On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:20:39 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/9/2022 6:34 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 06:17:57 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 14:17:06 -0800 (PST), James Carrington
>>> <jhcjrx@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 4:16:17 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 3/9/2022 2:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 11:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 8:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the laws and policies of the nation were out of step
>>>>>>>> with the values of the population generally, they would be
>>>>>>>> changed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OK. As a first step, a large majority of Americans is in
>>>>>>> favor of universal background checks before buying guns.
>>>>>>> That's true even of NRA members. Can we start there?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/views-on-gun-policy/psdt_2017-06-22-guns-05-10/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As with the vigorous debate around the 1968 firearms act, ideas which
>>>>>> seemed sensible at first were stricken as people thought further about
>>>>>> the follow on effects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pointedly, a licensed FFL dealer must keep paper records which can be
>>>>>> retrieved with a warrant in a criminal investigation (I think that's
>>>>>> unreasonable but I wasn't in Congress at the time and one asked me. It
>>>>>> passed).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What the Federal government cannot do is keep a national registration
>>>>>> list. Sensible WWII veterans and survivors of world famous firearms
>>>>>> registration schemes[1] were in Congress and knew that was an open
>>>>>> invitation to disaster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] https://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even the most notorious left-wing spin organization didn't dispute those
>>>>>> facts:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/little-gun-history/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Merely noting that the opportunity to subjugate an unarmed population
>>>>>> doesn't mean the certainty of genocide. Weak argument IMHO.
>>>>> Like it or not, Snopes is disagreeing with your implied premise: that if
>>>>> we have universal background checks, the government will soon enslave
>>>>> all Americans - or whatever you really mean.
>>>>>
>>>>> Governments have not enslaved all Canadians, British, Irish, French,
>>>>> Norwegians, Spanish, etc. etc. And as a further detail, a background
>>>>> check is not the same as a gun registration.
>>>>>
>>>>> As it is now in the U.S., a confirmed psychopathic sadist can easily and
>>>>> legally buy a gun. In many states he can carry it almost anywhere
>>>>> without a permit. In many, he doesn't even have to tell a cop he's
>>>>> carrying one if a cop stops him for some reason.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does this sound perfectly logical? Gosh, how could anything go wrong?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>
>>>> It seems to me that Andrew, Johnny, and tommy are all of the same ilk that a few dozen dead children from a school shooting every once in a while are an acceptable price to pay in order to keep unfettered access to fully automatic weapons with high capacity magazines so pot-bellied militia wannbes can play rambo. The 'most notorious left-wing spin organization >snopes' comment is a dead give away (pun intended).
>>>
>>> (:-)
>>> Well lets see. I showed records that demonstrated that somr 500 had
>>> been killed in what was it? 72 years? of Mass shootings and 50,000
>>> killed on bicycles during the same period.
>>>
>>> And as for "unfettered access to fully automatic weapons"? Nope, not
>>> in the U.S. since 1934 with the National Firearms Law (or whatever it
>>> was called) as for the big magazines, well, yes today. But they were
>>> banned from 1994 until 2004 and the results of the ban was:
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban
>>> A 2017 review found that there was no evidence that ban had a
>>> significant effect on firearm homicides.
>>> A 2014 study found no impacts on homicide rates with an assault weapon
>>> ban.[29] A 2014 book published by Oxford University Press noted that
>>> "There is no compelling evidence that [the ban] saved lives."[30][31]
>>> In 2004, a research report commissioned by the National Institute of
>>> Justice found that if the ban was renewed, the effects on gun violence
>>> would likely be small and perhaps too small for reliable measurement
>>
>>
>> An addition to the above Frank challenged me to compare firearm deaths
>> in Canada with Vermont which has almost unfettered gun access and very
>> low gun deaths. So Canada - 1.6/100,000, Vermont - 1.3.
>
>Don't cheat, John! If you're going to limit the U.S. data to just one
>state, for honesty you should limit the Canadian data to one adjacent
>province.
>
> From
>https://www.statista.com/statistics/433663/number-of-homicides-in-canada-by-province/,
>87 gun deaths in all of Quebec province. The province's population is
>8.5 million. That works out to 1.0 gun death per 100,000 population.
>It's less than Vermont's 1.3 per 100,000.
>
>Or for another honest comparison, let's look at total Canada data and
>total U.S. data.
>https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country
>says Canada is at 2.05 gun deaths per 100,000 population. The U.S. is at
>12.21 gun deaths per 100,000. The nation to nation comparison says the
>U.S. is about six times worse.
>
>> So much for Franks's arguments.
>
>No, so much for John's honesty.

Well Frank, you used "Canada" so I used "Canada" and I might comment
that while the IU.S. is a nation made up of States, each are
essentially (or supposed to be) self governing and certainly with
different laws, Canada is I believe a single country with a single set
of laws.

Or, at least I can find no reference to separate "gun laws" by
province while I do find
"https://nfa.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Brief-history-of-Canadas-gun-laws-Part-II.pdf
which mentions "he federal government reacted to these
demands by passing new gun laws that for the first time in Canadian
history legally defined long guns as "firearms."

I think you went overboard again Frank.
But hang in there. You'll win one eventually.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 15:26:37 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 5:01:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 08:09:36 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>> >On 3/9/2022 3:18 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 10:15:24 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> >>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:57:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On 3/8/2022 6:06 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:34:26 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
>> >>>>>>>>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
>> >>>>>>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
>> >>>>>>>>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
>> >>>>>>>>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon. (:-)
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> John B.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> No.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
>> >>>>>>>> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done
>> >>>>>>>> with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
>> >>>>>>>> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
>> >>>>>>>> Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his
>> >>>>>>>> hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally
>> >>>>>>>> purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
>> >>>>>>>> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at
>> >>>>>>>> Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly
>> >>>>>>>> Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not
>> >>>>>>>> have a waiting period to buy a gun."
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
>> >>>>>>>> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm
>> >>>>>>>> Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body,
>> >>>>>>>> along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two
>> >>>>>>>> guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer
>> >>>>>>>> MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
>> >>>>>>>> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes
>> >>>>>>>> that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to
>> >>>>>>>> purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal
>> >>>>>>>> Background Check System (NICS)."
>> >>>>>>>> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22
>> >>>>>>>> semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
>> >>>>>>>> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old
>> >>>>>>>> enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young
>> >>>>>>>> to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally
>> >>>>>>>> by his mother."
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
>> >>>>>>>> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from
>> >>>>>>>> an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016.
>> >>>>>>>> He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he
>> >>>>>>>> did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
>> >>>>>>>> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> So we can agree that laws, no matter how restrictive and punitive to the
>> >>>>>>> general population, are not effective against psychopaths, jihadis and
>> >>>>>>> the like.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> No, we cannot! As mentioned previously in detail, Canada doubtlessly has
>> >>>>>> a psychopath/jihadi density similar to the U.S. But they have far, far
>> >>>>>> fewer gun deaths. The same can be said for Britain, Ireland, Australia,
>> >>>>>> France, Germany, etc. etc.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Nope. Wrong again Tommy, err Franky.
>> >>>>> https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/16-countries-with-the-highest-mental-illness-rates-in-the-world-649757/?singlepage=1
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The U.S. seems to be #3 in the world while Canada isn't even
>> >>>>> mentioned.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Nice try, John! You had me almost ready to say "OK, you're right." But
>> >>>> that went away as soon as I began reading your link.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Two points: First, my statement which echoed Andrew's was about
>> >>>> "psychopaths" and "jihadis." The link you gave seemed to concentrate on
>> >>>> things like simple depression. Those are very different maladies or
>> >>>> mental states. Your typical depressed individual can't get motivated to
>> >>>> make the bed, let alone acquire arms and commit an act of terrorism.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Second, if you think Switzerland, France, Germany etc. are comparable to
>> >>>> the U.S. in mental problems, then why don't they have America's gun
>> >>>> violence problem?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The obvious answer is what I've been saying: The U.S. problem isn't
>> >>>> population insanity or some inherent evil in Americans.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> National policies and laws DO make a big difference. We just have crappy
>> >>>> gun laws, and many thousands of lives are ruined each year because of them.
>> >>> Gee Frank, I do believe that you have "gone right round the bend" as
>> >>> the saying goes. Jihads are gun criminals?
>> >>>
>> >>> And here I had always understood that Jihads were the extensively
>> >>> religious people. The word "jihad", in Arabic, simply means to strive
>> >>> or struggle and is generally used in the sense of striving or
>> >>> struggling against the non-believers.
>> >>> I might add that I spent many years in Indonesia the largest
>> >>> (population wise) Islamic country in the world.
>> >>>
>> >>> And now you are telling me that they are just gun criminals.
>> >>
>> >> I'm sure you already know this John, but just in case I will spell it out. In the USA, a "Jihadi" or "Jihadist" or whatever the proper term is, means an Arab Muslim brown skinned black haired terrorist who murders white Caucasian Christians. That is the definition. Just like "Coke" means any and all carbonated soft drinks. Doesn't matter if its officially a Coca Cola product or a Pepsi Cola or a Mountain Dew or a 7-Up. Its all Coke. All Jihadis are Arab Muslim terrorists.
>> Nope. You don't know your middle east. All Jihads are not Arabs and if
>> you ask them they will tell you. It isn't a secret. Just like all
>> Africans are not, oh say, Tutus or Zulu, or all Orientals are not
>> Chinese, or, or, or.
>
>John, you just did a Tommy!!!!!!!! I am very worried about you.
>
>I wrote above:
>"In the USA, a "Jihadi" or "Jihadist" or whatever the proper term is, means an Arab Muslim brown skinned black haired terrorist"
>
>Again, I WROTE "In the USA". I did not talk about the middle east. Or anywhere else in the world. Just the USA. In the USA, a Jihadi means a Muslim terrorist. That is the USA definition. I did not and am not saying that is the correct and proper definition for the whole world.

On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 5:34:33 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 06:17:57 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 14:17:06 -0800 (PST), James Carrington
> ><jhc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 4:16:17 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 3/9/2022 2:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> > On 3/9/2022 11:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> >> On 3/9/2022 8:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> If the laws and policies of the nation were out of step
> >>> >>> with the values of the population generally, they would be
> >>> >>> changed.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> OK. As a first step, a large majority of Americans is in
> >>> >> favor of universal background checks before buying guns.
> >>> >> That's true even of NRA members. Can we start there?
> >>> >>
> >>> >> https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/views-on-gun-policy/psdt_2017-06-22-guns-05-10/
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >
> >>> > As with the vigorous debate around the 1968 firearms act, ideas which
> >>> > seemed sensible at first were stricken as people thought further about
> >>> > the follow on effects.
> >>> >
> >>> > Pointedly, a licensed FFL dealer must keep paper records which can be
> >>> > retrieved with a warrant in a criminal investigation (I think that's
> >>> > unreasonable but I wasn't in Congress at the time and one asked me. It
> >>> > passed).
> >>> >
> >>> > What the Federal government cannot do is keep a national registration
> >>> > list. Sensible WWII veterans and survivors of world famous firearms
> >>> > registration schemes[1] were in Congress and knew that was an open
> >>> > invitation to disaster.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > [1] https://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf
> >>> >
> >>> > Even the most notorious left-wing spin organization didn't dispute those
> >>> > facts:
> >>> >
> >>> > https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/little-gun-history/
> >>> >
> >>> > Merely noting that the opportunity to subjugate an unarmed population
> >>> > doesn't mean the certainty of genocide. Weak argument IMHO.
> >>> Like it or not, Snopes is disagreeing with your implied premise: that if
> >>> we have universal background checks, the government will soon enslave
> >>> all Americans - or whatever you really mean.
> >>>
> >>> Governments have not enslaved all Canadians, British, Irish, French,
> >>> Norwegians, Spanish, etc. etc. And as a further detail, a background
> >>> check is not the same as a gun registration.
> >>>
> >>> As it is now in the U.S., a confirmed psychopathic sadist can easily and
> >>> legally buy a gun. In many states he can carry it almost anywhere
> >>> without a permit. In many, he doesn't even have to tell a cop he's
> >>> carrying one if a cop stops him for some reason.
> >>>
> >>> Does this sound perfectly logical? Gosh, how could anything go wrong?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>
> >> It seems to me that Andrew, Johnny, and tommy are all of the same ilk that a few dozen dead children from a school shooting every once in a while are an acceptable price to pay in order to keep unfettered access to fully automatic weapons with high capacity magazines so pot-bellied militia wannbes can play rambo. The 'most notorious left-wing spin organization >snopes' comment is a dead give away (pun intended).
> >
> >(:-)
> >Well lets see. I showed records that demonstrated that somr 500 had
> >been killed in what was it? 72 years? of Mass shootings and 50,000
> >killed on bicycles during the same period.
> >
> >And as for "unfettered access to fully automatic weapons"? Nope, not
> >in the U.S. since 1934 with the National Firearms Law (or whatever it
> >was called) as for the big magazines, well, yes today. But they were
> >banned from 1994 until 2004 and the results of the ban was:
> >
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban
> >A 2017 review found that there was no evidence that ban had a
> >significant effect on firearm homicides.
> >A 2014 study found no impacts on homicide rates with an assault weapon
> >ban.[29] A 2014 book published by Oxford University Press noted that
> >"There is no compelling evidence that [the ban] saved lives."[30][31]
> >In 2004, a research report commissioned by the National Institute of
> >Justice found that if the ban was renewed, the effects on gun violence
> >would likely be small and perhaps too small for reliable measurement
> An addition to the above Frank challenged me to compare firearm deaths
> in Canada with Vermont which has almost unfettered gun access and very
> low gun deaths. So Canada - 1.6/100,000, Vermont - 1.3.

A Google search says Canada has 38 million people as of 2020. Divide that by 100,000 and you get 380 as your denominator. We are using per 100k numbers here.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/433713/number-of-homicides-by-shooting-in-canada/
This shows total firearm murders/deaths in Canada. 277 in 2020. So if we divide 277 by 380, we get to 0.73 firearm murders per 100k in Canada in 2020. Less than half your stated 1.6 for Canada. Little more than half of Vermont's. Where did you get your numbers John?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/433671/homicide-rate-in-canada-by-province/
This shows the homicide rate by Canadian province. Homicide rate, NOT firearm murders. Some of these homicides were committed by knives and hands and whaling harpoons and etc. Not all were gun murders. But for now lets just use Canadian murder rates by all means possible to compare to your firearm deaths numbers above.

Frank brought this up in another post about 50 states in the USA and each is different with different murder rates. And Canada has provinces with different murder rates. So we should probably compare states and provinces close to each other with one another. They are similar maybe?

Vermont of 1.3 you say. Below are the Canadian provinces close to Vermont.
Ontario 1.59
Quebec 1.01
New Brunswick 1.79
Nova Scotia 3.57
Prince Edward Island 0.63

Ontario, where huge city Toronto is located, is more than Vermont. But remember this is total murder rate for Canada, not firearm murders as you have for Vermont. So almost certainly, Ontario has a lower gun murder rate than Vermont's 1.3. New Brunswick, north of Maine, has 1.79 total homicide rate. But almost certainly less firearm murders than Vermont's 1.3 you state.. Some reason they are killing lots of people on the islands of Nova Scotia. But not on the island of Prince Edward. So Nova Scotia is worse than Vermont for murder rates. And likely for firearm murders too. Prince Edward they don't even waste time murdering people there.

So even when we narrow the comparison down to a rational comparison of close by territory, Vermont isn't really that good for murders compared to Canadian provinces. Either total murders or firearms only murders.

>
> So much for Franks's arguments.
>
> Some day y'all are going to wake up to the fact that "guns don't kill
> people, people kill people". Or perhaps not as it is so easy to deny
> reality.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 11:28:07 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 15:26:37 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 5:01:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >> On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 08:09:36 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 3/9/2022 3:18 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> >> On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 10:15:24 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >> >>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:57:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >> >>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On 3/8/2022 6:06 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> >>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:34:26 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >> >>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey..org> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
> >> >>>>>>>>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
> >> >>>>>>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
> >> >>>>>>>>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
> >> >>>>>>>>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon.. (:-)
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> John B.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> No.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
> >> >>>>>>>> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done
> >> >>>>>>>> with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
> >> >>>>>>>> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
> >> >>>>>>>> Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his
> >> >>>>>>>> hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally
> >> >>>>>>>> purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
> >> >>>>>>>> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at
> >> >>>>>>>> Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly
> >> >>>>>>>> Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not
> >> >>>>>>>> have a waiting period to buy a gun."
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
> >> >>>>>>>> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm
> >> >>>>>>>> Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body,
> >> >>>>>>>> along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two
> >> >>>>>>>> guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer
> >> >>>>>>>> MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
> >> >>>>>>>> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes
> >> >>>>>>>> that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to
> >> >>>>>>>> purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal
> >> >>>>>>>> Background Check System (NICS)."
> >> >>>>>>>> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22
> >> >>>>>>>> semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
> >> >>>>>>>> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old
> >> >>>>>>>> enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young
> >> >>>>>>>> to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally
> >> >>>>>>>> by his mother."
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
> >> >>>>>>>> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from
> >> >>>>>>>> an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016.
> >> >>>>>>>> He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he
> >> >>>>>>>> did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
> >> >>>>>>>> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> So we can agree that laws, no matter how restrictive and punitive to the
> >> >>>>>>> general population, are not effective against psychopaths, jihadis and
> >> >>>>>>> the like.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> No, we cannot! As mentioned previously in detail, Canada doubtlessly has
> >> >>>>>> a psychopath/jihadi density similar to the U.S. But they have far, far
> >> >>>>>> fewer gun deaths. The same can be said for Britain, Ireland, Australia,
> >> >>>>>> France, Germany, etc. etc.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Nope. Wrong again Tommy, err Franky.
> >> >>>>> https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/16-countries-with-the-highest-mental-illness-rates-in-the-world-649757/?singlepage=1
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> The U.S. seems to be #3 in the world while Canada isn't even
> >> >>>>> mentioned.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Nice try, John! You had me almost ready to say "OK, you're right." But
> >> >>>> that went away as soon as I began reading your link.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Two points: First, my statement which echoed Andrew's was about
> >> >>>> "psychopaths" and "jihadis." The link you gave seemed to concentrate on
> >> >>>> things like simple depression. Those are very different maladies or
> >> >>>> mental states. Your typical depressed individual can't get motivated to
> >> >>>> make the bed, let alone acquire arms and commit an act of terrorism.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Second, if you think Switzerland, France, Germany etc. are comparable to
> >> >>>> the U.S. in mental problems, then why don't they have America's gun
> >> >>>> violence problem?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> The obvious answer is what I've been saying: The U.S. problem isn't
> >> >>>> population insanity or some inherent evil in Americans.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> National policies and laws DO make a big difference. We just have crappy
> >> >>>> gun laws, and many thousands of lives are ruined each year because of them.
> >> >>> Gee Frank, I do believe that you have "gone right round the bend" as
> >> >>> the saying goes. Jihads are gun criminals?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> And here I had always understood that Jihads were the extensively
> >> >>> religious people. The word "jihad", in Arabic, simply means to strive
> >> >>> or struggle and is generally used in the sense of striving or
> >> >>> struggling against the non-believers.
> >> >>> I might add that I spent many years in Indonesia the largest
> >> >>> (population wise) Islamic country in the world.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> And now you are telling me that they are just gun criminals.
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm sure you already know this John, but just in case I will spell it out. In the USA, a "Jihadi" or "Jihadist" or whatever the proper term is, means an Arab Muslim brown skinned black haired terrorist who murders white Caucasian Christians. That is the definition. Just like "Coke" means any and all carbonated soft drinks. Doesn't matter if its officially a Coca Cola product or a Pepsi Cola or a Mountain Dew or a 7-Up. Its all Coke. All Jihadis are Arab Muslim terrorists.
> >> Nope. You don't know your middle east. All Jihads are not Arabs and if
> >> you ask them they will tell you. It isn't a secret. Just like all
> >> Africans are not, oh say, Tutus or Zulu, or all Orientals are not
> >> Chinese, or, or, or.
> >
> >John, you just did a Tommy!!!!!!!! I am very worried about you.
> >
> >I wrote above:
> >"In the USA, a "Jihadi" or "Jihadist" or whatever the proper term is, means an Arab Muslim brown skinned black haired terrorist"
> >
> >Again, I WROTE "In the USA". I did not talk about the middle east. Or anywhere else in the world. Just the USA. In the USA, a Jihadi means a Muslim terrorist. That is the USA definition. I did not and am not saying that is the correct and proper definition for the whole world.
> Aren't you the guy that didn't know where Singapore was?

On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:04:02 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 5:34:33 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 06:17:57 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 14:17:06 -0800 (PST), James Carrington
>> ><jhc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 4:16:17 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>> On 3/9/2022 2:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>> > On 3/9/2022 11:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>> >> On 3/9/2022 8:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> If the laws and policies of the nation were out of step
>> >>> >>> with the values of the population generally, they would be
>> >>> >>> changed.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> OK. As a first step, a large majority of Americans is in
>> >>> >> favor of universal background checks before buying guns.
>> >>> >> That's true even of NRA members. Can we start there?
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/views-on-gun-policy/psdt_2017-06-22-guns-05-10/
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >
>> >>> > As with the vigorous debate around the 1968 firearms act, ideas which
>> >>> > seemed sensible at first were stricken as people thought further about
>> >>> > the follow on effects.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Pointedly, a licensed FFL dealer must keep paper records which can be
>> >>> > retrieved with a warrant in a criminal investigation (I think that's
>> >>> > unreasonable but I wasn't in Congress at the time and one asked me. It
>> >>> > passed).
>> >>> >
>> >>> > What the Federal government cannot do is keep a national registration
>> >>> > list. Sensible WWII veterans and survivors of world famous firearms
>> >>> > registration schemes[1] were in Congress and knew that was an open
>> >>> > invitation to disaster.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > [1] https://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Even the most notorious left-wing spin organization didn't dispute those
>> >>> > facts:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/little-gun-history/
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Merely noting that the opportunity to subjugate an unarmed population
>> >>> > doesn't mean the certainty of genocide. Weak argument IMHO.
>> >>> Like it or not, Snopes is disagreeing with your implied premise: that if
>> >>> we have universal background checks, the government will soon enslave
>> >>> all Americans - or whatever you really mean.
>> >>>
>> >>> Governments have not enslaved all Canadians, British, Irish, French,
>> >>> Norwegians, Spanish, etc. etc. And as a further detail, a background
>> >>> check is not the same as a gun registration.
>> >>>
>> >>> As it is now in the U.S., a confirmed psychopathic sadist can easily and
>> >>> legally buy a gun. In many states he can carry it almost anywhere
>> >>> without a permit. In many, he doesn't even have to tell a cop he's
>> >>> carrying one if a cop stops him for some reason.
>> >>>
>> >>> Does this sound perfectly logical? Gosh, how could anything go wrong?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> - Frank Krygowski
>> >>
>> >> It seems to me that Andrew, Johnny, and tommy are all of the same ilk that a few dozen dead children from a school shooting every once in a while are an acceptable price to pay in order to keep unfettered access to fully automatic weapons with high capacity magazines so pot-bellied militia wannbes can play rambo. The 'most notorious left-wing spin organization >snopes' comment is a dead give away (pun intended).
>> >
>> >(:-)
>> >Well lets see. I showed records that demonstrated that somr 500 had
>> >been killed in what was it? 72 years? of Mass shootings and 50,000
>> >killed on bicycles during the same period.
>> >
>> >And as for "unfettered access to fully automatic weapons"? Nope, not
>> >in the U.S. since 1934 with the National Firearms Law (or whatever it
>> >was called) as for the big magazines, well, yes today. But they were
>> >banned from 1994 until 2004 and the results of the ban was:
>> >
>> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban
>> >A 2017 review found that there was no evidence that ban had a
>> >significant effect on firearm homicides.
>> >A 2014 study found no impacts on homicide rates with an assault weapon
>> >ban.[29] A 2014 book published by Oxford University Press noted that
>> >"There is no compelling evidence that [the ban] saved lives."[30][31]
>> >In 2004, a research report commissioned by the National Institute of
>> >Justice found that if the ban was renewed, the effects on gun violence
>> >would likely be small and perhaps too small for reliable measurement
>> An addition to the above Frank challenged me to compare firearm deaths
>> in Canada with Vermont which has almost unfettered gun access and very
>> low gun deaths. So Canada - 1.6/100,000, Vermont - 1.3.
>
>A Google search says Canada has 38 million people as of 2020. Divide that by 100,000 and you get 380 as your denominator. We are using per 100k numbers here.
>
>https://www.statista.com/statistics/433713/number-of-homicides-by-shooting-in-canada/
>This shows total firearm murders/deaths in Canada. 277 in 2020. So if we divide 277 by 380, we get to 0.73 firearm murders per 100k in Canada in 2020. Less than half your stated 1.6 for Canada. Little more than half of Vermont's. Where did you get your numbers John?
>
>https://www.statista.com/statistics/433671/homicide-rate-in-canada-by-province/
>This shows the homicide rate by Canadian province. Homicide rate, NOT firearm murders. Some of these homicides were committed by knives and hands and whaling harpoons and etc. Not all were gun murders. But for now lets just use Canadian murder rates by all means possible to compare to your firearm deaths numbers above.
>
>Frank brought this up in another post about 50 states in the USA and each is different with different murder rates. And Canada has provinces with different murder rates. So we should probably compare states and provinces close to each other with one another. They are similar maybe?
>
>Vermont of 1.3 you say. Below are the Canadian provinces close to Vermont.
>Ontario 1.59
>Quebec 1.01
>New Brunswick 1.79
>Nova Scotia 3.57
>Prince Edward Island 0.63
>
>Ontario, where huge city Toronto is located, is more than Vermont. But remember this is total murder rate for Canada, not firearm murders as you have for Vermont. So almost certainly, Ontario has a lower gun murder rate than Vermont's 1.3. New Brunswick, north of Maine, has 1.79 total homicide rate. But almost certainly less firearm murders than Vermont's 1.3 you state. Some reason they are killing lots of people on the islands of Nova Scotia. But not on the island of Prince Edward. So Nova Scotia is worse than Vermont for murder rates. And likely for firearm murders too. Prince Edward they don't even waste time murdering people there.
>
>So even when we narrow the comparison down to a rational comparison of close by territory, Vermont isn't really that good for murders compared to Canadian provinces. Either total murders or firearms only murders.
>
Yup, but as I have already posted, Canada is a single country with one
set of laws while the U.S. is a conglomeration of States all with
different laws.

But, of course, if you want to disregard reality why not compare
Vermont with, Oh say, Las Vegas. Vermont 643,044 (2020) population and
Las Vegas 634,773 - pretty close, Vermont a tiny bit larger. Murder
rates - Vermont - 1.3, Las Vegas - 5.7
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:26:03 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 11:28:07 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 15:26:37 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 5:01:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 08:09:36 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On 3/9/2022 3:18 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> >> On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 10:15:24 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> >> >>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:57:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >> >>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> On 3/8/2022 6:06 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >> >>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:34:26 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >> >>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>> On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
>> >> >>>>>>>>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
>> >> >>>>>>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
>> >> >>>>>>>>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
>> >> >>>>>>>>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon. (:-)
>> >> >>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>> >> >>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>> John B.
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> No.
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
>> >> >>>>>>>> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done
>> >> >>>>>>>> with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
>> >> >>>>>>>> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
>> >> >>>>>>>> Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his
>> >> >>>>>>>> hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally
>> >> >>>>>>>> purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
>> >> >>>>>>>> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at
>> >> >>>>>>>> Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly
>> >> >>>>>>>> Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not
>> >> >>>>>>>> have a waiting period to buy a gun."
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
>> >> >>>>>>>> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm
>> >> >>>>>>>> Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body,
>> >> >>>>>>>> along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two
>> >> >>>>>>>> guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer
>> >> >>>>>>>> MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
>> >> >>>>>>>> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes
>> >> >>>>>>>> that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to
>> >> >>>>>>>> purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal
>> >> >>>>>>>> Background Check System (NICS)."
>> >> >>>>>>>> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22
>> >> >>>>>>>> semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
>> >> >>>>>>>> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old
>> >> >>>>>>>> enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young
>> >> >>>>>>>> to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally
>> >> >>>>>>>> by his mother."
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
>> >> >>>>>>>> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from
>> >> >>>>>>>> an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016.
>> >> >>>>>>>> He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he
>> >> >>>>>>>> did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
>> >> >>>>>>>> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> So we can agree that laws, no matter how restrictive and punitive to the
>> >> >>>>>>> general population, are not effective against psychopaths, jihadis and
>> >> >>>>>>> the like.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> No, we cannot! As mentioned previously in detail, Canada doubtlessly has
>> >> >>>>>> a psychopath/jihadi density similar to the U.S. But they have far, far
>> >> >>>>>> fewer gun deaths. The same can be said for Britain, Ireland, Australia,
>> >> >>>>>> France, Germany, etc. etc.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Nope. Wrong again Tommy, err Franky.
>> >> >>>>> https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/16-countries-with-the-highest-mental-illness-rates-in-the-world-649757/?singlepage=1
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> The U.S. seems to be #3 in the world while Canada isn't even
>> >> >>>>> mentioned.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Nice try, John! You had me almost ready to say "OK, you're right." But
>> >> >>>> that went away as soon as I began reading your link.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Two points: First, my statement which echoed Andrew's was about
>> >> >>>> "psychopaths" and "jihadis." The link you gave seemed to concentrate on
>> >> >>>> things like simple depression. Those are very different maladies or
>> >> >>>> mental states. Your typical depressed individual can't get motivated to
>> >> >>>> make the bed, let alone acquire arms and commit an act of terrorism.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Second, if you think Switzerland, France, Germany etc. are comparable to
>> >> >>>> the U.S. in mental problems, then why don't they have America's gun
>> >> >>>> violence problem?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> The obvious answer is what I've been saying: The U.S. problem isn't
>> >> >>>> population insanity or some inherent evil in Americans.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> National policies and laws DO make a big difference. We just have crappy
>> >> >>>> gun laws, and many thousands of lives are ruined each year because of them.
>> >> >>> Gee Frank, I do believe that you have "gone right round the bend" as
>> >> >>> the saying goes. Jihads are gun criminals?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> And here I had always understood that Jihads were the extensively
>> >> >>> religious people. The word "jihad", in Arabic, simply means to strive
>> >> >>> or struggle and is generally used in the sense of striving or
>> >> >>> struggling against the non-believers.
>> >> >>> I might add that I spent many years in Indonesia the largest
>> >> >>> (population wise) Islamic country in the world.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> And now you are telling me that they are just gun criminals.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'm sure you already know this John, but just in case I will spell it out. In the USA, a "Jihadi" or "Jihadist" or whatever the proper term is, means an Arab Muslim brown skinned black haired terrorist who murders white Caucasian Christians. That is the definition. Just like "Coke" means any and all carbonated soft drinks. Doesn't matter if its officially a Coca Cola product or a Pepsi Cola or a Mountain Dew or a 7-Up. Its all Coke. All Jihadis are Arab Muslim terrorists.
>> >> Nope. You don't know your middle east. All Jihads are not Arabs and if
>> >> you ask them they will tell you. It isn't a secret. Just like all
>> >> Africans are not, oh say, Tutus or Zulu, or all Orientals are not
>> >> Chinese, or, or, or.
>> >
>> >John, you just did a Tommy!!!!!!!! I am very worried about you.
>> >
>> >I wrote above:
>> >"In the USA, a "Jihadi" or "Jihadist" or whatever the proper term is, means an Arab Muslim brown skinned black haired terrorist"
>> >
>> >Again, I WROTE "In the USA". I did not talk about the middle east. Or anywhere else in the world. Just the USA. In the USA, a Jihadi means a Muslim terrorist. That is the USA definition. I did not and am not saying that is the correct and proper definition for the whole world.
>> Aren't you the guy that didn't know where Singapore was?
>
>Correct. I got out the Google maps and looked up where the island of Singapore is. My southeast Asia geography is lacking. I have never been there. Heck, back in school when learning about WW2, Burma was mentioned all the time. Britain and Japan were fighting there. But Burma does not exist anymore. Where'd it go?
>
>
>
>>
>> But an "Arab" comes from Arabia - now called Saudi Arabia. Lebanese,
>> for example, although coming from the middle East do not consider
>> themselves Arabs. Nor do Egyptians, or those from Iran, or Pakistani,
>> or Afghanistan.
>
>In the USA, all Arabs are Muslims. Stereotype or whatever. And all Muslims are in the middle east. Except for the few here in the USA setting up mosques. Ha Ha. Stereotypes aren't always correct.
>
>Indonesia has the most Muslims in the whole world. And the top 10 countries for most Muslims only has the middle east country of Iran. None of the other top 10 Muslim countries are in the middle east at all.
>https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/muslim-population-by-country
>
>And since you mentioned Egypt, in the USA we think of Egyptians as whites. They are mostly Muslim too. But in the USA we think of Egyptians as whites, Caucasians. Because Charlton Heston and Yul Brynner were white and in The Ten Commandments movie. Obviously, Egypt is in Africa and is black population. And a lot of middle east influence too.

Am 10.03.2022 um 06:27 schrieb John B.:
> But an "Arab" comes from Arabia - now called Saudi Arabia. Lebanese,
> for example, although coming from the middle East do not consider
> themselves Arabs. Nor do Egyptians, or those from Iran, or Pakistani,
> or Afghanistan.

Right and Wrong. You need to distinguish between culturally Arab,
racially Arab and nationally Arab.

In North Africa, the majority of the population considers themselves
"Abrab" in distinction to "Black African" on one side and "European" on
the other side (Racially, most are Berbers but culturally, Berbers are
seen to be "backwards indigenous", like Tuareg).

On 3/9/2022 9:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/9/2022 6:34 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 06:17:57 +0700, John B.
>> <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 14:17:06 -0800 (PST), James Carrington
>>> <jhcjrx@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 4:16:17 PM UTC-5, Frank
>>>> Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 3/9/2022 2:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 11:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 8:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the laws and policies of the nation were out of step
>>>>>>>> with the values of the population generally, they
>>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>>> changed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OK. As a first step, a large majority of Americans is in
>>>>>>> favor of universal background checks before buying guns.
>>>>>>> That's true even of NRA members. Can we start there?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/views-on-gun-policy/psdt_2017-06-22-guns-05-10/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As with the vigorous debate around the 1968 firearms
>>>>>> act, ideas which
>>>>>> seemed sensible at first were stricken as people
>>>>>> thought further about
>>>>>> the follow on effects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pointedly, a licensed FFL dealer must keep paper
>>>>>> records which can be
>>>>>> retrieved with a warrant in a criminal investigation
>>>>>> (I think that's
>>>>>> unreasonable but I wasn't in Congress at the time and
>>>>>> one asked me. It
>>>>>> passed).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What the Federal government cannot do is keep a
>>>>>> national registration
>>>>>> list. Sensible WWII veterans and survivors of world
>>>>>> famous firearms
>>>>>> registration schemes[1] were in Congress and knew that
>>>>>> was an open
>>>>>> invitation to disaster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] https://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even the most notorious left-wing spin organization
>>>>>> didn't dispute those
>>>>>> facts:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/little-gun-history/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Merely noting that the opportunity to subjugate an
>>>>>> unarmed population
>>>>>> doesn't mean the certainty of genocide. Weak argument
>>>>>> IMHO.
>>>>> Like it or not, Snopes is disagreeing with your implied
>>>>> premise: that if
>>>>> we have universal background checks, the government
>>>>> will soon enslave
>>>>> all Americans - or whatever you really mean.
>>>>>
>>>>> Governments have not enslaved all Canadians, British,
>>>>> Irish, French,
>>>>> Norwegians, Spanish, etc. etc. And as a further detail,
>>>>> a background
>>>>> check is not the same as a gun registration.
>>>>>
>>>>> As it is now in the U.S., a confirmed psychopathic
>>>>> sadist can easily and
>>>>> legally buy a gun. In many states he can carry it
>>>>> almost anywhere
>>>>> without a permit. In many, he doesn't even have to tell
>>>>> a cop he's
>>>>> carrying one if a cop stops him for some reason.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does this sound perfectly logical? Gosh, how could
>>>>> anything go wrong?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>
>>>> It seems to me that Andrew, Johnny, and tommy are all of
>>>> the same ilk that a few dozen dead children from a
>>>> school shooting every once in a while are an acceptable
>>>> price to pay in order to keep unfettered access to fully
>>>> automatic weapons with high capacity magazines so
>>>> pot-bellied militia wannbes can play rambo. The 'most
>>>> notorious left-wing spin organization >snopes' comment
>>>> is a dead give away (pun intended).
>>>
>>> (:-)
>>> Well lets see. I showed records that demonstrated that
>>> somr 500 had
>>> been killed in what was it? 72 years? of Mass shootings
>>> and 50,000
>>> killed on bicycles during the same period.
>>>
>>> And as for "unfettered access to fully automatic
>>> weapons"? Nope, not
>>> in the U.S. since 1934 with the National Firearms Law (or
>>> whatever it
>>> was called) as for the big magazines, well, yes today.
>>> But they were
>>> banned from 1994 until 2004 and the results of the ban was:
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban
>>> A 2017 review found that there was no evidence that ban
>>> had a
>>> significant effect on firearm homicides.
>>> A 2014 study found no impacts on homicide rates with an
>>> assault weapon
>>> ban.[29] A 2014 book published by Oxford University Press
>>> noted that
>>> "There is no compelling evidence that [the ban] saved
>>> lives."[30][31]
>>> In 2004, a research report commissioned by the National
>>> Institute of
>>> Justice found that if the ban was renewed, the effects on
>>> gun violence
>>> would likely be small and perhaps too small for reliable
>>> measurement
>>
>>
>> An addition to the above Frank challenged me to compare
>> firearm deaths
>> in Canada with Vermont which has almost unfettered gun
>> access and very
>> low gun deaths. So Canada - 1.6/100,000, Vermont - 1.3.
>
> Don't cheat, John! If you're going to limit the U.S. data to
> just one state, for honesty you should limit the Canadian
> data to one adjacent province.
>
> From
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/433663/number-of-homicides-in-canada-by-province/,
> 87 gun deaths in all of Quebec province. The province's
> population is 8.5 million. That works out to 1.0 gun death
> per 100,000 population. It's less than Vermont's 1.3 per
> 100,000.
>
> Or for another honest comparison, let's look at total Canada
> data and total U.S. data.
> https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country
> says Canada is at 2.05 gun deaths per 100,000 population.
> The U.S. is at 12.21 gun deaths per 100,000. The nation to
> nation comparison says the U.S. is about six times worse.
>
>> So much for Franks's arguments.
>
> No, so much for John's honesty.
>
>

Both can be true, and are.

Mr Slocumb notes that firearms ownership in Vermont is
higher (50.5%, [1]) than USA average (42%, [2]) and yet the
firearm death rate is ~90% lower (1.3% vs 12.21%).

Which returns to my prior comment about subsidiarity.
Vermont is not USA, Chicago is not Illinois, etc etc

Also note Canada's rate differences by Province here (oddly,
Canada seems to have omitted Quebec from the official
reportage. ?? ):

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-005-x/2018001/article/54962-eng.htm

[1]
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/gun-ownership-by-state

[2]
https://www.statista.com/statistics/249740/percentage-of-households-in-the-united-states-owning-a-firearm/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/9/2022 9:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of
>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of
>>>>>>>>>>> deaths
>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>> areas where
>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but
>>>>>>>>>> upthread
>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern
>>>>>>>>>> Republican
>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger
>>>>>>>>>> right wing
>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are
>>>>>>>>> concentrated
>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national
>>>>>>>>> program
>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity
>>>>>>>>> instead.
>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under
>>>>>>>>> the same
>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita
>>>>>>>> tend to be
>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using
>>>>>>>> any one
>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime
>>>>>>>> rates,
>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red
>>>>>>>> states tend
>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last
>>>>>>>> election of
>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels,
>>>>>>>> only 1,
>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won
>>>>>>>> with poorly
>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major
>>>>>>> parties.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the
>>>>>> voters, "Elect me
>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social
>>>>>> Security,
>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it),
>>>>>> food and housing
>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>
>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our
>>>>> memory.
>>>>
>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents
>>>> U.S., and free
>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>
>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security,
>>>> etc., are not
>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>
>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>
>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their
>>>> citizens?
>>>>
>>>> Or what?
>>>
>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is
>>> true in most
>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for
>>> the citizenry
>>> and the society.
>>
>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never
>> discussed.I stated
>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American
>> Public." and that
>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters,
>> "Elect me and
>> I'll give you...".
>
> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>
> Sheesh!
>
>

+1
Even I recognize that moral turpitude in both voters and
candidates of late.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/9/2022 9:29 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/9/2022 6:01 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 08:09:36 -0600, AMuzi
>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> You left out the magnitudes larger numbers of enslaved and
>>> murdered Christians in The Sudans, more voluminoulsy in
>>> Nigeria, spreading rapidly in Francophone Africa. Americans
>>> suffer very little in comparison and American victims come
>>> in every shade, like Americans.
>>
>> Well, to be honest France is sort of hoisted on their own
>> petard. They
>> allowed those N. Africans into the country who were
>> fleeing the
>> "freedom fighters" in their own countries and now they
>> have hoards of
>> poorly educated, in some cases non-French speaking,
>> unemployable
>> savages in their country. What to do?
>>
>> As for these Jihads. Well, unfortunately many of them
>> remember a bit
>> of history. N. Africa under the French, Egypt under the
>> English. The
>> middle East under almost everyone. A common "slur" is to
>> refer to
>> White Folks as "Crusaders" who conquer and pretty much
>> enslaved middle
>> east people in the Name of a Jewish Prophet,
>>
>> Try going to any country that was a colony of any of the
>> European
>> nations and get the people to tell you what life was like
>> under the
>> xyz.
>>
>> Remember. History is written by the winners.
>
> Of course, one can do that same exercise by visiting a
> Native American reservation. The U.S. and Canada are
> definitely not without fault. And although I've never been
> there, the same seems true in Australia's and New Zealand's
> treatment of aboriginals. It's probably been going on since
> mankind first existed.
>

I do not have a snappy solution to offer but the policy
failures (or purposeful destruction), not least among which
are no clear land titles on the res, have kept that
population from building wealth, both monetary and cultural.

Oh by the way full free US Government health care since
1803, fully institutionalized in 1910:
https://academic.udayton.edu/health/02organ/Indian02.htm

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>
>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>
>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>>
>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>>>>>
>>>>> Or what?
>>>>
>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>>>> and the society.
>>>
>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
>>> I'll give you...".
>>
>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>
>> Sheesh!
>
> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
> some sort of "government" hospital.
>

As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
no one does serious combat injuries better.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/10/2022 3:21 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 10.03.2022 um 06:27 schrieb John B.:
>> But an "Arab" comes from Arabia - now called Saudi Arabia.
>> Lebanese,
>> for example, although coming from the middle East do not
>> consider
>> themselves Arabs. Nor do Egyptians, or those from Iran, or
>> Pakistani,
>> or Afghanistan.
>
> Right and Wrong. You need to distinguish between culturally
> Arab, racially Arab and nationally Arab.
>
> In North Africa, the majority of the population considers
> themselves "Abrab" in distinction to "Black African" on one
> side and "European" on the other side (Racially, most are
> Berbers but culturally, Berbers are seen to be "backwards
> indigenous", like Tuareg).
>
>
+1

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/10/2022 12:13 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:20:39 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/9/2022 6:34 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 06:17:57 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 14:17:06 -0800 (PST), James Carrington
>>>> <jhcjrx@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 4:16:17 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 2:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 11:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 8:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If the laws and policies of the nation were out of step
>>>>>>>>> with the values of the population generally, they would be
>>>>>>>>> changed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OK. As a first step, a large majority of Americans is in
>>>>>>>> favor of universal background checks before buying guns.
>>>>>>>> That's true even of NRA members. Can we start there?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/views-on-gun-policy/psdt_2017-06-22-guns-05-10/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As with the vigorous debate around the 1968 firearms act, ideas which
>>>>>>> seemed sensible at first were stricken as people thought further about
>>>>>>> the follow on effects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pointedly, a licensed FFL dealer must keep paper records which can be
>>>>>>> retrieved with a warrant in a criminal investigation (I think that's
>>>>>>> unreasonable but I wasn't in Congress at the time and one asked me. It
>>>>>>> passed).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What the Federal government cannot do is keep a national registration
>>>>>>> list. Sensible WWII veterans and survivors of world famous firearms
>>>>>>> registration schemes[1] were in Congress and knew that was an open
>>>>>>> invitation to disaster.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1] https://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even the most notorious left-wing spin organization didn't dispute those
>>>>>>> facts:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/little-gun-history/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Merely noting that the opportunity to subjugate an unarmed population
>>>>>>> doesn't mean the certainty of genocide. Weak argument IMHO.
>>>>>> Like it or not, Snopes is disagreeing with your implied premise: that if
>>>>>> we have universal background checks, the government will soon enslave
>>>>>> all Americans - or whatever you really mean.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Governments have not enslaved all Canadians, British, Irish, French,
>>>>>> Norwegians, Spanish, etc. etc. And as a further detail, a background
>>>>>> check is not the same as a gun registration.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As it is now in the U.S., a confirmed psychopathic sadist can easily and
>>>>>> legally buy a gun. In many states he can carry it almost anywhere
>>>>>> without a permit. In many, he doesn't even have to tell a cop he's
>>>>>> carrying one if a cop stops him for some reason.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does this sound perfectly logical? Gosh, how could anything go wrong?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems to me that Andrew, Johnny, and tommy are all of the same ilk that a few dozen dead children from a school shooting every once in a while are an acceptable price to pay in order to keep unfettered access to fully automatic weapons with high capacity magazines so pot-bellied militia wannbes can play rambo. The 'most notorious left-wing spin organization >snopes' comment is a dead give away (pun intended).
>>>>
>>>> (:-)
>>>> Well lets see. I showed records that demonstrated that somr 500 had
>>>> been killed in what was it? 72 years? of Mass shootings and 50,000
>>>> killed on bicycles during the same period.
>>>>
>>>> And as for "unfettered access to fully automatic weapons"? Nope, not
>>>> in the U.S. since 1934 with the National Firearms Law (or whatever it
>>>> was called) as for the big magazines, well, yes today. But they were
>>>> banned from 1994 until 2004 and the results of the ban was:
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban
>>>> A 2017 review found that there was no evidence that ban had a
>>>> significant effect on firearm homicides.
>>>> A 2014 study found no impacts on homicide rates with an assault weapon
>>>> ban.[29] A 2014 book published by Oxford University Press noted that
>>>> "There is no compelling evidence that [the ban] saved lives."[30][31]
>>>> In 2004, a research report commissioned by the National Institute of
>>>> Justice found that if the ban was renewed, the effects on gun violence
>>>> would likely be small and perhaps too small for reliable measurement
>>>
>>>
>>> An addition to the above Frank challenged me to compare firearm deaths
>>> in Canada with Vermont which has almost unfettered gun access and very
>>> low gun deaths. So Canada - 1.6/100,000, Vermont - 1.3.
>>
>> Don't cheat, John! If you're going to limit the U.S. data to just one
>> state, for honesty you should limit the Canadian data to one adjacent
>> province.
>>
>> From
>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/433663/number-of-homicides-in-canada-by-province/,
>> 87 gun deaths in all of Quebec province. The province's population is
>> 8.5 million. That works out to 1.0 gun death per 100,000 population.
>> It's less than Vermont's 1.3 per 100,000.
>>
>> Or for another honest comparison, let's look at total Canada data and
>> total U.S. data.
>> https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country
>> says Canada is at 2.05 gun deaths per 100,000 population. The U.S. is at
>> 12.21 gun deaths per 100,000. The nation to nation comparison says the
>> U.S. is about six times worse.
>>
>>> So much for Franks's arguments.
>>
>> No, so much for John's honesty.
>
> Well Frank, you used "Canada" so I used "Canada"...

You used Canada, but you cherry picked Vermont. It shouldn't take a lot
of honesty to admit that.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or what?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>>>>> and the society.
>>>>
>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
>>>> I'll give you...".
>>>
>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>>
>>> Sheesh!
>>
>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
>> some sort of "government" hospital.
>>
>
>As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
>veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
>alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
>1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
>says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
>troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
>deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
>no one does serious combat injuries better.

Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
Hospital, suggested fusing two vertebrae as a probably cure for his
problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know what they are
talking about".

Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer work - he was
an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he finally, after
years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two vertebrae.

After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long time ago and
I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He used to say
things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 11:24:13 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/10/2022 12:13 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:20:39 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/9/2022 6:34 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 06:17:57 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 14:17:06 -0800 (PST), James Carrington
>>>>> <jhcjrx@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 4:16:17 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 2:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 11:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 8:53 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If the laws and policies of the nation were out of step
>>>>>>>>>> with the values of the population generally, they would be
>>>>>>>>>> changed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OK. As a first step, a large majority of Americans is in
>>>>>>>>> favor of universal background checks before buying guns.
>>>>>>>>> That's true even of NRA members. Can we start there?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/views-on-gun-policy/psdt_2017-06-22-guns-05-10/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As with the vigorous debate around the 1968 firearms act, ideas which
>>>>>>>> seemed sensible at first were stricken as people thought further about
>>>>>>>> the follow on effects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pointedly, a licensed FFL dealer must keep paper records which can be
>>>>>>>> retrieved with a warrant in a criminal investigation (I think that's
>>>>>>>> unreasonable but I wasn't in Congress at the time and one asked me. It
>>>>>>>> passed).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What the Federal government cannot do is keep a national registration
>>>>>>>> list. Sensible WWII veterans and survivors of world famous firearms
>>>>>>>> registration schemes[1] were in Congress and knew that was an open
>>>>>>>> invitation to disaster.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1] https://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Even the most notorious left-wing spin organization didn't dispute those
>>>>>>>> facts:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/little-gun-history/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Merely noting that the opportunity to subjugate an unarmed population
>>>>>>>> doesn't mean the certainty of genocide. Weak argument IMHO.
>>>>>>> Like it or not, Snopes is disagreeing with your implied premise: that if
>>>>>>> we have universal background checks, the government will soon enslave
>>>>>>> all Americans - or whatever you really mean.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Governments have not enslaved all Canadians, British, Irish, French,
>>>>>>> Norwegians, Spanish, etc. etc. And as a further detail, a background
>>>>>>> check is not the same as a gun registration.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As it is now in the U.S., a confirmed psychopathic sadist can easily and
>>>>>>> legally buy a gun. In many states he can carry it almost anywhere
>>>>>>> without a permit. In many, he doesn't even have to tell a cop he's
>>>>>>> carrying one if a cop stops him for some reason.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does this sound perfectly logical? Gosh, how could anything go wrong?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems to me that Andrew, Johnny, and tommy are all of the same ilk that a few dozen dead children from a school shooting every once in a while are an acceptable price to pay in order to keep unfettered access to fully automatic weapons with high capacity magazines so pot-bellied militia wannbes can play rambo. The 'most notorious left-wing spin organization >snopes' comment is a dead give away (pun intended).
>>>>>
>>>>> (:-)
>>>>> Well lets see. I showed records that demonstrated that somr 500 had
>>>>> been killed in what was it? 72 years? of Mass shootings and 50,000
>>>>> killed on bicycles during the same period.
>>>>>
>>>>> And as for "unfettered access to fully automatic weapons"? Nope, not
>>>>> in the U.S. since 1934 with the National Firearms Law (or whatever it
>>>>> was called) as for the big magazines, well, yes today. But they were
>>>>> banned from 1994 until 2004 and the results of the ban was:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban
>>>>> A 2017 review found that there was no evidence that ban had a
>>>>> significant effect on firearm homicides.
>>>>> A 2014 study found no impacts on homicide rates with an assault weapon
>>>>> ban.[29] A 2014 book published by Oxford University Press noted that
>>>>> "There is no compelling evidence that [the ban] saved lives."[30][31]
>>>>> In 2004, a research report commissioned by the National Institute of
>>>>> Justice found that if the ban was renewed, the effects on gun violence
>>>>> would likely be small and perhaps too small for reliable measurement
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An addition to the above Frank challenged me to compare firearm deaths
>>>> in Canada with Vermont which has almost unfettered gun access and very
>>>> low gun deaths. So Canada - 1.6/100,000, Vermont - 1.3.
>>>
>>> Don't cheat, John! If you're going to limit the U.S. data to just one
>>> state, for honesty you should limit the Canadian data to one adjacent
>>> province.
>>>
>>> From
>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/433663/number-of-homicides-in-canada-by-province/,
>>> 87 gun deaths in all of Quebec province. The province's population is
>>> 8.5 million. That works out to 1.0 gun death per 100,000 population.
>>> It's less than Vermont's 1.3 per 100,000.
>>>
>>> Or for another honest comparison, let's look at total Canada data and
>>> total U.S. data.
>>> https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country
>>> says Canada is at 2.05 gun deaths per 100,000 population. The U.S. is at
>>> 12.21 gun deaths per 100,000. The nation to nation comparison says the
>>> U.S. is about six times worse.
>>>
>>>> So much for Franks's arguments.
>>>
>>> No, so much for John's honesty.
>>
>> Well Frank, you used "Canada" so I used "Canada"...
>
>You used Canada, but you cherry picked Vermont. It shouldn't take a lot
>of honesty to admit that.

Ah... how quickly they forget.
You used Canada in comparison to the U.S. quite some time ago. I
simply, not forgetting your reference, used it again in my comparison.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:46:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/9/2022 9:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of
>>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of
>>>>>>>>>>>> deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>>> areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but
>>>>>>>>>>> upthread
>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern
>>>>>>>>>>> Republican
>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger
>>>>>>>>>>> right wing
>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are
>>>>>>>>>> concentrated
>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national
>>>>>>>>>> program
>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity
>>>>>>>>>> instead.
>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under
>>>>>>>>>> the same
>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita
>>>>>>>>> tend to be
>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using
>>>>>>>>> any one
>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime
>>>>>>>>> rates,
>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red
>>>>>>>>> states tend
>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last
>>>>>>>>> election of
>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels,
>>>>>>>>> only 1,
>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won
>>>>>>>>> with poorly
>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major
>>>>>>>> parties.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the
>>>>>>> voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social
>>>>>>> Security,
>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it),
>>>>>>> food and housing
>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our
>>>>>> memory.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents
>>>>> U.S., and free
>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>
>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security,
>>>>> etc., are not
>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>
>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>>
>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their
>>>>> citizens?
>>>>>
>>>>> Or what?
>>>>
>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is
>>>> true in most
>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for
>>>> the citizenry
>>>> and the society.
>>>
>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never
>>> discussed.I stated
>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American
>>> Public." and that
>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters,
>>> "Elect me and
>>> I'll give you...".
>>
>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>
>> Sheesh!
>>
>>
>
>+1
>Even I recognize that moral turpitude in both voters and
>candidates of late.

But, in reality, isn't promising someone something "if you do this" or
"that" really very much a factor in everyday life. "I'll give you this
bicycle if you give me some money" (:-)

How can politics be any different? I distinctly remember a chap
running for reelection as a U.S. Senator, making a speech in which he
promised the electorate in Portsmouth N.H. "if elected I promise that
the Portsmouth Navy Yard will not be closed". In other words, "you
will get to keep your job". needless to say, he was reelected.

I don't remember the reference but I definitely remember someone,
somewhere, arguing that the poor should not be allowed to vote on the
question of increasing aid to the poor as obviously they will vote in
favor of the idea.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>>>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or what?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>>>>>> and the society.
>>>>>
>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
>>>>> I'll give you...".
>>>>
>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>>>
>>>> Sheesh!
>>>
>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
>>>
>>
>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
>> deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
>
> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
> Hospital, suggested fusing two vertebrae as a probably cure for his
> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know what they are
> talking about".
>
> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer work - he was
> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he finally, after
> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two vertebrae.
>
> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long time ago and
> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He used to say
> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
>

As I noted, a mixed bag. My two Senators are as far apart
politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
this:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:12:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>>>>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or what?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>>>>>>> and the society.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
>>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
>>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
>>>>>> I'll give you...".
>>>>>
>>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sheesh!
>>>>
>>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
>>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
>>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
>>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
>>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
>>>>
>>>
>>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
>>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
>>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
>>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
>>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
>>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
>>> deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
>>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
>>
>> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
>> Hospital, suggested fusing two vertebrae as a probably cure for his
>> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know what they are
>> talking about".
>>
>> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer work - he was
>> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he finally, after
>> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two vertebrae.
>>
>> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long time ago and
>> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He used to say
>> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
>>
>
>As I noted, a mixed bag. My two Senators are as far apart
>politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
>this:
>
>https://revealnews.org/article/alarm-over-wisconsin-vas-troubles-follows-years-of-complaints/

On 3/10/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:12:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>>>>>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>>>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Or what?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>>>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>>>>>>>> and the society.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
>>>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
>>>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
>>>>>>> I'll give you...".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sheesh!
>>>>>
>>>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
>>>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
>>>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
>>>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
>>>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
>>>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
>>>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
>>>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
>>>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
>>>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
>>>> deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
>>>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
>>>
>>> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
>>> Hospital, suggested fusing two vertebrae as a probably cure for his
>>> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know what they are
>>> talking about".
>>>
>>> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer work - he was
>>> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he finally, after
>>> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two vertebrae.
>>>
>>> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long time ago and
>>> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He used to say
>>> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
>>>
>>
>> As I noted, a mixed bag. My two Senators are as far apart
>> politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
>> this:
>>
>> https://revealnews.org/article/alarm-over-wisconsin-vas-troubles-follows-years-of-complaints/
>
> I read that reference and it seemed to me that it was largely about a
> single individual, a "chief of staff, psychiatrist Dr. David Houlihan"
> who seems to have subscribed substantial amounts of "opiates" and "bad
> mouthed" those who "bad mouthed" him. But all of the complaints seem
> to come from non-medically qualified people. i.e., not other doctors
> on the staff.
>
> Not to argue right or wrong, but I wonder what the patients had to
> say?
>

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:34:40 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/10/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:12:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>>>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>>>>>>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>>>>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Or what?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>>>>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>>>>>>>>> and the society.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
>>>>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
>>>>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
>>>>>>>> I'll give you...".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sheesh!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
>>>>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
>>>>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
>>>>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
>>>>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
>>>>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
>>>>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
>>>>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
>>>>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
>>>>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
>>>>> deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
>>>>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
>>>>
>>>> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
>>>> Hospital, suggested fusing two vertebrae as a probably cure for his
>>>> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know what they are
>>>> talking about".
>>>>
>>>> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer work - he was
>>>> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he finally, after
>>>> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two vertebrae.
>>>>
>>>> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long time ago and
>>>> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He used to say
>>>> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
>>>>
>>>
>>> As I noted, a mixed bag. My two Senators are as far apart
>>> politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
>>> this:
>>>
>>> https://revealnews.org/article/alarm-over-wisconsin-vas-troubles-follows-years-of-complaints/
>>
>> I read that reference and it seemed to me that it was largely about a
>> single individual, a "chief of staff, psychiatrist Dr. David Houlihan"
>> who seems to have subscribed substantial amounts of "opiates" and "bad
>> mouthed" those who "bad mouthed" him. But all of the complaints seem
>> to come from non-medically qualified people. i.e., not other doctors
>> on the staff.
>>
>> Not to argue right or wrong, but I wonder what the patients had to
>> say?
>>
>
>The dead ones didn't have much to add. It seems, as with the
>Indian Health Service pederasts, that management knew they
>had a problem but between civil service rules and general
>cowardice, did nothing.

On 3/10/2022 10:19 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:34:40 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 3/10/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:12:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>>>>>>>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>>>>>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Or what?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>>>>>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>>>>>>>>>> and the society.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
>>>>>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
>>>>>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
>>>>>>>>> I'll give you...".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sheesh!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
>>>>>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
>>>>>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
>>>>>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
>>>>>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
>>>>>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
>>>>>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
>>>>>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
>>>>>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
>>>>>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
>>>>>> deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
>>>>>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
>>>>> Hospital, suggested fusing two vertebrae as a probably cure for his
>>>>> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know what they are
>>>>> talking about".
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer work - he was
>>>>> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he finally, after
>>>>> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two vertebrae.
>>>>>
>>>>> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long time ago and
>>>>> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He used to say
>>>>> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I noted, a mixed bag. My two Senators are as far apart
>>>> politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
>>>> this:
>>>>
>>>> https://revealnews.org/article/alarm-over-wisconsin-vas-troubles-follows-years-of-complaints/
>>>
>>> I read that reference and it seemed to me that it was largely about a
>>> single individual, a "chief of staff, psychiatrist Dr. David Houlihan"
>>> who seems to have subscribed substantial amounts of "opiates" and "bad
>>> mouthed" those who "bad mouthed" him. But all of the complaints seem
>>> to come from non-medically qualified people. i.e., not other doctors
>>> on the staff.
>>>
>>> Not to argue right or wrong, but I wonder what the patients had to
>>> say?
>>>
>>
>> The dead ones didn't have much to add. It seems, as with the
>> Indian Health Service pederasts, that management knew they
>> had a problem but between civil service rules and general
>> cowardice, did nothing.
>
> Indian Health? I thought it was a VA Hospital (:-)
>
> But as I said, did anyone ask the patients? Or the patients families?
> Not really an argument but what was the result of this "excess
> medication" to the patient or his or her's family?
>
> Yes the article mentions "overdose" but an "overdose" is "more then
> the prescribed dose", is it not.
>
> But, more to the point, read the actual I.G. Report. It reads to me,
> at least, like a bunch of disgruntled pharmacist who made a loud noise
> about what the doctor was prescribing.
>
> But, more to the point, the Summations and Conclusions of the report
> state:
>
> "We did not substantiate the majority of the allegations ,made in the
> various complaints received... and... "Although allegations dealing
> with overuse of narcotics at the facility may have some merit they do
> not constitute evidence of wrongdoing. We did not find any conclusive
> evidence affirming criminal activity, gross clinical incompetence or
> negligence or administrative practices illegal or violated personnel
> policies".
>
Here's what DVA says :
https://www.disabledveterans.org/2015/02/25/wisconsin-va-opioid-scandal-hits-national-news/

On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 5:34:45 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/10/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:12:47 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
> >>>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
> >>>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
> >>>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
> >>>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
> >>>>>>>>> for those over 60.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
> >>>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Or what?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
> >>>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
> >>>>>>>> and the society.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
> >>>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
> >>>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
> >>>>>>> I'll give you...".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sheesh!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
> >>>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
> >>>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
> >>>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
> >>>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
> >>>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
> >>>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
> >>>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
> >>>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
> >>>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
> >>>> deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
> >>>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
> >>>
> >>> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
> >>> Hospital, suggested fusing two vertebrae as a probably cure for his
> >>> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know what they are
> >>> talking about".
> >>>
> >>> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer work - he was
> >>> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he finally, after
> >>> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two vertebrae.
> >>>
> >>> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long time ago and
> >>> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He used to say
> >>> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
> >>>
> >>
> >> As I noted, a mixed bag. My two Senators are as far apart
> >> politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
> >> this:
> >>
> >> https://revealnews.org/article/alarm-over-wisconsin-vas-troubles-follows-years-of-complaints/
> >
> > I read that reference and it seemed to me that it was largely about a
> > single individual, a "chief of staff, psychiatrist Dr. David Houlihan"
> > who seems to have subscribed substantial amounts of "opiates" and "bad
> > mouthed" those who "bad mouthed" him. But all of the complaints seem
> > to come from non-medically qualified people. i.e., not other doctors
> > on the staff.
> >
> > Not to argue right or wrong, but I wonder what the patients had to
> > say?
> >
> The dead ones didn't have much to add. It seems, as with the
> Indian Health Service pederasts, that management knew they
> had a problem but between civil service rules and general
> cowardice, did nothing.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 07:49:56 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/10/2022 10:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:34:40 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/10/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:12:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>>>>>>>>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>>>>>>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Or what?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>>>>>>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>>>>>>>>>>> and the society.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
>>>>>>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
>>>>>>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
>>>>>>>>>> I'll give you...".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sheesh!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
>>>>>>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
>>>>>>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
>>>>>>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
>>>>>>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
>>>>>>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
>>>>>>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
>>>>>>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
>>>>>>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
>>>>>>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
>>>>>>> deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
>>>>>>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
>>>>>> Hospital, suggested fusing two vertebrae as a probably cure for his
>>>>>> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know what they are
>>>>>> talking about".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer work - he was
>>>>>> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he finally, after
>>>>>> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two vertebrae.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long time ago and
>>>>>> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He used to say
>>>>>> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As I noted, a mixed bag. My two Senators are as far apart
>>>>> politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
>>>>> this:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://revealnews.org/article/alarm-over-wisconsin-vas-troubles-follows-years-of-complaints/
>>>>
>>>> I read that reference and it seemed to me that it was largely about a
>>>> single individual, a "chief of staff, psychiatrist Dr. David Houlihan"
>>>> who seems to have subscribed substantial amounts of "opiates" and "bad
>>>> mouthed" those who "bad mouthed" him. But all of the complaints seem
>>>> to come from non-medically qualified people. i.e., not other doctors
>>>> on the staff.
>>>>
>>>> Not to argue right or wrong, but I wonder what the patients had to
>>>> say?
>>>>
>>>
>>> The dead ones didn't have much to add. It seems, as with the
>>> Indian Health Service pederasts, that management knew they
>>> had a problem but between civil service rules and general
>>> cowardice, did nothing.
>>
>> Indian Health? I thought it was a VA Hospital (:-)
>>
>> But as I said, did anyone ask the patients? Or the patients families?
>> Not really an argument but what was the result of this "excess
>> medication" to the patient or his or her's family?
>>
>> Yes the article mentions "overdose" but an "overdose" is "more then
>> the prescribed dose", is it not.
>>
>> But, more to the point, read the actual I.G. Report. It reads to me,
>> at least, like a bunch of disgruntled pharmacist who made a loud noise
>> about what the doctor was prescribing.
>>
>> But, more to the point, the Summations and Conclusions of the report
>> state:
>>
>> "We did not substantiate the majority of the allegations ,made in the
>> various complaints received... and... "Although allegations dealing
>> with overuse of narcotics at the facility may have some merit they do
>> not constitute evidence of wrongdoing. We did not find any conclusive
>> evidence affirming criminal activity, gross clinical incompetence or
>> negligence or administrative practices illegal or violated personnel
>> policies".
>>
>Here's what DVA says :
>https://www.disabledveterans.org/2015/02/25/wisconsin-va-opioid-scandal-hits-national-news/

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 08:30:43 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 5:34:45 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 3/10/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:12:47 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> >>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>> >>>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>> >>>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>> >>>>>>>>> for those over 60.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>> >>>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Or what?
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>> >>>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>> >>>>>>>> and the society.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
>> >>>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
>> >>>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
>> >>>>>>> I'll give you...".
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Sheesh!
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
>> >>>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
>> >>>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
>> >>>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
>> >>>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
>> >>>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
>> >>>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
>> >>>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
>> >>>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
>> >>>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
>> >>>> deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
>> >>>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
>> >>>
>> >>> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
>> >>> Hospital, suggested fusing two vertebrae as a probably cure for his
>> >>> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know what they are
>> >>> talking about".
>> >>>
>> >>> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer work - he was
>> >>> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he finally, after
>> >>> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two vertebrae.
>> >>>
>> >>> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long time ago and
>> >>> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He used to say
>> >>> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> As I noted, a mixed bag. My two Senators are as far apart
>> >> politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
>> >> this:
>> >>
>> >> https://revealnews.org/article/alarm-over-wisconsin-vas-troubles-follows-years-of-complaints/
>> >
>> > I read that reference and it seemed to me that it was largely about a
>> > single individual, a "chief of staff, psychiatrist Dr. David Houlihan"
>> > who seems to have subscribed substantial amounts of "opiates" and "bad
>> > mouthed" those who "bad mouthed" him. But all of the complaints seem
>> > to come from non-medically qualified people. i.e., not other doctors
>> > on the staff.
>> >
>> > Not to argue right or wrong, but I wonder what the patients had to
>> > say?
>> >
>> The dead ones didn't have much to add. It seems, as with the
>> Indian Health Service pederasts, that management knew they
>> had a problem but between civil service rules and general
>> cowardice, did nothing.
>
>Why would you suppose that VA patients or their survivors complaints don't seem valid to John? Not medically qualified? When you discover your father addicted to opiates in a VA hospital wouldn't you think that a valid complaint?

On 3/11/2022 6:49 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 07:49:56 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 3/10/2022 10:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:34:40 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/10/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:12:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/10/2022 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:59:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 10:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 22:23:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2022 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:40:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for those over 60.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> socialistic services as I stated?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or what?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
>>>>>>>>>>>> places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
>>>>>>>>>>>> and the society.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But Frank, you are arguing a "fact" that was never discussed.I stated
>>>>>>>>>>> that " But socialism is so appealing to the American Public." and that
>>>>>>>>>>> the way to get elected was to , "to tell the voters, "Elect me and
>>>>>>>>>>> I'll give you...".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wasn't arguing. I was agreeing with you.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sheesh!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A change of subject, but I believe that the U.S. has had what might be
>>>>>>>>> called "socialized medicine" since just after WW II. I had an uncle
>>>>>>>>> who was wounded in combat and had back problems for years after and I
>>>>>>>>> remember him going to "The Veteran's Hospital" which, I believe, was
>>>>>>>>> some sort of "government" hospital.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As with any large institution, a mixed bag. I know a lot of
>>>>>>>> veterans who avoid the VA where there is any other
>>>>>>>> alternate. Then again a valued customer (Special Forces
>>>>>>>> 1963~1966) of long standing says he used to avoid them, but
>>>>>>>> says once one develops the usual panoply of 'old man
>>>>>>>> troubles' they are tops. Locally, we've had serious VA
>>>>>>>> deficiencies which became national news while simultaneously
>>>>>>>> no one does serious combat injuries better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not to argue but in my uncle's case the doctors, at the Vet's
>>>>>>> Hospital, suggested fusing two vertebrae as a probably cure for his
>>>>>>> problem. Which he resisted for years - "they don't know what they are
>>>>>>> talking about".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Finally the pain grew so great that he could no longer work - he was
>>>>>>> an electrician doing mostly construction work - and he finally, after
>>>>>>> years of pain decided to let them go ahead and fuse two vertebrae.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After, perhaps, two weeks in the hospital (it was a long time ago and
>>>>>>> I forget) he got out and was able to go back to work. He used to say
>>>>>>> things like, "Gee I wish they had done this years ago."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I noted, a mixed bag. My two Senators are as far apart
>>>>>> politically as any two Americans could be, yet they agree on
>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://revealnews.org/article/alarm-over-wisconsin-vas-troubles-follows-years-of-complaints/
>>>>>
>>>>> I read that reference and it seemed to me that it was largely about a
>>>>> single individual, a "chief of staff, psychiatrist Dr. David Houlihan"
>>>>> who seems to have subscribed substantial amounts of "opiates" and "bad
>>>>> mouthed" those who "bad mouthed" him. But all of the complaints seem
>>>>> to come from non-medically qualified people. i.e., not other doctors
>>>>> on the staff.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not to argue right or wrong, but I wonder what the patients had to
>>>>> say?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The dead ones didn't have much to add. It seems, as with the
>>>> Indian Health Service pederasts, that management knew they
>>>> had a problem but between civil service rules and general
>>>> cowardice, did nothing.
>>>
>>> Indian Health? I thought it was a VA Hospital (:-)
>>>
>>> But as I said, did anyone ask the patients? Or the patients families?
>>> Not really an argument but what was the result of this "excess
>>> medication" to the patient or his or her's family?
>>>
>>> Yes the article mentions "overdose" but an "overdose" is "more then
>>> the prescribed dose", is it not.
>>>
>>> But, more to the point, read the actual I.G. Report. It reads to me,
>>> at least, like a bunch of disgruntled pharmacist who made a loud noise
>>> about what the doctor was prescribing.
>>>
>>> But, more to the point, the Summations and Conclusions of the report
>>> state:
>>>
>>> "We did not substantiate the majority of the allegations ,made in the
>>> various complaints received... and... "Although allegations dealing
>>> with overuse of narcotics at the facility may have some merit they do
>>> not constitute evidence of wrongdoing. We did not find any conclusive
>>> evidence affirming criminal activity, gross clinical incompetence or
>>> negligence or administrative practices illegal or violated personnel
>>> policies".
>>>
>> Here's what DVA says :
>> https://www.disabledveterans.org/2015/02/25/wisconsin-va-opioid-scandal-hits-national-news/
>
> Yup, I read that and there is a certain amount of "Oh My God! Ain't It
> Awful!" written there. One Veteran was described as " taking over one
> dozen drugs" Oh! My! Goodness!
>
> But right now, today, I am taking 9 pills in the morning, 3 after
> supper and 2 before I go to bed at night. For 3 different physical
> problems.
>
> But, more to the point, has anyone asked the patients what they think.
> Or their parents, wife, etc?
>