lauer asked the rep about relatively poor gas mileage for such a
> small car. IIRC the car got a bit over 40 MPG.
>
> The rep responded that they wanted to focus more on the performance and
> sacrificed gas mileage for more HP. IIRC the HP was around 46.
>
> To put that into perspective, My son drove a much larger Chevy Cavalier.
> More than twice the HP, possibly triple, and got about 36 MPG.
>

I could go on about those horrible "smart cars"... the *BEST* part is,
that they take premium fuel! So in practice, that gas mileage is even
worse... well, more expensive fuel than other cars. They would have
been sportier as a manual, but they didn't offer that in the US. The
factory warranty was only 2 yrs/24k miles I believe; Fiat quality...
heh. I'll surely take a Cavalier sooner.

I never understood them either, unless you live in a very tiny European
city. My Geo Metros get 55 HP with 50 MPG average, maybe 45 in the
city. The only thing the "smart car" has on them would be likely
holding up better in an accident. That issue is a mute point, however,
if you are only driving it around town in a small city.

On 7/18/2021 11:35 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> Many of the small cars had little power and the old automatics really
> killed any performance.

I can surely agree with you there, old automatics are bad. In it's day,
my Dart was quite a small car - but it looks big for today's standards.
I've talked to people that drag race these old Darts, and "trick out"
the slant 6's... however, with the 3 speed torqueflite, while it is a
solid transmission, it's kind of gutless paired with the engine. I have
to downshift a lot manually. I'd get better performance with a 3 on the
column, and it would be really snappy with a 4 on the floor.

On 7/19/2021 10:49 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 7/18/2021 8:13 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
>> On 7/18/2021 2:04 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> Last stick shift I had I sold in 1978. At the time I was 33. Driving
>>> stick was a bit more fun at times but the fun factor gets less every
>>> year. Last one I drove was about 15 years ago, a rental in Italy.
>>
>>
>> I've heard that most European countries still have more standard
>> transmissions than automatics, but I'm sure that will change with time.
>>
>> I've heard a story similar to yours from many people, as they age they
>> just don't care to shift anymore. I'm sure that in my 70's I'll
>> likely feel different than today.
>
>
> Don't like shifting and replacing clutches. :!)

I rarely keep a car long enough to replace a clutch, but I've done it
before. It's a project for sure!

On 7/19/2021 11:10 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 7/18/2021 8:11 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
>> On 7/18/2021 10:26 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> The automatic transmission comment above further proves that you simply
>>> do not know.
>>> Your statement was maybe more true 30+ years ago than now. My son
>>> insisted on a standard shift for his first car. So we bough him a
>>> Cavalier with manual transmission. The next car that he bought, at
>>> about your age, was an automatic. Standard shift requires more driver
>>> input, when I was young, that was "fun" and better than an automatic,
>>> but that was 50 years ago. At about your age I went with the less
>>> trouble automatics. FWIW my son worked at a Chevy dealership while in
>>> school and I retired from the auto industry at 40. So I have some hands
>>> on experience in HS and college. Today's automatic transmissions mob
>>> the floor with manuels. Both in life span and performance.
>>
>>
>> I'm not ignorant, I'm well aware that they have developed automatic
>> transmissions that are far more efficient than manuals. In the cars
>> that I can drive and afford, standards still win, especially since era
>> autos were mostly 3 speed, and some you almost have to floor to get
>> them to downshift.
>>
>> Personally, as you said, my main point is that I prefer the "drive
>> input" aspect. I'm a control freak, but more over, I am one of those
>> people that really enjoy driving, and an automatic sucks the fun out
>> of it and makes the experience boring.
>
>
> Understood, I was in the camp one time too. That said, the newer, and
> especially dual clutch auto transmissions also out perform manual
> transmissions as well as being more efficient.
>
> The latest Corvette for instance does 0-60 in 2.9 seconds. Top speed,
> 194 MPH. It is only available with a dual clutch auto trans mission.
>
> Today I look at most manual transmission vehicles as being entry level
> "engineering", regardless of the quality vehicle.
>
> Like a car with manually operated windows vs. electric.

That seems to be how the car sector feels; you can only find a standard
in the most base model cars, or a select few high-end cars. If I recall
correctly, no one in the US makes a truck with a standard transmission
anymore. Maybe the Toyota Tacoma; I think that's it. What's left of
standards, I'm sure the electric car phase with wipe out.

I must say that if I had a Corvette or sporty car, maximum speed and
efficiency be damned, I won't have fun unless it was a standard. I feel
like it should be an option for sports car enthusiasts. Then again, I'm
sure they'd still offer it enough people bought it... you have to go
with what the market demands.

On 7/19/2021 11:14 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 7/18/2021 8:21 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
>> On 7/18/2021 8:25 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 23:20:21 -0400, Michael Trew<mt999999@ymail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/15/2021 5:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> And the programmming can
>>>>> be done by below-US-minimum-wage labor in India, so it's to the
>>>>> benefit of the manufacturer to do it that way.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, cost is typically the root cause of changes. Whatever makes the
>>>> manufacturer more cash to swim in.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The thing is the goverment is now requiring electronically controlled
>>>>> braking and electronic stability control among other things.
>>>>
>>>> One of my many reasons for disliking new cars. If you are uneducated
>>>> and don't know how to properly "threshold brake" or handle a car in
>>>> poor
>>>> conditions (eg: someone who mashes the brake pedal and prays for dear
>>>> life in a stressful situation), then yes, ESC and ABS are for you --
>>>> the
>>>> masses I presume. The other side to the situation, is that people who
>>>> know how to drive, can be very much hampered with ABS and these
>>>> systems.
>>>> I'm glad that none of my cars have this stuff.
>>>>
>>>> https://austonhensley.wordpress.com/2012/12/26/why-abs-is-dangerous-and-how-to-disable-it/
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think your article kind of misses the point. It says "practice in a
>>> parking lot to learn threshold braking". Personally I have never had
>>> ABS activate on a dry road unless I was deliberately setting out to
>>> activate it. But many times I have had it kick in on an _apparently_
>>> dry road where there was oil, residual moisture, or black ice present
>>> that I could not have detected other than by locking up and starting
>>> to skid.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Honestly, I can't remember the last vehicle that I owned with
>> *working* ABS or even ABS at all... it's been years; I'm not sure that
>> I recall what it feels like working.
>
>
> It sounds like a fast thumping sound coming from the corner of the
> vehicle that is having issues and from the unit under the hood
> activating the anti lock. And many times the brake pedal seems to be
> going a little further down than what you are use to feeling when the
> ABS is not activated. Oh, and the vehicle continues to go where you
> would expect.

Does it engage often? My first thought would be a flat tire if I
head/felt a "fast thumping sound".

When the brake pedal "goes down further than I'd expect", that's when I
panic and downshift or get ready for the e-brake... that would take some
getting used to. I've had a brake line go out driving down a hill not
often, but just enough times... not fun.

On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:55:37 -0400, Michael Trew <mt999999@ymail.com>
wrote:

>On 7/19/2021 11:10 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 7/18/2021 8:11 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>> On 7/18/2021 10:26 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> The automatic transmission comment above further proves that you simply
>>>> do not know.
>>>> Your statement was maybe more true 30+ years ago than now. My son
>>>> insisted on a standard shift for his first car. So we bough him a
>>>> Cavalier with manual transmission. The next car that he bought, at
>>>> about your age, was an automatic. Standard shift requires more driver
>>>> input, when I was young, that was "fun" and better than an automatic,
>>>> but that was 50 years ago. At about your age I went with the less
>>>> trouble automatics. FWIW my son worked at a Chevy dealership while in
>>>> school and I retired from the auto industry at 40. So I have some hands
>>>> on experience in HS and college. Today's automatic transmissions mob
>>>> the floor with manuels. Both in life span and performance.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not ignorant, I'm well aware that they have developed automatic
>>> transmissions that are far more efficient than manuals. In the cars
>>> that I can drive and afford, standards still win, especially since era
>>> autos were mostly 3 speed, and some you almost have to floor to get
>>> them to downshift.
>>>
>>> Personally, as you said, my main point is that I prefer the "drive
>>> input" aspect. I'm a control freak, but more over, I am one of those
>>> people that really enjoy driving, and an automatic sucks the fun out
>>> of it and makes the experience boring.
>>
>>
>> Understood, I was in the camp one time too. That said, the newer, and
>> especially dual clutch auto transmissions also out perform manual
>> transmissions as well as being more efficient.
>>
>> The latest Corvette for instance does 0-60 in 2.9 seconds. Top speed,
>> 194 MPH. It is only available with a dual clutch auto trans mission.
>>
>> Today I look at most manual transmission vehicles as being entry level
>> "engineering", regardless of the quality vehicle.
>>
>> Like a car with manually operated windows vs. electric.
>
>That seems to be how the car sector feels; you can only find a standard
>in the most base model cars, or a select few high-end cars. If I recall
>correctly, no one in the US makes a truck with a standard transmission
>anymore. Maybe the Toyota Tacoma; I think that's it. What's left of
>standards, I'm sure the electric car phase with wipe out.
>
>I must say that if I had a Corvette or sporty car, maximum speed and
>efficiency be damned, I won't have fun unless it was a standard. I feel
>like it should be an option for sports car enthusiasts. Then again, I'm
>sure they'd still offer it enough people bought it... you have to go
>with what the market demands.

The C8 mid engine Corvette comes with a dual clutch auto, which you
can paddle shift.

On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:47:33 -0400, Michael Trew <mt999999@ymail.com>
wrote:

>On 7/19/2021 10:56 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 7/18/2021 10:35 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> On 7/18/2021 9:13 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>> On 7/18/2021 2:04 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>> Last stick shift I had I sold in 1978. At the time I was 33. Driving
>>>>> stick was a bit more fun at times but the fun factor gets less every
>>>>> year. Last one I drove was about 15 years ago, a rental in Italy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've heard that most European countries still have more standard
>>>> transmissions than automatics, but I'm sure that will change with time.
>>>>
>>>> I've heard a story similar to yours from many people, as they age
>>>> they just don't care to shift anymore. I'm sure that in my 70's I'll
>>>> likely feel different than today.
>>>
>>> Many of the small cars had little power and the old automatics really
>>> killed any performance.
>>>
>>> I'm not adverse to driving a stick once in a while, just don't want it
>>> for my daily driver.
>>
>>
>> LOL that comment, small cars had little power, reminded my of when "The
>> Smart" car was introduced on the Today show.
>>
>> Mat Lauer asked the rep about relatively poor gas mileage for such a
>> small car. IIRC the car got a bit over 40 MPG.
>>
>> The rep responded that they wanted to focus more on the performance and
>> sacrificed gas mileage for more HP. IIRC the HP was around 46.
>>
>> To put that into perspective, My son drove a much larger Chevy Cavalier.
>> More than twice the HP, possibly triple, and got about 36 MPG.
>>
>
>I could go on about those horrible "smart cars"... the *BEST* part is,
>that they take premium fuel! So in practice, that gas mileage is even
>worse... well, more expensive fuel than other cars. They would have
>been sportier as a manual, but they didn't offer that in the US. The
>factory warranty was only 2 yrs/24k miles I believe; Fiat quality...
>heh. I'll surely take a Cavalier sooner.
>
>I never understood them either, unless you live in a very tiny European
>city. My Geo Metros get 55 HP with 50 MPG average, maybe 45 in the
>city. The only thing the "smart car" has on them would be likely
>holding up better in an accident. That issue is a mute point, however,
>if you are only driving it around town in a small city.

Single-car accident maybe.

Saw an ad once demonstrating the crash-safety of Volkswagens. A
Volkswagen was sitting on top of a very flat Cadillac. The Volkswagen
was a 40 ton main battle tank.

On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:55:37 -0400, Michael Trew <mt999999@ymail.com>
wrote:

>On 7/19/2021 11:10 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 7/18/2021 8:11 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>> On 7/18/2021 10:26 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> The automatic transmission comment above further proves that you simply
>>>> do not know.
>>>> Your statement was maybe more true 30+ years ago than now. My son
>>>> insisted on a standard shift for his first car. So we bough him a
>>>> Cavalier with manual transmission. The next car that he bought, at
>>>> about your age, was an automatic. Standard shift requires more driver
>>>> input, when I was young, that was "fun" and better than an automatic,
>>>> but that was 50 years ago. At about your age I went with the less
>>>> trouble automatics. FWIW my son worked at a Chevy dealership while in
>>>> school and I retired from the auto industry at 40. So I have some hands
>>>> on experience in HS and college. Today's automatic transmissions mob
>>>> the floor with manuels. Both in life span and performance.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not ignorant, I'm well aware that they have developed automatic
>>> transmissions that are far more efficient than manuals. In the cars
>>> that I can drive and afford, standards still win, especially since era
>>> autos were mostly 3 speed, and some you almost have to floor to get
>>> them to downshift.
>>>
>>> Personally, as you said, my main point is that I prefer the "drive
>>> input" aspect. I'm a control freak, but more over, I am one of those
>>> people that really enjoy driving, and an automatic sucks the fun out
>>> of it and makes the experience boring.
>>
>>
>> Understood, I was in the camp one time too. That said, the newer, and
>> especially dual clutch auto transmissions also out perform manual
>> transmissions as well as being more efficient.
>>
>> The latest Corvette for instance does 0-60 in 2.9 seconds. Top speed,
>> 194 MPH. It is only available with a dual clutch auto trans mission.
>>
>> Today I look at most manual transmission vehicles as being entry level
>> "engineering", regardless of the quality vehicle.
>>
>> Like a car with manually operated windows vs. electric.
>
>That seems to be how the car sector feels; you can only find a standard
>in the most base model cars, or a select few high-end cars. If I recall
>correctly, no one in the US makes a truck with a standard transmission
>anymore. Maybe the Toyota Tacoma; I think that's it. What's left of
>standards, I'm sure the electric car phase with wipe out.
>
>I must say that if I had a Corvette or sporty car, maximum speed and
>efficiency be damned, I won't have fun unless it was a standard.

You can't get a standard in a new Corvette. The dual-clutch auto
shifts faster than any manual can.

>I feel
>like it should be an option for sports car enthusiasts. Then again, I'm
>sure they'd still offer it enough people bought it... you have to go
>with what the market demands.

On 7/20/2021 9:58 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
> On 7/19/2021 11:14 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 7/18/2021 8:21 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>> On 7/18/2021 8:25 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 23:20:21 -0400, Michael Trew<mt999999@ymail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/15/2021 5:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>> And the programmming can
>>>>>> be done by below-US-minimum-wage labor in India, so it's to the
>>>>>> benefit of the manufacturer to do it that way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, cost is typically the root cause of changes.  Whatever makes the
>>>>> manufacturer more cash to swim in.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The thing is the goverment is now requiring electronically controlled
>>>>>> braking and electronic stability control among other things.
>>>>>
>>>>> One of my many reasons for disliking new cars.  If you are uneducated
>>>>> and don't know how to properly "threshold brake" or handle a car in
>>>>> poor
>>>>> conditions (eg: someone who mashes the brake pedal and prays for dear
>>>>> life in a stressful situation), then yes, ESC and ABS are for you --
>>>>> the
>>>>> masses I presume.  The other side to the situation, is that people who
>>>>> know how to drive, can be very much hampered with ABS and these
>>>>> systems.
>>>>>   I'm glad that none of my cars have this stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://austonhensley.wordpress.com/2012/12/26/why-abs-is-dangerous-and-how-to-disable-it/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think your article kind of misses the point.  It says "practice in a
>>>> parking lot to learn threshold braking".  Personally I have never had
>>>> ABS activate on a dry road unless I was deliberately setting out to
>>>> activate it.  But many times I have had it kick in on an _apparently_
>>>> dry road where there was oil, residual moisture, or black ice present
>>>> that I could not have detected other than by locking up and starting
>>>> to skid.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Honestly, I can't remember the last vehicle that I owned with
>>> *working* ABS or even ABS at all... it's been years; I'm not sure that
>>> I recall what it feels like working.
>>
>>
>> It sounds like a fast thumping sound coming from the corner of the
>> vehicle that is having issues and from the unit under the hood
>> activating the anti lock. And many times the brake pedal seems to be
>> going a little further down than what you are use to feeling when the
>> ABS is not activated. Oh, and the vehicle continues to go where you
>> would expect.
>
> Does it engage often?  My first thought would be a flat tire if I
> head/felt a "fast thumping sound".

Hardly ever. I rcall it happening on my 07 Tundra 3~4 times over 13
tears. My 19 F150, maybe once in 23 months.

>
> When the brake pedal "goes down further than I'd expect", that's when I
> panic and downshift or get ready for the e-brake... that would take some
> getting used to.  I've had a brake line go out driving down a hill not
> often, but just enough times... not fun.

It all happens so quickly you really don't have tome to react. It is
over in a split second. Then every thing returns to normal. It does
not stay engaged past all wheels rotating as they should.

On 7/20/2021 9:55 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
> On 7/19/2021 11:10 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 7/18/2021 8:11 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>> On 7/18/2021 10:26 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> The automatic transmission comment above further proves that you simply
>>>> do not know.
>>>> Your statement was maybe more true 30+ years ago than now.  My son
>>>> insisted on a standard shift for his first car.  So we bough him a
>>>> Cavalier with manual transmission.   The next car that he bought, at
>>>> about your age, was an automatic.  Standard shift requires more driver
>>>> input, when I was young, that was "fun" and better than an automatic,
>>>> but that was 50 years ago.  At about your age I went with the less
>>>> trouble automatics.  FWIW my son worked at a Chevy dealership while in
>>>> school and I retired from the auto industry at 40.  So I have some
>>>> hands
>>>> on experience in HS and college.  Today's automatic transmissions mob
>>>> the floor with manuels.  Both in life span and performance.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not ignorant, I'm well aware that they have developed automatic
>>> transmissions that are far more efficient than manuals.  In the cars
>>> that I can drive and afford, standards still win, especially since era
>>> autos were mostly 3 speed, and some you almost have to floor to get
>>> them to downshift.
>>>
>>> Personally, as you said, my main point is that I prefer the "drive
>>> input" aspect.  I'm a control freak, but more over, I am one of those
>>> people that really enjoy driving, and an automatic sucks the fun out
>>> of it and makes the experience boring.
>>
>>
>> Understood, I was in the camp one time too. That said, the newer, and
>> especially dual clutch auto transmissions also out perform manual
>> transmissions as well as being more efficient.
>>
>> The latest Corvette for instance does 0-60 in 2.9 seconds. Top speed,
>> 194 MPH. It is only available with a dual clutch auto trans mission.
>>
>> Today I look at most manual transmission vehicles as being entry level
>> "engineering", regardless of the quality vehicle.
>>
>> Like a car with manually operated windows vs. electric.
>
> That seems to be how the car sector feels; you can only find a standard
> in the most base model cars, or a select few high-end cars.  If I recall
> correctly, no one in the US makes a truck with a standard transmission
> anymore.  Maybe the Toyota Tacoma; I think that's it.  What's left of
> standards, I'm sure the electric car phase with wipe out.

Manufacturers respond to what the buyers want.

>
> I must say that if I had a Corvette or sporty car, maximum speed and
> efficiency be damned, I won't have fun unless it was a standard.  I feel
> like it should be an option for sports car enthusiasts.  Then again, I'm
> sure they'd still offer it enough people bought it... you have to go
> with what the market demands.

Yes. But time and again, today's automatics out perform manual
transmissions in every respect.

On 7/20/2021 10:40 AM, Markem618 wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:55:37 -0400, Michael Trew <mt999999@ymail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/19/2021 11:10 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 7/18/2021 8:11 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>> On 7/18/2021 10:26 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> The automatic transmission comment above further proves that you simply
>>>>> do not know.
>>>>> Your statement was maybe more true 30+ years ago than now. My son
>>>>> insisted on a standard shift for his first car. So we bough him a
>>>>> Cavalier with manual transmission. The next car that he bought, at
>>>>> about your age, was an automatic. Standard shift requires more driver
>>>>> input, when I was young, that was "fun" and better than an automatic,
>>>>> but that was 50 years ago. At about your age I went with the less
>>>>> trouble automatics. FWIW my son worked at a Chevy dealership while in
>>>>> school and I retired from the auto industry at 40. So I have some hands
>>>>> on experience in HS and college. Today's automatic transmissions mob
>>>>> the floor with manuels. Both in life span and performance.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not ignorant, I'm well aware that they have developed automatic
>>>> transmissions that are far more efficient than manuals. In the cars
>>>> that I can drive and afford, standards still win, especially since era
>>>> autos were mostly 3 speed, and some you almost have to floor to get
>>>> them to downshift.
>>>>
>>>> Personally, as you said, my main point is that I prefer the "drive
>>>> input" aspect. I'm a control freak, but more over, I am one of those
>>>> people that really enjoy driving, and an automatic sucks the fun out
>>>> of it and makes the experience boring.
>>>
>>>
>>> Understood, I was in the camp one time too. That said, the newer, and
>>> especially dual clutch auto transmissions also out perform manual
>>> transmissions as well as being more efficient.
>>>
>>> The latest Corvette for instance does 0-60 in 2.9 seconds. Top speed,
>>> 194 MPH. It is only available with a dual clutch auto trans mission.
>>>
>>> Today I look at most manual transmission vehicles as being entry level
>>> "engineering", regardless of the quality vehicle.
>>>
>>> Like a car with manually operated windows vs. electric.
>>
>> That seems to be how the car sector feels; you can only find a standard
>> in the most base model cars, or a select few high-end cars. If I recall
>> correctly, no one in the US makes a truck with a standard transmission
>> anymore. Maybe the Toyota Tacoma; I think that's it. What's left of
>> standards, I'm sure the electric car phase with wipe out.
>>
>> I must say that if I had a Corvette or sporty car, maximum speed and
>> efficiency be damned, I won't have fun unless it was a standard. I feel
>> like it should be an option for sports car enthusiasts. Then again, I'm
>> sure they'd still offer it enough people bought it... you have to go
>> with what the market demands.
>
> The C8 mid engine Corvette comes with a dual clutch auto, which you
> can paddle shift.
>

LOL, my wife's 2012 Camry ES V6 has paddle shifters! And it has humbled
my son's 84 Corvette on the freeway.

On 7/20/2021 9:47 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
> On 7/19/2021 10:56 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 7/18/2021 10:35 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> On 7/18/2021 9:13 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>> On 7/18/2021 2:04 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>> Last stick shift I had I sold in 1978.  At the time I was 33.  Driving
>>>>> stick was a bit more fun at times but the fun factor gets less every
>>>>> year.  Last one I drove was about 15 years ago, a rental in Italy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've heard that most European countries still have more standard
>>>> transmissions than automatics, but I'm sure that will change with time.
>>>>
>>>> I've heard a story similar to yours from many people, as they age
>>>> they just don't care to shift anymore.  I'm sure that in my 70's I'll
>>>> likely feel different than today.
>>>
>>> Many of the small cars had little power and the old automatics really
>>> killed any performance.
>>>
>>> I'm not adverse to driving a stick once in a while, just don't want it
>>> for my daily driver.
>>
>>
>> LOL that comment, small cars had little power, reminded my of when "The
>> Smart" car was introduced on the Today show.
>>
>> Mat Lauer asked the rep about relatively poor gas mileage for such a
>> small car. IIRC the car got a bit over 40 MPG.
>>
>> The rep responded that they wanted to focus more on the performance and
>> sacrificed gas mileage for more HP. IIRC the HP was around 46.
>>
>> To put that into perspective, My son drove a much larger Chevy Cavalier.
>> More than twice the HP, possibly triple, and got about 36 MPG.
>>
>
> I could go on about those horrible "smart cars"... the *BEST* part is,
> that they take premium fuel!

That thing requires premium fuel??? I guess with all that HP, 46,
LOL.... I guess you would need premium if the 46 HP was coming from 1/2
of a cylinder.

So in practice, that gas mileage is even
> worse... well, more expensive fuel than other cars.  They would have
> been sportier as a manual, but they didn't offer that in the US.  The
> factory warranty was only 2 yrs/24k miles I believe; Fiat quality...
> heh.  I'll surely take a Cavalier sooner.

His Cavalier lasted about 146K and then he traded for a Lexus.
>
> I never understood them either, unless you live in a very tiny European
> city.  My Geo Metros get 55 HP with 50 MPG average, maybe 45 in the
> city.  The only thing the "smart car" has on them would be likely
> holding up better in an accident.  That issue is a mute point, however,
> if you are only driving it around town in a small city.

I agree, the Smart does tend to do well in a crash. HOWEVER the
contends does not do so well.

On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 10:58:41 AM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:
> On 7/19/2021 11:14 AM, Leon wrote:
> > On 7/18/2021 8:21 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
> >> On 7/18/2021 8:25 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> >>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 23:20:21 -0400, Michael Trew<mt99...@ymail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 7/15/2021 5:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> >>>>> And the programmming can
> >>>>> be done by below-US-minimum-wage labor in India, so it's to the
> >>>>> benefit of the manufacturer to do it that way.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, cost is typically the root cause of changes. Whatever makes the
> >>>> manufacturer more cash to swim in.
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The thing is the goverment is now requiring electronically controlled
> >>>>> braking and electronic stability control among other things.
> >>>>
> >>>> One of my many reasons for disliking new cars. If you are uneducated
> >>>> and don't know how to properly "threshold brake" or handle a car in
> >>>> poor
> >>>> conditions (eg: someone who mashes the brake pedal and prays for dear
> >>>> life in a stressful situation), then yes, ESC and ABS are for you --
> >>>> the
> >>>> masses I presume. The other side to the situation, is that people who
> >>>> know how to drive, can be very much hampered with ABS and these
> >>>> systems.
> >>>> I'm glad that none of my cars have this stuff.
> >>>>
> >>>> https://austonhensley.wordpress.com/2012/12/26/why-abs-is-dangerous-and-how-to-disable-it/
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I think your article kind of misses the point. It says "practice in a
> >>> parking lot to learn threshold braking". Personally I have never had
> >>> ABS activate on a dry road unless I was deliberately setting out to
> >>> activate it. But many times I have had it kick in on an _apparently_
> >>> dry road where there was oil, residual moisture, or black ice present
> >>> that I could not have detected other than by locking up and starting
> >>> to skid.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Honestly, I can't remember the last vehicle that I owned with
> >> *working* ABS or even ABS at all... it's been years; I'm not sure that
> >> I recall what it feels like working.
> >
> >
> > It sounds like a fast thumping sound coming from the corner of the
> > vehicle that is having issues and from the unit under the hood
> > activating the anti lock. And many times the brake pedal seems to be
> > going a little further down than what you are use to feeling when the
> > ABS is not activated. Oh, and the vehicle continues to go where you
> > would expect.
> Does it engage often?

Depends on where you live. It doesn't snow too often where Leon lives.
Nor does it ice over.

Where I live there are times when I could force it to engage with almost every
stop when the weather conditions are right. Just think of any road condition
in combination with any braking "technique" during which your wheels would
lock up. That's how often it engages.

> My first thought would be a flat tire if I head/felt a "fast thumping sound"

It's not a flat tire thump. It's not even really a thump. It's more of a chatter.
And it's faster than any flat tire would "thump". Well, unless you were doing
250 MPH or so. ;-)

At 45 secs in, he locks up the brakes, in the snow, so you can hear the chatter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTQvz18oeoI

>
> When the brake pedal "goes down further than I'd expect", that's when I
> panic and downshift or get ready for the e-brake... that would take some
> getting used to. I've had a brake line go out driving down a hill not
> often, but just enough times... not fun.

I don't know that I've experienced a lower brake pedal. I'll have to remember
to check for that...next winter. ;-)

On 7/20/2021 4:57 PM, Leon wrote:
> That thing requires premium fuel??? I guess with all that HP, 46,
> LOL.... I guess you would need premium if the 46 HP was coming from 1/2
> of a cylinder.

That's what I've been told... never owned one, don't plan to!

> I agree, the Smart does tend to do well in a crash.
> HOWEVER the contends does not do so well.

Contents as in passengers, or luggage?

On 7/20/2021 11:40 AM, Markem618 wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:55:37 -0400, Michael Trew<mt999999@ymail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/19/2021 11:10 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 7/18/2021 8:11 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>> On 7/18/2021 10:26 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> The automatic transmission comment above further proves that you simply
>>>>> do not know.
>>>>> Your statement was maybe more true 30+ years ago than now. My son
>>>>> insisted on a standard shift for his first car. So we bough him a
>>>>> Cavalier with manual transmission. The next car that he bought, at
>>>>> about your age, was an automatic. Standard shift requires more driver
>>>>> input, when I was young, that was "fun" and better than an automatic,
>>>>> but that was 50 years ago. At about your age I went with the less
>>>>> trouble automatics. FWIW my son worked at a Chevy dealership while in
>>>>> school and I retired from the auto industry at 40. So I have some hands
>>>>> on experience in HS and college. Today's automatic transmissions mob
>>>>> the floor with manuels. Both in life span and performance.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not ignorant, I'm well aware that they have developed automatic
>>>> transmissions that are far more efficient than manuals. In the cars
>>>> that I can drive and afford, standards still win, especially since era
>>>> autos were mostly 3 speed, and some you almost have to floor to get
>>>> them to downshift.
>>>>
>>>> Personally, as you said, my main point is that I prefer the "drive
>>>> input" aspect. I'm a control freak, but more over, I am one of those
>>>> people that really enjoy driving, and an automatic sucks the fun out
>>>> of it and makes the experience boring.
>>>
>>>
>>> Understood, I was in the camp one time too. That said, the newer, and
>>> especially dual clutch auto transmissions also out perform manual
>>> transmissions as well as being more efficient.
>>>
>>> The latest Corvette for instance does 0-60 in 2.9 seconds. Top speed,
>>> 194 MPH. It is only available with a dual clutch auto trans mission.
>>>
>>> Today I look at most manual transmission vehicles as being entry level
>>> "engineering", regardless of the quality vehicle.
>>>
>>> Like a car with manually operated windows vs. electric.
>>
>> That seems to be how the car sector feels; you can only find a standard
>> in the most base model cars, or a select few high-end cars. If I recall
>> correctly, no one in the US makes a truck with a standard transmission
>> anymore. Maybe the Toyota Tacoma; I think that's it. What's left of
>> standards, I'm sure the electric car phase with wipe out.
>>
>> I must say that if I had a Corvette or sporty car, maximum speed and
>> efficiency be damned, I won't have fun unless it was a standard. I feel
>> like it should be an option for sports car enthusiasts. Then again, I'm
>> sure they'd still offer it enough people bought it... you have to go
>> with what the market demands.
>
> The C8 mid engine Corvette comes with a dual clutch auto, which you
> can paddle shift.

Better than nothing, but personally, that just doesn't do it for me.

On 7/20/2021 11:59 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> You can't get a standard in a new Corvette. The dual-clutch auto
> shifts faster than any manual can.

Yes, but faster shifting is a moot point unless I can do it myself --
paddle shifter just doesn't do it for me. It has to have a clutch. No
worries, I couldn't afford a Corvette even if I wanted to!

On 7/20/2021 8:32 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 10:58:41 AM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:
>> On 7/19/2021 11:14 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 7/18/2021 8:21 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>>> On 7/18/2021 8:25 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 23:20:21 -0400, Michael Trew<mt99...@ymail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/15/2021 5:08 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>> And the programmming can
>>>>>>> be done by below-US-minimum-wage labor in India, so it's to the
>>>>>>> benefit of the manufacturer to do it that way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, cost is typically the root cause of changes. Whatever makes the
>>>>>> manufacturer more cash to swim in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The thing is the goverment is now requiring electronically controlled
>>>>>>> braking and electronic stability control among other things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One of my many reasons for disliking new cars. If you are uneducated
>>>>>> and don't know how to properly "threshold brake" or handle a car in
>>>>>> poor
>>>>>> conditions (eg: someone who mashes the brake pedal and prays for dear
>>>>>> life in a stressful situation), then yes, ESC and ABS are for you --
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> masses I presume. The other side to the situation, is that people who
>>>>>> know how to drive, can be very much hampered with ABS and these
>>>>>> systems.
>>>>>> I'm glad that none of my cars have this stuff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://austonhensley.wordpress.com/2012/12/26/why-abs-is-dangerous-and-how-to-disable-it/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think your article kind of misses the point. It says "practice in a
>>>>> parking lot to learn threshold braking". Personally I have never had
>>>>> ABS activate on a dry road unless I was deliberately setting out to
>>>>> activate it. But many times I have had it kick in on an _apparently_
>>>>> dry road where there was oil, residual moisture, or black ice present
>>>>> that I could not have detected other than by locking up and starting
>>>>> to skid.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Honestly, I can't remember the last vehicle that I owned with
>>>> *working* ABS or even ABS at all... it's been years; I'm not sure that
>>>> I recall what it feels like working.
>>>
>>>
>>> It sounds like a fast thumping sound coming from the corner of the
>>> vehicle that is having issues and from the unit under the hood
>>> activating the anti lock. And many times the brake pedal seems to be
>>> going a little further down than what you are use to feeling when the
>>> ABS is not activated. Oh, and the vehicle continues to go where you
>>> would expect.
>> Does it engage often?
>
> Depends on where you live. It doesn't snow too often where Leon lives.
> Nor does it ice over.
>
> Where I live there are times when I could force it to engage with almost every
> stop when the weather conditions are right. Just think of any road condition
> in combination with any braking "technique" during which your wheels would
> lock up. That's how often it engages.
>
>> My first thought would be a flat tire if I head/felt a "fast thumping sound"
>
> It's not a flat tire thump. It's not even really a thump. It's more of a chatter.
> And it's faster than any flat tire would "thump". Well, unless you were doing
> 250 MPH or so. ;-)
>
> At 45 secs in, he locks up the brakes, in the snow, so you can hear the chatter.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTQvz18oeoI
>
>>
>> When the brake pedal "goes down further than I'd expect", that's when I
>> panic and downshift or get ready for the e-brake... that would take some
>> getting used to. I've had a brake line go out driving down a hill not
>> often, but just enough times... not fun.
>
> I don't know that I've experienced a lower brake pedal. I'll have to remember
> to check for that...next winter. ;-)

Thanks for the video!

The ABS might have helped my '99 Chevy Metro a couple winters ago... I'm
usually really good on the snow/ice, but on a very bad bridge, I managed
to spin out, into about a 270 degree turn in the middle of the bridge,
and THUMP into the concrete barrier. Fortunately, I didn't seem to do
any lasting damage (car is well gone now either way).

That being said, ABS and ESC would ruin my fun! The only part of winter
that I can tolerate is that once or twice a year, when conditions are
right, and I manage to make my way to the Walmart parking lot...
DONUTS!!! hahaha and not the tasty kind. It was actually quite good
practice for driving/dodging things on slick roads, and I have a heck of
a time doing it. I try to leave within 20 minutes before someone calls
the cops on me ;)

On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 01:04:46 -0400, Michael Trew <mt999999@ymail.com>
wrote:

>On 7/20/2021 11:59 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> You can't get a standard in a new Corvette. The dual-clutch auto
>> shifts faster than any manual can.
>
>Yes, but faster shifting is a moot point unless I can do it myself --
>paddle shifter just doesn't do it for me. It has to have a clutch. No
>worries, I couldn't afford a Corvette even if I wanted to!

It has a clutch. Two of them in fact. What it doesn't have is a
pedal to activate them.