On 3/11/2022 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 08:30:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 5:34:45 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 3/10/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:12:47 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>>>>>>>>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>>>>>>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Or what?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>>>>>>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>>>>>>>>>>> and the society.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
>>>>>>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
>>>>>>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
>>>>>>>>>> I'll give you...".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sheesh!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
>>>>>>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
>>>>>>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
>>>>>>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
>>>>>>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
>>>>>>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
>>>>>>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
>>>>>>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
>>>>>>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
>>>>>>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
>>>>>>> deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
>>>>>>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
>>>>>> Hospital, suggested fusing two vertebrae as a probably cure for his
>>>>>> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know what they are
>>>>>> talking about".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer work - he was
>>>>>> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he finally, after
>>>>>> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two vertebrae.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long time ago and
>>>>>> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He used to say
>>>>>> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As I noted, a mixed bag. My two Senators are as far apart
>>>>> politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
>>>>> this:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://revealnews.org/article/alarm-over-wisconsin-vas-troubles-follows-years-of-complaints/
>>>>
>>>> I read that reference and it seemed to me that it was largely about a
>>>> single individual, a "chief of staff, psychiatrist Dr. David Houlihan"
>>>> who seems to have subscribed substantial amounts of "opiates" and "bad
>>>> mouthed" those who "bad mouthed" him. But all of the complaints seem
>>>> to come from non-medically qualified people. i.e., not other doctors
>>>> on the staff.
>>>>
>>>> Not to argue right or wrong, but I wonder what the patients had to
>>>> say?
>>>>
>>> The dead ones didn't have much to add. It seems, as with the
>>> Indian Health Service pederasts, that management knew they
>>> had a problem but between civil service rules and general
>>> cowardice, did nothing.
>>
>> Why would you suppose that VA patients or their survivors complaints don't seem valid to John? Not medically qualified? When you discover your father addicted to opiates in a VA hospital wouldn't you think that a valid complaint?
>
> But my point was, and is, nobody has asked the patients or their
> family what they think. It has all been 3rd party point their finger.
> And, very noticeably, Not Doctors.
>
> I knew a chap, for example, who was in such pain for about the last
> six months of his life that the doctors prescribed enough "whatever"
> to keep him painless. And, of course more or less unconscious. Was
> that the wrong thing to do? Should they left him fully conscious
> screaming in pain? I can tell you that his wife thanked the doctor.
>
> My grandmother, my mother's mother, was in such severe pain from
> cancer that she was sedated for several months there at the end.Her
> three daughters agreed completely with that treatment.
>
> I'm not arguing pro or con here, I'm simply saying that no one who is
> pointing their finger seems to actually know the why's and wherefore's
> of the situation.
>

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 19:44:48 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/11/2022 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 08:30:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 5:34:45 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 3/10/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:12:47 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or what?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>>>>>>>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>>>>>>>>>>>> and the society.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
>>>>>>>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
>>>>>>>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
>>>>>>>>>>> I'll give you...".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sheesh!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
>>>>>>>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
>>>>>>>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
>>>>>>>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
>>>>>>>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
>>>>>>>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
>>>>>>>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
>>>>>>>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
>>>>>>>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
>>>>>>>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
>>>>>>>> deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
>>>>>>>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
>>>>>>> Hospital, suggested fusing two vertebrae as a probably cure for his
>>>>>>> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know what they are
>>>>>>> talking about".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer work - he was
>>>>>>> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he finally, after
>>>>>>> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two vertebrae.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long time ago and
>>>>>>> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He used to say
>>>>>>> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I noted, a mixed bag. My two Senators are as far apart
>>>>>> politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://revealnews.org/article/alarm-over-wisconsin-vas-troubles-follows-years-of-complaints/
>>>>>
>>>>> I read that reference and it seemed to me that it was largely about a
>>>>> single individual, a "chief of staff, psychiatrist Dr. David Houlihan"
>>>>> who seems to have subscribed substantial amounts of "opiates" and "bad
>>>>> mouthed" those who "bad mouthed" him. But all of the complaints seem
>>>>> to come from non-medically qualified people. i.e., not other doctors
>>>>> on the staff.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not to argue right or wrong, but I wonder what the patients had to
>>>>> say?
>>>>>
>>>> The dead ones didn't have much to add. It seems, as with the
>>>> Indian Health Service pederasts, that management knew they
>>>> had a problem but between civil service rules and general
>>>> cowardice, did nothing.
>>>
>>> Why would you suppose that VA patients or their survivors complaints don't seem valid to John? Not medically qualified? When you discover your father addicted to opiates in a VA hospital wouldn't you think that a valid complaint?
>>
>> But my point was, and is, nobody has asked the patients or their
>> family what they think. It has all been 3rd party point their finger.
>> And, very noticeably, Not Doctors.
>>
>> I knew a chap, for example, who was in such pain for about the last
>> six months of his life that the doctors prescribed enough "whatever"
>> to keep him painless. And, of course more or less unconscious. Was
>> that the wrong thing to do? Should they left him fully conscious
>> screaming in pain? I can tell you that his wife thanked the doctor.
>>
>> My grandmother, my mother's mother, was in such severe pain from
>> cancer that she was sedated for several months there at the end.Her
>> three daughters agreed completely with that treatment.
>>
>> I'm not arguing pro or con here, I'm simply saying that no one who is
>> pointing their finger seems to actually know the why's and wherefore's
>> of the situation.
>>
>
>I don't know but I'm sympathetic to your line of thinking.
>
>Sadly, some elderly and infirm, at death's door and in
>constant pain, will refuse opiates for risk of addiction.
>WTF? You're not going out dancing Saturday night. The
>choice was death in pain or death in less pain.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 19:42:34 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/11/2022 6:49 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 07:49:56 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/10/2022 10:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:34:40 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/10/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:12:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or what?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>>>>>>>>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the society.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
>>>>>>>>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
>>>>>>>>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll give you...".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sheesh!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
>>>>>>>>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
>>>>>>>>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
>>>>>>>>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
>>>>>>>>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
>>>>>>>>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
>>>>>>>>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
>>>>>>>>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
>>>>>>>>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
>>>>>>>>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
>>>>>>>>> deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
>>>>>>>>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
>>>>>>>> Hospital, suggested fusing two vertebrae as a probably cure for his
>>>>>>>> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know what they are
>>>>>>>> talking about".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer work - he was
>>>>>>>> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he finally, after
>>>>>>>> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two vertebrae.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long time ago and
>>>>>>>> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He used to say
>>>>>>>> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I noted, a mixed bag. My two Senators are as far apart
>>>>>>> politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
>>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://revealnews.org/article/alarm-over-wisconsin-vas-troubles-follows-years-of-complaints/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I read that reference and it seemed to me that it was largely about a
>>>>>> single individual, a "chief of staff, psychiatrist Dr. David Houlihan"
>>>>>> who seems to have subscribed substantial amounts of "opiates" and "bad
>>>>>> mouthed" those who "bad mouthed" him. But all of the complaints seem
>>>>>> to come from non-medically qualified people. i.e., not other doctors
>>>>>> on the staff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not to argue right or wrong, but I wonder what the patients had to
>>>>>> say?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The dead ones didn't have much to add. It seems, as with the
>>>>> Indian Health Service pederasts, that management knew they
>>>>> had a problem but between civil service rules and general
>>>>> cowardice, did nothing.
>>>>
>>>> Indian Health? I thought it was a VA Hospital (:-)
>>>>
>>>> But as I said, did anyone ask the patients? Or the patients families?
>>>> Not really an argument but what was the result of this "excess
>>>> medication" to the patient or his or her's family?
>>>>
>>>> Yes the article mentions "overdose" but an "overdose" is "more then
>>>> the prescribed dose", is it not.
>>>>
>>>> But, more to the point, read the actual I.G. Report. It reads to me,
>>>> at least, like a bunch of disgruntled pharmacist who made a loud noise
>>>> about what the doctor was prescribing.
>>>>
>>>> But, more to the point, the Summations and Conclusions of the report
>>>> state:
>>>>
>>>> "We did not substantiate the majority of the allegations ,made in the
>>>> various complaints received... and... "Although allegations dealing
>>>> with overuse of narcotics at the facility may have some merit they do
>>>> not constitute evidence of wrongdoing. We did not find any conclusive
>>>> evidence affirming criminal activity, gross clinical incompetence or
>>>> negligence or administrative practices illegal or violated personnel
>>>> policies".
>>>>
>>> Here's what DVA says :
>>> https://www.disabledveterans.org/2015/02/25/wisconsin-va-opioid-scandal-hits-national-news/
>>
>> Yup, I read that and there is a certain amount of "Oh My God! Ain't It
>> Awful!" written there. One Veteran was described as " taking over one
>> dozen drugs" Oh! My! Goodness!
>>
>> But right now, today, I am taking 9 pills in the morning, 3 after
>> supper and 2 before I go to bed at night. For 3 different physical
>> problems.
>>
>> But, more to the point, has anyone asked the patients what they think.
>> Or their parents, wife, etc?
>>
>
>I don't know the particulars but it garnered a lot of
>attention at the time.

On 3/11/2022 8:21 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 19:42:34 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 3/11/2022 6:49 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 07:49:56 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/10/2022 10:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:34:40 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:12:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or what?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the society.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll give you...".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sheesh!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
>>>>>>>>>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
>>>>>>>>>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
>>>>>>>>>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
>>>>>>>>>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
>>>>>>>>>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
>>>>>>>>>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
>>>>>>>>>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
>>>>>>>>>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
>>>>>>>>>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
>>>>>>>>>> deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
>>>>>>>>>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
>>>>>>>>> Hospital, suggested fusing two vertebrae as a probably cure for his
>>>>>>>>> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know what they are
>>>>>>>>> talking about".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer work - he was
>>>>>>>>> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he finally, after
>>>>>>>>> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two vertebrae.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long time ago and
>>>>>>>>> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He used to say
>>>>>>>>> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As I noted, a mixed bag. My two Senators are as far apart
>>>>>>>> politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
>>>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://revealnews.org/article/alarm-over-wisconsin-vas-troubles-follows-years-of-complaints/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I read that reference and it seemed to me that it was largely about a
>>>>>>> single individual, a "chief of staff, psychiatrist Dr. David Houlihan"
>>>>>>> who seems to have subscribed substantial amounts of "opiates" and "bad
>>>>>>> mouthed" those who "bad mouthed" him. But all of the complaints seem
>>>>>>> to come from non-medically qualified people. i.e., not other doctors
>>>>>>> on the staff.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not to argue right or wrong, but I wonder what the patients had to
>>>>>>> say?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The dead ones didn't have much to add. It seems, as with the
>>>>>> Indian Health Service pederasts, that management knew they
>>>>>> had a problem but between civil service rules and general
>>>>>> cowardice, did nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indian Health? I thought it was a VA Hospital (:-)
>>>>>
>>>>> But as I said, did anyone ask the patients? Or the patients families?
>>>>> Not really an argument but what was the result of this "excess
>>>>> medication" to the patient or his or her's family?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes the article mentions "overdose" but an "overdose" is "more then
>>>>> the prescribed dose", is it not.
>>>>>
>>>>> But, more to the point, read the actual I.G. Report. It reads to me,
>>>>> at least, like a bunch of disgruntled pharmacist who made a loud noise
>>>>> about what the doctor was prescribing.
>>>>>
>>>>> But, more to the point, the Summations and Conclusions of the report
>>>>> state:
>>>>>
>>>>> "We did not substantiate the majority of the allegations ,made in the
>>>>> various complaints received... and... "Although allegations dealing
>>>>> with overuse of narcotics at the facility may have some merit they do
>>>>> not constitute evidence of wrongdoing. We did not find any conclusive
>>>>> evidence affirming criminal activity, gross clinical incompetence or
>>>>> negligence or administrative practices illegal or violated personnel
>>>>> policies".
>>>>>
>>>> Here's what DVA says :
>>>> https://www.disabledveterans.org/2015/02/25/wisconsin-va-opioid-scandal-hits-national-news/
>>>
>>> Yup, I read that and there is a certain amount of "Oh My God! Ain't It
>>> Awful!" written there. One Veteran was described as " taking over one
>>> dozen drugs" Oh! My! Goodness!
>>>
>>> But right now, today, I am taking 9 pills in the morning, 3 after
>>> supper and 2 before I go to bed at night. For 3 different physical
>>> problems.
>>>
>>> But, more to the point, has anyone asked the patients what they think.
>>> Or their parents, wife, etc?
>>>
>>
>> I don't know the particulars but it garnered a lot of
>> attention at the time.
>
> Yes, these things often do. I read AlJazeera news which seems to
> report facts but usually presents them in a very partial manner. I
> read about The U.S. saying hat they wouldn't buy crude from Russia.
> The news articles made it sound like this would be a major happening -
> "We'll get them Ruskies!"
>
> I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S. gets from
> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what the Russians
> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for the News".
>

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 22:00:35 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/11/2022 8:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 19:42:34 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/11/2022 6:49 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 07:49:56 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/10/2022 10:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:34:40 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:12:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or what?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the society.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll give you...".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sheesh!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
>>>>>>>>>>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
>>>>>>>>>>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
>>>>>>>>>>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
>>>>>>>>>>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
>>>>>>>>>>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
>>>>>>>>>>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
>>>>>>>>>>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
>>>>>>>>>>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
>>>>>>>>>>> deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
>>>>>>>>>>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
>>>>>>>>>> Hospital, suggested fusing two vertebrae as a probably cure for his
>>>>>>>>>> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know what they are
>>>>>>>>>> talking about".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer work - he was
>>>>>>>>>> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he finally, after
>>>>>>>>>> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two vertebrae.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long time ago and
>>>>>>>>>> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He used to say
>>>>>>>>>> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As I noted, a mixed bag. My two Senators are as far apart
>>>>>>>>> politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
>>>>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://revealnews.org/article/alarm-over-wisconsin-vas-troubles-follows-years-of-complaints/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I read that reference and it seemed to me that it was largely about a
>>>>>>>> single individual, a "chief of staff, psychiatrist Dr. David Houlihan"
>>>>>>>> who seems to have subscribed substantial amounts of "opiates" and "bad
>>>>>>>> mouthed" those who "bad mouthed" him. But all of the complaints seem
>>>>>>>> to come from non-medically qualified people. i.e., not other doctors
>>>>>>>> on the staff.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not to argue right or wrong, but I wonder what the patients had to
>>>>>>>> say?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The dead ones didn't have much to add. It seems, as with the
>>>>>>> Indian Health Service pederasts, that management knew they
>>>>>>> had a problem but between civil service rules and general
>>>>>>> cowardice, did nothing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indian Health? I thought it was a VA Hospital (:-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But as I said, did anyone ask the patients? Or the patients families?
>>>>>> Not really an argument but what was the result of this "excess
>>>>>> medication" to the patient or his or her's family?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes the article mentions "overdose" but an "overdose" is "more then
>>>>>> the prescribed dose", is it not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But, more to the point, read the actual I.G. Report. It reads to me,
>>>>>> at least, like a bunch of disgruntled pharmacist who made a loud noise
>>>>>> about what the doctor was prescribing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But, more to the point, the Summations and Conclusions of the report
>>>>>> state:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "We did not substantiate the majority of the allegations ,made in the
>>>>>> various complaints received... and... "Although allegations dealing
>>>>>> with overuse of narcotics at the facility may have some merit they do
>>>>>> not constitute evidence of wrongdoing. We did not find any conclusive
>>>>>> evidence affirming criminal activity, gross clinical incompetence or
>>>>>> negligence or administrative practices illegal or violated personnel
>>>>>> policies".
>>>>>>
>>>>> Here's what DVA says :
>>>>> https://www.disabledveterans.org/2015/02/25/wisconsin-va-opioid-scandal-hits-national-news/
>>>>
>>>> Yup, I read that and there is a certain amount of "Oh My God! Ain't It
>>>> Awful!" written there. One Veteran was described as " taking over one
>>>> dozen drugs" Oh! My! Goodness!
>>>>
>>>> But right now, today, I am taking 9 pills in the morning, 3 after
>>>> supper and 2 before I go to bed at night. For 3 different physical
>>>> problems.
>>>>
>>>> But, more to the point, has anyone asked the patients what they think.
>>>> Or their parents, wife, etc?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know the particulars but it garnered a lot of
>>> attention at the time.
>>
>> Yes, these things often do. I read AlJazeera news which seems to
>> report facts but usually presents them in a very partial manner. I
>> read about The U.S. saying hat they wouldn't buy crude from Russia.
>> The news articles made it sound like this would be a major happening -
>> "We'll get them Ruskies!"
>>
>> I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S. gets from
>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what the Russians
>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for the News".
>>
>
>And the Treasury Department quietly released their position
>on that late Friday afternoon (classic hiding-in-plain-sight
>technique). There are no barriers to Russian oil imports
>which are as you note not of significant volume anyway
>(unless one lives in Boston where Pennsylvania oil and gas
>are so close and yet so far [1]).
>
>Nor are there stops on cash flows in or out of Russia and
>Russian banks. The radio news just replays the 45-1/2th
>President blathering about 'severe sanctions' which isn't true.
>
>[1] Pennsylvania has the 4th largest volume natural gas
>reserves on earth. NY State not only doesn't allow energy
>extraction on their side of the border in the same
>formation, but also forbids pipelines across NY. That policy
>came from the former Governor's Energy Consultant, major
>campaign contributor and part-time oil geologist Yoko Ono.
>The present Governor has made no changes to that policy and
>will not.

On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 7:50:03 AM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/10/2022 10:19 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:34:40 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 3/10/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:12:47 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties..
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
> >>>>>>>>>>> for those over 60.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
> >>>>>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Or what?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
> >>>>>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
> >>>>>>>>>> and the society.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
> >>>>>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
> >>>>>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
> >>>>>>>>> I'll give you...".
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Sheesh!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
> >>>>>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
> >>>>>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
> >>>>>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
> >>>>>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
> >>>>>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
> >>>>>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
> >>>>>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
> >>>>>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
> >>>>>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
> >>>>>> deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
> >>>>>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
> >>>>> Hospital, suggested fusing two vertebrae as a probably cure for his
> >>>>> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know what they are
> >>>>> talking about".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer work - he was
> >>>>> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he finally, after
> >>>>> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two vertebrae.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long time ago and
> >>>>> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He used to say
> >>>>> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> As I noted, a mixed bag. My two Senators are as far apart
> >>>> politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
> >>>> this:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://revealnews.org/article/alarm-over-wisconsin-vas-troubles-follows-years-of-complaints/
> >>>
> >>> I read that reference and it seemed to me that it was largely about a
> >>> single individual, a "chief of staff, psychiatrist Dr. David Houlihan"
> >>> who seems to have subscribed substantial amounts of "opiates" and "bad
> >>> mouthed" those who "bad mouthed" him. But all of the complaints seem
> >>> to come from non-medically qualified people. i.e., not other doctors
> >>> on the staff.
> >>>
> >>> Not to argue right or wrong, but I wonder what the patients had to
> >>> say?
> >>>
> >>
> >> The dead ones didn't have much to add. It seems, as with the
> >> Indian Health Service pederasts, that management knew they
> >> had a problem but between civil service rules and general
> >> cowardice, did nothing.
> >
> > Indian Health? I thought it was a VA Hospital (:-)
> >
> > But as I said, did anyone ask the patients? Or the patients families?
> > Not really an argument but what was the result of this "excess
> > medication" to the patient or his or her's family?
> >
> > Yes the article mentions "overdose" but an "overdose" is "more then
> > the prescribed dose", is it not.
> >
> > But, more to the point, read the actual I.G. Report. It reads to me,
> > at least, like a bunch of disgruntled pharmacist who made a loud noise
> > about what the doctor was prescribing.
> >
> > But, more to the point, the Summations and Conclusions of the report
> > state:
> >
> > "We did not substantiate the majority of the allegations ,made in the
> > various complaints received... and... "Although allegations dealing
> > with overuse of narcotics at the facility may have some merit they do
> > not constitute evidence of wrongdoing. We did not find any conclusive
> > evidence affirming criminal activity, gross clinical incompetence or
> > negligence or administrative practices illegal or violated personnel
> > policies".
> >
> Here's what DVA says :
> https://www.disabledveterans.org/2015/02/25/wisconsin-va-opioid-scandal-hits-national-news/
>
> "Houlihan was previously admonished by the State of Iowa
> some years prior to moving to Tomah for inappropriate
> relationships with patients. VA apparently thought it was
> wise to hire him into the Tomah VA facility."

Am 12.03.2022 um 06:17 schrieb John B.:
> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 22:00:35 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 3/11/2022 8:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 19:42:34 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/11/2022 6:49 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 07:49:56 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 10:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:34:40 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:12:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or what?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the society.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll give you...".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sheesh!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
>>>>>>>>>>>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
>>>>>>>>>>>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
>>>>>>>>>>>> deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
>>>>>>>>>>>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
>>>>>>>>>>> Hospital, suggested fusing two vertebrae as a probably cure for his
>>>>>>>>>>> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know what they are
>>>>>>>>>>> talking about".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer work - he was
>>>>>>>>>>> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he finally, after
>>>>>>>>>>> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two vertebrae.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long time ago and
>>>>>>>>>>> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He used to say
>>>>>>>>>>> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As I noted, a mixed bag. My two Senators are as far apart
>>>>>>>>>> politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
>>>>>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://revealnews.org/article/alarm-over-wisconsin-vas-troubles-follows-years-of-complaints/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I read that reference and it seemed to me that it was largely about a
>>>>>>>>> single individual, a "chief of staff, psychiatrist Dr. David Houlihan"
>>>>>>>>> who seems to have subscribed substantial amounts of "opiates" and "bad
>>>>>>>>> mouthed" those who "bad mouthed" him. But all of the complaints seem
>>>>>>>>> to come from non-medically qualified people. i.e., not other doctors
>>>>>>>>> on the staff.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not to argue right or wrong, but I wonder what the patients had to
>>>>>>>>> say?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The dead ones didn't have much to add. It seems, as with the
>>>>>>>> Indian Health Service pederasts, that management knew they
>>>>>>>> had a problem but between civil service rules and general
>>>>>>>> cowardice, did nothing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indian Health? I thought it was a VA Hospital (:-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But as I said, did anyone ask the patients? Or the patients families?
>>>>>>> Not really an argument but what was the result of this "excess
>>>>>>> medication" to the patient or his or her's family?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes the article mentions "overdose" but an "overdose" is "more then
>>>>>>> the prescribed dose", is it not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But, more to the point, read the actual I.G. Report. It reads to me,
>>>>>>> at least, like a bunch of disgruntled pharmacist who made a loud noise
>>>>>>> about what the doctor was prescribing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But, more to the point, the Summations and Conclusions of the report
>>>>>>> state:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "We did not substantiate the majority of the allegations ,made in the
>>>>>>> various complaints received... and... "Although allegations dealing
>>>>>>> with overuse of narcotics at the facility may have some merit they do
>>>>>>> not constitute evidence of wrongdoing. We did not find any conclusive
>>>>>>> evidence affirming criminal activity, gross clinical incompetence or
>>>>>>> negligence or administrative practices illegal or violated personnel
>>>>>>> policies".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's what DVA says :
>>>>>> https://www.disabledveterans.org/2015/02/25/wisconsin-va-opioid-scandal-hits-national-news/
>>>>>
>>>>> Yup, I read that and there is a certain amount of "Oh My God! Ain't It
>>>>> Awful!" written there. One Veteran was described as " taking over one
>>>>> dozen drugs" Oh! My! Goodness!
>>>>>
>>>>> But right now, today, I am taking 9 pills in the morning, 3 after
>>>>> supper and 2 before I go to bed at night. For 3 different physical
>>>>> problems.
>>>>>
>>>>> But, more to the point, has anyone asked the patients what they think.
>>>>> Or their parents, wife, etc?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't know the particulars but it garnered a lot of
>>>> attention at the time.
>>>
>>> Yes, these things often do. I read AlJazeera news which seems to
>>> report facts but usually presents them in a very partial manner. I
>>> read about The U.S. saying hat they wouldn't buy crude from Russia.
>>> The news articles made it sound like this would be a major happening -
>>> "We'll get them Ruskies!"
>>>
>>> I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S. gets from
>>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what the Russians
>>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for the News".
>>>
>> Nor are there stops on cash flows in or out of Russia and
>> Russian banks. The radio news just replays the 45-1/2th
>> President blathering about 'severe sanctions' which isn't true.
>
> Added to that I just read that Germany refused to have anything to do
> with The U.S. fuel scheme. And, I suspect that the rest of Europe will
> follow. See
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1201743/russian-gas-dependence-in-europe-by-country/

On 3/12/2022 5:05 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 12.03.2022 um 06:17 schrieb John B.:
>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 22:00:35 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/11/2022 8:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 19:42:34 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/11/2022 6:49 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 07:49:56 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 10:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:34:40 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:12:47 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but upthread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> concentrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tend to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using any one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rates,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states tend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> election of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only 1,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with poorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parties.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Security,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> food and housing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> memory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> U.S., and free
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Security, etc., are not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> citizens?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or what?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> true in most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the citizenry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the society.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussed.I stated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Public." and that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Elect me and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll give you...".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sheesh!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what might be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an uncle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe, was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
>>>>>>>>>>>>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
>>>>>>>>>>>>> deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
>>>>>>>>>>>>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hospital, suggested fusing two  vertebrae as a probably cure
>>>>>>>>>>>> for his
>>>>>>>>>>>> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know what
>>>>>>>>>>>> they are
>>>>>>>>>>>> talking about".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer work
>>>>>>>>>>>> - he was
>>>>>>>>>>>> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he
>>>>>>>>>>>> finally, after
>>>>>>>>>>>> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two
>>>>>>>>>>>> vertebrae.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long
>>>>>>>>>>>> time ago and
>>>>>>>>>>>> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He
>>>>>>>>>>>> used to say
>>>>>>>>>>>> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As I noted, a mixed bag.  My two Senators are as far apart
>>>>>>>>>>> politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
>>>>>>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://revealnews.org/article/alarm-over-wisconsin-vas-troubles-follows-years-of-complaints/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I read that reference and it seemed to me that it was largely
>>>>>>>>>> about a
>>>>>>>>>> single individual, a "chief of staff, psychiatrist Dr. David
>>>>>>>>>> Houlihan"
>>>>>>>>>> who seems to have subscribed substantial amounts of "opiates"
>>>>>>>>>> and "bad
>>>>>>>>>> mouthed" those who "bad mouthed" him. But all of the
>>>>>>>>>> complaints seem
>>>>>>>>>> to come from non-medically qualified people. i.e., not other
>>>>>>>>>> doctors
>>>>>>>>>> on the staff.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not to argue right or wrong, but I wonder what the patients
>>>>>>>>>> had to
>>>>>>>>>> say?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The dead ones didn't have much to add. It seems, as with the
>>>>>>>>> Indian Health Service pederasts, that management knew they
>>>>>>>>> had a problem but between civil service rules and general
>>>>>>>>> cowardice, did nothing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Indian Health? I thought it was  a VA Hospital (:-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But as I said, did anyone ask the patients? Or the patients
>>>>>>>> families?
>>>>>>>> Not really an argument but what was the result of this "excess
>>>>>>>> medication" to the patient or his or her's family?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes the article mentions "overdose" but an "overdose" is "more then
>>>>>>>> the prescribed dose", is it not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But, more to the point, read the actual I.G. Report. It reads to
>>>>>>>> me,
>>>>>>>> at least, like a bunch of disgruntled pharmacist who made a loud
>>>>>>>> noise
>>>>>>>> about what the doctor was prescribing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But, more to the point, the Summations and Conclusions of the
>>>>>>>> report
>>>>>>>> state:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "We did not substantiate the majority of the allegations ,made
>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>> various complaints received... and... "Although allegations dealing
>>>>>>>> with overuse of narcotics at the facility may have some merit
>>>>>>>> they do
>>>>>>>> not constitute evidence of wrongdoing. We did not find any
>>>>>>>> conclusive
>>>>>>>> evidence affirming criminal activity, gross clinical
>>>>>>>> incompetence or
>>>>>>>> negligence or administrative practices illegal or violated
>>>>>>>> personnel
>>>>>>>> policies".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here's what DVA says :
>>>>>>> https://www.disabledveterans.org/2015/02/25/wisconsin-va-opioid-scandal-hits-national-news/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yup, I read that and there is a certain amount of "Oh My God!
>>>>>> Ain't It
>>>>>> Awful!" written there. One Veteran was described as " taking over one
>>>>>> dozen drugs" Oh! My! Goodness!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But right now, today, I am taking 9 pills in the morning, 3 after
>>>>>> supper and 2 before I go to bed at night. For 3 different physical
>>>>>> problems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But, more to the point, has anyone asked the patients what they
>>>>>> think.
>>>>>> Or their parents, wife, etc?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know the particulars but it garnered a lot of
>>>>> attention at the time.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, these things often do. I read AlJazeera news which seems to
>>>> report facts but usually presents them in a very partial manner. I
>>>> read about The U.S. saying hat they wouldn't buy crude from Russia.
>>>> The news articles made it sound like this would be a major happening -
>>>> "We'll get them Ruskies!"
>>>>
>>>>    I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S. gets from
>>>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what the Russians
>>>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for the News".
>>>>
>>> Nor are there stops on cash flows in or out of Russia and
>>> Russian banks. The radio news just replays the 45-1/2th
>>> President blathering about 'severe sanctions' which isn't true.
>>
>> Added to that I just read that Germany refused to have anything to do
>> with The U.S. fuel scheme. And, I suspect that the rest of Europe will
>> follow. See
>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1201743/russian-gas-dependence-in-europe-by-country/
>>
>
> Actually, the EU-wide decision was to reduce volumes by 2/3 this year
> and go down to zero within 5 years.  This was aligned with the US.
>
> It's a difficult decision whether it's better to buy oil from Inran,
> Russia or Venezuela (supposedly the Iran sanctions were about to be
> lifted but with the invasion, Russia blocked their part of the deal).

On 3/11/2022 6:21 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S. gets from
> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what the Russians
> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for the News".

Also, there are currently 9,173 approved and available permits to drill
for oil on federal and Indian lands.

The oil companies decide whether, and when, it makes sense to use those
permits. They don't want to flood the market with oil, especially when
their existing wells, mainly in Alaska, are already not running at capacity.

It's absurd to blame the president, any president, for gasoline price
increases because they have almost no control over this. That said,
Trump, who denied military aid to Ukraine for personal political gain,
who cozied up to Putin, and who tried to weaken NATO, bears a lot of
responsibility for what is transpiring in Ukraine right now.

I don't like the high gas prices any more than anyone, but think of what
the people in Ukraine are going through.

On 3/12/2022 2:44 PM, sms wrote:
> On 3/11/2022 6:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>   I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S. gets from
>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what the Russians
>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for the News".
>
> Also, there are currently 9,173 approved and available permits to drill
> for oil on federal and Indian lands.
>
> The oil companies decide whether, and when, it makes sense to use those
> permits. They don't want to flood the market with oil, especially when
> their existing wells, mainly in Alaska, are already not running at
> capacity.
>
> It's absurd to blame the president, any president, for gasoline price
> increases because they have almost no control over this. That said,
> Trump, who denied military aid to Ukraine for personal political gain,
> who cozied up to Putin, and who tried to weaken NATO, bears a lot of
> responsibility for what is transpiring in Ukraine right now.
>
> I don't like the high gas prices any more than anyone, but think of what
> the people in Ukraine are going through.

Some people have different priorities. See https://tinyurl.com/3c7x7y6c

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/12/2022 1:44 PM, sms wrote:
> On 3/11/2022 6:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S.
>> gets from
>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what
>> the Russians
>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for
>> the News".
>
> Also, there are currently 9,173 approved and available
> permits to drill for oil on federal and Indian lands.
>
> The oil companies decide whether, and when, it makes sense
> to use those permits. They don't want to flood the market
> with oil, especially when their existing wells, mainly in
> Alaska, are already not running at capacity.
>
> It's absurd to blame the president, any president, for
> gasoline price increases because they have almost no control
> over this. That said, Trump, who denied military aid to
> Ukraine for personal political gain, who cozied up to Putin,
> and who tried to weaken NATO, bears a lot of responsibility
> for what is transpiring in Ukraine right now.
>
> I don't like the high gas prices any more than anyone, but
> think of what the people in Ukraine are going through.
>

We agree there's no comparison between the suffering in
Ukraine and high fuel prices here which have exacerbated our
inflationary spiral.

Ms Psaki says high fuel pries are to be blamed on Mr Putin.
Here are some of the things Mr Putin forced Mr Biden to do:

https://americansforprosperity.org/biden-policies-raising-gas-prices/?utm_source=whatcounts&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ntlnewsletter220312

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/12/2022 2:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/12/2022 2:44 PM, sms wrote:
>> On 3/11/2022 6:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Â I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S.
>>> gets from
>>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what
>>> the Russians
>>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for
>>> the News".
>>
>> Also, there are currently 9,173 approved and available
>> permits to drill for oil on federal and Indian lands.
>>
>> The oil companies decide whether, and when, it makes sense
>> to use those permits. They don't want to flood the market
>> with oil, especially when their existing wells, mainly in
>> Alaska, are already not running at capacity.
>>
>> It's absurd to blame the president, any president, for
>> gasoline price increases because they have almost no
>> control over this. That said, Trump, who denied military
>> aid to Ukraine for personal political gain, who cozied up
>> to Putin, and who tried to weaken NATO, bears a lot of
>> responsibility for what is transpiring in Ukraine right now.
>>
>> I don't like the high gas prices any more than anyone, but
>> think of what the people in Ukraine are going through.
>
> Some people have different priorities. See
> https://tinyurl.com/3c7x7y6c
>
>

Cute but the destruction of Ukraine has piss-all to do with
US fuel prices, our inflation spiral and energy policy (or
lack thereof).

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 2:44:28 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/12/2022 1:44 PM, sms wrote:
> > On 3/11/2022 6:21 PM, John B. wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >> I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S.
> >> gets from
> >> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what
> >> the Russians
> >> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for
> >> the News".
> >
> > Also, there are currently 9,173 approved and available
> > permits to drill for oil on federal and Indian lands.
> >
> > The oil companies decide whether, and when, it makes sense
> > to use those permits. They don't want to flood the market
> > with oil, especially when their existing wells, mainly in
> > Alaska, are already not running at capacity.
> >
> > It's absurd to blame the president, any president, for
> > gasoline price increases because they have almost no control
> > over this. That said, Trump, who denied military aid to
> > Ukraine for personal political gain, who cozied up to Putin,
> > and who tried to weaken NATO, bears a lot of responsibility
> > for what is transpiring in Ukraine right now.
> >
> > I don't like the high gas prices any more than anyone, but
> > think of what the people in Ukraine are going through.
> >
> We agree there's no comparison between the suffering in
> Ukraine and high fuel prices here which have exacerbated our
> inflationary spiral.
>
> Ms Psaki says high fuel pries are to be blamed on Mr Putin.
> Here are some of the things Mr Putin forced Mr Biden to do:
>
> https://americansforprosperity.org/biden-policies-raising-gas-prices/?utm_source=whatcounts&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ntlnewsletter220312
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andy, your link above is one of Tommy's unbiased, neutral, honest sites. Ha Ha. Some examples from the article.

"Last spring, Biden signed a resolution that overturned Trump administration reforms to EPA oil and gas rules. This resolution will worsen energy poverty, reestablish burdensome regulations, and have a disproportionate impact on small businesses."
So Biden is reestablishing burdensome regulations, but Trump put in reforms? Anything biased there? The above quote is in a section talking about new regulations governing methane emissions. Its a crime to decrease methane.. We should have more methane. Andy, do you think it would be good if we sealed your shop and filled it with methane gas? Actually you can do that by removing the traps from your plumbing and letting the methane gas from the sewer system come back into your shop. Isn't methane good?

"The president also has rescinded Endangered Species Act reforms"
So they were reforms when Trump changed the Endangered Species Act laws. But bad Biden rescinded these reforms. And changed the laws BACK to saving endangered animals and plants.

"In April 2021, without the consent of Congress, Biden rejoined the Paris agreement, which will result in onerous new regulations that could raise energy costs."
Bad Biden joined up with them Frenchies again. France is evil. The USA should not do anything with the French. We should leave NATO and the G7. France is in them too. And the UN Security Council too. Bad France. Personally, I think its best to cooperate. Fighting and killing, as Russia is doing to Ukraine, is bad for everyone. Better to agree and work together. But this article is probably right. We should fight and kill and attack France and Europe. And leave NATO as Trump threatened to do numerous times. World would be much safer then.

"The EPA has issued a final rule to phase out a common, inexpensive refrigerant. This policy is a de facto tax on air conditioning and refrigeration."
Freon gas causes damage to the ozone, environment. Its being replaced with less dangerous gases. Kind of like lead was removed from gas back in the 1970s. And asbestos was removed as insulation a long time ago. I'd say these are improvements.

"In May 2021, Biden issued a sweeping executive order that mobilized federal agencies, including the Securities and Exchange Commission, to enforce mandates on businesses, insurers, retirement funds, and suppliers. These policies will stifle innovation critical to improving the environment and will increase costs for a wide variety of businesses."
This one is funny. Evil Biden is restricting and stifling "businesses, insurers, retirement funds, and suppliers" from improving the environment. That's rich.

"The Biden administration has changed key inputs for economic and regulatory analysis, including raising the “social cost” of greenhouse gases. These policies will mask the true consumer cost of regulatory actions."
Sounds like evil Biden is looking at how many people will be killed and how much damage the world will sustain instead of how much money my Republican Trump buddies can make/steal. Wow, that must be tragic.

"The EPA also has mandated that even facilities with reduced emissions must remain on the list of “major” sources, subjecting these facilities to permitting burdens and higher costs."
This one is rich too. So the writer of the article thinks people/facilities who follow the law, and reduce emissions, should be exempt from having to follow the law. Kind of like saying people who don't get speeding tickets, can speed and break the law when they want.

"The Build Back Better agenda includes new taxes on natural gas and home heating. It also includes new taxes on petroleum and manufacturing."
MT GOD!!!!!!!!!!! Trying to pass legislation that is actually paid for???????? What a crazy concept. Better to borrow borrow borrow like Reagan, Bush, Trump. And cut taxes too. BIGGER Federal deficits. NO NEW TAXES ever to pay for anything. Doesn't Biden know how to run a government? Borrow Borrow Borrow. Never ever ever tax anything.

On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 2:46:47 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/12/2022 2:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 3/12/2022 2:44 PM, sms wrote:
> >> On 3/11/2022 6:21 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >>> Â I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S.
> >>> gets from
> >>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what
> >>> the Russians
> >>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for
> >>> the News".
> >>
> >> Also, there are currently 9,173 approved and available
> >> permits to drill for oil on federal and Indian lands.
> >>
> >> The oil companies decide whether, and when, it makes sense
> >> to use those permits. They don't want to flood the market
> >> with oil, especially when their existing wells, mainly in
> >> Alaska, are already not running at capacity.
> >>
> >> It's absurd to blame the president, any president, for
> >> gasoline price increases because they have almost no
> >> control over this. That said, Trump, who denied military
> >> aid to Ukraine for personal political gain, who cozied up
> >> to Putin, and who tried to weaken NATO, bears a lot of
> >> responsibility for what is transpiring in Ukraine right now.
> >>
> >> I don't like the high gas prices any more than anyone, but
> >> think of what the people in Ukraine are going through.
> >
> > Some people have different priorities. See
> > https://tinyurl.com/3c7x7y6c
> >
> >
> Cute but the destruction of Ukraine has piss-all to do with
> US fuel prices, our inflation spiral and energy policy (or
> lack thereof).
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

February 24, Russia invaded Ukraine. West Texas oil was about $94.88 then. Now it is $109.09. $14 increase in three weeks. About 15% rise.

https://gasprices.aaa.com/
$4.326 current average gas price. $3.482 one month ago average price. 0.844 increase in one month. 24% increase in gas prices in one month.

I'd guess there is a real strong correlation with oil prices and gas prices and the invasion of Ukraine. Now I will agree that gas prices and oil prices have been trending upwards for the past 1 plus year. As the economy has improved over the past year and people are returning to normal livelihoods and driving more and more. Demand for gas and oil has increased considerably over the past year plus. Demand increases prices. At least that is what I learned in business school.

On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 11:44:09 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 3/11/2022 6:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S. gets from
>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what the Russians
>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for the News".
>
>Also, there are currently 9,173 approved and available permits to drill
>for oil on federal and Indian lands.
>
>The oil companies decide whether, and when, it makes sense to use those
>permits. They don't want to flood the market with oil, especially when
>their existing wells, mainly in Alaska, are already not running at capacity.
>
>It's absurd to blame the president, any president, for gasoline price
>increases because they have almost no control over this. That said,
>Trump, who denied military aid to Ukraine for personal political gain,
>who cozied up to Putin, and who tried to weaken NATO, bears a lot of
>responsibility for what is transpiring in Ukraine right now.
>
>I don't like the high gas prices any more than anyone, but think of what
>the people in Ukraine are going through.

That all sounds pretty logical but it certainly doesn't stand the
light of day for U.S. and European oil companies drilling in foreign
countries. Where, and I was there, they will drill anywhere the
seismic shows a possibility (and they can buy a lease) and if they
find oil they pump it just as fast as they can. It ain't called "Black
Gold" for nothing.

The difference, it seems, is largely in transportation costs. I was
told that for a well, in a remote area of Irian Jaya to be profitable
it had to produce 1,000 bbls a day and I've certainly heard of wells,
in the U.S. producing far less and still being used.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 14:44:24 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/12/2022 1:44 PM, sms wrote:
>> On 3/11/2022 6:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S.
>>> gets from
>>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what
>>> the Russians
>>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for
>>> the News".
>>
>> Also, there are currently 9,173 approved and available
>> permits to drill for oil on federal and Indian lands.
>>
>> The oil companies decide whether, and when, it makes sense
>> to use those permits. They don't want to flood the market
>> with oil, especially when their existing wells, mainly in
>> Alaska, are already not running at capacity.
>>
>> It's absurd to blame the president, any president, for
>> gasoline price increases because they have almost no control
>> over this. That said, Trump, who denied military aid to
>> Ukraine for personal political gain, who cozied up to Putin,
>> and who tried to weaken NATO, bears a lot of responsibility
>> for what is transpiring in Ukraine right now.
>>
>> I don't like the high gas prices any more than anyone, but
>> think of what the people in Ukraine are going through.
>>
>
>We agree there's no comparison between the suffering in
>Ukraine and high fuel prices here which have exacerbated our
>inflationary spiral.
>
>Ms Psaki says high fuel pries are to be blamed on Mr Putin.
>Here are some of the things Mr Putin forced Mr Biden to do:
>
>https://americansforprosperity.org/biden-policies-raising-gas-prices/?utm_source=whatcounts&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ntlnewsletter220312

Be honest. The price of gasoline in the U.S. is largely governed by
what U.S. citizens will pay. You want the price to go down? Just don't
buy the damned stuff.

But, Oh Yes, I forget. Y'all really do need those two cars to a
family, don't you.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 14:46:42 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/12/2022 2:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/12/2022 2:44 PM, sms wrote:
>>> On 3/11/2022 6:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> Â I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S.
>>>> gets from
>>>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what
>>>> the Russians
>>>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for
>>>> the News".
>>>
>>> Also, there are currently 9,173 approved and available
>>> permits to drill for oil on federal and Indian lands.
>>>
>>> The oil companies decide whether, and when, it makes sense
>>> to use those permits. They don't want to flood the market
>>> with oil, especially when their existing wells, mainly in
>>> Alaska, are already not running at capacity.
>>>
>>> It's absurd to blame the president, any president, for
>>> gasoline price increases because they have almost no
>>> control over this. That said, Trump, who denied military
>>> aid to Ukraine for personal political gain, who cozied up
>>> to Putin, and who tried to weaken NATO, bears a lot of
>>> responsibility for what is transpiring in Ukraine right now.
>>>
>>> I don't like the high gas prices any more than anyone, but
>>> think of what the people in Ukraine are going through.
>>
>> Some people have different priorities. See
>> https://tinyurl.com/3c7x7y6c
>>
>>
>
>Cute but the destruction of Ukraine has piss-all to do with
>US fuel prices, our inflation spiral and energy policy (or
>lack thereof).

I think that "Russian Oil" actually amount to something like 1% of
crude oil used in the U.S. and that could easily be replaced by oil
from S. American countries... well except I think y'all have some sort
of "pissing contest" going on with one of the larger oil producers
"down there".
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 11:05:55 +0100, Rolf Mantel
<news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:

>Am 12.03.2022 um 06:17 schrieb John B.:
>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 22:00:35 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/11/2022 8:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 19:42:34 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/11/2022 6:49 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 07:49:56 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 10:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:34:40 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:12:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or what?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the society.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll give you...".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sheesh!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
>>>>>>>>>>>>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
>>>>>>>>>>>>> deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
>>>>>>>>>>>>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hospital, suggested fusing two vertebrae as a probably cure for his
>>>>>>>>>>>> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know what they are
>>>>>>>>>>>> talking about".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer work - he was
>>>>>>>>>>>> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he finally, after
>>>>>>>>>>>> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two vertebrae.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long time ago and
>>>>>>>>>>>> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He used to say
>>>>>>>>>>>> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As I noted, a mixed bag. My two Senators are as far apart
>>>>>>>>>>> politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
>>>>>>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://revealnews.org/article/alarm-over-wisconsin-vas-troubles-follows-years-of-complaints/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I read that reference and it seemed to me that it was largely about a
>>>>>>>>>> single individual, a "chief of staff, psychiatrist Dr. David Houlihan"
>>>>>>>>>> who seems to have subscribed substantial amounts of "opiates" and "bad
>>>>>>>>>> mouthed" those who "bad mouthed" him. But all of the complaints seem
>>>>>>>>>> to come from non-medically qualified people. i.e., not other doctors
>>>>>>>>>> on the staff.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not to argue right or wrong, but I wonder what the patients had to
>>>>>>>>>> say?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The dead ones didn't have much to add. It seems, as with the
>>>>>>>>> Indian Health Service pederasts, that management knew they
>>>>>>>>> had a problem but between civil service rules and general
>>>>>>>>> cowardice, did nothing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Indian Health? I thought it was a VA Hospital (:-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But as I said, did anyone ask the patients? Or the patients families?
>>>>>>>> Not really an argument but what was the result of this "excess
>>>>>>>> medication" to the patient or his or her's family?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes the article mentions "overdose" but an "overdose" is "more then
>>>>>>>> the prescribed dose", is it not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But, more to the point, read the actual I.G. Report. It reads to me,
>>>>>>>> at least, like a bunch of disgruntled pharmacist who made a loud noise
>>>>>>>> about what the doctor was prescribing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But, more to the point, the Summations and Conclusions of the report
>>>>>>>> state:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "We did not substantiate the majority of the allegations ,made in the
>>>>>>>> various complaints received... and... "Although allegations dealing
>>>>>>>> with overuse of narcotics at the facility may have some merit they do
>>>>>>>> not constitute evidence of wrongdoing. We did not find any conclusive
>>>>>>>> evidence affirming criminal activity, gross clinical incompetence or
>>>>>>>> negligence or administrative practices illegal or violated personnel
>>>>>>>> policies".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here's what DVA says :
>>>>>>> https://www.disabledveterans.org/2015/02/25/wisconsin-va-opioid-scandal-hits-national-news/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yup, I read that and there is a certain amount of "Oh My God! Ain't It
>>>>>> Awful!" written there. One Veteran was described as " taking over one
>>>>>> dozen drugs" Oh! My! Goodness!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But right now, today, I am taking 9 pills in the morning, 3 after
>>>>>> supper and 2 before I go to bed at night. For 3 different physical
>>>>>> problems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But, more to the point, has anyone asked the patients what they think.
>>>>>> Or their parents, wife, etc?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know the particulars but it garnered a lot of
>>>>> attention at the time.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, these things often do. I read AlJazeera news which seems to
>>>> report facts but usually presents them in a very partial manner. I
>>>> read about The U.S. saying hat they wouldn't buy crude from Russia.
>>>> The news articles made it sound like this would be a major happening -
>>>> "We'll get them Ruskies!"
>>>>
>>>> I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S. gets from
>>>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what the Russians
>>>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for the News".
>>>>
>>> Nor are there stops on cash flows in or out of Russia and
>>> Russian banks. The radio news just replays the 45-1/2th
>>> President blathering about 'severe sanctions' which isn't true.
>>
>> Added to that I just read that Germany refused to have anything to do
>> with The U.S. fuel scheme. And, I suspect that the rest of Europe will
>> follow. See
>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1201743/russian-gas-dependence-in-europe-by-country/
>
>Actually, the EU-wide decision was to reduce volumes by 2/3 this year
>and go down to zero within 5 years. This was aligned with the US.
>
>It's a difficult decision whether it's better to buy oil from Inran,
>Russia or Venezuela (supposedly the Iran sanctions were about to be
>lifted but with the invasion, Russia blocked their part of the deal).
>
>Rolf
>

On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 14:42:24 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 2:46:47 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 3/12/2022 2:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > On 3/12/2022 2:44 PM, sms wrote:
>> >> On 3/11/2022 6:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>
>> >> <snip>
>> >>
>> >>> Â I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S.
>> >>> gets from
>> >>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what
>> >>> the Russians
>> >>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for
>> >>> the News".
>> >>
>> >> Also, there are currently 9,173 approved and available
>> >> permits to drill for oil on federal and Indian lands.
>> >>
>> >> The oil companies decide whether, and when, it makes sense
>> >> to use those permits. They don't want to flood the market
>> >> with oil, especially when their existing wells, mainly in
>> >> Alaska, are already not running at capacity.
>> >>
>> >> It's absurd to blame the president, any president, for
>> >> gasoline price increases because they have almost no
>> >> control over this. That said, Trump, who denied military
>> >> aid to Ukraine for personal political gain, who cozied up
>> >> to Putin, and who tried to weaken NATO, bears a lot of
>> >> responsibility for what is transpiring in Ukraine right now.
>> >>
>> >> I don't like the high gas prices any more than anyone, but
>> >> think of what the people in Ukraine are going through.
>> >
>> > Some people have different priorities. See
>> > https://tinyurl.com/3c7x7y6c
>> >
>> >
>> Cute but the destruction of Ukraine has piss-all to do with
>> US fuel prices, our inflation spiral and energy policy (or
>> lack thereof).
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
>February 24, Russia invaded Ukraine. West Texas oil was about $94.88 then. Now it is $109.09. $14 increase in three weeks. About 15% rise.
>
>https://gasprices.aaa.com/
>$4.326 current average gas price. $3.482 one month ago average price. 0.844 increase in one month. 24% increase in gas prices in one month.
>
>I'd guess there is a real strong correlation with oil prices and gas prices and the invasion of Ukraine. Now I will agree that gas prices and oil prices have been trending upwards for the past 1 plus year. As the economy has improved over the past year and people are returning to normal livelihoods and driving more and more. Demand for gas and oil has increased considerably over the past year plus. Demand increases prices. At least that is what I learned in business school.

I think that if you really look into it you will find that the price
of Brent, or W. Texas has been largely controlled by panic, not by
actual shortages or fear of Russia invading the oil fields.
In correlation, the price of gold in Thailand went up by about 10%
almost overnight although Thailand is about as far removed from the
Ukraine as it is possible to be.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/12/2022 6:03 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 14:44:24 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 3/12/2022 1:44 PM, sms wrote:
>>> On 3/11/2022 6:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S.
>>>> gets from
>>>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what
>>>> the Russians
>>>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for
>>>> the News".
>>>
>>> Also, there are currently 9,173 approved and available
>>> permits to drill for oil on federal and Indian lands.
>>>
>>> The oil companies decide whether, and when, it makes sense
>>> to use those permits. They don't want to flood the market
>>> with oil, especially when their existing wells, mainly in
>>> Alaska, are already not running at capacity.
>>>
>>> It's absurd to blame the president, any president, for
>>> gasoline price increases because they have almost no control
>>> over this. That said, Trump, who denied military aid to
>>> Ukraine for personal political gain, who cozied up to Putin,
>>> and who tried to weaken NATO, bears a lot of responsibility
>>> for what is transpiring in Ukraine right now.
>>>
>>> I don't like the high gas prices any more than anyone, but
>>> think of what the people in Ukraine are going through.
>>>
>>
>> We agree there's no comparison between the suffering in
>> Ukraine and high fuel prices here which have exacerbated our
>> inflationary spiral.
>>
>> Ms Psaki says high fuel pries are to be blamed on Mr Putin.
>> Here are some of the things Mr Putin forced Mr Biden to do:
>>
>> https://americansforprosperity.org/biden-policies-raising-gas-prices/?utm_source=whatcounts&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ntlnewsletter220312
>
> Be honest. The price of gasoline in the U.S. is largely governed by
> what U.S. citizens will pay. You want the price to go down? Just don't
> buy the damned stuff.
>
> But, Oh Yes, I forget. Y'all really do need those two cars to a
> family, don't you.

It's better than that. We have more cars than drivers.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a9672/more-cars-than-drivers-in-us/

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 14:29:25 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 2:44:28 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 3/12/2022 1:44 PM, sms wrote:
>> > On 3/11/2022 6:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >> I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S.
>> >> gets from
>> >> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what
>> >> the Russians
>> >> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for
>> >> the News".
>> >
>> > Also, there are currently 9,173 approved and available
>> > permits to drill for oil on federal and Indian lands.
>> >
>> > The oil companies decide whether, and when, it makes sense
>> > to use those permits. They don't want to flood the market
>> > with oil, especially when their existing wells, mainly in
>> > Alaska, are already not running at capacity.
>> >
>> > It's absurd to blame the president, any president, for
>> > gasoline price increases because they have almost no control
>> > over this. That said, Trump, who denied military aid to
>> > Ukraine for personal political gain, who cozied up to Putin,
>> > and who tried to weaken NATO, bears a lot of responsibility
>> > for what is transpiring in Ukraine right now.
>> >
>> > I don't like the high gas prices any more than anyone, but
>> > think of what the people in Ukraine are going through.
>> >
>> We agree there's no comparison between the suffering in
>> Ukraine and high fuel prices here which have exacerbated our
>> inflationary spiral.
>>
>> Ms Psaki says high fuel pries are to be blamed on Mr Putin.
>> Here are some of the things Mr Putin forced Mr Biden to do:
>>
>> https://americansforprosperity.org/biden-policies-raising-gas-prices/?utm_source=whatcounts&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ntlnewsletter220312
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
>Andy, your link above is one of Tommy's unbiased, neutral, honest sites. Ha Ha. Some examples from the article.
>
>"Last spring, Biden signed a resolution that overturned Trump administration reforms to EPA oil and gas rules. This resolution will worsen energy poverty, reestablish burdensome regulations, and have a disproportionate impact on small businesses."
>So Biden is reestablishing burdensome regulations, but Trump put in reforms? Anything biased there? The above quote is in a section talking about new regulations governing methane emissions. Its a crime to decrease methane. We should have more methane. Andy, do you think it would be good if we sealed your shop and filled it with methane gas? Actually you can do that by removing the traps from your plumbing and letting the methane gas from the sewer system come back into your shop. Isn't methane good?

Yup, Really, Really bad judgment. For example, the Biden changes "new
regulations governing methane emissions from oil and gas production,
transmission, storage, and distribution", i.e. stricter limits for
allowance of Methane escaping into the atmosphere.

"to halt new oil and gas leases on federal lands and waters, the Biden
administration has delayed decisions on these leases"

"A federal judge in Louisiana on Friday, Feb. 11, 2022, blocked the
Biden administration's move to increase the government's cost estimate
of future damages caused by greenhouse gas emissions, a key component
of federal rules for oil and gas drilling, automobiles and other
industries.

WASHINGTON (AP) — A federal judge on Friday blocked the Biden
administration’s attempt to put greater emphasis on potential damage
from greenhouse gas emissions when creating rules for polluting
industries.

U.S. District Judge James Cain of the Western District of Louisiana
sided with Republican attorneys general from energy producing states
who said the administration’s action to raise the cost estimate of
carbon emissions threatened to drive up energy costs while decreasing
state revenues from energy production.

The judge issued an injunction that bars the Biden administration from
using the higher cost estimate, which puts a dollar value on damages
caused by every additional ton of greenhouse gases emitted into the
atmosphere.

As a note here: Of course global climate change is a great lie.

>"The president also has rescinded Endangered Species Act reforms"
>So they were reforms when Trump changed the Endangered Species Act laws. But bad Biden rescinded these reforms. And changed the laws BACK to saving endangered animals and plants.
>
Yup, Terrible, terrible.

" Assistant Administrator for NOAA Fisheries Janet Coit said in a
statement.

"If finalized, today's proposed action of rescinding the regulatory
definition of habitat will improve our ability to use the tool of
critical-habitat designation appropriately and effectively to conserve
listed species as envisioned in the statute."

Goodness Gracious! Good sense seems to abound in the new
administration (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:21:26 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/12/2022 6:03 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 14:44:24 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/12/2022 1:44 PM, sms wrote:
>>>> On 3/11/2022 6:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>> I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S.
>>>>> gets from
>>>>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what
>>>>> the Russians
>>>>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for
>>>>> the News".
>>>>
>>>> Also, there are currently 9,173 approved and available
>>>> permits to drill for oil on federal and Indian lands.
>>>>
>>>> The oil companies decide whether, and when, it makes sense
>>>> to use those permits. They don't want to flood the market
>>>> with oil, especially when their existing wells, mainly in
>>>> Alaska, are already not running at capacity.
>>>>
>>>> It's absurd to blame the president, any president, for
>>>> gasoline price increases because they have almost no control
>>>> over this. That said, Trump, who denied military aid to
>>>> Ukraine for personal political gain, who cozied up to Putin,
>>>> and who tried to weaken NATO, bears a lot of responsibility
>>>> for what is transpiring in Ukraine right now.
>>>>
>>>> I don't like the high gas prices any more than anyone, but
>>>> think of what the people in Ukraine are going through.
>>>>
>>>
>>> We agree there's no comparison between the suffering in
>>> Ukraine and high fuel prices here which have exacerbated our
>>> inflationary spiral.
>>>
>>> Ms Psaki says high fuel pries are to be blamed on Mr Putin.
>>> Here are some of the things Mr Putin forced Mr Biden to do:
>>>
>>> https://americansforprosperity.org/biden-policies-raising-gas-prices/?utm_source=whatcounts&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ntlnewsletter220312
>>
>> Be honest. The price of gasoline in the U.S. is largely governed by
>> what U.S. citizens will pay. You want the price to go down? Just don't
>> buy the damned stuff.
>>
>> But, Oh Yes, I forget. Y'all really do need those two cars to a
>> family, don't you.
>
>It's better than that. We have more cars than drivers.
>
>https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a9672/more-cars-than-drivers-in-us/

It's all due to the failings of the American male.

It used to be that before any parent would give you permission to
marry their daughter you had to be interviewed by the Father to ensure
that you were capable of "supporting her in the manner to which she is
accustomed". So "back in the day" the husband went off to work in the
morning to "earn the daily bread" while the wife stayed home, raised
the kids, kept the house, and generally "ran the family".

Today, from what I read, the poor husband simply can't keep up with
all the family expenses and so the wife has to work.

So, obviously, the family NEEDS two cars (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/12/2022 8:43 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:21:26 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>>
>> It's better than that. We have more cars than drivers.
>>
>> https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a9672/more-cars-than-drivers-in-us/
>
>
> It's all due to the failings of the American male.
>
> It used to be that before any parent would give you permission to
> marry their daughter you had to be interviewed by the Father to ensure
> that you were capable of "supporting her in the manner to which she is
> accustomed". So "back in the day" the husband went off to work in the
> morning to "earn the daily bread" while the wife stayed home, raised
> the kids, kept the house, and generally "ran the family".
>
> Today, from what I read, the poor husband simply can't keep up with
> all the family expenses and so the wife has to work.
>
> So, obviously, the family NEEDS two cars (:-)

Well, like most things, it's more complicated. A great many of today's
women claim to feel very unfulfilled if they merely take care of the
home, raise the kids, do the cooking - all those traditional things.
Today, "women can have it all!" That is, they can do all those things
PLUS have fast rising executive careers. Of course, that means their
husbands (should they deign to get married) will have to help do all
those traditional things - or, as one couple I know, take them over
completely as a sort of role reversal.

My wife worked when we first married, stayed home when there was a new
baby or toddler, then worked part time once the kids were in school. It
seemed a good balance. Later, she returned to college, got a new degree
and worked in a medical field. She and I were both proud of her
accomplishments.

Not long after, we were invited to a faculty party. On being introduced
to and chatting with another "faculty wife" for a bit, my wife asked
"And what do you do?" The response was more than a little defensive:
"I'm just a homemaker." I told my wife she had to be careful asking that
question of other women.

I suppose I don't have a say in this, but I think it's a shame that
women are made to think that they MUST "have it all" (home, husband,
kids, career) to be considered successful. It seems like a frantic
existence.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 21:32:11 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/12/2022 8:43 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:21:26 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> It's better than that. We have more cars than drivers.
>>>
>>> https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a9672/more-cars-than-drivers-in-us/
>>
>>
>> It's all due to the failings of the American male.
>>
>> It used to be that before any parent would give you permission to
>> marry their daughter you had to be interviewed by the Father to ensure
>> that you were capable of "supporting her in the manner to which she is
>> accustomed". So "back in the day" the husband went off to work in the
>> morning to "earn the daily bread" while the wife stayed home, raised
>> the kids, kept the house, and generally "ran the family".
>>
>> Today, from what I read, the poor husband simply can't keep up with
>> all the family expenses and so the wife has to work.
>>
>> So, obviously, the family NEEDS two cars (:-)
>
>Well, like most things, it's more complicated. A great many of today's
>women claim to feel very unfulfilled if they merely take care of the
>home, raise the kids, do the cooking - all those traditional things.
>Today, "women can have it all!" That is, they can do all those things
>PLUS have fast rising executive careers. Of course, that means their
>husbands (should they deign to get married) will have to help do all
>those traditional things - or, as one couple I know, take them over
>completely as a sort of role reversal.
>
>My wife worked when we first married, stayed home when there was a new
>baby or toddler, then worked part time once the kids were in school. It
>seemed a good balance. Later, she returned to college, got a new degree
>and worked in a medical field. She and I were both proud of her
>accomplishments.
>
>Not long after, we were invited to a faculty party. On being introduced
>to and chatting with another "faculty wife" for a bit, my wife asked
>"And what do you do?" The response was more than a little defensive:
>"I'm just a homemaker." I told my wife she had to be careful asking that
>question of other women.
>
>I suppose I don't have a say in this, but I think it's a shame that
>women are made to think that they MUST "have it all" (home, husband,
>kids, career) to be considered successful. It seems like a frantic
>existence.

Yes, I know. But I wonder.

Standing up there with the three kids all in a row for their first
Communion, every one got their Catechism letter perfect, and all "A"
students at the school
Makes most people a little proud, doesn't it?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/12/2022 4:29 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 2:44:28 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 3/12/2022 1:44 PM, sms wrote:
>>> On 3/11/2022 6:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S.
>>>> gets from
>>>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what
>>>> the Russians
>>>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for
>>>> the News".
>>>
>>> Also, there are currently 9,173 approved and available
>>> permits to drill for oil on federal and Indian lands.
>>>
>>> The oil companies decide whether, and when, it makes sense
>>> to use those permits. They don't want to flood the market
>>> with oil, especially when their existing wells, mainly in
>>> Alaska, are already not running at capacity.
>>>
>>> It's absurd to blame the president, any president, for
>>> gasoline price increases because they have almost no control
>>> over this. That said, Trump, who denied military aid to
>>> Ukraine for personal political gain, who cozied up to Putin,
>>> and who tried to weaken NATO, bears a lot of responsibility
>>> for what is transpiring in Ukraine right now.
>>>
>>> I don't like the high gas prices any more than anyone, but
>>> think of what the people in Ukraine are going through.
>>>
>> We agree there's no comparison between the suffering in
>> Ukraine and high fuel prices here which have exacerbated our
>> inflationary spiral.
>>
>> Ms Psaki says high fuel pries are to be blamed on Mr Putin.
>> Here are some of the things Mr Putin forced Mr Biden to do:
>>
>> https://americansforprosperity.org/biden-policies-raising-gas-prices/?utm_source=whatcounts&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ntlnewsletter220312
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Andy, your link above is one of Tommy's unbiased, neutral, honest sites. Ha Ha. Some examples from the article.
>
> "Last spring, Biden signed a resolution that overturned Trump administration reforms to EPA oil and gas rules. This resolution will worsen energy poverty, reestablish burdensome regulations, and have a disproportionate impact on small businesses."
> So Biden is reestablishing burdensome regulations, but Trump put in reforms? Anything biased there? The above quote is in a section talking about new regulations governing methane emissions. Its a crime to decrease methane. We should have more methane. Andy, do you think it would be good if we sealed your shop and filled it with methane gas? Actually you can do that by removing the traps from your plumbing and letting the methane gas from the sewer system come back into your shop. Isn't methane good?
>
> "The president also has rescinded Endangered Species Act reforms"
> So they were reforms when Trump changed the Endangered Species Act laws. But bad Biden rescinded these reforms. And changed the laws BACK to saving endangered animals and plants.
>
> "In April 2021, without the consent of Congress, Biden rejoined the Paris agreement, which will result in onerous new regulations that could raise energy costs."
> Bad Biden joined up with them Frenchies again. France is evil. The USA should not do anything with the French. We should leave NATO and the G7. France is in them too. And the UN Security Council too. Bad France. Personally, I think its best to cooperate. Fighting and killing, as Russia is doing to Ukraine, is bad for everyone. Better to agree and work together. But this article is probably right. We should fight and kill and attack France and Europe. And leave NATO as Trump threatened to do numerous times. World would be much safer then.
>
> "The EPA has issued a final rule to phase out a common, inexpensive refrigerant. This policy is a de facto tax on air conditioning and refrigeration."
> Freon gas causes damage to the ozone, environment. Its being replaced with less dangerous gases. Kind of like lead was removed from gas back in the 1970s. And asbestos was removed as insulation a long time ago. I'd say these are improvements.
>
> "In May 2021, Biden issued a sweeping executive order that mobilized federal agencies, including the Securities and Exchange Commission, to enforce mandates on businesses, insurers, retirement funds, and suppliers. These policies will stifle innovation critical to improving the environment and will increase costs for a wide variety of businesses."
> This one is funny. Evil Biden is restricting and stifling "businesses, insurers, retirement funds, and suppliers" from improving the environment. That's rich.
>
> "The Biden administration has changed key inputs for economic and regulatory analysis, including raising the “social cost” of greenhouse gases. These policies will mask the true consumer cost of regulatory actions."
> Sounds like evil Biden is looking at how many people will be killed and how much damage the world will sustain instead of how much money my Republican Trump buddies can make/steal. Wow, that must be tragic.
>
> "The EPA also has mandated that even facilities with reduced emissions must remain on the list of “major” sources, subjecting these facilities to permitting burdens and higher costs."
> This one is rich too. So the writer of the article thinks people/facilities who follow the law, and reduce emissions, should be exempt from having to follow the law. Kind of like saying people who don't get speeding tickets, can speed and break the law when they want.
>
> "The Build Back Better agenda includes new taxes on natural gas and home heating. It also includes new taxes on petroleum and manufacturing."
> MT GOD!!!!!!!!!!! Trying to pass legislation that is actually paid for???????? What a crazy concept. Better to borrow borrow borrow like Reagan, Bush, Trump. And cut taxes too. BIGGER Federal deficits. NO NEW TAXES ever to pay for anything. Doesn't Biden know how to run a government? Borrow Borrow Borrow. Never ever ever tax anything.
>

You're welcome to your opinion but describing the prior
administration's regulatory relief of the extraction
industries as 'reforms' is apt - the result was higher
production, lower prices both of which flow directly into a
healthy economy (paid any freight bills lately?).

Moreover, on net the earth is better for USA extraction
industries versus the much more destructive processes of our
enemies- from whom we are now buying energy.

And so on through your list. Facts matter, or ought to,
while analyses may, and do, vary. YMMV.

Back to my point, please explain how any of the events and
policy failures listed and the resulting energy driven
inflation is the fault of Mr Putin. I'll wait.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971