On 5/16/2022 12:19 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 10:49:15 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/15/2022 8:10 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 07:04:30 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Every religion was invented. Further, everyone invents their own version.
>>>
>>> Yes, which is the problem in discussing religion. Everybody "knows"
>>> that he/she/it is Right! and if you disagree you are Wrong!
>> That "everybody" should not be so absolute. One can have a very
>> intelligent and enlightening conversation with an expert on comparative
>> religion.
>>
>
> You don't need to be an expert, just don't an arrogant asshole about it (aka tom/andre).

Good point.

--
- Frank Krygowski

with <do738h5kou5marduf3buqi4jaossffbra8@4ax.com> John B wrote:
> On Sun, 15 May 2022 16:31:58 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> On 5/15/2022 3:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 12:32:12 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 5/15/2022 12:31 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:01:32 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/15/2022 10:49 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 8:37:15 AM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>>>>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2022 8:28 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:

*SKIP*
>> If you recall in early March here I wrote that the Russian attack
>> would encounter great difficulties as the number of attacking points
>> was too large for the available resources. My prime tutors in these
>> matters are a 1990s Army tank captain and a retired Seal. Both noted
>> the Russia's severe lack of competent career line officers and
>> noncoms, which can be disastrous in an army of 2-year conscripts.
>
> There are many intangibles.
>
> The Russian troops may to be poorly trained and led. The Russians
> have something like 10 times as many aircraft as the Ukrainians but
> don't seem to be using them. Russia has a great many missals, from
> 2012 and as of December 2020, the number of long-range land-, sea-,
> and air-launched cruise missiles increased by 37 times. The number of
> their cruise missile carriers was also increased by 13 times, but they
> don't seem to be using them. The Russians have a number of TU-160
> bombers with a total munitions load of 88,000 lbs, but they don't seem
> to be using them.

I see "GDP of China" all over again.

> What is Russia's plans for the East Ukraine, if conquered.

Genocide.

> And, and, and.

AIUI your sources have changed tune. Interesting.

--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 8:10:39 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:

> >Every religion was invented. Further, everyone invents their own version.
> Yes, which is the problem in discussing religion. Everybody "knows"
> that he/she/it is Right! and if you disagree you are Wrong!
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

We all worship the same God.

You in your way, ....and ..............we in His.

(Joke told by the commencement speaker at Notre Dame during the 70s.)

On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 1:09:02 PM UTC-7, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 8:10:39 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>
> > >Every religion was invented. Further, everyone invents their own version.
> > Yes, which is the problem in discussing religion. Everybody "knows"
> > that he/she/it is Right! and if you disagree you are Wrong!
> > --
> > Cheers,
> >
> > John B.
>
> We all worship the same God.
>
> You in your way, ....and ..............we in His.
>
> (Joke told by the commencement speaker at Notre Dame during the 70s.)
Well, by the time John figures it out it will be too late.

On Mon, 16 May 2022 11:16:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/15/2022 11:15 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 22:49:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/15/2022 8:10 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 07:04:30 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Every religion was invented. Further, everyone invents their own version.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, which is the problem in discussing religion. Everybody "knows"
>>>> that he/she/it is Right! and if you disagree you are Wrong!
>>>
>>> That "everybody" should not be so absolute. One can have a very
>>> intelligent and enlightening conversation with an expert on comparative
>>> religion.
>>
>> Of course you can have a discussion but do you change his.her/it's
>> beliefs? I've had discussion about the Shintoism ( Japanese
>> traditional religion), Buddhism, Muslim and even Christianity, in
>> various forms. I can't say that I ever changed anyone's beliefs, nor
>> had mine changed.
>
>In my discussions, I wasn't trying to change his or anyone else's
>beliefs, and neither was he. But he was remarkably tolerant of others'
>beliefs, pretty much the polar opposite of "I'm right and anyone else is
>wrong."
>
>My point here is that at least some people can discuss religion
>intelligently. They can go far, far beyond simple proselytizing.

Yes, I can see how "religion" can be discussed, in the abstract, which
is, in effect, meaningless. Example, you might be interested to know
that one grouping of Muslims believe that the proper way to pray is to
kneels down and literally bang your head on the ground/floor. to the
extent this group can be identified by the scar or bruise on their
forehead.

Will this knowledge effect the way that you pray, or your opinion in
the best way to pray? Probably not. Will it effect the way that "they"
pray, again probably not. It is simply meaningless information about a
"strange" group of people.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 16 May 2022 13:09:01 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
<timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 8:10:39 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>
>> >Every religion was invented. Further, everyone invents their own version.
>> Yes, which is the problem in discussing religion. Everybody "knows"
>> that he/she/it is Right! and if you disagree you are Wrong!
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>We all worship the same God.
>
>You in your way, ....and ..............we in His.
>
>(Joke told by the commencement speaker at Notre Dame during the 70s.)

Yes, but exactly as I pointed out above (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/16/2022 6:05 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2022 11:16:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 5/15/2022 11:15 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 22:49:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/15/2022 8:10 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 07:04:30 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Every religion was invented. Further, everyone invents their own version.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, which is the problem in discussing religion. Everybody "knows"
>>>>> that he/she/it is Right! and if you disagree you are Wrong!
>>>>
>>>> That "everybody" should not be so absolute. One can have a very
>>>> intelligent and enlightening conversation with an expert on comparative
>>>> religion.
>>>
>>> Of course you can have a discussion but do you change his.her/it's
>>> beliefs? I've had discussion about the Shintoism ( Japanese
>>> traditional religion), Buddhism, Muslim and even Christianity, in
>>> various forms. I can't say that I ever changed anyone's beliefs, nor
>>> had mine changed.
>>
>> In my discussions, I wasn't trying to change his or anyone else's
>> beliefs, and neither was he. But he was remarkably tolerant of others'
>> beliefs, pretty much the polar opposite of "I'm right and anyone else is
>> wrong."
>>
>> My point here is that at least some people can discuss religion
>> intelligently. They can go far, far beyond simple proselytizing.
>
> Yes, I can see how "religion" can be discussed, in the abstract, which
> is, in effect, meaningless. Example, you might be interested to know
> that one grouping of Muslims believe that the proper way to pray is to
> kneels down and literally bang your head on the ground/floor. to the
> extent this group can be identified by the scar or bruise on their
> forehead.
>
> Will this knowledge effect the way that you pray, or your opinion in
> the best way to pray? Probably not. Will it effect the way that "they"
> pray, again probably not. It is simply meaningless information about a
> "strange" group of people.
>

Never better phrased than by Jonathan Swift:

It is allowed on all hands, that the primitive way of
breaking eggs before we eat them, was upon the larger end:
but his present Majesty's grandfather, while he was a boy,
going to eat an egg, and breaking it according to the
ancient practice, happened to cut one of his fingers.
Whereupon the Emperor his father published an edict,
commanding all his subjects, upon great penalties, to break
the smaller end of their eggs.

The people so highly resented this law, that our
Histories tell us there have been six rebellions raised on
that account, wherein one Emperor lost his life, and another
his crown. These civil commotions were constantly formented
by the monarchs of Blefuscu, and when they were quelled, the
exiles always fled for refuge to that Empire.

It is computed, that eleven thousand persons have, at
several times, suffered death, rather than submit to break
their eggs at the smaller end. Many hundred large volums
have been published upon this controversy: but the books of
the Big-Endians have been long forbidden, and the whole
party rendered incapable by law of holding employments.

During the course of these troubles, the emperors of
Blefuscu did frequently expostulate by their ambassadors,
accusing us of making a schism in religion, by offending
against a fundamental doctrine of our great prophet Lustrog,
in the fifty-fourth chapter of the Brundecral (which is
their Alcoran). This, however, is thought to be a mere
strain upon the text: for their words are these; That all
true believers shall break their eggs at the convenient end:
and which is the convenient end, seems, in my humble
opinion, to be left to every man's conscience, or at least
in the power of the chief magistrate to determine.

from Gulliver's Travels

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 16 May 2022 09:17:30 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 8:10:39 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 07:04:30 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 4:53:21 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 1:15:59 PM UTC-7, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> > On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 5:05:14 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> >> > > Like most things from history it is subject to interpretation. As an
>> >> > > example, the oldest known written copy of the Commandments, on a
>> >> > > tablet of stone, says "thou shall not commit murder" while many modern
>> >> > > Christian Bibles say "thou shall not kill". Perhaps subtle but a
>> >> > > difference never the less.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > --
>> >> > > Cheers,
>> >> > >
>> >> > > John B.
>> >> > I beg to differ. (I'm splitting hairs here a bit; since you capitalized Commandments I assume you intend to refer to the classic Ten, rather than the 624 total. If not you can weasel out) The Ten Commandments say neither murder nor kill.
>> >> >
>> >> > We know there was something called the Ten. We get our Sunday School versions of the Ten from Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5. However, if you actually look these up, you will notice something strange. First, nowhere do they claim to be the Ten. Second, there is no easy way to get Ten separate commandments out of either text. It just doesn't line up that way. Give them to someone not familiar, and usually they'll see 14 to 19. Try it yourself.
>> >> >
>> >> > However, there IS one place in the Old Testament that specifically lists the Ten Commandments and makes the claim. Unfortunately Exodus 34 doesn't contain the usual Ten, other than not making idols and honoring the Sabbath. This is sometimes called the Ritual Decalogue. When Ten Commandments is referred to in scripture, it is always the ritual Ten and not the modern Sunday School Ten.
>> >> Uh, I hope you know that not too long ago the recovered stone tablets of Moses were found and recent sold for $850,000. There were supposedly ten commandments on it. Rather weather worn but you cannot invent your own religion.
>> >
>> >Every religion was invented. Further, everyone invents their own version.
>> Yes, which is the problem in discussing religion. Everybody "knows"
>> that he/she/it is Right! and if you disagree you are Wrong!
>> --
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANNX_XiuA78

Yes, I've read that "story", and unfortunately it is true.
Witness the multitude of "inter-Christian" wars where each side was
merrily slaughtering the "others" in the name of God.

And, it might be noted, this is not confined to the Christians, the
Muslims have been fighting each other since The Prophet Muhammad died.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 16 May 2022 09:23:12 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/15/2022 10:43 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:54:35 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 19:01:20 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/15/2022 6:17 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 11:01:24 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/15/2022 10:49 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 8:37:15 AM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>>>>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2022 8:28 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A friend's daughter is working in Ireland right now. I
>>>>>>>>>> bet Ireland would be a nice place to ride a bike. Except they
>>>>>>>>>> drive/ride on the wrong side of the road. On my three bike rides
>>>>>>>>>> in Europe, I was very glad they drove/rode on the right side of the
>>>>>>>>>> road.
>>>>>>>> Another indication that russ...'s mental operating capacity must be
>>>>>>>> rather limited.
>>>>>>>>> +1 Between left side and signage in Gaelic, girlfriend had some scary
>>>>>>>>> moments driving a rental car in Ireland.
>>>>>>>> And not even a stick-shift? What an ill-prepared, American driver!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> After Brexit, I ironically expected "Gaelic, Estonian, and Hungarian" to
>>>>>>>> become the EU's exclusive official languages, to "further strengthen
>>>>>>>> cohesion." Now, I'm more serious than ever about it -- because I would
>>>>>>>> not have to bear hearing vonderLeyen speak, but only her interpreters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Seriously, I am quite surprised that Germany would remain in an EU that is anything other than military cooperation should that ever become necessary. I think that the Russian invasion of the Ukraine has shown that will probably never become even a viable option for the Russians. Against even the Germans, Russia would not become helpless unless it was Germany invading Russia where every Russian then becomes a defender. Clearly offense is much harder than defense so Germany who have learned a very hard lesson could stop anything short of a nuclear exchange with ease.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They took a miserable 2d Place to the Red Army last time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Too many factors to call it either way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Has anyone conquered Russia? Well, in the 600 years or so?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Besides the Bolsheviks? Not yet.
>>> I was going to ask, "But is a civil war being conquered" but then I
>>> remember when I live in Georgia and Alabama
>>> (Save your Confederate money. the South will rise again)
>>> (:-)
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John B.
>>
>> Concerning your comment above. I recall hearing a story about George Patton. And him saying the USA had never been defeated in a war. The person writing the story brought up the fact Patton's grandfather served in the Confederacy during the Civil War. And the south did lose the Civil War. So either Patton did not know his own family history. Not credible. Since his father and grandfather and he himself all went to Virginia Military Institute. Or Patton used very selective memory, like our Tommy boy, to wipe away the fact his own grandpa fought on the losing side of the Civil War. Now I realize George Patton was born twenty years after the Civil War ended, 1885, so he himself had no direct connection to the Civil War. So its possible in his mind he did not think of the Civil War as a real war since no foreign power was involved. So his grandpa and his dad being on the Confederate side was not really a loss. And the USA, his country, won.
>>
>
>??
>The defeat of CSA relates in what way to 'USA had never been
>defeated in a war' ?
>
>You might have just as well asked the same question
>regarding Shay's Rebellion or Philadelphia MOVE or Weather
>Underground...
>
>A better case might have been made about burning the White
>House and sacking DC in 1814 although 'defeat' is a stronger
>word than 'chastisement'.

Well... The war of 1812 started with the US declaring war on 18 June
1812 and ending with negotiations (at Ghent), so no "defeat" there.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 16 May 2022 07:50:01 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 7:23:23 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/15/2022 10:43 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:54:35 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 15 May 2022 19:01:20 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On 5/15/2022 6:17 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 11:01:24 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On 5/15/2022 10:49 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>>>>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 8:37:15 AM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>> >>>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> On 5/14/2022 8:28 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> A friend's daughter is working in Ireland right now. I
>> >>>>>>>>> bet Ireland would be a nice place to ride a bike. Except they
>> >>>>>>>>> drive/ride on the wrong side of the road. On my three bike rides
>> >>>>>>>>> in Europe, I was very glad they drove/rode on the right side of the
>> >>>>>>>>> road.
>> >>>>>>> Another indication that russ...'s mental operating capacity must be
>> >>>>>>> rather limited.
>> >>>>>>>> +1 Between left side and signage in Gaelic, girlfriend had some scary
>> >>>>>>>> moments driving a rental car in Ireland.
>> >>>>>>> And not even a stick-shift? What an ill-prepared, American driver!
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> After Brexit, I ironically expected "Gaelic, Estonian, and Hungarian" to
>> >>>>>>> become the EU's exclusive official languages, to "further strengthen
>> >>>>>>> cohesion." Now, I'm more serious than ever about it -- because I would
>> >>>>>>> not have to bear hearing vonderLeyen speak, but only her interpreters.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Seriously, I am quite surprised that Germany would remain in an EU that is anything other than military cooperation should that ever become necessary. I think that the Russian invasion of the Ukraine has shown that will probably never become even a viable option for the Russians. Against even the Germans, Russia would not become helpless unless it was Germany invading Russia where every Russian then becomes a defender. Clearly offense is much harder than defense so Germany who have learned a very hard lesson could stop anything short of a nuclear exchange with ease.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> They took a miserable 2d Place to the Red Army last time.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Too many factors to call it either way.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Has anyone conquered Russia? Well, in the 600 years or so?
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Besides the Bolsheviks? Not yet.
>> >> I was going to ask, "But is a civil war being conquered" but then I
>> >> remember when I live in Georgia and Alabama
>> >> (Save your Confederate money. the South will rise again)
>> >> (:-)
>> >> --
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> John B.
>> >
>> > Concerning your comment above. I recall hearing a story about George Patton. And him saying the USA had never been defeated in a war. The person writing the story brought up the fact Patton's grandfather served in the Confederacy during the Civil War. And the south did lose the Civil War. So either Patton did not know his own family history. Not credible. Since his father and grandfather and he himself all went to Virginia Military Institute. Or Patton used very selective memory, like our Tommy boy, to wipe away the fact his own grandpa fought on the losing side of the Civil War. Now I realize George Patton was born twenty years after the Civil War ended, 1885, so he himself had no direct connection to the Civil War. So its possible in his mind he did not think of the Civil War as a real war since no foreign power was involved. So his grandpa and his dad being on the Confederate side was not really a loss. And the USA, his country, won.
>> >
>> ??
>> The defeat of CSA relates in what way to 'USA had never been
>> defeated in a war' ?
>>
>> You might have just as well asked the same question
>> regarding Shay's Rebellion or Philadelphia MOVE or Weather
>> Underground...
>>
>> A better case might have been made about burning the White
>> House and sacking DC in 1814 although 'defeat' is a stronger
>> word than 'chastisement'.
>
>In order to be defeated in a war first you have to be in a declared war. After WW II what wars were declared? Certainly none of the middle eastern wars. Korea WAS NOT a declared war despite a favorable outcome. The last time that Congress declare war was in 1942. But I'm sure that the Google Genius John will discover differently.

Tommy you "know" a tremendous number of things that just aren't true,
but to give credit where credit is due, Yes the U.S. did formally
declared war on June 5, 1942 ... against Hungary, Bulgaria and
Romania.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 17 May 2022 06:05:39 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Example, you might be interested to know
>that one grouping of Muslims believe that the proper way to pray is to
>kneels down and literally bang your head on the ground/floor. to the
>extent this group can be identified by the scar or bruise on their
>forehead.

Prayer mark, bump, or callus:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_callus>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 16 May 2022 19:19:11 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/16/2022 6:05 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 11:16:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/15/2022 11:15 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 22:49:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/15/2022 8:10 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 07:04:30 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Every religion was invented. Further, everyone invents their own version.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, which is the problem in discussing religion. Everybody "knows"
>>>>>> that he/she/it is Right! and if you disagree you are Wrong!
>>>>>
>>>>> That "everybody" should not be so absolute. One can have a very
>>>>> intelligent and enlightening conversation with an expert on comparative
>>>>> religion.
>>>>
>>>> Of course you can have a discussion but do you change his.her/it's
>>>> beliefs? I've had discussion about the Shintoism ( Japanese
>>>> traditional religion), Buddhism, Muslim and even Christianity, in
>>>> various forms. I can't say that I ever changed anyone's beliefs, nor
>>>> had mine changed.
>>>
>>> In my discussions, I wasn't trying to change his or anyone else's
>>> beliefs, and neither was he. But he was remarkably tolerant of others'
>>> beliefs, pretty much the polar opposite of "I'm right and anyone else is
>>> wrong."
>>>
>>> My point here is that at least some people can discuss religion
>>> intelligently. They can go far, far beyond simple proselytizing.
>>
>> Yes, I can see how "religion" can be discussed, in the abstract, which
>> is, in effect, meaningless. Example, you might be interested to know
>> that one grouping of Muslims believe that the proper way to pray is to
>> kneels down and literally bang your head on the ground/floor. to the
>> extent this group can be identified by the scar or bruise on their
>> forehead.
>>
>> Will this knowledge effect the way that you pray, or your opinion in
>> the best way to pray? Probably not. Will it effect the way that "they"
>> pray, again probably not. It is simply meaningless information about a
>> "strange" group of people.
>>
>
>Never better phrased than by Jonathan Swift:
>
> It is allowed on all hands, that the primitive way of
>breaking eggs before we eat them, was upon the larger end:
>but his present Majesty's grandfather, while he was a boy,
>going to eat an egg, and breaking it according to the
>ancient practice, happened to cut one of his fingers.
>Whereupon the Emperor his father published an edict,
>commanding all his subjects, upon great penalties, to break
>the smaller end of their eggs.
>
> The people so highly resented this law, that our
>Histories tell us there have been six rebellions raised on
>that account, wherein one Emperor lost his life, and another
>his crown. These civil commotions were constantly formented
>by the monarchs of Blefuscu, and when they were quelled, the
>exiles always fled for refuge to that Empire.
>
> It is computed, that eleven thousand persons have, at
>several times, suffered death, rather than submit to break
>their eggs at the smaller end. Many hundred large volums
>have been published upon this controversy: but the books of
>the Big-Endians have been long forbidden, and the whole
>party rendered incapable by law of holding employments.
>
> During the course of these troubles, the emperors of
>Blefuscu did frequently expostulate by their ambassadors,
>accusing us of making a schism in religion, by offending
>against a fundamental doctrine of our great prophet Lustrog,
>in the fifty-fourth chapter of the Brundecral (which is
>their Alcoran). This, however, is thought to be a mere
>strain upon the text: for their words are these; That all
>true believers shall break their eggs at the convenient end:
>and which is the convenient end, seems, in my humble
>opinion, to be left to every man's conscience, or at least
>in the power of the chief magistrate to determine.
>
>from Gulliver's Travels

Exactly!
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 16 May 2022 13:06:01 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 15 May 2022 22:20:48 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 16 May 2022 09:50:23 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>And even more illogical the three Abrahamic religions merrily
>>>slaughter each other, "in the name of God".
>>
>>Yes, but each religion pronounces and spells their names differently.
>>If only they would agree on a common name, maybe there would be fewer
>>wars over such trivial issues.
>>
>>Well, maybe 3 names isn't so bad:
>>
>>"Over 100 Biblical Names Of God"
>><https://urbanareas.net/info/100-biblical-names-god/>
>>
>>"The Nine Billion Names of God"
>><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God>
>>
>>Hmmmm, the moon seems to be getting dimmer or turning off.

>Perhaps, but I doubt it.

Argh. You missed my joke. There was a lunar eclipse on Sunday
evening and the last few lines from the story ended with:
<https://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/the-nine-billion-names-of-god/>
"Presently, George glanced at his watch: "Should be there in an hour,"
he called back over his shoulder to Chuck. Then he added, in an
afterthought: "Wonder if the computer’s finished its run. It was due
about now." Chuck didn’t reply, so George swung round in his saddle.
He could just see Chuck’s face, a white oval turned toward the sky.
"Look," whispered Chuck, and George lifted his eyes to heaven . . .
Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out."

>Take one "branch". The Christians, for
>example.
>During The Thirty Years' War, basically a war between "Catholic" and
>"Protestant" mobs. It is estimated that some 4.5 to 8 million died
>and some regions, largely in Germany, lost more then 50% of the
>inhabitants.
>
>The northern colonies in "America" were largely settled by
>"Christians" who disagreed with the "Christians" in England.
>
>But, not to be left out, the Muslims have had their differences,
>although they were, originally, largely a matter of politics.

May I suggest a different view of how it works. The feudal system
effectively locked up ownership of everything. The only effective way
for a land baron to expand his fortune was to take it from a
neighboring land baron. It's axiomatic that starting a war requires a
good excuse and religion was generally good enough.

Another good excuse was to keep the mercenary armies busy. In 1095
Pope Urban II had a problem. He was deep in debt to money lenders and
mercenaries for previous marginally successful military adventures.
His mercenary army wanted to be paid and was threatening to pillage
his lands unless payment was forthcoming. His solution was to start
the first Crusade and send them to holy land to do some looting. The
eastern treasures and whatever they could loot along the roads seemed
to be better than what was available in Europe. So, off they went on
a religious crusade. The crusade worked well enough at getting the
mercenaries out of Europe that it was repeated three times.

Just follow the money and religion will not be far behind.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 15 May 2022 18:19:35 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
<ralph@invalid.com> wrote:

> I avoided cycling in Scotland and London for the brief time I was there for
> the same reason. You can logically figure out what to do, but all your
> instincts are completely wrong.

I was more of a hazard on foot than on a bike -- I would look a driver
right in the eye, and then step in front of him.

I didn't *think* that a driver coming from that direction had to be on
the other side of the road, I just acted on information that never
came to the surface of my mind.

Perhaps it was because I remember learning how to ride a bike, but few
of the rules for walking are in words.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 7:05:47 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2022 11:16:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> One can have a very
> >>> intelligent and enlightening conversation with an expert on comparative
> >>> religion.
> >>
> >> Of course you can have a discussion but do you change his.her/it's
> >> beliefs? I've had discussion about the Shintoism ( Japanese
> >> traditional religion), Buddhism, Muslim and even Christianity, in
> >> various forms. I can't say that I ever changed anyone's beliefs, nor
> >> had mine changed.
> >
> >In my discussions, I wasn't trying to change his or anyone else's
> >beliefs, and neither was he. But he was remarkably tolerant of others'
> >beliefs, pretty much the polar opposite of "I'm right and anyone else is
> >wrong."
> >
> >My point here is that at least some people can discuss religion
> >intelligently. They can go far, far beyond simple proselytizing.
> Yes, I can see how "religion" can be discussed, in the abstract, which
> is, in effect, meaningless. Example, you might be interested to know
> that one grouping of Muslims believe that the proper way to pray is to
> kneels down and literally bang your head on the ground/floor. to the
> extent this group can be identified by the scar or bruise on their
> forehead.
>
> Will this knowledge effect the way that you pray, or your opinion in
> the best way to pray? Probably not.

If those in the discussion are sufficiently intelligent and wise, I think religion can be
discussed quite beneficially. Such a discussion wouldn't focus on details like posture
in prayer. I'd say those details are minor and unimportant.

I'll admit, someone not very intelligent or wise might think those details are critically important.
But then, he wouldn't meet the qualifications for a beneficial conversation.

- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 16 May 2022 20:26:10 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 7:05:47 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 11:16:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> One can have a very
>> >>> intelligent and enlightening conversation with an expert on comparative
>> >>> religion.
>> >>
>> >> Of course you can have a discussion but do you change his.her/it's
>> >> beliefs? I've had discussion about the Shintoism ( Japanese
>> >> traditional religion), Buddhism, Muslim and even Christianity, in
>> >> various forms. I can't say that I ever changed anyone's beliefs, nor
>> >> had mine changed.
>> >
>> >In my discussions, I wasn't trying to change his or anyone else's
>> >beliefs, and neither was he. But he was remarkably tolerant of others'
>> >beliefs, pretty much the polar opposite of "I'm right and anyone else is
>> >wrong."
>> >
>> >My point here is that at least some people can discuss religion
>> >intelligently. They can go far, far beyond simple proselytizing.
>> Yes, I can see how "religion" can be discussed, in the abstract, which
>> is, in effect, meaningless. Example, you might be interested to know
>> that one grouping of Muslims believe that the proper way to pray is to
>> kneels down and literally bang your head on the ground/floor. to the
>> extent this group can be identified by the scar or bruise on their
>> forehead.
>>
>> Will this knowledge effect the way that you pray, or your opinion in
>> the best way to pray? Probably not.
>
>If those in the discussion are sufficiently intelligent and wise, I think religion can be
>discussed quite beneficially. Such a discussion wouldn't focus on details like posture
>in prayer. I'd say those details are minor and unimportant.
>
>I'll admit, someone not very intelligent or wise might think those details are critically important.
>But then, he wouldn't meet the qualifications for a beneficial conversation.
>
>- Frank Krygowski

Well, the premise in all religions is, "Mine is Right".
It has to be else it wouldn't be a religion.
And thus my way to pray is correct, and my attitude to strong drink,
and women, and, and, and, must be correct as my God told me so.
So, logically, your religion must false.

But, being a cheerful and knowledgeable sort of chap I am prepared to
discuss the matter with you and (If God is Good) convert you to the
true religion, which, of course is what I practice, and the only true
belief.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 16 May 2022 19:36:52 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 16 May 2022 13:06:01 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 15 May 2022 22:20:48 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 16 May 2022 09:50:23 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>And even more illogical the three Abrahamic religions merrily
>>>>slaughter each other, "in the name of God".
>>>
>>>Yes, but each religion pronounces and spells their names differently.
>>>If only they would agree on a common name, maybe there would be fewer
>>>wars over such trivial issues.
>>>
>>>Well, maybe 3 names isn't so bad:
>>>
>>>"Over 100 Biblical Names Of God"
>>><https://urbanareas.net/info/100-biblical-names-god/>
>>>
>>>"The Nine Billion Names of God"
>>><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God>
>>>
>>>Hmmmm, the moon seems to be getting dimmer or turning off.
>
>>Perhaps, but I doubt it.
>
>Argh. You missed my joke. There was a lunar eclipse on Sunday
>evening and the last few lines from the story ended with:
><https://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/the-nine-billion-names-of-god/>
>"Presently, George glanced at his watch: "Should be there in an hour,"
>he called back over his shoulder to Chuck. Then he added, in an
>afterthought: "Wonder if the computer’s finished its run. It was due
>about now." Chuck didn’t reply, so George swung round in his saddle.
>He could just see Chuck’s face, a white oval turned toward the sky.
>"Look," whispered Chuck, and George lifted his eyes to heaven . . .
>Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out."
>
>>Take one "branch". The Christians, for
>>example.
>>During The Thirty Years' War, basically a war between "Catholic" and
>>"Protestant" mobs. It is estimated that some 4.5 to 8 million died
>>and some regions, largely in Germany, lost more then 50% of the
>>inhabitants.
>>
>>The northern colonies in "America" were largely settled by
>>"Christians" who disagreed with the "Christians" in England.
>>
>>But, not to be left out, the Muslims have had their differences,
>>although they were, originally, largely a matter of politics.
>
>May I suggest a different view of how it works. The feudal system
>effectively locked up ownership of everything. The only effective way
>for a land baron to expand his fortune was to take it from a
>neighboring land baron. It's axiomatic that starting a war requires a
>good excuse and religion was generally good enough.

Well, you are not wrong but neither are you I believe (wholly) right
(how do you like that argument) When Henry VIII "nationalized" the
Church the usual explanation is to allow him to divorce a wife, which
the Pope had denied him. i.e., a purely religious matter. I am
inclined to believe that, perhaps a more pressing reason was because
at the time the Church "owned" or controlled abut 1/4 of all the
cultivated land in the country... and paid no taxes to the King.

The First Crusade was partially in response to Byzantine requesting
military assistance against the Turks, but the actual pilgrimage, led
by Peter the Hermit, was, apparently, a purely religious matter.

The Muslim Sunni-Shia divide was largely political in deciding who
would be Caliph upon the death of The Prophet Muhammad

>Another good excuse was to keep the mercenary armies busy. In 1095
>Pope Urban II had a problem. He was deep in debt to money lenders and
>mercenaries for previous marginally successful military adventures.

Do you have a reference for the Pope leading, or having an army? I've
read reference to letters written by the Pope urging the Catalonian
lords to continue the fight against the Moors, assuring them that
doing so would offer the same divine rewards as a conflict against the
Seljuks, but nothing about his having an army. Although he certainly
was having problems with the antipope "Clement III"

>His mercenary army wanted to be paid and was threatening to pillage
>his lands unless payment was forthcoming. His solution was to start
>the first Crusade and send them to holy land to do some looting. The
>eastern treasures and whatever they could loot along the roads seemed
>to be better than what was available in Europe. So, off they went on
>a religious crusade. The crusade worked well enough at getting the
>mercenaries out of Europe that it was repeated three times.
>

Err... you mean the King of England and France were mercenaries? 3rd
Crusade (:-)

>Just follow the money and religion will not be far behind.

I suspect it is, to some extent a matter of the "chicken or the egg"
certainly politics can be the fundamental cause but I suspect that
equally religion or money can be a cause.

We have had quite a number of political riots, or demonstrations over
the years and while certainly they were led or instigated by
politicians I have talked to some of the actual rioters, the troops on
the street, and a large number of them are true believers.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 9:23:23 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/15/2022 10:43 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:54:35 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> On Sun, 15 May 2022 19:01:20 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 5/15/2022 6:17 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 11:01:24 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 5/15/2022 10:49 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 8:37:15 AM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> >>>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 5/14/2022 8:28 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> A friend's daughter is working in Ireland right now. I
> >>>>>>>>> bet Ireland would be a nice place to ride a bike. Except they
> >>>>>>>>> drive/ride on the wrong side of the road. On my three bike rides
> >>>>>>>>> in Europe, I was very glad they drove/rode on the right side of the
> >>>>>>>>> road.
> >>>>>>> Another indication that russ...'s mental operating capacity must be
> >>>>>>> rather limited.
> >>>>>>>> +1 Between left side and signage in Gaelic, girlfriend had some scary
> >>>>>>>> moments driving a rental car in Ireland.
> >>>>>>> And not even a stick-shift? What an ill-prepared, American driver!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> After Brexit, I ironically expected "Gaelic, Estonian, and Hungarian" to
> >>>>>>> become the EU's exclusive official languages, to "further strengthen
> >>>>>>> cohesion." Now, I'm more serious than ever about it -- because I would
> >>>>>>> not have to bear hearing vonderLeyen speak, but only her interpreters.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Seriously, I am quite surprised that Germany would remain in an EU that is anything other than military cooperation should that ever become necessary. I think that the Russian invasion of the Ukraine has shown that will probably never become even a viable option for the Russians. Against even the Germans, Russia would not become helpless unless it was Germany invading Russia where every Russian then becomes a defender. Clearly offense is much harder than defense so Germany who have learned a very hard lesson could stop anything short of a nuclear exchange with ease.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> They took a miserable 2d Place to the Red Army last time.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Too many factors to call it either way.
> >>>>
> >>>> Has anyone conquered Russia? Well, in the 600 years or so?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Besides the Bolsheviks? Not yet.
> >> I was going to ask, "But is a civil war being conquered" but then I
> >> remember when I live in Georgia and Alabama
> >> (Save your Confederate money. the South will rise again)
> >> (:-)
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> >
> > Concerning your comment above. I recall hearing a story about George Patton. And him saying the USA had never been defeated in a war. The person writing the story brought up the fact Patton's grandfather served in the Confederacy during the Civil War. And the south did lose the Civil War. So either Patton did not know his own family history. Not credible. Since his father and grandfather and he himself all went to Virginia Military Institute. Or Patton used very selective memory, like our Tommy boy, to wipe away the fact his own grandpa fought on the losing side of the Civil War. Now I realize George Patton was born twenty years after the Civil War ended, 1885, so he himself had no direct connection to the Civil War. So its possible in his mind he did not think of the Civil War as a real war since no foreign power was involved. So his grandpa and his dad being on the Confederate side was not really a loss. And the USA, his country, won.
> >
> ??
> The defeat of CSA relates in what way to 'USA had never been
> defeated in a war' ?
>
> You might have just as well asked the same question
> regarding Shay's Rebellion or Philadelphia MOVE or Weather
> Underground...
>
> A better case might have been made about burning the White
> House and sacking DC in 1814 although 'defeat' is a stronger
> word than 'chastisement'.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Because it was George Patton saying it. George Patton whose grandpa lost in the Civil War. How can someone on the losing side say they won? Oh right, Trump.

On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 9:50:03 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> In order to be defeated in a war first you have to be in a declared war. After WW II what wars were declared? Certainly none of the middle eastern wars. Korea WAS NOT a declared war despite a favorable outcome. The last time that Congress declare war was in 1942. But I'm sure that the Google Genius John will discover differently.

I am not John, but... Tommy, you really got to go back to school and get an education or learn something. The US Congress declared war on Japan on December 8, 1941. The day after the attack on Pearl Harbor. The US did not wait another three plus weeks to declare war on an aggressor who bombed us.. US declared war on Germany and Italy on December 11, 1941. After Germany declared war on the US after the Japan war declaration. Your stupidity knows no bounds Tommy.

On 5/16/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2022 09:23:12 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 5/15/2022 10:43 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:54:35 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 19:01:20 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/15/2022 6:17 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 11:01:24 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/15/2022 10:49 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 8:37:15 AM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>>>>>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2022 8:28 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A friend's daughter is working in Ireland right now. I
>>>>>>>>>>> bet Ireland would be a nice place to ride a bike. Except they
>>>>>>>>>>> drive/ride on the wrong side of the road. On my three bike rides
>>>>>>>>>>> in Europe, I was very glad they drove/rode on the right side of the
>>>>>>>>>>> road.
>>>>>>>>> Another indication that russ...'s mental operating capacity must be
>>>>>>>>> rather limited.
>>>>>>>>>> +1 Between left side and signage in Gaelic, girlfriend had some scary
>>>>>>>>>> moments driving a rental car in Ireland.
>>>>>>>>> And not even a stick-shift? What an ill-prepared, American driver!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> After Brexit, I ironically expected "Gaelic, Estonian, and Hungarian" to
>>>>>>>>> become the EU's exclusive official languages, to "further strengthen
>>>>>>>>> cohesion." Now, I'm more serious than ever about it -- because I would
>>>>>>>>> not have to bear hearing vonderLeyen speak, but only her interpreters.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Seriously, I am quite surprised that Germany would remain in an EU that is anything other than military cooperation should that ever become necessary. I think that the Russian invasion of the Ukraine has shown that will probably never become even a viable option for the Russians. Against even the Germans, Russia would not become helpless unless it was Germany invading Russia where every Russian then becomes a defender. Clearly offense is much harder than defense so Germany who have learned a very hard lesson could stop anything short of a nuclear exchange with ease.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They took a miserable 2d Place to the Red Army last time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Too many factors to call it either way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Has anyone conquered Russia? Well, in the 600 years or so?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Besides the Bolsheviks? Not yet.
>>>> I was going to ask, "But is a civil war being conquered" but then I
>>>> remember when I live in Georgia and Alabama
>>>> (Save your Confederate money. the South will rise again)
>>>> (:-)
>>>> --
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> John B.
>>>
>>> Concerning your comment above. I recall hearing a story about George Patton. And him saying the USA had never been defeated in a war. The person writing the story brought up the fact Patton's grandfather served in the Confederacy during the Civil War. And the south did lose the Civil War. So either Patton did not know his own family history. Not credible. Since his father and grandfather and he himself all went to Virginia Military Institute. Or Patton used very selective memory, like our Tommy boy, to wipe away the fact his own grandpa fought on the losing side of the Civil War. Now I realize George Patton was born twenty years after the Civil War ended, 1885, so he himself had no direct connection to the Civil War. So its possible in his mind he did not think of the Civil War as a real war since no foreign power was involved. So his grandpa and his dad being on the Confederate side was not really a loss. And the USA, his country, won.
>>>
>>
>> ??
>> The defeat of CSA relates in what way to 'USA had never been
>> defeated in a war' ?
>>
>> You might have just as well asked the same question
>> regarding Shay's Rebellion or Philadelphia MOVE or Weather
>> Underground...
>>
>> A better case might have been made about burning the White
>> House and sacking DC in 1814 although 'defeat' is a stronger
>> word than 'chastisement'.
>
> Well... The war of 1812 started with the US declaring war on 18 June
> 1812 and ending with negotiations (at Ghent), so no "defeat" there.
>

Not all that clear.
Mostly The Crown was otherwise engaged[1] and the conflict
was ill-considered at best.

[1]https://www.britannica.com/event/Battle-of-Waterloo
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/16/2022 11:46 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2022 19:36:52 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 13:06:01 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 22:20:48 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 09:50:23 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And even more illogical the three Abrahamic religions merrily
>>>>> slaughter each other, "in the name of God".
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but each religion pronounces and spells their names differently.
>>>> If only they would agree on a common name, maybe there would be fewer
>>>> wars over such trivial issues.
>>>>
>>>> Well, maybe 3 names isn't so bad:
>>>>
>>>> "Over 100 Biblical Names Of God"
>>>> <https://urbanareas.net/info/100-biblical-names-god/>
>>>>
>>>> "The Nine Billion Names of God"
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God>
>>>>
>>>> Hmmmm, the moon seems to be getting dimmer or turning off.
>>
>>> Perhaps, but I doubt it.
>>
>> Argh. You missed my joke. There was a lunar eclipse on Sunday
>> evening and the last few lines from the story ended with:
>> <https://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/the-nine-billion-names-of-god/>
>> "Presently, George glanced at his watch: "Should be there in an hour,"
>> he called back over his shoulder to Chuck. Then he added, in an
>> afterthought: "Wonder if the computer’s finished its run. It was due
>> about now." Chuck didn’t reply, so George swung round in his saddle.
>> He could just see Chuck’s face, a white oval turned toward the sky.
>> "Look," whispered Chuck, and George lifted his eyes to heaven . . .
>> Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out."
>>
>>> Take one "branch". The Christians, for
>>> example.
>>> During The Thirty Years' War, basically a war between "Catholic" and
>>> "Protestant" mobs. It is estimated that some 4.5 to 8 million died
>>> and some regions, largely in Germany, lost more then 50% of the
>>> inhabitants.
>>>
>>> The northern colonies in "America" were largely settled by
>>> "Christians" who disagreed with the "Christians" in England.
>>>
>>> But, not to be left out, the Muslims have had their differences,
>>> although they were, originally, largely a matter of politics.
>>
>> May I suggest a different view of how it works. The feudal system
>> effectively locked up ownership of everything. The only effective way
>> for a land baron to expand his fortune was to take it from a
>> neighboring land baron. It's axiomatic that starting a war requires a
>> good excuse and religion was generally good enough.
>
> Well, you are not wrong but neither are you I believe (wholly) right
> (how do you like that argument) When Henry VIII "nationalized" the
> Church the usual explanation is to allow him to divorce a wife, which
> the Pope had denied him. i.e., a purely religious matter. I am
> inclined to believe that, perhaps a more pressing reason was because
> at the time the Church "owned" or controlled abut 1/4 of all the
> cultivated land in the country... and paid no taxes to the King.
>
> The First Crusade was partially in response to Byzantine requesting
> military assistance against the Turks, but the actual pilgrimage, led
> by Peter the Hermit, was, apparently, a purely religious matter.
>
> The Muslim Sunni-Shia divide was largely political in deciding who
> would be Caliph upon the death of The Prophet Muhammad
>
>> Another good excuse was to keep the mercenary armies busy. In 1095
>> Pope Urban II had a problem. He was deep in debt to money lenders and
>> mercenaries for previous marginally successful military adventures.
>
> Do you have a reference for the Pope leading, or having an army? I've
> read reference to letters written by the Pope urging the Catalonian
> lords to continue the fight against the Moors, assuring them that
> doing so would offer the same divine rewards as a conflict against the
> Seljuks, but nothing about his having an army. Although he certainly
> was having problems with the antipope "Clement III"
>
>> His mercenary army wanted to be paid and was threatening to pillage
>> his lands unless payment was forthcoming. His solution was to start
>> the first Crusade and send them to holy land to do some looting. The
>> eastern treasures and whatever they could loot along the roads seemed
>> to be better than what was available in Europe. So, off they went on
>> a religious crusade. The crusade worked well enough at getting the
>> mercenaries out of Europe that it was repeated three times.
>>
>
> Err... you mean the King of England and France were mercenaries? 3rd
> Crusade (:-)
>
>> Just follow the money and religion will not be far behind.
>
> I suspect it is, to some extent a matter of the "chicken or the egg"
> certainly politics can be the fundamental cause but I suspect that
> equally religion or money can be a cause.
>
> We have had quite a number of political riots, or demonstrations over
> the years and while certainly they were led or instigated by
> politicians I have talked to some of the actual rioters, the troops on
> the street, and a large number of them are true believers.
>

The Popes encouraging expeditions to protect pilgrims in
Jerusalem were somewhere around 1000~1200. The more
developed power structure of 1500~1600 or so was very
different and various Popes fielded their own armies,
overall fairly successfully.

It was Mussolini who crafted the Lateran Treaty after which
the Papacy controlled only the Vatican.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/17/2022 12:01 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 9:23:23 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/15/2022 10:43 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:54:35 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 19:01:20 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/15/2022 6:17 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 11:01:24 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/15/2022 10:49 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 8:37:15 AM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>>>>>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2022 8:28 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A friend's daughter is working in Ireland right now. I
>>>>>>>>>>> bet Ireland would be a nice place to ride a bike. Except they
>>>>>>>>>>> drive/ride on the wrong side of the road. On my three bike rides
>>>>>>>>>>> in Europe, I was very glad they drove/rode on the right side of the
>>>>>>>>>>> road.
>>>>>>>>> Another indication that russ...'s mental operating capacity must be
>>>>>>>>> rather limited.
>>>>>>>>>> +1 Between left side and signage in Gaelic, girlfriend had some scary
>>>>>>>>>> moments driving a rental car in Ireland.
>>>>>>>>> And not even a stick-shift? What an ill-prepared, American driver!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> After Brexit, I ironically expected "Gaelic, Estonian, and Hungarian" to
>>>>>>>>> become the EU's exclusive official languages, to "further strengthen
>>>>>>>>> cohesion." Now, I'm more serious than ever about it -- because I would
>>>>>>>>> not have to bear hearing vonderLeyen speak, but only her interpreters.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Seriously, I am quite surprised that Germany would remain in an EU that is anything other than military cooperation should that ever become necessary. I think that the Russian invasion of the Ukraine has shown that will probably never become even a viable option for the Russians. Against even the Germans, Russia would not become helpless unless it was Germany invading Russia where every Russian then becomes a defender. Clearly offense is much harder than defense so Germany who have learned a very hard lesson could stop anything short of a nuclear exchange with ease.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They took a miserable 2d Place to the Red Army last time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Too many factors to call it either way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Has anyone conquered Russia? Well, in the 600 years or so?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Besides the Bolsheviks? Not yet.
>>>> I was going to ask, "But is a civil war being conquered" but then I
>>>> remember when I live in Georgia and Alabama
>>>> (Save your Confederate money. the South will rise again)
>>>> (:-)
>>>> --
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> John B.
>>>
>>> Concerning your comment above. I recall hearing a story about George Patton. And him saying the USA had never been defeated in a war. The person writing the story brought up the fact Patton's grandfather served in the Confederacy during the Civil War. And the south did lose the Civil War. So either Patton did not know his own family history. Not credible. Since his father and grandfather and he himself all went to Virginia Military Institute. Or Patton used very selective memory, like our Tommy boy, to wipe away the fact his own grandpa fought on the losing side of the Civil War. Now I realize George Patton was born twenty years after the Civil War ended, 1885, so he himself had no direct connection to the Civil War. So its possible in his mind he did not think of the Civil War as a real war since no foreign power was involved. So his grandpa and his dad being on the Confederate side was not really a loss. And the USA, his country, won.
>>>
>> ??
>> The defeat of CSA relates in what way to 'USA had never been
>> defeated in a war' ?
>>
>> You might have just as well asked the same question
>> regarding Shay's Rebellion or Philadelphia MOVE or Weather
>> Underground...
>>
>> A better case might have been made about burning the White
>> House and sacking DC in 1814 although 'defeat' is a stronger
>> word than 'chastisement'.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Because it was George Patton saying it. George Patton whose grandpa lost in the Civil War. How can someone on the losing side say they won? Oh right, Trump.
>

That's sadly quite human and common:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUqxX0YAafg&feature=emb_imp_woyt

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> writes:

> On Sun, 15 May 2022 18:19:35 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> <ralph@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> I avoided cycling in Scotland and London for the brief time I was there for
>> the same reason. You can logically figure out what to do, but all your
>> instincts are completely wrong.
>
> I was more of a hazard on foot than on a bike -- I would look a driver
> right in the eye, and then step in front of him.
>
> I didn't *think* that a driver coming from that direction had to be on
> the other side of the road, I just acted on information that never
> came to the surface of my mind.
>
> Perhaps it was because I remember learning how to ride a bike, but few
> of the rules for walking are in words.

I remember a lot of words being used to instruct me in how to safely
cross a street. That was certainly not permitted until I could
converse.

Experience helps. Ever since having a car totaled by a guy driving the
wrong way down a one way street (his path was marevelously unobstructed
by traffic signs or lights), I really do look both ways.

Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
> Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 18:19:35 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
>> <ralph@invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I avoided cycling in Scotland and London for the brief time I was there for
>>> the same reason. You can logically figure out what to do, but all your
>>> instincts are completely wrong.
>>
>> I was more of a hazard on foot than on a bike -- I would look a driver
>> right in the eye, and then step in front of him.
>>
>> I didn't *think* that a driver coming from that direction had to be on
>> the other side of the road, I just acted on information that never
>> came to the surface of my mind.
>>
>> Perhaps it was because I remember learning how to ride a bike, but few
>> of the rules for walking are in words.
>
> I remember a lot of words being used to instruct me in how to safely
> cross a street. That was certainly not permitted until I could
> converse.
>
> Experience helps. Ever since having a car totaled by a guy driving the
> wrong way down a one way street (his path was marevelously unobstructed
> by traffic signs or lights), I really do look both ways.
>

I knew that driving, cycling and being a pedestrian around cars would be
problematic, but I had no idea that staircases would be so problematic.

On Tue, 17 May 2022 08:40:15 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/16/2022 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 09:23:12 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/15/2022 10:43 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:54:35 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 19:01:20 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/15/2022 6:17 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 11:01:24 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/15/2022 10:49 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 8:37:15 AM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2022 8:28 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> A friend's daughter is working in Ireland right now. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> bet Ireland would be a nice place to ride a bike. Except they
>>>>>>>>>>>> drive/ride on the wrong side of the road. On my three bike rides
>>>>>>>>>>>> in Europe, I was very glad they drove/rode on the right side of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> road.
>>>>>>>>>> Another indication that russ...'s mental operating capacity must be
>>>>>>>>>> rather limited.
>>>>>>>>>>> +1 Between left side and signage in Gaelic, girlfriend had some scary
>>>>>>>>>>> moments driving a rental car in Ireland.
>>>>>>>>>> And not even a stick-shift? What an ill-prepared, American driver!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> After Brexit, I ironically expected "Gaelic, Estonian, and Hungarian" to
>>>>>>>>>> become the EU's exclusive official languages, to "further strengthen
>>>>>>>>>> cohesion." Now, I'm more serious than ever about it -- because I would
>>>>>>>>>> not have to bear hearing vonderLeyen speak, but only her interpreters.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Seriously, I am quite surprised that Germany would remain in an EU that is anything other than military cooperation should that ever become necessary. I think that the Russian invasion of the Ukraine has shown that will probably never become even a viable option for the Russians. Against even the Germans, Russia would not become helpless unless it was Germany invading Russia where every Russian then becomes a defender. Clearly offense is much harder than defense so Germany who have learned a very hard lesson could stop anything short of a nuclear exchange with ease.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They took a miserable 2d Place to the Red Army last time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Too many factors to call it either way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Has anyone conquered Russia? Well, in the 600 years or so?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Besides the Bolsheviks? Not yet.
>>>>> I was going to ask, "But is a civil war being conquered" but then I
>>>>> remember when I live in Georgia and Alabama
>>>>> (Save your Confederate money. the South will rise again)
>>>>> (:-)
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>>
>>>> Concerning your comment above. I recall hearing a story about George Patton. And him saying the USA had never been defeated in a war. The person writing the story brought up the fact Patton's grandfather served in the Confederacy during the Civil War. And the south did lose the Civil War. So either Patton did not know his own family history. Not credible. Since his father and grandfather and he himself all went to Virginia Military Institute. Or Patton used very selective memory, like our Tommy boy, to wipe away the fact his own grandpa fought on the losing side of the Civil War. Now I realize George Patton was born twenty years after the Civil War ended, 1885, so he himself had no direct connection to the Civil War. So its possible in his mind he did not think of the Civil War as a real war since no foreign power was involved. So his grandpa and his dad being on the Confederate side was not really a loss. And the USA, his country, won.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ??
>>> The defeat of CSA relates in what way to 'USA had never been
>>> defeated in a war' ?
>>>
>>> You might have just as well asked the same question
>>> regarding Shay's Rebellion or Philadelphia MOVE or Weather
>>> Underground...
>>>
>>> A better case might have been made about burning the White
>>> House and sacking DC in 1814 although 'defeat' is a stronger
>>> word than 'chastisement'.
>>
>> Well... The war of 1812 started with the US declaring war on 18 June
>> 1812 and ending with negotiations (at Ghent), so no "defeat" there.
>>
>
>Not all that clear.
>Mostly The Crown was otherwise engaged[1] and the conflict
>was ill-considered at best.
>
>[1]https://www.britannica.com/event/Battle-of-Waterloo

But it does make the statement "never defeated" a true statement.
Although it may be simply a technicality.

--
Cheers,

John B.