On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 10:41:46 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 2/19/2022 6:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/19/2022 1:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 2/19/2022 11:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 2/18/2022 9:03 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Disregarding the ".22 caliber", my own choice would be a
>>>>> 12 gauge
>>>>> shotgun, either pump or automatic and probably loaded with
>>>>> "buck shot"
>>>>> as I believe that I can injure, incapacitate, whatever,
>>>>> more people
>>>>> per round fired then is possible with an AR-whatever.
>>>>
>>>> And I agree. A shotgun is much more logical than an AR for
>>>> home defense - not that I need either for that purpose.
>>>>
>>>> But shotguns don't make a guy feel like Rambo.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> How do you know what other men feel?
>>
>> I talk to them, Andrew. I have friends who have invited me
>> to machine gun shoots, who bragged about doing things there
>> like blowing up junk cars and refrigerators. I have a
>> non-gun-nut friend who talked about how shooting an AR
>> "really makes you feel cool."
>>
>> What's this pot-bellied dude
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW1LZKJmtbw
>> doing at 0:50 to 0:55 and 3:10 to 3:16 if not playing Rambo?
>>
>>
>>
>
>Oh, full auto. I thought we were discussing AR-15.
>
>Full auto rifles are vanishingly rare*. Not all ranges even
>allow them. They're a distinct outlier. I have never fired
>one but even non-firearms owners can't shut up about the
>experience. (a photographer/cyclist I know was enthralled
>and overwhelmed when the range officer at a nearby military
>base offered her a session with an M4)
>
>Out of roughly 12 million Ohioans, there are about 18,000
>full auto (the bulk of which are owned by collectors).
>http://metrocosm.com/map-of-federally-regulated-weapons/
>(click your state on the interactive map)
>
>p.s. The entire country has under a half million NFA full
>auto rifles/pistols altogether:
>https://www.nfatca.org/pubs/MG_Count_FOIA_2016.pdf
>
>*And licensed are virtually unknown in crime. Even illegal
>full auto rifles are extremely rare in crimes.

Unlike Frank, I've actually fired the "M-16", actually the AR-15, both
semi and full automatic. This was way back when the Air Force first
adopted the gun. Maybe 1962 - 3 - 4?

And to be frank I was not impressed at all. I found it difficult to
fire single shots accurately... it was extremely light and seemed
poorly balanced in relation to other rifles I'd shot and on full
automatic it was nearly uncontrollable in the fire control sense. The
absolute best I could do, prone with the rifle resting on a block was
3 round bursts, you couldn't get your finger off the trigger quick
enough.

However, at the time I was shooting on both pistol and big bore rifle
teams so aimed shots was my basic concept of shooting. If the idea was
to spray the bushes with bullets in the hope of hitting something
then, of course, the AR was superior.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 09:10:09 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 12:39:02 AM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > On 2/18/2022 9:03 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Disregarding the ".22 caliber", my own choice would be a 12 gauge
>> > > shotgun, either pump or automatic and probably loaded with "buck shot"
>> > > as I believe that I can injure, incapacitate, whatever, more people
>> > > per round fired then is possible with an AR-whatever.
>> > And I agree. A shotgun is much more logical than an AR for home defense
>> > - not that I need either for that purpose.
>> >
>> > But shotguns don't make a guy feel like Rambo.
>> > --
>> > - Frank Krygowski
>> The Remington 870 pump shotgun ONLY allows a maximum of about 9 shells on a special model. 5 or 6 shells on most pump shotguns. Rambo would have had to spend half the movie reloading his shotgun instead of killing an endless line of people. If he was using a shotgun. And if you only have 5 or 6 shells in your pump shotgun, how are you going to kill the 7th killer breaking into your house to kill you? With an AR-15 you can get 20 or 30 round magazines. And everyone knows its far far far far far more likely that 7 people will come to kill you than it is for 21 or 31 people to come kill you.
>https://www.kygunco.com/product/typhoon-defense-f121301s-f12-12ga-ceracamo-w-long-forend
>
>That is a 10 round clip fed 12 gauge with an open bore to fire .00 buckshot. The clips may be changed in seconds. Why don't you tell us all about your view of Rambo?

Oh the brilliance of the bloke.

First all, all 12 gauge shotguns made today, will fire "double ought"
shot shells and secondly "00" shot is not .00 it is actually .330.

And as for "Rambo" well, like The Lone Ranger he was simply the
product of someone's imagination.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 2/20/2022 2:03 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/20/2022 11:11 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/20/2022 11:41 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 2/19/2022 6:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 2/19/2022 1:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 2/19/2022 11:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/18/2022 9:03 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Disregarding the ".22 caliber", my own choice would be a
>>>>>>> 12 gauge
>>>>>>> shotgun, either pump or automatic and probably loaded
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> "buck shot"
>>>>>>> as I believe that I can injure, incapacitate, whatever,
>>>>>>> more people
>>>>>>> per round fired then is possible with an AR-whatever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I agree. A shotgun is much more logical than an AR for
>>>>>> home defense - not that I need either for that purpose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But shotguns don't make a guy feel like Rambo.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> How do you know what other men feel?
>>>>
>>>> I talk to them, Andrew. I have friends who have invited me
>>>> to machine gun shoots, who bragged about doing things there
>>>> like blowing up junk cars and refrigerators. I have a
>>>> non-gun-nut friend who talked about how shooting an AR
>>>> "really makes you feel cool."
>>>>
>>>> What's this pot-bellied dude
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW1LZKJmtbw
>>>> doing at 0:50 to 0:55 and 3:10 to 3:16 if not playing Rambo?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Oh, full auto. I thought we were discussing AR-15.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3gf_5MR4tE
>>
>> Unassisted. And how charming that he's choosing human
>> silhouettes!
>>
>
> Really? Standard target shapes trigger you?
> Perhaps undead humans be better?
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rangnat.jpg

Let's review. I said that whatever their other uses, AR rifles are
optimized for combat; that was the essence of the design. And AR guys
play at being Rambo. They imagine themselves in combat. I gave examples
of guys I know well, and I linked a video of an out of shape middle aged
guy doing precisely that. The use of a human silhouette confirms the
mentality.

You implied it didn't count because he was on full auto.

But some guys can shoot very fast without full auto. They can fit bump
stocks, or just spend hours developing a really fast finger. Pot bellied
Rambos can feel good about themselves as long as their gun looks tough
and they can pretend to be blasting bad guys.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/20/2022 8:15 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 10:41:46 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2/19/2022 6:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 2/19/2022 1:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 2/19/2022 11:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 2/18/2022 9:03 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Disregarding the ".22 caliber", my own choice would be a
>>>>>> 12 gauge
>>>>>> shotgun, either pump or automatic and probably loaded with
>>>>>> "buck shot"
>>>>>> as I believe that I can injure, incapacitate, whatever,
>>>>>> more people
>>>>>> per round fired then is possible with an AR-whatever.
>>>>>
>>>>> And I agree. A shotgun is much more logical than an AR for
>>>>> home defense - not that I need either for that purpose.
>>>>>
>>>>> But shotguns don't make a guy feel like Rambo.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How do you know what other men feel?
>>>
>>> I talk to them, Andrew. I have friends who have invited me
>>> to machine gun shoots, who bragged about doing things there
>>> like blowing up junk cars and refrigerators. I have a
>>> non-gun-nut friend who talked about how shooting an AR
>>> "really makes you feel cool."
>>>
>>> What's this pot-bellied dude
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW1LZKJmtbw
>>> doing at 0:50 to 0:55 and 3:10 to 3:16 if not playing Rambo?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Oh, full auto. I thought we were discussing AR-15.
>>
>> Full auto rifles are vanishingly rare*. Not all ranges even
>> allow them. They're a distinct outlier. I have never fired
>> one but even non-firearms owners can't shut up about the
>> experience. (a photographer/cyclist I know was enthralled
>> and overwhelmed when the range officer at a nearby military
>> base offered her a session with an M4)
>>
>> Out of roughly 12 million Ohioans, there are about 18,000
>> full auto (the bulk of which are owned by collectors).
>> http://metrocosm.com/map-of-federally-regulated-weapons/
>> (click your state on the interactive map)
>>
>> p.s. The entire country has under a half million NFA full
>> auto rifles/pistols altogether:
>> https://www.nfatca.org/pubs/MG_Count_FOIA_2016.pdf
>>
>> *And licensed are virtually unknown in crime. Even illegal
>> full auto rifles are extremely rare in crimes.
>
> Unlike Frank, I've actually fired the "M-16", actually the AR-15, both
> semi and full automatic. This was way back when the Air Force first
> adopted the gun. Maybe 1962 - 3 - 4?
>
> And to be frank I was not impressed at all. I found it difficult to
> fire single shots accurately... it was extremely light and seemed
> poorly balanced in relation to other rifles I'd shot and on full
> automatic it was nearly uncontrollable in the fire control sense. The
> absolute best I could do, prone with the rifle resting on a block was
> 3 round bursts, you couldn't get your finger off the trigger quick
> enough.
>
> However, at the time I was shooting on both pistol and big bore rifle
> teams so aimed shots was my basic concept of shooting. If the idea was
> to spray the bushes with bullets in the hope of hitting something
> then, of course, the AR was superior.

Thanks. You're confirming a lot of what I've said about the design and
purpose of the gun.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 11:18:45 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 2/20/2022 3:10 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 12:51:58 AM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 19:50:25 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 5:23:08 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:05:56 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/19/2022 12:16 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And "big Magazines" Oh Horrors!
>>>>>>> But of course the Luger pistol had a 30 round magazine way back in WW
>>>>>>> I days and several current pistols, the Glock 18 comes standard with a
>>>>>>> 20 round capacity and 31 round magazines are available and the Glock
>>>>>>> 17 can also be fitted with a 30 round magazine, and the Kel-Tec PMR 30
>>>>>>> has a standard capacity of 30 rounds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, apparently semi automatic rifles aren't inherent scary and 30
>>>>>>> round magazines aren't scary so why when you combing a small bore semi
>>>>>>> automatic rifle with a 30 round magazine does it become such a
>>>>>>> fearsome weapon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I might comment that a full length magazines for a 12 gauge shotguns
>>>>>>> are available. In fact the "Century Arms Catamount Fury II" is a 12
>>>>>>> gauge shotgun that comes standard with a 30 round magazine, and I'm
>>>>>>> pretty sure that 30 rounds of 12 gauge buckshot is are more lethal
>>>>>>> then 30 rounds of .22 bullets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your argument does not prove high capacity magazines are perfectly fine.
>>>>>> I'd say it indicates the need for laws against high capacity magazines
>>>>>> on any firearm.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Advantages vs. disadvantages, John! A disadvantage of a high capacity
>>>>>> magazine is that it enables mass shootings and rapid fire gun battles,
>>>>>> including between gang members and against cops.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What are the advantages of high capacity magazines for non-criminal gun
>>>>>> users? Do hunters really need to put more than (say) ten bullets into a
>>>>>> rabbit or deer? Do target shooters really need fewer pauses to reload?
>>>>> And you know all this? How?
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you an experienced target shooter? I am, USAF Rifle and Pistol
>>>>> Teams, both Base and Major command. In later years I did considerable
>>>>> Trap Shooting, and participated in many Trap Shooting computations (In
>>>>> Ohio too).
>>>>>
>>>>> You are an experienced hunter? I am, I've owned a rifle since I was 12
>>>>> years old and hunted critters ranging from rabbets to Moose.
>>>>>
>>>>> In addition I worked as a gun smith for a number of years and as a
>>>>> result came in contact with a very large number of "shooters".
>>>>
>>>> I don't doubt that you've done what you say. Therefore, you should be able to answer my question!
>>>> What are the great advantages of 30 round magazines? Who needs them? Why?
>>>>
>>>> (Besides people in combat or pretend combat, that is.)
>>>>
>>>> The disadvantages seem obvious: abetting mass shootings. What are the real advantages?
>>>>
>>>> Your answer?
>>>>
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>> Well, I guess the most obvious answer is "because someone wants one".
>>> Rather like the answer "why does someone want a plastic bicycle?" Or
>>> Why does one want a bicycle at all?"
>>>
>>> You argue that "big magazines abetting mass shootings" and yet
>>> statistics don't seem to justify that statement.
>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/476409/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-weapon-types-used/
>>> Rifles were used in 26% of the shootings and pistols in 61%
>>> So shouldn't you be crying about pistols.
>>>
>>> Or FBI data which shows that in 2019 pistols were used in 62% of all
>>> shooting homicides.
>>> In fact the same statistics show that only 3% of shooting homicides
>>> were carried out with rifles which might, or might not, have large
>>> magazines.
>>>
>>> As I said, you are becoming a Crotchety Old Man and rather then argue
>>> facts you continue with these "delusions" - there is no other name for
>>> them - just as Tom does.
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John B.
>>
>> Frank did say "abetting mass shootings".
>> This from Wikipedia:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>> "Gun Violence Archive, frequently cited by the press, defines a mass shooting as firearm violence resulting in at least four people being shot at roughly the same time and location, excluding the perpetrator. Using this definition, there have been 2,128 mass shootings since 2013, roughly one per day."
>> "The United States has had more mass shootings than any other country."
>> "Several types of guns have been used in mass shootings in the United States. A 2014 study conducted by Dr. James Fox of 142 shootings found that 88 (62%) were committed with handguns of all types; 68 (48%) with semi-automatic handguns, 20 (14%) with revolvers, 35 (25%) with semi-automatic rifles, and 19 (13%) with shotguns. The study was conducted using the Mother Jones database of mass shootings from 1982 to 2018. High capacity magazines were used in approximately half of mass shootings. Semi-automatic rifles have been used in six of the ten deadliest mass shooting events."
>>
>> Key points in the above quotes are (1) "High capacity magazines were used in approximately half of mass shootings." AND (2) "Semi-automatic rifles have been used in six of the ten DEADLIEST mass shooting events."
>>
>> The best (worst) mass shooting in the USA was the Las Vegas concert hotel killing in 2017. 60 dead.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
>> "Twenty-four firearms, a large quantity of ammunition, and numerous high-capacity magazines capable of holding up to 100 rounds apiece were found in the suite.[142][143] Fourteen of the firearms were .223-caliber AR-15-type semi-automatic rifles..........The others were eight .308-caliber AR-10-type rifles.............Paddock was found to have fired a total of 1,058 rounds from fifteen of the firearms: 1,049 from twelve AR-15-style rifles, eight from two AR-10-style rifles, and the round used to kill himself from the Smith & Wesson revolver."
>>
>> Slightly humorous he used the revolver to kill himself.
>>
>
>And then there are definitions of terms.
>
>If 'mass shooting' is 'four hit' that's known in Chicago as
>'Wednesday'. pfft.
>
>What's 'high capacity' in a world where 30 rounds is a
>standard magazine? You might argue that what people like is
>evil (and that's an argument. I think you're mistaken but
>you could argue it) but what people actually buy are
>30-round magazines, both rifle and pistol. They're the
>700-25PV tube of the firearms industry.

Well.... it might be noted that in the period from 1949 to 2021 the
number of mass shooting deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
was 502 people.

In 1949 alone there were
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclist_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year
550 bicycle deaths.
And, by 2018 there had been 49,953 more deaths.

And before anyone argues that Oh, my goodness there are so many
cyclists let me add that

https://www.statista.com/statistics/249740/percentage-of-households-in-the-united-states-owning-a-firearm/
42% if families have access to firearms and

there are some128.45 (million) families
https://financesonline.com/number-of-us-households/
and
there seem to be abut 2.6 persons to each family
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/HSD410219
so 128.45 x ,42 = 53.949 x 2.6 = 140.267 million
with access to guns,

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191204/participants-in-bicycling-in-the-us-since-2006/
says that there are some 53.73 million cyclists.

On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 11:10:14 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 12:39:02 AM UTC-8, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 2/18/2022 9:03 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Disregarding the ".22 caliber", my own choice would be a 12 gauge
> > > > shotgun, either pump or automatic and probably loaded with "buck shot"
> > > > as I believe that I can injure, incapacitate, whatever, more people
> > > > per round fired then is possible with an AR-whatever.
> > > And I agree. A shotgun is much more logical than an AR for home defense
> > > - not that I need either for that purpose.
> > >
> > > But shotguns don't make a guy feel like Rambo.
> > > --
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> > The Remington 870 pump shotgun ONLY allows a maximum of about 9 shells on a special model. 5 or 6 shells on most pump shotguns. Rambo would have had to spend half the movie reloading his shotgun instead of killing an endless line of people. If he was using a shotgun. And if you only have 5 or 6 shells in your pump shotgun, how are you going to kill the 7th killer breaking into your house to kill you? With an AR-15 you can get 20 or 30 round magazines. And everyone knows its far far far far far more likely that 7 people will come to kill you than it is for 21 or 31 people to come kill you.
> https://www.kygunco.com/product/typhoon-defense-f121301s-f12-12ga-ceracamo-w-long-forend
>
> That is a 10 round clip fed 12 gauge with an open bore to fire .00 buckshot. The clips may be changed in seconds. Why don't you tell us all about your view of Rambo?

Tommy, I do wonder if you have reading comprehension problems. In my post I wrote "The Remington 870 pump shotgun". Your website is not a Remington 870 pump shotgun.

On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 6:55:30 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 00:38:58 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 2/18/2022 9:03 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Disregarding the ".22 caliber", my own choice would be a 12 gauge
> >> > shotgun, either pump or automatic and probably loaded with "buck shot"
> >> > as I believe that I can injure, incapacitate, whatever, more people
> >> > per round fired then is possible with an AR-whatever.
> >> And I agree. A shotgun is much more logical than an AR for home defense
> >> - not that I need either for that purpose.
> >>
> >> But shotguns don't make a guy feel like Rambo.
> >> --
> >> - Frank Krygowski
> >
> >The Remington 870 pump shotgun ONLY allows a maximum of about 9 shells on a special model. 5 or 6 shells on most pump shotguns. Rambo would have had to spend half the movie reloading his shotgun instead of killing an endless line of people. If he was using a shotgun. And if you only have 5 or 6 shells in your pump shotgun, how are you going to kill the 7th killer breaking into your house to kill you? With an AR-15 you can get 20 or 30 round magazines. And everyone knows its far far far far far more likely that 7 people will come to kill you than it is for 21 or 31 people to come kill you.
> Does the 870 hold 9 shells? I owned one but I don't remember how many
> shells it would hold but that sounds like too many (:-)

The Remington 870 pump shotgun has been around for 70+ years now. It comes in many different versions. At least one of them is a black plastic version that looks like a bad -ss military gun with a long tube magazine under the barrel. 9 rounds I believe. And other versions have 8, 7, 6, 5 ,4 rounds. Remington is happy to make an 870 in every Baskin Robbins 31 flavors for its customers. The most popular widely sold version with brown wood stock and forearm has a 5 or 6 tube magazine. $3-400.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Model_870
"Police Magnum – The law enforcement version of the Model 870, the Police Magnum, is chambered in 12 gauge 3" magnum. It can be ordered with two options: a blued or Parkerized steel finish. These models feature a sturdier sear spring, carrier latch spring, and a forged steel extractor (as opposed to the metal injection molded extractor used on the 870 Express variants). The receivers are stamped with the insignia "Remington 870 Police Magnum" beginning 2014. They are equipped with Police Magnum-specific walnut hardwood or polymer stocks which are fitted with sling mounts. The walnut stocks omit the checkering that is present on the Express/Wingmaster variants.. 870 Police Magnum models come with matching walnut or polymer pumps that are decreased in length to prevent interference with most vehicle-mounted rack systems. The shortened pump also allows quick visual inspection of the internal magazine regardless of what position the pump is in, whereas the optional lengthened sport-type pump on other models partially blocks the loading port when it is pulled to the rear position. Police Magnum models are available with 18" or 20" barrels, with or without iron rifle sights, and have a standard magazine tube capacity of four rounds. They can be ordered with a two or three round extended magazine tube from the factory, bringing total capacity to 7 (+1) shotshells (18" barrel) or 8 (+1) shotshells (20" barrel). All Police Magnum barrels come with an improved cylinder choke unless specially ordered to fit the user's needs."

>
> As for X number of shells being enough, or not enough, I wonder. My
> suspicion is if you kick my door in and I fire, say 5 rounds of 00
> buckshot at you and your buddies the fight will be pretty well over
> with.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On 2/20/2022 8:30 PM, John B. wrote:
>
>
> And as for "Rambo" well, like The Lone Ranger he was simply the
> product of someone's imagination.

Of course! And in the 1950s, little kids pretended to be the Lone Ranger
with their cap guns

Most of those kids have matured, but some haven't. Some now pretend to
be Rambo with their AR style rifles.

But only for defense! You never know when a couple dozen guys are going
to simultaneously attack your house! :-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 21:06:14 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/20/2022 2:03 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 2/20/2022 11:11 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 2/20/2022 11:41 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 2/19/2022 6:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 2/19/2022 1:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/19/2022 11:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2/18/2022 9:03 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Disregarding the ".22 caliber", my own choice would be a
>>>>>>>> 12 gauge
>>>>>>>> shotgun, either pump or automatic and probably loaded
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> "buck shot"
>>>>>>>> as I believe that I can injure, incapacitate, whatever,
>>>>>>>> more people
>>>>>>>> per round fired then is possible with an AR-whatever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And I agree. A shotgun is much more logical than an AR for
>>>>>>> home defense - not that I need either for that purpose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But shotguns don't make a guy feel like Rambo.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How do you know what other men feel?
>>>>>
>>>>> I talk to them, Andrew. I have friends who have invited me
>>>>> to machine gun shoots, who bragged about doing things there
>>>>> like blowing up junk cars and refrigerators. I have a
>>>>> non-gun-nut friend who talked about how shooting an AR
>>>>> "really makes you feel cool."
>>>>>
>>>>> What's this pot-bellied dude
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW1LZKJmtbw
>>>>> doing at 0:50 to 0:55 and 3:10 to 3:16 if not playing Rambo?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oh, full auto. I thought we were discussing AR-15.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3gf_5MR4tE
>>>
>>> Unassisted. And how charming that he's choosing human
>>> silhouettes!
>>>
>>
>> Really? Standard target shapes trigger you?
>> Perhaps undead humans be better?
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rangnat.jpg
>
>Let's review. I said that whatever their other uses, AR rifles are
>optimized for combat; that was the essence of the design. And AR guys
>play at being Rambo. They imagine themselves in combat. I gave examples
>of guys I know well, and I linked a video of an out of shape middle aged
>guy doing precisely that. The use of a human silhouette confirms the
>mentality.
>
>You implied it didn't count because he was on full auto.
>
>But some guys can shoot very fast without full auto. They can fit bump
>stocks, or just spend hours developing a really fast finger. Pot bellied
>Rambos can feel good about themselves as long as their gun looks tough
>and they can pretend to be blasting bad guys.

Frank! Frank! Your imagination is running away with you. Why the very
idea of shooting at some, well sort of, man shaped, silhouette? Oh My
God! Horrible!

But what about shooting at empty tin cans at the local dump? Tell us
what that implies?

It certainly can't be shooting "bad guys". Oh maybe it is shooting
"Bad Beans"?

Your arguments are rapidly becoming as delusional as those of Tommy.
I suggest you sit back, take a deep breath, and try for a better grip
on reality.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 21:07:32 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/20/2022 8:15 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 10:41:46 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/19/2022 6:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 2/19/2022 1:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 2/19/2022 11:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/18/2022 9:03 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Disregarding the ".22 caliber", my own choice would be a
>>>>>>> 12 gauge
>>>>>>> shotgun, either pump or automatic and probably loaded with
>>>>>>> "buck shot"
>>>>>>> as I believe that I can injure, incapacitate, whatever,
>>>>>>> more people
>>>>>>> per round fired then is possible with an AR-whatever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I agree. A shotgun is much more logical than an AR for
>>>>>> home defense - not that I need either for that purpose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But shotguns don't make a guy feel like Rambo.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> How do you know what other men feel?
>>>>
>>>> I talk to them, Andrew. I have friends who have invited me
>>>> to machine gun shoots, who bragged about doing things there
>>>> like blowing up junk cars and refrigerators. I have a
>>>> non-gun-nut friend who talked about how shooting an AR
>>>> "really makes you feel cool."
>>>>
>>>> What's this pot-bellied dude
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW1LZKJmtbw
>>>> doing at 0:50 to 0:55 and 3:10 to 3:16 if not playing Rambo?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Oh, full auto. I thought we were discussing AR-15.
>>>
>>> Full auto rifles are vanishingly rare*. Not all ranges even
>>> allow them. They're a distinct outlier. I have never fired
>>> one but even non-firearms owners can't shut up about the
>>> experience. (a photographer/cyclist I know was enthralled
>>> and overwhelmed when the range officer at a nearby military
>>> base offered her a session with an M4)
>>>
>>> Out of roughly 12 million Ohioans, there are about 18,000
>>> full auto (the bulk of which are owned by collectors).
>>> http://metrocosm.com/map-of-federally-regulated-weapons/
>>> (click your state on the interactive map)
>>>
>>> p.s. The entire country has under a half million NFA full
>>> auto rifles/pistols altogether:
>>> https://www.nfatca.org/pubs/MG_Count_FOIA_2016.pdf
>>>
>>> *And licensed are virtually unknown in crime. Even illegal
>>> full auto rifles are extremely rare in crimes.
>>
>> Unlike Frank, I've actually fired the "M-16", actually the AR-15, both
>> semi and full automatic. This was way back when the Air Force first
>> adopted the gun. Maybe 1962 - 3 - 4?
>>
>> And to be frank I was not impressed at all. I found it difficult to
>> fire single shots accurately... it was extremely light and seemed
>> poorly balanced in relation to other rifles I'd shot and on full
>> automatic it was nearly uncontrollable in the fire control sense. The
>> absolute best I could do, prone with the rifle resting on a block was
>> 3 round bursts, you couldn't get your finger off the trigger quick
>> enough.
>>
>> However, at the time I was shooting on both pistol and big bore rifle
>> teams so aimed shots was my basic concept of shooting. If the idea was
>> to spray the bushes with bullets in the hope of hitting something
>> then, of course, the AR was superior.
>
>Thanks. You're confirming a lot of what I've said about the design and
>purpose of the gun.

No, I am not confirming anything. I am merely noting my personal
impressions of the AR-15.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 18:32:39 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 6:55:30 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 00:38:58 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> On 2/18/2022 9:03 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Disregarding the ".22 caliber", my own choice would be a 12 gauge
>> >> > shotgun, either pump or automatic and probably loaded with "buck shot"
>> >> > as I believe that I can injure, incapacitate, whatever, more people
>> >> > per round fired then is possible with an AR-whatever.
>> >> And I agree. A shotgun is much more logical than an AR for home defense
>> >> - not that I need either for that purpose.
>> >>
>> >> But shotguns don't make a guy feel like Rambo.
>> >> --
>> >> - Frank Krygowski
>> >
>> >The Remington 870 pump shotgun ONLY allows a maximum of about 9 shells on a special model. 5 or 6 shells on most pump shotguns. Rambo would have had to spend half the movie reloading his shotgun instead of killing an endless line of people. If he was using a shotgun. And if you only have 5 or 6 shells in your pump shotgun, how are you going to kill the 7th killer breaking into your house to kill you? With an AR-15 you can get 20 or 30 round magazines. And everyone knows its far far far far far more likely that 7 people will come to kill you than it is for 21 or 31 people to come kill you.
>> Does the 870 hold 9 shells? I owned one but I don't remember how many
>> shells it would hold but that sounds like too many (:-)
>
>The Remington 870 pump shotgun has been around for 70+ years now. It comes in many different versions. At least one of them is a black plastic version that looks like a bad -ss military gun with a long tube magazine under the barrel. 9 rounds I believe. And other versions have 8, 7, 6, 5 ,4 rounds. Remington is happy to make an 870 in every Baskin Robbins 31 flavors for its customers. The most popular widely sold version with brown wood stock and forearm has a 5 or 6 tube magazine. $3-400.

Well, I can't really remember but I think I might have paid, maybe,
$100 for mine. I was working part time at a gunsmith shop and the
Owner got me the gun at cost (:-)

I never used it for anything other then shooting "singles" at the Trap
Shoots.

Back in those days the Model 12 Winchester was considered THE pump
shotgun and the 870 a sort of "Johnny come lately" 2nd class sort of
gun.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Model_870>"Police Magnum – The law enforcement version of the Model 870, the Police Magnum, is chambered in 12 gauge 3" magnum. It can be ordered with two options: a blued or Parkerized steel finish. These models feature a sturdier sear spring, carrier latch spring, and a forged steel extractor (as opposed to the metal injection molded extractor used on the 870 Express variants). The receivers are stamped with the insignia "Remington 870 Police Magnum" beginning 2014. They are equipped with Police Magnum-specific walnut hardwood or polymer stocks which are fitted with sling mounts. The walnut stocks omit the checkering that is present on the Express/Wingmaster variants. 870 Police Magnum models come with matching walnut or polymer pumps that are decreased in length to prevent interference with most vehicle-mounted rack systems. The shortened pump also allows quick visual inspection of the internal magazine regardless of what position the pump
is in, whereas the optional lengthened sport-type
>pump on other models partially blocks the loading port when it is pulled to the rear position. Police Magnum models are available with 18" or 20" barrels, with or without iron rifle sights, and have a standard magazine tube capacity of four rounds. They can be ordered with a two or three round extended magazine tube from the factory, bringing total capacity to 7 (+1) shotshells (18" barrel) or 8 (+1) shotshells (20" barrel). All Police Magnum barrels come with an improved cylinder choke unless specially ordered to fit the user's needs."

>> As for X number of shells being enough, or not enough, I wonder. My
>> suspicion is if you kick my door in and I fire, say 5 rounds of 00
>> buckshot at you and your buddies the fight will be pretty well over
>> with.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 8:18:00 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 11:18:45 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >On 2/20/2022 3:10 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 12:51:58 AM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 19:50:25 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
> >>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 5:23:08 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:05:56 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 2/19/2022 12:16 AM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And "big Magazines" Oh Horrors!
> >>>>>>> But of course the Luger pistol had a 30 round magazine way back in WW
> >>>>>>> I days and several current pistols, the Glock 18 comes standard with a
> >>>>>>> 20 round capacity and 31 round magazines are available and the Glock
> >>>>>>> 17 can also be fitted with a 30 round magazine, and the Kel-Tec PMR 30
> >>>>>>> has a standard capacity of 30 rounds.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So, apparently semi automatic rifles aren't inherent scary and 30
> >>>>>>> round magazines aren't scary so why when you combing a small bore semi
> >>>>>>> automatic rifle with a 30 round magazine does it become such a
> >>>>>>> fearsome weapon.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I might comment that a full length magazines for a 12 gauge shotguns
> >>>>>>> are available. In fact the "Century Arms Catamount Fury II" is a 12
> >>>>>>> gauge shotgun that comes standard with a 30 round magazine, and I'm
> >>>>>>> pretty sure that 30 rounds of 12 gauge buckshot is are more lethal
> >>>>>>> then 30 rounds of .22 bullets.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Your argument does not prove high capacity magazines are perfectly fine.
> >>>>>> I'd say it indicates the need for laws against high capacity magazines
> >>>>>> on any firearm.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Advantages vs. disadvantages, John! A disadvantage of a high capacity
> >>>>>> magazine is that it enables mass shootings and rapid fire gun battles,
> >>>>>> including between gang members and against cops.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What are the advantages of high capacity magazines for non-criminal gun
> >>>>>> users? Do hunters really need to put more than (say) ten bullets into a
> >>>>>> rabbit or deer? Do target shooters really need fewer pauses to reload?
> >>>>> And you know all this? How?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Are you an experienced target shooter? I am, USAF Rifle and Pistol
> >>>>> Teams, both Base and Major command. In later years I did considerable
> >>>>> Trap Shooting, and participated in many Trap Shooting computations (In
> >>>>> Ohio too).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You are an experienced hunter? I am, I've owned a rifle since I was 12
> >>>>> years old and hunted critters ranging from rabbets to Moose.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In addition I worked as a gun smith for a number of years and as a
> >>>>> result came in contact with a very large number of "shooters".
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't doubt that you've done what you say. Therefore, you should be able to answer my question!
> >>>> What are the great advantages of 30 round magazines? Who needs them? Why?
> >>>>
> >>>> (Besides people in combat or pretend combat, that is.)
> >>>>
> >>>> The disadvantages seem obvious: abetting mass shootings. What are the real advantages?
> >>>>
> >>>> Your answer?
> >>>>
> >>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>> Well, I guess the most obvious answer is "because someone wants one".
> >>> Rather like the answer "why does someone want a plastic bicycle?" Or
> >>> Why does one want a bicycle at all?"
> >>>
> >>> You argue that "big magazines abetting mass shootings" and yet
> >>> statistics don't seem to justify that statement.
> >>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/476409/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-weapon-types-used/
> >>> Rifles were used in 26% of the shootings and pistols in 61%
> >>> So shouldn't you be crying about pistols.
> >>>
> >>> Or FBI data which shows that in 2019 pistols were used in 62% of all
> >>> shooting homicides.
> >>> In fact the same statistics show that only 3% of shooting homicides
> >>> were carried out with rifles which might, or might not, have large
> >>> magazines.
> >>>
> >>> As I said, you are becoming a Crotchety Old Man and rather then argue
> >>> facts you continue with these "delusions" - there is no other name for
> >>> them - just as Tom does.
> >>> --
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>> John B.
> >>
> >> Frank did say "abetting mass shootings".
> >> This from Wikipedia:
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
> >> "Gun Violence Archive, frequently cited by the press, defines a mass shooting as firearm violence resulting in at least four people being shot at roughly the same time and location, excluding the perpetrator. Using this definition, there have been 2,128 mass shootings since 2013, roughly one per day."
> >> "The United States has had more mass shootings than any other country."
> >> "Several types of guns have been used in mass shootings in the United States. A 2014 study conducted by Dr. James Fox of 142 shootings found that 88 (62%) were committed with handguns of all types; 68 (48%) with semi-automatic handguns, 20 (14%) with revolvers, 35 (25%) with semi-automatic rifles, and 19 (13%) with shotguns. The study was conducted using the Mother Jones database of mass shootings from 1982 to 2018. High capacity magazines were used in approximately half of mass shootings. Semi-automatic rifles have been used in six of the ten deadliest mass shooting events."
> >>
> >> Key points in the above quotes are (1) "High capacity magazines were used in approximately half of mass shootings." AND (2) "Semi-automatic rifles have been used in six of the ten DEADLIEST mass shooting events."
> >>
> >> The best (worst) mass shooting in the USA was the Las Vegas concert hotel killing in 2017. 60 dead.
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
> >> "Twenty-four firearms, a large quantity of ammunition, and numerous high-capacity magazines capable of holding up to 100 rounds apiece were found in the suite.[142][143] Fourteen of the firearms were .223-caliber AR-15-type semi-automatic rifles..........The others were eight .308-caliber AR-10-type rifles.............Paddock was found to have fired a total of 1,058 rounds from fifteen of the firearms: 1,049 from twelve AR-15-style rifles, eight from two AR-10-style rifles, and the round used to kill himself from the Smith & Wesson revolver."
> >>
> >> Slightly humorous he used the revolver to kill himself.
> >>
> >
> >And then there are definitions of terms.
> >
> >If 'mass shooting' is 'four hit' that's known in Chicago as
> >'Wednesday'. pfft.
> >
> >What's 'high capacity' in a world where 30 rounds is a
> >standard magazine? You might argue that what people like is
> >evil (and that's an argument. I think you're mistaken but
> >you could argue it) but what people actually buy are
> >30-round magazines, both rifle and pistol. They're the
> >700-25PV tube of the firearms industry.
> Well.... it might be noted that in the period from 1949 to 2021 the
> number of mass shooting deaths
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
> was 502 people.

Where did your 502 people number come from? The link you posted, my link from a prior posting, does not have that number on it.

On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 19:14:30 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 8:18:00 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 11:18:45 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>> >On 2/20/2022 3:10 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 12:51:58 AM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> >>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 19:50:25 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
>> >>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 5:23:08 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:05:56 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 2/19/2022 12:16 AM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> And "big Magazines" Oh Horrors!
>> >>>>>>> But of course the Luger pistol had a 30 round magazine way back in WW
>> >>>>>>> I days and several current pistols, the Glock 18 comes standard with a
>> >>>>>>> 20 round capacity and 31 round magazines are available and the Glock
>> >>>>>>> 17 can also be fitted with a 30 round magazine, and the Kel-Tec PMR 30
>> >>>>>>> has a standard capacity of 30 rounds.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> So, apparently semi automatic rifles aren't inherent scary and 30
>> >>>>>>> round magazines aren't scary so why when you combing a small bore semi
>> >>>>>>> automatic rifle with a 30 round magazine does it become such a
>> >>>>>>> fearsome weapon.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I might comment that a full length magazines for a 12 gauge shotguns
>> >>>>>>> are available. In fact the "Century Arms Catamount Fury II" is a 12
>> >>>>>>> gauge shotgun that comes standard with a 30 round magazine, and I'm
>> >>>>>>> pretty sure that 30 rounds of 12 gauge buckshot is are more lethal
>> >>>>>>> then 30 rounds of .22 bullets.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Your argument does not prove high capacity magazines are perfectly fine.
>> >>>>>> I'd say it indicates the need for laws against high capacity magazines
>> >>>>>> on any firearm.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Advantages vs. disadvantages, John! A disadvantage of a high capacity
>> >>>>>> magazine is that it enables mass shootings and rapid fire gun battles,
>> >>>>>> including between gang members and against cops.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> What are the advantages of high capacity magazines for non-criminal gun
>> >>>>>> users? Do hunters really need to put more than (say) ten bullets into a
>> >>>>>> rabbit or deer? Do target shooters really need fewer pauses to reload?
>> >>>>> And you know all this? How?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Are you an experienced target shooter? I am, USAF Rifle and Pistol
>> >>>>> Teams, both Base and Major command. In later years I did considerable
>> >>>>> Trap Shooting, and participated in many Trap Shooting computations (In
>> >>>>> Ohio too).
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> You are an experienced hunter? I am, I've owned a rifle since I was 12
>> >>>>> years old and hunted critters ranging from rabbets to Moose.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> In addition I worked as a gun smith for a number of years and as a
>> >>>>> result came in contact with a very large number of "shooters".
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I don't doubt that you've done what you say. Therefore, you should be able to answer my question!
>> >>>> What are the great advantages of 30 round magazines? Who needs them? Why?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> (Besides people in combat or pretend combat, that is.)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The disadvantages seem obvious: abetting mass shootings. What are the real advantages?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Your answer?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> - Frank Krygowski
>> >>> Well, I guess the most obvious answer is "because someone wants one".
>> >>> Rather like the answer "why does someone want a plastic bicycle?" Or
>> >>> Why does one want a bicycle at all?"
>> >>>
>> >>> You argue that "big magazines abetting mass shootings" and yet
>> >>> statistics don't seem to justify that statement.
>> >>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/476409/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-weapon-types-used/
>> >>> Rifles were used in 26% of the shootings and pistols in 61%
>> >>> So shouldn't you be crying about pistols.
>> >>>
>> >>> Or FBI data which shows that in 2019 pistols were used in 62% of all
>> >>> shooting homicides.
>> >>> In fact the same statistics show that only 3% of shooting homicides
>> >>> were carried out with rifles which might, or might not, have large
>> >>> magazines.
>> >>>
>> >>> As I said, you are becoming a Crotchety Old Man and rather then argue
>> >>> facts you continue with these "delusions" - there is no other name for
>> >>> them - just as Tom does.
>> >>> --
>> >>> Cheers,
>> >>>
>> >>> John B.
>> >>
>> >> Frank did say "abetting mass shootings".
>> >> This from Wikipedia:
>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>> >> "Gun Violence Archive, frequently cited by the press, defines a mass shooting as firearm violence resulting in at least four people being shot at roughly the same time and location, excluding the perpetrator. Using this definition, there have been 2,128 mass shootings since 2013, roughly one per day."
>> >> "The United States has had more mass shootings than any other country."
>> >> "Several types of guns have been used in mass shootings in the United States. A 2014 study conducted by Dr. James Fox of 142 shootings found that 88 (62%) were committed with handguns of all types; 68 (48%) with semi-automatic handguns, 20 (14%) with revolvers, 35 (25%) with semi-automatic rifles, and 19 (13%) with shotguns. The study was conducted using the Mother Jones database of mass shootings from 1982 to 2018. High capacity magazines were used in approximately half of mass shootings. Semi-automatic rifles have been used in six of the ten deadliest mass shooting events."
>> >>
>> >> Key points in the above quotes are (1) "High capacity magazines were used in approximately half of mass shootings." AND (2) "Semi-automatic rifles have been used in six of the ten DEADLIEST mass shooting events."
>> >>
>> >> The best (worst) mass shooting in the USA was the Las Vegas concert hotel killing in 2017. 60 dead.
>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
>> >> "Twenty-four firearms, a large quantity of ammunition, and numerous high-capacity magazines capable of holding up to 100 rounds apiece were found in the suite.[142][143] Fourteen of the firearms were .223-caliber AR-15-type semi-automatic rifles..........The others were eight .308-caliber AR-10-type rifles.............Paddock was found to have fired a total of 1,058 rounds from fifteen of the firearms: 1,049 from twelve AR-15-style rifles, eight from two AR-10-style rifles, and the round used to kill himself from the Smith & Wesson revolver."
>> >>
>> >> Slightly humorous he used the revolver to kill himself.
>> >>
>> >
>> >And then there are definitions of terms.
>> >
>> >If 'mass shooting' is 'four hit' that's known in Chicago as
>> >'Wednesday'. pfft.
>> >
>> >What's 'high capacity' in a world where 30 rounds is a
>> >standard magazine? You might argue that what people like is
>> >evil (and that's an argument. I think you're mistaken but
>> >you could argue it) but what people actually buy are
>> >30-round magazines, both rifle and pistol. They're the
>> >700-25PV tube of the firearms industry.
>> Well.... it might be noted that in the period from 1949 to 2021 the
>> number of mass shooting deaths
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>> was 502 people.
>
>Where did your 502 people number come from? The link you posted, my link from a prior posting, does not have that number on it.
>
>Below is in the opening paragraph of the Wikipedia link to mass killings. Link above.
>"in which a shooter kills at least four victims. Using this definition, one study found that nearly one-third of the world's public mass shootings between 1966 and 2012 (90 of 292 incidents) occurred in the United States.[5][6] Using a similar definition, The Washington Post records 163 mass shootings in the United States between 1967 and June 2019."
>
>4 x 90 = 360 MINIMUM killed in mass killings in the USA between 1966-2012. Less than 502 you cite, but does not include the Las Vegas killing in 2017 or the Orlando night club killing in 2016 or the Texas church shooting in 2017 or the Texas Walmart shooting in 2019 or the Florida high school in 2018. And a few more recent ones too. So I would conclude your 502 number is wrong.
>
>163 x 4 = 652 More than the 502 number you cite. And of course this does not accurately portray all of the people above 4 killed at the numerous mass shootings. Las Vegas killed 60, not 4. Orlando killed 49, not 4. Virginia Tech killed 32, not 4.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> In 1949 alone there were
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclist_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year
>> 550 bicycle deaths.
>> And, by 2018 there had been 49,953 more deaths.
>>
>> And before anyone argues that Oh, my goodness there are so many
>> cyclists let me add that
>>
>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/249740/percentage-of-households-in-the-united-states-owning-a-firearm/
>> 42% if families have access to firearms and
>>
>> there are some128.45 (million) families
>> https://financesonline.com/number-of-us-households/
>> and
>> there seem to be abut 2.6 persons to each family
>> https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/HSD410219
>> so 128.45 x ,42 = 53.949 x 2.6 = 140.267 million
>> with access to guns,
>>
>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/191204/participants-in-bicycling-in-the-us-since-2006/
>> says that there are some 53.73 million cyclists.
>>
>> So 53.73 million contribute 50,000 deaths while 140.267 million
>> contribute 502.
>>
>> Oh.... ain't them there mass shootings terrifying!
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>John, your cyclist deaths to mass murder deaths comparison has many faults.
>
>Most, not all of course, of the cyclist deaths were ACCIDENTS. Not exactly INTENTIONAL. Now I am well aware many motorists intentionally run over and kill cyclists. And the courts still let them go free. But supposedly the cyclist deaths are accidents. How many of the gun deaths, or mass killings, are accidents? Did the Las Vegas guy in 2017 accidentally have 30 guns, many with the machine gun bump stocks in his room. Did he accidentally fire over 1000 rounds into the concert crowd across the street? Did he accidentally kill 60 people?
>
Yes, of course. But basically dead is dead. One is not more dead if
shot or less dead if in a bicycle crash.

On 2/21/2022 12:42 AM, John B. wrote:
>
>
> People do tend to rationalize, or make excuses, for, things which they
> prefer not to believe, or to accept.

That's true. I've read posts from a guy who implies that a murder is no
worse than a death by natural causes or by accidental causes. He uses
that to make excuses for mass murders and other killings by gun users.

That's an astonishing rationalization, a view universally rejected by
society, but its a foundation of his arguments.

Personally, I believe his tone would change if his wife or kid were
murdered.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 6:19:11 PM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 11:10:14 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 12:39:02 AM UTC-8, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > On 2/18/2022 9:03 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Disregarding the ".22 caliber", my own choice would be a 12 gauge
> > > > > shotgun, either pump or automatic and probably loaded with "buck shot"
> > > > > as I believe that I can injure, incapacitate, whatever, more people
> > > > > per round fired then is possible with an AR-whatever.
> > > > And I agree. A shotgun is much more logical than an AR for home defense
> > > > - not that I need either for that purpose.
> > > >
> > > > But shotguns don't make a guy feel like Rambo.
> > > > --
> > > > - Frank Krygowski
> > > The Remington 870 pump shotgun ONLY allows a maximum of about 9 shells on a special model. 5 or 6 shells on most pump shotguns. Rambo would have had to spend half the movie reloading his shotgun instead of killing an endless line of people. If he was using a shotgun. And if you only have 5 or 6 shells in your pump shotgun, how are you going to kill the 7th killer breaking into your house to kill you? With an AR-15 you can get 20 or 30 round magazines. And everyone knows its far far far far far more likely that 7 people will come to kill you than it is for 21 or 31 people to come kill you..
> > https://www.kygunco.com/product/typhoon-defense-f121301s-f12-12ga-ceracamo-w-long-forend
> >
> > That is a 10 round clip fed 12 gauge with an open bore to fire .00 buckshot. The clips may be changed in seconds. Why don't you tell us all about your view of Rambo?
> Tommy, I do wonder if you have reading comprehension problems. In my post I wrote "The Remington 870 pump shotgun". Your website is not a Remington 870 pump shotgun.

Why did you chose that specific shotgun? Because you could use it as some sort of support for your ill mind. Sorry Russell, you imagination doesn't hold up to reality but then that is exactly what you are.

On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 6:06:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/20/2022 2:03 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 2/20/2022 11:11 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 2/20/2022 11:41 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 2/19/2022 6:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 2/19/2022 1:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>> On 2/19/2022 11:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> On 2/18/2022 9:03 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Disregarding the ".22 caliber", my own choice would be a
> >>>>>>> 12 gauge
> >>>>>>> shotgun, either pump or automatic and probably loaded
> >>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>> "buck shot"
> >>>>>>> as I believe that I can injure, incapacitate, whatever,
> >>>>>>> more people
> >>>>>>> per round fired then is possible with an AR-whatever.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And I agree. A shotgun is much more logical than an AR for
> >>>>>> home defense - not that I need either for that purpose.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But shotguns don't make a guy feel like Rambo.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> How do you know what other men feel?
> >>>>
> >>>> I talk to them, Andrew. I have friends who have invited me
> >>>> to machine gun shoots, who bragged about doing things there
> >>>> like blowing up junk cars and refrigerators. I have a
> >>>> non-gun-nut friend who talked about how shooting an AR
> >>>> "really makes you feel cool."
> >>>>
> >>>> What's this pot-bellied dude
> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW1LZKJmtbw
> >>>> doing at 0:50 to 0:55 and 3:10 to 3:16 if not playing Rambo?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Oh, full auto. I thought we were discussing AR-15.
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3gf_5MR4tE
> >>
> >> Unassisted. And how charming that he's choosing human
> >> silhouettes!
> >>
> >
> > Really? Standard target shapes trigger you?
> > Perhaps undead humans be better?
> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rangnat.jpg
> Let's review. I said that whatever their other uses, AR rifles are
> optimized for combat; that was the essence of the design. And AR guys
> play at being Rambo. They imagine themselves in combat. I gave examples
> of guys I know well, and I linked a video of an out of shape middle aged
> guy doing precisely that. The use of a human silhouette confirms the
> mentality.
>
> You implied it didn't count because he was on full auto.
>
> But some guys can shoot very fast without full auto. They can fit bump
> stocks, or just spend hours developing a really fast finger. Pot bellied
> Rambos can feel good about themselves as long as their gun looks tough
> and they can pretend to be blasting bad guys.

What is sold as an AR15 to the public are not actually the militarized guns so why do you keep insisting they are? Is your position that lying about something is acceptable to maintain your position?

On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 9:40:11 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 6:19:11 PM UTC-8, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 11:10:14 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 12:39:02 AM UTC-8, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > On 2/18/2022 9:03 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Disregarding the ".22 caliber", my own choice would be a 12 gauge
> > > > > > shotgun, either pump or automatic and probably loaded with "buck shot"
> > > > > > as I believe that I can injure, incapacitate, whatever, more people
> > > > > > per round fired then is possible with an AR-whatever.
> > > > > And I agree. A shotgun is much more logical than an AR for home defense
> > > > > - not that I need either for that purpose.
> > > > >
> > > > > But shotguns don't make a guy feel like Rambo.
> > > > > --
> > > > > - Frank Krygowski
> > > > The Remington 870 pump shotgun ONLY allows a maximum of about 9 shells on a special model. 5 or 6 shells on most pump shotguns. Rambo would have had to spend half the movie reloading his shotgun instead of killing an endless line of people. If he was using a shotgun. And if you only have 5 or 6 shells in your pump shotgun, how are you going to kill the 7th killer breaking into your house to kill you? With an AR-15 you can get 20 or 30 round magazines. And everyone knows its far far far far far more likely that 7 people will come to kill you than it is for 21 or 31 people to come kill you.
> > > https://www.kygunco.com/product/typhoon-defense-f121301s-f12-12ga-ceracamo-w-long-forend
> > >
> > > That is a 10 round clip fed 12 gauge with an open bore to fire .00 buckshot. The clips may be changed in seconds. Why don't you tell us all about your view of Rambo?
> > Tommy, I do wonder if you have reading comprehension problems. In my post I wrote "The Remington 870 pump shotgun". Your website is not a Remington 870 pump shotgun.
> Why did you chose that specific shotgun? Because you could use it as some sort of support for your ill mind. Sorry Russell, you imagination doesn't hold up to reality but then that is exactly what you are.

Tommy boy, you ask why I chose the Remington 870 pump shotgun for my example. Very easy Tommy boy. The Remington 870 is the most widely sold shotgun in the USA. Probably the entire world. It is the "Coke" of shotguns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Model_870
"The 870 was a commercial success. Remington sold two million guns by 1973 (ten times the number of Model 31 shotguns it replaced). As of 1983, the 870 held the record for the best-selling shotgun in history, with three million sold. By 1996, spurred by sales of the basic "Express" models, which were added as a lower-cost alternative to the original Wingmaster line, sales topped seven million guns. On April 13, 2009, the ten millionth Model 870 was produced."

The ten millionth Remington 870 was sold in 2009. Its now 13 years later. We may be up to 15 or 20 million Remington 870 shotguns sold today. The 870 is the best selling, most prolific shotgun ever sold in the history of the world. Therefore, people, me, mention it when discussing shotguns. Kind of like mentioning the Ford pickup when talking about pickups. Its been the highest selling pickup every year for about 50 years now.

Tommy, you really need to seek out a mental health professional. Now obviously they will not be as genius as you. According to you. But you do need to let them try to help you solve your mental thinking problems.

On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 9:48:20 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 6:06:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 2/20/2022 2:03 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 2/20/2022 11:11 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >> On 2/20/2022 11:41 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>> On 2/19/2022 6:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>> On 2/19/2022 1:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>> On 2/19/2022 11:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>>>> On 2/18/2022 9:03 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Disregarding the ".22 caliber", my own choice would be a
> > >>>>>>> 12 gauge
> > >>>>>>> shotgun, either pump or automatic and probably loaded
> > >>>>>>> with
> > >>>>>>> "buck shot"
> > >>>>>>> as I believe that I can injure, incapacitate, whatever,
> > >>>>>>> more people
> > >>>>>>> per round fired then is possible with an AR-whatever.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> And I agree. A shotgun is much more logical than an AR for
> > >>>>>> home defense - not that I need either for that purpose.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> But shotguns don't make a guy feel like Rambo.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> How do you know what other men feel?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I talk to them, Andrew. I have friends who have invited me
> > >>>> to machine gun shoots, who bragged about doing things there
> > >>>> like blowing up junk cars and refrigerators. I have a
> > >>>> non-gun-nut friend who talked about how shooting an AR
> > >>>> "really makes you feel cool."
> > >>>>
> > >>>> What's this pot-bellied dude
> > >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW1LZKJmtbw
> > >>>> doing at 0:50 to 0:55 and 3:10 to 3:16 if not playing Rambo?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Oh, full auto. I thought we were discussing AR-15.
> > >>
> > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3gf_5MR4tE
> > >>
> > >> Unassisted. And how charming that he's choosing human
> > >> silhouettes!
> > >>
> > >
> > > Really? Standard target shapes trigger you?
> > > Perhaps undead humans be better?
> > > http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rangnat.jpg
> > Let's review. I said that whatever their other uses, AR rifles are
> > optimized for combat; that was the essence of the design. And AR guys
> > play at being Rambo. They imagine themselves in combat. I gave examples
> > of guys I know well, and I linked a video of an out of shape middle aged
> > guy doing precisely that. The use of a human silhouette confirms the
> > mentality.
> >
> > You implied it didn't count because he was on full auto.
> >
> > But some guys can shoot very fast without full auto. They can fit bump
> > stocks, or just spend hours developing a really fast finger. Pot bellied
> > Rambos can feel good about themselves as long as their gun looks tough
> > and they can pretend to be blasting bad guys.
> What is sold as an AR15 to the public are not actually the militarized guns so why do you keep insisting they are? Is your position that lying about something is acceptable to maintain your position?

Correct. And no one on this forum has said they are the exact same gun. But everyone who has an education, also knows the AR-15 was developed during the 1950s as a military gun. And it was later adopted as the M-16 rifle by the USA military. And many other countries around the world use it too. And to capitalize on that military contract and success, many companies have since sold a civilian version of the AR-15 to the public. And done very well monetarily. Just like every gun manufacturer makes a Colt model 1911 pistol. Just like the original military version adopted back around WW1. Money to be made with the connection to the military. And remember the Humvee? Made by AM General. They also made a civilian model of the Humvee. And later called it the Hummer. It was not the same as the military Humvees. They looked the same. But had different motors and transmissions and axles and driveshafts and interiors. They were in reality 99% different than what the military used. But everyone could still say they had a military Humvee truck. Just like the Army Commandos used. Grunt grunt.

On 2/21/2022 3:29 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 9:48:20 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 6:06:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 2/20/2022 2:03 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 2/20/2022 11:11 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 2/20/2022 11:41 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/19/2022 6:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2/19/2022 1:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2/19/2022 11:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2/18/2022 9:03 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Disregarding the ".22 caliber", my own choice would be a
>>>>>>>>>> 12 gauge
>>>>>>>>>> shotgun, either pump or automatic and probably loaded
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> "buck shot"
>>>>>>>>>> as I believe that I can injure, incapacitate, whatever,
>>>>>>>>>> more people
>>>>>>>>>> per round fired then is possible with an AR-whatever.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And I agree. A shotgun is much more logical than an AR for
>>>>>>>>> home defense - not that I need either for that purpose.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But shotguns don't make a guy feel like Rambo.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How do you know what other men feel?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I talk to them, Andrew. I have friends who have invited me
>>>>>>> to machine gun shoots, who bragged about doing things there
>>>>>>> like blowing up junk cars and refrigerators. I have a
>>>>>>> non-gun-nut friend who talked about how shooting an AR
>>>>>>> "really makes you feel cool."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What's this pot-bellied dude
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW1LZKJmtbw
>>>>>>> doing at 0:50 to 0:55 and 3:10 to 3:16 if not playing Rambo?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, full auto. I thought we were discussing AR-15.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3gf_5MR4tE
>>>>>
>>>>> Unassisted. And how charming that he's choosing human
>>>>> silhouettes!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Really? Standard target shapes trigger you?
>>>> Perhaps undead humans be better?
>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rangnat.jpg
>>> Let's review. I said that whatever their other uses, AR rifles are
>>> optimized for combat; that was the essence of the design. And AR guys
>>> play at being Rambo. They imagine themselves in combat. I gave examples
>>> of guys I know well, and I linked a video of an out of shape middle aged
>>> guy doing precisely that. The use of a human silhouette confirms the
>>> mentality.
>>>
>>> You implied it didn't count because he was on full auto.
>>>
>>> But some guys can shoot very fast without full auto. They can fit bump
>>> stocks, or just spend hours developing a really fast finger. Pot bellied
>>> Rambos can feel good about themselves as long as their gun looks tough
>>> and they can pretend to be blasting bad guys.
>> What is sold as an AR15 to the public are not actually the militarized guns so why do you keep insisting they are? Is your position that lying about something is acceptable to maintain your position?
>
> Correct. And no one on this forum has said they are the exact same gun. But everyone who has an education, also knows the AR-15 was developed during the 1950s as a military gun. And it was later adopted as the M-16 rifle by the USA military. And many other countries around the world use it too. And to capitalize on that military contract and success, many companies have since sold a civilian version of the AR-15 to the public. And done very well monetarily. Just like every gun manufacturer makes a Colt model 1911 pistol. Just like the original military version adopted back around WW1. Money to be made with the connection to the military. And remember the Humvee? Made by AM General. They also made a civilian model of the Humvee. And later called it the Hummer. It was not the same as the military Humvees. They looked the same. But had different motors and transmissions and axles and driveshafts and interiors. They were in reality 99% different than what the military
used. But everyone could still say they had a military Humvee truck. Just like the Army Commandos used. Grunt grunt.
>

Same with other popular platforms.

The iconic AK-47 in its many and varied civilian models
(also, as you note, made by just everyone) are semi, not
full auto. The much better designed AK-74 and AR-10 clones
are also semi for civilian models. Even the space-age NATO
FN 5.7 has a civilian analog PS-90 in semi. Which are
significant differences and well reflected in the disparate
volumes of popular 'civilian' vs the rare NFA-licensed full
auto versions.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 10:30:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/21/2022 12:42 AM, John B. wrote:
>>
>>
>> People do tend to rationalize, or make excuses, for, things which they
>> prefer not to believe, or to accept.
>
>That's true. I've read posts from a guy who implies that a murder is no
>worse than a death by natural causes or by accidental causes. He uses
>that to make excuses for mass murders and other killings by gun users.
>
>That's an astonishing rationalization, a view universally rejected by
>society, but its a foundation of his arguments.
>
>Personally, I believe his tone would change if his wife or kid were
>murdered.

I assume that you are referring to my recent post in which I said that
dead was dead and one is "no more dead if shot by a gun or less dad if
killed in a bicycle crash".

So tell us Frank, or even better, give us some actual proof, that
someone shot by a gun is somehow more dead then if killed in a bicycle
cash.

Or perhaps you would argue that if killed by a gun you would grieve
more then if killed on a bicycle? Which certainly defines you as a
person I would not care to be associated.

I can imagine Frank prancing down the road laughing and joking, "Ha!
Ha! Oh yes my wife died in a bike crash! How Lucky I am!"

Frank, you ARE despicable!
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 1:16:25 PM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 9:40:11 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 6:19:11 PM UTC-8, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 11:10:14 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 12:39:02 AM UTC-8, russell...@yahoo..com wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > > On 2/18/2022 9:03 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Disregarding the ".22 caliber", my own choice would be a 12 gauge
> > > > > > > shotgun, either pump or automatic and probably loaded with "buck shot"
> > > > > > > as I believe that I can injure, incapacitate, whatever, more people
> > > > > > > per round fired then is possible with an AR-whatever.
> > > > > > And I agree. A shotgun is much more logical than an AR for home defense
> > > > > > - not that I need either for that purpose.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But shotguns don't make a guy feel like Rambo.
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > - Frank Krygowski
> > > > > The Remington 870 pump shotgun ONLY allows a maximum of about 9 shells on a special model. 5 or 6 shells on most pump shotguns. Rambo would have had to spend half the movie reloading his shotgun instead of killing an endless line of people. If he was using a shotgun. And if you only have 5 or 6 shells in your pump shotgun, how are you going to kill the 7th killer breaking into your house to kill you? With an AR-15 you can get 20 or 30 round magazines. And everyone knows its far far far far far more likely that 7 people will come to kill you than it is for 21 or 31 people to come kill you.
> > > > https://www.kygunco.com/product/typhoon-defense-f121301s-f12-12ga-ceracamo-w-long-forend
> > > >
> > > > That is a 10 round clip fed 12 gauge with an open bore to fire .00 buckshot. The clips may be changed in seconds. Why don't you tell us all about your view of Rambo?
> > > Tommy, I do wonder if you have reading comprehension problems. In my post I wrote "The Remington 870 pump shotgun". Your website is not a Remington 870 pump shotgun.
> > Why did you chose that specific shotgun? Because you could use it as some sort of support for your ill mind. Sorry Russell, you imagination doesn't hold up to reality but then that is exactly what you are.
> Tommy boy, you ask why I chose the Remington 870 pump shotgun for my example. Very easy Tommy boy. The Remington 870 is the most widely sold shotgun in the USA. Probably the entire world. It is the "Coke" of shotguns.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Model_870
> "The 870 was a commercial success. Remington sold two million guns by 1973 (ten times the number of Model 31 shotguns it replaced). As of 1983, the 870 held the record for the best-selling shotgun in history, with three million sold. By 1996, spurred by sales of the basic "Express" models, which were added as a lower-cost alternative to the original Wingmaster line, sales topped seven million guns. On April 13, 2009, the ten millionth Model 870 was produced."
>
> The ten millionth Remington 870 was sold in 2009. Its now 13 years later. We may be up to 15 or 20 million Remington 870 shotguns sold today. The 870 is the best selling, most prolific shotgun ever sold in the history of the world. Therefore, people, me, mention it when discussing shotguns. Kind of like mentioning the Ford pickup when talking about pickups. Its been the highest selling pickup every year for about 50 years now.
>
> Tommy, you really need to seek out a mental health professional. Now obviously they will not be as genius as you. According to you. But you do need to let them try to help you solve your mental thinking problems.
Sorry little Russy, you chose it because you wanted a visual image of people loading a 12 gauge one round at a time when that isn't what they do anymore for military weapons. You wanted to pretend that the 870 was used by the military. Again, the man that knows absolutely nothing about guns loves to talk about them. You and Frank have a whole lot in common. You'd piss your panties if someone was holding a gun at a gun range but you'll talk fake news about them all day.

On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:29:59 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 9:48:20 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 6:06:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > On 2/20/2022 2:03 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> > > On 2/20/2022 11:11 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > >> On 2/20/2022 11:41 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> > >>> On 2/19/2022 6:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > >>>> On 2/19/2022 1:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> > >>>>> On 2/19/2022 11:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > >>>>>> On 2/18/2022 9:03 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> Disregarding the ".22 caliber", my own choice would be a
>> > >>>>>>> 12 gauge
>> > >>>>>>> shotgun, either pump or automatic and probably loaded
>> > >>>>>>> with
>> > >>>>>>> "buck shot"
>> > >>>>>>> as I believe that I can injure, incapacitate, whatever,
>> > >>>>>>> more people
>> > >>>>>>> per round fired then is possible with an AR-whatever.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> And I agree. A shotgun is much more logical than an AR for
>> > >>>>>> home defense - not that I need either for that purpose.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> But shotguns don't make a guy feel like Rambo.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> How do you know what other men feel?
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> I talk to them, Andrew. I have friends who have invited me
>> > >>>> to machine gun shoots, who bragged about doing things there
>> > >>>> like blowing up junk cars and refrigerators. I have a
>> > >>>> non-gun-nut friend who talked about how shooting an AR
>> > >>>> "really makes you feel cool."
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> What's this pot-bellied dude
>> > >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW1LZKJmtbw
>> > >>>> doing at 0:50 to 0:55 and 3:10 to 3:16 if not playing Rambo?
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Oh, full auto. I thought we were discussing AR-15.
>> > >>
>> > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3gf_5MR4tE
>> > >>
>> > >> Unassisted. And how charming that he's choosing human
>> > >> silhouettes!
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > > Really? Standard target shapes trigger you?
>> > > Perhaps undead humans be better?
>> > > http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rangnat.jpg
>> > Let's review. I said that whatever their other uses, AR rifles are
>> > optimized for combat; that was the essence of the design. And AR guys
>> > play at being Rambo. They imagine themselves in combat. I gave examples
>> > of guys I know well, and I linked a video of an out of shape middle aged
>> > guy doing precisely that. The use of a human silhouette confirms the
>> > mentality.
>> >
>> > You implied it didn't count because he was on full auto.
>> >
>> > But some guys can shoot very fast without full auto. They can fit bump
>> > stocks, or just spend hours developing a really fast finger. Pot bellied
>> > Rambos can feel good about themselves as long as their gun looks tough
>> > and they can pretend to be blasting bad guys.
>> What is sold as an AR15 to the public are not actually the militarized guns so why do you keep insisting they are? Is your position that lying about something is acceptable to maintain your position?
>
>Correct. And no one on this forum has said they are the exact same gun. But everyone who has an education, also knows the AR-15 was developed during the 1950s as a military gun. And it was later adopted as the M-16 rifle by the USA military. And many other countries around the world use it too. And to capitalize on that military contract and success, many companies have since sold a civilian version of the AR-15 to the public. And done very well monetarily. Just like every gun manufacturer makes a Colt model 1911 pistol. Just like the original military version adopted back around WW1. Money to be made with the connection to the military. And remember the Humvee? Made by AM General. They also made a civilian model of the Humvee. And later called it the Hummer. It was not the same as the military Humvees. They looked the same. But had different motors and transmissions and axles and driveshafts and interiors. They were in reality 99% different than what the military
>used. But everyone could still say they had a military Humvee truck. Just like the Army Commandos used. Grunt grunt.

I think I would have to argue a bit about your (apparent) assumption
that some firearms are accepted largely because they are associated
with the military.

The Colt 1911, for example is, or was, the only large caliber,
automatic, well semi-automatic to be exact, pistol available for years
and years. So if one wanted an "automatic", large bore pistol, there
was only one choice. NRA pistol shooting was for .22, Any center fire,
and .45, pistols only and yes you could shoot a .45 caliber revolver -
I had a shooting buddy that did - but with the handicap of having to
thumb cock the gun for every shot.

As for long guns, the NRA sold the 1903 Springfield rifle for some
unimaginably small sum but I don't remember people marching about with
the military version. The action and barrel used for the basis of a
"civilian" gun, yes, but not the full stock with sling, military
version.

But, perhaps it is some sort of desire to be a "Soldier". I read that
18% of U.S. adults were in, or were veterans, in 1980, while today the
number is less then 1%.

Perhaps, possibly, not having actually served, there is some sort of
childish desire, in U.S. males, to "Be a Soldier". One could, of
course, enlist and actually BE a solder but then one would likely have
to travel to some strange and foreign land to be shot at. No! Far
better to play solder???

This, of course, is Frank's assertion, that American Males want to
play solder, and Andrew tells us that some 20 million - about 14% of
the U.S. male population over 10 years old - have AR type rifles. Can
it be?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 2/21/2022 4:29 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 9:48:20 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> What is sold as an AR15 to the public are not actually the militarized guns so why do you keep insisting they are? Is your position that lying about something is acceptable to maintain your position?
>
> Correct. And no one on this forum has said they are the exact same gun. But everyone who has an education, also knows the AR-15 was developed during the 1950s as a military gun. And it was later adopted as the M-16 rifle by the USA military. And many other countries around the world use it too. And to capitalize on that military contract and success, many companies have since sold a civilian version of the AR-15 to the public. And done very well monetarily. Just like every gun manufacturer makes a Colt model 1911 pistol. Just like the original military version adopted back around WW1. Money to be made with the connection to the military. And remember the Humvee? Made by AM General. They also made a civilian model of the Humvee. And later called it the Hummer. It was not the same as the military Humvees. They looked the same. But had different motors and transmissions and axles and driveshafts and interiors. They were in reality 99% different than what the military used. But everyone could still say they had a military Humvee truck. Just like the Army Commandos used. Grunt grunt.
So macho! So impressive! They make fragile guys feel so tough! :-)
--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/21/2022 8:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> But, perhaps it is some sort of desire to be a "Soldier". I read that
> 18% of U.S. adults were in, or were veterans, in 1980, while today the
> number is less then 1%.
>
> Perhaps, possibly, not having actually served, there is some sort of
> childish desire, in U.S. males, to "Be a Soldier". One could, of
> course, enlist and actually BE a solder but then one would likely have
> to travel to some strange and foreign land to be shot at. No! Far
> better to play solder???
>
> This, of course, is Frank's assertion, that American Males want to
> play solder...

Or pretend they are as tough as a soldier. Or that they could have been
really effective as a soldier. Or that they can still react as well as a
trained soldier if "other people" suddenly mount an attack on their
little suburban castle.

It's funny that my family members and close friends who actually
enlisted or were drafted, and _especially_ the ones who actually saw
combat, have absolutely no interest in combat-style rifles, even if they
do shoot targets and hunt.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/21/2022 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:29:59 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 9:48:20 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 6:06:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 2/20/2022 2:03 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 2/20/2022 11:11 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/20/2022 11:41 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2/19/2022 6:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2/19/2022 1:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2/19/2022 11:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/18/2022 9:03 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Disregarding the ".22 caliber", my own choice would be a
>>>>>>>>>>> 12 gauge
>>>>>>>>>>> shotgun, either pump or automatic and probably loaded
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> "buck shot"
>>>>>>>>>>> as I believe that I can injure, incapacitate, whatever,
>>>>>>>>>>> more people
>>>>>>>>>>> per round fired then is possible with an AR-whatever.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And I agree. A shotgun is much more logical than an AR for
>>>>>>>>>> home defense - not that I need either for that purpose.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But shotguns don't make a guy feel like Rambo.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How do you know what other men feel?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I talk to them, Andrew. I have friends who have invited me
>>>>>>>> to machine gun shoots, who bragged about doing things there
>>>>>>>> like blowing up junk cars and refrigerators. I have a
>>>>>>>> non-gun-nut friend who talked about how shooting an AR
>>>>>>>> "really makes you feel cool."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What's this pot-bellied dude
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW1LZKJmtbw
>>>>>>>> doing at 0:50 to 0:55 and 3:10 to 3:16 if not playing Rambo?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh, full auto. I thought we were discussing AR-15.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3gf_5MR4tE
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unassisted. And how charming that he's choosing human
>>>>>> silhouettes!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Really? Standard target shapes trigger you?
>>>>> Perhaps undead humans be better?
>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rangnat.jpg
>>>> Let's review. I said that whatever their other uses, AR rifles are
>>>> optimized for combat; that was the essence of the design. And AR guys
>>>> play at being Rambo. They imagine themselves in combat. I gave examples
>>>> of guys I know well, and I linked a video of an out of shape middle aged
>>>> guy doing precisely that. The use of a human silhouette confirms the
>>>> mentality.
>>>>
>>>> You implied it didn't count because he was on full auto.
>>>>
>>>> But some guys can shoot very fast without full auto. They can fit bump
>>>> stocks, or just spend hours developing a really fast finger. Pot bellied
>>>> Rambos can feel good about themselves as long as their gun looks tough
>>>> and they can pretend to be blasting bad guys.
>>> What is sold as an AR15 to the public are not actually the militarized guns so why do you keep insisting they are? Is your position that lying about something is acceptable to maintain your position?
>>
>> Correct. And no one on this forum has said they are the exact same gun. But everyone who has an education, also knows the AR-15 was developed during the 1950s as a military gun. And it was later adopted as the M-16 rifle by the USA military. And many other countries around the world use it too. And to capitalize on that military contract and success, many companies have since sold a civilian version of the AR-15 to the public. And done very well monetarily. Just like every gun manufacturer makes a Colt model 1911 pistol. Just like the original military version adopted back around WW1. Money to be made with the connection to the military. And remember the Humvee? Made by AM General. They also made a civilian model of the Humvee. And later called it the Hummer. It was not the same as the military Humvees. They looked the same. But had different motors and transmissions and axles and driveshafts and interiors. They were in reality 99% different than what the militar
y >> used. But everyone could still say they had a military Humvee truck. Just like the Army Commandos used. Grunt grunt.
>
> I think I would have to argue a bit about your (apparent) assumption
> that some firearms are accepted largely because they are associated
> with the military.
>
> The Colt 1911, for example is, or was, the only large caliber,
> automatic, well semi-automatic to be exact, pistol available for years
> and years. So if one wanted an "automatic", large bore pistol, there
> was only one choice. NRA pistol shooting was for .22, Any center fire,
> and .45, pistols only and yes you could shoot a .45 caliber revolver -
> I had a shooting buddy that did - but with the handicap of having to
> thumb cock the gun for every shot.
>
> As for long guns, the NRA sold the 1903 Springfield rifle for some
> unimaginably small sum but I don't remember people marching about with
> the military version. The action and barrel used for the basis of a
> "civilian" gun, yes, but not the full stock with sling, military
> version.
>
> But, perhaps it is some sort of desire to be a "Soldier". I read that
> 18% of U.S. adults were in, or were veterans, in 1980, while today the
> number is less then 1%.
>
> Perhaps, possibly, not having actually served, there is some sort of
> childish desire, in U.S. males, to "Be a Soldier". One could, of
> course, enlist and actually BE a solder but then one would likely have
> to travel to some strange and foreign land to be shot at. No! Far
> better to play solder???
>
> This, of course, is Frank's assertion, that American Males want to
> play solder, and Andrew tells us that some 20 million - about 14% of
> the U.S. male population over 10 years old - have AR type rifles. Can
> it be?
>

Uh, the Luger folding link 9mm pistol predates the Browning
M1911A1 by a few years and both are still made.

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/ItemImages/000479/20035050_1_lg.jpeg

I don't know about elsewhere but here in USA the 1911 is
only recently being displaced by smaller lighter 9mm and .40
'compacts' generally striker type

http://www.defensereview.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/CZ_P-10_C_Compact_Striker-Fired_9mm_Combat_Tactical_Pistol_SHOT_Show_2017_David_Crane_DefenseReview.com_DR_3.jpg

And regarding the Springfield 1903 reference I assume you
meant the CMP surplus rifle program:
https://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle-sales/

Currently they're offering WWII surplus M1 Garands.

I see a very wide spectrum of Americans at ranges; fathers
with daughters, pals after work, all ages, incomes and
flavors. What I don't see are guys in fatigues playing soldier.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971