On 1/27/2022 8:33 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/27/2022 7:03 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 15:14:41 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 05:20:32 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The crew used the same 'spider' machine to get the ones inside the
>>>> pool fence.
>>>
>>> This machine is more fun:
>>> "Powerful Big Tree Harvester Working, Amazing Giant Excavator Cutting
>>> Tree, Fast Tree Removal Machine"
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suqIZoAcBmA>
>>> Fell, trim branches, debark, buck, and stack.  All that's missing is
>>> split, chipper, stack and haul.
>>>
>>> The neighbors tree project is moving along nicely.  No damage or
>>> fatalities so far.  I'll post some photos later.  The fir trees are
>>> "toothpicks".  150 to 200 high, but only about 5ft(?) diameter. That's
>>> what happens when the forest is clear cut and everything has to
>>> simultaneously compete for the available sunlight.  The result is a
>>> very dense forest full of very tall toothpicks.  I'll do some
>>> measuring and trigonometry (later) and calculate the height and
>>> measure diameter of the fir trees.
>>
>> Well, I read that "The national average cost for tree removal is
>> pegged at $715". For a job that any male adult should be capable of
>> accomplishing with a $50 axe and a $200 crosscut saw and a son, or the
>> neighbor kid, to help (:-)
>>
>> AND... you can use the axe and saw for the rest of your life (:-)
>>
>
> Felling a tree in woodlands is hard enough (until recently done in
> Wisconsin in winter with horses and chains over the snow) but anywhere
> near buildings, power lines, roads and such it's  significantly more
> difficult!

I've dropped several large trees in my yard and in our neighbor's over
the decades. In every case, I was able to land the tree exactly where I
wanted it to go, and several times that required high precision to avoid
damage to buildings or other trees.

But yes, it can be quite tricky. My ash trees were impossible without
fancy equipment.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/28/2022 10:43 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 28.01.2022 um 17:13 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:38:49 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
>> <fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 1:53:20 AM UTC,
>>> jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> About 1.5 cords:
>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/firewood-2011.jpg>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> BTW. The current price for a delivered cord of 14" or
>>>> 15" oak or
>>>> madrone firewood $600.
>>
>>> Okay, I'll bite. How is "a cord" determined? Is it a
>>> fixed weight? Or a fixed volume, like so many F150 loads?
>>> Or enough wood to make x BTUs when efficiently burned?
>>
>> It's suppose to be a neatly stacked woodpile.
>> Nominally 4ft x 4ft x 8ft = 128 cubic-feet.
>> However, that's subject to far too much creative
>> interpretation. To
>> the buyer, the wood is stacked tightly, with little
>> airspace. To the
>> seller, it's whatever is randomly thrown into the back of
>> their pickup
>> truck with plywood on the sides to allow for the 4ft
>> height. Extra
>> creativity for not allowing for the loss from rear tire
>> wheel wells,
>> tool boxes, and debris in the truck. Even when stacked,
>> measurement
>> is done with a tape measure. My piles are a bit of a
>> problem as
>> they're on a slight grade or hillside. The final
>> determination is
>> usually settled by guesswork and haggling. I'll spare you
>> the horror
>> stories, but I don't recall getting a genuine full cord of
>> firewood in
>> the last 15 years. Some of my wood piles are features at:
>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/>
>
> Similarly, in Germany we have "Ster" as a measure of a
> stacked 1 cubic meter, with the variations:
> 1) in the forest (but guaranteed to be reachable by
> vehicle), it's sawed to 1m length, 1m height and and stack
> size (typically sold in installments like "1 stack of 15 Ster")
> 2) at the wood dealer, it's guaranteed to be dry but sawed
> to 1/3m length (minus losses), typically sold in quantities
> like 1/2 Ster or 1 Ster.
>
> The weight of such a stack is not a good measure because as
> the stack dries it loses weight but gains value.
>
> As sold in the forest, the variation in price between
> different wood types is significant, as sold or even
> delivered by the wood dealer, the constant aspects of the
> costs are getting more relevant.
>
> When I was a teenager, my dad once bought a stack of wood in
> the forest, borrowed a tractor and trailer to get the stack
> to our ground, rented a mobile saw with operators to have it
> cut to oven sized and then had it dry some more before
> bringing it home in the car and trailer for firewood when
> needed - having to help with this was the main trigger for
> me to stay miles away from any gardening or wood burning
> activity in my adult life.

+1
One long weekend in January on Wisconsin's northern border
('cut wood or die') cured me of any romantic thoughts on
wood heat.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/28/2022 1:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/28/2022 10:43 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 28.01.2022 um 17:13 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:38:49 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
>>> <fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 1:53:20 AM UTC,
>>>> jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> About 1.5 cords:
>>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/firewood-2011.jpg>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW. The current price for a delivered cord of 14" or
>>>>> 15" oak or
>>>>> madrone firewood $600.
>>>
>>>> Okay, I'll bite. How is "a cord" determined?  Is it a
>>>> fixed weight? Or a fixed volume, like so many F150 loads?
>>>> Or enough wood to make x BTUs when efficiently burned?
>>>
>>> It's suppose to be a neatly stacked woodpile.
>>> Nominally 4ft x 4ft x 8ft = 128 cubic-feet.
>>> However, that's subject to far too much creative
>>> interpretation.  To
>>> the buyer, the wood is stacked tightly, with little
>>> airspace.  To the
>>> seller, it's whatever is randomly thrown into the back of
>>> their pickup
>>> truck with plywood on the sides to allow for the 4ft
>>> height.  Extra
>>> creativity for not allowing for the loss from rear tire
>>> wheel wells,
>>> tool boxes, and debris in the truck.  Even when stacked,
>>> measurement
>>> is done with a tape measure.  My piles are a bit of a
>>> problem as
>>> they're on a slight grade or hillside.  The final
>>> determination is
>>> usually settled by guesswork and haggling.  I'll spare you
>>> the horror
>>> stories, but I don't recall getting a genuine full cord of
>>> firewood in
>>> the last 15 years.  Some of my wood piles are features at:
>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/>
>>
>> Similarly, in Germany we have "Ster" as a measure of a
>> stacked 1 cubic meter, with the variations:
>> 1) in the forest (but guaranteed to be reachable by
>> vehicle), it's sawed to 1m length, 1m height and and stack
>> size (typically sold in installments like "1 stack of 15 Ster")
>> 2) at the wood dealer, it's guaranteed to be dry but sawed
>> to 1/3m length (minus losses), typically sold in quantities
>> like 1/2 Ster or 1 Ster.
>>
>> The weight of such a stack is not a good measure because as
>> the stack dries it loses weight but gains value.
>>
>> As sold in the forest, the variation in price between
>> different wood types is significant, as sold or even
>> delivered by the wood dealer, the constant aspects of the
>> costs are getting more relevant.
>>
>> When I was a teenager, my dad once bought a stack of wood in
>> the forest, borrowed a tractor and trailer to get the stack
>> to our ground, rented a mobile saw with operators to have it
>> cut to oven sized and then had it dry some more before
>> bringing it home in the car and trailer for firewood when
>> needed - having to help with this was the main trigger for
>> me to stay miles away from any gardening or wood burning
>> activity in my adult life.
>
> +1
> One long weekend in January on Wisconsin's northern border ('cut wood or
> die') cured me of any romantic thoughts on wood heat.

I'll add that unlike proper stoves, most fireplaces are nice to look at
but do not really heat the house. Yes, the room they're in will get
warmer, but usually the house as a whole loses heat. That's because the
fireplace sucks air out of the house, which is replaced by cold air
seeping in through every possible crack around the house. It's a net loss.

When we moved into this house, I was pleased that it had an ancient
"Heatilator" fireplace - one with a metal firebox, and low and high
vents in the masonry to allow convective heat transfer from the sides
and back of that box. But the first winter taught me the fireplace was
no help.

We do have a nice supply of wood, so I soon added glass doors, a blower
grate, and most critically, an outside air intake. Now combustion air
comes up through the ash pit cleanout door just below the flames. I
rigged external controls for that little door and for the main damper.
Otherwise I think I'd be able to melt metal in there! I also added a
blower to the "heatilator" part.

The system works really well, except for a bit too much blower noise.
But I miss having a teenager to tell "Go get another load of wood from
the garage."

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/28/2022 12:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/28/2022 1:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/28/2022 10:43 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 17:13 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:38:49 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
>>>> <fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 1:53:20 AM UTC,
>>>>> jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> About 1.5 cords:
>>>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/firewood-2011.jpg>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BTW. The current price for a delivered cord of 14" or
>>>>>> 15" oak or
>>>>>> madrone firewood $600.
>>>>
>>>>> Okay, I'll bite. How is "a cord" determined? Is it a
>>>>> fixed weight? Or a fixed volume, like so many F150 loads?
>>>>> Or enough wood to make x BTUs when efficiently burned?
>>>>
>>>> It's suppose to be a neatly stacked woodpile.
>>>> Nominally 4ft x 4ft x 8ft = 128 cubic-feet.
>>>> However, that's subject to far too much creative
>>>> interpretation. To
>>>> the buyer, the wood is stacked tightly, with little
>>>> airspace. To the
>>>> seller, it's whatever is randomly thrown into the back of
>>>> their pickup
>>>> truck with plywood on the sides to allow for the 4ft
>>>> height. Extra
>>>> creativity for not allowing for the loss from rear tire
>>>> wheel wells,
>>>> tool boxes, and debris in the truck. Even when stacked,
>>>> measurement
>>>> is done with a tape measure. My piles are a bit of a
>>>> problem as
>>>> they're on a slight grade or hillside. The final
>>>> determination is
>>>> usually settled by guesswork and haggling. I'll spare you
>>>> the horror
>>>> stories, but I don't recall getting a genuine full cord of
>>>> firewood in
>>>> the last 15 years. Some of my wood piles are features at:
>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/>
>>>
>>> Similarly, in Germany we have "Ster" as a measure of a
>>> stacked 1 cubic meter, with the variations:
>>> 1) in the forest (but guaranteed to be reachable by
>>> vehicle), it's sawed to 1m length, 1m height and and stack
>>> size (typically sold in installments like "1 stack of 15
>>> Ster")
>>> 2) at the wood dealer, it's guaranteed to be dry but sawed
>>> to 1/3m length (minus losses), typically sold in quantities
>>> like 1/2 Ster or 1 Ster.
>>>
>>> The weight of such a stack is not a good measure because as
>>> the stack dries it loses weight but gains value.
>>>
>>> As sold in the forest, the variation in price between
>>> different wood types is significant, as sold or even
>>> delivered by the wood dealer, the constant aspects of the
>>> costs are getting more relevant.
>>>
>>> When I was a teenager, my dad once bought a stack of wood in
>>> the forest, borrowed a tractor and trailer to get the stack
>>> to our ground, rented a mobile saw with operators to have it
>>> cut to oven sized and then had it dry some more before
>>> bringing it home in the car and trailer for firewood when
>>> needed - having to help with this was the main trigger for
>>> me to stay miles away from any gardening or wood burning
>>> activity in my adult life.
>>
>> +1
>> One long weekend in January on Wisconsin's northern border
>> ('cut wood or die') cured me of any romantic thoughts on
>> wood heat.
>
> I'll add that unlike proper stoves, most fireplaces are nice
> to look at but do not really heat the house. Yes, the room
> they're in will get warmer, but usually the house as a whole
> loses heat. That's because the fireplace sucks air out of
> the house, which is replaced by cold air seeping in through
> every possible crack around the house. It's a net loss.
>
> When we moved into this house, I was pleased that it had an
> ancient "Heatilator" fireplace - one with a metal firebox,
> and low and high vents in the masonry to allow convective
> heat transfer from the sides and back of that box. But the
> first winter taught me the fireplace was no help.
>
> We do have a nice supply of wood, so I soon added glass
> doors, a blower grate, and most critically, an outside air
> intake. Now combustion air comes up through the ash pit
> cleanout door just below the flames. I rigged external
> controls for that little door and for the main damper.
> Otherwise I think I'd be able to melt metal in there! I also
> added a blower to the "heatilator" part.
>
> The system works really well, except for a bit too much
> blower noise. But I miss having a teenager to tell "Go get
> another load of wood from the garage."
>
>

I'm told that with proper skilled adjustment of airflow,
fireplaces can be almost as efficient as a steel cook stove.
I have no desire to learn more.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 1:05:27 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/28/2022 12:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 1/28/2022 1:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 1/28/2022 10:43 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> >>> Am 28.01.2022 um 17:13 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
> >>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:38:49 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> >>>> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 1:53:20 AM UTC,
> >>>>> jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>> About 1.5 cords:
> >>>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/firewood-2011.jpg>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> BTW. The current price for a delivered cord of 14" or
> >>>>>> 15" oak or
> >>>>>> madrone firewood $600.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Okay, I'll bite. How is "a cord" determined? Is it a
> >>>>> fixed weight? Or a fixed volume, like so many F150 loads?
> >>>>> Or enough wood to make x BTUs when efficiently burned?
> >>>>
> >>>> It's suppose to be a neatly stacked woodpile.
> >>>> Nominally 4ft x 4ft x 8ft = 128 cubic-feet.
> >>>> However, that's subject to far too much creative
> >>>> interpretation. To
> >>>> the buyer, the wood is stacked tightly, with little
> >>>> airspace. To the
> >>>> seller, it's whatever is randomly thrown into the back of
> >>>> their pickup
> >>>> truck with plywood on the sides to allow for the 4ft
> >>>> height. Extra
> >>>> creativity for not allowing for the loss from rear tire
> >>>> wheel wells,
> >>>> tool boxes, and debris in the truck. Even when stacked,
> >>>> measurement
> >>>> is done with a tape measure. My piles are a bit of a
> >>>> problem as
> >>>> they're on a slight grade or hillside. The final
> >>>> determination is
> >>>> usually settled by guesswork and haggling. I'll spare you
> >>>> the horror
> >>>> stories, but I don't recall getting a genuine full cord of
> >>>> firewood in
> >>>> the last 15 years. Some of my wood piles are features at:
> >>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/>
> >>>
> >>> Similarly, in Germany we have "Ster" as a measure of a
> >>> stacked 1 cubic meter, with the variations:
> >>> 1) in the forest (but guaranteed to be reachable by
> >>> vehicle), it's sawed to 1m length, 1m height and and stack
> >>> size (typically sold in installments like "1 stack of 15
> >>> Ster")
> >>> 2) at the wood dealer, it's guaranteed to be dry but sawed
> >>> to 1/3m length (minus losses), typically sold in quantities
> >>> like 1/2 Ster or 1 Ster.
> >>>
> >>> The weight of such a stack is not a good measure because as
> >>> the stack dries it loses weight but gains value.
> >>>
> >>> As sold in the forest, the variation in price between
> >>> different wood types is significant, as sold or even
> >>> delivered by the wood dealer, the constant aspects of the
> >>> costs are getting more relevant.
> >>>
> >>> When I was a teenager, my dad once bought a stack of wood in
> >>> the forest, borrowed a tractor and trailer to get the stack
> >>> to our ground, rented a mobile saw with operators to have it
> >>> cut to oven sized and then had it dry some more before
> >>> bringing it home in the car and trailer for firewood when
> >>> needed - having to help with this was the main trigger for
> >>> me to stay miles away from any gardening or wood burning
> >>> activity in my adult life.
> >>
> >> +1
> >> One long weekend in January on Wisconsin's northern border
> >> ('cut wood or die') cured me of any romantic thoughts on
> >> wood heat.
> >
> > I'll add that unlike proper stoves, most fireplaces are nice
> > to look at but do not really heat the house. Yes, the room
> > they're in will get warmer, but usually the house as a whole
> > loses heat. That's because the fireplace sucks air out of
> > the house, which is replaced by cold air seeping in through
> > every possible crack around the house. It's a net loss.
> >
> > When we moved into this house, I was pleased that it had an
> > ancient "Heatilator" fireplace - one with a metal firebox,
> > and low and high vents in the masonry to allow convective
> > heat transfer from the sides and back of that box. But the
> > first winter taught me the fireplace was no help.
> >
> > We do have a nice supply of wood, so I soon added glass
> > doors, a blower grate, and most critically, an outside air
> > intake. Now combustion air comes up through the ash pit
> > cleanout door just below the flames. I rigged external
> > controls for that little door and for the main damper.
> > Otherwise I think I'd be able to melt metal in there! I also
> > added a blower to the "heatilator" part.
> >
> > The system works really well, except for a bit too much
> > blower noise. But I miss having a teenager to tell "Go get
> > another load of wood from the garage."
> >
> >
> I'm told that with proper skilled adjustment of airflow,
> fireplaces can be almost as efficient as a steel cook stove.
> I have no desire to learn more.

When I was a kid, we had a stove that had gas burners but the oven was coal stoked. It was damned hard to get the right temperature and most of the times anything from the oven was watched every minute or it burn everything,. We also partially heated the house with coal in the fireplace and a gas furnace in the hallway that you had to stand over to feel any heat from. Wood is nowhere near as warm as coal.

On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 4:14:03 PM UTC, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:38:49 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 1:53:20 AM UTC, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> About 1.5 cords:
> >> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/firewood-2011.jpg>
> >>
> >> BTW. The current price for a delivered cord of 14" or 15" oak or
> >> madrone firewood $600.
> >Okay, I'll bite. How is "a cord" determined? Is it a fixed weight? Or a fixed volume, like so many F150 loads? Or enough wood to make x BTUs when efficiently burned?
> It's suppose to be a neatly stacked woodpile.
> Nominally 4ft x 4ft x 8ft = 128 cubic-feet.
> However, that's subject to far too much creative interpretation. To
> the buyer, the wood is stacked tightly, with little airspace. To the
> seller, it's whatever is randomly thrown into the back of their pickup
> truck with plywood on the sides to allow for the 4ft height. Extra
> creativity for not allowing for the loss from rear tire wheel wells,
> tool boxes, and debris in the truck. Even when stacked, measurement
> is done with a tape measure. My piles are a bit of a problem as
> they're on a slight grade or hillside. The final determination is
> usually settled by guesswork and haggling. I'll spare you the horror
> stories, but I don't recall getting a genuine full cord of firewood in
> the last 15 years. Some of my wood piles are features at:
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/>
> >Here's one for your trivia basket. You've seen on paper that its weight is 70lbs or 190 grammes per square meter (gsm), or whatever. That's a highly movable target as one 80gsm paper can be thin while the one right next door at the same weight is thick. The problem arises because traditionally the weight of the paper is not an absolute, but relates to the size of the sheet from which it was cut. The weight of five hundred full sheets of paper is taken, and then divided by square meters of end-user sheets cut from it, so if you start with small sheets (typical of artisan "handmade" paper) out of the drum, fewer end-user sheets can be cut, whereas when you start with huge sheets (typical of mass production papers), many end-user sheets can be cut. There's also the fact that with the huge sheets there's proportionately less wastage.
> I find it rather odd that something that is used by the square meter
> (i.e. paper), is sold by it's weight. Assuming the paper thickness is
> constant, it should be easy enough to sell paper by volume, just like
> firewood.
>
Elements that influence the price of art papers include the thickness (i.e. generally weight), quality (pulped wood chip or long-fiber cotton to take two extremes), the processing and the treatment of the paper. But there are exceptions. Chinese rice paper or Japanese washi are both very thin and very strong even when wet (well, except in my hands where both are a wasteful disaster), and roundabout 40gsm, but about the same price as premium 300gsm 100% new long-fiber cotton paper sized and surface-finished to whatever spec you want. More common papers like typewriter bond is priced per ream in the more common sizes, a ream being the same 500 sheets of the cut-down size as the 500-sheet ream of the large paper it was cut from. I keep a ream of 90gsm good quality bond A4 beside my desk as doilies for my teapot, backing sheets in sketchbooks that I abuse by using wet media on unsized paper, general scratch paper, and it costs about a third per ream as much as a single Imperial (another sizing nightmare for newbies) sheet (approx 22 x 30 inches less a little space lost to the deckle edge -- don't ask! --of drum rather than mill manufacture) of 300gsm watercolor paper from Arches, agreed by many to be the best quality watercolor paper generally available.
>
> >Andre Jute
> >Try, as an extremely advanced exercise in communication, to explain to a time-served printing master craftsman why this traditional way of determining an important element in the quality of paper sows nothing but confusion, and you'll soon discover what frustration really is.
>
> Same with firewood. In my area, the most desirable firewood is oak.
> Going down the list is madrone, douglas fir, mystery wood, eucalyptus
> and finally pine. Yet, they all seem to sell for about the same
> price. That's because the value is not in the wood or how well it can
> heat, but rather in the labor needed to process and deliver the
> firewood, which doesn't vary much for different types of wood.
>
> Incidentally, we have a local faction that is trying to get the
> government(s) to ban burning firewood. They were having some success,
> especially after getting the state to subsidize firewood to propane
> gas stove replacements. The recent rise in propane prices put an end
> to that and the market value for wood burning stoves has greatly
> improved.
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>
Gentlemen, thank you for your input. I read it all with increasing incredulity at the multitude of "standards" that standardize nothing but confusion.
>
Andre Jute
I once took an Esperanto class, but only for long enough to catch the teacher out in a sentence which was open to five different, radically opposed meanings, and those were only the ones I saw instantly because the sentence relied for all its words on a handful or two of the languages I speak; if I worked at it, I could no doubt fatten up the charge sheet to one full page (A4, 12 on 14.5pt Lucida Grande, hyphenated but unjustified, 1in margins all round -- see what I mean?).
>

On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 9:22:12 PM UTC, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 1:05:27 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 1/28/2022 12:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 1/28/2022 1:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 1/28/2022 10:43 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> > >>> Am 28.01.2022 um 17:13 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
> > >>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:38:49 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> > >>>> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 1:53:20 AM UTC,
> > >>>>> jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>> About 1.5 cords:
> > >>>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/firewood-2011.jpg>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> BTW. The current price for a delivered cord of 14" or
> > >>>>>> 15" oak or
> > >>>>>> madrone firewood $600.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Okay, I'll bite. How is "a cord" determined? Is it a
> > >>>>> fixed weight? Or a fixed volume, like so many F150 loads?
> > >>>>> Or enough wood to make x BTUs when efficiently burned?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> It's suppose to be a neatly stacked woodpile.
> > >>>> Nominally 4ft x 4ft x 8ft = 128 cubic-feet.
> > >>>> However, that's subject to far too much creative
> > >>>> interpretation. To
> > >>>> the buyer, the wood is stacked tightly, with little
> > >>>> airspace. To the
> > >>>> seller, it's whatever is randomly thrown into the back of
> > >>>> their pickup
> > >>>> truck with plywood on the sides to allow for the 4ft
> > >>>> height. Extra
> > >>>> creativity for not allowing for the loss from rear tire
> > >>>> wheel wells,
> > >>>> tool boxes, and debris in the truck. Even when stacked,
> > >>>> measurement
> > >>>> is done with a tape measure. My piles are a bit of a
> > >>>> problem as
> > >>>> they're on a slight grade or hillside. The final
> > >>>> determination is
> > >>>> usually settled by guesswork and haggling. I'll spare you
> > >>>> the horror
> > >>>> stories, but I don't recall getting a genuine full cord of
> > >>>> firewood in
> > >>>> the last 15 years. Some of my wood piles are features at:
> > >>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/>
> > >>>
> > >>> Similarly, in Germany we have "Ster" as a measure of a
> > >>> stacked 1 cubic meter, with the variations:
> > >>> 1) in the forest (but guaranteed to be reachable by
> > >>> vehicle), it's sawed to 1m length, 1m height and and stack
> > >>> size (typically sold in installments like "1 stack of 15
> > >>> Ster")
> > >>> 2) at the wood dealer, it's guaranteed to be dry but sawed
> > >>> to 1/3m length (minus losses), typically sold in quantities
> > >>> like 1/2 Ster or 1 Ster.
> > >>>
> > >>> The weight of such a stack is not a good measure because as
> > >>> the stack dries it loses weight but gains value.
> > >>>
> > >>> As sold in the forest, the variation in price between
> > >>> different wood types is significant, as sold or even
> > >>> delivered by the wood dealer, the constant aspects of the
> > >>> costs are getting more relevant.
> > >>>
> > >>> When I was a teenager, my dad once bought a stack of wood in
> > >>> the forest, borrowed a tractor and trailer to get the stack
> > >>> to our ground, rented a mobile saw with operators to have it
> > >>> cut to oven sized and then had it dry some more before
> > >>> bringing it home in the car and trailer for firewood when
> > >>> needed - having to help with this was the main trigger for
> > >>> me to stay miles away from any gardening or wood burning
> > >>> activity in my adult life.
> > >>
> > >> +1
> > >> One long weekend in January on Wisconsin's northern border
> > >> ('cut wood or die') cured me of any romantic thoughts on
> > >> wood heat.
> > >
> > > I'll add that unlike proper stoves, most fireplaces are nice
> > > to look at but do not really heat the house. Yes, the room
> > > they're in will get warmer, but usually the house as a whole
> > > loses heat. That's because the fireplace sucks air out of
> > > the house, which is replaced by cold air seeping in through
> > > every possible crack around the house. It's a net loss.
> > >
> > > When we moved into this house, I was pleased that it had an
> > > ancient "Heatilator" fireplace - one with a metal firebox,
> > > and low and high vents in the masonry to allow convective
> > > heat transfer from the sides and back of that box. But the
> > > first winter taught me the fireplace was no help.
> > >
> > > We do have a nice supply of wood, so I soon added glass
> > > doors, a blower grate, and most critically, an outside air
> > > intake. Now combustion air comes up through the ash pit
> > > cleanout door just below the flames. I rigged external
> > > controls for that little door and for the main damper.
> > > Otherwise I think I'd be able to melt metal in there! I also
> > > added a blower to the "heatilator" part.
> > >
> > > The system works really well, except for a bit too much
> > > blower noise. But I miss having a teenager to tell "Go get
> > > another load of wood from the garage."
> > >
> > >
> > I'm told that with proper skilled adjustment of airflow,
> > fireplaces can be almost as efficient as a steel cook stove.
> > I have no desire to learn more.
> When I was a kid, we had a stove that had gas burners but the oven was coal stoked. It was damned hard to get the right temperature and most of the times anything from the oven was watched every minute or it burn everything,. We also partially heated the house with coal in the fireplace and a gas furnace in the hallway that you had to stand over to feel any heat from. Wood is nowhere near as warm as coal.
>
You should try to get heat from "peat" which is, I think (make yourself useful, Slow Johnny: look it up for us) a pre-coal state of prehistoric trees fallen into swampy bogs. It's the approved form of fuel here in Ireland because the bogs are in the gaeltacht areas (being a Gaelic speaker in Ireland is to be in a privileged position, like original Indians or Black people in the States). This is ironic because it is about the least efficient form of heat, but it is promoted by the Irish government , which is otherwise loudly and perfectly sincerely environmentalist, because it is a local industry and more, local to the gaeltacht areas. Everybody who consumes electricity in Ireland pays a substantial premium for the statutory use of peat in generating electricity, and on top of this a value-added tax on the tax to support the peat industry. Duh. -- AJ
>

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 06:12:05 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 4:28:45 PM UTC-5, Andre Jute wrote:
>> On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 7:07:26 PM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> > Tom, there MUST be political discussion groups where you can rant on
>> > topic, instead of poisoning all discussions here.
>> >
>> > Your political views are obviously not getting much approval here. Take
>> > your political crap elsewhere where you have a slight chance to be a
>> > hero instead of a fool.
>> >
>> > --
>> > - Frank Krygowski
>> >
>> Who appointed you gatekeeper of RBT, scumbag?
>
>Who appointed kunich the fascist paramilitary who constantly threatens physical violence, scumbag?
>
>> >
>> Andre Jute
>> This jerk Krygowski is incapable of learning anything.
>
>This impotent twit jute is incapable of engaging anyone without hateful rhetoric.

Goodness! You are referring to this bloke who lives in the low rent
district of Ireland, the famous author who is reduced to
self-publishing and selling his great works on Amazon, the chap that
built the electric bicycle because he couldn't afford the road tax for
a motor scooter, as a TWIT?

Too kind Sir! Too kind.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 08:13:55 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:38:49 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
><fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 1:53:20 AM UTC, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> About 1.5 cords:
>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/firewood-2011.jpg>
>>>
>>> BTW. The current price for a delivered cord of 14" or 15" oak or
>>> madrone firewood $600.
>
>>Okay, I'll bite. How is "a cord" determined? Is it a fixed weight? Or a fixed volume, like so many F150 loads? Or enough wood to make x BTUs when efficiently burned?
>
>It's suppose to be a neatly stacked woodpile.
>Nominally 4ft x 4ft x 8ft = 128 cubic-feet.
>However, that's subject to far too much creative interpretation. To
>the buyer, the wood is stacked tightly, with little airspace. To the
>seller, it's whatever is randomly thrown into the back of their pickup
>truck with plywood on the sides to allow for the 4ft height. Extra
>creativity for not allowing for the loss from rear tire wheel wells,
>tool boxes, and debris in the truck. Even when stacked, measurement
>is done with a tape measure. My piles are a bit of a problem as
>they're on a slight grade or hillside. The final determination is
>usually settled by guesswork and haggling. I'll spare you the horror
>stories, but I don't recall getting a genuine full cord of firewood in
>the last 15 years. Some of my wood piles are features at:
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/>
>

Actually Jeff, a "cord" of wood was, at least back in the day when
wood was commonly used for heating, a pile of "cord wood" 4 feet high
and 8 feet long. "Cord wood" being 4 foot sections of a tree.

After you bought the number of cords of wood that you estimated would
need for the winter you then needed to "buck it up" into "stove wood"
lengths with a "buck saw" and probably split it.

And a sensible chap would have bought two different types of wood,
some pine, or other soft wood, and some oak, maple, or other hard
woods. To do different would certainly invoke the ire of one's wife,
or mother in law, who was ever doing the cooking, as certainly two
types of wood are needed for a quick hot flame and longer lasting
"baking" fire.

I might add that I earned by first .22, single shot, Winchester, rifle
by bucking up cord wood for a month, every afternoon, till supper
time, after school when I was 12 years old (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 13:31:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/28/2022 1:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/28/2022 10:43 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 17:13 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:38:49 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
>>>> <fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 1:53:20 AM UTC,
>>>>> jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> About 1.5 cords:
>>>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/firewood-2011.jpg>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BTW. The current price for a delivered cord of 14" or
>>>>>> 15" oak or
>>>>>> madrone firewood $600.
>>>>
>>>>> Okay, I'll bite. How is "a cord" determined?  Is it a
>>>>> fixed weight? Or a fixed volume, like so many F150 loads?
>>>>> Or enough wood to make x BTUs when efficiently burned?
>>>>
>>>> It's suppose to be a neatly stacked woodpile.
>>>> Nominally 4ft x 4ft x 8ft = 128 cubic-feet.
>>>> However, that's subject to far too much creative
>>>> interpretation.  To
>>>> the buyer, the wood is stacked tightly, with little
>>>> airspace.  To the
>>>> seller, it's whatever is randomly thrown into the back of
>>>> their pickup
>>>> truck with plywood on the sides to allow for the 4ft
>>>> height.  Extra
>>>> creativity for not allowing for the loss from rear tire
>>>> wheel wells,
>>>> tool boxes, and debris in the truck.  Even when stacked,
>>>> measurement
>>>> is done with a tape measure.  My piles are a bit of a
>>>> problem as
>>>> they're on a slight grade or hillside.  The final
>>>> determination is
>>>> usually settled by guesswork and haggling.  I'll spare you
>>>> the horror
>>>> stories, but I don't recall getting a genuine full cord of
>>>> firewood in
>>>> the last 15 years.  Some of my wood piles are features at:
>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/>
>>>
>>> Similarly, in Germany we have "Ster" as a measure of a
>>> stacked 1 cubic meter, with the variations:
>>> 1) in the forest (but guaranteed to be reachable by
>>> vehicle), it's sawed to 1m length, 1m height and and stack
>>> size (typically sold in installments like "1 stack of 15 Ster")
>>> 2) at the wood dealer, it's guaranteed to be dry but sawed
>>> to 1/3m length (minus losses), typically sold in quantities
>>> like 1/2 Ster or 1 Ster.
>>>
>>> The weight of such a stack is not a good measure because as
>>> the stack dries it loses weight but gains value.
>>>
>>> As sold in the forest, the variation in price between
>>> different wood types is significant, as sold or even
>>> delivered by the wood dealer, the constant aspects of the
>>> costs are getting more relevant.
>>>
>>> When I was a teenager, my dad once bought a stack of wood in
>>> the forest, borrowed a tractor and trailer to get the stack
>>> to our ground, rented a mobile saw with operators to have it
>>> cut to oven sized and then had it dry some more before
>>> bringing it home in the car and trailer for firewood when
>>> needed - having to help with this was the main trigger for
>>> me to stay miles away from any gardening or wood burning
>>> activity in my adult life.
>>
>> +1
>> One long weekend in January on Wisconsin's northern border ('cut wood or
>> die') cured me of any romantic thoughts on wood heat.
>
>I'll add that unlike proper stoves, most fireplaces are nice to look at
>but do not really heat the house. Yes, the room they're in will get
>warmer, but usually the house as a whole loses heat. That's because the
>fireplace sucks air out of the house, which is replaced by cold air
>seeping in through every possible crack around the house. It's a net loss.
>

Good Lord Frank! No one with as much sense as a goose ever thought
that a fireplace was meant to heat a house. In fact anyone with a lick
of sense "boarded up" all the fireplaces in the house every fall...
Well, except for maybe the front room as a fire in the fireplace was
sort of nice to sit in front of after dinner on a Sunday, when the
Preacher came to call. While the women folk were scurrying around
getting the kitchen cleaned up after eating.

In fact Ben Franklin's greatest contribution to history was the
"Franklin Stove" that replaced the fireplace.

I might add that a fireplace was, perhaps, somewhat of a boon to the
Missus as it gave her a place to dump the floor sweepings and such and
then it could all be burned once a week.

>When we moved into this house, I was pleased that it had an ancient
>"Heatilator" fireplace - one with a metal firebox, and low and high
>vents in the masonry to allow convective heat transfer from the sides
>and back of that box. But the first winter taught me the fireplace was
>no help.
>
>We do have a nice supply of wood, so I soon added glass doors, a blower
>grate, and most critically, an outside air intake. Now combustion air
>comes up through the ash pit cleanout door just below the flames. I
>rigged external controls for that little door and for the main damper.
>Otherwise I think I'd be able to melt metal in there! I also added a
>blower to the "heatilator" part.
>
>The system works really well, except for a bit too much blower noise.
>But I miss having a teenager to tell "Go get another load of wood from
>the garage."
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 19:44:31 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 07:25:54 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>In fact Ben Franklin's greatest contribution to history was the
>>"Franklin Stove" that replaced the fireplace.
>
>It didn't replace the fireplace. It was an iron insert that fit into
>the brick fireplace and greatly improved its efficiency.
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_stove#Stove_design>
>David Rittenhouse fixed most of the problems but Franklin retained the
>credit for the design.
><https://www.woot.com/blog/post/the-debunker-did-benjamin-franklin-invent-the-franklin-stove>
>
>>I might add that a fireplace was, perhaps, somewhat of a boon to the
>>Missus as it gave her a place to dump the floor sweepings and such and
>>then it could all be burned once a week.
>
>Yep. However, not everything would burn, such as dirt. Eventually,
>the bottom of the inverted siphon flue in the chimney will clog. That
>eventually causes the stove to not draw very much air resulting in all
>the ash going into the room instead of up the chimney. Fortunately,
>the bottom of the flue had a cleanout door, so the accumulated ash and
>unburnable dirt, could be removed and buried. This was in interesting
>exercise in cold climates, where a fire was always burning. Open the
>ash door with the fire going would cause the room to fill with smoke
>due to lack of chimney draw.

You must be talking about something other then the traditional chimney
and fireplace as growing up in New Hampshire I never say anything like
you describe. A fireplace was simply a widening of the lower portion
of the chimney with an opening in the side facing into the house. And,
of course, you had "andirons" which were normally movable metal
"stands" which held to burning wood up off the floor of the fireplace.
To clean you had a "Fireplace Set" which included a poker, a small
shovel and usually a small broom. and of coarse you had an ash pail,
or bucket, so that when you shoveled out the burned ashes, etc., you
had something to put it in... quite often the ashes were sprinkled on
walkways to provide better traction the just stomped down snow.

Ash buckets -
https://www.amazon.com/fireplace-ash-bucket/s?k=fireplace+ash+bucket
Fireplace set -
https://www.amazon.com/fireplace-sets/s?k=fireplace+sets
Andirons -
https://tinyurl.com/ycxz78yw
(:-)
Traditionally it was the husband who shoveled out the ashes followed
by the wife with the broom. Mumbling, under her breath, about people
that "made a mess" (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 20:28:49 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 06:09:46 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Actually Jeff, a "cord" of wood was, at least back in the day when
>>wood was commonly used for heating, a pile of "cord wood" 4 feet high
>>and 8 feet long. "Cord wood" being 4 foot sections of a tree.
>>
>>After you bought the number of cords of wood that you estimated would
>>need for the winter you then needed to "buck it up" into "stove wood"
>>lengths with a "buck saw" and probably split it.
>
>Times have changed along with firewood definitions. Most references
>today proclaim that a cord is 4 x 4 x 8ft with no specific length for
>the logs because of wide variations in how long a log a specific model
>stove can handle. However, there is a "face cord", which uses 16 inch
>logs and is 4ft x 4ft x 16 inches:
><https://fullservicechimney.com/what-is-a-cord-of-wood/>
>There's also a reference to a "rick", but I've never heard anyone use
>the term locally.
>
>Incidentally, the usual undersized cord of firewood, delivered by the
>local greedy firewood dealer, is referred to as a "metric cord".
>
>There's also a crane log gripper, which grips the log using teeth that
>wrap around the log. Something like this:
><https://www.google.com/search?q=crane+log+gripper&tbm=isch>
>It's sometimes referred to as a "tree hugger" in honor of the
>ecologists.
>
>>And a sensible chap would have bought two different types of wood,
>>some pine, or other soft wood, and some oak, maple, or other hard
>>woods. To do different would certainly invoke the ire of one's wife,
>>or mother in law, who was ever doing the cooking, as certainly two
>>types of wood are needed for a quick hot flame and longer lasting
>>"baking" fire.
>
>Yep. That would be a problem. However, the "stove wood" for a cook
>stove are not the large logs meant for heating the entire house. The
>typical cast iron stove has a small firebox that takes sticks, twigs,
>small branches, and shavings. Here's a modern example:
><https://www.hearthstonestoves.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/210726_Sales-sheets_Deva-8220.pdf>
>The firebox is 1.6 cubic-ft (or 2765 cubic-inches). Maximum log
>length is 17". Note that there are two fireboxes. One each for oven
>and stove top. Scaling from the overall dimensions, my guess(tm) is
>each firebox is 11 x 14 x 18inches, which is tiny. Cooking on such a
>stove is tricky because the temperature varies as the fire dies down.
>There's an art to properly controlling the temperature and loading
>more fuel at the appropriate time. My guess(tm) is the type of
>firewood is important, but less important than moisture content, air
>control, thermal mass in the oven and how much ash is allowed to build
>up.
>
>>I might add that I earned by first .22, single shot, Winchester, rifle
>>by bucking up cord wood for a month, every afternoon, till supper
>>time, after school when I was 12 years old (:-)
>
>Sounds like you really wanted that rifle. At 12 or so, I helped my
>father keep a small petticoat factory clean.

Well, I did say, "Back in the day" (:-)

I seem to remember, although I am a bit vague about this, that when
supplying wood to paper mills, or maybe excelsior mills, one was paid
by the cord, again 4 ft long pile 4 ft high and 8 feet wide.

But then, my grandfather used to describe distances in "rods" (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 20:28:49 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 06:09:46 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Actually Jeff, a "cord" of wood was, at least back in the day when
>>wood was commonly used for heating, a pile of "cord wood" 4 feet high
>>and 8 feet long. "Cord wood" being 4 foot sections of a tree.
>>
>>After you bought the number of cords of wood that you estimated would
>>need for the winter you then needed to "buck it up" into "stove wood"
>>lengths with a "buck saw" and probably split it.
>
>Times have changed along with firewood definitions. Most references
>today proclaim that a cord is 4 x 4 x 8ft with no specific length for
>the logs because of wide variations in how long a log a specific model
>stove can handle. However, there is a "face cord", which uses 16 inch
>logs and is 4ft x 4ft x 16 inches:
><https://fullservicechimney.com/what-is-a-cord-of-wood/>
>There's also a reference to a "rick", but I've never heard anyone use
>the term locally.
>
>Incidentally, the usual undersized cord of firewood, delivered by the
>local greedy firewood dealer, is referred to as a "metric cord".
>
>There's also a crane log gripper, which grips the log using teeth that
>wrap around the log. Something like this:
><https://www.google.com/search?q=crane+log+gripper&tbm=isch>
>It's sometimes referred to as a "tree hugger" in honor of the
>ecologists.
>
>>And a sensible chap would have bought two different types of wood,
>>some pine, or other soft wood, and some oak, maple, or other hard
>>woods. To do different would certainly invoke the ire of one's wife,
>>or mother in law, who was ever doing the cooking, as certainly two
>>types of wood are needed for a quick hot flame and longer lasting
>>"baking" fire.
>
>Yep. That would be a problem. However, the "stove wood" for a cook
>stove are not the large logs meant for heating the entire house. The
>typical cast iron stove has a small firebox that takes sticks, twigs,
>small branches, and shavings. Here's a modern example:
><https://www.hearthstonestoves.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/210726_Sales-sheets_Deva-8220.pdf>
>The firebox is 1.6 cubic-ft (or 2765 cubic-inches). Maximum log
>length is 17". Note that there are two fireboxes. One each for oven
>and stove top. Scaling from the overall dimensions, my guess(tm) is
>each firebox is 11 x 14 x 18inches, which is tiny. Cooking on such a
>stove is tricky because the temperature varies as the fire dies down.
>There's an art to properly controlling the temperature and loading
>more fuel at the appropriate time. My guess(tm) is the type of
>firewood is important, but less important than moisture content, air
>control, thermal mass in the oven and how much ash is allowed to build
>up.
>
>>I might add that I earned by first .22, single shot, Winchester, rifle
>>by bucking up cord wood for a month, every afternoon, till supper
>>time, after school when I was 12 years old (:-)
>
>Sounds like you really wanted that rifle. At 12 or so, I helped my
>father keep a small petticoat factory clean.

Well, I did say, "Back in the day" (:-)

I seem to remember, although I am a bit vague about this, that when
supplying wood to paper mills, or maybe excelsior mills, one was paid
by the cord, again 4 ft long pile 4 ft high and 8 feet wide.

But then, my grandfather used to describe distances in "rods" (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 5:44:02 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 06:12:05 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 4:28:45 PM UTC-5, Andre Jute wrote:
> >> On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 7:07:26 PM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>
> >> > Tom, there MUST be political discussion groups where you can rant on
> >> > topic, instead of poisoning all discussions here.
> >> >
> >> > Your political views are obviously not getting much approval here. Take
> >> > your political crap elsewhere where you have a slight chance to be a
> >> > hero instead of a fool.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > - Frank Krygowski
> >> >
> >> Who appointed you gatekeeper of RBT, scumbag?
> >
> >Who appointed kunich the fascist paramilitary who constantly threatens physical violence, scumbag?
> >
> >> >
> >> Andre Jute
> >> This jerk Krygowski is incapable of learning anything.
> >
> >This impotent twit jute is incapable of engaging anyone without hateful rhetoric.
> Goodness! You are referring to this bloke who lives in the low rent
> district of Ireland, the famous author who is reduced to
> self-publishing and selling his great works on Amazon, the chap that
> built the electric bicycle because he couldn't afford the road tax for
> a motor scooter, as a TWIT?
>
> Too kind Sir! Too kind.
> --

To be perfectly accurate, I wrote "impotent twit" - a somewhat emergent phrase.

On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 6:09:56 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 08:13:55 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
> >On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:38:49 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> ><fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 1:53:20 AM UTC, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> About 1.5 cords:
> >>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/firewood-2011.jpg>
> >>>
> >>> BTW. The current price for a delivered cord of 14" or 15" oak or
> >>> madrone firewood $600.
> >
> >>Okay, I'll bite. How is "a cord" determined? Is it a fixed weight? Or a fixed volume, like so many F150 loads? Or enough wood to make x BTUs when efficiently burned?
> >
> >It's suppose to be a neatly stacked woodpile.
> >Nominally 4ft x 4ft x 8ft = 128 cubic-feet.
> >However, that's subject to far too much creative interpretation. To
> >the buyer, the wood is stacked tightly, with little airspace. To the
> >seller, it's whatever is randomly thrown into the back of their pickup
> >truck with plywood on the sides to allow for the 4ft height. Extra
> >creativity for not allowing for the loss from rear tire wheel wells,
> >tool boxes, and debris in the truck. Even when stacked, measurement
> >is done with a tape measure. My piles are a bit of a problem as
> >they're on a slight grade or hillside. The final determination is
> >usually settled by guesswork and haggling. I'll spare you the horror
> >stories, but I don't recall getting a genuine full cord of firewood in
> >the last 15 years. Some of my wood piles are features at:
> ><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/>
> >
> Actually Jeff, a "cord" of wood was, at least back in the day when
> wood was commonly used for heating, a pile of "cord wood" 4 feet high
> and 8 feet long. "Cord wood" being 4 foot sections of a tree.
>
> After you bought the number of cords of wood that you estimated would
> need for the winter you then needed to "buck it up" into "stove wood"
> lengths with a "buck saw" and probably split it.
>
> And a sensible chap would have bought two different types of wood,
> some pine, or other soft wood, and some oak, maple, or other hard
> woods. To do different would certainly invoke the ire of one's wife,
> or mother in law, who was ever doing the cooking, as certainly two
> types of wood are needed for a quick hot flame and longer lasting
> "baking" fire.
>
> I might add that I earned by first .22, single shot, Winchester, rifle
> by bucking up cord wood for a month, every afternoon, till supper
> time, after school when I was 12 years old (:-)
> --

North-east massachusetts Where I grew up is dotted with many many apple orchards. My first paying "job" at the age of 14 was picking 'drops' after school for 25¢ a bushel IIRC. The orchard would send a stake-body truck (no seats) to the high school and pick up whoever wanted to go make a few bucks to pick up apples until dark, then the truck would drive us back to the school for our parents to pick us up. I don't recall my parents having to sign a release, but I could be wrong about that. The point of the story being we would just sit in the back of the truck with no seatbelts for the short ride to the orchard. Of course today riding in the back of an open-body vehicle with no restraining system is illegal. I have no idea how people ever survived to adulthood back then with all that risky behaviour ;)

On 1/28/2022 8:13 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> Incidentally, we have a local faction that is trying to get the
> government(s) to ban burning firewood. They were having some success,
> especially after getting the state to subsidize firewood to propane
> gas stove replacements. The recent rise in propane prices put an end
> to that and the market value for wood burning stoves has greatly
> improved.

When I was in Vermont last year, I went by an electrical generating
plant where locals bring their wood to be burned
<https://www.burlingtonelectric.com/wastewood/>. The upside is that they
capture the ash when they burn the wood. In the Bay Area, there are
"Spare the Air Days" when wood burning is prohibited because wood
burning is so bad for air quality.

Still, even with propane prices higher, if you are going out to buy
firewood then propane is cheaper. If you're getting wood for free then
it's a different story.

On 1/29/2022 7:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> ... The point of the story being we would just sit in the back of the
truck with no seatbelts for the short ride to the orchard. Of course
today riding in the back of an open-body vehicle with no restraining
system is illegal. I have no idea how people ever survived to adulthood
back then with all that risky behaviour ;)

Yep. Safety inflation.

Having said that, I did know one teenager who died by falling out of the
bed of a pickup truck.

But that truck was being driven by another teenager, no telling how
recklessly. Rather than seat belts, we could save many lives by
prohibiting driving by teenagers.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/29/2022 7:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> ... The point of the story being we would just sit in the back of the
> truck with no seatbelts for the short ride to the orchard. Of course
> today riding in the back of an open-body vehicle with no restraining
> system is illegal. I have no idea how people ever survived to adulthood
> back then with all that risky behaviour ;)
>
> Yep. Safety inflation.
>
> Having said that, I did know one teenager who died by falling out of the
> bed of a pickup truck.
>
> But that truck was being driven by another teenager, no telling how
> recklessly. Rather than seat belts, we could save many lives by
> prohibiting driving by teenagers.
>
>

Or by prohibiting teenagers :-)

On 1/29/2022 3:16 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> I've always been frugal (cheap) and scrounge for much of my firewood.
> Last year, I traded 3/4 cord of semi-rotten firewood for some computer
> repair work. In the past, I've used construction scrap, bundled
> twigs, pallets, impossible to split logs, stumps, twigs, sawdust,
> rolled newsprint, etc.

I can't find it online, but ISTR an article from some years ago about a
man who heated his entire home by burning newspapers he subscribed to.

These days I guess you'd do that using heat from one's electronic
device. Much more difficult.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 03:48:50 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 5:44:02 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 06:12:05 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 4:28:45 PM UTC-5, Andre Jute wrote:
>> >> On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 7:07:26 PM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Tom, there MUST be political discussion groups where you can rant on
>> >> > topic, instead of poisoning all discussions here.
>> >> >
>> >> > Your political views are obviously not getting much approval here. Take
>> >> > your political crap elsewhere where you have a slight chance to be a
>> >> > hero instead of a fool.
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > - Frank Krygowski
>> >> >
>> >> Who appointed you gatekeeper of RBT, scumbag?
>> >
>> >Who appointed kunich the fascist paramilitary who constantly threatens physical violence, scumbag?
>> >
>> >> >
>> >> Andre Jute
>> >> This jerk Krygowski is incapable of learning anything.
>> >
>> >This impotent twit jute is incapable of engaging anyone without hateful rhetoric.
>> Goodness! You are referring to this bloke who lives in the low rent
>> district of Ireland, the famous author who is reduced to
>> self-publishing and selling his great works on Amazon, the chap that
>> built the electric bicycle because he couldn't afford the road tax for
>> a motor scooter, as a TWIT?
>>
>> Too kind Sir! Too kind.
>> --
>
>To be perfectly accurate, I wrote "impotent twit" - a somewhat emergent phrase.

(:-)
Well, to be accurate "impotent" could simply mean, that he "can't get
it up any more"and after all I read that he was born in 1945 so it
probably is simply a statement of fact.
(:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 04:03:24 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 6:09:56 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 08:13:55 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>> wrote:
>> >On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:38:49 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
>> ><fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 1:53:20 AM UTC, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >>> About 1.5 cords:
>> >>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/firewood-2011.jpg>
>> >>>
>> >>> BTW. The current price for a delivered cord of 14" or 15" oak or
>> >>> madrone firewood $600.
>> >
>> >>Okay, I'll bite. How is "a cord" determined? Is it a fixed weight? Or a fixed volume, like so many F150 loads? Or enough wood to make x BTUs when efficiently burned?
>> >
>> >It's suppose to be a neatly stacked woodpile.
>> >Nominally 4ft x 4ft x 8ft = 128 cubic-feet.
>> >However, that's subject to far too much creative interpretation. To
>> >the buyer, the wood is stacked tightly, with little airspace. To the
>> >seller, it's whatever is randomly thrown into the back of their pickup
>> >truck with plywood on the sides to allow for the 4ft height. Extra
>> >creativity for not allowing for the loss from rear tire wheel wells,
>> >tool boxes, and debris in the truck. Even when stacked, measurement
>> >is done with a tape measure. My piles are a bit of a problem as
>> >they're on a slight grade or hillside. The final determination is
>> >usually settled by guesswork and haggling. I'll spare you the horror
>> >stories, but I don't recall getting a genuine full cord of firewood in
>> >the last 15 years. Some of my wood piles are features at:
>> ><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/>
>> >
>> Actually Jeff, a "cord" of wood was, at least back in the day when
>> wood was commonly used for heating, a pile of "cord wood" 4 feet high
>> and 8 feet long. "Cord wood" being 4 foot sections of a tree.
>>
>> After you bought the number of cords of wood that you estimated would
>> need for the winter you then needed to "buck it up" into "stove wood"
>> lengths with a "buck saw" and probably split it.
>>
>> And a sensible chap would have bought two different types of wood,
>> some pine, or other soft wood, and some oak, maple, or other hard
>> woods. To do different would certainly invoke the ire of one's wife,
>> or mother in law, who was ever doing the cooking, as certainly two
>> types of wood are needed for a quick hot flame and longer lasting
>> "baking" fire.
>>
>> I might add that I earned by first .22, single shot, Winchester, rifle
>> by bucking up cord wood for a month, every afternoon, till supper
>> time, after school when I was 12 years old (:-)
>> --
>
>North-east massachusetts Where I grew up is dotted with many many apple orchards. My first paying "job" at the age of 14 was picking 'drops' after school for 25¢ a bushel IIRC. The orchard would send a stake-body truck (no seats) to the high school and pick up whoever wanted to go make a few bucks to pick up apples until dark, then the truck would drive us back to the school for our parents to pick us up. I don't recall my parents having to sign a release, but I could be wrong about that. The point of the story being we would just sit in the back of the truck with no seatbelts for the short ride to the orchard. Of course today riding in the back of an open-body vehicle with no restraining system is illegal. I have no idea how people ever survived to adulthood back then with all that risky behaviour ;)

Yup, and kids used to be sent out, weaponless, to chase the cows back
into the barn at milking time, and the really oppressive weeding the
garden instead of frolicking down at the "swimming hole" and some poor
little fellows had to mow the lawn"... with a human powered mowing
machine.

And some people used to actually beat their children when the little
darlings did some totally meaningless little thing... After all, it is
perfectly natural for a child to fall down on the floor, kick his feet
and scream when his mother won't by him the toy that he/she/it
deserves.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 11:54:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/29/2022 7:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> ... The point of the story being we would just sit in the back of the
>truck with no seatbelts for the short ride to the orchard. Of course
>today riding in the back of an open-body vehicle with no restraining
>system is illegal. I have no idea how people ever survived to adulthood
> back then with all that risky behaviour ;)
>
>Yep. Safety inflation.
>
>Having said that, I did know one teenager who died by falling out of the
>bed of a pickup truck.
>
>But that truck was being driven by another teenager, no telling how
>recklessly. Rather than seat belts, we could save many lives by
>prohibiting driving by teenagers.

Right, and if we get rid of the bicycles that is another 8 of
900 lives a year saved, and of course the playground equipment, and my
personal complaint, ladders, and as Andrew points out there are
excessive deaths caused by infections IN hospitals so we get rid of
those, and (I could go on and on and on) everybody would be safe.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 12:16:07 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 08:01:54 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 1/28/2022 8:13 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>> Incidentally, we have a local faction that is trying to get the
>>> government(s) to ban burning firewood. They were having some success,
>>> especially after getting the state to subsidize firewood to propane
>>> gas stove replacements. The recent rise in propane prices put an end
>>> to that and the market value for wood burning stoves has greatly
>>> improved.
>
>>When I was in Vermont last year, I went by an electrical generating
>>plant where locals bring their wood to be burned
>><https://www.burlingtonelectric.com/wastewood/>. The upside is that they
>>capture the ash when they burn the wood.
>
>I was thinking of buying or building an electrostatic precipitator:
><https://www.google.com/search?q=electrostatic+precipitator+for+home+wood+stove>
><https://www.google.com/search?q=electrostatic+precipitator+for+home+wood+stove&tbm=isch>
>
>"Particle Filter System for Stoves and Fireplaces"
><https://enervex.com/systems/particle-filter-system-for-stoves-and-fireplaces>
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlj7n8VRcsQ>
>The power consumption is 60 watts when running plus about 3 watts in
>standby (for self cleaning). At $0.20/kw-hr and 10 hrs/day operation,
>electricity cost would be approximately:
> $0.20/kw-hr * 0.060kw * 10hrs/day = $0.12/day or $3.60/month
>I can't find my pricing information but I vaguely recall about $600
>USD. I keep waving the literature at various local officials. They
>take the papers, but apparently don't read them because the next year,
>they again profess ignorance when I again present the same literature.
>To the best of my limited knowledge, there are no local electrostatic
>precipitators installed locally.
>
>>In the Bay Area, there are
>>"Spare the Air Days" when wood burning is prohibited because wood
>>burning is so bad for air quality.
>
>It's not just wood burning, but car exhausts, trash burning, power
>generation, industrial smoke, smoldering forest fires, etc. Wood
>burning is just one of many sources:
>See "Why does California have the worst air quality?" section.
><https://www.iqair.com/us/usa/california>
>Notice that wood burning isn't even mentioned.
>
>>Still, even with propane prices higher, if you are going out to buy
>>firewood then propane is cheaper. If you're getting wood for free then
>>it's a different story.
>
>I've always been frugal (cheap) and scrounge for much of my firewood.
>Last year, I traded 3/4 cord of semi-rotten firewood for some computer
>repair work. In the past, I've used construction scrap, bundled
>twigs, pallets, impossible to split logs, stumps, twigs, sawdust,
>rolled newsprint, etc. I don't burn anything that's been pressure
>treated or painted. This year, the 2020 CZU fire and a later wind
>storm contributed quite a bit of usable firewood, some of which I have
>yet to cut, split and stack. I typically burn about 2 cords and save
>about 1/2 cord for the next year.
>
>If I decided to purchase most my firewood at the current price, my
>annual heating cost would be (for a 5 month burn season):
> $600/cord * 2.5 cords = $1,500/year
>I don't have enough information to compare that to propane, electric,
>natural gas, or heating oil.

Or, you could just buy a set of long underwear which Amazon sells for
$20 and go on about your business (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:17:57 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/29/2022 3:16 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>
>> I've always been frugal (cheap) and scrounge for much of my firewood.
>> Last year, I traded 3/4 cord of semi-rotten firewood for some computer
>> repair work. In the past, I've used construction scrap, bundled
>> twigs, pallets, impossible to split logs, stumps, twigs, sawdust,
>> rolled newsprint, etc.
>
>I can't find it online, but ISTR an article from some years ago about a
>man who heated his entire home by burning newspapers he subscribed to.
>
>These days I guess you'd do that using heat from one's electronic
>device. Much more difficult.

Well, back in the day, no one, at least in the upper New England
states (no telling what them foreigners down in Massachusetts did)
ever heated their house during the cooler months of the year. Of
course, the kitchen was heated, one had to cook their food, but why in
the world would one want to heat the rest of the house? The Preacher
didn't "come to call" who'd want to flounder around in 3 - 4 feet of
snow, so you didn't need to heat the "front room" and of course one
had one's flannel night shirts/gowns so the bedrooms didn't need heat.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/29/2022 12:16 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 08:01:54 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 1/28/2022 8:13 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Incidentally, we have a local faction that is trying to get the
>>> government(s) to ban burning firewood. They were having some success,
>>> especially after getting the state to subsidize firewood to propane
>>> gas stove replacements. The recent rise in propane prices put an end
>>> to that and the market value for wood burning stoves has greatly
>>> improved.
>
>> When I was in Vermont last year, I went by an electrical generating
>> plant where locals bring their wood to be burned
>> <https://www.burlingtonelectric.com/wastewood/>. The upside is that they
>> capture the ash when they burn the wood.
>
> I was thinking of buying or building an electrostatic precipitator:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=electrostatic+precipitator+for+home+wood+stove>
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=electrostatic+precipitator+for+home+wood+stove&tbm=isch>
>
> "Particle Filter System for Stoves and Fireplaces"
> <https://enervex.com/systems/particle-filter-system-for-stoves-and-fireplaces>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlj7n8VRcsQ>
> The power consumption is 60 watts when running plus about 3 watts in
> standby (for self cleaning). At $0.20/kw-hr and 10 hrs/day operation,
> electricity cost would be approximately:
> $0.20/kw-hr * 0.060kw * 10hrs/day = $0.12/day or $3.60/month

I don't think anyone in PG&E territory is paying only $0.20/KWH except
if they're on a separate meter for their electric car. For municipally
owned utilities, like Santa Clara's Silicon Valley Power, it's less than
$0.20/KWH.

You could put in solar but looking at your property in Google Street
View and Google Earth it looks like the tree cover would not make that
practical.

PG&E and the other California investor-owned utilities are trying to get
the legislature to pass a law that eliminates the requirement that they
reimburse power put onto the grid at the retail value. They would be bad
for anyone with a solar installation though of course the utilities are
upset at having to pay up to 10x the wholesale cost for KWH.