On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 6:57:02 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
> >>> legal ownership is most restricted:
> >>> https://cwbchicago.com/
> >> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
> >> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon. (:-)
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> >
> > No.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
> > The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
> > "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
> > "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not have a waiting period to buy a gun."
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
> > "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body, along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
> > "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)."
> > "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22 semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
> > "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally by his mother."
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
> > "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016. He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
> > In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
> >
> 24 dead in not a mass shooting:
>
> https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2021/11/11/murder-spree-billy-chemirmir-committing-texas/

It is notable that these seniors were killed by a black man after the hard left has spent so much time passing CRT off as a real thing. When you convince people they were being discriminated against they cannot tell the difference between discrimination and ineptness. A ready audience to be taught the rigors of assassination. And of course no gun necessary.

On 3/8/2022 4:23 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:31:47 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:23:53 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles, guns are used to kill people. ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for "mass killings" by
>>>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those perpetrated by those
>>>>>> shooting guns?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass killing," but one
>>>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is killing three or more
>>>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time period.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Compare with these:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>> Well,
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer of 4 people in southern California. He killed these people at a half dozen or so different locations over several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>>> Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up and down the
>>> street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work, you know.
>>>
>>> But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To get hit,
>>> unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some maniac running
>>> down the street hacking and slashing and you know that you can't out
>>> run him?
>>>
>>> And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant "went mad" and
>>> shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I think) largest
>>> city.
>>
>> Yes you told us about him a little while ago. And if my memory is correct, it may not be of course, we talked about since this guy was an official Army sergeant, him taking an official M16 military rifle off base was not too crazy. Of course it was illegal since military guns can only be taken off base for official military operations. And him murdering people was not official military protocol.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to illustrate the
>>> difference in attitudes between here and there. Had this happened in
>>> the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming about them
>>> there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was the matter with
>>> Him"?
>>
>> In Thailand does this mass murdering by an Army sergeant happen once or twice every single year for the past 20-30 years? If it happens once, as in your example, then chalk it up to random events. But if it happens regularly as in the USA, then maybe something needs to be studied and a solution found.
>
> Nope. Not to say that we don't have shootings. I'm not sure the strict
> U.S. definition of "mass shootings" but we do have cases of people
> shooting a whole family.

Russell's point is good: The numbers make a difference.

You've given ONE example of a mass shooting in Thailand. As Andrew has
noted, in the U.S. "That's Wednesday."

See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States

> As somebody said years ago, "guns don't shoot people, people shoot
> people". So why blame guns?

We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered access to rapid
fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person must pull the trigger
to shoot someone; but in other nations with more rational policies,
people don't shoot people nearly as often.

And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the lack of rapid
fire arms. That's because things like ARs have no practical advantages
for civilians.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/8/2022 3:58 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:42:02 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:57:37 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>> Yes, certainly handguns are used in the majority of homicides and
>>> certainly many, maybe most, farms have a gun or two, if for no other
>>> reason then to keep the foxes out of the chicken house.
>>
>> I've lived in the midwest, farm country, my whole life and I don't think I have ever seen a fox in the wild. ...
>
> Well, I can't remember seeing a fox in the wild...

Seriously? I think you guys haven't been paying attention. I live in a
suburban village, contiguous with other large suburbs and a medium sized
city, certainly not a rural area. But I've seen a vixen raising kits in
the culvert of our next door neighbor's driveway. I've seen foxes in the
woods, on bike rides and more. I've heard them and smelled them in our
yard at night.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/8/2022 9:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
>>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
>>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
>>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon. (:-)
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John B.
>>
>> No.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
>> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done
>> with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
>> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
>> Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his
>> hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally
>> purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
>> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at
>> Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly
>> Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not
>> have a waiting period to buy a gun."
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
>> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm
>> Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body,
>> along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two
>> guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer
>> MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
>> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes
>> that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to
>> purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal
>> Background Check System (NICS)."
>> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22
>> semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
>> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old
>> enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young
>> to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally
>> by his mother."
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
>> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from
>> an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016.
>> He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he
>> did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
>> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
>>
>
> So we can agree that laws, no matter how restrictive and punitive to the
> general population, are not effective against psychopaths, jihadis and
> the like.

No, we cannot! As mentioned previously in detail, Canada doubtlessly has
a psychopath/jihadi density similar to the U.S. But they have far, far
fewer gun deaths. The same can be said for Britain, Ireland, Australia,
France, Germany, etc. etc.

Nobody on the "Ah _LIKE_ guns!!" side of the argument has given a
rational explanation for the differences in gun death rates between the
U.S. and those countries. Except, of course, the gun laws and policies,
which gun fans can't admit.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".

Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread is a link to
gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican states do worse than
most Democratic states.

Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing prejudices
for a bit and try to understand real data.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/8/2022 10:09 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 4:23 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:31:47 -0800 (PST),
>> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:23:53 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST),
>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles,
>>>>>>>>> guns are used to kill people. ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for
>>>>>>> "mass killings" by
>>>>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those
>>>>>>> perpetrated by those
>>>>>>> shooting guns?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass
>>>>>>> killing," but one
>>>>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is
>>>>>>> killing three or more
>>>>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time
>>>>>>> period.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Compare with these:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer
>>>>> of 4 people in southern California. He killed these
>>>>> people at a half dozen or so different locations over
>>>>> several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be
>>>>> sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a
>>>>> day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a
>>>>> WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to
>>>>> death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>>>> Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up
>>>> and down the
>>>> street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work,
>>>> you know.
>>>>
>>>> But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To get hit,
>>>> unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some
>>>> maniac running
>>>> down the street hacking and slashing and you know that
>>>> you can't out
>>>> run him?
>>>>
>>>> And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant
>>>> "went mad" and
>>>> shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I
>>>> think) largest
>>>> city.
>>>
>>> Yes you told us about him a little while ago. And if my
>>> memory is correct, it may not be of course, we talked
>>> about since this guy was an official Army sergeant, him
>>> taking an official M16 military rifle off base was not
>>> too crazy. Of course it was illegal since military guns
>>> can only be taken off base for official military
>>> operations. And him murdering people was not official
>>> military protocol.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to
>>>> illustrate the
>>>> difference in attitudes between here and there. Had this
>>>> happened in
>>>> the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming
>>>> about them
>>>> there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was
>>>> the matter with
>>>> Him"?
>>>
>>> In Thailand does this mass murdering by an Army sergeant
>>> happen once or twice every single year for the past 20-30
>>> years? If it happens once, as in your example, then
>>> chalk it up to random events. But if it happens
>>> regularly as in the USA, then maybe something needs to be
>>> studied and a solution found.
>>
>> Nope. Not to say that we don't have shootings. I'm not
>> sure the strict
>> U.S. definition of "mass shootings" but we do have cases
>> of people
>> shooting a whole family.
>
> Russell's point is good: The numbers make a difference.
>
> You've given ONE example of a mass shooting in Thailand. As
> Andrew has noted, in the U.S. "That's Wednesday."
>
> See
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>
>
>> As somebody said years ago, "guns don't shoot people,
>> people shoot
>> people". So why blame guns?
>
> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered access
> to rapid fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person
> must pull the trigger to shoot someone; but in other nations
> with more rational policies, people don't shoot people
> nearly as often.
>
> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the
> lack of rapid fire arms. That's because things like ARs have
> no practical advantages for civilians.
>

Except you have no explanation for the staggeringly large
numbers of legally owned weapons (more than humans in USA)
whose owners/operators are civil, responsible and not
engaged in violence.

Speaking of 'responsible', firearms owners here are
generally observant of 'no alcohol around firearms':

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3aef57a6-9e55-11ec-b38e-10b333e9179b?shareToken=998fce38a184cb244344330f9d6f546f

A good rule when observed.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>
> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>
> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>

The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
elsewhere in USA.

Which is why I countered the call for a national program or
policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead. The
problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
statutes and same governor.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 11:37:24 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> > I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread is a link to
> gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican states do worse than
> most Democratic states.
>
> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing prejudices
> for a bit and try to understand real data.
>
Seriously Frank - Tom has absolutely no ability to understand anything outside his hair-trigger right-wing prejudices. I know you already know this.

On 3/8/2022 12:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 10:09 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/8/2022 4:23 AM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:31:47 -0800 (PST),
>>> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:23:53 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST),
>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles,
>>>>>>>>>> guns are used to kill people. ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for
>>>>>>>> "mass killings" by
>>>>>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those
>>>>>>>> perpetrated by those
>>>>>>>> shooting guns?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass
>>>>>>>> killing," but one
>>>>>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is
>>>>>>>> killing three or more
>>>>>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time
>>>>>>>> period.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Compare with these:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer
>>>>>> of 4 people in southern California. He killed these
>>>>>> people at a half dozen or so different locations over
>>>>>> several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be
>>>>>> sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a
>>>>>> day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a
>>>>>> WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to
>>>>>> death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>>>>> Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up
>>>>> and down the
>>>>> street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work,
>>>>> you know.
>>>>>
>>>>> But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To get hit,
>>>>> unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some
>>>>> maniac running
>>>>> down the street hacking and slashing and you know that
>>>>> you can't out
>>>>> run him?
>>>>>
>>>>> And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant
>>>>> "went mad" and
>>>>> shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I
>>>>> think) largest
>>>>> city.
>>>>
>>>> Yes you told us about him a little while ago.  And if my
>>>> memory is correct, it may not be of course, we talked
>>>> about since this guy was an official Army sergeant, him
>>>> taking an official M16 military rifle off base was not
>>>> too crazy.  Of course it was illegal since military guns
>>>> can only be taken off base for official military
>>>> operations.  And him murdering people was not official
>>>> military protocol.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to
>>>>> illustrate the
>>>>> difference in attitudes between here and there. Had this
>>>>> happened in
>>>>> the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming
>>>>> about them
>>>>> there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was
>>>>> the matter with
>>>>> Him"?
>>>>
>>>> In Thailand does this mass murdering by an Army sergeant
>>>> happen once or twice every single year for the past 20-30
>>>> years?  If it happens once, as in your example, then
>>>> chalk it up to random events.  But if it happens
>>>> regularly as in the USA, then maybe something needs to be
>>>> studied and a solution found.
>>>
>>> Nope. Not to say that we don't have shootings. I'm not
>>> sure the strict
>>> U.S. definition of "mass shootings" but we do have cases
>>> of people
>>> shooting a whole family.
>>
>> Russell's point is good: The numbers make a difference.
>>
>> You've given ONE example of a mass shooting in Thailand. As
>> Andrew has noted, in the U.S. "That's Wednesday."
>>
>> See
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>
>>
>>> As somebody said years ago, "guns don't shoot people,
>>> people shoot
>>> people". So why blame guns?
>>
>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered access
>> to rapid fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person
>> must pull the trigger to shoot someone; but in other nations
>> with more rational policies, people don't shoot people
>> nearly as often.
>>
>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the
>> lack of rapid fire arms. That's because things like ARs have
>> no practical advantages for civilians.
>>
>
> Except you have no explanation for the staggeringly large numbers of
> legally owned weapons (more than humans in USA)...

My explanation would be fashion driven by decades of subtle marketing
hype. Fear mongering like "You may have to defend your home," product
placement in countless NCIS TV shows, ludicrous fantasy posters of a
heavily muscled Trump brandishing one...

> ... whose owners/operators
> are civil, responsible and not engaged in violence.

I don't want to give bonus points to the gun culture by saying "Only a
small percentage murder people." That's way beyond the liberal "Gold
medal for participating!" given to every kid in class.

"And Johnny gets a special trophy because he didn't assault his teacher
this year!"

If we passed out a hand grenade to every household, only a minority
would explode them. But it would still be a really stupid idea.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/8/2022 1:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 12:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 3/8/2022 10:09 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2022 4:23 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:31:47 -0800 (PST),
>>>> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>>>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:23:53 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles,
>>>>>>>>>>> guns are used to kill people. ...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for
>>>>>>>>> "mass killings" by
>>>>>>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those
>>>>>>>>> perpetrated by those
>>>>>>>>> shooting guns?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass
>>>>>>>>> killing," but one
>>>>>>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is
>>>>>>>>> killing three or more
>>>>>>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time
>>>>>>>>> period.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Compare with these:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer
>>>>>>> of 4 people in southern California. He killed these
>>>>>>> people at a half dozen or so different locations over
>>>>>>> several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be
>>>>>>> sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a
>>>>>>> day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a
>>>>>>> WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to
>>>>>>> death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>>>>>> Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up
>>>>>> and down the
>>>>>> street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work,
>>>>>> you know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To get
>>>>>> hit,
>>>>>> unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some
>>>>>> maniac running
>>>>>> down the street hacking and slashing and you know that
>>>>>> you can't out
>>>>>> run him?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant
>>>>>> "went mad" and
>>>>>> shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I
>>>>>> think) largest
>>>>>> city.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes you told us about him a little while ago. And if my
>>>>> memory is correct, it may not be of course, we talked
>>>>> about since this guy was an official Army sergeant, him
>>>>> taking an official M16 military rifle off base was not
>>>>> too crazy. Of course it was illegal since military guns
>>>>> can only be taken off base for official military
>>>>> operations. And him murdering people was not official
>>>>> military protocol.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to
>>>>>> illustrate the
>>>>>> difference in attitudes between here and there. Had this
>>>>>> happened in
>>>>>> the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming
>>>>>> about them
>>>>>> there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was
>>>>>> the matter with
>>>>>> Him"?
>>>>>
>>>>> In Thailand does this mass murdering by an Army sergeant
>>>>> happen once or twice every single year for the past 20-30
>>>>> years? If it happens once, as in your example, then
>>>>> chalk it up to random events. But if it happens
>>>>> regularly as in the USA, then maybe something needs to be
>>>>> studied and a solution found.
>>>>
>>>> Nope. Not to say that we don't have shootings. I'm not
>>>> sure the strict
>>>> U.S. definition of "mass shootings" but we do have cases
>>>> of people
>>>> shooting a whole family.
>>>
>>> Russell's point is good: The numbers make a difference.
>>>
>>> You've given ONE example of a mass shooting in Thailand. As
>>> Andrew has noted, in the U.S. "That's Wednesday."
>>>
>>> See
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> As somebody said years ago, "guns don't shoot people,
>>>> people shoot
>>>> people". So why blame guns?
>>>
>>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered access
>>> to rapid fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person
>>> must pull the trigger to shoot someone; but in other nations
>>> with more rational policies, people don't shoot people
>>> nearly as often.
>>>
>>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the
>>> lack of rapid fire arms. That's because things like ARs have
>>> no practical advantages for civilians.
>>>
>>
>> Except you have no explanation for the staggeringly large
>> numbers of legally owned weapons (more than humans in USA)...
>
> My explanation would be fashion driven by decades of subtle
> marketing hype. Fear mongering like "You may have to defend
> your home," product placement in countless NCIS TV shows,
> ludicrous fantasy posters of a heavily muscled Trump
> brandishing one...
>
>> ... whose owners/operators are civil, responsible and not
>> engaged in violence.
>
> I don't want to give bonus points to the gun culture by
> saying "Only a small percentage murder people." That's way
> beyond the liberal "Gold medal for participating!" given to
> every kid in class.
>
> "And Johnny gets a special trophy because he didn't assault
> his teacher this year!"
>
> If we passed out a hand grenade to every household, only a
> minority would explode them. But it would still be a really
> stupid idea.
>

You're mistaken, IMHO. It's not like a 'participation
ribbon' at all.

On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>
>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>
>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>
>
> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated in New
> Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as elsewhere in USA.
>
> Which is why I countered the call for a national program or policy
> earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead. The problems of Milwaukee
> are not the problems of the surrounding high density suburban counties,
> under the same statutes and same governor.

While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be higher in
red states, the FBI cautions against using any one demographic marker.

What contributes to political party preference are underlying factors
that also lead to higher crime rates, including poverty and low
education levels. Red states tend to be poorer and have lower education
levels.

If you look at the election results in the last election of the 15
states with the highest education levels, only 1, Utah, went for Trump.

As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly educated. I
love the poorly educated.”

On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 9:43:03 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>
> >> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
> >> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
> >> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
> >> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
> >
> > Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
> > is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
> > states do worse than most Democratic states.
> >
> > Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
> > prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
> >
> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
> elsewhere in USA.
>
> Which is why I countered the call for a national program or
> policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead. The
> problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
> statutes and same governor.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

As an example of the weird mind of Frank: New Orleans voted 83% Democrat, Atlanta is largely people with BA's or higher which vote not just leftist but radical leftist. They also have a population of 53% women who split largely against Conservatives. Miami has a 3 to 2 Democrat advantage. Again and again Frank does these things. "Either you agree with me or you are a sinner and there are no lies you could possibly say about a sinner".

On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 1:00:28 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 1:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 3/8/2022 12:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 3/8/2022 10:09 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 3/8/2022 4:23 AM, John B. wrote:
> >>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:31:47 -0800 (PST),
> >>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:23:53 PM UTC-6, John B.
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST),
> >>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST),
> >>>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles,
> >>>>>>>>>>> guns are used to kill people. ...
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for
> >>>>>>>>> "mass killings" by
> >>>>>>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those
> >>>>>>>>> perpetrated by those
> >>>>>>>>> shooting guns?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass
> >>>>>>>>> killing," but one
> >>>>>>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is
> >>>>>>>>> killing three or more
> >>>>>>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time
> >>>>>>>>> period.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Compare with these:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Well,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer
> >>>>>>> of 4 people in southern California. He killed these
> >>>>>>> people at a half dozen or so different locations over
> >>>>>>> several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be
> >>>>>>> sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a
> >>>>>>> day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a
> >>>>>>> WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to
> >>>>>>> death 9 people before police shot him to death.
> >>>>>> Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up
> >>>>>> and down the
> >>>>>> street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work,
> >>>>>> you know.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To get
> >>>>>> hit,
> >>>>>> unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some
> >>>>>> maniac running
> >>>>>> down the street hacking and slashing and you know that
> >>>>>> you can't out
> >>>>>> run him?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant
> >>>>>> "went mad" and
> >>>>>> shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I
> >>>>>> think) largest
> >>>>>> city.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes you told us about him a little while ago. And if my
> >>>>> memory is correct, it may not be of course, we talked
> >>>>> about since this guy was an official Army sergeant, him
> >>>>> taking an official M16 military rifle off base was not
> >>>>> too crazy. Of course it was illegal since military guns
> >>>>> can only be taken off base for official military
> >>>>> operations. And him murdering people was not official
> >>>>> military protocol.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to
> >>>>>> illustrate the
> >>>>>> difference in attitudes between here and there. Had this
> >>>>>> happened in
> >>>>>> the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming
> >>>>>> about them
> >>>>>> there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was
> >>>>>> the matter with
> >>>>>> Him"?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In Thailand does this mass murdering by an Army sergeant
> >>>>> happen once or twice every single year for the past 20-30
> >>>>> years? If it happens once, as in your example, then
> >>>>> chalk it up to random events. But if it happens
> >>>>> regularly as in the USA, then maybe something needs to be
> >>>>> studied and a solution found.
> >>>>
> >>>> Nope. Not to say that we don't have shootings. I'm not
> >>>> sure the strict
> >>>> U.S. definition of "mass shootings" but we do have cases
> >>>> of people
> >>>> shooting a whole family.
> >>>
> >>> Russell's point is good: The numbers make a difference.
> >>>
> >>> You've given ONE example of a mass shooting in Thailand. As
> >>> Andrew has noted, in the U.S. "That's Wednesday."
> >>>
> >>> See
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> As somebody said years ago, "guns don't shoot people,
> >>>> people shoot
> >>>> people". So why blame guns?
> >>>
> >>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered access
> >>> to rapid fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person
> >>> must pull the trigger to shoot someone; but in other nations
> >>> with more rational policies, people don't shoot people
> >>> nearly as often.
> >>>
> >>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the
> >>> lack of rapid fire arms. That's because things like ARs have
> >>> no practical advantages for civilians.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Except you have no explanation for the staggeringly large
> >> numbers of legally owned weapons (more than humans in USA)...
> >
> > My explanation would be fashion driven by decades of subtle
> > marketing hype. Fear mongering like "You may have to defend
> > your home," product placement in countless NCIS TV shows,
> > ludicrous fantasy posters of a heavily muscled Trump
> > brandishing one...
> >
> >> ... whose owners/operators are civil, responsible and not
> >> engaged in violence.
> >
> > I don't want to give bonus points to the gun culture by
> > saying "Only a small percentage murder people." That's way
> > beyond the liberal "Gold medal for participating!" given to
> > every kid in class.
> >
> > "And Johnny gets a special trophy because he didn't assault
> > his teacher this year!"
> >
> > If we passed out a hand grenade to every household, only a
> > minority would explode them. But it would still be a really
> > stupid idea.
> >
> You're mistaken, IMHO. It's not like a 'participation
> ribbon' at all.
>
> It's more like calling out blatant racism, painting a large
> group with broad brush, in that a miniscule number of people
> within that group (one color or another, Sicilians,
> Hondurans, firearms or pickup truck owners, etc) commit many
> serious crimes per day.
>
> Criminal action ought to matter and removing violent
> criminals from society was once considered a public duty. No
> longer. And the resultant suffering is broader and deeper
> than you might imagine (not only shot victims). If firearms
> magically disappeared overnight the savages would still bash
> their girlfriends, assault the small and weak on the street,
> stab or slash people for a $10 stolen telephone, push
> citizens onto the subway tracks, on and on.

On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:34:26 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/8/2022 9:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
>>>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
>>>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
>>>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon. (:-)
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> John B.
>>>
>>> No.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
>>> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done
>>> with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
>>> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
>>> Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his
>>> hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally
>>> purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
>>> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at
>>> Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly
>>> Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not
>>> have a waiting period to buy a gun."
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
>>> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm
>>> Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body,
>>> along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two
>>> guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer
>>> MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
>>> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes
>>> that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to
>>> purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal
>>> Background Check System (NICS)."
>>> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22
>>> semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
>>> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old
>>> enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young
>>> to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally
>>> by his mother."
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
>>> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from
>>> an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016.
>>> He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he
>>> did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
>>> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
>>>
>>
>> So we can agree that laws, no matter how restrictive and punitive to the
>> general population, are not effective against psychopaths, jihadis and
>> the like.
>
>No, we cannot! As mentioned previously in detail, Canada doubtlessly has
>a psychopath/jihadi density similar to the U.S. But they have far, far
>fewer gun deaths. The same can be said for Britain, Ireland, Australia,
>France, Germany, etc. etc.
>

Nope. Wrong again Tommy, err Franky.
https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/16-countries-with-the-highest-mental-illness-rates-in-the-world-649757/?singlepage=1

The U.S. seems to be #3 in the world while Canada isn't even
mentioned.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:09:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/8/2022 4:23 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:31:47 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:23:53 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles, guns are used to kill people. ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for "mass killings" by
>>>>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those perpetrated by those
>>>>>>> shooting guns?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass killing," but one
>>>>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is killing three or more
>>>>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time period.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Compare with these:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>>>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer of 4 people in southern California. He killed these people at a half dozen or so different locations over several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>>>> Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up and down the
>>>> street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work, you know.
>>>>
>>>> But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To get hit,
>>>> unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some maniac running
>>>> down the street hacking and slashing and you know that you can't out
>>>> run him?
>>>>
>>>> And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant "went mad" and
>>>> shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I think) largest
>>>> city.
>>>
>>> Yes you told us about him a little while ago. And if my memory is correct, it may not be of course, we talked about since this guy was an official Army sergeant, him taking an official M16 military rifle off base was not too crazy. Of course it was illegal since military guns can only be taken off base for official military operations. And him murdering people was not official military protocol.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to illustrate the
>>>> difference in attitudes between here and there. Had this happened in
>>>> the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming about them
>>>> there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was the matter with
>>>> Him"?
>>>
>>> In Thailand does this mass murdering by an Army sergeant happen once or twice every single year for the past 20-30 years? If it happens once, as in your example, then chalk it up to random events. But if it happens regularly as in the USA, then maybe something needs to be studied and a solution found.
>>
>> Nope. Not to say that we don't have shootings. I'm not sure the strict
>> U.S. definition of "mass shootings" but we do have cases of people
>> shooting a whole family.
>
>Russell's point is good: The numbers make a difference.
>
>You've given ONE example of a mass shooting in Thailand. As Andrew has
>noted, in the U.S. "That's Wednesday."
>
>See
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>
>> As somebody said years ago, "guns don't shoot people, people shoot
>> people". So why blame guns?
>
>We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered access to rapid
>fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person must pull the trigger
>to shoot someone; but in other nations with more rational policies,
>people don't shoot people nearly as often.
>
>And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the lack of rapid
>fire arms. That's because things like ARs have no practical advantages
>for civilians.

But Frank, as I and Andrew have both told you, and given reference,
rifles, i.e, those terrifying AR type guns, are used in murders far
less often then other type of firearms. Less often, even, then hands
and feet.

But in spite of all evidence to the contrary you continue to curse and
damn the AR type. Dementia? or Lies?

Tell us, the whole world is waiting with bated breath for your reply.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>
>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>
>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>
>>
>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>> elsewhere in USA.
>>
>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>> statutes and same governor.
>
> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
> demographic marker.
>
> What contributes to political party preference are
> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>
> If you look at the election results in the last election of
> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
> Utah, went for Trump.
>
> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
> educated. I love the poorly educated.”
>

Nice topic drift there.

Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/8/2022 5:17 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:09:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/8/2022 4:23 AM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:31:47 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:23:53 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles, guns are used to kill people. ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for "mass killings" by
>>>>>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those perpetrated by those
>>>>>>>> shooting guns?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass killing," but one
>>>>>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is killing three or more
>>>>>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time period.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Compare with these:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>>>>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer of 4 people in southern California. He killed these people at a half dozen or so different locations over several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>>>>> Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up and down the
>>>>> street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work, you know.
>>>>>
>>>>> But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To get hit,
>>>>> unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some maniac running
>>>>> down the street hacking and slashing and you know that you can't out
>>>>> run him?
>>>>>
>>>>> And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant "went mad" and
>>>>> shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I think) largest
>>>>> city.
>>>>
>>>> Yes you told us about him a little while ago. And if my memory is correct, it may not be of course, we talked about since this guy was an official Army sergeant, him taking an official M16 military rifle off base was not too crazy. Of course it was illegal since military guns can only be taken off base for official military operations. And him murdering people was not official military protocol.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to illustrate the
>>>>> difference in attitudes between here and there. Had this happened in
>>>>> the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming about them
>>>>> there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was the matter with
>>>>> Him"?
>>>>
>>>> In Thailand does this mass murdering by an Army sergeant happen once or twice every single year for the past 20-30 years? If it happens once, as in your example, then chalk it up to random events. But if it happens regularly as in the USA, then maybe something needs to be studied and a solution found.
>>>
>>> Nope. Not to say that we don't have shootings. I'm not sure the strict
>>> U.S. definition of "mass shootings" but we do have cases of people
>>> shooting a whole family.
>>
>> Russell's point is good: The numbers make a difference.
>>
>> You've given ONE example of a mass shooting in Thailand. As Andrew has
>> noted, in the U.S. "That's Wednesday."
>>
>> See
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>
>>> As somebody said years ago, "guns don't shoot people, people shoot
>>> people". So why blame guns?
>>
>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered access to rapid
>> fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person must pull the trigger
>> to shoot someone; but in other nations with more rational policies,
>> people don't shoot people nearly as often.
>>
>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the lack of rapid
>> fire arms. That's because things like ARs have no practical advantages
>> for civilians.
>
>
> But Frank, as I and Andrew have both told you, and given reference,
> rifles, i.e, those terrifying AR type guns, are used in murders far
> less often then other type of firearms. Less often, even, then hands
> and feet.
>
> But in spite of all evidence to the contrary you continue to curse and
> damn the AR type. Dementia? or Lies?
>
> Tell us, the whole world is waiting with bated breath for your reply.
>
>

That's so annoying it's almost enough to make a guy buy a
big-wheel pickup truck.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 11:37:35 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/8/2022 10:09 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/8/2022 4:23 AM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:31:47 -0800 (PST),
>>> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:23:53 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST),
>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles,
>>>>>>>>>> guns are used to kill people. ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for
>>>>>>>> "mass killings" by
>>>>>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those
>>>>>>>> perpetrated by those
>>>>>>>> shooting guns?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass
>>>>>>>> killing," but one
>>>>>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is
>>>>>>>> killing three or more
>>>>>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time
>>>>>>>> period.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Compare with these:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer
>>>>>> of 4 people in southern California. He killed these
>>>>>> people at a half dozen or so different locations over
>>>>>> several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be
>>>>>> sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a
>>>>>> day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a
>>>>>> WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to
>>>>>> death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>>>>> Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up
>>>>> and down the
>>>>> street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work,
>>>>> you know.
>>>>>
>>>>> But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To get hit,
>>>>> unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some
>>>>> maniac running
>>>>> down the street hacking and slashing and you know that
>>>>> you can't out
>>>>> run him?
>>>>>
>>>>> And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant
>>>>> "went mad" and
>>>>> shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I
>>>>> think) largest
>>>>> city.
>>>>
>>>> Yes you told us about him a little while ago. And if my
>>>> memory is correct, it may not be of course, we talked
>>>> about since this guy was an official Army sergeant, him
>>>> taking an official M16 military rifle off base was not
>>>> too crazy. Of course it was illegal since military guns
>>>> can only be taken off base for official military
>>>> operations. And him murdering people was not official
>>>> military protocol.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to
>>>>> illustrate the
>>>>> difference in attitudes between here and there. Had this
>>>>> happened in
>>>>> the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming
>>>>> about them
>>>>> there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was
>>>>> the matter with
>>>>> Him"?
>>>>
>>>> In Thailand does this mass murdering by an Army sergeant
>>>> happen once or twice every single year for the past 20-30
>>>> years? If it happens once, as in your example, then
>>>> chalk it up to random events. But if it happens
>>>> regularly as in the USA, then maybe something needs to be
>>>> studied and a solution found.
>>>
>>> Nope. Not to say that we don't have shootings. I'm not
>>> sure the strict
>>> U.S. definition of "mass shootings" but we do have cases
>>> of people
>>> shooting a whole family.
>>
>> Russell's point is good: The numbers make a difference.
>>
>> You've given ONE example of a mass shooting in Thailand. As
>> Andrew has noted, in the U.S. "That's Wednesday."
>>
>> See
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>
>>
>>> As somebody said years ago, "guns don't shoot people,
>>> people shoot
>>> people". So why blame guns?
>>
>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered access
>> to rapid fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person
>> must pull the trigger to shoot someone; but in other nations
>> with more rational policies, people don't shoot people
>> nearly as often.
>>
>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the
>> lack of rapid fire arms. That's because things like ARs have
>> no practical advantages for civilians.
>>
>
>Except you have no explanation for the staggeringly large
>numbers of legally owned weapons (more than humans in USA)
>whose owners/operators are civil, responsible and not
>engaged in violence.
>
>Speaking of 'responsible', firearms owners here are
>generally observant of 'no alcohol around firearms':
>
>https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3aef57a6-9e55-11ec-b38e-10b333e9179b?shareToken=998fce38a184cb244344330f9d6f546f
>
>A good rule when observed.

Well, it certainly is true that rifles of all kinds are used in some
2.6% murders in 2019, for which the weapon can be determined.

In comparison knives and cutting devices were used in 10.6%, clubs.
hammers, etc., in 2.8% and hands and feet in 4.3% of murders but those
are "every day" sort of things.

So it is obvious that denying the American Public access to these
terrifying and dangerious "long guns" will decrease the homicide rate
dramatically!

Yes Sir! Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 14:26:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/8/2022 12:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 3/8/2022 10:09 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2022 4:23 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:31:47 -0800 (PST),
>>>> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>>>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:23:53 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles,
>>>>>>>>>>> guns are used to kill people. ...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for
>>>>>>>>> "mass killings" by
>>>>>>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those
>>>>>>>>> perpetrated by those
>>>>>>>>> shooting guns?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass
>>>>>>>>> killing," but one
>>>>>>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is
>>>>>>>>> killing three or more
>>>>>>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time
>>>>>>>>> period.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Compare with these:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer
>>>>>>> of 4 people in southern California. He killed these
>>>>>>> people at a half dozen or so different locations over
>>>>>>> several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be
>>>>>>> sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a
>>>>>>> day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a
>>>>>>> WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to
>>>>>>> death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>>>>>> Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up
>>>>>> and down the
>>>>>> street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work,
>>>>>> you know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To get hit,
>>>>>> unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some
>>>>>> maniac running
>>>>>> down the street hacking and slashing and you know that
>>>>>> you can't out
>>>>>> run him?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant
>>>>>> "went mad" and
>>>>>> shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I
>>>>>> think) largest
>>>>>> city.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes you told us about him a little while ago.  And if my
>>>>> memory is correct, it may not be of course, we talked
>>>>> about since this guy was an official Army sergeant, him
>>>>> taking an official M16 military rifle off base was not
>>>>> too crazy.  Of course it was illegal since military guns
>>>>> can only be taken off base for official military
>>>>> operations.  And him murdering people was not official
>>>>> military protocol.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to
>>>>>> illustrate the
>>>>>> difference in attitudes between here and there. Had this
>>>>>> happened in
>>>>>> the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming
>>>>>> about them
>>>>>> there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was
>>>>>> the matter with
>>>>>> Him"?
>>>>>
>>>>> In Thailand does this mass murdering by an Army sergeant
>>>>> happen once or twice every single year for the past 20-30
>>>>> years?  If it happens once, as in your example, then
>>>>> chalk it up to random events.  But if it happens
>>>>> regularly as in the USA, then maybe something needs to be
>>>>> studied and a solution found.
>>>>
>>>> Nope. Not to say that we don't have shootings. I'm not
>>>> sure the strict
>>>> U.S. definition of "mass shootings" but we do have cases
>>>> of people
>>>> shooting a whole family.
>>>
>>> Russell's point is good: The numbers make a difference.
>>>
>>> You've given ONE example of a mass shooting in Thailand. As
>>> Andrew has noted, in the U.S. "That's Wednesday."
>>>
>>> See
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>
>>>
>>>> As somebody said years ago, "guns don't shoot people,
>>>> people shoot
>>>> people". So why blame guns?
>>>
>>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered access
>>> to rapid fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person
>>> must pull the trigger to shoot someone; but in other nations
>>> with more rational policies, people don't shoot people
>>> nearly as often.
>>>
>>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the
>>> lack of rapid fire arms. That's because things like ARs have
>>> no practical advantages for civilians.
>>>
>>
>> Except you have no explanation for the staggeringly large numbers of
>> legally owned weapons (more than humans in USA)...
>
>My explanation would be fashion driven by decades of subtle marketing
>hype. Fear mongering like "You may have to defend your home," product
>placement in countless NCIS TV shows, ludicrous fantasy posters of a
>heavily muscled Trump brandishing one...
>
>> ... whose owners/operators
>> are civil, responsible and not engaged in violence.
>
>I don't want to give bonus points to the gun culture by saying "Only a
>small percentage murder people." That's way beyond the liberal "Gold
>medal for participating!" given to every kid in class.
>
>"And Johnny gets a special trophy because he didn't assault his teacher
>this year!"
>
>If we passed out a hand grenade to every household, only a minority
>would explode them. But it would still be a really stupid idea.

But you are just making things up. No gold medals for participating
true... but no gold medals for not stealing cars, and no gold medal
for not robbing banks, and on and on.

I pointed out that bicycles had killed more people - some hundred
times more, then the terrible "mass shootings" and you dismissed them
although they were higher then the combat deaths in Vietnam which I
remind you so terrified the youth of American that they fled the
country.

On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>
>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>
>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>
>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>> statutes and same governor.
>>
>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>> demographic marker.
>>
>> What contributes to political party preference are
>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>
>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>
>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>
>
>Nice topic drift there.
>
>Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.

But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.

What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/8/2022 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 14:26:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/8/2022 12:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2022 10:09 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 3/8/2022 4:23 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:31:47 -0800 (PST),
>>>>> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>>>>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:23:53 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles,
>>>>>>>>>>>> guns are used to kill people. ...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for
>>>>>>>>>> "mass killings" by
>>>>>>>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those
>>>>>>>>>> perpetrated by those
>>>>>>>>>> shooting guns?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass
>>>>>>>>>> killing," but one
>>>>>>>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is
>>>>>>>>>> killing three or more
>>>>>>>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time
>>>>>>>>>> period.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Compare with these:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer
>>>>>>>> of 4 people in southern California. He killed these
>>>>>>>> people at a half dozen or so different locations over
>>>>>>>> several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be
>>>>>>>> sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a
>>>>>>>> day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a
>>>>>>>> WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to
>>>>>>>> death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>>>>>>> Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up
>>>>>>> and down the
>>>>>>> street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work,
>>>>>>> you know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To get hit,
>>>>>>> unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some
>>>>>>> maniac running
>>>>>>> down the street hacking and slashing and you know that
>>>>>>> you can't out
>>>>>>> run him?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant
>>>>>>> "went mad" and
>>>>>>> shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I
>>>>>>> think) largest
>>>>>>> city.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes you told us about him a little while ago. And if my
>>>>>> memory is correct, it may not be of course, we talked
>>>>>> about since this guy was an official Army sergeant, him
>>>>>> taking an official M16 military rifle off base was not
>>>>>> too crazy. Of course it was illegal since military guns
>>>>>> can only be taken off base for official military
>>>>>> operations. And him murdering people was not official
>>>>>> military protocol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to
>>>>>>> illustrate the
>>>>>>> difference in attitudes between here and there. Had this
>>>>>>> happened in
>>>>>>> the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming
>>>>>>> about them
>>>>>>> there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was
>>>>>>> the matter with
>>>>>>> Him"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Thailand does this mass murdering by an Army sergeant
>>>>>> happen once or twice every single year for the past 20-30
>>>>>> years? If it happens once, as in your example, then
>>>>>> chalk it up to random events. But if it happens
>>>>>> regularly as in the USA, then maybe something needs to be
>>>>>> studied and a solution found.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope. Not to say that we don't have shootings. I'm not
>>>>> sure the strict
>>>>> U.S. definition of "mass shootings" but we do have cases
>>>>> of people
>>>>> shooting a whole family.
>>>>
>>>> Russell's point is good: The numbers make a difference.
>>>>
>>>> You've given ONE example of a mass shooting in Thailand. As
>>>> Andrew has noted, in the U.S. "That's Wednesday."
>>>>
>>>> See
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As somebody said years ago, "guns don't shoot people,
>>>>> people shoot
>>>>> people". So why blame guns?
>>>>
>>>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered access
>>>> to rapid fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person
>>>> must pull the trigger to shoot someone; but in other nations
>>>> with more rational policies, people don't shoot people
>>>> nearly as often.
>>>>
>>>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the
>>>> lack of rapid fire arms. That's because things like ARs have
>>>> no practical advantages for civilians.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Except you have no explanation for the staggeringly large numbers of
>>> legally owned weapons (more than humans in USA)...
>>
>> My explanation would be fashion driven by decades of subtle marketing
>> hype. Fear mongering like "You may have to defend your home," product
>> placement in countless NCIS TV shows, ludicrous fantasy posters of a
>> heavily muscled Trump brandishing one...
>>
>>> ... whose owners/operators
>>> are civil, responsible and not engaged in violence.
>>
>> I don't want to give bonus points to the gun culture by saying "Only a
>> small percentage murder people." That's way beyond the liberal "Gold
>> medal for participating!" given to every kid in class.
>>
>> "And Johnny gets a special trophy because he didn't assault his teacher
>> this year!"
>>
>> If we passed out a hand grenade to every household, only a minority
>> would explode them. But it would still be a really stupid idea.
>
> But you are just making things up. No gold medals for participating
> true... but no gold medals for not stealing cars, and no gold medal
> for not robbing banks, and on and on.
>
> I pointed out that bicycles had killed more people - some hundred
> times more, then the terrible "mass shootings" and you dismissed them
> although they were higher then the combat deaths in Vietnam which I
> remind you so terrified the youth of American that they fled the
> country.
>
> And you will leap into the fray, shouting "BUT bicycles have an
> advantage!" Yup, I agree, an advantage in killing people. Think of it,
> 100 times as many dead on bicycles as died in mass shootings.
>
> I think I'll let you keep those advantages. I don't want any part of
> them.
>

On 3/8/2022 7:23 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>
>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>
>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>
>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>
>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>> demographic marker.
>>>
>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>
>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>
>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>
>>
>> Nice topic drift there.
>>
>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>
> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>
> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>

I was not being pejorative or hyperbolic. Here's the actual
list:
https://emke.uwm.edu/entry/milwaukee-mayors/

No exceptions since 1898.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/8/2022 4:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 1:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/8/2022 12:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2022 10:09 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 3/8/2022 4:23 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:31:47 -0800 (PST),
>>>>> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>>>>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:23:53 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles,
>>>>>>>>>>>> guns are used to kill people. ...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for
>>>>>>>>>> "mass killings" by
>>>>>>>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those
>>>>>>>>>> perpetrated by those
>>>>>>>>>> shooting guns?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass
>>>>>>>>>> killing," but one
>>>>>>>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is
>>>>>>>>>> killing three or more
>>>>>>>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time
>>>>>>>>>> period.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Compare with these:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer
>>>>>>>> of 4 people in southern California. He killed these
>>>>>>>> people at a half dozen or so different locations over
>>>>>>>> several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be
>>>>>>>> sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a
>>>>>>>> day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a
>>>>>>>> WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to
>>>>>>>> death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>>>>>>> Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up
>>>>>>> and down the
>>>>>>> street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work,
>>>>>>> you know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To get
>>>>>>> hit,
>>>>>>> unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some
>>>>>>> maniac running
>>>>>>> down the street hacking and slashing and you know that
>>>>>>> you can't out
>>>>>>> run him?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant
>>>>>>> "went mad" and
>>>>>>> shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I
>>>>>>> think) largest
>>>>>>> city.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes you told us about him a little while ago.  And if my
>>>>>> memory is correct, it may not be of course, we talked
>>>>>> about since this guy was an official Army sergeant, him
>>>>>> taking an official M16 military rifle off base was not
>>>>>> too crazy.  Of course it was illegal since military guns
>>>>>> can only be taken off base for official military
>>>>>> operations.  And him murdering people was not official
>>>>>> military protocol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to
>>>>>>> illustrate the
>>>>>>> difference in attitudes between here and there. Had this
>>>>>>> happened in
>>>>>>> the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming
>>>>>>> about them
>>>>>>> there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was
>>>>>>> the matter with
>>>>>>> Him"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Thailand does this mass murdering by an Army sergeant
>>>>>> happen once or twice every single year for the past 20-30
>>>>>> years?  If it happens once, as in your example, then
>>>>>> chalk it up to random events.  But if it happens
>>>>>> regularly as in the USA, then maybe something needs to be
>>>>>> studied and a solution found.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope. Not to say that we don't have shootings. I'm not
>>>>> sure the strict
>>>>> U.S. definition of "mass shootings" but we do have cases
>>>>> of people
>>>>> shooting a whole family.
>>>>
>>>> Russell's point is good: The numbers make a difference.
>>>>
>>>> You've given ONE example of a mass shooting in Thailand. As
>>>> Andrew has noted, in the U.S. "That's Wednesday."
>>>>
>>>> See
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As somebody said years ago, "guns don't shoot people,
>>>>> people shoot
>>>>> people". So why blame guns?
>>>>
>>>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered access
>>>> to rapid fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person
>>>> must pull the trigger to shoot someone; but in other nations
>>>> with more rational policies, people don't shoot people
>>>> nearly as often.
>>>>
>>>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the
>>>> lack of rapid fire arms. That's because things like ARs have
>>>> no practical advantages for civilians.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Except you have no explanation for the staggeringly large
>>> numbers of legally owned weapons (more than humans in USA)...
>>
>> My explanation would be fashion driven by decades of subtle
>> marketing hype. Fear mongering like "You may have to defend
>> your home," product placement in countless NCIS TV shows,
>> ludicrous fantasy posters of a heavily muscled Trump
>> brandishing one...
>>
>>> ... whose owners/operators are civil, responsible and not
>>> engaged in violence.
>>
>> I don't want to give bonus points to the gun culture by
>> saying "Only a small percentage murder people." That's way
>> beyond the liberal "Gold medal for participating!" given to
>> every kid in class.
>>
>> "And Johnny gets a special trophy because he didn't assault
>> his teacher this year!"
>>
>> If we passed out a hand grenade to every household, only a
>> minority would explode them. But it would still be a really
>> stupid idea.
>>
>
> You're mistaken, IMHO. It's not like a 'participation ribbon' at all.
>
> It's more like calling out blatant racism, painting a large group with
> broad brush, in that a miniscule number of people within that group (one
> color or another, Sicilians, Hondurans, firearms or pickup truck owners,
> etc) commit many serious crimes per day.

On 3/8/2022 5:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 1:00:28 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 3/8/2022 1:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2022 12:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:09 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 3/8/2022 4:23 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:31:47 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:23:53 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> guns are used to kill people. ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for
>>>>>>>>>>> "mass killings" by
>>>>>>>>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those
>>>>>>>>>>> perpetrated by those
>>>>>>>>>>> shooting guns?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass
>>>>>>>>>>> killing," but one
>>>>>>>>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is
>>>>>>>>>>> killing three or more
>>>>>>>>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time
>>>>>>>>>>> period.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Compare with these:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer
>>>>>>>>> of 4 people in southern California. He killed these
>>>>>>>>> people at a half dozen or so different locations over
>>>>>>>>> several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be
>>>>>>>>> sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a
>>>>>>>>> day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a
>>>>>>>>> WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to
>>>>>>>>> death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>>>>>>>> Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up
>>>>>>>> and down the
>>>>>>>> street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work,
>>>>>>>> you know.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To get
>>>>>>>> hit,
>>>>>>>> unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some
>>>>>>>> maniac running
>>>>>>>> down the street hacking and slashing and you know that
>>>>>>>> you can't out
>>>>>>>> run him?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant
>>>>>>>> "went mad" and
>>>>>>>> shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I
>>>>>>>> think) largest
>>>>>>>> city.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes you told us about him a little while ago. And if my
>>>>>>> memory is correct, it may not be of course, we talked
>>>>>>> about since this guy was an official Army sergeant, him
>>>>>>> taking an official M16 military rifle off base was not
>>>>>>> too crazy. Of course it was illegal since military guns
>>>>>>> can only be taken off base for official military
>>>>>>> operations. And him murdering people was not official
>>>>>>> military protocol.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to
>>>>>>>> illustrate the
>>>>>>>> difference in attitudes between here and there. Had this
>>>>>>>> happened in
>>>>>>>> the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming
>>>>>>>> about them
>>>>>>>> there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was
>>>>>>>> the matter with
>>>>>>>> Him"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In Thailand does this mass murdering by an Army sergeant
>>>>>>> happen once or twice every single year for the past 20-30
>>>>>>> years? If it happens once, as in your example, then
>>>>>>> chalk it up to random events. But if it happens
>>>>>>> regularly as in the USA, then maybe something needs to be
>>>>>>> studied and a solution found.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope. Not to say that we don't have shootings. I'm not
>>>>>> sure the strict
>>>>>> U.S. definition of "mass shootings" but we do have cases
>>>>>> of people
>>>>>> shooting a whole family.
>>>>>
>>>>> Russell's point is good: The numbers make a difference.
>>>>>
>>>>> You've given ONE example of a mass shooting in Thailand. As
>>>>> Andrew has noted, in the U.S. "That's Wednesday."
>>>>>
>>>>> See
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> As somebody said years ago, "guns don't shoot people,
>>>>>> people shoot
>>>>>> people". So why blame guns?
>>>>>
>>>>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered access
>>>>> to rapid fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person
>>>>> must pull the trigger to shoot someone; but in other nations
>>>>> with more rational policies, people don't shoot people
>>>>> nearly as often.
>>>>>
>>>>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the
>>>>> lack of rapid fire arms. That's because things like ARs have
>>>>> no practical advantages for civilians.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Except you have no explanation for the staggeringly large
>>>> numbers of legally owned weapons (more than humans in USA)...
>>>
>>> My explanation would be fashion driven by decades of subtle
>>> marketing hype. Fear mongering like "You may have to defend
>>> your home," product placement in countless NCIS TV shows,
>>> ludicrous fantasy posters of a heavily muscled Trump
>>> brandishing one...
>>>
>>>> ... whose owners/operators are civil, responsible and not
>>>> engaged in violence.
>>>
>>> I don't want to give bonus points to the gun culture by
>>> saying "Only a small percentage murder people." That's way
>>> beyond the liberal "Gold medal for participating!" given to
>>> every kid in class.
>>>
>>> "And Johnny gets a special trophy because he didn't assault
>>> his teacher this year!"
>>>
>>> If we passed out a hand grenade to every household, only a
>>> minority would explode them. But it would still be a really
>>> stupid idea.
>>>
>> You're mistaken, IMHO. It's not like a 'participation
>> ribbon' at all.
>>
>> It's more like calling out blatant racism, painting a large
>> group with broad brush, in that a miniscule number of people
>> within that group (one color or another, Sicilians,
>> Hondurans, firearms or pickup truck owners, etc) commit many
>> serious crimes per day.
>>
>> Criminal action ought to matter and removing violent
>> criminals from society was once considered a public duty. No
>> longer. And the resultant suffering is broader and deeper
>> than you might imagine (not only shot victims). If firearms
>> magically disappeared overnight the savages would still bash
>> their girlfriends, assault the small and weak on the street,
>> stab or slash people for a $10 stolen telephone, push
>> citizens onto the subway tracks, on and on.
>
> The illness of Frank is rather surprising. It isn't as if the numbers of guns in the USA isn't a known factor. Only 1/3rd of Americans say that they wouldn't own a gun.
> "There are estimated to be over 400 million guns in the United States between police, the military, and American civilians. Over 393 Million (Over 98%) of those guns are in civilian hands, the equivalent of 120 firearms per 100 citizens."
>
> So I wonder if Frank wants to call the Pew Research Center liars.

On 3/8/2022 8:02 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 14:26:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/8/2022 12:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2022 10:09 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 3/8/2022 4:23 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:31:47 -0800 (PST),
>>>>> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>>>>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:23:53 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles,
>>>>>>>>>>>> guns are used to kill people. ...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for
>>>>>>>>>> "mass killings" by
>>>>>>>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those
>>>>>>>>>> perpetrated by those
>>>>>>>>>> shooting guns?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass
>>>>>>>>>> killing," but one
>>>>>>>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is
>>>>>>>>>> killing three or more
>>>>>>>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time
>>>>>>>>>> period.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Compare with these:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer
>>>>>>>> of 4 people in southern California. He killed these
>>>>>>>> people at a half dozen or so different locations over
>>>>>>>> several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be
>>>>>>>> sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a
>>>>>>>> day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a
>>>>>>>> WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to
>>>>>>>> death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>>>>>>> Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up
>>>>>>> and down the
>>>>>>> street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work,
>>>>>>> you know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To get hit,
>>>>>>> unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some
>>>>>>> maniac running
>>>>>>> down the street hacking and slashing and you know that
>>>>>>> you can't out
>>>>>>> run him?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant
>>>>>>> "went mad" and
>>>>>>> shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I
>>>>>>> think) largest
>>>>>>> city.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes you told us about him a little while ago.  And if my
>>>>>> memory is correct, it may not be of course, we talked
>>>>>> about since this guy was an official Army sergeant, him
>>>>>> taking an official M16 military rifle off base was not
>>>>>> too crazy.  Of course it was illegal since military guns
>>>>>> can only be taken off base for official military
>>>>>> operations.  And him murdering people was not official
>>>>>> military protocol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to
>>>>>>> illustrate the
>>>>>>> difference in attitudes between here and there. Had this
>>>>>>> happened in
>>>>>>> the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming
>>>>>>> about them
>>>>>>> there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was
>>>>>>> the matter with
>>>>>>> Him"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Thailand does this mass murdering by an Army sergeant
>>>>>> happen once or twice every single year for the past 20-30
>>>>>> years?  If it happens once, as in your example, then
>>>>>> chalk it up to random events.  But if it happens
>>>>>> regularly as in the USA, then maybe something needs to be
>>>>>> studied and a solution found.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope. Not to say that we don't have shootings. I'm not
>>>>> sure the strict
>>>>> U.S. definition of "mass shootings" but we do have cases
>>>>> of people
>>>>> shooting a whole family.
>>>>
>>>> Russell's point is good: The numbers make a difference.
>>>>
>>>> You've given ONE example of a mass shooting in Thailand. As
>>>> Andrew has noted, in the U.S. "That's Wednesday."
>>>>
>>>> See
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As somebody said years ago, "guns don't shoot people,
>>>>> people shoot
>>>>> people". So why blame guns?
>>>>
>>>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered access
>>>> to rapid fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person
>>>> must pull the trigger to shoot someone; but in other nations
>>>> with more rational policies, people don't shoot people
>>>> nearly as often.
>>>>
>>>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the
>>>> lack of rapid fire arms. That's because things like ARs have
>>>> no practical advantages for civilians.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Except you have no explanation for the staggeringly large numbers of
>>> legally owned weapons (more than humans in USA)...
>>
>> My explanation would be fashion driven by decades of subtle marketing
>> hype. Fear mongering like "You may have to defend your home," product
>> placement in countless NCIS TV shows, ludicrous fantasy posters of a
>> heavily muscled Trump brandishing one...
>>
>>> ... whose owners/operators
>>> are civil, responsible and not engaged in violence.
>>
>> I don't want to give bonus points to the gun culture by saying "Only a
>> small percentage murder people." That's way beyond the liberal "Gold
>> medal for participating!" given to every kid in class.
>>
>> "And Johnny gets a special trophy because he didn't assault his teacher
>> this year!"
>>
>> If we passed out a hand grenade to every household, only a minority
>> would explode them. But it would still be a really stupid idea.
>
> But you are just making things up. No gold medals for participating
> true... but no gold medals for not stealing cars, and no gold medal
> for not robbing banks, and on and on.
>
> I pointed out that bicycles had killed more people - some hundred
> times more, then the terrible "mass shootings" and you dismissed them
> although they were higher then the combat deaths in Vietnam which I
> remind you so terrified the youth of American that they fled the
> country.
>
> And you will leap into the fray, shouting "BUT bicycles have an
> advantage!" Yup, I agree, an advantage in killing people. Think of it,
> 100 times as many dead on bicycles as died in mass shootings.
>
> I think I'll let you keep those advantages. I don't want any part of
> them.