On 3/9/2022 8:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 8:57 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/8/2022 6:06 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:34:26 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>> <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas
>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
>>>>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
>>>>>>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people
>>>>>>> commit crimes
>>>>>>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required)
>>>>>>> weapon. (:-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
>>>>>> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding
>>>>>> of 411 was done
>>>>>> with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
>>>>>> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of
>>>>>> Alcohol, Tobacco,
>>>>>> Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms
>>>>>> found in his
>>>>>> hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes,
>>>>>> had been legally
>>>>>> purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
>>>>>> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a
>>>>>> 9mm handgun at
>>>>>> Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range
>>>>>> in Holly
>>>>>> Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states,
>>>>>> Georgia does not
>>>>>> have a waiting period to buy a gun."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic
>>>>>> rifle and a 9mm
>>>>>> Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from
>>>>>> Mateen's body,
>>>>>> along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally
>>>>>> purchased the two
>>>>>> guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St.
>>>>>> Lucie: the SIG Sauer
>>>>>> MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
>>>>>> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close
>>>>>> legal loopholes
>>>>>> that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally
>>>>>> unsound to
>>>>>> purchase handguns without detection by the National
>>>>>> Instant Criminal
>>>>>> Background Check System (NICS)."
>>>>>> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber
>>>>>> Walther P22
>>>>>> semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock
>>>>>> 19 handgun."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old
>>>>>> Lanza was old
>>>>>> enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun,
>>>>>> but too young
>>>>>> to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been
>>>>>> purchased legally
>>>>>> by his mother."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the
>>>>>> shooting from
>>>>>> an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on
>>>>>> April 7, 2016.
>>>>>> He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely
>>>>>> indicated that he
>>>>>> did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
>>>>>> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So we can agree that laws, no matter how restrictive and
>>>>> punitive to the
>>>>> general population, are not effective against
>>>>> psychopaths, jihadis and
>>>>> the like.
>>>>
>>>> No, we cannot! As mentioned previously in detail, Canada
>>>> doubtlessly has
>>>> a psychopath/jihadi density similar to the U.S. But they
>>>> have far, far
>>>> fewer gun deaths. The same can be said for Britain,
>>>> Ireland, Australia,
>>>> France, Germany, etc. etc.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nope. Wrong again Tommy, err Franky.
>>> https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/16-countries-with-the-highest-mental-illness-rates-in-the-world-649757/?singlepage=1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The U.S. seems to be #3 in the world while Canada isn't even
>>> mentioned.
>>
>> Nice try, John! You had me almost ready to say "OK, you're
>> right." But that went away as soon as I began reading your
>> link.
>>
>> Two points: First, my statement which echoed Andrew's was
>> about "psychopaths" and "jihadis." The link you gave seemed
>> to concentrate on things like simple depression. Those are
>> very different maladies or mental states. Your typical
>> depressed individual can't get motivated to make the bed,
>> let alone acquire arms and commit an act of terrorism.
>>
>> Second, if you think Switzerland, France, Germany etc. are
>> comparable to the U.S. in mental problems, then why don't
>> they have America's gun violence problem?
>>
>> The obvious answer is what I've been saying: The U.S.
>> problem isn't population insanity or some inherent evil in
>> Americans.
>>
>> National policies and laws DO make a big difference. We just
>> have crappy gun laws, and many thousands of lives are ruined
>> each year because of them.
>>
>
> If the laws and policies of the nation were out of step with the values
> of the population generally, they would be changed.

OK. As a first step, a large majority of Americans is in favor of
universal background checks before buying guns. That's true even of NRA
members. Can we start there?

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/views-on-gun-policy/psdt_2017-06-22-guns-05-10/

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/9/2022 10:43 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/9/2022 8:48 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 3/8/2022 8:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi
>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of
>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of
>>>>>>>>> deaths
>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas
>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but
>>>>>>>> upthread
>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern
>>>>>>>> Republican
>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger
>>>>>>>> right wing
>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are
>>>>>>> concentrated
>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the
>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend
>>>>>> to be
>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states
>>>>>> tend
>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last
>>>>>> election of
>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016:
>>>>>> “We won with
>>>>>> poorly
>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>
>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major
>>>>> parties.
>>>>
>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>
>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the
>>>> voters, "Elect me
>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social
>>>> Security,
>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food
>>>> and housing
>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>
>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>
>>
>> There's a difference between 'price' and 'cost'. You pay
>> 55 cents for First Class postage. The _cost_ is something
>> in the $1.50 range.
>>
>> One might say that Medicaid is 'free' but in fact it's
>> eating State budgets in big chunks:
>>
>> https://www.kff.org/medicaid/state-indicator/total-medicaid-spending/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D
>>
>>
>> For California in particular 28% of the entire budget. And
>> growing.
>>
>> Cost of health care in Thailand is not a few bhat per person.
>
> Agreed on all counts.
>
> However, I've seen dozens of evaluations of American health
> care _costs_ vs. those of other countries. Not one that I've
> seen has failed to mark the U.S. system as hugely expensive,
> as well as less effective.
>
> Honestly, I think the arguments in favor of U.S. health care
> policy are far, far weaker than those in favor of U.S. gun
> policy. And that's saying something!
>

Thank you.
For 'health care costs' how would you deal with the
gargantuan regulatory & compliance expenses?

Can't just buy an MRI - you have to pay off the State review
board to get a 'Certificate of Need' first. And you have to
keep paying them so your competitor doesn't buy one in your
'service area'. What could go wrong? My employee who had a
'handlebar into spleen' event was billed $3800 for an MRI.
At DIC Chicago, (not hospital affiliated) it's flat rate $325:
https://radiologyassist.com/facility-locations-rates/locations-by-city/mri/chicago-il-mri/

Oh, and they are a profitable concern, not charity.

Not the only example - the entire industry is like that.

BTW this is why we've lost some 5000 banks in a dozen years.
A State Charter bank with under 10 employees cannot afford
to add a half dozen compliance attorneys. The big banks can.
And did.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/9/2022 11:02 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/9/2022 8:40 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 3/8/2022 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2022 6:17 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:09:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered
>>>>> access to rapid
>>>>> fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person must
>>>>> pull the trigger
>>>>> to shoot someone; but in other nations with more rational
>>>>> policies,
>>>>> people don't shoot people nearly as often.
>>>>>
>>>>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the
>>>>> lack of rapid
>>>>> fire arms. That's because things like ARs have no
>>>>> practical advantages
>>>>> for civilians.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But Frank, as I and Andrew have both told you, and given
>>>> reference,
>>>> rifles, i.e, those terrifying AR type guns, are used in
>>>> murders far
>>>> less often then other type of firearms. Less often, even,
>>>> then hands
>>>> and feet.
>>>>
>>>> But in spite of all evidence to the contrary you continue
>>>> to curse and
>>>> damn the AR type. Dementia? or Lies?
>>>
>>> Neither. First, as noted, the "firearm type undetermined"
>>> category was so large that your claims have little value.
>>> (When someone shoots a person and leaves, it's quite
>>> difficult to determine the length of the barrel. Isn't that
>>> obvious?)
>>>
>>> Second, although you won't admit it, all deaths are not
>>> equal. Society rightly considers mass shootings - like
>>> killing a couple dozen grade school kids - to be
>>> particularly heinous. Mass shootings happen with sickening
>>> regularity in the U.S., certainly far more often than in
>>> comparable developed nations. For the worst mass shootings,
>>> the AR is perhaps the top weapon of choice.
>>>
>>> That counts as a MAJOR societal disadvantage for the AR and
>>> its kin.
>>>
>>> To balance that major disadvantage, the AR offers the
>>> following practical advantages:Â "Dude, it's cool!"Â "It
>>> looks like Rambo's gun!"Â Â "It makes me FEEL like Rambo!"
>>> "I can put 20 rounds into a man-shaped target in ten
>>> seconds!"Â "I can buy all kinds of cool, deadly
>>> accessories!"Â "If Those Other People ever storm my
>>> suburban
>>> bungalow, I can take out a whole crowd of them!"
>>>
>>> Oh, and "Ah LIKE my gun!"
>>>
>>> Guys who want to pretend to be Rambo should join a _real_
>>> militia. The National Guard qualifies.
>>>
>>
>> You project similar fantasies on pickup truck owners as a
>> class and you're mostly wrong in both cases. A few
>> idiots own bicycles. A few idiots own pickup trucks. A few
>> idiots own firearms. But they are (blissfully) not
>> 'everyone' nor widespread.
>
> Please try to remember I don't attribute those motives to
> all pickup drivers. Two of my best friends and one extended
> family member currently own pickups, and need and use them
> for their capabilities. I make no complaints about pickups
> hauling hay bales, or loaded with construction equipment,
> machinery, huge tool boxes etc.
>
> A squeaky clean fashionable 4x4 used to haul a
> testosterone-deficient suburban guy to his insurance company
> desk job does get some disapproval for me. Why? Because they
> impose unneeded externalities on the public. They are much
> more deadly for pedestrians and cyclists, especially little
> kids who can actually be invisible around them, hidden
> beneath the huge hoods. And when there is an impact, it's
> much more deadly than a normal sedan, by delivering a whole
> body bash, then running over the body. (Car impacts tend to
> hit the lower body then flip the person onto the hood.) They
> also block vision for other drivers on the road or in
> parking lots. they tend to be noisier, etc.
>
> The ones I really dislike are the dudes who buy a tall
> pickup, jack it up a foot or more, install oversized and
> over-width off road tires, light bars, loud exhausts, chrome
> everything, in-your-face decals, then tailgate stupidly with
> all lights blazing. Those are the twerps who engage in
> "rolling coal" or "ICEing" an EV charging station.
> https://electrek.co/2019/01/01/tesla-pickup-truck-drivers-supercharger-protest/
>
>
> Those guys are assholes. I hope you're not defending them.
>
>

Defend big-truck exhibitionists? Nope.

But hey I also know people who have electric cars which are
arguably worse for society as regards building the PLA Navy,
child slavery:

https://blog.strive2thrive.earth/child-slavery-in-cobalt-mining-congo/

egregious pollution

https://www.industryweek.com/technology-and-iiot/article/22026518/lithium-batteries-dirty-secret-manufacturing-them-leaves-massive-carbon-footprint

state-subsidy corruption and malinvestment.

But hey they're 'green' because we have outsourced our
pollution and paid a retail markup for the privilege. And
electric cars are not the only example of that.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/9/2022 11:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/9/2022 8:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 3/8/2022 8:57 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2022 6:06 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:34:26 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>> <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas
>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
>>>>>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
>>>>>>>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people
>>>>>>>> commit crimes
>>>>>>>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required)
>>>>>>>> weapon. (:-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
>>>>>>> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding
>>>>>>> of 411 was done
>>>>>>> with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
>>>>>>> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of
>>>>>>> Alcohol, Tobacco,
>>>>>>> Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms
>>>>>>> found in his
>>>>>>> hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes,
>>>>>>> had been legally
>>>>>>> purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
>>>>>>> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a
>>>>>>> 9mm handgun at
>>>>>>> Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range
>>>>>>> in Holly
>>>>>>> Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states,
>>>>>>> Georgia does not
>>>>>>> have a waiting period to buy a gun."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic
>>>>>>> rifle and a 9mm
>>>>>>> Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from
>>>>>>> Mateen's body,
>>>>>>> along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally
>>>>>>> purchased the two
>>>>>>> guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St.
>>>>>>> Lucie: the SIG Sauer
>>>>>>> MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
>>>>>>> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close
>>>>>>> legal loopholes
>>>>>>> that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally
>>>>>>> unsound to
>>>>>>> purchase handguns without detection by the National
>>>>>>> Instant Criminal
>>>>>>> Background Check System (NICS)."
>>>>>>> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber
>>>>>>> Walther P22
>>>>>>> semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock
>>>>>>> 19 handgun."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old
>>>>>>> Lanza was old
>>>>>>> enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun,
>>>>>>> but too young
>>>>>>> to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been
>>>>>>> purchased legally
>>>>>>> by his mother."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the
>>>>>>> shooting from
>>>>>>> an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on
>>>>>>> April 7, 2016.
>>>>>>> He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely
>>>>>>> indicated that he
>>>>>>> did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
>>>>>>> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So we can agree that laws, no matter how restrictive and
>>>>>> punitive to the
>>>>>> general population, are not effective against
>>>>>> psychopaths, jihadis and
>>>>>> the like.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, we cannot! As mentioned previously in detail, Canada
>>>>> doubtlessly has
>>>>> a psychopath/jihadi density similar to the U.S. But they
>>>>> have far, far
>>>>> fewer gun deaths. The same can be said for Britain,
>>>>> Ireland, Australia,
>>>>> France, Germany, etc. etc.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nope. Wrong again Tommy, err Franky.
>>>> https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/16-countries-with-the-highest-mental-illness-rates-in-the-world-649757/?singlepage=1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The U.S. seems to be #3 in the world while Canada isn't
>>>> even
>>>> mentioned.
>>>
>>> Nice try, John! You had me almost ready to say "OK, you're
>>> right." But that went away as soon as I began reading your
>>> link.
>>>
>>> Two points: First, my statement which echoed Andrew's was
>>> about "psychopaths" and "jihadis." The link you gave seemed
>>> to concentrate on things like simple depression. Those are
>>> very different maladies or mental states. Your typical
>>> depressed individual can't get motivated to make the bed,
>>> let alone acquire arms and commit an act of terrorism.
>>>
>>> Second, if you think Switzerland, France, Germany etc. are
>>> comparable to the U.S. in mental problems, then why don't
>>> they have America's gun violence problem?
>>>
>>> The obvious answer is what I've been saying: The U.S.
>>> problem isn't population insanity or some inherent evil in
>>> Americans.
>>>
>>> National policies and laws DO make a big difference. We just
>>> have crappy gun laws, and many thousands of lives are ruined
>>> each year because of them.
>>>
>>
>> If the laws and policies of the nation were out of step
>> with the values of the population generally, they would be
>> changed.
>
> OK. As a first step, a large majority of Americans is in
> favor of universal background checks before buying guns.
> That's true even of NRA members. Can we start there?
>
> https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/views-on-gun-policy/psdt_2017-06-22-guns-05-10/
>
>
>
>

As with the vigorous debate around the 1968 firearms act,
ideas which seemed sensible at first were stricken as people
thought further about the follow on effects.

Pointedly, a licensed FFL dealer must keep paper records
which can be retrieved with a warrant in a criminal
investigation (I think that's unreasonable but I wasn't in
Congress at the time and one asked me. It passed).

What the Federal government cannot do is keep a national
registration list. Sensible WWII veterans and survivors of
world famous firearms registration schemes[1] were in
Congress and knew that was an open invitation to disaster.

On 3/9/2022 1:18 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:

<snip>

> Andy in a prior post mentioned having different laws for different areas of the USA. He said rural Wisconsin needs different laws than Milwaukee I believe. And that may be true. But for a country as diverse as the USA, with free travel between all regions, we need one law and rule for everywhere. So doesn't it make sense to implement a law that results in the best outcome, least deaths, for all of USA combined? An analogy: Speeding laws. Some people are able to drive 100 mph and be safe. Others can easily handle 120 mph. Yet most road highways in the USA have 55 or 65 or so speed limits. For the collective good of everyone, we decided to "harm" the fast drivers.

Well in the U.S. there are lots of freeways with 70, 75, and even 80 MPH
speed limits, once you are not in urban areas.

On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 11:08:45 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/9/2022 11:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 3/9/2022 8:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 3/8/2022 8:57 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 3/8/2022 6:06 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:34:26 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>> On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B.
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi
> >>>>>>>> <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas
> >>>>>>>>> where
> >>>>>>>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
> >>>>>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
> >>>>>>>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people
> >>>>>>>> commit crimes
> >>>>>>>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required)
> >>>>>>>> weapon. (:-)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> No.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
> >>>>>>> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding
> >>>>>>> of 411 was done
> >>>>>>> with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
> >>>>>>> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of
> >>>>>>> Alcohol, Tobacco,
> >>>>>>> Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms
> >>>>>>> found in his
> >>>>>>> hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes,
> >>>>>>> had been legally
> >>>>>>> purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
> >>>>>>> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a
> >>>>>>> 9mm handgun at
> >>>>>>> Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range
> >>>>>>> in Holly
> >>>>>>> Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states,
> >>>>>>> Georgia does not
> >>>>>>> have a waiting period to buy a gun."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic
> >>>>>>> rifle and a 9mm
> >>>>>>> Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from
> >>>>>>> Mateen's body,
> >>>>>>> along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally
> >>>>>>> purchased the two
> >>>>>>> guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St.
> >>>>>>> Lucie: the SIG Sauer
> >>>>>>> MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
> >>>>>>> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close
> >>>>>>> legal loopholes
> >>>>>>> that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally
> >>>>>>> unsound to
> >>>>>>> purchase handguns without detection by the National
> >>>>>>> Instant Criminal
> >>>>>>> Background Check System (NICS)."
> >>>>>>> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber
> >>>>>>> Walther P22
> >>>>>>> semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock
> >>>>>>> 19 handgun."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old
> >>>>>>> Lanza was old
> >>>>>>> enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun,
> >>>>>>> but too young
> >>>>>>> to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been
> >>>>>>> purchased legally
> >>>>>>> by his mother."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the
> >>>>>>> shooting from
> >>>>>>> an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on
> >>>>>>> April 7, 2016.
> >>>>>>> He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely
> >>>>>>> indicated that he
> >>>>>>> did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
> >>>>>>> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So we can agree that laws, no matter how restrictive and
> >>>>>> punitive to the
> >>>>>> general population, are not effective against
> >>>>>> psychopaths, jihadis and
> >>>>>> the like.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No, we cannot! As mentioned previously in detail, Canada
> >>>>> doubtlessly has
> >>>>> a psychopath/jihadi density similar to the U.S. But they
> >>>>> have far, far
> >>>>> fewer gun deaths. The same can be said for Britain,
> >>>>> Ireland, Australia,
> >>>>> France, Germany, etc. etc.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Nope. Wrong again Tommy, err Franky.
> >>>> https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/16-countries-with-the-highest-mental-illness-rates-in-the-world-649757/?singlepage=1
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The U.S. seems to be #3 in the world while Canada isn't
> >>>> even
> >>>> mentioned.
> >>>
> >>> Nice try, John! You had me almost ready to say "OK, you're
> >>> right." But that went away as soon as I began reading your
> >>> link.
> >>>
> >>> Two points: First, my statement which echoed Andrew's was
> >>> about "psychopaths" and "jihadis." The link you gave seemed
> >>> to concentrate on things like simple depression. Those are
> >>> very different maladies or mental states. Your typical
> >>> depressed individual can't get motivated to make the bed,
> >>> let alone acquire arms and commit an act of terrorism.
> >>>
> >>> Second, if you think Switzerland, France, Germany etc. are
> >>> comparable to the U.S. in mental problems, then why don't
> >>> they have America's gun violence problem?
> >>>
> >>> The obvious answer is what I've been saying: The U.S.
> >>> problem isn't population insanity or some inherent evil in
> >>> Americans.
> >>>
> >>> National policies and laws DO make a big difference. We just
> >>> have crappy gun laws, and many thousands of lives are ruined
> >>> each year because of them.
> >>>
> >>
> >> If the laws and policies of the nation were out of step
> >> with the values of the population generally, they would be
> >> changed.
> >
> > OK. As a first step, a large majority of Americans is in
> > favor of universal background checks before buying guns.
> > That's true even of NRA members. Can we start there?
> >
> > https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/views-on-gun-policy/psdt_2017-06-22-guns-05-10/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> As with the vigorous debate around the 1968 firearms act,
> ideas which seemed sensible at first were stricken as people
> thought further about the follow on effects.
>
> Pointedly, a licensed FFL dealer must keep paper records
> which can be retrieved with a warrant in a criminal
> investigation (I think that's unreasonable but I wasn't in
> Congress at the time and one asked me. It passed).
>
> What the Federal government cannot do is keep a national
> registration list. Sensible WWII veterans and survivors of
> world famous firearms registration schemes[1] were in
> Congress and knew that was an open invitation to disaster.
>
>
> [1] https://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf
>
> Even the most notorious left-wing spin organization didn't
> dispute those facts:
>
> https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/little-gun-history/
>
> Merely noting that the opportunity to subjugate an unarmed
> population doesn't mean the certainty of genocide. Weak
> argument IMHO.

On 3/9/2022 1:44 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/9/2022 10:43 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/9/2022 8:48 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2022 8:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of
>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of
>>>>>>>>>> deaths
>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas
>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but
>>>>>>>>> upthread
>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern
>>>>>>>>> Republican
>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger
>>>>>>>>> right wing
>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are
>>>>>>>> concentrated
>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the
>>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend
>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states
>>>>>>> tend
>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last
>>>>>>> election of
>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016:
>>>>>>> “We won with
>>>>>>> poorly
>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major
>>>>>> parties.
>>>>>
>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the
>>>>> voters, "Elect me
>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social
>>>>> Security,
>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food
>>>>> and housing
>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>
>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>>
>>>
>>> There's a difference between 'price' and 'cost'.  You pay
>>> 55 cents for First Class postage. The _cost_ is something
>>> in the $1.50 range.
>>>
>>> One might say that Medicaid is 'free' but in fact it's
>>> eating State budgets in big chunks:
>>>
>>> https://www.kff.org/medicaid/state-indicator/total-medicaid-spending/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For California in particular 28% of the entire budget. And
>>> growing.
>>>
>>> Cost of health care in Thailand is not a few bhat per person.
>>
>> Agreed on all counts.
>>
>> However, I've seen dozens of evaluations of American health
>> care _costs_ vs. those of other countries. Not one that I've
>> seen has failed to mark the U.S. system as hugely expensive,
>> as well as less effective.
>>
>> Honestly, I think the arguments in favor of U.S. health care
>> policy are far, far weaker than those in favor of U.S. gun
>> policy. And that's saying something!
>>
>
> Thank you.
> For 'health care costs' how would you deal with the gargantuan
> regulatory & compliance expenses?
>
> Can't just buy an MRI - you have to pay off the State review board to
> get a 'Certificate of Need' first. And you have to keep paying them so
> your competitor doesn't buy one in your 'service area'.  What could go
> wrong? My employee who had a 'handlebar into spleen' event was billed
> $3800 for an MRI. At DIC Chicago, (not hospital affiliated) it's flat
> rate $325:
> https://radiologyassist.com/facility-locations-rates/locations-by-city/mri/chicago-il-mri/
>
>
> Oh, and they are a profitable concern, not charity.
>
> Not the only example - the entire industry is like that.

If you're complaining about medical expenses in Wisconsin, you're in
effect calling for different health care policies. So am I!

If you want a quick, simple (or simplistic) answer to "How would you
deal with it?" I'd say replicate Canada's system. Or Switzerland's. Or
Britain's. Or Ireland's. Or France's, etc.

Really, it's hard to find a developed country that does worse than the
U.S. with health care.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/9/2022 1:53 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/9/2022 11:02 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/9/2022 8:40 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2022 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 3/8/2022 6:17 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:09:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered
>>>>>> access to rapid
>>>>>> fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person must
>>>>>> pull the trigger
>>>>>> to shoot someone; but in other nations with more rational
>>>>>> policies,
>>>>>> people don't shoot people nearly as often.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the
>>>>>> lack of rapid
>>>>>> fire arms. That's because things like ARs have no
>>>>>> practical advantages
>>>>>> for civilians.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But Frank, as I and Andrew have both told you, and given
>>>>> reference,
>>>>> rifles, i.e, those terrifying AR type guns, are used in
>>>>> murders far
>>>>> less often then other type of firearms. Less often, even,
>>>>> then hands
>>>>> and feet.
>>>>>
>>>>> But in spite of all evidence to the contrary you continue
>>>>> to curse and
>>>>> damn the AR type. Dementia?  or Lies?
>>>>
>>>> Neither. First, as noted, the "firearm type undetermined"
>>>> category was so large that your claims have little value.
>>>> (When someone shoots a person and leaves, it's quite
>>>> difficult to determine the length of the barrel. Isn't that
>>>> obvious?)
>>>>
>>>> Second, although you won't admit it, all deaths are not
>>>> equal. Society rightly considers mass shootings - like
>>>> killing a couple dozen grade school kids - to be
>>>> particularly heinous. Mass shootings happen with sickening
>>>> regularity in the U.S., certainly far more often than in
>>>> comparable developed nations. For the worst mass shootings,
>>>> the AR is perhaps the top weapon of choice.
>>>>
>>>> That counts as a MAJOR societal disadvantage for the AR and
>>>> its kin.
>>>>
>>>> To balance that major disadvantage, the AR offers the
>>>> following practical advantages:  "Dude, it's cool!"  "It
>>>> looks like Rambo's gun!"   "It makes me FEEL like Rambo!"
>>>> "I can put 20 rounds into a man-shaped target in ten
>>>> seconds!"  "I can buy all kinds of cool, deadly
>>>> accessories!"  "If Those Other People ever storm my
>>>> suburban
>>>> bungalow, I can take out a whole crowd of them!"
>>>>
>>>> Oh, and "Ah LIKE my gun!"
>>>>
>>>> Guys who want to pretend to be Rambo should join a _real_
>>>> militia. The National Guard qualifies.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You project similar fantasies on pickup truck owners as a
>>> class and you're mostly wrong in both cases.  A few
>>> idiots own bicycles. A few idiots own pickup trucks. A few
>>> idiots own firearms. But they are (blissfully) not
>>> 'everyone' nor widespread.
>>
>> Please try to remember I don't attribute those motives to
>> all pickup drivers. Two of my best friends and one extended
>> family member currently own pickups, and need and use them
>> for their capabilities. I make no complaints about pickups
>> hauling hay bales, or loaded with construction equipment,
>> machinery, huge tool boxes etc.
>>
>> A squeaky clean fashionable 4x4 used to haul a
>> testosterone-deficient suburban guy to his insurance company
>> desk job does get some disapproval for me. Why? Because they
>> impose unneeded externalities on the public. They are much
>> more deadly for pedestrians and cyclists, especially little
>> kids who can actually be invisible around them, hidden
>> beneath the huge hoods. And when there is an impact, it's
>> much more deadly than a normal sedan, by delivering a whole
>> body bash, then running over the body. (Car impacts tend to
>> hit the lower body then flip the person onto the hood.) They
>> also block vision for other drivers on the road or in
>> parking lots. they tend to be noisier, etc.
>>
>> The ones I really dislike are the dudes who buy a tall
>> pickup, jack it up a foot or more, install oversized and
>> over-width off road tires, light bars, loud exhausts, chrome
>> everything, in-your-face decals, then tailgate stupidly with
>> all lights blazing. Those are the twerps who engage in
>> "rolling coal" or "ICEing" an EV charging station.
>> https://electrek.co/2019/01/01/tesla-pickup-truck-drivers-supercharger-protest/
>>
>>
>>
>> Those guys are assholes. I hope you're not defending them.
>>
>>
>
> Defend big-truck exhibitionists? Nope.
>
> But hey I also know people who have electric cars which are arguably
> worse for society as regards building the PLA Navy, child slavery:
>
> https://blog.strive2thrive.earth/child-slavery-in-cobalt-mining-congo/
>
> egregious pollution
>
> https://www.industryweek.com/technology-and-iiot/article/22026518/lithium-batteries-dirty-secret-manufacturing-them-leaves-massive-carbon-footprint
>
>
> state-subsidy corruption and malinvestment.
>
> But hey they're 'green' because we have outsourced our pollution and
> paid a retail markup for the privilege. And electric cars are not the
> only example of that.

OK, sounds like all motor vehicles are evil, one way or another. And
John says bicycles are evil too.

Let's all just walk. Barefoot, of course. I know a lot about Nike!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/9/2022 3:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I think that Frank does not voice his opinions around people that he refers to as his friends.

You're wrong, Tom. As usual.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/9/2022 2:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/9/2022 11:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/9/2022 8:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>> If the laws and policies of the nation were out of step
>>> with the values of the population generally, they would be
>>> changed.
>>
>> OK. As a first step, a large majority of Americans is in
>> favor of universal background checks before buying guns.
>> That's true even of NRA members. Can we start there?
>>
>> https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/views-on-gun-policy/psdt_2017-06-22-guns-05-10/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> As with the vigorous debate around the 1968 firearms act, ideas which
> seemed sensible at first were stricken as people thought further about
> the follow on effects.
>
> Pointedly, a licensed FFL dealer must keep paper records which can be
> retrieved with a warrant in a criminal investigation (I think that's
> unreasonable but I wasn't in Congress at the time and one asked me. It
> passed).
>
> What the Federal government cannot do is keep a national registration
> list. Sensible WWII veterans and survivors of world famous firearms
> registration schemes[1] were in Congress and knew that was an open
> invitation to disaster.
>
>
> [1] https://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf
>
> Even the most notorious left-wing spin organization didn't dispute those
> facts:
>
> https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/little-gun-history/
>
> Merely noting that the opportunity to subjugate an unarmed population
> doesn't mean the certainty of genocide. Weak argument IMHO.

Like it or not, Snopes is disagreeing with your implied premise: that if
we have universal background checks, the government will soon enslave
all Americans - or whatever you really mean.

Governments have not enslaved all Canadians, British, Irish, French,
Norwegians, Spanish, etc. etc. And as a further detail, a background
check is not the same as a gun registration.

As it is now in the U.S., a confirmed psychopathic sadist can easily and
legally buy a gun. In many states he can carry it almost anywhere
without a permit. In many, he doesn't even have to tell a cop he's
carrying one if a cop stops him for some reason.

Does this sound perfectly logical? Gosh, how could anything go wrong?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 4:16:17 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/9/2022 2:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 3/9/2022 11:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 3/9/2022 8:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>
> >>> If the laws and policies of the nation were out of step
> >>> with the values of the population generally, they would be
> >>> changed.
> >>
> >> OK. As a first step, a large majority of Americans is in
> >> favor of universal background checks before buying guns.
> >> That's true even of NRA members. Can we start there?
> >>
> >> https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/views-on-gun-policy/psdt_2017-06-22-guns-05-10/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > As with the vigorous debate around the 1968 firearms act, ideas which
> > seemed sensible at first were stricken as people thought further about
> > the follow on effects.
> >
> > Pointedly, a licensed FFL dealer must keep paper records which can be
> > retrieved with a warrant in a criminal investigation (I think that's
> > unreasonable but I wasn't in Congress at the time and one asked me. It
> > passed).
> >
> > What the Federal government cannot do is keep a national registration
> > list. Sensible WWII veterans and survivors of world famous firearms
> > registration schemes[1] were in Congress and knew that was an open
> > invitation to disaster.
> >
> >
> > [1] https://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf
> >
> > Even the most notorious left-wing spin organization didn't dispute those
> > facts:
> >
> > https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/little-gun-history/
> >
> > Merely noting that the opportunity to subjugate an unarmed population
> > doesn't mean the certainty of genocide. Weak argument IMHO.
> Like it or not, Snopes is disagreeing with your implied premise: that if
> we have universal background checks, the government will soon enslave
> all Americans - or whatever you really mean.
>
> Governments have not enslaved all Canadians, British, Irish, French,
> Norwegians, Spanish, etc. etc. And as a further detail, a background
> check is not the same as a gun registration.
>
> As it is now in the U.S., a confirmed psychopathic sadist can easily and
> legally buy a gun. In many states he can carry it almost anywhere
> without a permit. In many, he doesn't even have to tell a cop he's
> carrying one if a cop stops him for some reason.
>
> Does this sound perfectly logical? Gosh, how could anything go wrong?
>
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

It seems to me that Andrew, Johnny, and tommy are all of the same ilk that a few dozen dead children from a school shooting every once in a while are an acceptable price to pay in order to keep unfettered access to fully automatic weapons with high capacity magazines so pot-bellied militia wannbes can play rambo. The 'most notorious left-wing spin organization >snopes' comment is a dead give away (pun intended).

On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>
>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>>
>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>
>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>
>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>
>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>> for those over 60.
>>
>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>
>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>
>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>>
>> Or what?
>
>I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>and the society.

But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
I'll give you...".

And you start a rant about Thailand.

Nice switch of the subject.

Unless, of course, you are arguing that what is done in Thailand
justify's doing the same thing in the U.S.?

But perhaps you are. After all we have coups here where one group
grabs power and surely that is what Trump would like to do. So you
worship the "Great Yellow Gnome"?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 9:34:13 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 5:44:39 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> > On Fri, 04 Mar 2022 18:56:37 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> > >On 3/4/2022 6:42 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >> On Fri, 04 Mar 2022 08:16:44 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> On 3/3/2022 11:30 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>>> On Thursday, March 3, 2022 at 7:31:29 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>> On 3/3/2022 6:36 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 13:53:32 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > >>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On 3/2/2022 8:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 19:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > >>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On 3/2/2022 12:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>> On 3/2/2022 10:10 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/1/2022 8:40 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 19:40:29 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/1/2022 4:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/1/2022 2:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/1/2022 3:44 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/1/2022 1:40 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/1/2022 11:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/1/2022 10:04 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you explain to me _why_ you think Canadians
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are ...
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inherently? genetically? ... more civilized than
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Americans,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you'll have a point.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BTW, your explanation should also apply to Brits,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Irish,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> French, Swedes and so many other countries that
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have far
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fewer gun deaths than the U.S. (Since you brought
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up the
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subject, I'll rely on you to look up their rates of
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rape and
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other violent crimes.)
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Until you come up with a better explanation, I'm
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assume that differences in gun death rates have a lot
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to do
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with their national policies, as implemented by their
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laws,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Briefly, my view is that national policies make a big
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> difference in how people behave.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your view is, apparently, "Americans are just bad."
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Feel free to restate your view if it's different. And
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> change the subject, John. This is what we are talking
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _now_.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When Andrew Cuomo was Mr Cinton's HUD Secretary, he
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> announced a firearm buyback program for residents of
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> public housing. Reporter asked if firearms made public
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> housing dangerous or if residents felt a need to arm
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves for  protection because their
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hallways and
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> neighborhoods had become more dangerous.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which doesn't address John's implication that
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Americans are
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just fundamentally evil. I guess that's his way of
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saying
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that laws and policies make no difference.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But I wonder what those public housing residents are
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afraid
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of? Is it punks with slingshots? Or punks with some
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different weaponry?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do people in violent neighborhoods fear? Knives,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beatings, assaults of various severity and yes firearms.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Get rid of firearms and you have the same vicious people
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then add in an incitement to tyranny of an unarmed
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> population.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For an elderly woman with some guy coming through her
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bedroom window, a knife or club is of limited utility.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When seconds matter, 911 is just twenty minutes away.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As usual, I wonder about other countries. Do they not have
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the problems you describe to the degree Americans do? If
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they don't, why not? Is it genetics? Or is it laws and
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> policies?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If they do have the problems, how do they manage them
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without every elderly woman owning an AR rifle or rapid
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fire
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handgun?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you mean by 'rapid fire' ? Typical home defense
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> pistols are
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> revolvers and striker type 9mm (or .380 /.40). Those all
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fire at the
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> same speed[1].
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll bet you can't find even one police or news report
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the past year
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in USA where a full-auto pistol was used for home
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-defense.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I did not say "full auto." And I'd say even nine rounds
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> at two rounds
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> per second qualifies as "rapid fire." Hunters don't do
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> that. Target
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> shooters do that only if they're pretending to be in combat.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> OTOH which of these scenarios would you prefer for your
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> relative or
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A)Â This common crime?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-wordle-mother-saved-lincolnwood-20220211-ecz5istdfrhvzdin4kibdwyrmi-story.html
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> B) or more like this?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.foxnews.com/us/elderly-man-shoots-kills-half-naked-home-intruder-who-assaulted-his-wife
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Common crime"?? Talk about a "Danger! Danger!" statement!
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Somehow, the universe I live in is not nearly so scary,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> at least to me
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and mine.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> But yet again: Why is it necessary for each U.S.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> household to be armed
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> for protection? Why is it not necessary in Canada,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Britain, Norway,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Portugal...
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> {1} in the real world.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In TeeVee world, firearms are magic lead-spraying
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices which always
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hit the intended target such as the bad guy's wrist when
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wielded by good
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> guy. Bad guy firearms also spray huge quantities just
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> over good guy's
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> head with magic sound effects.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm well aware of that silly glorification of gun culture..
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I read that from 1949 to 2021 there were some 512
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> homicides in
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> mass shootings and from 1949 until 2018 there were 51,403
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> killed on
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> bicycles.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Benefits vs. detriments, John. Benefits vs. detriments. I
> > >>>>>>>>>>> can list the benefits of bicycling (again!) if necessary.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> They've repeatedly been shown to tremendously outweigh the
> > >>>>>>>>>>> detriments.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> What are the practical benefits of letting any macho nutcase
> > >>>>>>>>>>> buy things like AR rifles? I don't believe you've ever
> > >>>>>>>>>>> answered that question!
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> You also haven't answered the closely related question of
> > >>>>>>>>>>> how you manage to get by without owning one. ISTM that's
> > >>>>>>>>>>> proof these guns are far from essential.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> For a roughly similar price range and a roughly similar installed base
> > >>>>>>>>>> of both products ( bicycles and firearms) your personal bias seems at
> > >>>>>>>>>> least out of step with general USA opinion. Which is fine, but you're
> > >>>>>>>>>> not the arbiter and a large number of people see the problem differently.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> That statement avoided answering the question. What are the practical
> > >>>>>>>>> benefits of letting any macho nutcase by things like AR rifles? After
> > >>>>>>>>> all, we can count the detriments, starting with body counts.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Yup, what is the benefit???
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> For a TV?
> > >>>>>>>> For living room furniture?
> > >>>>>>>> For a bed?
> > >>>>>>>> For a pet dog?
> > >>>>>>>> For a bottle of beer
> > >>>>>>>> or a glass of whiskey
> > >>>>>>>> Or even a wife
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Wow - from the guy who accused ME of changing the subject!
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> We're not talking about those things, John. And none of those have the
> > >>>>>>> disadvantage of abetting mass murder of schoolkids.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Frank... you stated above, "What are the practical
> > >>>>>> benefits" in fact you mentioned it at least twice in this series of
> > >>>>>> posts.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I'm simply point out that your claim to "benefits" is simply that,
> > >>>>>> another argument and that "benefits" in the U.S. apply largely to
> > >>>>>> things that are really not required. "Luxuries" one might say.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> But Frank, do tell us about the "benefits" of the $30 hand bags.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> I'm with you generally but it seems to have been a long
> > >>>>> while since you were buying 'girlfriend food' for an
> > >>>>> American woman. A '$30 handbag' is something one finds at a
> > >>>>> thrift store. A '$30 handbag' is not suitable as a gift.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I'm going to go way out on a limb and say you are WRONG Andy. Wrong about $30 handbags at thrift stores. I have been in thrift stores. Salvation Army store. Never looked at the handbag section of course. But $30 for a handbag at a thrift store seems outrageously expensive. Crazy expensive. Now belts I do look at in thrift stores. Men's belts. I buy them for a $1 in the thrift store. Great, great belts. Almost like brand new. I have 5 or 6 in reserve now. Belts that probably cost $20 or $30 new. But only $1 at the thrift store. Yeah!!! I am going to bet women's handbags are just like men's belts at the thrift store. They get lots of them and sell them for a buck or two to get rid of them fast. No $30 handbags at the thrift store.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=genuine+new+fendi+bag&t=h_&ia=web
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=genuine+new+prada+handbag&t=h_&ia=web
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm with Ms Slocumb on this. No man in his right mind would
> > >>> give a woman a $30 handbag.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> The difference between the U.S. and Thailand.
> > >>
> > >> I just told my wife what you said - I had to explain the "Ms" - and
> > >> she sort of "got her back up" as the saying goes, and rather
> > >> indignantly said, (I'm translating here) "What's this "Ms"? I'm a
> > >> married woman! Do you want people to think I'm just shacked up with
> > >> you?
> > >> (:-)
> > >>
> > >
> > >Please convey my apology, no offense intended.
>
> John is beginning to see that when the face of doom is approaching the beliefs of the radical leftist Democrats, they begin eating each other as not being nearly radical enough. Hopefully this will be a lesson to John that when you sleep with pigs you wake up with pigs.
>
> Question? Why was he claiming I was never in the Air Force? To kiss up to his radical leftist pig friends. To become one of a group. Well, most people need the sustenance of a group so there's nothing wrong with looking for friends. But when you found your group upon the false beliefs of radicalism, you aren't a friend and part of a group. You are nothing but the next target that isn't radical enough.

On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 08:09:36 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/9/2022 3:18 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 10:15:24 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:57:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/8/2022 6:06 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:34:26 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
>>>>>>>>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
>>>>>>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
>>>>>>>>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
>>>>>>>>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon. (:-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
>>>>>>>> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done
>>>>>>>> with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
>>>>>>>> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
>>>>>>>> Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his
>>>>>>>> hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally
>>>>>>>> purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
>>>>>>>> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at
>>>>>>>> Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly
>>>>>>>> Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not
>>>>>>>> have a waiting period to buy a gun."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
>>>>>>>> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm
>>>>>>>> Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body,
>>>>>>>> along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two
>>>>>>>> guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer
>>>>>>>> MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
>>>>>>>> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes
>>>>>>>> that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to
>>>>>>>> purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal
>>>>>>>> Background Check System (NICS)."
>>>>>>>> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22
>>>>>>>> semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
>>>>>>>> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old
>>>>>>>> enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young
>>>>>>>> to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally
>>>>>>>> by his mother."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
>>>>>>>> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from
>>>>>>>> an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016.
>>>>>>>> He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he
>>>>>>>> did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
>>>>>>>> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So we can agree that laws, no matter how restrictive and punitive to the
>>>>>>> general population, are not effective against psychopaths, jihadis and
>>>>>>> the like.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, we cannot! As mentioned previously in detail, Canada doubtlessly has
>>>>>> a psychopath/jihadi density similar to the U.S. But they have far, far
>>>>>> fewer gun deaths. The same can be said for Britain, Ireland, Australia,
>>>>>> France, Germany, etc. etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope. Wrong again Tommy, err Franky.
>>>>> https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/16-countries-with-the-highest-mental-illness-rates-in-the-world-649757/?singlepage=1
>>>>>
>>>>> The U.S. seems to be #3 in the world while Canada isn't even
>>>>> mentioned.
>>>>
>>>> Nice try, John! You had me almost ready to say "OK, you're right." But
>>>> that went away as soon as I began reading your link.
>>>>
>>>> Two points: First, my statement which echoed Andrew's was about
>>>> "psychopaths" and "jihadis." The link you gave seemed to concentrate on
>>>> things like simple depression. Those are very different maladies or
>>>> mental states. Your typical depressed individual can't get motivated to
>>>> make the bed, let alone acquire arms and commit an act of terrorism.
>>>>
>>>> Second, if you think Switzerland, France, Germany etc. are comparable to
>>>> the U.S. in mental problems, then why don't they have America's gun
>>>> violence problem?
>>>>
>>>> The obvious answer is what I've been saying: The U.S. problem isn't
>>>> population insanity or some inherent evil in Americans.
>>>>
>>>> National policies and laws DO make a big difference. We just have crappy
>>>> gun laws, and many thousands of lives are ruined each year because of them.
>>> Gee Frank, I do believe that you have "gone right round the bend" as
>>> the saying goes. Jihads are gun criminals?
>>>
>>> And here I had always understood that Jihads were the extensively
>>> religious people. The word "jihad", in Arabic, simply means to strive
>>> or struggle and is generally used in the sense of striving or
>>> struggling against the non-believers.
>>> I might add that I spent many years in Indonesia the largest
>>> (population wise) Islamic country in the world.
>>>
>>> And now you are telling me that they are just gun criminals.
>>
>> I'm sure you already know this John, but just in case I will spell it out. In the USA, a "Jihadi" or "Jihadist" or whatever the proper term is, means an Arab Muslim brown skinned black haired terrorist who murders white Caucasian Christians. That is the definition. Just like "Coke" means any and all carbonated soft drinks. Doesn't matter if its officially a Coca Cola product or a Pepsi Cola or a Mountain Dew or a 7-Up. Its all Coke. All Jihadis are Arab Muslim terrorists.

Nope. You don't know your middle east. All Jihads are not Arabs and if
you ask them they will tell you. It isn't a secret. Just like all
Africans are not, oh say, Tutus or Zulu, or all Orientals are not
Chinese, or, or, or.

>>
>>
>>>
>>> But if bad gun laws are really the cause of the levels of crime in the
>>> U.S. how do you explain the fact that some states, Vermont comes to
>>> mind here, have very, very lax, or non existent, gun laws and a very
>>> low level of gun crime. The "upper" New England States, New Hampshire,
>>> Vermont and Maine have gun ownership of 41.10%, 50.5% and 46.80% and a
>>> gun homicide rate of 0.6/100,000, 1.3 and 1.2. And these states are
>>> not unique. Oregon has gun ownership of 50,8% and a firearm homicide
>>> rate of 0.8.
>>>
>>> But Louisiana has a gun ownership rate of 53.1% and a firearm homicide
>>> rate of 8.1. roughly 3% more guns then Vermont and Oregon and as much
>>> as 10 times the gun crime.
>>>
>>> Your arguments don't seem to reflect realism.
>>
>> Andy in a prior post mentioned having different laws for different areas of the USA. He said rural Wisconsin needs different laws than Milwaukee I believe. And that may be true. But for a country as diverse as the USA, with free travel between all regions, we need one law and rule for everywhere. So doesn't it make sense to implement a law that results in the best outcome, least deaths, for all of USA combined? An analogy: Speeding laws. Some people are able to drive 100 mph and be safe. Others can easily handle 120 mph. Yet most road highways in the USA have 55 or 65 or so speed limits. For the collective good of everyone, we decided to "harm" the fast drivers.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> But that is the nice thing about bigotry isn't it. One doesn't have to
>>> mess about with logic, data or facts. Just seize onto any old idea and
>>> you are set for life.
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John B.
>
>Absolute horse poop. You fantasized that on your own.
>
>You left out the magnitudes larger numbers of enslaved and
>murdered Christians in The Sudans, more voluminoulsy in
>Nigeria, spreading rapidly in Francophone Africa. Americans
>suffer very little in comparison and American victims come
>in every shade, like Americans.

On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 14:17:06 -0800 (PST), James Carrington
<jhcjrx@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 4:16:17 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/9/2022 2:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> > On 3/9/2022 11:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> On 3/9/2022 8:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> If the laws and policies of the nation were out of step
>> >>> with the values of the population generally, they would be
>> >>> changed.
>> >>
>> >> OK. As a first step, a large majority of Americans is in
>> >> favor of universal background checks before buying guns.
>> >> That's true even of NRA members. Can we start there?
>> >>
>> >> https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/views-on-gun-policy/psdt_2017-06-22-guns-05-10/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > As with the vigorous debate around the 1968 firearms act, ideas which
>> > seemed sensible at first were stricken as people thought further about
>> > the follow on effects.
>> >
>> > Pointedly, a licensed FFL dealer must keep paper records which can be
>> > retrieved with a warrant in a criminal investigation (I think that's
>> > unreasonable but I wasn't in Congress at the time and one asked me. It
>> > passed).
>> >
>> > What the Federal government cannot do is keep a national registration
>> > list. Sensible WWII veterans and survivors of world famous firearms
>> > registration schemes[1] were in Congress and knew that was an open
>> > invitation to disaster.
>> >
>> >
>> > [1] https://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf
>> >
>> > Even the most notorious left-wing spin organization didn't dispute those
>> > facts:
>> >
>> > https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/little-gun-history/
>> >
>> > Merely noting that the opportunity to subjugate an unarmed population
>> > doesn't mean the certainty of genocide. Weak argument IMHO.
>> Like it or not, Snopes is disagreeing with your implied premise: that if
>> we have universal background checks, the government will soon enslave
>> all Americans - or whatever you really mean.
>>
>> Governments have not enslaved all Canadians, British, Irish, French,
>> Norwegians, Spanish, etc. etc. And as a further detail, a background
>> check is not the same as a gun registration.
>>
>> As it is now in the U.S., a confirmed psychopathic sadist can easily and
>> legally buy a gun. In many states he can carry it almost anywhere
>> without a permit. In many, he doesn't even have to tell a cop he's
>> carrying one if a cop stops him for some reason.
>>
>> Does this sound perfectly logical? Gosh, how could anything go wrong?
>>
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> It seems to me that Andrew, Johnny, and tommy are all of the same ilk that a few dozen dead children from a school shooting every once in a while are an acceptable price to pay in order to keep unfettered access to fully automatic weapons with high capacity magazines so pot-bellied militia wannbes can play rambo. The 'most notorious left-wing spin organization >snopes' comment is a dead give away (pun intended).

(:-)
Well lets see. I showed records that demonstrated that somr 500 had
been killed in what was it? 72 years? of Mass shootings and 50,000
killed on bicycles during the same period.

And as for "unfettered access to fully automatic weapons"? Nope, not
in the U.S. since 1934 with the National Firearms Law (or whatever it
was called) as for the big magazines, well, yes today. But they were
banned from 1994 until 2004 and the results of the ban was:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban
A 2017 review found that there was no evidence that ban had a
significant effect on firearm homicides.
A 2014 study found no impacts on homicide rates with an assault weapon
ban.[29] A 2014 book published by Oxford University Press noted that
"There is no compelling evidence that [the ban] saved lives."[30][31]
In 2004, a research report commissioned by the National Institute of
Justice found that if the ban was renewed, the effects on gun violence
would likely be small and perhaps too small for reliable measurement

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 5:01:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 08:09:36 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >On 3/9/2022 3:18 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 10:15:24 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:57:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 3/8/2022 6:06 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:34:26 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
> >>>>>>>>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
> >>>>>>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
> >>>>>>>>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
> >>>>>>>>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon. (:-)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> No.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
> >>>>>>>> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done
> >>>>>>>> with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
> >>>>>>>> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
> >>>>>>>> Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his
> >>>>>>>> hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally
> >>>>>>>> purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
> >>>>>>>> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at
> >>>>>>>> Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly
> >>>>>>>> Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not
> >>>>>>>> have a waiting period to buy a gun."
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
> >>>>>>>> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm
> >>>>>>>> Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body,
> >>>>>>>> along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two
> >>>>>>>> guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer
> >>>>>>>> MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
> >>>>>>>> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes
> >>>>>>>> that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to
> >>>>>>>> purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal
> >>>>>>>> Background Check System (NICS)."
> >>>>>>>> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22
> >>>>>>>> semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
> >>>>>>>> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old
> >>>>>>>> enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young
> >>>>>>>> to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally
> >>>>>>>> by his mother."
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
> >>>>>>>> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from
> >>>>>>>> an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016.
> >>>>>>>> He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he
> >>>>>>>> did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
> >>>>>>>> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So we can agree that laws, no matter how restrictive and punitive to the
> >>>>>>> general population, are not effective against psychopaths, jihadis and
> >>>>>>> the like.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> No, we cannot! As mentioned previously in detail, Canada doubtlessly has
> >>>>>> a psychopath/jihadi density similar to the U.S. But they have far, far
> >>>>>> fewer gun deaths. The same can be said for Britain, Ireland, Australia,
> >>>>>> France, Germany, etc. etc.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Nope. Wrong again Tommy, err Franky.
> >>>>> https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/16-countries-with-the-highest-mental-illness-rates-in-the-world-649757/?singlepage=1
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The U.S. seems to be #3 in the world while Canada isn't even
> >>>>> mentioned.
> >>>>
> >>>> Nice try, John! You had me almost ready to say "OK, you're right." But
> >>>> that went away as soon as I began reading your link.
> >>>>
> >>>> Two points: First, my statement which echoed Andrew's was about
> >>>> "psychopaths" and "jihadis." The link you gave seemed to concentrate on
> >>>> things like simple depression. Those are very different maladies or
> >>>> mental states. Your typical depressed individual can't get motivated to
> >>>> make the bed, let alone acquire arms and commit an act of terrorism.
> >>>>
> >>>> Second, if you think Switzerland, France, Germany etc. are comparable to
> >>>> the U.S. in mental problems, then why don't they have America's gun
> >>>> violence problem?
> >>>>
> >>>> The obvious answer is what I've been saying: The U.S. problem isn't
> >>>> population insanity or some inherent evil in Americans.
> >>>>
> >>>> National policies and laws DO make a big difference. We just have crappy
> >>>> gun laws, and many thousands of lives are ruined each year because of them.
> >>> Gee Frank, I do believe that you have "gone right round the bend" as
> >>> the saying goes. Jihads are gun criminals?
> >>>
> >>> And here I had always understood that Jihads were the extensively
> >>> religious people. The word "jihad", in Arabic, simply means to strive
> >>> or struggle and is generally used in the sense of striving or
> >>> struggling against the non-believers.
> >>> I might add that I spent many years in Indonesia the largest
> >>> (population wise) Islamic country in the world.
> >>>
> >>> And now you are telling me that they are just gun criminals.
> >>
> >> I'm sure you already know this John, but just in case I will spell it out. In the USA, a "Jihadi" or "Jihadist" or whatever the proper term is, means an Arab Muslim brown skinned black haired terrorist who murders white Caucasian Christians. That is the definition. Just like "Coke" means any and all carbonated soft drinks. Doesn't matter if its officially a Coca Cola product or a Pepsi Cola or a Mountain Dew or a 7-Up. Its all Coke. All Jihadis are Arab Muslim terrorists.
> Nope. You don't know your middle east. All Jihads are not Arabs and if
> you ask them they will tell you. It isn't a secret. Just like all
> Africans are not, oh say, Tutus or Zulu, or all Orientals are not
> Chinese, or, or, or.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 06:17:57 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 14:17:06 -0800 (PST), James Carrington
><jhcjrx@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 4:16:17 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 3/9/2022 2:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> > On 3/9/2022 11:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> >> On 3/9/2022 8:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> If the laws and policies of the nation were out of step
>>> >>> with the values of the population generally, they would be
>>> >>> changed.
>>> >>
>>> >> OK. As a first step, a large majority of Americans is in
>>> >> favor of universal background checks before buying guns.
>>> >> That's true even of NRA members. Can we start there?
>>> >>
>>> >> https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/views-on-gun-policy/psdt_2017-06-22-guns-05-10/
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > As with the vigorous debate around the 1968 firearms act, ideas which
>>> > seemed sensible at first were stricken as people thought further about
>>> > the follow on effects.
>>> >
>>> > Pointedly, a licensed FFL dealer must keep paper records which can be
>>> > retrieved with a warrant in a criminal investigation (I think that's
>>> > unreasonable but I wasn't in Congress at the time and one asked me. It
>>> > passed).
>>> >
>>> > What the Federal government cannot do is keep a national registration
>>> > list. Sensible WWII veterans and survivors of world famous firearms
>>> > registration schemes[1] were in Congress and knew that was an open
>>> > invitation to disaster.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > [1] https://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf
>>> >
>>> > Even the most notorious left-wing spin organization didn't dispute those
>>> > facts:
>>> >
>>> > https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/little-gun-history/
>>> >
>>> > Merely noting that the opportunity to subjugate an unarmed population
>>> > doesn't mean the certainty of genocide. Weak argument IMHO.
>>> Like it or not, Snopes is disagreeing with your implied premise: that if
>>> we have universal background checks, the government will soon enslave
>>> all Americans - or whatever you really mean.
>>>
>>> Governments have not enslaved all Canadians, British, Irish, French,
>>> Norwegians, Spanish, etc. etc. And as a further detail, a background
>>> check is not the same as a gun registration.
>>>
>>> As it is now in the U.S., a confirmed psychopathic sadist can easily and
>>> legally buy a gun. In many states he can carry it almost anywhere
>>> without a permit. In many, he doesn't even have to tell a cop he's
>>> carrying one if a cop stops him for some reason.
>>>
>>> Does this sound perfectly logical? Gosh, how could anything go wrong?
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>> It seems to me that Andrew, Johnny, and tommy are all of the same ilk that a few dozen dead children from a school shooting every once in a while are an acceptable price to pay in order to keep unfettered access to fully automatic weapons with high capacity magazines so pot-bellied militia wannbes can play rambo. The 'most notorious left-wing spin organization >snopes' comment is a dead give away (pun intended).
>
>(:-)
>Well lets see. I showed records that demonstrated that somr 500 had
>been killed in what was it? 72 years? of Mass shootings and 50,000
>killed on bicycles during the same period.
>
>And as for "unfettered access to fully automatic weapons"? Nope, not
>in the U.S. since 1934 with the National Firearms Law (or whatever it
>was called) as for the big magazines, well, yes today. But they were
>banned from 1994 until 2004 and the results of the ban was:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban
>A 2017 review found that there was no evidence that ban had a
>significant effect on firearm homicides.
>A 2014 study found no impacts on homicide rates with an assault weapon
>ban.[29] A 2014 book published by Oxford University Press noted that
>"There is no compelling evidence that [the ban] saved lives."[30][31]
>In 2004, a research report commissioned by the National Institute of
>Justice found that if the ban was renewed, the effects on gun violence
>would likely be small and perhaps too small for reliable measurement

An addition to the above Frank challenged me to compare firearm deaths
in Canada with Vermont which has almost unfettered gun access and very
low gun deaths. So Canada - 1.6/100,000, Vermont - 1.3.

So much for Franks's arguments.

Some day y'all are going to wake up to the fact that "guns don't kill
people, people kill people". Or perhaps not as it is so easy to deny
reality.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/9/2022 2:54 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:

<snip>

> No. Wrong again Tommy. I have college degrees in Accounting. Not Economics. I took several Economics classes in college while earning my degrees though. Took other non business major classes too. Part of the college philosophy to make its graduates well rounded people.

Even in engineering we were required to take humanities courses. You are
spot-on with the philosophy of the effort by at least some universities
to make graduates "well-rounded."

Part of a university education is to learn critical thinking skills. In
Texas, the State Republican Party actually had a plank in their platform
that was against teaching critical thinking skills, for obvious reasons
<https://www.austinchronicle.com/daily/news/2012-06-27/gop-opposes-critical-thinking/>.

As Donald Trump stated: "We won with the poorly educated. I love the
poorly educated." The last thing Trump wants is educated voters with
critical thinking skills.

On 3/9/2022 6:34 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 06:17:57 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 14:17:06 -0800 (PST), James Carrington
>> <jhcjrx@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 4:16:17 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 3/9/2022 2:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 3/9/2022 11:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 8:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the laws and policies of the nation were out of step
>>>>>>> with the values of the population generally, they would be
>>>>>>> changed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK. As a first step, a large majority of Americans is in
>>>>>> favor of universal background checks before buying guns.
>>>>>> That's true even of NRA members. Can we start there?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/views-on-gun-policy/psdt_2017-06-22-guns-05-10/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As with the vigorous debate around the 1968 firearms act, ideas which
>>>>> seemed sensible at first were stricken as people thought further about
>>>>> the follow on effects.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pointedly, a licensed FFL dealer must keep paper records which can be
>>>>> retrieved with a warrant in a criminal investigation (I think that's
>>>>> unreasonable but I wasn't in Congress at the time and one asked me. It
>>>>> passed).
>>>>>
>>>>> What the Federal government cannot do is keep a national registration
>>>>> list. Sensible WWII veterans and survivors of world famous firearms
>>>>> registration schemes[1] were in Congress and knew that was an open
>>>>> invitation to disaster.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] https://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> Even the most notorious left-wing spin organization didn't dispute those
>>>>> facts:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/little-gun-history/
>>>>>
>>>>> Merely noting that the opportunity to subjugate an unarmed population
>>>>> doesn't mean the certainty of genocide. Weak argument IMHO.
>>>> Like it or not, Snopes is disagreeing with your implied premise: that if
>>>> we have universal background checks, the government will soon enslave
>>>> all Americans - or whatever you really mean.
>>>>
>>>> Governments have not enslaved all Canadians, British, Irish, French,
>>>> Norwegians, Spanish, etc. etc. And as a further detail, a background
>>>> check is not the same as a gun registration.
>>>>
>>>> As it is now in the U.S., a confirmed psychopathic sadist can easily and
>>>> legally buy a gun. In many states he can carry it almost anywhere
>>>> without a permit. In many, he doesn't even have to tell a cop he's
>>>> carrying one if a cop stops him for some reason.
>>>>
>>>> Does this sound perfectly logical? Gosh, how could anything go wrong?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> It seems to me that Andrew, Johnny, and tommy are all of the same ilk that a few dozen dead children from a school shooting every once in a while are an acceptable price to pay in order to keep unfettered access to fully automatic weapons with high capacity magazines so pot-bellied militia wannbes can play rambo. The 'most notorious left-wing spin organization >snopes' comment is a dead give away (pun intended).
>>
>> (:-)
>> Well lets see. I showed records that demonstrated that somr 500 had
>> been killed in what was it? 72 years? of Mass shootings and 50,000
>> killed on bicycles during the same period.
>>
>> And as for "unfettered access to fully automatic weapons"? Nope, not
>> in the U.S. since 1934 with the National Firearms Law (or whatever it
>> was called) as for the big magazines, well, yes today. But they were
>> banned from 1994 until 2004 and the results of the ban was:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban
>> A 2017 review found that there was no evidence that ban had a
>> significant effect on firearm homicides.
>> A 2014 study found no impacts on homicide rates with an assault weapon
>> ban.[29] A 2014 book published by Oxford University Press noted that
>> "There is no compelling evidence that [the ban] saved lives."[30][31]
>> In 2004, a research report commissioned by the National Institute of
>> Justice found that if the ban was renewed, the effects on gun violence
>> would likely be small and perhaps too small for reliable measurement
>
>
> An addition to the above Frank challenged me to compare firearm deaths
> in Canada with Vermont which has almost unfettered gun access and very
> low gun deaths. So Canada - 1.6/100,000, Vermont - 1.3.

Don't cheat, John! If you're going to limit the U.S. data to just one
state, for honesty you should limit the Canadian data to one adjacent
province.

From
https://www.statista.com/statistics/433663/number-of-homicides-in-canada-by-province/,
87 gun deaths in all of Quebec province. The province's population is
8.5 million. That works out to 1.0 gun death per 100,000 population.
It's less than Vermont's 1.3 per 100,000.

Or for another honest comparison, let's look at total Canada data and
total U.S. data.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country
says Canada is at 2.05 gun deaths per 100,000 population. The U.S. is at
12.21 gun deaths per 100,000. The nation to nation comparison says the
U.S. is about six times worse.

> So much for Franks's arguments.

No, so much for John's honesty.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>>>
>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>
>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>
>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>>> for those over 60.
>>>
>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>
>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>
>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>>>
>>> Or what?
>>
>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>> and the society.
>
> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
> I'll give you...".

I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.

Sheesh!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/9/2022 8:42 PM, sms wrote:
> On 3/9/2022 2:54 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> No. Wrong again Tommy. I have college degrees in
>> Accounting. Not Economics. I took several Economics
>> classes in college while earning my degrees though. Took
>> other non business major classes too. Part of the college
>> philosophy to make its graduates well rounded people.
>
> Even in engineering we were required to take humanities
> courses. You are spot-on with the philosophy of the effort
> by at least some universities to make graduates "well-rounded."
>
> Part of a university education is to learn critical thinking
> skills. In Texas, the State Republican Party actually had a
> plank in their platform that was against teaching critical
> thinking skills, for obvious reasons
> <https://www.austinchronicle.com/daily/news/2012-06-27/gop-opposes-critical-thinking/>.
>
>
> As Donald Trump stated: "We won with the poorly educated. I
> love the poorly educated." The last thing Trump wants is
> educated voters with critical thinking skills.

As with many half baked and poorly composed policy drafts,
that 2012 item never made it through the Texas Statehouse.

I'm unfamiliar with that policy position in your link. But
it's likely one of several attempts to counter ideologies
such as 'critical race theory' which you may recall from
wading through John Rawls, Derrick Bell and their ilk, may
be many things but certainly not 'critical thinking'.

At any rate it's not law in Texas.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/9/2022 6:01 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 08:09:36 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> You left out the magnitudes larger numbers of enslaved and
>> murdered Christians in The Sudans, more voluminoulsy in
>> Nigeria, spreading rapidly in Francophone Africa. Americans
>> suffer very little in comparison and American victims come
>> in every shade, like Americans.
>
> Well, to be honest France is sort of hoisted on their own petard. They
> allowed those N. Africans into the country who were fleeing the
> "freedom fighters" in their own countries and now they have hoards of
> poorly educated, in some cases non-French speaking, unemployable
> savages in their country. What to do?
>
> As for these Jihads. Well, unfortunately many of them remember a bit
> of history. N. Africa under the French, Egypt under the English. The
> middle East under almost everyone. A common "slur" is to refer to
> White Folks as "Crusaders" who conquer and pretty much enslaved middle
> east people in the Name of a Jewish Prophet,
>
> Try going to any country that was a colony of any of the European
> nations and get the people to tell you what life was like under the
> xyz.
>
> Remember. History is written by the winners.

Of course, one can do that same exercise by visiting a Native American
reservation. The U.S. and Canada are definitely not without fault. And
although I've never been there, the same seems true in Australia's and
New Zealand's treatment of aboriginals. It's probably been going on
since mankind first existed.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/9/2022 10:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/9/2022 8:42 PM, sms wrote:
>>
>> Part of a university education is to learn critical thinking
>> skills. In Texas, the State Republican Party actually had a
>> plank in their platform that was against teaching critical
>> thinking skills, for obvious reasons
>> <https://www.austinchronicle.com/daily/news/2012-06-27/gop-opposes-critical-thinking/>.
>>
>>
>>
>> As Donald Trump stated: "We won with the poorly educated. I
>> love the poorly educated." The last thing Trump wants is
>> educated voters with critical thinking skills.
>
> As with many half baked and poorly composed policy drafts, that 2012
> item never made it through the Texas Statehouse.
>
> I'm unfamiliar with that policy position in your link. But it's likely
> one of several attempts to counter ideologies such as 'critical race
> theory' which you may recall from wading through John Rawls, Derrick
> Bell and their ilk, may be many things but certainly not 'critical
> thinking'.
>
> At any rate it's not law in Texas.

There are nut cases in both parties energetically spewing nonsense.

As I've said, I'm a big fan of normal curves, intelligently analyzed.
That usually means discarding the two tails and examining the means, the
modes, the majorities.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:29:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/9/2022 6:01 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 08:09:36 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> You left out the magnitudes larger numbers of enslaved and
>>> murdered Christians in The Sudans, more voluminoulsy in
>>> Nigeria, spreading rapidly in Francophone Africa. Americans
>>> suffer very little in comparison and American victims come
>>> in every shade, like Americans.
>>
>> Well, to be honest France is sort of hoisted on their own petard. They
>> allowed those N. Africans into the country who were fleeing the
>> "freedom fighters" in their own countries and now they have hoards of
>> poorly educated, in some cases non-French speaking, unemployable
>> savages in their country. What to do?
>>
>> As for these Jihads. Well, unfortunately many of them remember a bit
>> of history. N. Africa under the French, Egypt under the English. The
>> middle East under almost everyone. A common "slur" is to refer to
>> White Folks as "Crusaders" who conquer and pretty much enslaved middle
>> east people in the Name of a Jewish Prophet,
>>
>> Try going to any country that was a colony of any of the European
>> nations and get the people to tell you what life was like under the
>> xyz.
>>
>> Remember. History is written by the winners.
>
>Of course, one can do that same exercise by visiting a Native American
>reservation. The U.S. and Canada are definitely not without fault. And
>although I've never been there, the same seems true in Australia's and
>New Zealand's treatment of aboriginals. It's probably been going on
>since mankind first existed.

Of course it can. In fact it is a common factor in almost everyone's
everyday life.

Imagine someone walking down the street, 3 piece suit, tie and pocket
handkerchief. Now imagine a guy that obviously hasn't had a bath in
weeks. ripped, torn and filthy clothing 4 - 5 days growth of beard.
Who gets the quickest service at the Store?

Or one that Uncle Tom McCahill used to tell. If two cars, one a new
Cadillac and the other a 2 year old Rolls Royce roll up to the door of
a posh hotel on Miami Beach which one do the porters run to?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>
>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>>
>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>
>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>
>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>
>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>>>>
>>>> Or what?
>>>
>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>>> and the society.
>>
>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
>> I'll give you...".
>
>I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>
>Sheesh!

A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
some sort of "government" hospital.
--
Cheers,

John B.