On 3/7/2022 5:47 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles, guns are used to kill people. ...
>>>>
>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>>>
>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for "mass killings" by
>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those perpetrated by those
>>> shooting guns?
>>>
>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass killing," but one
>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is killing three or more
>>> people in close proximity and within a short time period.
>>>
>>> Compare with these:
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>> Well,
>>
>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>
>
> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer of 4 people in southern California. He killed these people at a half dozen or so different locations over several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>
> Lets do some math after the fact. 4 dead from the machete knife. 22 + 9 dead from guns. 675% more deaths from guns than machete. 27 extra deaths from the guns. I suspect the 27 extra dead in Texas and Ohio wished the killer had a knife or machete than a gun. They might be alive. But are dead since a gun was used. Not a knife. Now for the 4 killed with the machete, they would be dead whether a gun or machete was used. But how many extra dead would there be if the machete killer used a gun instead? It is slightly odd since the machete killer was carrying a gun. But chose to kill with a machete instead of the gun.
>
> Will eliminating guns stop murders? No. Will eliminating guns stop mass murders? No. I am fairly certain the devoted mass murderer will figure out an ingenious way to kill people even without a gun. But it will make murder and mass murders more difficult. Make the killers work more and really earn it. Hard work makes America great I have been told.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> And, of course you will now leap into the fray and argue that "Oh my
>> goodness, but guns have killed more then knives"...
>>
>> And I will cheerfully point out that bicycles have killed more then
>> mass shootings. Some 52,903 over the period 1946 - 2018 while guns, in
>> mass shootings, killed only 512 from 1949 - 2021.
>>
>> Based on those figures it appears that bicycles are, what? 103.3 times
>> more deadly then those terribly scary guns.
>>
>> In fact Frank, hands and feet kill more people then mass shootings.
>> More in one year then the 512 killed by mass shootings in 72 years.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.

Choose your anecdotes.
On 11 September 2001 some 3000 people died, attackers used
cheap plastic box knives.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 15:07:07 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/7/2022 2:31 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 10:29:00 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 3/7/2022 9:11 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 3/6/2022 9:21 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 5:25:57 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 14:28:46 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:09:32 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 17:17:01 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 11:54:38 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 8:43 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 20:02:22 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 7:03 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 12:58:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/3/2022 9:47 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 20:48:51 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/3/2022 8:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:49 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Assault rifles" as in commonly used language - rifles with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multiple design features originally and purposely included
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for effectiveness in assault or other combat.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, some people prefer to restrict the definition to those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guns having built in full auto capability. Some do not use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that restriction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If accessories are readily available to allow emptying a 30
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round magazine in much less than ten seconds, I think the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restricted definition is worthless. That capability is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intended for combat or assault.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The thing is that nearly all "improvements" in firearm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intended to make them a more effective combat weapon.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John, IIRC you've said you used to hunt. I assume you used
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a shotgun or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a rifle, as is typical with most hunters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Care to tell us what models, and what design features it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had that made
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it a "more effective combat weapon," as opposed to a better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hunting weapon?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, tell me what a "better hunting weapon" is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But your argue is ridiculous at best. I say that nearly all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improvements were intended to make then more effective
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> combat weapons"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and you start talking about hunting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My first rifle was a ,22 single shot bolt action Winchester
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rifle. the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first single shot bolt action rifle was developed by von
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dreyse and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used by the army of Prussia in 1841.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In later years I built "varmint rifles" based on the "short
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mauser"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actions - all surplus from some army or another, a bolt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> action, action
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a magazine, developed by Peter Paul and Wilhelm Mauser and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accepted by the Prussian government on 2 December 1871.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I could go on but why bother as just about any firearm you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can mention
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is, or has been, used by the military or law enforcement and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exception of the early "Elephant Rifles" I can think of no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "guns"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developed solely for hunting,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tell us more about your hunting rifles. Did they have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shorter barrel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> length, like an AR, or longer barrel length like most other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rifles?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Barrels as short as 15 inches are great for street warfare.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most hunters
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want something well over 20 inches.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did your hunting rifles have pistol grips? They're very handy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if you've
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got to jump and dodge around to avoid real or pretend enemy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fire. Did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the squirrels and woodchucks fire back at you, making that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grip necessary?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How big was the magazine, and how fast was the action on your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hunting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rifle? Could you empty a 30 round magazine into a rabbit in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> less than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ten seconds? And hey, could you fit a drum magazine in case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 30 rounds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't take down that rabbit?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you use a "red dot" sight? You can get on target SO much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faster,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which is handy if the deer you're after is also shooting back
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I could go on, but I'd appreciate answers to those questions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instead of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evasions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You know Frank, I believe that you have really "gone right
>>>>>>>>>>>>> round the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bend" as they used to say. A 15" barrel is great for street
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fighting?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But o.k. Barrel lengths:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Barrel length, from a technical view point, is based on two
>>>>>>>>>>>>> things.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (1) the necessary length to allow for burning the majority of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> powder charge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is the reason that slow burning black powder weapons had
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a much
>>>>>>>>>>>>> long barrel then is necessary for modern fast burning
>>>>>>>>>>>>> smokeless powder
>>>>>>>>>>>>> weapons. And:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (2) to provide, with "iron sights", the necessary length
>>>>>>>>>>>>> between the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> front and rear sight to produce accuracy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh yes, I forget, with a military weapon a longer barrel was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to make a better weapon when the bayonet was attached as in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> years gone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the basic Infantry tactic was to march, in formation, up to,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps 50 yards, or even closer, to the enemy. Present the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> musket,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fire, and charge with the bayonet.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This was highly successful in wars from about 1420 until the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> invention
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the Minne Bullet, in the mid 1800's.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Next question, big magazines... Well, rifles and pistols have had
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "large" magazines for years and years. .22 rifles have had
>>>>>>>>>>>>> magazines
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that extended the full length of the barrel, certainly as ling
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as I've
>>>>>>>>>>>>> been around. And, as I have repeatedly mentioned 30 round
>>>>>>>>>>>>> magazines
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have been available for the German Luger, since WW I days.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lets see... Red Dot sights. That is a subject abut which I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have no
>>>>>>>>>>>>> personal knowledge but optical sights, in general were first made
>>>>>>>>>>>>> because it allowed the shooter to see better and thus aim more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> accurately then with the so called "iron sights".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But more to the point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why this irrational terror regarding modern firearms? After
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are, statistically, in twice as much danger from a Black man with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> his fist clenched then you are from the terrifying AR type of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> firearm.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> John, you carefully avoided answering each question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Based on that, I assume not one of the features I asked about
>>>>>>>>>>>> was on
>>>>>>>>>>>> your hunting guns.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is not surprising. Those features, common on ARs, are
>>>>>>>>>>>> rarely worth
>>>>>>>>>>>> having on a gun used for hunting. Their value is for combat
>>>>>>>>>>>> situations.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Or for pretending to be in a combat situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, you did state "hunting rifles" and I replied to you giving you
>>>>>>>>>>> the technically answers to your questions - with the exception
>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>> red dot things which I'm not familiar with.
>>>>>>>>>> You replied by assiduously evading my direct questions about your
>>>>>>>>>> specific guns. Can't you be man enough to own up to it?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not to take John's side or your side in this rousing argument. But
>>>>>>>>> I do not think wise, intelligent, thinking people talk about their
>>>>>>>>> own personal guns in public. That is something only done by
>>>>>>>>> YouTube idiots and other senseless braggarts. There are some
>>>>>>>>> things, like your social security number, or your favorite sex
>>>>>>>>> positions, that should not be talked about in public. Detailed gun
>>>>>>>>> ownership is one of them.
>>>>>>>> Well, I wouldn't exactly say that. It is quite common for, target
>>>>>>>> shooters, for example to extol the advantages or bemoan the decencies
>>>>>>>> of the gun that they are using.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes in certain situations, a person can and does brag about his
>>>>>>> equipment. As you state, sharp shooting rifles with twelve different
>>>>>>> scopes and lenses on them and various adjustable weights hanging on
>>>>>>> them to counter balance the rotation of the earth and gravity. Used
>>>>>>> exclusively by target shooters in competitions. Or Revolutionary war
>>>>>>> or Daniel Boone recreators. They may wax eloquently about their
>>>>>>> flintlock rifle and authentic hand made black powder and hand cast
>>>>>>> lead bullets they fire out of their beloved rifles. But for the
>>>>>>> average, general public citizen, it is very unwise to publicly
>>>>>>> discuss and disclose the guns they own. And for your target
>>>>>>> shooters, they are carrying on their conversations exclusively with
>>>>>>> other target shooters.
>>>>>> Well, I'm not sure about the home made black powder. I've actually
>>>>>> made some and discovered why "grained" or "corned" gunpowder became so
>>>>>> popular (:-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But why ever not talk about guns? Or girls? Or how much whiskey you
>>>>>> drank at the party last Saturday night? All of which, I might note, I
>>>>>> have heard discussed in various groups.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or even bicycles, for that matter?
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles, guns are used to
>>>>> kill people. There is danger involved with the gun. Either for the
>>>>> gun owner or another party. A made up scenario to illustrate my
>>>>> point. A bad person is looking for a gun for a future crime. A gun
>>>>> registered or not registered to someone else. Not to the bad person.
>>>>> They hear someone talking about all the guns they own. The bad person
>>>>> says I will rob that person. And since I know he has guns, I will
>>>>> kill first, rob later. And I will be prepared with another gun to
>>>>> start, or with a knife ready to stab and slash first. Not a typical
>>>>> robbery. I am assuming in a typical robbery the criminal tries to
>>>>> make it as easy for themselves as possible. They watch a potential
>>>>> target and time it so no one is home or at the store. Then they break
>>>>> in and steal stuff. Easier to break in if no one is there. Easier to
>>>>> steal if no one is there to stop you. Easier to get away if no one is
>>>>> there to stop you. Criminals
>>>> are not all stupid. They think about how to do the crime.
>>>>
>>>> That scenario is common:
>>>> https://ktla.com/news/police-homeowner-shoots-kills-intruder-in-fontana/
>>> Correct! It's pretty common for burglars to break into houses known to
>>> have guns. Guns are more expensive, more compact and easier to sell
>>> than, say, your big screen TV.
>>>
>>> From https://www.nber.org/papers/w8926
>>>
>>> " Other things equal, a gun-rich community provides more lucrative
>>> burglary opportunities than one where guns are more sparse. The new
>>> empirical results reported here provide no support for a net deterrent
>>> effect from widespread gun ownership. Rather, our analysis concludes
>>> that residential burglary rates tend to increase with community gun
>>> prevalence."
>>>
>>> Also see
>>> https://www.americanprogress.org/article/gun-theft-united-states-state-state-analysis/
>>>
>>> What's far less common? Using a gun to stop a burglary.
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>>
>> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide_mortality/homicide.htm
>> This is a fun website. I say this with irony. CDC website showing the homicides in the USA. You can select 2020 or 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016, 2015, 2014, and 2005. Not sure why they chose to add in 2005. I selected 2020, most recent year available. Does not have 2021 data yet. The table below the map picture has the states and murder rate per 100k and total murders. Obviously, more murders in more populous states. No matter what the rate is.
>>
>> An interesting picture develops when you look at the top homicide states. Mostly, not all, but mostly Republican with pro yes great guns laws. Top murder states in USA are Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Missouri, Arkansas. All 100% Republican and PRO GUNS. I'm pretty sure in Missouri the Republican legislature and Governor voted to commend and honor and give merit citations to the couple in St. Louis who pulled AR-15 guns on the BLM protesters.
>>
>> Illinois, Andy's nemesis state, has 11.2 murder rate. Bad of course. Maryland 11.4, Tennessee 11.5, South Carolina 12.7. Yet everyone thinks Chicago is the murder capital of the world. Why is that? Despite these other states being more murder states. And of course the ones I listed in the above paragraph are the top most murder states.
>>
>> California 6.1. Texas 7.6, Florida 7.8. ANTI gun California. PRO gun Texas and Florida. Yet there were more murders in the pro gun states. I thought everyone carrying guns on their hips would reduce the gun murders? But it didn't?
>>
>
>As we discussed here earlier (in re national response to
>state statute crimes) the local community values and
>official policies of, say, Milwaukee are very different from
>adjacent Waukesha County or Ozaukee County. Moreso out here
>in not-urban Wisconsin.
>
>Some States have one major metro area, others have a couple,
>some have a dozen and each of those GMAs is different from
>the others in the same State. I was just reading in my paper
>today about Seattle, which has experienced a doubling of
>murders in 8 years.
>
>Speaking of murder rates, St Louis, New Orleans and
>Baltimore usually top the 'rate per population' list; I
>haven't checked lately.

On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 5:07:12 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>
> Choose your anecdotes.
> On 11 September 2001 some 3000 people died, attackers used
> cheap plastic box knives.

You're always good for an outlier, Andrew!

But in response to 9/11, the U.S. government initiated regulations and a multi-billion
dollar per year administration to make sure that never happened again.

Yet those 3000 lives lost, regrettable though they are, get exceeded by U.S. gun
deaths nearly every month. But nothing can be done. Because, as Jim Jeffries said,
"Ah LIKE guns!"

If Wayne LaPierre were head of a National Box Cutter Association, he'd be living in
even more luxury. And we'd have airline crashes every month.

- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 12:50:34 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 10:29:00 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/7/2022 9:11 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> > On 3/6/2022 9:21 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 5:25:57 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> >>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 14:28:46 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:09:32 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 17:17:01 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 11:54:38 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 8:43 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 20:02:22 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 7:03 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 12:58:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/3/2022 9:47 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 20:48:51 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/3/2022 8:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:49 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Assault rifles" as in commonly used language - rifles with
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multiple design features originally and purposely included
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for effectiveness in assault or other combat.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, some people prefer to restrict the definition to those
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guns having built in full auto capability. Some do not use
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that restriction.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If accessories are readily available to allow emptying a 30
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round magazine in much less than ten seconds, I think the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restricted definition is worthless. That capability is
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intended for combat or assault.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The thing is that nearly all "improvements" in firearm
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> design was
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> intended to make them a more effective combat weapon.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> John, IIRC you've said you used to hunt. I assume you used
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a shotgun or
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a rifle, as is typical with most hunters.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Care to tell us what models, and what design features it
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> had that made
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> it a "more effective combat weapon," as opposed to a better
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> hunting weapon?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Well, tell me what a "better hunting weapon" is.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> But your argue is ridiculous at best. I say that nearly all
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> improvements were intended to make then more effective
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> combat weapons"
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and you start talking about hunting.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> My first rifle was a ,22 single shot bolt action Winchester
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> rifle. the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> first single shot bolt action rifle was developed by von
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Dreyse and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> used by the army of Prussia in 1841.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In later years I built "varmint rifles" based on the "short
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> mauser"
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> actions - all surplus from some army or another, a bolt
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> action, action
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> with a magazine, developed by Peter Paul and Wilhelm Mauser and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> accepted by the Prussian government on 2 December 1871.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I could go on but why bother as just about any firearm you
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> can mention
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> is, or has been, used by the military or law enforcement and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> with the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> exception of the early "Elephant Rifles" I can think of no
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "guns"
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> developed solely for hunting,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Tell us more about your hunting rifles. Did they have a
>> >>>>>>>>>>> shorter barrel
>> >>>>>>>>>>> length, like an AR, or longer barrel length like most other
>> >>>>>>>>>>> rifles?
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Barrels as short as 15 inches are great for street warfare.
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Most hunters
>> >>>>>>>>>>> want something well over 20 inches.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Did your hunting rifles have pistol grips? They're very handy
>> >>>>>>>>>>> if you've
>> >>>>>>>>>>> got to jump and dodge around to avoid real or pretend enemy
>> >>>>>>>>>>> fire. Did
>> >>>>>>>>>>> the squirrels and woodchucks fire back at you, making that
>> >>>>>>>>>>> grip necessary?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> How big was the magazine, and how fast was the action on your
>> >>>>>>>>>>> hunting
>> >>>>>>>>>>> rifle? Could you empty a 30 round magazine into a rabbit in
>> >>>>>>>>>>> less than
>> >>>>>>>>>>> ten seconds? And hey, could you fit a drum magazine in case
>> >>>>>>>>>>> 30 rounds
>> >>>>>>>>>>> didn't take down that rabbit?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Did you use a "red dot" sight? You can get on target SO much
>> >>>>>>>>>>> faster,
>> >>>>>>>>>>> which is handy if the deer you're after is also shooting back
>> >>>>>>>>>>> at you.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I could go on, but I'd appreciate answers to those questions
>> >>>>>>>>>>> instead of
>> >>>>>>>>>>> evasions.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> You know Frank, I believe that you have really "gone right
>> >>>>>>>>>> round the
>> >>>>>>>>>> bend" as they used to say. A 15" barrel is great for street
>> >>>>>>>>>> fighting?
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> But o.k. Barrel lengths:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Barrel length, from a technical view point, is based on two
>> >>>>>>>>>> things.
>> >>>>>>>>>> (1) the necessary length to allow for burning the majority of the
>> >>>>>>>>>> powder charge.
>> >>>>>>>>>> This is the reason that slow burning black powder weapons had
>> >>>>>>>>>> a much
>> >>>>>>>>>> long barrel then is necessary for modern fast burning
>> >>>>>>>>>> smokeless powder
>> >>>>>>>>>> weapons. And:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> (2) to provide, with "iron sights", the necessary length
>> >>>>>>>>>> between the
>> >>>>>>>>>> front and rear sight to produce accuracy.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Oh yes, I forget, with a military weapon a longer barrel was
>> >>>>>>>>>> thought
>> >>>>>>>>>> to make a better weapon when the bayonet was attached as in
>> >>>>>>>>>> years gone
>> >>>>>>>>>> by the basic Infantry tactic was to march, in formation, up to,
>> >>>>>>>>>> perhaps 50 yards, or even closer, to the enemy. Present the
>> >>>>>>>>>> musket,
>> >>>>>>>>>> fire, and charge with the bayonet.
>> >>>>>>>>>> This was highly successful in wars from about 1420 until the
>> >>>>>>>>>> invention
>> >>>>>>>>>> of the Minne Bullet, in the mid 1800's.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Next question, big magazines... Well, rifles and pistols have had
>> >>>>>>>>>> "large" magazines for years and years. .22 rifles have had
>> >>>>>>>>>> magazines
>> >>>>>>>>>> that extended the full length of the barrel, certainly as ling
>> >>>>>>>>>> as I've
>> >>>>>>>>>> been around. And, as I have repeatedly mentioned 30 round
>> >>>>>>>>>> magazines
>> >>>>>>>>>> have been available for the German Luger, since WW I days.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Lets see... Red Dot sights. That is a subject abut which I
>> >>>>>>>>>> have no
>> >>>>>>>>>> personal knowledge but optical sights, in general were first made
>> >>>>>>>>>> because it allowed the shooter to see better and thus aim more
>> >>>>>>>>>> accurately then with the so called "iron sights".
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> But more to the point.
>> >>>>>>>>>> Why this irrational terror regarding modern firearms? After
>> >>>>>>>>>> all you
>> >>>>>>>>>> are, statistically, in twice as much danger from a Black man with
>> >>>>>>>>>> his fist clenched then you are from the terrifying AR type of
>> >>>>>>>>>> firearm.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> John, you carefully avoided answering each question.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Based on that, I assume not one of the features I asked about
>> >>>>>>>>> was on
>> >>>>>>>>> your hunting guns.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Which is not surprising. Those features, common on ARs, are
>> >>>>>>>>> rarely worth
>> >>>>>>>>> having on a gun used for hunting. Their value is for combat
>> >>>>>>>>> situations.
>> >>>>>>>>> Or for pretending to be in a combat situation.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Yes, you did state "hunting rifles" and I replied to you giving you
>> >>>>>>>> the technically answers to your questions - with the exception
>> >>>>>>>> of the
>> >>>>>>>> red dot things which I'm not familiar with.
>> >>>>>>> You replied by assiduously evading my direct questions about your
>> >>>>>>> specific guns. Can't you be man enough to own up to it?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Not to take John's side or your side in this rousing argument. But
>> >>>>>> I do not think wise, intelligent, thinking people talk about their
>> >>>>>> own personal guns in public. That is something only done by
>> >>>>>> YouTube idiots and other senseless braggarts. There are some
>> >>>>>> things, like your social security number, or your favorite sex
>> >>>>>> positions, that should not be talked about in public. Detailed gun
>> >>>>>> ownership is one of them.
>> >>>>> Well, I wouldn't exactly say that. It is quite common for, target
>> >>>>> shooters, for example to extol the advantages or bemoan the decencies
>> >>>>> of the gun that they are using.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Yes in certain situations, a person can and does brag about his
>> >>>> equipment. As you state, sharp shooting rifles with twelve different
>> >>>> scopes and lenses on them and various adjustable weights hanging on
>> >>>> them to counter balance the rotation of the earth and gravity. Used
>> >>>> exclusively by target shooters in competitions. Or Revolutionary war
>> >>>> or Daniel Boone recreators. They may wax eloquently about their
>> >>>> flintlock rifle and authentic hand made black powder and hand cast
>> >>>> lead bullets they fire out of their beloved rifles. But for the
>> >>>> average, general public citizen, it is very unwise to publicly
>> >>>> discuss and disclose the guns they own. And for your target
>> >>>> shooters, they are carrying on their conversations exclusively with
>> >>>> other target shooters.
>> >>> Well, I'm not sure about the home made black powder. I've actually
>> >>> made some and discovered why "grained" or "corned" gunpowder became so
>> >>> popular (:-)
>> >>>
>> >>> But why ever not talk about guns? Or girls? Or how much whiskey you
>> >>> drank at the party last Saturday night? All of which, I might note, I
>> >>> have heard discussed in various groups.
>> >>>
>> >>> Or even bicycles, for that matter?
>> >>> --
>> >>> Cheers,
>> >>>
>> >>> John B.
>> >>
>> >> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles, guns are used to
>> >> kill people. There is danger involved with the gun. Either for the
>> >> gun owner or another party. A made up scenario to illustrate my
>> >> point. A bad person is looking for a gun for a future crime. A gun
>> >> registered or not registered to someone else. Not to the bad person.
>> >> They hear someone talking about all the guns they own. The bad person
>> >> says I will rob that person. And since I know he has guns, I will
>> >> kill first, rob later. And I will be prepared with another gun to
>> >> start, or with a knife ready to stab and slash first. Not a typical
>> >> robbery. I am assuming in a typical robbery the criminal tries to
>> >> make it as easy for themselves as possible. They watch a potential
>> >> target and time it so no one is home or at the store. Then they break
>> >> in and steal stuff. Easier to break in if no one is there. Easier to
>> >> steal if no one is there to stop you. Easier to get away if no one is
>> >> there to stop you. Criminals
>> > are not all stupid. They think about how to do the crime.
>> >
>> > That scenario is common:
>> > https://ktla.com/news/police-homeowner-shoots-kills-intruder-in-fontana/
>> Correct! It's pretty common for burglars to break into houses known to
>> have guns. Guns are more expensive, more compact and easier to sell
>> than, say, your big screen TV.
>>
>> From https://www.nber.org/papers/w8926
>>
>> " Other things equal, a gun-rich community provides more lucrative
>> burglary opportunities than one where guns are more sparse. The new
>> empirical results reported here provide no support for a net deterrent
>> effect from widespread gun ownership. Rather, our analysis concludes
>> that residential burglary rates tend to increase with community gun
>> prevalence."
>>
>> Also see
>> https://www.americanprogress.org/article/gun-theft-united-states-state-state-analysis/
>>
>> What's far less common? Using a gun to stop a burglary.
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
>https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-weapon-used/
>Another humorous chart. Irony by me. Shows how all the murders were caused in the USA in 2020.
>
>Handguns 8029
>Firearms, type not stated 4863
>Knives 1739
>Other weapons 983
>Hands feet 662
>Rifles 455
>Blunt object 393
>Shotguns 203
>Other guns 113 (Not sure what this would be since we already have handguns, rifles, shotguns, and Not stated firearms.)
>Narcotics 113
>Fire 106
>Asphyxiation 71
>
>I don't care how you organize these numbers. Shooting folks is the
favorite way to murder people in the USA. Stabbing, punching, and
clubbing are way down the list. If they were the only way to kill
people, we would have the safest country on earth, behind the Vatican
of course.

On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 5:07:12 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/7/2022 5:47 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles, guns are used to kill people. ...
> >>>>
> >>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
> >>>
> >>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for "mass killings" by
> >>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those perpetrated by those
> >>> shooting guns?
> >>>
> >>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass killing," but one
> >>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is killing three or more
> >>> people in close proximity and within a short time period.
> >>>
> >>> Compare with these:
> >>>
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
> >> Well,
> >>
> >> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
> >> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
> >>
> >
> > Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer of 4 people in southern California. He killed these people at a half dozen or so different locations over several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to death 9 people before police shot him to death.
> >
> > Lets do some math after the fact. 4 dead from the machete knife. 22 + 9 dead from guns. 675% more deaths from guns than machete. 27 extra deaths from the guns. I suspect the 27 extra dead in Texas and Ohio wished the killer had a knife or machete than a gun. They might be alive. But are dead since a gun was used. Not a knife. Now for the 4 killed with the machete, they would be dead whether a gun or machete was used. But how many extra dead would there be if the machete killer used a gun instead? It is slightly odd since the machete killer was carrying a gun. But chose to kill with a machete instead of the gun.
> >
> > Will eliminating guns stop murders? No. Will eliminating guns stop mass murders? No. I am fairly certain the devoted mass murderer will figure out an ingenious way to kill people even without a gun. But it will make murder and mass murders more difficult. Make the killers work more and really earn it. Hard work makes America great I have been told.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> And, of course you will now leap into the fray and argue that "Oh my
> >> goodness, but guns have killed more then knives"...
> >>
> >> And I will cheerfully point out that bicycles have killed more then
> >> mass shootings. Some 52,903 over the period 1946 - 2018 while guns, in
> >> mass shootings, killed only 512 from 1949 - 2021.
> >>
> >> Based on those figures it appears that bicycles are, what? 103.3 times
> >> more deadly then those terribly scary guns.
> >>
> >> In fact Frank, hands and feet kill more people then mass shootings.
> >> More in one year then the 512 killed by mass shootings in 72 years.
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> Choose your anecdotes.
> On 11 September 2001 some 3000 people died, attackers used
> cheap plastic box knives.

I met a fireman that was there. He had picked up someone that was injured by falling debris and as he was running down the stairs he passed many of his teammates running up. He was the last one to get out.

On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 12:31:06 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 10:29:00 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/7/2022 9:11 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> > On 3/6/2022 9:21 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 5:25:57 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> >>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 14:28:46 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:09:32 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 17:17:01 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 11:54:38 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 8:43 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 20:02:22 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 7:03 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 12:58:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/3/2022 9:47 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 20:48:51 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/3/2022 8:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:49 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Assault rifles" as in commonly used language - rifles with
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multiple design features originally and purposely included
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for effectiveness in assault or other combat.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, some people prefer to restrict the definition to those
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guns having built in full auto capability. Some do not use
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that restriction.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If accessories are readily available to allow emptying a 30
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round magazine in much less than ten seconds, I think the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restricted definition is worthless. That capability is
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intended for combat or assault.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The thing is that nearly all "improvements" in firearm
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> design was
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> intended to make them a more effective combat weapon.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> John, IIRC you've said you used to hunt. I assume you used
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a shotgun or
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a rifle, as is typical with most hunters.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Care to tell us what models, and what design features it
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> had that made
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> it a "more effective combat weapon," as opposed to a better
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> hunting weapon?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Well, tell me what a "better hunting weapon" is.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> But your argue is ridiculous at best. I say that nearly all
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> improvements were intended to make then more effective
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> combat weapons"
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and you start talking about hunting.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> My first rifle was a ,22 single shot bolt action Winchester
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> rifle. the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> first single shot bolt action rifle was developed by von
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Dreyse and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> used by the army of Prussia in 1841.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In later years I built "varmint rifles" based on the "short
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> mauser"
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> actions - all surplus from some army or another, a bolt
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> action, action
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> with a magazine, developed by Peter Paul and Wilhelm Mauser and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> accepted by the Prussian government on 2 December 1871.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I could go on but why bother as just about any firearm you
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> can mention
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> is, or has been, used by the military or law enforcement and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> with the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> exception of the early "Elephant Rifles" I can think of no
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "guns"
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> developed solely for hunting,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Tell us more about your hunting rifles. Did they have a
>> >>>>>>>>>>> shorter barrel
>> >>>>>>>>>>> length, like an AR, or longer barrel length like most other
>> >>>>>>>>>>> rifles?
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Barrels as short as 15 inches are great for street warfare.
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Most hunters
>> >>>>>>>>>>> want something well over 20 inches.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Did your hunting rifles have pistol grips? They're very handy
>> >>>>>>>>>>> if you've
>> >>>>>>>>>>> got to jump and dodge around to avoid real or pretend enemy
>> >>>>>>>>>>> fire. Did
>> >>>>>>>>>>> the squirrels and woodchucks fire back at you, making that
>> >>>>>>>>>>> grip necessary?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> How big was the magazine, and how fast was the action on your
>> >>>>>>>>>>> hunting
>> >>>>>>>>>>> rifle? Could you empty a 30 round magazine into a rabbit in
>> >>>>>>>>>>> less than
>> >>>>>>>>>>> ten seconds? And hey, could you fit a drum magazine in case
>> >>>>>>>>>>> 30 rounds
>> >>>>>>>>>>> didn't take down that rabbit?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Did you use a "red dot" sight? You can get on target SO much
>> >>>>>>>>>>> faster,
>> >>>>>>>>>>> which is handy if the deer you're after is also shooting back
>> >>>>>>>>>>> at you.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I could go on, but I'd appreciate answers to those questions
>> >>>>>>>>>>> instead of
>> >>>>>>>>>>> evasions.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> You know Frank, I believe that you have really "gone right
>> >>>>>>>>>> round the
>> >>>>>>>>>> bend" as they used to say. A 15" barrel is great for street
>> >>>>>>>>>> fighting?
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> But o.k. Barrel lengths:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Barrel length, from a technical view point, is based on two
>> >>>>>>>>>> things.
>> >>>>>>>>>> (1) the necessary length to allow for burning the majority of the
>> >>>>>>>>>> powder charge.
>> >>>>>>>>>> This is the reason that slow burning black powder weapons had
>> >>>>>>>>>> a much
>> >>>>>>>>>> long barrel then is necessary for modern fast burning
>> >>>>>>>>>> smokeless powder
>> >>>>>>>>>> weapons. And:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> (2) to provide, with "iron sights", the necessary length
>> >>>>>>>>>> between the
>> >>>>>>>>>> front and rear sight to produce accuracy.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Oh yes, I forget, with a military weapon a longer barrel was
>> >>>>>>>>>> thought
>> >>>>>>>>>> to make a better weapon when the bayonet was attached as in
>> >>>>>>>>>> years gone
>> >>>>>>>>>> by the basic Infantry tactic was to march, in formation, up to,
>> >>>>>>>>>> perhaps 50 yards, or even closer, to the enemy. Present the
>> >>>>>>>>>> musket,
>> >>>>>>>>>> fire, and charge with the bayonet.
>> >>>>>>>>>> This was highly successful in wars from about 1420 until the
>> >>>>>>>>>> invention
>> >>>>>>>>>> of the Minne Bullet, in the mid 1800's.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Next question, big magazines... Well, rifles and pistols have had
>> >>>>>>>>>> "large" magazines for years and years. .22 rifles have had
>> >>>>>>>>>> magazines
>> >>>>>>>>>> that extended the full length of the barrel, certainly as ling
>> >>>>>>>>>> as I've
>> >>>>>>>>>> been around. And, as I have repeatedly mentioned 30 round
>> >>>>>>>>>> magazines
>> >>>>>>>>>> have been available for the German Luger, since WW I days.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Lets see... Red Dot sights. That is a subject abut which I
>> >>>>>>>>>> have no
>> >>>>>>>>>> personal knowledge but optical sights, in general were first made
>> >>>>>>>>>> because it allowed the shooter to see better and thus aim more
>> >>>>>>>>>> accurately then with the so called "iron sights".
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> But more to the point.
>> >>>>>>>>>> Why this irrational terror regarding modern firearms? After
>> >>>>>>>>>> all you
>> >>>>>>>>>> are, statistically, in twice as much danger from a Black man with
>> >>>>>>>>>> his fist clenched then you are from the terrifying AR type of
>> >>>>>>>>>> firearm.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> John, you carefully avoided answering each question.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Based on that, I assume not one of the features I asked about
>> >>>>>>>>> was on
>> >>>>>>>>> your hunting guns.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Which is not surprising. Those features, common on ARs, are
>> >>>>>>>>> rarely worth
>> >>>>>>>>> having on a gun used for hunting. Their value is for combat
>> >>>>>>>>> situations.
>> >>>>>>>>> Or for pretending to be in a combat situation.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Yes, you did state "hunting rifles" and I replied to you giving you
>> >>>>>>>> the technically answers to your questions - with the exception
>> >>>>>>>> of the
>> >>>>>>>> red dot things which I'm not familiar with.
>> >>>>>>> You replied by assiduously evading my direct questions about your
>> >>>>>>> specific guns. Can't you be man enough to own up to it?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Not to take John's side or your side in this rousing argument. But
>> >>>>>> I do not think wise, intelligent, thinking people talk about their
>> >>>>>> own personal guns in public. That is something only done by
>> >>>>>> YouTube idiots and other senseless braggarts. There are some
>> >>>>>> things, like your social security number, or your favorite sex
>> >>>>>> positions, that should not be talked about in public. Detailed gun
>> >>>>>> ownership is one of them.
>> >>>>> Well, I wouldn't exactly say that. It is quite common for, target
>> >>>>> shooters, for example to extol the advantages or bemoan the decencies
>> >>>>> of the gun that they are using.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Yes in certain situations, a person can and does brag about his
>> >>>> equipment. As you state, sharp shooting rifles with twelve different
>> >>>> scopes and lenses on them and various adjustable weights hanging on
>> >>>> them to counter balance the rotation of the earth and gravity. Used
>> >>>> exclusively by target shooters in competitions. Or Revolutionary war
>> >>>> or Daniel Boone recreators. They may wax eloquently about their
>> >>>> flintlock rifle and authentic hand made black powder and hand cast
>> >>>> lead bullets they fire out of their beloved rifles. But for the
>> >>>> average, general public citizen, it is very unwise to publicly
>> >>>> discuss and disclose the guns they own. And for your target
>> >>>> shooters, they are carrying on their conversations exclusively with
>> >>>> other target shooters.
>> >>> Well, I'm not sure about the home made black powder. I've actually
>> >>> made some and discovered why "grained" or "corned" gunpowder became so
>> >>> popular (:-)
>> >>>
>> >>> But why ever not talk about guns? Or girls? Or how much whiskey you
>> >>> drank at the party last Saturday night? All of which, I might note, I
>> >>> have heard discussed in various groups.
>> >>>
>> >>> Or even bicycles, for that matter?
>> >>> --
>> >>> Cheers,
>> >>>
>> >>> John B.
>> >>
>> >> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles, guns are used to
>> >> kill people. There is danger involved with the gun. Either for the
>> >> gun owner or another party. A made up scenario to illustrate my
>> >> point. A bad person is looking for a gun for a future crime. A gun
>> >> registered or not registered to someone else. Not to the bad person.
>> >> They hear someone talking about all the guns they own. The bad person
>> >> says I will rob that person. And since I know he has guns, I will
>> >> kill first, rob later. And I will be prepared with another gun to
>> >> start, or with a knife ready to stab and slash first. Not a typical
>> >> robbery. I am assuming in a typical robbery the criminal tries to
>> >> make it as easy for themselves as possible. They watch a potential
>> >> target and time it so no one is home or at the store. Then they break
>> >> in and steal stuff. Easier to break in if no one is there. Easier to
>> >> steal if no one is there to stop you. Easier to get away if no one is
>> >> there to stop you. Criminals
>> > are not all stupid. They think about how to do the crime.
>> >
>> > That scenario is common:
>> > https://ktla.com/news/police-homeowner-shoots-kills-intruder-in-fontana/
>> Correct! It's pretty common for burglars to break into houses known to
>> have guns. Guns are more expensive, more compact and easier to sell
>> than, say, your big screen TV.
>>
>> From https://www.nber.org/papers/w8926
>>
>> " Other things equal, a gun-rich community provides more lucrative
>> burglary opportunities than one where guns are more sparse. The new
>> empirical results reported here provide no support for a net deterrent
>> effect from widespread gun ownership. Rather, our analysis concludes
>> that residential burglary rates tend to increase with community gun
>> prevalence."
>>
>> Also see
>> https://www.americanprogress.org/article/gun-theft-united-states-state-state-analysis/
>>
>> What's far less common? Using a gun to stop a burglary.
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
>
>https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide_mortality/homicide.htm
>This is a fun website. I say this with irony. CDC website showing the homicides in the USA. You can select 2020 or 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016, 2015, 2014, and 2005. Not sure why they chose to add in 2005. I selected 2020, most recent year available. Does not have 2021 data yet. The table below the map picture has the states and murder rate per 100k and total murders. Obviously, more murders in more populous states. No matter what the rate is.
>
>An interesting picture develops when you look at the top homicide states. Mostly, not all, but mostly Republican with pro yes great guns laws. Top murder states in USA are Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Missouri, Arkansas. All 100% Republican and PRO GUNS. I'm pretty sure in Missouri the Republican legislature and Governor voted to commend and honor and give merit citations to the couple in St. Louis who pulled AR-15 guns on the BLM protesters.
>
>Illinois, Andy's nemesis state, has 11.2 murder rate. Bad of course. Maryland 11.4, Tennessee 11.5, South Carolina 12.7. Yet everyone thinks Chicago is the murder capital of the world. Why is that? Despite these other states being more murder states. And of course the ones I listed in the above paragraph are the top most murder states.
>
>California 6.1. Texas 7.6, Florida 7.8. ANTI gun California. PRO gun Texas and Florida. Yet there were more murders in the pro gun states. I thought everyone carrying guns on their hips would reduce the gun murders? But it didn't?

On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 19:07:06 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/7/2022 5:47 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles, guns are used to kill people. ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>>>>
>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for "mass killings" by
>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those perpetrated by those
>>>> shooting guns?
>>>>
>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass killing," but one
>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is killing three or more
>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time period.
>>>>
>>>> Compare with these:
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>> Well,
>>>
>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>>
>>
>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer of 4 people in southern California. He killed these people at a half dozen or so different locations over several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>>
>> Lets do some math after the fact. 4 dead from the machete knife. 22 + 9 dead from guns. 675% more deaths from guns than machete. 27 extra deaths from the guns. I suspect the 27 extra dead in Texas and Ohio wished the killer had a knife or machete than a gun. They might be alive. But are dead since a gun was used. Not a knife. Now for the 4 killed with the machete, they would be dead whether a gun or machete was used. But how many extra dead would there be if the machete killer used a gun instead? It is slightly odd since the machete killer was carrying a gun. But chose to kill with a machete instead of the gun.
>>
>> Will eliminating guns stop murders? No. Will eliminating guns stop mass murders? No. I am fairly certain the devoted mass murderer will figure out an ingenious way to kill people even without a gun. But it will make murder and mass murders more difficult. Make the killers work more and really earn it. Hard work makes America great I have been told.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> And, of course you will now leap into the fray and argue that "Oh my
>>> goodness, but guns have killed more then knives"...
>>>
>>> And I will cheerfully point out that bicycles have killed more then
>>> mass shootings. Some 52,903 over the period 1946 - 2018 while guns, in
>>> mass shootings, killed only 512 from 1949 - 2021.
>>>
>>> Based on those figures it appears that bicycles are, what? 103.3 times
>>> more deadly then those terribly scary guns.
>>>
>>> In fact Frank, hands and feet kill more people then mass shootings.
>>> More in one year then the 512 killed by mass shootings in 72 years.
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John B.
>
>Choose your anecdotes.
>On 11 September 2001 some 3000 people died, attackers used
>cheap plastic box knives.

And another guy, in a different event, tried to use a shoe, didn't he
(:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles, guns are used to kill people. ...
>> >>
>> >> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>> >
>> >Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for "mass killings" by
>> >knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those perpetrated by those
>> >shooting guns?
>> >
>> >Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass killing," but one
>> >accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is killing three or more
>> >people in close proximity and within a short time period.
>> >
>> >Compare with these:
>> >
>> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>> Well,
>>
>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>
>
>Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer of 4 people in southern California. He killed these people at a half dozen or so different locations over several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to death 9 people before police shot him to death.

Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up and down the
street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work, you know.

But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To get hit,
unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some maniac running
down the street hacking and slashing and you know that you can't out
run him?

And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant "went mad" and
shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I think) largest
city.

In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to illustrate the
difference in attitudes between here and there. Had this happened in
the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming about them
there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was the matter with
Him"?

I suggest that to blame the person that actually did the deed is a far
more rational approach then blaming what is an basically inert
mechanical object. Although the U.S. does seem - to an outsider at
least - to try to rationalize, or impersonalize, things to a greater
extent then I see taking place here. Y'all talk about "traffic deaths"
or "car deaths" here you are more likely to see something more like
"Drunk in pickup hits bicycle".
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/7/2022 7:56 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 19:07:06 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 3/7/2022 5:47 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles, guns are used to kill people. ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>>>>>
>>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for "mass killings" by
>>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those perpetrated by those
>>>>> shooting guns?
>>>>>
>>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass killing," but one
>>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is killing three or more
>>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time period.
>>>>>
>>>>> Compare with these:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>> Well,
>>>>
>>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>>>
>>>
>>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer of 4 people in southern California. He killed these people at a half dozen or so different locations over several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>>>
>>> Lets do some math after the fact. 4 dead from the machete knife. 22 + 9 dead from guns. 675% more deaths from guns than machete. 27 extra deaths from the guns. I suspect the 27 extra dead in Texas and Ohio wished the killer had a knife or machete than a gun. They might be alive. But are dead since a gun was used. Not a knife. Now for the 4 killed with the machete, they would be dead whether a gun or machete was used. But how many extra dead would there be if the machete killer used a gun instead? It is slightly odd since the machete killer was carrying a gun. But chose to kill with a machete instead of the gun.
>>>
>>> Will eliminating guns stop murders? No. Will eliminating guns stop mass murders? No. I am fairly certain the devoted mass murderer will figure out an ingenious way to kill people even without a gun. But it will make murder and mass murders more difficult. Make the killers work more and really earn it. Hard work makes America great I have been told.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> And, of course you will now leap into the fray and argue that "Oh my
>>>> goodness, but guns have killed more then knives"...
>>>>
>>>> And I will cheerfully point out that bicycles have killed more then
>>>> mass shootings. Some 52,903 over the period 1946 - 2018 while guns, in
>>>> mass shootings, killed only 512 from 1949 - 2021.
>>>>
>>>> Based on those figures it appears that bicycles are, what? 103.3 times
>>>> more deadly then those terribly scary guns.
>>>>
>>>> In fact Frank, hands and feet kill more people then mass shootings.
>>>> More in one year then the 512 killed by mass shootings in 72 years.
>>>> --
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> John B.
>>
>> Choose your anecdotes.
>> On 11 September 2001 some 3000 people died, attackers used
>> cheap plastic box knives.
>
> And another guy, in a different event, tried to use a shoe, didn't he
> (:-)
>

Right. Among the most pathetic, but not as bad as the sap
with the 'rectum bomb' who failed to kill a Saudi Royal as
he didn't understand that a human body is a natural 'blast
blanket'. His viscera dissipated the effects.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 20:36:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/7/2022 7:56 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 19:07:06 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/7/2022 5:47 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles, guns are used to kill people. ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for "mass killings" by
>>>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those perpetrated by those
>>>>>> shooting guns?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass killing," but one
>>>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is killing three or more
>>>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time period.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Compare with these:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>> Well,
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer of 4 people in southern California. He killed these people at a half dozen or so different locations over several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>>>>
>>>> Lets do some math after the fact. 4 dead from the machete knife. 22 + 9 dead from guns. 675% more deaths from guns than machete. 27 extra deaths from the guns. I suspect the 27 extra dead in Texas and Ohio wished the killer had a knife or machete than a gun. They might be alive. But are dead since a gun was used. Not a knife. Now for the 4 killed with the machete, they would be dead whether a gun or machete was used. But how many extra dead would there be if the machete killer used a gun instead? It is slightly odd since the machete killer was carrying a gun. But chose to kill with a machete instead of the gun.
>>>>
>>>> Will eliminating guns stop murders? No. Will eliminating guns stop mass murders? No. I am fairly certain the devoted mass murderer will figure out an ingenious way to kill people even without a gun. But it will make murder and mass murders more difficult. Make the killers work more and really earn it. Hard work makes America great I have been told.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> And, of course you will now leap into the fray and argue that "Oh my
>>>>> goodness, but guns have killed more then knives"...
>>>>>
>>>>> And I will cheerfully point out that bicycles have killed more then
>>>>> mass shootings. Some 52,903 over the period 1946 - 2018 while guns, in
>>>>> mass shootings, killed only 512 from 1949 - 2021.
>>>>>
>>>>> Based on those figures it appears that bicycles are, what? 103.3 times
>>>>> more deadly then those terribly scary guns.
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact Frank, hands and feet kill more people then mass shootings.
>>>>> More in one year then the 512 killed by mass shootings in 72 years.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>
>>> Choose your anecdotes.
>>> On 11 September 2001 some 3000 people died, attackers used
>>> cheap plastic box knives.
>>
>> And another guy, in a different event, tried to use a shoe, didn't he
>> (:-)
>>
>
>Right. Among the most pathetic, but not as bad as the sap
>with the 'rectum bomb' who failed to kill a Saudi Royal as
>he didn't understand that a human body is a natural 'blast
>blanket'. His viscera dissipated the effects.

I had to look that one up and it appears there has been at least one
more attempt, an Afghan who went boom and his target Afghanistan’s spy
chief, Asadullah Khalid received "some wounds".

Also I saw mention of a "turban Bomb" that was successful.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 6:58:35 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:11:39 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >On 3/6/2022 9:21 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 5:25:57 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 14:28:46 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:09:32 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 17:17:01 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 11:54:38 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 8:43 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 20:02:22 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 7:03 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 12:58:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/3/2022 9:47 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 20:48:51 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/3/2022 8:29 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:49 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Assault rifles" as in commonly used language - rifles with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multiple design features originally and purposely included
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for effectiveness in assault or other combat.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, some people prefer to restrict the definition to those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guns having built in full auto capability. Some do not use
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that restriction.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If accessories are readily available to allow emptying a 30
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round magazine in much less than ten seconds, I think the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restricted definition is worthless. That capability is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intended for combat or assault.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The thing is that nearly all "improvements" in firearm design was
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> intended to make them a more effective combat weapon.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> John, IIRC you've said you used to hunt. I assume you used a shotgun or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a rifle, as is typical with most hunters.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Care to tell us what models, and what design features it had that made
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> it a "more effective combat weapon," as opposed to a better hunting weapon?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Well, tell me what a "better hunting weapon" is.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> But your argue is ridiculous at best. I say that nearly all
> >>>>>>>>>>>> improvements were intended to make then more effective combat weapons"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and you start talking about hunting.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> My first rifle was a ,22 single shot bolt action Winchester rifle. the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> first single shot bolt action rifle was developed by von Dreyse and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> used by the army of Prussia in 1841.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> In later years I built "varmint rifles" based on the "short mauser"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> actions - all surplus from some army or another, a bolt action, action
> >>>>>>>>>>>> with a magazine, developed by Peter Paul and Wilhelm Mauser and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> accepted by the Prussian government on 2 December 1871.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I could go on but why bother as just about any firearm you can mention
> >>>>>>>>>>>> is, or has been, used by the military or law enforcement and with the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> exception of the early "Elephant Rifles" I can think of no "guns"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> developed solely for hunting,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Tell us more about your hunting rifles. Did they have a shorter barrel
> >>>>>>>>>>> length, like an AR, or longer barrel length like most other rifles?
> >>>>>>>>>>> Barrels as short as 15 inches are great for street warfare. Most hunters
> >>>>>>>>>>> want something well over 20 inches.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Did your hunting rifles have pistol grips? They're very handy if you've
> >>>>>>>>>>> got to jump and dodge around to avoid real or pretend enemy fire. Did
> >>>>>>>>>>> the squirrels and woodchucks fire back at you, making that grip necessary?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> How big was the magazine, and how fast was the action on your hunting
> >>>>>>>>>>> rifle? Could you empty a 30 round magazine into a rabbit in less than
> >>>>>>>>>>> ten seconds? And hey, could you fit a drum magazine in case 30 rounds
> >>>>>>>>>>> didn't take down that rabbit?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Did you use a "red dot" sight? You can get on target SO much faster,
> >>>>>>>>>>> which is handy if the deer you're after is also shooting back at you.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I could go on, but I'd appreciate answers to those questions instead of
> >>>>>>>>>>> evasions.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> You know Frank, I believe that you have really "gone right round the
> >>>>>>>>>> bend" as they used to say. A 15" barrel is great for street fighting?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> But o.k. Barrel lengths:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Barrel length, from a technical view point, is based on two things.
> >>>>>>>>>> (1) the necessary length to allow for burning the majority of the
> >>>>>>>>>> powder charge.
> >>>>>>>>>> This is the reason that slow burning black powder weapons had a much
> >>>>>>>>>> long barrel then is necessary for modern fast burning smokeless powder
> >>>>>>>>>> weapons. And:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> (2) to provide, with "iron sights", the necessary length between the
> >>>>>>>>>> front and rear sight to produce accuracy.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Oh yes, I forget, with a military weapon a longer barrel was thought
> >>>>>>>>>> to make a better weapon when the bayonet was attached as in years gone
> >>>>>>>>>> by the basic Infantry tactic was to march, in formation, up to,
> >>>>>>>>>> perhaps 50 yards, or even closer, to the enemy. Present the musket,
> >>>>>>>>>> fire, and charge with the bayonet.
> >>>>>>>>>> This was highly successful in wars from about 1420 until the invention
> >>>>>>>>>> of the Minne Bullet, in the mid 1800's.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Next question, big magazines... Well, rifles and pistols have had
> >>>>>>>>>> "large" magazines for years and years. .22 rifles have had magazines
> >>>>>>>>>> that extended the full length of the barrel, certainly as ling as I've
> >>>>>>>>>> been around. And, as I have repeatedly mentioned 30 round magazines
> >>>>>>>>>> have been available for the German Luger, since WW I days.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Lets see... Red Dot sights. That is a subject abut which I have no
> >>>>>>>>>> personal knowledge but optical sights, in general were first made
> >>>>>>>>>> because it allowed the shooter to see better and thus aim more
> >>>>>>>>>> accurately then with the so called "iron sights".
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> But more to the point.
> >>>>>>>>>> Why this irrational terror regarding modern firearms? After all you
> >>>>>>>>>> are, statistically, in twice as much danger from a Black man with
> >>>>>>>>>> his fist clenched then you are from the terrifying AR type of firearm.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> John, you carefully avoided answering each question.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Based on that, I assume not one of the features I asked about was on
> >>>>>>>>> your hunting guns.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Which is not surprising. Those features, common on ARs, are rarely worth
> >>>>>>>>> having on a gun used for hunting. Their value is for combat situations.
> >>>>>>>>> Or for pretending to be in a combat situation.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Yes, you did state "hunting rifles" and I replied to you giving you
> >>>>>>>> the technically answers to your questions - with the exception of the
> >>>>>>>> red dot things which I'm not familiar with.
> >>>>>>> You replied by assiduously evading my direct questions about your
> >>>>>>> specific guns. Can't you be man enough to own up to it?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Not to take John's side or your side in this rousing argument. But I do not think wise, intelligent, thinking people talk about their own personal guns in public. That is something only done by YouTube idiots and other senseless braggarts. There are some things, like your social security number, or your favorite sex positions, that should not be talked about in public. Detailed gun ownership is one of them.
> >>>>> Well, I wouldn't exactly say that. It is quite common for, target
> >>>>> shooters, for example to extol the advantages or bemoan the decencies
> >>>>> of the gun that they are using.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes in certain situations, a person can and does brag about his equipment. As you state, sharp shooting rifles with twelve different scopes and lenses on them and various adjustable weights hanging on them to counter balance the rotation of the earth and gravity. Used exclusively by target shooters in competitions. Or Revolutionary war or Daniel Boone recreators. They may wax eloquently about their flintlock rifle and authentic hand made black powder and hand cast lead bullets they fire out of their beloved rifles. But for the average, general public citizen, it is very unwise to publicly discuss and disclose the guns they own. And for your target shooters, they are carrying on their conversations exclusively with other target shooters.
> >>> Well, I'm not sure about the home made black powder. I've actually
> >>> made some and discovered why "grained" or "corned" gunpowder became so
> >>> popular (:-)
> >>>
> >>> But why ever not talk about guns? Or girls? Or how much whiskey you
> >>> drank at the party last Saturday night? All of which, I might note, I
> >>> have heard discussed in various groups.
> >>>
> >>> Or even bicycles, for that matter?
> >>> --
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>> John B.
> >>
> >> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles, guns are used to kill people. There is danger involved with the gun. Either for the gun owner or another party. A made up scenario to illustrate my point. A bad person is looking for a gun for a future crime. A gun registered or not registered to someone else. Not to the bad person. They hear someone talking about all the guns they own. The bad person says I will rob that person. And since I know he has guns, I will kill first, rob later. And I will be prepared with another gun to start, or with a knife ready to stab and slash first. Not a typical robbery. I am assuming in a typical robbery the criminal tries to make it as easy for themselves as possible. They watch a potential target and time it so no one is home or at the store. Then they break in and steal stuff. Easier to break in if no one is there. Easier to steal if no one is there to stop you. Easier to get away if no one is there to stop you. Criminals
> >are not all stupid. They think about how to do the crime.
> >>
> >
> >
> >That scenario is common:
> >https://ktla.com/news/police-homeowner-shoots-kills-intruder-in-fontana/
> Well, I can hear you talking but I'm not sure that I agree. I've owned
> firearms since I was 12 years old and I have never been reticent about
> talking about them. My father owned guns, my grandfather owned guns
> and was a noted hunter in our small town and I can't remember anyone
> getting robbed because they had a gun.

On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 21:25:59 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 6:58:35 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:11:39 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>> >On 3/6/2022 9:21 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 5:25:57 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> >>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 14:28:46 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:09:32 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 17:17:01 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 11:54:38 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 8:43 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 20:02:22 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 7:03 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 12:58:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/3/2022 9:47 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 20:48:51 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/3/2022 8:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:49 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Assault rifles" as in commonly used language - rifles with
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multiple design features originally and purposely included
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for effectiveness in assault or other combat.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, some people prefer to restrict the definition to those
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guns having built in full auto capability. Some do not use
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that restriction.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If accessories are readily available to allow emptying a 30
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round magazine in much less than ten seconds, I think the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restricted definition is worthless. That capability is
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intended for combat or assault.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The thing is that nearly all "improvements" in firearm design was
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> intended to make them a more effective combat weapon.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> John, IIRC you've said you used to hunt. I assume you used a shotgun or
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a rifle, as is typical with most hunters.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Care to tell us what models, and what design features it had that made
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> it a "more effective combat weapon," as opposed to a better hunting weapon?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Well, tell me what a "better hunting weapon" is.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> But your argue is ridiculous at best. I say that nearly all
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> improvements were intended to make then more effective combat weapons"
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and you start talking about hunting.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> My first rifle was a ,22 single shot bolt action Winchester rifle. the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> first single shot bolt action rifle was developed by von Dreyse and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> used by the army of Prussia in 1841.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In later years I built "varmint rifles" based on the "short mauser"
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> actions - all surplus from some army or another, a bolt action, action
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> with a magazine, developed by Peter Paul and Wilhelm Mauser and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> accepted by the Prussian government on 2 December 1871.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I could go on but why bother as just about any firearm you can mention
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> is, or has been, used by the military or law enforcement and with the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> exception of the early "Elephant Rifles" I can think of no "guns"
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> developed solely for hunting,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Tell us more about your hunting rifles. Did they have a shorter barrel
>> >>>>>>>>>>> length, like an AR, or longer barrel length like most other rifles?
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Barrels as short as 15 inches are great for street warfare. Most hunters
>> >>>>>>>>>>> want something well over 20 inches.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Did your hunting rifles have pistol grips? They're very handy if you've
>> >>>>>>>>>>> got to jump and dodge around to avoid real or pretend enemy fire. Did
>> >>>>>>>>>>> the squirrels and woodchucks fire back at you, making that grip necessary?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> How big was the magazine, and how fast was the action on your hunting
>> >>>>>>>>>>> rifle? Could you empty a 30 round magazine into a rabbit in less than
>> >>>>>>>>>>> ten seconds? And hey, could you fit a drum magazine in case 30 rounds
>> >>>>>>>>>>> didn't take down that rabbit?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Did you use a "red dot" sight? You can get on target SO much faster,
>> >>>>>>>>>>> which is handy if the deer you're after is also shooting back at you.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I could go on, but I'd appreciate answers to those questions instead of
>> >>>>>>>>>>> evasions.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> You know Frank, I believe that you have really "gone right round the
>> >>>>>>>>>> bend" as they used to say. A 15" barrel is great for street fighting?
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> But o.k. Barrel lengths:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Barrel length, from a technical view point, is based on two things.
>> >>>>>>>>>> (1) the necessary length to allow for burning the majority of the
>> >>>>>>>>>> powder charge.
>> >>>>>>>>>> This is the reason that slow burning black powder weapons had a much
>> >>>>>>>>>> long barrel then is necessary for modern fast burning smokeless powder
>> >>>>>>>>>> weapons. And:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> (2) to provide, with "iron sights", the necessary length between the
>> >>>>>>>>>> front and rear sight to produce accuracy.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Oh yes, I forget, with a military weapon a longer barrel was thought
>> >>>>>>>>>> to make a better weapon when the bayonet was attached as in years gone
>> >>>>>>>>>> by the basic Infantry tactic was to march, in formation, up to,
>> >>>>>>>>>> perhaps 50 yards, or even closer, to the enemy. Present the musket,
>> >>>>>>>>>> fire, and charge with the bayonet.
>> >>>>>>>>>> This was highly successful in wars from about 1420 until the invention
>> >>>>>>>>>> of the Minne Bullet, in the mid 1800's.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Next question, big magazines... Well, rifles and pistols have had
>> >>>>>>>>>> "large" magazines for years and years. .22 rifles have had magazines
>> >>>>>>>>>> that extended the full length of the barrel, certainly as ling as I've
>> >>>>>>>>>> been around. And, as I have repeatedly mentioned 30 round magazines
>> >>>>>>>>>> have been available for the German Luger, since WW I days.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Lets see... Red Dot sights. That is a subject abut which I have no
>> >>>>>>>>>> personal knowledge but optical sights, in general were first made
>> >>>>>>>>>> because it allowed the shooter to see better and thus aim more
>> >>>>>>>>>> accurately then with the so called "iron sights".
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> But more to the point.
>> >>>>>>>>>> Why this irrational terror regarding modern firearms? After all you
>> >>>>>>>>>> are, statistically, in twice as much danger from a Black man with
>> >>>>>>>>>> his fist clenched then you are from the terrifying AR type of firearm.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> John, you carefully avoided answering each question.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Based on that, I assume not one of the features I asked about was on
>> >>>>>>>>> your hunting guns.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Which is not surprising. Those features, common on ARs, are rarely worth
>> >>>>>>>>> having on a gun used for hunting. Their value is for combat situations.
>> >>>>>>>>> Or for pretending to be in a combat situation.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Yes, you did state "hunting rifles" and I replied to you giving you
>> >>>>>>>> the technically answers to your questions - with the exception of the
>> >>>>>>>> red dot things which I'm not familiar with.
>> >>>>>>> You replied by assiduously evading my direct questions about your
>> >>>>>>> specific guns. Can't you be man enough to own up to it?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Not to take John's side or your side in this rousing argument. But I do not think wise, intelligent, thinking people talk about their own personal guns in public. That is something only done by YouTube idiots and other senseless braggarts. There are some things, like your social security number, or your favorite sex positions, that should not be talked about in public. Detailed gun ownership is one of them.
>> >>>>> Well, I wouldn't exactly say that. It is quite common for, target
>> >>>>> shooters, for example to extol the advantages or bemoan the decencies
>> >>>>> of the gun that they are using.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Yes in certain situations, a person can and does brag about his equipment. As you state, sharp shooting rifles with twelve different scopes and lenses on them and various adjustable weights hanging on them to counter balance the rotation of the earth and gravity. Used exclusively by target shooters in competitions. Or Revolutionary war or Daniel Boone recreators. They may wax eloquently about their flintlock rifle and authentic hand made black powder and hand cast lead bullets they fire out of their beloved rifles. But for the average, general public citizen, it is very unwise to publicly discuss and disclose the guns they own. And for your target shooters, they are carrying on their conversations exclusively with other target shooters.
>> >>> Well, I'm not sure about the home made black powder. I've actually
>> >>> made some and discovered why "grained" or "corned" gunpowder became so
>> >>> popular (:-)
>> >>>
>> >>> But why ever not talk about guns? Or girls? Or how much whiskey you
>> >>> drank at the party last Saturday night? All of which, I might note, I
>> >>> have heard discussed in various groups.
>> >>>
>> >>> Or even bicycles, for that matter?
>> >>> --
>> >>> Cheers,
>> >>>
>> >>> John B.
>> >>
>> >> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles, guns are used to kill people. There is danger involved with the gun. Either for the gun owner or another party. A made up scenario to illustrate my point. A bad person is looking for a gun for a future crime. A gun registered or not registered to someone else. Not to the bad person. They hear someone talking about all the guns they own. The bad person says I will rob that person. And since I know he has guns, I will kill first, rob later. And I will be prepared with another gun to start, or with a knife ready to stab and slash first. Not a typical robbery. I am assuming in a typical robbery the criminal tries to make it as easy for themselves as possible. They watch a potential target and time it so no one is home or at the store. Then they break in and steal stuff. Easier to break in if no one is there. Easier to steal if no one is there to stop you. Easier to get away if no one is there to stop you. Criminals
>> >are not all stupid. They think about how to do the crime.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >That scenario is common:
>> >https://ktla.com/news/police-homeowner-shoots-kills-intruder-in-fontana/
>> Well, I can hear you talking but I'm not sure that I agree. I've owned
>> firearms since I was 12 years old and I have never been reticent about
>> talking about them. My father owned guns, my grandfather owned guns
>> and was a noted hunter in our small town and I can't remember anyone
>> getting robbed because they had a gun.
>
>My comments about not letting everyone know you had guns was more tailored to handguns. Not rifles. For instance, I would assume every single farm house in the countryside has a 22 rifle. And maybe a shotgun too. And handguns are the ones used most in crimes and human shooting. The number of humans killed by rifles or shotguns is tiny compared to the number killed by handguns. Excluding wars and combat where the majority are killed by rifles, not handguns.

On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
> >legal ownership is most restricted:
> >https://cwbchicago.com/
> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon. (:-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

No.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
"During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
"The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not have a waiting period to buy a gun."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
"Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body, along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
"The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)."
"Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22 semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
"Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally by his mother."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
"Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016. He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.

On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:23:53 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> >> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles, guns are used to kill people. ...
> >> >>
> >> >> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
> >> >
> >> >Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for "mass killings" by
> >> >knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those perpetrated by those
> >> >shooting guns?
> >> >
> >> >Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass killing," but one
> >> >accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is killing three or more
> >> >people in close proximity and within a short time period.
> >> >
> >> >Compare with these:
> >> >
> >> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
> >> Well,
> >>
> >> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
> >> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
> >>
> >
> >Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer of 4 people in southern California. He killed these people at a half dozen or so different locations over several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to death 9 people before police shot him to death.
> Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up and down the
> street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work, you know.
>
> But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To get hit,
> unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some maniac running
> down the street hacking and slashing and you know that you can't out
> run him?
>
> And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant "went mad" and
> shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I think) largest
> city.

Yes you told us about him a little while ago. And if my memory is correct, it may not be of course, we talked about since this guy was an official Army sergeant, him taking an official M16 military rifle off base was not too crazy. Of course it was illegal since military guns can only be taken off base for official military operations. And him murdering people was not official military protocol.

>
> In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to illustrate the
> difference in attitudes between here and there. Had this happened in
> the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming about them
> there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was the matter with
> Him"?

In Thailand does this mass murdering by an Army sergeant happen once or twice every single year for the past 20-30 years? If it happens once, as in your example, then chalk it up to random events. But if it happens regularly as in the USA, then maybe something needs to be studied and a solution found.

>
> I suggest that to blame the person that actually did the deed is a far
> more rational approach then blaming what is an basically inert
> mechanical object.

John, do you know that in California, the house and building builders have to make everything earthquake proof. Because earthquakes happen often enough and California scientists have studied the ground and determined that there are fault lines under the earth in California. But in 1811-12 very powerful earthquakes hit New Madrid Missouri. But Missouri does not have any earthquake building laws. Happens once every millennium, blame the earthquake/person. Happens every couple years, blame the houses-buildings/guns.

Although the U.S. does seem - to an outsider at
> least - to try to rationalize, or impersonalize, things to a greater
> extent then I see taking place here. Y'all talk about "traffic deaths"
> or "car deaths" here you are more likely to see something more like
> "Drunk in pickup hits bicycle".
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 21:58:19 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
>> >legal ownership is most restricted:
>> >https://cwbchicago.com/
>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon. (:-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>No.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
>The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
>"During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
>"The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not have a waiting period to buy a gun."
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
>"Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body, along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
>"The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)."
>"Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22 semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
>"Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally by his mother."
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
>"Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016. He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
>In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.

Yup, and certainly mass shootings are crimes, but I had assumed that
what Andrew and were referring to was something more like a guy
robbing the 7-11 or maybe a bank.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/where-do-criminals-get-guns
provides some details.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:57:37 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> Yes, certainly handguns are used in the majority of homicides and
> certainly many, maybe most, farms have a gun or two, if for no other
> reason then to keep the foxes out of the chicken house.

I've lived in the midwest, farm country, my whole life and I don't think I have ever seen a fox in the wild. Coons, possums, deer, yes yes yes. But no foxes. And for chicken coops, almost no one raises chickens at home anymore. There is an egg seller nearby. And my sister and her husband had some chickens. But no farms have chickens anymore. Chicken raising is a factory operation like raising hogs. Big huge buildings with thousands of chickens, or hogs. Everything automated and computer controlled.

On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:42:02 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:57:37 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> Yes, certainly handguns are used in the majority of homicides and
>> certainly many, maybe most, farms have a gun or two, if for no other
>> reason then to keep the foxes out of the chicken house.
>
>I've lived in the midwest, farm country, my whole life and I don't think I have ever seen a fox in the wild. Coons, possums, deer, yes yes yes. But no foxes. And for chicken coops, almost no one raises chickens at home anymore. There is an egg seller nearby. And my sister and her husband had some chickens. But no farms have chickens anymore. Chicken raising is a factory operation like raising hogs. Big huge buildings with thousands of chickens, or hogs. Everything automated and computer controlled.

Well, I can't remember seeing a fox in the wild but the same time my
grandfather used to hunt foxes with a dog and sold the
hides. I doubt that it was a big money thing but he had apparently
been doing it since he was a boy. He used to hunt fox in the fall and
search for Ginseng in the summer. In fact he used to brag that he'd
paid for his Browning shotgun that way.

His cash business was several thousand chickens - I really don't know
how many but two large two story chicken houses. He had the chickens
and, of course, a garden and a "wood lot" where he'd spend about a
month cutting the winter's wood every year. I suspect the last
generation that was truly self sufficient.

My father was a sort of frustrated farmer. We had enough land that we
kept a cow and a couple of pigs and chickens for eggs and occasional
Sunday dinners, although he also worked in the Post Office as his main
source of income. My mother's family had 100 acres of arable land
which in New England, in those days was a lot.

I grew up milking a cow, feeding pigs and weeding gardens in the
summer, and helping with the haying -I used to get 5 cents a load for
helping load the wagon (:-)

All of which made me believe that there must be a better way to make a
living. Although I can claim to know how to drive a team of horses,
milk a cow and chop the heads off chickens with an axe (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:31:47 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:23:53 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >> >> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles, guns are used to kill people. ...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>> >> >
>> >> >Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for "mass killings" by
>> >> >knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those perpetrated by those
>> >> >shooting guns?
>> >> >
>> >> >Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass killing," but one
>> >> >accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is killing three or more
>> >> >people in close proximity and within a short time period.
>> >> >
>> >> >Compare with these:
>> >> >
>> >> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>> >> Well,
>> >>
>> >> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>> >> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>> >>
>> >
>> >Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer of 4 people in southern California. He killed these people at a half dozen or so different locations over several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>> Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up and down the
>> street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work, you know.
>>
>> But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To get hit,
>> unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some maniac running
>> down the street hacking and slashing and you know that you can't out
>> run him?
>>
>> And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant "went mad" and
>> shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I think) largest
>> city.
>
>Yes you told us about him a little while ago. And if my memory is correct, it may not be of course, we talked about since this guy was an official Army sergeant, him taking an official M16 military rifle off base was not too crazy. Of course it was illegal since military guns can only be taken off base for official military operations. And him murdering people was not official military protocol.
>
>
>
>>
>> In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to illustrate the
>> difference in attitudes between here and there. Had this happened in
>> the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming about them
>> there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was the matter with
>> Him"?
>
>In Thailand does this mass murdering by an Army sergeant happen once or twice every single year for the past 20-30 years? If it happens once, as in your example, then chalk it up to random events. But if it happens regularly as in the USA, then maybe something needs to be studied and a solution found.

Nope. Not to say that we don't have shootings. I'm not sure the strict
U.S. definition of "mass shootings" but we do have cases of people
shooting a whole family.

>>
>> I suggest that to blame the person that actually did the deed is a far
>> more rational approach then blaming what is an basically inert
>> mechanical object.
>
>John, do you know that in California, the house and building builders have to make everything earthquake proof. Because earthquakes happen often enough and California scientists have studied the ground and determined that there are fault lines under the earth in California. But in 1811-12 very powerful earthquakes hit New Madrid Missouri. But Missouri does not have any earthquake building laws. Happens once every millennium, blame the earthquake/person. Happens every couple years, blame the houses-buildings/guns.

Yup California has the famous San Andreas fault and a number of
others. But when they have a big earthquake, the 2019 Ridgecrest quake
I believe it still causes a significant amount of damage.Some $1
billion in damages according to U.S. Geological Survey.

And as I said about shootings nobody blames the houses for falling
down or the road falling in. They say "The quake did it".

As somebody said years ago, "guns don't shoot people, people shoot
people". So why blame guns?
--
Cheers,

John B.

Am 08.03.2022 um 07:42 schrieb russellseaton1@yahoo.com:
> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:57:37 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> Yes, certainly handguns are used in the majority of homicides and
>> certainly many, maybe most, farms have a gun or two, if for no
>> other reason then to keep the foxes out of the chicken house.
>
> I've lived in the midwest, farm country, my whole life and I don't
> think I have ever seen a fox in the wild.
Most foxes I've seen were in suburbia. IIRC, in England there are
around 2 foxes / sq km (5 foxes per square mile) in farm land and 5
foxes / sq km (13 foxes per square mile) in urban/suburban settings.
Eating food out of trash cans is so much easier than traditional food
sources.

On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon. (:-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
> No.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not have a waiting period to buy a gun."
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body, along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)."
> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22 semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally by his mother."
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016. He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
>

So we can agree that laws, no matter how restrictive and
punitive to the general population, are not effective
against psychopaths, jihadis and the like.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/8/2022 12:41 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 21:58:19 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
>>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
>>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
>>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon. (:-)
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John B.
>>
>> No.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
>> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
>> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
>> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not have a waiting period to buy a gun."
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
>> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body, along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
>> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)."
>> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22 semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
>> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally by his mother."
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
>> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016. He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
>> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
>
> Yup, and certainly mass shootings are crimes, but I had assumed that
> what Andrew and were referring to was something more like a guy
> robbing the 7-11 or maybe a bank.
> https://www.foxnews.com/us/where-do-criminals-get-guns
> provides some details.
>

The regular steady incremental piles of bodies are ignored
by most people who concentrate on rare dramatic events:

http://heyjackass.com/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/8/2022 12:42 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:57:37 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> Yes, certainly handguns are used in the majority of homicides and
>> certainly many, maybe most, farms have a gun or two, if for no other
>> reason then to keep the foxes out of the chicken house.
>
> I've lived in the midwest, farm country, my whole life and I don't think I have ever seen a fox in the wild. Coons, possums, deer, yes yes yes. But no foxes. And for chicken coops, almost no one raises chickens at home anymore. There is an egg seller nearby. And my sister and her husband had some chickens. But no farms have chickens anymore. Chicken raising is a factory operation like raising hogs. Big huge buildings with thousands of chickens, or hogs. Everything automated and computer controlled.
>

You would be wrong about that:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/backyard-chicken-trend-turns-deadly/

https://thehustle.co/how-much-does-it-cost-to-raise-chickens-coronavirus/

Shambolic inefficiency and a public health menace doesn't
stop trends.

Also, I don't know from Iowa but here we have more coyotes
than foxes eating chicken.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/8/2022 8:10 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 08.03.2022 um 07:42 schrieb russellseaton1@yahoo.com:
>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:57:37 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>> Yes, certainly handguns are used in the majority of
>>> homicides and certainly many, maybe most, farms have a
>>> gun or two, if for no
>>> other reason then to keep the foxes out of the chicken
>>> house.
>>
>> I've lived in the midwest, farm country, my whole life and
>> I don't
>> think I have ever seen a fox in the wild.
> Most foxes I've seen were in suburbia. IIRC, in England
> there are around 2 foxes / sq km (5 foxes per square mile)
> in farm land and 5 foxes / sq km (13 foxes per square mile)
> in urban/suburban settings.
> Eating food out of trash cans is so much easier than
> traditional food sources.

Insignificant? Until it's your chicken!

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon. (:-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
> No.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not have a waiting period to buy a gun."
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body, along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)."
> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22 semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally by his mother."
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016. He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
>

24 dead in not a mass shooting:

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2021/11/11/murder-spree-billy-chemirmir-committing-texas/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 6:26:42 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 12:41 AM, John B. wrote:
> > On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 21:58:19 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
> >>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
> >>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
> >>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
> >>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon. (:-)
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>> John B.
> >>
> >> No.
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
> >> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
> >> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
> >> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not have a waiting period to buy a gun."
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
> >> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body, along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
> >> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)."
> >> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22 semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
> >> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally by his mother."
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
> >> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016. He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
> >> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
> >
> > Yup, and certainly mass shootings are crimes, but I had assumed that
> > what Andrew and were referring to was something more like a guy
> > robbing the 7-11 or maybe a bank.
> > https://www.foxnews.com/us/where-do-criminals-get-guns
> > provides some details.
> >
> The regular steady incremental piles of bodies are ignored
> by most people who concentrate on rare dramatic events:
>
> http://heyjackass.com/

I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good". California was so bad that they were trying to force off duty police and federal law enforcement officers to leave their guns locked in a safe in their workplace and only allow them to carry means of self defense during working hours. That they would even discuss such things shows that human life is of no meaning to them at all.