On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 1:01:17 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Quite comically Frank after arguing that high gas prices and the Great Recession occurred during Bush, shows several charts that all plainly show that they occurred entirely during the Obama regime. What do you suppose it is with Frank who offers "proof" for one argument that shows that he was wrong in another argument? The only way I can understand this is if just arguing is his entire point and the truth of something is incidental.

I know facts are not what you want to see Tommy boy. But everyone else likes facts. So here they are.

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gasoline-prices
Click on the 25 Year button. It shows gas prices per liter. Not USA gallons. But prices for gasoline went from about their lowest at the start of Bush2 until reaching the highest in history at the end of Bush2 term in office. Then plummeted at the start of Obama term. Then went up to almost, but not quite, as high as Bush2. Stayed there until the final years of Obama and went down to about 50 cents per liter. Then climbed under Trump to about 75 cents a liter and went up and down a bit and then plummeted in 2020 due to Covid. Then Biden took office and gas prices have been going up and up during his term. Due to the recovery from Covid. They are almost, but not quite as high as Bush2 prices.

Facts, not Tommy lies and delusions.

On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 1:01:17 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Quite comically Frank after arguing that high gas prices and the Great Recession occurred during Bush, shows several charts that all plainly show that they occurred entirely during the Obama regime. What do you suppose it is with Frank who offers "proof" for one argument that shows that he was wrong in another argument? The only way I can understand this is if just arguing is his entire point and the truth of something is incidental.

Sorry. Forgot to comment on Tommy's Great Recession lies and nonsense.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/great-recession.asp#:~:text=The%20Great%20Recession%20was%20the,ensuing%20global%20recession%20in%202009.
"The term Great Recession applies to both the U.S. recession, officially lasting from December 2007 to June 2009, and the ensuing global recession in 2009. "
Obama was president from January 20, 2009 through June 2009. So he was president during the final 5 months of the Great Recession. Bush2 was president during the first 14 months of the Great Recession.

https://www.federalreservehistory.org/essays/great-recession-and-its-aftermath#:~:text=The%202007%2D09%20economic%20crisis,long%20but%20unusually%20slow%20recovery.
"In 2007, losses on mortgage-related financial assets began to cause strains in global financial markets, and in December 2007 the US economy entered a recession."
"While the US economy bottomed out in the middle of 2009, the recovery in the years immediately following was by some measures unusually slow."
This is a website from The Federal Reserve. So you know its got to be right. Federal Reserve knows something about money and the economy. They say the Great Recession went from December 2007 to June 2009 too.

On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 5:51:30 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/viewer.html?pdfurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eia.gov%2Ftotalenergy%2Fdata%2Fmonthly%2Fpdf%2Fsec1_3.pdf&clen=72395&chunk=true
>
> "Table 1.1 Primary Energy Overview
>
> Fossil fuel production in quadrillion BTU's
>
> 2007 56.37
> 2008 57.53
> 2009 56.6
> 2010 58.16
> 2011 60.53
> 2012 62.3
> 2013 64.18
> 2914 69.62
> 2015 70.19
> 2016 65.43
> 2017 68.45
> 2018 75.76
> 2019 81.35
> 2020 75.73
> 2021 70.51"
>
> As you can see there is a slight variation from year to year that mostly has to do with weather. But the SHARP drop in energy production from Biden occurred during one of the coldest winters on record. The drop between 2019 and 2020 was when we were being told we were in the hottest temperatures ever.

Tommy, your link or whatever that is, did not work for me. Microsoft Edge rejected it. But I am going to assume you are talking about natural gas usage in the USA because you use BTU's at the beginning. You are not talking about crude oil. Natural gas is measured by BTU. So you are saying BTU dropped from 2020-21 under Biden when it was cold and we needed more natural gas to heat our houses. And the drop in BTU from 2019-20 was under Trump when it was record hot temperatures. And we would need less natural gas to heat our houses in winter.

OK. Not sure what your point is. But let me be the very first to explain to you that natural gas in the USA is used for residential heating in the northern parts of the USA, AND for electricity production at power plants. USA has been phasing out coal and nuclear electric plants for decades now in favor of natural gas electric plants because its cheaper. So whether its hotter or colder in the winter or summer will affect natural gas usage in furnaces at homes and usage of natural gas in electric power plants. A HOT year could cause less natural gas burned in house furnaces and more gas for electricity burned at the power plant. Air conditioners use electricity. A COLD year could use more gas burned in house furnaces and less gas burned for fuel in electric plants for the air conditioners. See how things can go both ways. No easy direct comparisons and conclusions. Solar power and wind turbines have also become more prevalent over the past few years. So they may cause overall reduction in BTU usage. They are free energy. Zero BTUs.

On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 8:30:05 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Mar 2022 10:55:01 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >On 3/12/2022 4:42 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 2:46:47 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 3/12/2022 2:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 3/12/2022 2:44 PM, sms wrote:
> >>>>> On 3/11/2022 6:21 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <snip>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Â I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S.
> >>>>>> gets from
> >>>>>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what
> >>>>>> the Russians
> >>>>>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for
> >>>>>> the News".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Also, there are currently 9,173 approved and available
> >>>>> permits to drill for oil on federal and Indian lands.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The oil companies decide whether, and when, it makes sense
> >>>>> to use those permits. They don't want to flood the market
> >>>>> with oil, especially when their existing wells, mainly in
> >>>>> Alaska, are already not running at capacity.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's absurd to blame the president, any president, for
> >>>>> gasoline price increases because they have almost no
> >>>>> control over this. That said, Trump, who denied military
> >>>>> aid to Ukraine for personal political gain, who cozied up
> >>>>> to Putin, and who tried to weaken NATO, bears a lot of
> >>>>> responsibility for what is transpiring in Ukraine right now.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't like the high gas prices any more than anyone, but
> >>>>> think of what the people in Ukraine are going through.
> >>>>
> >>>> Some people have different priorities. See
> >>>> https://tinyurl.com/3c7x7y6c
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Cute but the destruction of Ukraine has piss-all to do with
> >>> US fuel prices, our inflation spiral and energy policy (or
> >>> lack thereof).
> >>> --
> >>> Andrew Muzi
> >>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>
> >> February 24, Russia invaded Ukraine. West Texas oil was about $94.88 then. Now it is $109.09. $14 increase in three weeks. About 15% rise.
> >>
> >> https://gasprices.aaa.com/
> >> $4.326 current average gas price. $3.482 one month ago average price. 0.844 increase in one month. 24% increase in gas prices in one month.
> >>
> >> I'd guess there is a real strong correlation with oil prices and gas prices and the invasion of Ukraine. Now I will agree that gas prices and oil prices have been trending upwards for the past 1 plus year. As the economy has improved over the past year and people are returning to normal livelihoods and driving more and more. Demand for gas and oil has increased considerably over the past year plus. Demand increases prices. At least that is what I learned in business school.
> >>
> >
> >Oh good. Then you remember the other side of the equation as
> >well. Which is why regulatory barriers spiked prices well
> >before any current events in Ukraine. If the Ukraine
> >invasion is the cause, please explain Mr Putin's role in Mr
> >Gensler's destruction of oil industry finance, the hysteric
> >EPA new methane rule, extraction permit suppression etc.
> >I'll wait.
> The word "frenzy" or maybe "Irrational" springs to mind. The price of
> gold jewelry in Thailand increased by about 10% literally overnight
> with the Russian invasion of the Ukraine, never mind that the average
> Thai probably can't point out the Ukraine on a map.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

Don't know if I am an average American (probably NOT) but I'll admit I could not have pointed out Ukraine or Belarus on a map of Europe before all this started. Or Moldova. I can point out Turkey and Poland and Greece and Latvia Estonia Lithuania and Kaliningrad. That exclave of Russia on the sea.. But don't ask me to identify which spot is Lithuania Estonia or Latvia. I just know all three are the Baltic countries. Not which is which. But I do know the little triangle piece is Kaliningrad.

On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 9:52:53 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/13/2022 9:31 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 10:49:29 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 3/12/2022 4:29 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 2:44:28 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 3/12/2022 1:44 PM, sms wrote:
> >>>>> On 3/11/2022 6:21 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <snip>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S.
> >>>>>> gets from
> >>>>>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what
> >>>>>> the Russians
> >>>>>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for
> >>>>>> the News".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Also, there are currently 9,173 approved and available
> >>>>> permits to drill for oil on federal and Indian lands.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The oil companies decide whether, and when, it makes sense
> >>>>> to use those permits. They don't want to flood the market
> >>>>> with oil, especially when their existing wells, mainly in
> >>>>> Alaska, are already not running at capacity.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's absurd to blame the president, any president, for
> >>>>> gasoline price increases because they have almost no control
> >>>>> over this. That said, Trump, who denied military aid to
> >>>>> Ukraine for personal political gain, who cozied up to Putin,
> >>>>> and who tried to weaken NATO, bears a lot of responsibility
> >>>>> for what is transpiring in Ukraine right now.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't like the high gas prices any more than anyone, but
> >>>>> think of what the people in Ukraine are going through.
> >>>>>
> >>>> We agree there's no comparison between the suffering in
> >>>> Ukraine and high fuel prices here which have exacerbated our
> >>>> inflationary spiral.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ms Psaki says high fuel pries are to be blamed on Mr Putin.
> >>>> Here are some of the things Mr Putin forced Mr Biden to do:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://americansforprosperity.org/biden-policies-raising-gas-prices/?utm_source=whatcounts&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ntlnewsletter220312
> >>>> --
> >>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>
> >>> Andy, your link above is one of Tommy's unbiased, neutral, honest sites. Ha Ha. Some examples from the article.
> >>>
> >>> "Last spring, Biden signed a resolution that overturned Trump administration reforms to EPA oil and gas rules. This resolution will worsen energy poverty, reestablish burdensome regulations, and have a disproportionate impact on small businesses."
> >>> So Biden is reestablishing burdensome regulations, but Trump put in reforms? Anything biased there? The above quote is in a section talking about new regulations governing methane emissions. Its a crime to decrease methane. We should have more methane. Andy, do you think it would be good if we sealed your shop and filled it with methane gas? Actually you can do that by removing the traps from your plumbing and letting the methane gas from the sewer system come back into your shop. Isn't methane good?
> >>>
> >>> "The president also has rescinded Endangered Species Act reforms"
> >>> So they were reforms when Trump changed the Endangered Species Act laws. But bad Biden rescinded these reforms. And changed the laws BACK to saving endangered animals and plants.
> >>>
> >>> "In April 2021, without the consent of Congress, Biden rejoined the Paris agreement, which will result in onerous new regulations that could raise energy costs."
> >>> Bad Biden joined up with them Frenchies again. France is evil. The USA should not do anything with the French. We should leave NATO and the G7. France is in them too. And the UN Security Council too. Bad France. Personally, I think its best to cooperate. Fighting and killing, as Russia is doing to Ukraine, is bad for everyone. Better to agree and work together. But this article is probably right. We should fight and kill and attack France and Europe. And leave NATO as Trump threatened to do numerous times. World would be much safer then.
> >>>
> >>> "The EPA has issued a final rule to phase out a common, inexpensive refrigerant. This policy is a de facto tax on air conditioning and refrigeration."
> >>> Freon gas causes damage to the ozone, environment. Its being replaced with less dangerous gases. Kind of like lead was removed from gas back in the 1970s. And asbestos was removed as insulation a long time ago. I'd say these are improvements.
> >>>
> >>> "In May 2021, Biden issued a sweeping executive order that mobilized federal agencies, including the Securities and Exchange Commission, to enforce mandates on businesses, insurers, retirement funds, and suppliers. These policies will stifle innovation critical to improving the environment and will increase costs for a wide variety of businesses."
> >>> This one is funny. Evil Biden is restricting and stifling "businesses, insurers, retirement funds, and suppliers" from improving the environment.. That's rich.
> >>>
> >>> "The Biden administration has changed key inputs for economic and regulatory analysis, including raising the “social cost†of greenhouse gases. These policies will mask the true consumer cost of regulatory actions.."
> >>> Sounds like evil Biden is looking at how many people will be killed and how much damage the world will sustain instead of how much money my Republican Trump buddies can make/steal. Wow, that must be tragic.
> >>>
> >>> "The EPA also has mandated that even facilities with reduced emissions must remain on the list of “major†sources, subjecting these facilities to permitting burdens and higher costs."
> >>> This one is rich too. So the writer of the article thinks people/facilities who follow the law, and reduce emissions, should be exempt from having to follow the law. Kind of like saying people who don't get speeding tickets, can speed and break the law when they want.
> >>>
> >>> "The Build Back Better agenda includes new taxes on natural gas and home heating. It also includes new taxes on petroleum and manufacturing."
> >>> MT GOD!!!!!!!!!!! Trying to pass legislation that is actually paid for???????? What a crazy concept. Better to borrow borrow borrow like Reagan, Bush, Trump. And cut taxes too. BIGGER Federal deficits. NO NEW TAXES ever to pay for anything. Doesn't Biden know how to run a government? Borrow Borrow Borrow. Never ever ever tax anything.
> >>>
> >> You're welcome to your opinion but describing the prior
> >> administration's regulatory relief of the extraction
> >> industries as 'reforms' is apt - the result was higher
> >> production, lower prices both of which flow directly into a
> >> healthy economy (paid any freight bills lately?).
> >>
> >> Moreover, on net the earth is better for USA extraction
> >> industries versus the much more destructive processes of our
> >> enemies- from whom we are now buying energy.
> >>
> >> And so on through your list. Facts matter, or ought to,
> >> while analyses may, and do, vary. YMMV.
> >>
> >> Back to my point, please explain how any of the events and
> >> policy failures listed and the resulting energy driven
> >> inflation is the fault of Mr Putin. I'll wait.
> >
> > "policy failures"? Sounds like you have swallowed the opinions of those who wrote the article in your link. Some might say the Trump changes to the original policies was the failure.
> >
> > "resulting energy driven inflation"
> > Is inflation being driven by energy prices? Energy prices are contributing a small amount to the rise in inflation. Below is a link for the latest February 2022 inflation rate of 7.9%. Please note that energy is up 25.6% over the last 12 months. This includes gasoline, fuel oil, electricity and natural gas. I do not know how much of the total 7.9% inflation is due to energy price increases. A small portion probably. 1-2% of the 7.9% is due to energy inflation. Some of the other categories of the inflation are food and used cars. You can claim higher fuel costs increase the price of food due to transportation costs. But used car price increases? Higher gasoline or other energies does not make used cars higher priced. So I would say "energy driven inflation" is an exaggeration.
> >
> > https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cpi.pdf
> > Please see Table A on page 2.
> >
> > "fault of Mr. Putin"
> > Not all, and not even much of the recent inflation is due to Mr. Putin. His latest attempt to destroy Ukraine has spooked the oil market and driven up oil prices in recent weeks. That has contributed to the rise in gasoline prices. Some. But the now 2 year Covid economic crash and recovery is the reason for almost all of the inflation appearing now. The world economy stopped from about March 2020 to November 2020. And it has slowly returned to sort of normal since. Lots more jobs. Lots more buying of goods. Covid shut down factories and made raw materials hard to source today. More demand today than supply. Result is higher inflation. Putin can only be blamed for a little of the gasoline increases in the past month or so. I believe in another post in this thread I showed the rise in oil commodity price since Putin invaded Ukraine. 15% rise in oil commodity prices since Ukraine invaded. 24% increase in gasoline prices.
> >
> >
> >
> The energy cost increases led this inflationary episode well
> before the Ukraine tragedy, despite the Administration
> blaming inflation over the last 6~8 months on Mr Putin's
> actions from mid-February.

Am 13.03.2022 um 00:13 schrieb John B.:
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 11:05:55 +0100, Rolf Mantel
> <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>
>> Am 12.03.2022 um 06:17 schrieb John B.:
>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 22:00:35 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/11/2022 8:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 19:42:34 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/11/2022 6:49 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 07:49:56 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 10:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:34:40 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:12:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or what?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the society.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll give you...".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sheesh!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hospital, suggested fusing two vertebrae as a probably cure for his
>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know what they are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> talking about".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer work - he was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he finally, after
>>>>>>>>>>>>> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two vertebrae.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long time ago and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He used to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As I noted, a mixed bag. My two Senators are as far apart
>>>>>>>>>>>> politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
>>>>>>>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://revealnews.org/article/alarm-over-wisconsin-vas-troubles-follows-years-of-complaints/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I read that reference and it seemed to me that it was largely about a
>>>>>>>>>>> single individual, a "chief of staff, psychiatrist Dr. David Houlihan"
>>>>>>>>>>> who seems to have subscribed substantial amounts of "opiates" and "bad
>>>>>>>>>>> mouthed" those who "bad mouthed" him. But all of the complaints seem
>>>>>>>>>>> to come from non-medically qualified people. i.e., not other doctors
>>>>>>>>>>> on the staff.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Not to argue right or wrong, but I wonder what the patients had to
>>>>>>>>>>> say?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The dead ones didn't have much to add. It seems, as with the
>>>>>>>>>> Indian Health Service pederasts, that management knew they
>>>>>>>>>> had a problem but between civil service rules and general
>>>>>>>>>> cowardice, did nothing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Indian Health? I thought it was a VA Hospital (:-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But as I said, did anyone ask the patients? Or the patients families?
>>>>>>>>> Not really an argument but what was the result of this "excess
>>>>>>>>> medication" to the patient or his or her's family?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes the article mentions "overdose" but an "overdose" is "more then
>>>>>>>>> the prescribed dose", is it not.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But, more to the point, read the actual I.G. Report. It reads to me,
>>>>>>>>> at least, like a bunch of disgruntled pharmacist who made a loud noise
>>>>>>>>> about what the doctor was prescribing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But, more to the point, the Summations and Conclusions of the report
>>>>>>>>> state:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "We did not substantiate the majority of the allegations ,made in the
>>>>>>>>> various complaints received... and... "Although allegations dealing
>>>>>>>>> with overuse of narcotics at the facility may have some merit they do
>>>>>>>>> not constitute evidence of wrongdoing. We did not find any conclusive
>>>>>>>>> evidence affirming criminal activity, gross clinical incompetence or
>>>>>>>>> negligence or administrative practices illegal or violated personnel
>>>>>>>>> policies".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here's what DVA says :
>>>>>>>> https://www.disabledveterans.org/2015/02/25/wisconsin-va-opioid-scandal-hits-national-news/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yup, I read that and there is a certain amount of "Oh My God! Ain't It
>>>>>>> Awful!" written there. One Veteran was described as " taking over one
>>>>>>> dozen drugs" Oh! My! Goodness!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But right now, today, I am taking 9 pills in the morning, 3 after
>>>>>>> supper and 2 before I go to bed at night. For 3 different physical
>>>>>>> problems.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But, more to the point, has anyone asked the patients what they think.
>>>>>>> Or their parents, wife, etc?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know the particulars but it garnered a lot of
>>>>>> attention at the time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, these things often do. I read AlJazeera news which seems to
>>>>> report facts but usually presents them in a very partial manner. I
>>>>> read about The U.S. saying hat they wouldn't buy crude from Russia.
>>>>> The news articles made it sound like this would be a major happening -
>>>>> "We'll get them Ruskies!"
>>>>>
>>>>> I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S. gets from
>>>>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what the Russians
>>>>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for the News".
>>>>>
>>>> Nor are there stops on cash flows in or out of Russia and
>>>> Russian banks. The radio news just replays the 45-1/2th
>>>> President blathering about 'severe sanctions' which isn't true.
>>>
>>> Added to that I just read that Germany refused to have anything to do
>>> with The U.S. fuel scheme. And, I suspect that the rest of Europe will
>>> follow. See
>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1201743/russian-gas-dependence-in-europe-by-country/
>>
>> Actually, the EU-wide decision was to reduce volumes by 2/3 this year
>> and go down to zero within 5 years. This was aligned with the US.
>>
>> It's a difficult decision whether it's better to buy oil from Inran,
>> Russia or Venezuela (supposedly the Iran sanctions were about to be
>> lifted but with the invasion, Russia blocked their part of the deal).
>
> My reference was to natural gas and how can Germany, for example, that
> now gets something like half of the gas they use from Russian going to
> reduce that to zero? Buy it from the U.S. at much higher
> transportation cost then the Russian pipeline(s)?

Am 14.03.2022 um 03:12 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
> On 3/13/2022 9:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Mar 2022 10:55:01 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/12/2022 4:42 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 2:46:47 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 3/12/2022 2:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 2:44 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/11/2022 6:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Â I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S.
>>>>>>>> gets from
>>>>>>>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what
>>>>>>>> the Russians
>>>>>>>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for
>>>>>>>> the News".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, there are currently 9,173 approved and available
>>>>>>> permits to drill for oil on federal and Indian lands.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The oil companies decide whether, and when, it makes sense
>>>>>>> to use those permits. They don't want to flood the market
>>>>>>> with oil, especially when their existing wells, mainly in
>>>>>>> Alaska, are already not running at capacity.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's absurd to blame the president, any president, for
>>>>>>> gasoline price increases because they have almost no
>>>>>>> control over this. That said, Trump, who denied military
>>>>>>> aid to Ukraine for personal political gain, who cozied up
>>>>>>> to Putin, and who tried to weaken NATO, bears a lot of
>>>>>>> responsibility for what is transpiring in Ukraine right now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't like the high gas prices any more than anyone, but
>>>>>>> think of what the people in Ukraine are going through.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some people have different priorities. See
>>>>>> https://tinyurl.com/3c7x7y6c
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Cute but the destruction of Ukraine has piss-all to do with
>>>>> US fuel prices, our inflation spiral and energy policy (or
>>>>> lack thereof).
>>>>> --
>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>
>>>> February 24, Russia invaded Ukraine.  West Texas oil was about
>>>> $94.88 then.  Now it is $109.09.  $14 increase in three weeks.
>>>> About 15% rise.
>>>>
>>>> https://gasprices.aaa.com/
>>>> $4.326 current average gas price.  $3.482 one month ago average
>>>> price.  0.844 increase in one month.  24% increase in gas prices in
>>>> one month.
>>>>
>>>> I'd guess there is a real strong correlation with oil prices and gas
>>>> prices and the invasion of Ukraine.  Now I will agree that gas
>>>> prices and oil prices have been trending upwards for the past 1 plus
>>>> year.  As the economy has improved over the past year and people are
>>>> returning to normal livelihoods and driving more and more.  Demand
>>>> for gas and oil has increased considerably over the past year plus.
>>>> Demand increases prices.  At least that is what I learned in
>>>> business school.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Oh good. Then you remember the other side of the equation as
>>> well. Which is why regulatory barriers spiked prices well
>>> before any current events in Ukraine. If the Ukraine
>>> invasion is the cause, please explain Mr Putin's role in Mr
>>> Gensler's destruction of oil industry finance, the hysteric
>>> EPA new methane rule, extraction permit suppression etc.
>>> I'll wait.
>>
>> The word "frenzy" or maybe "Irrational" springs to mind. The price of
>> gold jewelry in Thailand increased by about 10% literally overnight
>> with the Russian invasion of the Ukraine, never mind that the average
>> Thai probably can't point out the Ukraine on a map.
>
> And for a related example of "irrational":
>
> Hey, let's all rush out and buy toilet paper!

In Europe, the latest "toilet paper" is sunflower oil (olive oil is
easily obtainable).

On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 10:39:40 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>
> Not long after, we were invited to a faculty party. On being introduced
> to and chatting with another "faculty wife" for a bit, my wife asked
> "And what do you do?" The response was more than a little defensive:
> "I'm just a homemaker." I told my wife she had to be careful asking that
> question of other women.

Overheard at a dinner party:
Q: "so, what do you do?"
A: "about what?"

On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 7:52:53 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/13/2022 9:31 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 10:49:29 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 3/12/2022 4:29 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 2:44:28 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 3/12/2022 1:44 PM, sms wrote:
> >>>>> On 3/11/2022 6:21 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <snip>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S.
> >>>>>> gets from
> >>>>>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what
> >>>>>> the Russians
> >>>>>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for
> >>>>>> the News".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Also, there are currently 9,173 approved and available
> >>>>> permits to drill for oil on federal and Indian lands.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The oil companies decide whether, and when, it makes sense
> >>>>> to use those permits. They don't want to flood the market
> >>>>> with oil, especially when their existing wells, mainly in
> >>>>> Alaska, are already not running at capacity.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's absurd to blame the president, any president, for
> >>>>> gasoline price increases because they have almost no control
> >>>>> over this. That said, Trump, who denied military aid to
> >>>>> Ukraine for personal political gain, who cozied up to Putin,
> >>>>> and who tried to weaken NATO, bears a lot of responsibility
> >>>>> for what is transpiring in Ukraine right now.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't like the high gas prices any more than anyone, but
> >>>>> think of what the people in Ukraine are going through.
> >>>>>
> >>>> We agree there's no comparison between the suffering in
> >>>> Ukraine and high fuel prices here which have exacerbated our
> >>>> inflationary spiral.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ms Psaki says high fuel pries are to be blamed on Mr Putin.
> >>>> Here are some of the things Mr Putin forced Mr Biden to do:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://americansforprosperity.org/biden-policies-raising-gas-prices/?utm_source=whatcounts&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ntlnewsletter220312
> >>>> --
> >>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>
> >>> Andy, your link above is one of Tommy's unbiased, neutral, honest sites. Ha Ha. Some examples from the article.
> >>>
> >>> "Last spring, Biden signed a resolution that overturned Trump administration reforms to EPA oil and gas rules. This resolution will worsen energy poverty, reestablish burdensome regulations, and have a disproportionate impact on small businesses."
> >>> So Biden is reestablishing burdensome regulations, but Trump put in reforms? Anything biased there? The above quote is in a section talking about new regulations governing methane emissions. Its a crime to decrease methane. We should have more methane. Andy, do you think it would be good if we sealed your shop and filled it with methane gas? Actually you can do that by removing the traps from your plumbing and letting the methane gas from the sewer system come back into your shop. Isn't methane good?
> >>>
> >>> "The president also has rescinded Endangered Species Act reforms"
> >>> So they were reforms when Trump changed the Endangered Species Act laws. But bad Biden rescinded these reforms. And changed the laws BACK to saving endangered animals and plants.
> >>>
> >>> "In April 2021, without the consent of Congress, Biden rejoined the Paris agreement, which will result in onerous new regulations that could raise energy costs."
> >>> Bad Biden joined up with them Frenchies again. France is evil. The USA should not do anything with the French. We should leave NATO and the G7. France is in them too. And the UN Security Council too. Bad France. Personally, I think its best to cooperate. Fighting and killing, as Russia is doing to Ukraine, is bad for everyone. Better to agree and work together. But this article is probably right. We should fight and kill and attack France and Europe. And leave NATO as Trump threatened to do numerous times. World would be much safer then.
> >>>
> >>> "The EPA has issued a final rule to phase out a common, inexpensive refrigerant. This policy is a de facto tax on air conditioning and refrigeration."
> >>> Freon gas causes damage to the ozone, environment. Its being replaced with less dangerous gases. Kind of like lead was removed from gas back in the 1970s. And asbestos was removed as insulation a long time ago. I'd say these are improvements.
> >>>
> >>> "In May 2021, Biden issued a sweeping executive order that mobilized federal agencies, including the Securities and Exchange Commission, to enforce mandates on businesses, insurers, retirement funds, and suppliers. These policies will stifle innovation critical to improving the environment and will increase costs for a wide variety of businesses."
> >>> This one is funny. Evil Biden is restricting and stifling "businesses, insurers, retirement funds, and suppliers" from improving the environment.. That's rich.
> >>>
> >>> "The Biden administration has changed key inputs for economic and regulatory analysis, including raising the “social cost†of greenhouse gases. These policies will mask the true consumer cost of regulatory actions.."
> >>> Sounds like evil Biden is looking at how many people will be killed and how much damage the world will sustain instead of how much money my Republican Trump buddies can make/steal. Wow, that must be tragic.
> >>>
> >>> "The EPA also has mandated that even facilities with reduced emissions must remain on the list of “major†sources, subjecting these facilities to permitting burdens and higher costs."
> >>> This one is rich too. So the writer of the article thinks people/facilities who follow the law, and reduce emissions, should be exempt from having to follow the law. Kind of like saying people who don't get speeding tickets, can speed and break the law when they want.
> >>>
> >>> "The Build Back Better agenda includes new taxes on natural gas and home heating. It also includes new taxes on petroleum and manufacturing."
> >>> MT GOD!!!!!!!!!!! Trying to pass legislation that is actually paid for???????? What a crazy concept. Better to borrow borrow borrow like Reagan, Bush, Trump. And cut taxes too. BIGGER Federal deficits. NO NEW TAXES ever to pay for anything. Doesn't Biden know how to run a government? Borrow Borrow Borrow. Never ever ever tax anything.
> >>>
> >> You're welcome to your opinion but describing the prior
> >> administration's regulatory relief of the extraction
> >> industries as 'reforms' is apt - the result was higher
> >> production, lower prices both of which flow directly into a
> >> healthy economy (paid any freight bills lately?).
> >>
> >> Moreover, on net the earth is better for USA extraction
> >> industries versus the much more destructive processes of our
> >> enemies- from whom we are now buying energy.
> >>
> >> And so on through your list. Facts matter, or ought to,
> >> while analyses may, and do, vary. YMMV.
> >>
> >> Back to my point, please explain how any of the events and
> >> policy failures listed and the resulting energy driven
> >> inflation is the fault of Mr Putin. I'll wait.
> >
> > "policy failures"? Sounds like you have swallowed the opinions of those who wrote the article in your link. Some might say the Trump changes to the original policies was the failure.
> >
> > "resulting energy driven inflation"
> > Is inflation being driven by energy prices? Energy prices are contributing a small amount to the rise in inflation. Below is a link for the latest February 2022 inflation rate of 7.9%. Please note that energy is up 25.6% over the last 12 months. This includes gasoline, fuel oil, electricity and natural gas. I do not know how much of the total 7.9% inflation is due to energy price increases. A small portion probably. 1-2% of the 7.9% is due to energy inflation. Some of the other categories of the inflation are food and used cars. You can claim higher fuel costs increase the price of food due to transportation costs. But used car price increases? Higher gasoline or other energies does not make used cars higher priced. So I would say "energy driven inflation" is an exaggeration.
> >
> > https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cpi.pdf
> > Please see Table A on page 2.
> >
> > "fault of Mr. Putin"
> > Not all, and not even much of the recent inflation is due to Mr. Putin. His latest attempt to destroy Ukraine has spooked the oil market and driven up oil prices in recent weeks. That has contributed to the rise in gasoline prices. Some. But the now 2 year Covid economic crash and recovery is the reason for almost all of the inflation appearing now. The world economy stopped from about March 2020 to November 2020. And it has slowly returned to sort of normal since. Lots more jobs. Lots more buying of goods. Covid shut down factories and made raw materials hard to source today. More demand today than supply. Result is higher inflation. Putin can only be blamed for a little of the gasoline increases in the past month or so. I believe in another post in this thread I showed the rise in oil commodity price since Putin invaded Ukraine. 15% rise in oil commodity prices since Ukraine invaded. 24% increase in gasoline prices.
> >
> >
> >
> The energy cost increases led this inflationary episode well
> before the Ukraine tragedy, despite the Administration
> blaming inflation over the last 6~8 months on Mr Putin's
> actions from mid-February.
>
> https://wolfstreet.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/US-Crude-oil-WTI-price-2022-03-01.png
>
> As you note, energy increases of over 100% in crude increase
> nearly every other product and service but not in a linear
> manner as other industries have a higher or lower energy
> component but not 100%.
>
> Wheat farmers pay more for diesel and for fertilizer, grain
> mills pay more to run dryers and for milling. Much packaging
> is processed ethylene. All steps incur transportation cost
> increases. Bakeries pay higher oven heat, machine energy and
> delivery bills. Each component passes on higher energy costs
> at each step. Bread does not increase by the same 100% as
> energy only, but it must increase.

On 3/14/2022 2:22 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> https://www.macrotrends.net/2478/natural-gas-prices-historical-chart
> If you click on the 20 year chart you see that natural gas prices have skyrocketed since 2020. But you will also see that the current increase is simply a repeat of what occurred in 2009 and 2012 and 2016.

We're supposed to pay no attention to the price of natural gas during,
say, Bush's terms. Or the drop during Obama's terms.

And we're supposed to believe that if only we had re-elected an orange
president, the economic recovery from COVID would have been
instantaneous, with no evidence that anything unusual had ever happened.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/14/2022 6:13 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 13.03.2022 um 00:13 schrieb John B.:
>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 11:05:55 +0100, Rolf Mantel
>> <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 12.03.2022 um 06:17 schrieb John B.:
>>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 22:00:35 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/11/2022 8:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 19:42:34 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/11/2022 6:49 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 07:49:56 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 10:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:34:40 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:12:47 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but upthread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> real data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> concentrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> national program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> under the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capita tend to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using any one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crime rates,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states tend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> election of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only 1,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with poorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Party or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Statewide,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major parties.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Social Security,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> food and housing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> memory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> U.S., and free
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Security, etc., are not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Public"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their citizens?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or what?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> true in most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the citizenry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the society.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussed.I stated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Public." and that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Elect me and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll give you...".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sheesh!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what might be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had an uncle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years after and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe, was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hospital, suggested fusing two  vertebrae as a probably
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cure for his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what they are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talking about".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work - he was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finally, after
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vertebrae.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time ago and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I noted, a mixed bag.  My two Senators are as far apart
>>>>>>>>>>>>> politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://revealnews.org/article/alarm-over-wisconsin-vas-troubles-follows-years-of-complaints/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I read that reference and it seemed to me that it was
>>>>>>>>>>>> largely about a
>>>>>>>>>>>> single individual, a "chief of staff, psychiatrist Dr. David
>>>>>>>>>>>> Houlihan"
>>>>>>>>>>>> who seems to have subscribed substantial amounts of
>>>>>>>>>>>> "opiates" and "bad
>>>>>>>>>>>> mouthed" those who "bad mouthed" him. But all of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> complaints seem
>>>>>>>>>>>> to come from non-medically qualified people. i.e., not other
>>>>>>>>>>>> doctors
>>>>>>>>>>>> on the staff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not to argue right or wrong, but I wonder what the patients
>>>>>>>>>>>> had to
>>>>>>>>>>>> say?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The dead ones didn't have much to add. It seems, as with the
>>>>>>>>>>> Indian Health Service pederasts, that management knew they
>>>>>>>>>>> had a problem but between civil service rules and general
>>>>>>>>>>> cowardice, did nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Indian Health? I thought it was  a VA Hospital (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But as I said, did anyone ask the patients? Or the patients
>>>>>>>>>> families?
>>>>>>>>>> Not really an argument but what was the result of this "excess
>>>>>>>>>> medication" to the patient or his or her's family?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes the article mentions "overdose" but an "overdose" is "more
>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>> the prescribed dose", is it not.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But, more to the point, read the actual I.G. Report. It reads
>>>>>>>>>> to me,
>>>>>>>>>> at least, like a bunch of disgruntled pharmacist who made a
>>>>>>>>>> loud noise
>>>>>>>>>> about what the doctor was prescribing.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But, more to the point, the Summations and Conclusions of the
>>>>>>>>>> report
>>>>>>>>>> state:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "We did not substantiate the majority of the allegations ,made
>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>> various complaints received... and... "Although allegations
>>>>>>>>>> dealing
>>>>>>>>>> with overuse of narcotics at the facility may have some merit
>>>>>>>>>> they do
>>>>>>>>>> not constitute evidence of wrongdoing. We did not find any
>>>>>>>>>> conclusive
>>>>>>>>>> evidence affirming criminal activity, gross clinical
>>>>>>>>>> incompetence or
>>>>>>>>>> negligence or administrative practices illegal or violated
>>>>>>>>>> personnel
>>>>>>>>>> policies".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here's what DVA says :
>>>>>>>>> https://www.disabledveterans.org/2015/02/25/wisconsin-va-opioid-scandal-hits-national-news/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yup, I read that and there is a certain amount of "Oh My God!
>>>>>>>> Ain't It
>>>>>>>> Awful!" written there. One Veteran was described as " taking
>>>>>>>> over one
>>>>>>>> dozen drugs" Oh! My! Goodness!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But right now, today, I am taking 9 pills in the morning, 3 after
>>>>>>>> supper and 2 before I go to bed at night. For 3 different physical
>>>>>>>> problems.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But, more to the point, has anyone asked the patients what they
>>>>>>>> think.
>>>>>>>> Or their parents, wife, etc?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know the particulars but it garnered a lot of
>>>>>>> attention at the time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, these things often do. I read AlJazeera news which seems to
>>>>>> report facts but usually presents them in a very partial manner. I
>>>>>> read about The U.S. saying hat they wouldn't buy crude from Russia.
>>>>>> The news articles made it sound like this would be a major
>>>>>> happening -
>>>>>> "We'll get them Ruskies!"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S. gets from
>>>>>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what the
>>>>>> Russians
>>>>>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for the News".
>>>>>>
>>>>> Nor are there stops on cash flows in or out of Russia and
>>>>> Russian banks. The radio news just replays the 45-1/2th
>>>>> President blathering about 'severe sanctions' which isn't true.
>>>>
>>>> Added to that I just read that Germany refused to have anything to do
>>>> with The U.S. fuel scheme. And, I suspect that the rest of Europe will
>>>> follow. See
>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1201743/russian-gas-dependence-in-europe-by-country/
>>>>
>>>
>>> Actually, the EU-wide decision was to reduce volumes by 2/3 this year
>>> and go down to zero within 5 years.  This was aligned with the US.
>>>
>>> It's a difficult decision whether it's better to buy oil from Inran,
>>> Russia or Venezuela (supposedly the Iran sanctions were about to be
>>> lifted but with the invasion, Russia blocked their part of the deal).
>>
>> My reference was to natural gas and how can Germany, for example, that
>> now gets something like half of the gas they use from Russian going to
>> reduce that to zero? Buy it from the U.S. at much higher
>> transportation cost then the Russian pipeline(s)?
>
> I guess it's similar with oil, gas (also coal and uranium).  Stopping
> completely at no notice will kill the economy, weaning off as you
> organize other sources is a possibility.  Germany is not the only major
> European country relying on Ruassin gas, Italy has been just as
> dependent (several smaller countries are even 100% dependent on Russian
> gas).
> With an optimistic weather assumption, the German gas piles should get
> us through September or October, we need new sources (Quatar? Iran? Coal
> from Australia at double the price?) by then.  For Electricity
> generation, there's a certain amount of flexibility which fuels we burn.
>
> Rolf

On 3/13/2022 11:34 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Mar 2022 10:05:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Most of these fires are NOT accidental but from deliberate sabotage.
>> There is natural gas that is vented downwind so all someone has to
>> do is approach in the dead of night
>
> Baloney. Natural gas is lighter than air and will rise. If the
> leaking gas column is at the water line, the gas will rapidly diffuse
> to a concentration less than the 5 to 15% fuel/air mixture needed for
> combustion. Your hypothetical midnight arsonist would need to capture
> some of the leaking gas, mix it with the optimum stoichiometric volume
> of air, and ignite the mix without becoming a suicide bomber. Even
> so, the resulting explosion would probably not ignite the surrounding
> gas.
>
>> - often in these privately funded mini-submarines and light this
>> vented gas. If you look at the reports of the investigations of
>> these fires there are very few other explanations.
>
> Got any links to examples of mini-subs and mysterious oil platform
> fires? I found a few accusations of sabotage, but no real evidence or
> convictions. Also, no mention of mini-submarines:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=oil+platform+fire+sabotage>
>
> [ 15 mins wasted while eating a late dinner ]
>

With a long history of rank incompetence, corruption and
political placements in management,PEMEX is not new to these
problems.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/12/2022 2:42 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:

<snip>

> I'd guess there is a real strong correlation with oil prices and gas prices and the invasion of Ukraine. Now I will agree that gas prices and oil prices have been trending upwards for the past 1 plus year. As the economy has improved over the past year and people are returning to normal livelihoods and driving more and more. Demand for gas and oil has increased considerably over the past year plus. Demand increases prices. At least that is what I learned in business school.

When it comes to oil companies, the "law of supply and demand" is a
little different.

Robert Klein explained it well in his "Mind Over Matter" segment, see
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWFeD8svMzw&t=1353s>.
"We have all the supply so we can demand whatever the f%$k we want."

Am 14.03.2022 um 16:44 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
> On 3/14/2022 6:13 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 13.03.2022 um 00:13 schrieb John B.:
>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 11:05:55 +0100, Rolf Mantel
>>> <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Am 12.03.2022 um 06:17 schrieb John B.:
>>>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 22:00:35 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/11/2022 8:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 19:42:34 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2022 6:49 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 07:49:56 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 10:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:34:40 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:12:47 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> control good".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but upthread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> real data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> concentrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> national program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> under the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capita tend to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using any one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crime rates,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states tend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> election of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels, only 1,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with poorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Party or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Statewide,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statewide has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major parties.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Public.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Social Security,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it), food and housing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our memory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cents U.S., and free
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Security, etc., are not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Public"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their citizens?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or what?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is true in most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> benefit for the citizenry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the society.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussed.I stated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Public." and that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Elect me and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll give you...".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sheesh!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had what might be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had an uncle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years after and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe, was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deficiencies which became national news while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vet's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hospital, suggested fusing two  vertebrae as a probably
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cure for his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what they are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talking about".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work - he was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finally, after
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vertebrae.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time ago and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I noted, a mixed bag.  My two Senators are as far apart
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://revealnews.org/article/alarm-over-wisconsin-vas-troubles-follows-years-of-complaints/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I read that reference and it seemed to me that it was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> largely about a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> single individual, a "chief of staff, psychiatrist Dr.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Houlihan"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who seems to have subscribed substantial amounts of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "opiates" and "bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouthed" those who "bad mouthed" him. But all of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaints seem
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to come from non-medically qualified people. i.e., not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other doctors
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the staff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not to argue right or wrong, but I wonder what the patients
>>>>>>>>>>>>> had to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> say?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The dead ones didn't have much to add. It seems, as with the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Indian Health Service pederasts, that management knew they
>>>>>>>>>>>> had a problem but between civil service rules and general
>>>>>>>>>>>> cowardice, did nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Indian Health? I thought it was  a VA Hospital (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But as I said, did anyone ask the patients? Or the patients
>>>>>>>>>>> families?
>>>>>>>>>>> Not really an argument but what was the result of this "excess
>>>>>>>>>>> medication" to the patient or his or her's family?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes the article mentions "overdose" but an "overdose" is
>>>>>>>>>>> "more then
>>>>>>>>>>> the prescribed dose", is it not.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But, more to the point, read the actual I.G. Report. It reads
>>>>>>>>>>> to me,
>>>>>>>>>>> at least, like a bunch of disgruntled pharmacist who made a
>>>>>>>>>>> loud noise
>>>>>>>>>>> about what the doctor was prescribing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But, more to the point, the Summations and Conclusions of the
>>>>>>>>>>> report
>>>>>>>>>>> state:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "We did not substantiate the majority of the allegations
>>>>>>>>>>> ,made in the
>>>>>>>>>>> various complaints received... and... "Although allegations
>>>>>>>>>>> dealing
>>>>>>>>>>> with overuse of narcotics at the facility may have some merit
>>>>>>>>>>> they do
>>>>>>>>>>> not constitute evidence of wrongdoing. We did not find any
>>>>>>>>>>> conclusive
>>>>>>>>>>> evidence affirming criminal activity, gross clinical
>>>>>>>>>>> incompetence or
>>>>>>>>>>> negligence or administrative practices illegal or violated
>>>>>>>>>>> personnel
>>>>>>>>>>> policies".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Here's what DVA says :
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.disabledveterans.org/2015/02/25/wisconsin-va-opioid-scandal-hits-national-news/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yup, I read that and there is a certain amount of "Oh My God!
>>>>>>>>> Ain't It
>>>>>>>>> Awful!" written there. One Veteran was described as " taking
>>>>>>>>> over one
>>>>>>>>> dozen drugs" Oh! My! Goodness!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But right now, today, I am taking 9 pills in the morning, 3 after
>>>>>>>>> supper and 2 before I go to bed at night. For 3 different physical
>>>>>>>>> problems.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But, more to the point, has anyone asked the patients what they
>>>>>>>>> think.
>>>>>>>>> Or their parents, wife, etc?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know the particulars but it garnered a lot of
>>>>>>>> attention at the time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, these things often do. I read AlJazeera news which seems to
>>>>>>> report facts but usually presents them in a very partial manner. I
>>>>>>> read about The U.S. saying hat they wouldn't buy crude from Russia.
>>>>>>> The news articles made it sound like this would be a major
>>>>>>> happening -
>>>>>>> "We'll get them Ruskies!"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     I did a bit of research and the amount of oil the U.S. gets from
>>>>>>> Russia is a tiny percentage of what the U.S. uses or what the
>>>>>>> Russians
>>>>>>> produce. So the threat seems to be largely "something for the News".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nor are there stops on cash flows in or out of Russia and
>>>>>> Russian banks. The radio news just replays the 45-1/2th
>>>>>> President blathering about 'severe sanctions' which isn't true.
>>>>>
>>>>> Added to that I just read that Germany refused to have anything to do
>>>>> with The U.S. fuel scheme. And, I suspect that the rest of Europe will
>>>>> follow. See
>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1201743/russian-gas-dependence-in-europe-by-country/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Actually, the EU-wide decision was to reduce volumes by 2/3 this year
>>>> and go down to zero within 5 years.  This was aligned with the US.
>>>>
>>>> It's a difficult decision whether it's better to buy oil from Inran,
>>>> Russia or Venezuela (supposedly the Iran sanctions were about to be
>>>> lifted but with the invasion, Russia blocked their part of the deal).
>>>
>>> My reference was to natural gas and how can Germany, for example, that
>>> now gets something like half of the gas they use from Russian going to
>>> reduce that to zero? Buy it from the U.S. at much higher
>>> transportation cost then the Russian pipeline(s)?
>>
>> I guess it's similar with oil, gas (also coal and uranium).  Stopping
>> completely at no notice will kill the economy, weaning off as you
>> organize other sources is a possibility.  Germany is not the only
>> major European country relying on Ruassin gas, Italy has been just as
>> dependent (several smaller countries are even 100% dependent on
>> Russian gas).
>> With an optimistic weather assumption, the German gas piles should get
>> us through September or October, we need new sources (Quatar? Iran?
>> Coal from Australia at double the price?) by then.  For Electricity
>> generation, there's a certain amount of flexibility which fuels we burn.
>
> I'm wondering if Germany will reconsider its rejection of nuclear power.

On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 9:05:44 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/13/2022 11:34 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Sun, 13 Mar 2022 10:05:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Most of these fires are NOT accidental but from deliberate sabotage.
> >> There is natural gas that is vented downwind so all someone has to
> >> do is approach in the dead of night
> >
> > Baloney. Natural gas is lighter than air and will rise. If the
> > leaking gas column is at the water line, the gas will rapidly diffuse
> > to a concentration less than the 5 to 15% fuel/air mixture needed for
> > combustion. Your hypothetical midnight arsonist would need to capture
> > some of the leaking gas, mix it with the optimum stoichiometric volume
> > of air, and ignite the mix without becoming a suicide bomber. Even
> > so, the resulting explosion would probably not ignite the surrounding
> > gas.
> >
> >> - often in these privately funded mini-submarines and light this
> >> vented gas. If you look at the reports of the investigations of
> >> these fires there are very few other explanations.
> >
> > Got any links to examples of mini-subs and mysterious oil platform
> > fires? I found a few accusations of sabotage, but no real evidence or
> > convictions. Also, no mention of mini-submarines:
> > <https://www.google.com/search?q=oil+platform+fire+sabotage>
> >
> > [ 15 mins wasted while eating a late dinner ]
> >
> With a long history of rank incompetence, corruption and
> political placements in management,PEMEX is not new to these
> problems.

You don't light the place you are living on fire with no fast escape no matter how incompetent you are, Jeff shows that as being physically crippled, he is mentally crippled. The molar weight of air is 28 and that of natural gas is 25. This difference is so slight that it easily blows downwind and is largely dispersed before rising due to that slight weight difference. What sort of ignorance he has is displayed with every posting.

On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 12:34:12 AM UTC-4, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Mar 2022 10:05:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Most of these fires are NOT accidental but from deliberate sabotage.
> > There is natural gas that is vented downwind so all someone has to
> > do is approach in the dead of night
> Baloney. Natural gas is lighter than air and will rise. If the
> leaking gas column is at the water line, the gas will rapidly diffuse
> to a concentration less than the 5 to 15% fuel/air mixture needed for
> combustion. Your hypothetical midnight arsonist would need to capture
> some of the leaking gas, mix it with the optimum stoichiometric volume
> of air, and ignite the mix without becoming a suicide bomber. Even
> so, the resulting explosion would probably not ignite the surrounding
> gas.

sometimes I have difficulty believing tom actually buys into his own bullshit

https://sagemetering.com/flare-gas-meter/natural-gas-flaring-on-offshore-platforms-and-in-oil-extraction/

> > - often in these privately funded mini-submarines and light this
> > vented gas. If you look at the reports of the investigations of
> > these fires there are very few other explanations.
> Got any links to examples of mini-subs and mysterious oil platform
> fires? I found a few accusations of sabotage, but no real evidence or
> convictions. Also, no mention of mini-submarines:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=oil+platform+fire+sabotage>

It's probably the same Soros-led cabal responsible for the jewish space lasers.

>
> [ 15 mins wasted while eating a late dinner ]
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Rolf, something appears to have gone wrong with the quoting function probably because of the length of this entirely worthless discussion. Germany ignoring nuclear power which is perhaps the greenest of green energy is pretty silly. Thorium reactors are not only completely safe, but make a great deal of their own fuel. If their containment facility would be ruptured in some manner the reactions simply halt. Escape of long term radioactive substances is practically nil. Just because the US policies are self destructive is no reason for Germany to act the same.

Am 14.03.2022 um 18:16 schrieb Tom Kunich:
> Rolf, something appears to have gone wrong with the quoting function
> probably because of the length of this entirely worthless discussion.
> Germany ignoring nuclear power which is perhaps the greenest of green
> energy is pretty silly. Thorium reactors are not only completely
> safe, but make a great deal of their own fuel. If their containment
> facility would be ruptured in some manner the reactions simply halt.
> Escape of long term radioactive substances is practically nil. Just
> because the US policies are self destructive is no reason for Germany
> to act the same.

My 2021 answer is: Please adress your wishes towards France,
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamanville_Nuclear_Power_Plant>

they have started the Flammanville reactor in 2007, with the hope of
loading and starting to produce electricity in 2023. We don't have time
for those delays, and we prefer not to pay this much money for electricity.

My 2022 answer is: look at the Russian Army in Chernobyl and
Zaporizhzhia. In a world with such madmen, can we please build no more
nuclear power plants within 1500 miles of the Russian border at least?

On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 11:09:55 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 14.03.2022 um 18:16 schrieb Tom Kunich:
> > Rolf, something appears to have gone wrong with the quoting function
> > probably because of the length of this entirely worthless discussion.
> > Germany ignoring nuclear power which is perhaps the greenest of green
> > energy is pretty silly. Thorium reactors are not only completely
> > safe, but make a great deal of their own fuel. If their containment
> > facility would be ruptured in some manner the reactions simply halt.
> > Escape of long term radioactive substances is practically nil. Just
> > because the US policies are self destructive is no reason for Germany
> > to act the same.
> My 2021 answer is: Please adress your wishes towards France,
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamanville_Nuclear_Power_Plant>
>
> they have started the Flammanville reactor in 2007, with the hope of
> loading and starting to produce electricity in 2023. We don't have time
> for those delays, and we prefer not to pay this much money for electricity.
>
> My 2022 answer is: look at the Russian Army in Chernobyl and
> Zaporizhzhia. In a world with such madmen, can we please build no more
> nuclear power plants within 1500 miles of the Russian border at least?

Here is a somewhat descriptive list of the pros and cons of thorium reactors. https://vittana.org/16-big-thorium-reactor-pros-and-cons

You will notice that the largest con of the Thorium reactors is that nuclear power has become politically incorrect. You absolutely CANNOT use a heavy water Uranium reactor problem to describe a thorium reactor. Presently Germany is spending many times what it would take to convert to Thorium reactors for windmills that absolutely destroy shorebirds and ocean going birds. It is likely that the supersonic sounds from these windmills also kill fish or at the very least chase them away.

So-called environmentalists haven't any idea what they are talking about and often, such as the case of windmills and solar farms are more apt to destroy the environment rather than help it. The Pacific Coast of the USA has dammed every river and in so doing has absolutely destroyed the salmon population. Salmon are now hatchery grown and many of those die in the trip down the rivers.

I am an environmentalist and have been my whole life. But I am also a scientist and weigh the pros and cons of everything claimed to be helpful for the environment. In case you are unaware of it, the insect populations are largely controlled not from birds but from bats. Windmills deafen bats and they starve to death and the insect population multiplies 1,000 fold. This completely changes the plant population to those that are poisonous to insects. These in turn mix with food crops of farmers and end up in the food.

The same people conspicuously protesting crop dusting think nothing of poisonous weeds in food supplies.

Am 14.03.2022 um 19:36 schrieb Tom Kunich:

> In case you are unaware of it, the
> insect populations are largely controlled not from birds but from
> bats. Windmills deafen bats and they starve to death and the insect
> population multiplies 1,000 fold.

If this was really the case, I'd say "please build more windmills"
because in Germany, the biomass by insects has reduced more than 75% in
the 27 years it's been measured.
<https://www1.wdr.de/wissen/natur/faktencheck-insektensterben-100.html>

Rolf

On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 12:41:37 PM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 14.03.2022 um 19:36 schrieb Tom Kunich:
>
> > In case you are unaware of it, the
> > insect populations are largely controlled not from birds but from
> > bats. Windmills deafen bats and they starve to death and the insect
> > population multiplies 1,000 fold.
> If this was really the case, I'd say "please build more windmills"
> because in Germany, the biomass by insects has reduced more than 75% in
> the 27 years it's been measured.
> <https://www1.wdr.de/wissen/natur/faktencheck-insektensterben-100.html>

Rolf, if this is really the case it is because of very bad use of insecticides. This multiplies food output from farms but at the expense of the environment. I might also add that changing the type of vegetation from open land to farming is also very destructive of types of insects. In the San Francisco Bay area, entire species of butterflies and dragonflies have all but completely disappeared. in 30 years I have not seen a dragonfly or a Yellow Swallowtail butterfly. These were once the most common insects other than flies and bees.

I don't know what the composition of open land to farming is in Germany so I couldn't say why entire species of insects would disappear but here it is because of filling in the bay marshland.

On 3/14/2022 11:18 AM, sms wrote:
> On 3/12/2022 2:42 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I'd guess there is a real strong correlation with oil
>> prices and gas prices and the invasion of Ukraine. Now I
>> will agree that gas prices and oil prices have been
>> trending upwards for the past 1 plus year. As the economy
>> has improved over the past year and people are returning
>> to normal livelihoods and driving more and more. Demand
>> for gas and oil has increased considerably over the past
>> year plus. Demand increases prices. At least that is
>> what I learned in business school.
>
> When it comes to oil companies, the "law of supply and
> demand" is a little different.
>
> Robert Klein explained it well in his "Mind Over Matter"
> segment, see
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWFeD8svMzw&t=1353s>.
> "We have all the supply so we can demand whatever the f%$k
> we want."

In theory, maybe, sometimes.

Out in the real world, these are competitive public
companies whose revenues and expenses are well reported.
More, the Administration has already made noises about
pursuing price fixing allegations.

I predict that, having suffered these allegations
previously, even periodically,and not being naive waifs, no
proof of it will be found. Again.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/14/2022 12:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 9:05:44 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 3/13/2022 11:34 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Sun, 13 Mar 2022 10:05:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Most of these fires are NOT accidental but from deliberate sabotage.
>>>> There is natural gas that is vented downwind so all someone has to
>>>> do is approach in the dead of night
>>>
>>> Baloney. Natural gas is lighter than air and will rise. If the
>>> leaking gas column is at the water line, the gas will rapidly diffuse
>>> to a concentration less than the 5 to 15% fuel/air mixture needed for
>>> combustion. Your hypothetical midnight arsonist would need to capture
>>> some of the leaking gas, mix it with the optimum stoichiometric volume
>>> of air, and ignite the mix without becoming a suicide bomber. Even
>>> so, the resulting explosion would probably not ignite the surrounding
>>> gas.
>>>
>>>> - often in these privately funded mini-submarines and light this
>>>> vented gas. If you look at the reports of the investigations of
>>>> these fires there are very few other explanations.
>>>
>>> Got any links to examples of mini-subs and mysterious oil platform
>>> fires? I found a few accusations of sabotage, but no real evidence or
>>> convictions. Also, no mention of mini-submarines:
>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=oil+platform+fire+sabotage>
>>>
>>> [ 15 mins wasted while eating a late dinner ]
>>>
>> With a long history of rank incompetence, corruption and
>> political placements in management,PEMEX is not new to these
>> problems.
>
> You don't light the place you are living on fire with no fast escape no matter how incompetent you are, Jeff shows that as being physically crippled, he is mentally crippled. The molar weight of air is 28 and that of natural gas is 25. This difference is so slight that it easily blows downwind and is largely dispersed before rising due to that slight weight difference. What sort of ignorance he has is displayed with every posting.
>

PEMEX has suffered four major platform fires in the same new
Gulf field in just over a year. (in the US portion of it,
we've been producing for several years) PEMEX just do not
have the skill set for this work.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 2:17:16 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/14/2022 12:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 9:05:44 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 3/13/2022 11:34 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 13 Mar 2022 10:05:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Most of these fires are NOT accidental but from deliberate sabotage.
> >>>> There is natural gas that is vented downwind so all someone has to
> >>>> do is approach in the dead of night
> >>>
> >>> Baloney. Natural gas is lighter than air and will rise. If the
> >>> leaking gas column is at the water line, the gas will rapidly diffuse
> >>> to a concentration less than the 5 to 15% fuel/air mixture needed for
> >>> combustion. Your hypothetical midnight arsonist would need to capture
> >>> some of the leaking gas, mix it with the optimum stoichiometric volume
> >>> of air, and ignite the mix without becoming a suicide bomber. Even
> >>> so, the resulting explosion would probably not ignite the surrounding
> >>> gas.
> >>>
> >>>> - often in these privately funded mini-submarines and light this
> >>>> vented gas. If you look at the reports of the investigations of
> >>>> these fires there are very few other explanations.
> >>>
> >>> Got any links to examples of mini-subs and mysterious oil platform
> >>> fires? I found a few accusations of sabotage, but no real evidence or
> >>> convictions. Also, no mention of mini-submarines:
> >>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=oil+platform+fire+sabotage>
> >>>
> >>> [ 15 mins wasted while eating a late dinner ]
> >>>
> >> With a long history of rank incompetence, corruption and
> >> political placements in management,PEMEX is not new to these
> >> problems.
> >
> > You don't light the place you are living on fire with no fast escape no matter how incompetent you are, Jeff shows that as being physically crippled, he is mentally crippled. The molar weight of air is 28 and that of natural gas is 25. This difference is so slight that it easily blows downwind and is largely dispersed before rising due to that slight weight difference. What sort of ignorance he has is displayed with every posting.
> >
> PEMEX has suffered four major platform fires in the same new
> Gulf field in just over a year. (in the US portion of it,
> we've been producing for several years) PEMEX just do not
> have the skill set for this work.
Do you want to tell Mexico that they can't drill for oil in their own national waters? Tell them they are too stupid to be able to do this sort of thing.

On 3/14/2022 1:16 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Rolf, something appears to have gone wrong with the quoting function probably because of the length of this entirely worthless discussion.

I'm pretty sure that's an operator problem, Tom.

--
- Frank Krygowski