On 2/17/2022 1:00 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 13:18:13 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 20:04:08 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 05:43:27 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> (chomp...)
>>>
>>>> "Twist drills" are commonly made as small as #80 which is 0.0135" in
>>>> diameter and while I've had them in the tool box I really can't
>>>> remember ever using one (:-)
>>>
>>> I use the smaller wire gauge drills for cleaning, measuring or
>>> enlarging the carburetor jets used in small engines (chainsaw,
>>> trimmer, generator, etc).
>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Gyros-45-22010-Speed-Steel-Gauge/dp/B000SKVF8I>
>
>> One of the things I "discovered" about small gas engines was not to
>> leave the gasoline in the carburetor when storing the device for any
>> length of time.
>
> That's true with the new and improved fuels that contain ethanol. The
> fuel deteriorates to the point where it will barely burn in a few
> months of storage. If left in the carburetor, the olefins will clog
> everything with a gel like gum or dry out to a crumbly powder. Here's
> the powder I found in a generator:
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2001.jpg>
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2002.jpg>
> The ethanol also absorbs water from the air, which eventually rusts
> the steel parts, like the fuel bowl. The benzene causes the rubber
> gaskets to swell and/or harden.
>
> My chain saws don't use much gasoline, so I use the overpriced
> non-ethanol fuels:
> <https://trufuel50.com>
> <https://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils-lubricants-fuels/premixed-fuel/motomix/>
> <https://www.husqvarna.com/us/fuel-oil-lubricants/2-stroke-pre-mixed-fuel-oil/?article=581158802>
>
> I got sloppy this year and left ethanol (E10) gas in one of my better
> chainsaws for about 4 months. Now, it won't start and probably needs
> to have the carburetor cleaned and/or rebuilt with new rubber parts.
>
> Also, the gasoline I have stored for running my generator has to be
> replaced every 3 or 4 months or it won't run the generator. I dump
> the old gas into my car and buy new gas for the generator.
>
> "The Ugly Truth Why Gas Station Fuel Is Bad For Small Engines"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvps2gF0Sdo>
>
> Sorry about the long rant, but the fuel problem really bothers me.
>
>

As mentioned earlier I have a friend in Milwaukee who drives
40 miles to buy gasoline for small engines as Milwaukee GMA
is within an EPA regulated area for gasoline. In
California, your options for real gasoline are extremely
limited thanks to California's CARB agency.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/17/2022 1:18 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 20:04:08 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 05:43:27 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> (chomp...)
>>
>>> "Twist drills" are commonly made as small as #80 which is 0.0135" in
>>> diameter and while I've had them in the tool box I really can't
>>> remember ever using one (:-)
>>
>> I use the smaller wire gauge drills for cleaning, measuring or
>> enlarging the carburetor jets used in small engines (chainsaw,
>> trimmer, generator, etc).
>> <https://www.amazon.com/Gyros-45-22010-Speed-Steel-Gauge/dp/B000SKVF8I>
>
> One of the things I "discovered" about small gas engines was not to
> leave the gasoline in the carburetor when storing the device for any
> length of time.

I've been doing fine by adding Stabil fuel stabilizer to my lawn mower
in the autumn, and to my rarely used snow blower in the spring.

I do drain the motorcycle's float bowls in late autumn, and put some
Stabil in the gas tank. That's also been working well.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:37:15 PM UTC, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 07:37:33 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >As mentioned earlier I have a friend in Milwaukee who drives
> >40 miles to buy gasoline for small engines as Milwaukee GMA
> >is within an EPA regulated area for gasoline. In
> >California, your options for real gasoline are extremely
> >limited thanks to California's CARB agency.
> It's far from hopeless:
> <https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=CA>
> <https://www.pure-gas.org/extensions/maps.jsp?statecode=CA>
> However, the map changes frequently. I was seriously considering
> driving the 150 miles to the nearest gas station but decided instead
> to try removing the ethanol from the local fuel. I'll leave out the
> details, but basically it didn't work as expected. The main problem
> is that the water absorption method removes the ethanol, but not the
> elefins (alkenes) and benzene which are the major culprits.
>
> It's possible to buy non-ethanol racing fuel. I have no experience
> with these. For example:
> <https://vpracingfuels.com/product/c9/?c=220&>
>
> For 2 cycle engines, Walbro makes spiral metal diaphragms that
> probably will last forever:
> <https://www.walbro.com/spiraldiaphragm/>
> However, that does nothing to prevent the fuel from gumming up or
> varnishing the carburetor.
>
> For 4 cycle generators, I prefer to convert them to run on propane or
> natural gas. This works very well for stationary generators with
> auto-start. For the smaller gasoline generators, I store them empty.
> I install a petcock on the tank and carb bowl to help drain the fuel.
> However, that only works with plastic gas tanks. The steel tanks will
> flash rust if exposed to air. Emptying and refilling is a PITA, but
> for generators that are only used a few times per year, it works well
> enough.
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>
Those fascists in Kalifornia who killed hot-rodding deserve to be defenestrated. AJ

On 2/17/2022 11:37 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 07:37:33 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> As mentioned earlier I have a friend in Milwaukee who drives
>> 40 miles to buy gasoline for small engines as Milwaukee GMA
>> is within an EPA regulated area for gasoline. In
>> California, your options for real gasoline are extremely
>> limited thanks to California's CARB agency.
>
> It's far from hopeless:
> <https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=CA>
> <https://www.pure-gas.org/extensions/maps.jsp?statecode=CA>
> However, the map changes frequently. I was seriously considering
> driving the 150 miles to the nearest gas station but decided instead
> to try removing the ethanol from the local fuel. I'll leave out the
> details, but basically it didn't work as expected. The main problem
> is that the water absorption method removes the ethanol, but not the
> elefins (alkenes) and benzene which are the major culprits.
>
> It's possible to buy non-ethanol racing fuel. I have no experience
> with these. For example:
> <https://vpracingfuels.com/product/c9/?c=220&>

I wonder if Laguna Seca sells ethanol-free fuel since VPRacing is the
company that supplies the fuel there. I read one post, from a long time
ago, that motorcyclists used to go to Laguna Seca to buy ethanol-free fuel.

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 8:49:33 PM UTC, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 11:56:23 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Those fascists in Kalifornia who killed hot-rodding deserve to be defenestrated. AJ
> It won't happen. Most of the windows in California do not open
> sufficiently to allow even a small fascist to pass. This change was
> made in skyscrapers to improve curtain glass wall strength and in
> homes to save on energy costs. This has eliminated defenstration as a
> means of political protest:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestrations_of_Prague>
> Fortunately, there are alternative means of political protest
> available which do not involve violence or energy loss.
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>
More's the pity. Thanks for a list of rational contra-indicators, Jeff. Still, said about hot-rodding, which in my opinion was a great American art form. -- AJ

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:47:56 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 8:49:33 PM UTC, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 11:56:23 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> > <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Those fascists in Kalifornia who killed hot-rodding deserve to be defenestrated. AJ
> > It won't happen. Most of the windows in California do not open
> > sufficiently to allow even a small fascist to pass. This change was
> > made in skyscrapers to improve curtain glass wall strength and in
> > homes to save on energy costs. This has eliminated defenstration as a
> > means of political protest:
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestrations_of_Prague>
> > Fortunately, there are alternative means of political protest
> > available which do not involve violence or energy loss.
> > --
> > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> >
> More's the pity. Thanks for a list of rational contra-indicators, Jeff. Still, said about hot-rodding, which in my opinion was a great American art form. -- AJ

Unfortunately the artists are rapidly aging and soon Hot Rods will be little more than a memory as are Rembrandt and Tiffany. The left knows nothing save how to make the world an uglier place to suit their own inherent unsophistication.

On 2022-02-17, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 2/17/2022 11:37 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 07:37:33 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> As mentioned earlier I have a friend in Milwaukee who drives
>>> 40 miles to buy gasoline for small engines as Milwaukee GMA
>>> is within an EPA regulated area for gasoline. In
>>> California, your options for real gasoline are extremely
>>> limited thanks to California's CARB agency.
>>
>> It's far from hopeless:
>> <https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=CA>
>> <https://www.pure-gas.org/extensions/maps.jsp?statecode=CA>
>> However, the map changes frequently. I was seriously considering
>> driving the 150 miles to the nearest gas station but decided instead
>> to try removing the ethanol from the local fuel. I'll leave out the
>> details, but basically it didn't work as expected. The main problem
>> is that the water absorption method removes the ethanol, but not the
>> elefins (alkenes) and benzene which are the major culprits.
>>
>> It's possible to buy non-ethanol racing fuel. I have no experience
>> with these. For example:
>> <https://vpracingfuels.com/product/c9/?c=220&>
>
> I wonder if Laguna Seca sells ethanol-free fuel since VPRacing is the
> company that supplies the fuel there. I read one post, from a long time
> ago, that motorcyclists used to go to Laguna Seca to buy ethanol-free fuel.
>

A bigger question for me is where can I get "white gas" in bulk (as in my
childhood for about twenty-five cents per gallono) for the Coleman lanterns
and stoves I have....

pH

My main hobby, besides bike riding, is restoring old cars. That's about as close to artsy-craftsy as I get, but I have convinced myself that it is pretty darned artsy. Now, I am of that age wherein I rather deplore the rat rod movement. I think it is just an easy excuse for not doing the bodywork and painting the car properly. If you don't have enough money to get the work done, just admit that the car's ugly and don't try to pretend otherwise. Or learn to do the work yourself. But it's hard to learn all the different mechanical and metalwork skills because there are so many aspects to restoration. Most of my buddies have always been gearheads, and I am always trying to play catch up because I was working as a shyster when they were working on cars.

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 11:52:09 PM UTC, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:47:50 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >More's the pity. Thanks for a list of rational contra-indicators, Jeff. Still, said about hot-rodding, which in my opinion was a great American art form. -- AJ
> Rumors as to the demise of hot rods in California have been greatly
> exaggerated:
> <http://www.hotrodsatthebeach.com>
> They've even invaded the posh Pebble Beach Concours d'Opulence:
> <https://www.motortrend.com/features/hot-rods-invade-pebble-beach/>
>
Fascinating. I wonder what the fellow in the 1950s mint green European GT coupe thought when he had to wait in line with the hotrods. -- AJ

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:24:36 AM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 23:00:07 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 13:18:13 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 20:04:08 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 05:43:27 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >>>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>(chomp...)
> >>>
> >>>>"Twist drills" are commonly made as small as #80 which is 0.0135" in
> >>>>diameter and while I've had them in the tool box I really can't
> >>>>remember ever using one (:-)
> >>>
> >>>I use the smaller wire gauge drills for cleaning, measuring or
> >>>enlarging the carburetor jets used in small engines (chainsaw,
> >>>trimmer, generator, etc).
> >>><https://www.amazon.com/Gyros-45-22010-Speed-Steel-Gauge/dp/B000SKVF8I>
> >
> >>One of the things I "discovered" about small gas engines was not to
> >>leave the gasoline in the carburetor when storing the device for any
> >>length of time.
> >
> >That's true with the new and improved fuels that contain ethanol. The
> >fuel deteriorates to the point where it will barely burn in a few
> >months of storage. If left in the carburetor, the olefins will clog
> >everything with a gel like gum or dry out to a crumbly powder. Here's
> >the powder I found in a generator:
> ><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2001.jpg>
> ><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2002.jpg>
> >The ethanol also absorbs water from the air, which eventually rusts
> >the steel parts, like the fuel bowl. The benzene causes the rubber
> >gaskets to swell and/or harden.
> >
> >My chain saws don't use much gasoline, so I use the overpriced
> >non-ethanol fuels:
> ><https://trufuel50.com>
> ><https://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils-lubricants-fuels/premixed-fuel/motomix/>
> ><https://www.husqvarna.com/us/fuel-oil-lubricants/2-stroke-pre-mixed-fuel-oil/?article=581158802>
> >
> >I got sloppy this year and left ethanol (E10) gas in one of my better
> >chainsaws for about 4 months. Now, it won't start and probably needs
> >to have the carburetor cleaned and/or rebuilt with new rubber parts.
> >
> >Also, the gasoline I have stored for running my generator has to be
> >replaced every 3 or 4 months or it won't run the generator. I dump
> >the old gas into my car and buy new gas for the generator.
> >
> >"The Ugly Truth Why Gas Station Fuel Is Bad For Small Engines"
> ><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvps2gF0Sdo>
> >
> >Sorry about the long rant, but the fuel problem really bothers me.
> Somewhere I read that "real" gasoline is available as "aviation gas",
> avgas, which is essentially pure gasoline with tetra-ethyl lead as the
> anti knock additive although some is low lead (LL) and I think that
> 100 octane is common. And I came across "racing gasoline" also
>
> I think if I were using small gasoline engines to any extent I would
> look into it.
>
> I wonder whether this might be a "developed" country problem as we
> used small gas engines extensively, chain saws and outboard motors
> mostly, in remote areas of Indonesia with no problems. (:-)

One big difference might be in Indonesia there is no cold season. So the small engines (lawn mowers, chainsaws, snow blowers) do not get put away in the shed or garage and not started or run for 6 months. I think the ethanol and less than pure gas problems come about due to sitting. If you run the engine frequently then the evil ethanol gas does no harm at all. To regular sized engines or small chainsaw type engines.

>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 5:09:17 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:47:56 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 8:49:33 PM UTC, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 11:56:23 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> > > <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Those fascists in Kalifornia who killed hot-rodding deserve to be defenestrated. AJ
> > > It won't happen. Most of the windows in California do not open
> > > sufficiently to allow even a small fascist to pass. This change was
> > > made in skyscrapers to improve curtain glass wall strength and in
> > > homes to save on energy costs. This has eliminated defenstration as a
> > > means of political protest:
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestrations_of_Prague>
> > > Fortunately, there are alternative means of political protest
> > > available which do not involve violence or energy loss.
> > > --
> > > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> > >
> > More's the pity. Thanks for a list of rational contra-indicators, Jeff. Still, said about hot-rodding, which in my opinion was a great American art form. -- AJ
> Unfortunately the artists are rapidly aging and soon Hot Rods will be little more than a memory as are Rembrandt and Tiffany. The left knows nothing save how to make the world an uglier place to suit their own inherent unsophistication.

I doubt anyone is going to forget Rembrandt. His most famous painting, the Night Watch, is located in the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam. Lou will have to tell us if he has seen the painting and museum. As for Tiffany, its a New York City jeweler. And retailer of other items too. Whatever they wanted to put their name on. I never thought of Tiffany as being that special since they themselves did not make anything. They just bought stuff from others and branded it with their label. I think back in the Renaissance period some of the famous artists had their slaves, apprentices, understudy do all or almost all the work on statues and paintings and then they claimed it was all them. Just like Tiffany.

On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 23:40:02 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:24:36 AM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 23:00:07 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 13:18:13 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 20:04:08 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>> >>wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 05:43:27 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>> >>>wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>(chomp...)
>> >>>
>> >>>>"Twist drills" are commonly made as small as #80 which is 0.0135" in
>> >>>>diameter and while I've had them in the tool box I really can't
>> >>>>remember ever using one (:-)
>> >>>
>> >>>I use the smaller wire gauge drills for cleaning, measuring or
>> >>>enlarging the carburetor jets used in small engines (chainsaw,
>> >>>trimmer, generator, etc).
>> >>><https://www.amazon.com/Gyros-45-22010-Speed-Steel-Gauge/dp/B000SKVF8I>
>> >
>> >>One of the things I "discovered" about small gas engines was not to
>> >>leave the gasoline in the carburetor when storing the device for any
>> >>length of time.
>> >
>> >That's true with the new and improved fuels that contain ethanol. The
>> >fuel deteriorates to the point where it will barely burn in a few
>> >months of storage. If left in the carburetor, the olefins will clog
>> >everything with a gel like gum or dry out to a crumbly powder. Here's
>> >the powder I found in a generator:
>> ><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2001.jpg>
>> ><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2002.jpg>
>> >The ethanol also absorbs water from the air, which eventually rusts
>> >the steel parts, like the fuel bowl. The benzene causes the rubber
>> >gaskets to swell and/or harden.
>> >
>> >My chain saws don't use much gasoline, so I use the overpriced
>> >non-ethanol fuels:
>> ><https://trufuel50.com>
>> ><https://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils-lubricants-fuels/premixed-fuel/motomix/>
>> ><https://www.husqvarna.com/us/fuel-oil-lubricants/2-stroke-pre-mixed-fuel-oil/?article=581158802>
>> >
>> >I got sloppy this year and left ethanol (E10) gas in one of my better
>> >chainsaws for about 4 months. Now, it won't start and probably needs
>> >to have the carburetor cleaned and/or rebuilt with new rubber parts.
>> >
>> >Also, the gasoline I have stored for running my generator has to be
>> >replaced every 3 or 4 months or it won't run the generator. I dump
>> >the old gas into my car and buy new gas for the generator.
>> >
>> >"The Ugly Truth Why Gas Station Fuel Is Bad For Small Engines"
>> ><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvps2gF0Sdo>
>> >
>> >Sorry about the long rant, but the fuel problem really bothers me.
>> Somewhere I read that "real" gasoline is available as "aviation gas",
>> avgas, which is essentially pure gasoline with tetra-ethyl lead as the
>> anti knock additive although some is low lead (LL) and I think that
>> 100 octane is common. And I came across "racing gasoline" also
>>
>> I think if I were using small gasoline engines to any extent I would
>> look into it.
>>
>> I wonder whether this might be a "developed" country problem as we
>> used small gas engines extensively, chain saws and outboard motors
>> mostly, in remote areas of Indonesia with no problems. (:-)
>
>One big difference might be in Indonesia there is no cold season. So the small engines (lawn mowers, chainsaws, snow blowers) do not get put away in the shed or garage and not started or run for 6 months. I think the ethanol and less than pure gas problems come about due to sitting. If you run the engine frequently then the evil ethanol gas does no harm at all. To regular sized engines or small chainsaw type engines.
>

Errr.... not too many snow blowers in tropical countries (:-)

The usual practice was a, say 500 gal, or maybe larger, storage tank
at the base camp which got filled when the fuel barge" came in which
might be months between refilling so basically you are talking about
fairly long storage in a hot, damp, climate. I don't know whether the
lack of problems was due to it being "pure" gasoline or lack of
temperature change, or whatever, but in about 20 years I can't
remember ever having any fuel problems with small engines.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 2/18/2022 2:50 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 5:09:17 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Unfortunately the artists are rapidly aging and soon Hot Rods will be little more than a memory as are Rembrandt and Tiffany. The left knows nothing save how to make the world an uglier place to suit their own inherent unsophistication.
>
> I doubt anyone is going to forget Rembrandt. His most famous painting, the Night Watch, is located in the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam. Lou will have to tell us if he has seen the painting and museum.

Well, I have.

And its a bit ludicrous to put hot rods in the same bucket as Rembrandt
and Tiffany. After the first 100 Ford Model As had their roof lowered
(or "chopped") the hot rodders had nothing more artistic to say. Sure
they were "cool" for a while. But so was dancing disco in sequined
suits. Their time has passed. Let the Model As be Model As.

(It's funny whenever Tom gives remarks about "memory"!)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/18/2022 4:14 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 23:40:02 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:24:36 AM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 23:00:07 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 13:18:13 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 20:04:08 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 05:43:27 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (chomp...)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Twist drills" are commonly made as small as #80 which is 0.0135" in
>>>>>>> diameter and while I've had them in the tool box I really can't
>>>>>>> remember ever using one (:-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I use the smaller wire gauge drills for cleaning, measuring or
>>>>>> enlarging the carburetor jets used in small engines (chainsaw,
>>>>>> trimmer, generator, etc).
>>>>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Gyros-45-22010-Speed-Steel-Gauge/dp/B000SKVF8I>
>>>>
>>>>> One of the things I "discovered" about small gas engines was not to
>>>>> leave the gasoline in the carburetor when storing the device for any
>>>>> length of time.
>>>>
>>>> That's true with the new and improved fuels that contain ethanol. The
>>>> fuel deteriorates to the point where it will barely burn in a few
>>>> months of storage. If left in the carburetor, the olefins will clog
>>>> everything with a gel like gum or dry out to a crumbly powder. Here's
>>>> the powder I found in a generator:
>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2001.jpg>
>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2002.jpg>
>>>> The ethanol also absorbs water from the air, which eventually rusts
>>>> the steel parts, like the fuel bowl. The benzene causes the rubber
>>>> gaskets to swell and/or harden.
>>>>
>>>> My chain saws don't use much gasoline, so I use the overpriced
>>>> non-ethanol fuels:
>>>> <https://trufuel50.com>
>>>> <https://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils-lubricants-fuels/premixed-fuel/motomix/>
>>>> <https://www.husqvarna.com/us/fuel-oil-lubricants/2-stroke-pre-mixed-fuel-oil/?article=581158802>
>>>>
>>>> I got sloppy this year and left ethanol (E10) gas in one of my better
>>>> chainsaws for about 4 months. Now, it won't start and probably needs
>>>> to have the carburetor cleaned and/or rebuilt with new rubber parts.
>>>>
>>>> Also, the gasoline I have stored for running my generator has to be
>>>> replaced every 3 or 4 months or it won't run the generator. I dump
>>>> the old gas into my car and buy new gas for the generator.
>>>>
>>>> "The Ugly Truth Why Gas Station Fuel Is Bad For Small Engines"
>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvps2gF0Sdo>
>>>>
>>>> Sorry about the long rant, but the fuel problem really bothers me.
>>> Somewhere I read that "real" gasoline is available as "aviation gas",
>>> avgas, which is essentially pure gasoline with tetra-ethyl lead as the
>>> anti knock additive although some is low lead (LL) and I think that
>>> 100 octane is common. And I came across "racing gasoline" also
>>>
>>> I think if I were using small gasoline engines to any extent I would
>>> look into it.
>>>
>>> I wonder whether this might be a "developed" country problem as we
>>> used small gas engines extensively, chain saws and outboard motors
>>> mostly, in remote areas of Indonesia with no problems. (:-)
>>
>> One big difference might be in Indonesia there is no cold season. So the small engines (lawn mowers, chainsaws, snow blowers) do not get put away in the shed or garage and not started or run for 6 months. I think the ethanol and less than pure gas problems come about due to sitting. If you run the engine frequently then the evil ethanol gas does no harm at all. To regular sized engines or small chainsaw type engines.
>>
>
>
>
> Errr.... not too many snow blowers in tropical countries (:-)
>
> The usual practice was a, say 500 gal, or maybe larger, storage tank
> at the base camp which got filled when the fuel barge" came in which
> might be months between refilling so basically you are talking about
> fairly long storage in a hot, damp, climate. I don't know whether the
> lack of problems was due to it being "pure" gasoline or lack of
> temperature change, or whatever, but in about 20 years I can't
> remember ever having any fuel problems with small engines.

Was ethanol in gasoline then?

Come to think of it, is ethanol in Thai gas even now?

To me, the idea of ethanol in gas seems really questionable. I assumed
we were doing it largely to get votes from farmers. Is this happening
elsewhere?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 8:50:35 AM UTC+1, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> I doubt anyone is going to forget Rembrandt. His most famous painting, the Night Watch, is located in the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam. Lou will have to tell us if he has seen the painting and museum.

Of coarse. It is impressive like all the paintings of Rembrandt and other Dutch masters in the Rijksmuseum.

Lou

On 2/18/2022 10:52 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/18/2022 4:14 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 23:40:02 -0800 (PST),
>> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:24:36 AM UTC-6, John
>>> B. wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 23:00:07 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
>>>> <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 13:18:13 +0700, John B.
>>>>> <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 20:04:08 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
>>>>>> <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 05:43:27 +0700, John B.
>>>>>>> <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (chomp...)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Twist drills" are commonly made as small as #80
>>>>>>>> which is 0.0135" in
>>>>>>>> diameter and while I've had them in the tool box I
>>>>>>>> really can't
>>>>>>>> remember ever using one (:-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I use the smaller wire gauge drills for cleaning,
>>>>>>> measuring or
>>>>>>> enlarging the carburetor jets used in small engines
>>>>>>> (chainsaw,
>>>>>>> trimmer, generator, etc).
>>>>>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Gyros-45-22010-Speed-Steel-Gauge/dp/B000SKVF8I>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> One of the things I "discovered" about small gas
>>>>>> engines was not to
>>>>>> leave the gasoline in the carburetor when storing the
>>>>>> device for any
>>>>>> length of time.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's true with the new and improved fuels that
>>>>> contain ethanol. The
>>>>> fuel deteriorates to the point where it will barely
>>>>> burn in a few
>>>>> months of storage. If left in the carburetor, the
>>>>> olefins will clog
>>>>> everything with a gel like gum or dry out to a crumbly
>>>>> powder. Here's
>>>>> the powder I found in a generator:
>>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2001.jpg>
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2002.jpg>
>>>>>
>>>>> The ethanol also absorbs water from the air, which
>>>>> eventually rusts
>>>>> the steel parts, like the fuel bowl. The benzene causes
>>>>> the rubber
>>>>> gaskets to swell and/or harden.
>>>>>
>>>>> My chain saws don't use much gasoline, so I use the
>>>>> overpriced
>>>>> non-ethanol fuels:
>>>>> <https://trufuel50.com>
>>>>> <https://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils-lubricants-fuels/premixed-fuel/motomix/>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.husqvarna.com/us/fuel-oil-lubricants/2-stroke-pre-mixed-fuel-oil/?article=581158802>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I got sloppy this year and left ethanol (E10) gas in
>>>>> one of my better
>>>>> chainsaws for about 4 months. Now, it won't start and
>>>>> probably needs
>>>>> to have the carburetor cleaned and/or rebuilt with new
>>>>> rubber parts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, the gasoline I have stored for running my
>>>>> generator has to be
>>>>> replaced every 3 or 4 months or it won't run the
>>>>> generator. I dump
>>>>> the old gas into my car and buy new gas for the generator.
>>>>>
>>>>> "The Ugly Truth Why Gas Station Fuel Is Bad For Small
>>>>> Engines"
>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvps2gF0Sdo>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry about the long rant, but the fuel problem really
>>>>> bothers me.
>>>> Somewhere I read that "real" gasoline is available as
>>>> "aviation gas",
>>>> avgas, which is essentially pure gasoline with
>>>> tetra-ethyl lead as the
>>>> anti knock additive although some is low lead (LL) and I
>>>> think that
>>>> 100 octane is common. And I came across "racing
>>>> gasoline" also
>>>>
>>>> I think if I were using small gasoline engines to any
>>>> extent I would
>>>> look into it.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder whether this might be a "developed" country
>>>> problem as we
>>>> used small gas engines extensively, chain saws and
>>>> outboard motors
>>>> mostly, in remote areas of Indonesia with no problems. (:-)
>>>
>>> One big difference might be in Indonesia there is no cold
>>> season. So the small engines (lawn mowers, chainsaws,
>>> snow blowers) do not get put away in the shed or garage
>>> and not started or run for 6 months. I think the ethanol
>>> and less than pure gas problems come about due to
>>> sitting. If you run the engine frequently then the evil
>>> ethanol gas does no harm at all. To regular sized
>>> engines or small chainsaw type engines.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Errr.... not too many snow blowers in tropical countries (:-)
>>
>> The usual practice was a, say 500 gal, or maybe larger,
>> storage tank
>> at the base camp which got filled when the fuel barge"
>> came in which
>> might be months between refilling so basically you are
>> talking about
>> fairly long storage in a hot, damp, climate. I don't know
>> whether the
>> lack of problems was due to it being "pure" gasoline or
>> lack of
>> temperature change, or whatever, but in about 20 years I
>> can't
>> remember ever having any fuel problems with small engines.
>
> Was ethanol in gasoline then?
>
> Come to think of it, is ethanol in Thai gas even now?
>
> To me, the idea of ethanol in gas seems really questionable.
> I assumed we were doing it largely to get votes from
> farmers. Is this happening elsewhere?
>

It's an absolute debacle to no net 'environmental' effect
and at great cost.

My own experience was a dead (fatal deer hit) car which sat
in my garage for three years until I gave the (very tuned,
expensive) engine to my brother. Besides everything else
ethanol promotes algae growth and so the carburetors, fuel
pump etc were clotted thick with bright green growth.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 11:52:40 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/18/2022 4:14 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 23:40:02 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:24:36 AM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 23:00:07 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 13:18:13 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 20:04:08 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 05:43:27 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (chomp...)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Twist drills" are commonly made as small as #80 which is 0.0135" in
>>>>>>>> diameter and while I've had them in the tool box I really can't
>>>>>>>> remember ever using one (:-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I use the smaller wire gauge drills for cleaning, measuring or
>>>>>>> enlarging the carburetor jets used in small engines (chainsaw,
>>>>>>> trimmer, generator, etc).
>>>>>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Gyros-45-22010-Speed-Steel-Gauge/dp/B000SKVF8I>
>>>>>
>>>>>> One of the things I "discovered" about small gas engines was not to
>>>>>> leave the gasoline in the carburetor when storing the device for any
>>>>>> length of time.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's true with the new and improved fuels that contain ethanol. The
>>>>> fuel deteriorates to the point where it will barely burn in a few
>>>>> months of storage. If left in the carburetor, the olefins will clog
>>>>> everything with a gel like gum or dry out to a crumbly powder. Here's
>>>>> the powder I found in a generator:
>>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2001.jpg>
>>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2002.jpg>
>>>>> The ethanol also absorbs water from the air, which eventually rusts
>>>>> the steel parts, like the fuel bowl. The benzene causes the rubber
>>>>> gaskets to swell and/or harden.
>>>>>
>>>>> My chain saws don't use much gasoline, so I use the overpriced
>>>>> non-ethanol fuels:
>>>>> <https://trufuel50.com>
>>>>> <https://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils-lubricants-fuels/premixed-fuel/motomix/>
>>>>> <https://www.husqvarna.com/us/fuel-oil-lubricants/2-stroke-pre-mixed-fuel-oil/?article=581158802>
>>>>>
>>>>> I got sloppy this year and left ethanol (E10) gas in one of my better
>>>>> chainsaws for about 4 months. Now, it won't start and probably needs
>>>>> to have the carburetor cleaned and/or rebuilt with new rubber parts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, the gasoline I have stored for running my generator has to be
>>>>> replaced every 3 or 4 months or it won't run the generator. I dump
>>>>> the old gas into my car and buy new gas for the generator.
>>>>>
>>>>> "The Ugly Truth Why Gas Station Fuel Is Bad For Small Engines"
>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvps2gF0Sdo>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry about the long rant, but the fuel problem really bothers me.
>>>> Somewhere I read that "real" gasoline is available as "aviation gas",
>>>> avgas, which is essentially pure gasoline with tetra-ethyl lead as the
>>>> anti knock additive although some is low lead (LL) and I think that
>>>> 100 octane is common. And I came across "racing gasoline" also
>>>>
>>>> I think if I were using small gasoline engines to any extent I would
>>>> look into it.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder whether this might be a "developed" country problem as we
>>>> used small gas engines extensively, chain saws and outboard motors
>>>> mostly, in remote areas of Indonesia with no problems. (:-)
>>>
>>> One big difference might be in Indonesia there is no cold season. So the small engines (lawn mowers, chainsaws, snow blowers) do not get put away in the shed or garage and not started or run for 6 months. I think the ethanol and less than pure gas problems come about due to sitting. If you run the engine frequently then the evil ethanol gas does no harm at all. To regular sized engines or small chainsaw type engines.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Errr.... not too many snow blowers in tropical countries (:-)
>>
>> The usual practice was a, say 500 gal, or maybe larger, storage tank
>> at the base camp which got filled when the fuel barge" came in which
>> might be months between refilling so basically you are talking about
>> fairly long storage in a hot, damp, climate. I don't know whether the
>> lack of problems was due to it being "pure" gasoline or lack of
>> temperature change, or whatever, but in about 20 years I can't
>> remember ever having any fuel problems with small engines.
>
>Was ethanol in gasoline then?
>
I don't know. It was just "gasoline" as I remember so perhaps not.

>Come to think of it, is ethanol in Thai gas even now?

Oh yes, in fact it is becoming more and more rare to find a station
that sells real gasoline. In fact now there is even a choice in diesel
fuel.

>To me, the idea of ethanol in gas seems really questionable. I assumed
>we were doing it largely to get votes from farmers. Is this happening
>elsewhere?

Well, here, at least, the ethanol "contaminated" gasoline is cheaper.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 1:14:20 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/18/2022 10:52 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 2/18/2022 4:14 AM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 23:40:02 -0800 (PST),
> >> "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:24:36 AM UTC-6, John
> >>> B. wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 23:00:07 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
> >>>> <je...@cruzio.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 13:18:13 +0700, John B.
> >>>>> <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 20:04:08 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
> >>>>>> <je...@cruzio.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 05:43:27 +0700, John B.
> >>>>>>> <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> (chomp...)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "Twist drills" are commonly made as small as #80
> >>>>>>>> which is 0.0135" in
> >>>>>>>> diameter and while I've had them in the tool box I
> >>>>>>>> really can't
> >>>>>>>> remember ever using one (:-)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I use the smaller wire gauge drills for cleaning,
> >>>>>>> measuring or
> >>>>>>> enlarging the carburetor jets used in small engines
> >>>>>>> (chainsaw,
> >>>>>>> trimmer, generator, etc).
> >>>>>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Gyros-45-22010-Speed-Steel-Gauge/dp/B000SKVF8I>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> One of the things I "discovered" about small gas
> >>>>>> engines was not to
> >>>>>> leave the gasoline in the carburetor when storing the
> >>>>>> device for any
> >>>>>> length of time.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That's true with the new and improved fuels that
> >>>>> contain ethanol. The
> >>>>> fuel deteriorates to the point where it will barely
> >>>>> burn in a few
> >>>>> months of storage. If left in the carburetor, the
> >>>>> olefins will clog
> >>>>> everything with a gel like gum or dry out to a crumbly
> >>>>> powder. Here's
> >>>>> the powder I found in a generator:
> >>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2001.jpg>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2002.jpg>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The ethanol also absorbs water from the air, which
> >>>>> eventually rusts
> >>>>> the steel parts, like the fuel bowl. The benzene causes
> >>>>> the rubber
> >>>>> gaskets to swell and/or harden.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My chain saws don't use much gasoline, so I use the
> >>>>> overpriced
> >>>>> non-ethanol fuels:
> >>>>> <https://trufuel50.com>
> >>>>> <https://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils-lubricants-fuels/premixed-fuel/motomix/>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <https://www.husqvarna.com/us/fuel-oil-lubricants/2-stroke-pre-mixed-fuel-oil/?article=581158802>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I got sloppy this year and left ethanol (E10) gas in
> >>>>> one of my better
> >>>>> chainsaws for about 4 months. Now, it won't start and
> >>>>> probably needs
> >>>>> to have the carburetor cleaned and/or rebuilt with new
> >>>>> rubber parts.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Also, the gasoline I have stored for running my
> >>>>> generator has to be
> >>>>> replaced every 3 or 4 months or it won't run the
> >>>>> generator. I dump
> >>>>> the old gas into my car and buy new gas for the generator.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "The Ugly Truth Why Gas Station Fuel Is Bad For Small
> >>>>> Engines"
> >>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvps2gF0Sdo>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sorry about the long rant, but the fuel problem really
> >>>>> bothers me.
> >>>> Somewhere I read that "real" gasoline is available as
> >>>> "aviation gas",
> >>>> avgas, which is essentially pure gasoline with
> >>>> tetra-ethyl lead as the
> >>>> anti knock additive although some is low lead (LL) and I
> >>>> think that
> >>>> 100 octane is common. And I came across "racing
> >>>> gasoline" also
> >>>>
> >>>> I think if I were using small gasoline engines to any
> >>>> extent I would
> >>>> look into it.
> >>>>
> >>>> I wonder whether this might be a "developed" country
> >>>> problem as we
> >>>> used small gas engines extensively, chain saws and
> >>>> outboard motors
> >>>> mostly, in remote areas of Indonesia with no problems. (:-)
> >>>
> >>> One big difference might be in Indonesia there is no cold
> >>> season. So the small engines (lawn mowers, chainsaws,
> >>> snow blowers) do not get put away in the shed or garage
> >>> and not started or run for 6 months. I think the ethanol
> >>> and less than pure gas problems come about due to
> >>> sitting. If you run the engine frequently then the evil
> >>> ethanol gas does no harm at all. To regular sized
> >>> engines or small chainsaw type engines.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Errr.... not too many snow blowers in tropical countries (:-)
> >>
> >> The usual practice was a, say 500 gal, or maybe larger,
> >> storage tank
> >> at the base camp which got filled when the fuel barge"
> >> came in which
> >> might be months between refilling so basically you are
> >> talking about
> >> fairly long storage in a hot, damp, climate. I don't know
> >> whether the
> >> lack of problems was due to it being "pure" gasoline or
> >> lack of
> >> temperature change, or whatever, but in about 20 years I
> >> can't
> >> remember ever having any fuel problems with small engines.
> >
> > Was ethanol in gasoline then?
> >
> > Come to think of it, is ethanol in Thai gas even now?
> >
> > To me, the idea of ethanol in gas seems really questionable.
> > I assumed we were doing it largely to get votes from
> > farmers. Is this happening elsewhere?
> >
> It's an absolute debacle to no net 'environmental' effect
> and at great cost.

I'm guessing, just guessing, but I bet ethanol in gasoline was thunk up in the 1970s by a chemist working for the government. Arab oil embargo. So the USA wanted to make cheap gas. Ethanol, alcohol, gasoline!!!!!!! Home grown domestic. Oil companies hated it. But politicians went with the population/voters instead of the payoffs from the oil companies against it. And it has endured ever since because of the voter aspect. Easily buy millions, thousands of votes in the midwest.

>
> My own experience was a dead (fatal deer hit) car which sat
> in my garage for three years until I gave the (very tuned,
> expensive) engine to my brother. Besides everything else
> ethanol promotes algae growth and so the carburetors, fuel
> pump etc were clotted thick with bright green growth.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 4:44:43 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 11:52:40 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 2/18/2022 4:14 AM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 23:40:02 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:24:36 AM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 23:00:07 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 13:18:13 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 20:04:08 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 05:43:27 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> (chomp...)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "Twist drills" are commonly made as small as #80 which is 0.0135" in
> >>>>>>>> diameter and while I've had them in the tool box I really can't
> >>>>>>>> remember ever using one (:-)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I use the smaller wire gauge drills for cleaning, measuring or
> >>>>>>> enlarging the carburetor jets used in small engines (chainsaw,
> >>>>>>> trimmer, generator, etc).
> >>>>>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Gyros-45-22010-Speed-Steel-Gauge/dp/B000SKVF8I>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> One of the things I "discovered" about small gas engines was not to
> >>>>>> leave the gasoline in the carburetor when storing the device for any
> >>>>>> length of time.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That's true with the new and improved fuels that contain ethanol. The
> >>>>> fuel deteriorates to the point where it will barely burn in a few
> >>>>> months of storage. If left in the carburetor, the olefins will clog
> >>>>> everything with a gel like gum or dry out to a crumbly powder. Here's
> >>>>> the powder I found in a generator:
> >>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2001.jpg>
> >>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2002.jpg>
> >>>>> The ethanol also absorbs water from the air, which eventually rusts
> >>>>> the steel parts, like the fuel bowl. The benzene causes the rubber
> >>>>> gaskets to swell and/or harden.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My chain saws don't use much gasoline, so I use the overpriced
> >>>>> non-ethanol fuels:
> >>>>> <https://trufuel50.com>
> >>>>> <https://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils-lubricants-fuels/premixed-fuel/motomix/>
> >>>>> <https://www.husqvarna.com/us/fuel-oil-lubricants/2-stroke-pre-mixed-fuel-oil/?article=581158802>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I got sloppy this year and left ethanol (E10) gas in one of my better
> >>>>> chainsaws for about 4 months. Now, it won't start and probably needs
> >>>>> to have the carburetor cleaned and/or rebuilt with new rubber parts..
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Also, the gasoline I have stored for running my generator has to be
> >>>>> replaced every 3 or 4 months or it won't run the generator. I dump
> >>>>> the old gas into my car and buy new gas for the generator.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "The Ugly Truth Why Gas Station Fuel Is Bad For Small Engines"
> >>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvps2gF0Sdo>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sorry about the long rant, but the fuel problem really bothers me.
> >>>> Somewhere I read that "real" gasoline is available as "aviation gas",
> >>>> avgas, which is essentially pure gasoline with tetra-ethyl lead as the
> >>>> anti knock additive although some is low lead (LL) and I think that
> >>>> 100 octane is common. And I came across "racing gasoline" also
> >>>>
> >>>> I think if I were using small gasoline engines to any extent I would
> >>>> look into it.
> >>>>
> >>>> I wonder whether this might be a "developed" country problem as we
> >>>> used small gas engines extensively, chain saws and outboard motors
> >>>> mostly, in remote areas of Indonesia with no problems. (:-)
> >>>
> >>> One big difference might be in Indonesia there is no cold season. So the small engines (lawn mowers, chainsaws, snow blowers) do not get put away in the shed or garage and not started or run for 6 months. I think the ethanol and less than pure gas problems come about due to sitting. If you run the engine frequently then the evil ethanol gas does no harm at all. To regular sized engines or small chainsaw type engines.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Errr.... not too many snow blowers in tropical countries (:-)
> >>
> >> The usual practice was a, say 500 gal, or maybe larger, storage tank
> >> at the base camp which got filled when the fuel barge" came in which
> >> might be months between refilling so basically you are talking about
> >> fairly long storage in a hot, damp, climate. I don't know whether the
> >> lack of problems was due to it being "pure" gasoline or lack of
> >> temperature change, or whatever, but in about 20 years I can't
> >> remember ever having any fuel problems with small engines.
> >
> >Was ethanol in gasoline then?
> >
> I don't know. It was just "gasoline" as I remember so perhaps not.
> >Come to think of it, is ethanol in Thai gas even now?
> Oh yes, in fact it is becoming more and more rare to find a station
> that sells real gasoline. In fact now there is even a choice in diesel
> fuel.
> >To me, the idea of ethanol in gas seems really questionable. I assumed
> >we were doing it largely to get votes from farmers. Is this happening
> >elsewhere?
> Well, here, at least, the ethanol "contaminated" gasoline is cheaper.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

Same in the USA too. E-10 10% ethanol gas is cheaper than pure gas. The new E85 gas is 15% ethanol and even cheaper yet.

On 2022-02-18, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 23:18:01 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org>
> wrote:
>
>>A bigger question for me is where can I get "white gas" in bulk (as in my
>>childhood for about twenty-five cents per gallono) for the Coleman lanterns
>>and stoves I have....
>
> Coleman fuel is mostly naphtha with some kind of rust inhibitor added.
> Figure about $15/gallon:
><https://www.shelllumber.com/klean-strip-vm-p-naphtha-paint-thinner-1-gal.html>
> Not much of a savings as Ace Hardware wants $17/gallon.
><https://www.acehardware.com/departments/outdoor-living/sporting-goods/camping-goods/82079>
>
> Crown white gas might be a better choice at $7.64/gallon.
><https://www.walmart.com/ip/Crown-White-Gas-Camp-Fuel-for-Use-in-Gasoline-Stoves-and-Lanterns-1-Gallon/51741744>
>

I think the nearest Walmart is 30 miles away....might do that if they'll
special order a couple cases for me....

pH

> I used to buy a variety of hard to find fuels and lubes at the fuel
> depots in Harvey West Park. The owners, names, and products carried
> have changed multiple times, so I don't know the current status.
> Try:
><https://www.flyersenergy.com>
> and nearby Bayside Oil II, Inc.
>
>

On 2/19/2022 12:18 AM, pH wrote:
> On 2022-02-18, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 23:18:01 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> A bigger question for me is where can I get "white gas" in bulk (as in my
>>> childhood for about twenty-five cents per gallono) for the Coleman lanterns
>>> and stoves I have....
>>
>> Coleman fuel is mostly naphtha with some kind of rust inhibitor added.
>> Figure about $15/gallon:
>> <https://www.shelllumber.com/klean-strip-vm-p-naphtha-paint-thinner-1-gal.html>
>> Not much of a savings as Ace Hardware wants $17/gallon.
>> <https://www.acehardware.com/departments/outdoor-living/sporting-goods/camping-goods/82079>
>>
>> Crown white gas might be a better choice at $7.64/gallon.
>> <https://www.walmart.com/ip/Crown-White-Gas-Camp-Fuel-for-Use-in-Gasoline-Stoves-and-Lanterns-1-Gallon/51741744>
>>
>
> I think the nearest Walmart is 30 miles away....might do that if they'll
> special order a couple cases for me....
>
> pH
>
>
>> I used to buy a variety of hard to find fuels and lubes at the fuel
>> depots in Harvey West Park. The owners, names, and products carried
>> have changed multiple times, so I don't know the current status.
>> Try:
>> <https://www.flyersenergy.com>
>> and nearby Bayside Oil II, Inc.
>>
>>

I'm not an expert but I would visit an outdoors store for
local advice on who sells the fuel.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 4:08:10 PM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 4:44:43 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> > On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 11:52:40 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> > >On 2/18/2022 4:14 AM, John B. wrote:
> > >> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 23:40:02 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:24:36 AM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> > >>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 23:00:07 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 13:18:13 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 20:04:08 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 05:43:27 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> (chomp...)
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> "Twist drills" are commonly made as small as #80 which is 0.0135" in
> > >>>>>>>> diameter and while I've had them in the tool box I really can't
> > >>>>>>>> remember ever using one (:-)
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I use the smaller wire gauge drills for cleaning, measuring or
> > >>>>>>> enlarging the carburetor jets used in small engines (chainsaw,
> > >>>>>>> trimmer, generator, etc).
> > >>>>>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Gyros-45-22010-Speed-Steel-Gauge/dp/B000SKVF8I>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> One of the things I "discovered" about small gas engines was not to
> > >>>>>> leave the gasoline in the carburetor when storing the device for any
> > >>>>>> length of time.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> That's true with the new and improved fuels that contain ethanol. The
> > >>>>> fuel deteriorates to the point where it will barely burn in a few
> > >>>>> months of storage. If left in the carburetor, the olefins will clog
> > >>>>> everything with a gel like gum or dry out to a crumbly powder. Here's
> > >>>>> the powder I found in a generator:
> > >>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2001.jpg>
> > >>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/Generators/Coleman%20Powermate%203500/clogged%20petcock%2002.jpg>
> > >>>>> The ethanol also absorbs water from the air, which eventually rusts
> > >>>>> the steel parts, like the fuel bowl. The benzene causes the rubber
> > >>>>> gaskets to swell and/or harden.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> My chain saws don't use much gasoline, so I use the overpriced
> > >>>>> non-ethanol fuels:
> > >>>>> <https://trufuel50.com>
> > >>>>> <https://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils-lubricants-fuels/premixed-fuel/motomix/>
> > >>>>> <https://www.husqvarna.com/us/fuel-oil-lubricants/2-stroke-pre-mixed-fuel-oil/?article=581158802>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I got sloppy this year and left ethanol (E10) gas in one of my better
> > >>>>> chainsaws for about 4 months. Now, it won't start and probably needs
> > >>>>> to have the carburetor cleaned and/or rebuilt with new rubber parts.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Also, the gasoline I have stored for running my generator has to be
> > >>>>> replaced every 3 or 4 months or it won't run the generator. I dump
> > >>>>> the old gas into my car and buy new gas for the generator.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> "The Ugly Truth Why Gas Station Fuel Is Bad For Small Engines"
> > >>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvps2gF0Sdo>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Sorry about the long rant, but the fuel problem really bothers me..
> > >>>> Somewhere I read that "real" gasoline is available as "aviation gas",
> > >>>> avgas, which is essentially pure gasoline with tetra-ethyl lead as the
> > >>>> anti knock additive although some is low lead (LL) and I think that
> > >>>> 100 octane is common. And I came across "racing gasoline" also
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I think if I were using small gasoline engines to any extent I would
> > >>>> look into it.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I wonder whether this might be a "developed" country problem as we
> > >>>> used small gas engines extensively, chain saws and outboard motors
> > >>>> mostly, in remote areas of Indonesia with no problems. (:-)
> > >>>
> > >>> One big difference might be in Indonesia there is no cold season. So the small engines (lawn mowers, chainsaws, snow blowers) do not get put away in the shed or garage and not started or run for 6 months. I think the ethanol and less than pure gas problems come about due to sitting. If you run the engine frequently then the evil ethanol gas does no harm at all. To regular sized engines or small chainsaw type engines.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Errr.... not too many snow blowers in tropical countries (:-)
> > >>
> > >> The usual practice was a, say 500 gal, or maybe larger, storage tank
> > >> at the base camp which got filled when the fuel barge" came in which
> > >> might be months between refilling so basically you are talking about
> > >> fairly long storage in a hot, damp, climate. I don't know whether the
> > >> lack of problems was due to it being "pure" gasoline or lack of
> > >> temperature change, or whatever, but in about 20 years I can't
> > >> remember ever having any fuel problems with small engines.
> > >
> > >Was ethanol in gasoline then?
> > >
> > I don't know. It was just "gasoline" as I remember so perhaps not.
> > >Come to think of it, is ethanol in Thai gas even now?
> > Oh yes, in fact it is becoming more and more rare to find a station
> > that sells real gasoline. In fact now there is even a choice in diesel
> > fuel.
> > >To me, the idea of ethanol in gas seems really questionable. I assumed
> > >we were doing it largely to get votes from farmers. Is this happening
> > >elsewhere?
> > Well, here, at least, the ethanol "contaminated" gasoline is cheaper.
> > --
> > Cheers,
> >
> > John B.
> Same in the USA too. E-10 10% ethanol gas is cheaper than pure gas. The new E85 gas is 15% ethanol and even cheaper yet.
The "environmentalists" convinced people that this would save us from that enemy, CO2. But the brewing and distillation process and reduced mpg since ethanol has much less energy causes more CO2 to be released. So the purpose of this whole thing was to make money for a narrow specific group of investors. This is another example of what the leftists do. They use popular but incorrect ideals to screw the entire nation

On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 2:19:00 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:29:52 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >The "environmentalists" convinced people that this would save us from that enemy, CO2. But the brewing and distillation process and reduced mpg since ethanol has much less energy causes more CO2 to be released. So the purpose of this whole thing was to make money for a narrow specific group of investors. This is another example of what the leftists do. They use popular but incorrect ideals to screw the entire nation
> Supposedly, the use of ethanol reduces carbon and greenhouse gas
> emissions:
> "Corn ethanol reduces carbon footprint, greenhouse gases"
> <https://www.anl.gov/article/corn-ethanol-reduces-carbon-footprint-greenhouse-gases>
> About a 23% reduction in carbon emissions.
>
> However, the EPA suggests that it only reduces emissions if we ignore
> the emissions from growing the corn:
> "Ethanol and the environment"
> <https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/biofuels/ethanol-and-the-environment..php>
> "The effect that increased ethanol use has on net CO2 emissions
> depends on how ethanol is made and whether or not indirect impacts on
> land use are included in the calculations."
>
> While the current justification for ethanol use is to reduce CO2
> emissions, the original justification was to reduce US dependence on
> imported oil:
> "Use and supply of ethanol"
> <https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/biofuels/use-and-supply-of-ethanol.php>
> "The oil embargo against the United States by major oil producers in
> the Middle East in 1973 and increases in oil prices in the late 1970s
> and early 1980s spurred interest in fuel ethanol as a way to reduce
> U.S. oil imports for making gasoline. "
>
> Ethanol is an octane booster and does not reduce mpg. It's main claim
> to fame is that lower octane gasoline can be used if ethanol is added
> to increase its octane rating.
> "Ethanol Benefits and Considerations"
> <https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol_benefits.html>
> "Ethanol also has a higher octane number than gasoline, which provides
> increased power and performance. For example, Indianapolis 500 drivers
> often fuel their race cars with E98 because of its high octane."

More science showing your intelligence by reading from Google. I suggest you return to your marine radios.

Growing crops is carbon dioxide neutral. But brewing alcoholic containing matter releases LOTS of CO2 and distillation requires loads of power which invariably comes from fossil fuels.

I hate to break your heart but you don't know anything about energy contained in fuels. Ethanol is a lower atomic number than Gasoline and hence has less innate energy. The reason that it has a higher octane is because it is more difficult to ignite. Water is difficult to ignite as well though it CAN be done under the proper circumstances. This might lead a thinking individual to realize that octane has nothing to do with energy content of any specific chemical reaction. The reason racing cars use ethanol is because with its higher octane they can supercharge the engine with a denser fuel/air mixture and increase total output that way.

I have a question - why are you posting? You plainly don't know shit from Shinola and it is clear that the only reason you're posting is to try and find ONE SINGLE THING that I might be wrong about. Like some kindergartener, that would just make your day.

I earned a very good living being right almost every time. You were never even in the same category. I worked on what has become the modern medical technology. You worked on marine radios. Certainly there is a need and use for good marine radios. I was designing and building ham radios at 7 or 8 years old using vacuum tubes. You looked up C/L values for frequencies. I taught myself calculus and redid the work of 3 experimental physicists to get a poison gas detector working that they calculated incorrectly.

I suggest you try to be fulfilled with what you achieved rather than do anything you can to try to devalue the work of someone else.

On 2/19/2022 2:05 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 06:18:57 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-02-18, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>> Crown white gas might be a better choice at $7.64/gallon.
>>> <https://www.walmart.com/ip/Crown-White-Gas-Camp-Fuel-for-Use-in-Gasoline-Stoves-and-Lanterns-1-Gallon/51741744>
>>>
>
>> I think the nearest Walmart is 30 miles away....might do that if they'll
>> special order a couple cases for me....
>>
>> pH
>
> Don't drive to Walmart. It looks like the advertised price is a
> mistake. Notice that the price for 1 gallon and 1 quart are the same
> ($7.64):
> <https://www.walmart.com/search?q=crown+white+gas>
>
> Sorry(tm).
>

I thought you were going to say "Don't drive to Walmart. Bike there."

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 23:10:05 -0500, Joy Beeson
<jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 17:40:23 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> > You miss the magnitude of the problem. Ask anyone under 30
> > to sharpen a blade.
>
> Rather a long time ago, I thought that I wasn't sharpening my pocket
> knives correctly. I found a book called "Tools and their uses",
> intended to teach raw ignorant city-feller army recruits the absolute
> basics of hand tools. I eagerly turned to "pocket knives", and all it
> said was that they should be sharpened when they need it.
>
> So there must have been a time when everyone knew how to sharpen a
> pocket knife.

I found _Tools and Their Uses while cleaning up a bookalanche I
triggered whiles looking for my ecru sewing-machine thread. It was
for navy recruits, and there are detailed instructions for sharpening
a pocket knife on page 56.

I wonder how I missed that? It was ten or twenty, maybe thirty years
ago, so I could be thinking of some other book entirely.

After leafing through the whole book to find the subsection on knives,
I noticed that it has an excellent index.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/