Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 5/25/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/25/2023 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 5/25/2023 11:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes
>>>> with Dura Ace Ten?
>>>>
>>>> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
>>>>
>>>> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a
>>>> lot of advertising, no consumer interest
>>>
>>> If advertising does not work, why is _Bicycling_ magazine so
>>> full of advertising? Why does our local TV news feature so
>>> many expensive motor vehicle ads? How did Google become so
>>> profitable? (Google's revenue stream really is related to
>>> advertising.)
>>>
>>> Again, the high paid people running companies spend untold
>>> millions on advertising. All those dollars are voting
>>> against your one counterexample.
>>>
>>
>> Then again a certain Koren auto maker penetrated your brain...
>
> If you like, I can detail my decision making regarding the Kia.
>
> I used a simple chart (essentially a hand-drawn spreadsheet) listing
> range, price, inside dimensions, outside dimensions (our garage is not
> huge), plus a few other details such as the ability to mount bike racks.
> (Apparently the Nissan Leaf can't use anything but a hitch mounted bike
> rack.) At least one of the cars in that chart (Chevy Volt) were no
> longer available new, and if I'd decided on it I'd have shopped for a
> used one. And I did check Volt availability in the used car market.
>
> I compared cars from the used Volt or the Leaf at the low end, up to
> every model of Tesla at the high end. I'd narrowed it down to the Chevy
> Bolt or the Kia, which are quite close in specs. The Chevy salesman was
> bored and lackadaisical, didn't know the product, and wasted my time by
> saying two would arrive soon - then changing to "Oh, I guess we don't
> know when that first one's due. And the second one is still on the
> production line."
>
> The Kia salesman was very eager and quick to help, literally jogging
> away to check on availability, and hurried back to say "We can have one
> here in two days." The deciding factor was test-fitting our two folding
> bikes into the back along with two kids.
>
> I don't think ad-speak had any factor at all in my final decision. Oddly
> enough, Kia advertisements don't specify whether two folding bikes plus
> two kids and two adults will fit into a car.
>
Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
of them and all that.

No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don’t value
cars enough to spend that sort of money!

In short I want a big estate car that’s easy to drive that I can throw
bikes in the back plus assorted kit.

I also go to places and live in places that charging is a faff, so I need
ability to drive at motorway speeds for few hours without needing to charge
or then have to find some charger, in short I need a EV estate (proper ie
Volvo or similar) with estimated range 600/700 miles to make up for reduced
motorway range and pants chargers.

Roger Merriman

On 5/26/2023 8:30 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 May 2023 23:05:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/25/2023 5:04 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> When did I even SUGGEST that I thought that the newer components would
>>>> make me ride any better than my normal abilities?
>>>
>>> Tom, you've given us years of details on your churning of frames, bikes
>>> and components.
>>>
>>> If you're not trying to make your riding better, why in hell are you
>>> doing all the churning?
>>
>> Probably because he enjoys doing it.
>>
>
> And hell at least it’s cycling content! It’s not what I do it would be sad
> world if we all did the same!

I'd like to hear from Tom about his motivation. He mostly describes his
frustrations and confusions about installing parts, which doesn't make
the installation work sound pleasant to me. And he occasionally praises
a new-to-him bike as being just wonderful ... until it's he says its not
and he trades it for yet another.

If churning is a satisfying pastime, fine. But he never expresses much
satisfaction. It seems natural to wonder why he does it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 26 May 2023 11:47:38 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/26/2023 8:30 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 25 May 2023 23:05:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/25/2023 5:04 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> When did I even SUGGEST that I thought that the newer components would
>>>>> make me ride any better than my normal abilities?
>>>>
>>>> Tom, you've given us years of details on your churning of frames, bikes
>>>> and components.
>>>>
>>>> If you're not trying to make your riding better, why in hell are you
>>>> doing all the churning?
>>>
>>> Probably because he enjoys doing it.
>>>
>>
>> And hell at least it’s cycling content! It’s not what I do it would be sad
>> world if we all did the same!
>
>I'd like to hear from Tom about his motivation. He mostly describes his
>frustrations and confusions about installing parts, which doesn't make
>the installation work sound pleasant to me. And he occasionally praises
>a new-to-him bike as being just wonderful ... until it's he says its not
>and he trades it for yet another.
>
>If churning is a satisfying pastime, fine. But he never expresses much
>satisfaction. It seems natural to wonder why he does it.

....if you're nosy.....

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 3:57:12 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/25/2023 4:43 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 8:16:07 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 5/24/2023 8:49 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 24 May 2023 14:48:27 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>> On 5/23/2023 2:42 AM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>> On Tue, 23 May 2023 05:09:40 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOS...@gmail.org>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>> Huge snips
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Her point was that not all technology is beneficial to the things that
> >>>>> really matter in life. She mentioned some religious groups (not just
> >>>>> Amish) that put thought into which technologies are beneficial and which
> >>>>> are detrimental.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's not that they reject all technology. Instead, they attempt to
> >>>>> examine benefits vs. detriments and make rational decisions.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The alternative is to slavishly jump on every new technology, based on
> >>>>> the latest fashion trends, or based on the glowing testimonials of
> >>>>> advertisers and reviews in magazines paid to carry the advertisements.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Twitter. TikTok. Snapchat. Disc brakes. Carbon fiber. Yet another rear
> >>>>> cog. Radar taillights. Foam hats. Whatever.
> >>>>>
> >>>> No one is, I’ve never had a Carbon Fibre bike nor realistically likely to,
> >>>> disks well as others I’ve always wanted better brakes both MTBing and on
> >>>> road.
> >>>>
> >>>> Less chain rings does seem to be less faff which more cogs at back allows
> >>>> plus bigger range and so on, but again I’m on 10s and not alone in this.
> >>>>
> >>>> Radar lights, does seem to work well ie warns of cars approaching very
> >>>> fast, but while cool technology I have no use for it. My road riding is
> >>>> often on roads I like which tends to be quieter roads, that’s the advantage
> >>>> of the Gravel bike you can pick and choose.
> >>>>
> >>>> Helmets it’s part of the uniform as you where, but I’m not bothered by them
> >>>> either way, I’m aware that their protection is limited but certainly the
> >>>> MTB ie peaked one’s are useful in other ways.
> >>>>
> >>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> But does the world "slavishly jump on every new technology" as our
> >>> resident "expert" has it, or do people decide for themselves what will
> >>> benefit them.
> >>>
> >>> There are innumerable examples of "innovations" that greatly benefit
> >>> one individual or group of individuals, which they "jump on", but
> >>> which another group might well demonize as "just a fad".
> >>>
> >>> I remember my maternal grandmother nagging her youngest daughter about
> >>> buying a NEW, MODERN, gas cooking stove as her (Granny's) wood cooking
> >>> stove was far more efficient then the new, modern, gas stove that
> >>> the daughter had just bought. You see, she argued, "the wood stove
> >>> keeps the kitchen warm and you can cook on it while your gas stove is
> >>> only good for cooking".
> >>>
> >>> Or the microwave oven. Or an electric can opener. Or even all those
> >>> gears for bicycles ( after all, the first guy to ride across the U.S.
> >>> did it on a single speed bicycle :-)
> >>>
> >> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes with
> >> Dura Ace Ten?
> >>
> >> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
> >>
> >> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a lot
> >> of advertising, no consumer interest
> > I don't think that advertisements for bicycle components fall on deaf ears but the more expensive groups used to be bought by experienced cyclists rather than Jr. Pro wannabes. They tended to make their own minds up. With the rapid increase in cycling I think that newbees tended to go with rumors instead of experience. Franks pretense that electronic groups are bad is strictly an uneducated opinion. Once set up they STAY setup. They shift easier and better than manual groups and once installed can stay with only normal maintenance items like chains and cogs. Electronic groups performance-wise are head and shoulders above manual groups. You don't get what I got today - the front derailleur refusing to change rings unless you had the rear cog in the exact correct cog. After a shower I will have to readjust that.
> >
> > I don't want to plug in my bicycle but that is a strictly personal desire. Lou is happy with his Di2 and I certainly understand why. I did 2000 ft of climbing and 38 miles largely in the small ring because a lot of my courses are too steep for me to climb in the large ring unless I'm cross-chained. I don't think that this is going to change so what I have now is what I shall remain with. I intend to sell the Trek Alpha and the Cannondale Optimum gravel bike and retain the 5 steel bikes. with the other two gone I will have plenty of room for all of the steel bikes.
> >
> I disagree. Confirm with your LBS but in my experience top
> level equipment would never have enough volume to be viable
> without attorneys, doctors and dope dealers.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Then why are ALL of the major manufacturers going to only electric even down to their midrange groups? If you can only buy Dura Ace and Ultegra Di2 and you have a choice for 105 what has this to do with lawyers and dope dealers?

I have had 5 Di2 bikes and the shifting performance was FAR superior top manual even well adjusted. Perhaps this was the cause of the major change of the shifting mechanism of the 12 speed Campy - trying to compete against Di2 with a manual group.

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:21:45 AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Thu, 25 May 2023 23:05:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 5/25/2023 5:04 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> When did I even SUGGEST that I thought that the newer components would make me ride any better than my normal abilities?
> >
> >Tom, you've given us years of details on your churning of frames, bikes
> >and components.
> >
> >If you're not trying to make your riding better, why in hell are you
> >doing all the churning?
> Probably because he enjoys doing it.

Krygowski doesn't even understand the concept of looking for a better ride. He is stuck in the 19th century and doesn't even want to look any further. Again the title as one of the Stupid 4 is overly justified.

On 5/26/2023 10:47 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/26/2023 8:30 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 25 May 2023 23:05:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/25/2023 5:04 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> When did I even SUGGEST that I thought that the newer
>>>>> components would
>>>>> make me ride any better than my normal abilities?
>>>>
>>>> Tom, you've given us years of details on your churning
>>>> of frames, bikes
>>>> and components.
>>>>
>>>> If you're not trying to make your riding better, why in
>>>> hell are you
>>>> doing all the churning?
>>>
>>> Probably because he enjoys doing it.
>>>
>>
>> And hell at least it’s cycling content! It’s not what
>> I do it would be sad
>> world if we all did the same!
>
> I'd like to hear from Tom about his motivation. He mostly
> describes his frustrations and confusions about installing
> parts, which doesn't make the installation work sound
> pleasant to me. And he occasionally praises a new-to-him
> bike as being just wonderful ... until it's he says its not
> and he trades it for yet another.
>
> If churning is a satisfying pastime, fine. But he never
> expresses much satisfaction. It seems natural to wonder why
> he does it.
>

Perhaps (and likely) he just enjoys bicycles; riding, trying
out various frames and various equipment, and also
wrenching. Mr Kunich is not alone in any of that.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 5:31:33 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 3:03:24 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 9:51:17 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> But does the world "slavishly jump on every new technology" as our
> >>>> resident "expert" has it, or do people decide for themselves what will
> >>>> benefit them.
> >>>
> >>> People certainly decide what they THINK will benefit them. My point is that
> >>> many people make those decisions based on advertisements - and as I've
> >>> pointed out in other posts, by whatever is in fashion. And many of those
> >>> decisions are mistakes, such as wastes of money with no real benefits..
> >>>
> >>> I think we can contrast two posters to this group. One is a California guy who
> >>> is noted for very frequently churning his bike and equipment choices. What
> >>> do you suppose puts the ideas in his mind that each new bottom bracket,
> >>> handlebar, gear change system etc. will make him ride like he's 30, or 40 or 50?
> >>>
> >>> Let's contrast him with a poster living in Thailand. How often has that guy churned
> >>> through his equipment choices? How many surprisingly affordable Chinese aero
> >>> wheels has he bought? How many electronic shifters has he tried? Are his
> >>> latest handlebars less than a year old?
> >>>
> >>> Which of those guys would you say is paying more attention to advertising?
> >>> Which of those guys would you say is more sensible?
> >>>
> >>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>
> >> Tom while he does change his kit, isn’t really a exponent of technology
> >> he’s decidedly Luke warm on tubeless mind you road tubeless is marginal
> >> gains and all that personally I feel.
> >>
> >> For my Gravel bike it’s for the win, even if when it goes tends to go big.
> >> Hence I don’t trust it for the MTB, plus for that bike tubes just work.
> >>
> >> Also disks Tom isn’t keen at all, he also has steel bikes? Ie not Carbon.
> >>
> >> Your massively overstated the role of marketing, in terms of buying habits,
> >> to be honest I think your fixed in your ways, I’m not saying all new stuff
> >> is brilliant, because it isn’t but its worth being curious and interested
> >> in technology.
> >>
> >> Personally stuff I like GPS computers and connected features and
> >> navigation, though I have no desire to buy a new one just for free ride
> >> climb pro, say.
> >>
> >> I’ve been impressed with tubeless does have it niggles ie repairs in the
> >> field seem difficult what ever YouTube etc folks might say! But one the
> >> whole it’s good in the right use.
> >>
> >> Disks well it’s a mature decades old technology, though have been impressed
> >> by newer finned pads which keep the temperature impressively low and thus
> >> reduce fade!
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> > I find no gains marginal or otherwise if the rolling resistance of a tire
> > with a latex tube is the same as a tubeless tire. What's more - tubeless
> > tires are an absolute pain in the butt to get on the rims in sizes under
> > 26 mm. And you have to carry one of those tubeless repair kits with
> > "bacon" strips plus a tube if that is unsuccessful.
> The only time this happened wouldn’t seal with the strips and nor could I
> remove the valve so gave up at that point, luckily near a train station!
> >
> > Also normal rubber tubes only need to be pumped up every week or so while
> > the tubeless I've used need every day pumping.
> Not my experience they need to be pumped up in the first few weeks but
> after that, much like tubes as and when though I generally do check before
> I ride but I rarely ride it back to back days.
> >
> > I do not like disk brakes and I've owned MANY on and off-road versions.
> > While rim brakes are every bit as strong, in very wet weather you have to
> > ease the rim brakes on ahead of time to clear the rims of any water.
> > Balance this with the extreme power of hydraulic disks that can easily
> > lock - I have done this myself as well as in one of the recent stages of
> > the Giro the peloton when down and the water carriers coming up from
> > behind with PLENTY of room to stop locked the disks on wet roads and
> > either fell or in one case went over the handlebars.
> Off road it’s light and day, disks allow one to not be hauling on the bars.
>
> On a nice dry day on summer best bike? It’s marginal, this said bigger
> hills and so on a certainly easier with disks, plummeting down the mountain
> last week was much easier on the Gravel bike and it’s disks as you can
> brake late, lots of control which is handy threaded hairpin bends on way
> down for cake and coffee!
> >
> > Unlike Frank, I have been willing to at least give new technology a try
> > until I decide for myself if it is an improvement or nothing more than a
> > change. If you have a 29er with a long wheelbase and a lot of weight
> > disks are a good idea. But not on CX or gravel bikes because the
> > wheelbase is too short and the weight too light. V-brakes work better.,
> >
>
> Roger Merriman

Remember that this is a country with 10 to 20 million illegal aliens and another 20 million stacked at the border ready to entre when the Rio Grand River gets low enough. Since the Democrats are supporting these people EVEN TO THE POINT OF BUYING THEM NEW CARS from taxpayer money, broken glass is everywhere. I have two new cars belonging to my illegal next door neighbors parked in front of my house so that they can put their garbage cans out and to hell with mine. There are no cops to complain to - the state department doesn't care etc. I of needs must put up with this.

So I got a dozen unrepairable flats on my tubeless tires before I went back to tube tires. In my mind, all of the phony advertising concerning tubeless tires is proven to be just that with the Rolling Resistance tests. So now I can change a flat in 10 minutes instead of 40. And using just some normal tire irons rather than Tire Jacks which still make it extremely hard to install a Tubeless tire.

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 7:13:32 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/25/2023 8:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 5/25/2023 1:00 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >>
> >> So what? What and why other people other people buy is
> >> none of your
> >> business. Why are you always sticking your nose in other
> >> people's
> >> business?
> >
> > The gentleman from Florida doesn't seem to understand the
> > concept of a _discussion_ group.
> >
> > Can someone please try to make him understand what
> > "discussion" means?
> >
> > Use small words and short sentences.
> >
> Yes, everyone's opinions here have value, whether we agree
> or not (and sometimes moreso to establish counterarguments).
> Which is much preferred to a 'moderated group' which normal
> people call censorship.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

We are in agreement about censorship but that is precisely what Krygowski wants - his opinion and his opinion alone is the only things that count.

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 7:34:05 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 26.05.2023 um 16:11 schrieb AMuzi:
> > On 5/25/2023 8:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 5/25/2023 1:00 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >>>
> >>> So what? What and why other people other people buy is
> >>> none of your
> >>> business. Why are you always sticking your nose in other
> >>> people's
> >>> business?
> >>
> >> The gentleman from Florida doesn't seem to understand the
> >> concept of a _discussion_ group.
> >>
> >> Can someone please try to make him understand what
> >> "discussion" means?
> >>
> >> Use small words and short sentences.
> >
> > Yes, everyone's opinions here have value, whether we agree or not (and
> > sometimes moreso to establish counterarguments). Which is much preferred
> > to a 'moderated group' which normal people call censorship.
> I personally think that discussions have value but insults no not have
> any value. In an un-censored medium we must suffer insults but it
> greatly reduces the pleasure of reading.
>
> Please, just consider: if every name is anonymized by 'XXX', is it still
> worth reading what's left over from your argument?

When answering comments of censors, very often you have to call a spade a spade. But I will attempt to limit them in the future.

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 9:05:28 AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Fri, 26 May 2023 11:47:38 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 5/26/2023 8:30 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 25 May 2023 23:05:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 5/25/2023 5:04 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> When did I even SUGGEST that I thought that the newer components would
> >>>>> make me ride any better than my normal abilities?
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom, you've given us years of details on your churning of frames, bikes
> >>>> and components.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you're not trying to make your riding better, why in hell are you
> >>>> doing all the churning?
> >>>
> >>> Probably because he enjoys doing it.
> >>>
> >>
> >> And hell at least it’s cycling content! It’s not what I do it would be sad
> >> world if we all did the same!
> >
> >I'd like to hear from Tom about his motivation. He mostly describes his
> >frustrations and confusions about installing parts, which doesn't make
> >the installation work sound pleasant to me. And he occasionally praises
> >a new-to-him bike as being just wonderful ... until it's he says its not
> >and he trades it for yet another.
> >
> >If churning is a satisfying pastime, fine. But he never expresses much
> >satisfaction. It seems natural to wonder why he does it.
> ...if you're nosy.....

One would think that Krygowski would stop his krying when I haven't changed my bikes for over a year and the only installation problems I've had is with the newer cheaper 12 speed Campy group that sets up exactly opposite of what the manual says since they assume wheelbase to be like or nearly alike modern racing bikes with disk brakes.

This required some experimentation that surprisingly and contrary to the manual had to have a LONGER and not shorter chain length.

Frank has never set a Brifter group up but he is full of opinions when his own bikes use friction shifters.

On Fri, 26 May 2023 09:17:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:21:45?AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 May 2023 23:05:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 5/25/2023 5:04 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> When did I even SUGGEST that I thought that the newer components would make me ride any better than my normal abilities?
>> >
>> >Tom, you've given us years of details on your churning of frames, bikes
>> >and components.
>> >
>> >If you're not trying to make your riding better, why in hell are you
>> >doing all the churning?
>> Probably because he enjoys doing it.
>
>Krygowski doesn't even understand the concept of looking for a better ride. He is stuck in the 19th century and doesn't even want to look any further. Again the title as one of the Stupid 4 is overly justified.

Well, he's so vastly superior to all the rest of us, that the bike
isn't significant.

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 5:46:49 PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > On 5/25/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 5/25/2023 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 5/25/2023 11:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes
> >>>> with Dura Ace Ten?
> >>>>
> >>>> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
> >>>>
> >>>> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a
> >>>> lot of advertising, no consumer interest
> >>>
> >>> If advertising does not work, why is _Bicycling_ magazine so
> >>> full of advertising? Why does our local TV news feature so
> >>> many expensive motor vehicle ads? How did Google become so
> >>> profitable? (Google's revenue stream really is related to
> >>> advertising.)
> >>>
> >>> Again, the high paid people running companies spend untold
> >>> millions on advertising. All those dollars are voting
> >>> against your one counterexample.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Then again a certain Koren auto maker penetrated your brain...
> >
> > If you like, I can detail my decision making regarding the Kia.
> >
> > I used a simple chart (essentially a hand-drawn spreadsheet) listing
> > range, price, inside dimensions, outside dimensions (our garage is not
> > huge), plus a few other details such as the ability to mount bike racks..
> > (Apparently the Nissan Leaf can't use anything but a hitch mounted bike
> > rack.) At least one of the cars in that chart (Chevy Volt) were no
> > longer available new, and if I'd decided on it I'd have shopped for a
> > used one. And I did check Volt availability in the used car market.
> >
> > I compared cars from the used Volt or the Leaf at the low end, up to
> > every model of Tesla at the high end. I'd narrowed it down to the Chevy
> > Bolt or the Kia, which are quite close in specs. The Chevy salesman was
> > bored and lackadaisical, didn't know the product, and wasted my time by
> > saying two would arrive soon - then changing to "Oh, I guess we don't
> > know when that first one's due. And the second one is still on the
> > production line."
> >
> > The Kia salesman was very eager and quick to help, literally jogging
> > away to check on availability, and hurried back to say "We can have one
> > here in two days." The deciding factor was test-fitting our two folding
> > bikes into the back along with two kids.
> >
> > I don't think ad-speak had any factor at all in my final decision. Oddly
> > enough, Kia advertisements don't specify whether two folding bikes plus
> > two kids and two adults will fit into a car.
> >
> Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
> of them and all that.
>
> No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don’t value
> cars enough to spend that sort of money!
>
> In short I want a big estate car that’s easy to drive that I can throw
> bikes in the back plus assorted kit.
>
> I also go to places and live in places that charging is a faff, so I need
> ability to drive at motorway speeds for few hours without needing to charge
> or then have to find some charger, in short I need a EV estate (proper ie
> Volvo or similar) with estimated range 600/700 miles to make up for reduced
> motorway range and pants chargers.
>
> Roger Merriman

Lets start with the people that can drive an EV instead of forcing people into one by bullying people out of ICE and throwing money at EV ownership.

Lou

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 10:30:17 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 5:46:49 PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
> > Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > On 5/25/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 5/25/2023 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>> On 5/25/2023 11:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes
> > >>>> with Dura Ace Ten?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a
> > >>>> lot of advertising, no consumer interest
> > >>>
> > >>> If advertising does not work, why is _Bicycling_ magazine so
> > >>> full of advertising? Why does our local TV news feature so
> > >>> many expensive motor vehicle ads? How did Google become so
> > >>> profitable? (Google's revenue stream really is related to
> > >>> advertising.)
> > >>>
> > >>> Again, the high paid people running companies spend untold
> > >>> millions on advertising. All those dollars are voting
> > >>> against your one counterexample.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Then again a certain Koren auto maker penetrated your brain...
> > >
> > > If you like, I can detail my decision making regarding the Kia.
> > >
> > > I used a simple chart (essentially a hand-drawn spreadsheet) listing
> > > range, price, inside dimensions, outside dimensions (our garage is not
> > > huge), plus a few other details such as the ability to mount bike racks.
> > > (Apparently the Nissan Leaf can't use anything but a hitch mounted bike
> > > rack.) At least one of the cars in that chart (Chevy Volt) were no
> > > longer available new, and if I'd decided on it I'd have shopped for a
> > > used one. And I did check Volt availability in the used car market.
> > >
> > > I compared cars from the used Volt or the Leaf at the low end, up to
> > > every model of Tesla at the high end. I'd narrowed it down to the Chevy
> > > Bolt or the Kia, which are quite close in specs. The Chevy salesman was
> > > bored and lackadaisical, didn't know the product, and wasted my time by
> > > saying two would arrive soon - then changing to "Oh, I guess we don't
> > > know when that first one's due. And the second one is still on the
> > > production line."
> > >
> > > The Kia salesman was very eager and quick to help, literally jogging
> > > away to check on availability, and hurried back to say "We can have one
> > > here in two days." The deciding factor was test-fitting our two folding
> > > bikes into the back along with two kids.
> > >
> > > I don't think ad-speak had any factor at all in my final decision. Oddly
> > > enough, Kia advertisements don't specify whether two folding bikes plus
> > > two kids and two adults will fit into a car.
> > >
> > Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
> > of them and all that.
> >
> > No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don’t value
> > cars enough to spend that sort of money!
> >
> > In short I want a big estate car that’s easy to drive that I can throw
> > bikes in the back plus assorted kit.
> >
> > I also go to places and live in places that charging is a faff, so I need
> > ability to drive at motorway speeds for few hours without needing to charge
> > or then have to find some charger, in short I need a EV estate (proper ie
> > Volvo or similar) with estimated range 600/700 miles to make up for reduced
> > motorway range and pants chargers.
> >
> > Roger Merriman
> Lets start with the people that can drive an EV instead of forcing people into one by bullying people out of ICE and throwing money at EV ownership.

It is likely that Krygowski will be dead before his batteries lose the ability to hold a full charge so he simply doesn't care and thinks that YOU should be forced to buy a car that will become useless in a decade. While battery science is improving every year they will NEVER be perfect or anywhere near it. Frank bought an EV simply because Biden told him to do it.

Toyota presently has a ICE that is very close to perfect. Ford is working on a similar model. These engines do not have a particularly high efficiency but they are more efficient than using the same sort of fossil fuel to generate power at some distant location and then running it into the Urban areas for use. What do you suppose is cheaper? Delivering gasoline by truck in a network that has been around for 80 years or running and maintaining wires and transformers that overheat and explode if they develop a leak and lose cooling oil? Now this can also occur to high voltage Transformers on poles in housing neighborhoods. Rare indeed but what is the cost if it does occur?

Presently because of government policies, gasoline is FAR FAR FAR overpriced so electricity unshackled by these policies appears to be cheap. Let's see how long that lasts. But Frank will never complain because that would mean him saying that his decisions were wrong.

On Fri, 26 May 2023 10:30:14 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 5:46:49?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> > On 5/25/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> On 5/25/2023 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>> On 5/25/2023 11:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes
>> >>>> with Dura Ace Ten?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a
>> >>>> lot of advertising, no consumer interest
>> >>>
>> >>> If advertising does not work, why is _Bicycling_ magazine so
>> >>> full of advertising? Why does our local TV news feature so
>> >>> many expensive motor vehicle ads? How did Google become so
>> >>> profitable? (Google's revenue stream really is related to
>> >>> advertising.)
>> >>>
>> >>> Again, the high paid people running companies spend untold
>> >>> millions on advertising. All those dollars are voting
>> >>> against your one counterexample.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Then again a certain Koren auto maker penetrated your brain...
>> >
>> > If you like, I can detail my decision making regarding the Kia.
>> >
>> > I used a simple chart (essentially a hand-drawn spreadsheet) listing
>> > range, price, inside dimensions, outside dimensions (our garage is not
>> > huge), plus a few other details such as the ability to mount bike racks.
>> > (Apparently the Nissan Leaf can't use anything but a hitch mounted bike
>> > rack.) At least one of the cars in that chart (Chevy Volt) were no
>> > longer available new, and if I'd decided on it I'd have shopped for a
>> > used one. And I did check Volt availability in the used car market.
>> >
>> > I compared cars from the used Volt or the Leaf at the low end, up to
>> > every model of Tesla at the high end. I'd narrowed it down to the Chevy
>> > Bolt or the Kia, which are quite close in specs. The Chevy salesman was
>> > bored and lackadaisical, didn't know the product, and wasted my time by
>> > saying two would arrive soon - then changing to "Oh, I guess we don't
>> > know when that first one's due. And the second one is still on the
>> > production line."
>> >
>> > The Kia salesman was very eager and quick to help, literally jogging
>> > away to check on availability, and hurried back to say "We can have one
>> > here in two days." The deciding factor was test-fitting our two folding
>> > bikes into the back along with two kids.
>> >
>> > I don't think ad-speak had any factor at all in my final decision. Oddly
>> > enough, Kia advertisements don't specify whether two folding bikes plus
>> > two kids and two adults will fit into a car.
>> >
>> Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
>> of them and all that.
>>
>> No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don’t value
>> cars enough to spend that sort of money!
>>
>> In short I want a big estate car that’s easy to drive that I can throw
>> bikes in the back plus assorted kit.
>>
>> I also go to places and live in places that charging is a faff, so I need
>> ability to drive at motorway speeds for few hours without needing to charge
>> or then have to find some charger, in short I need a EV estate (proper ie
>> Volvo or similar) with estimated range 600/700 miles to make up for reduced
>> motorway range and pants chargers.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
>Lets start with the people that can drive an EV instead of forcing people into one by bullying people out of ICE and throwing money at EV ownership.
>
>Lou

+1

I don't know how anyone can do without a pickup, at least an
intermediate sized one like my Nissan Frontier. When we ever go down
to one vehicle it willl be a full size truck with a back seat.

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 12:23:43 PM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Fri, 26 May 2023 10:30:14 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 5:46:49?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> > On 5/25/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >> On 5/25/2023 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> >>> On 5/25/2023 11:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes
> >> >>>> with Dura Ace Ten?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a
> >> >>>> lot of advertising, no consumer interest
> >> >>>
> >> >>> If advertising does not work, why is _Bicycling_ magazine so
> >> >>> full of advertising? Why does our local TV news feature so
> >> >>> many expensive motor vehicle ads? How did Google become so
> >> >>> profitable? (Google's revenue stream really is related to
> >> >>> advertising.)
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Again, the high paid people running companies spend untold
> >> >>> millions on advertising. All those dollars are voting
> >> >>> against your one counterexample.
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >> Then again a certain Koren auto maker penetrated your brain...
> >> >
> >> > If you like, I can detail my decision making regarding the Kia.
> >> >
> >> > I used a simple chart (essentially a hand-drawn spreadsheet) listing
> >> > range, price, inside dimensions, outside dimensions (our garage is not
> >> > huge), plus a few other details such as the ability to mount bike racks.
> >> > (Apparently the Nissan Leaf can't use anything but a hitch mounted bike
> >> > rack.) At least one of the cars in that chart (Chevy Volt) were no
> >> > longer available new, and if I'd decided on it I'd have shopped for a
> >> > used one. And I did check Volt availability in the used car market.
> >> >
> >> > I compared cars from the used Volt or the Leaf at the low end, up to
> >> > every model of Tesla at the high end. I'd narrowed it down to the Chevy
> >> > Bolt or the Kia, which are quite close in specs. The Chevy salesman was
> >> > bored and lackadaisical, didn't know the product, and wasted my time by
> >> > saying two would arrive soon - then changing to "Oh, I guess we don't
> >> > know when that first one's due. And the second one is still on the
> >> > production line."
> >> >
> >> > The Kia salesman was very eager and quick to help, literally jogging
> >> > away to check on availability, and hurried back to say "We can have one
> >> > here in two days." The deciding factor was test-fitting our two folding
> >> > bikes into the back along with two kids.
> >> >
> >> > I don't think ad-speak had any factor at all in my final decision. Oddly
> >> > enough, Kia advertisements don't specify whether two folding bikes plus
> >> > two kids and two adults will fit into a car.
> >> >
> >> Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
> >> of them and all that.
> >>
> >> No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don’t value
> >> cars enough to spend that sort of money!
> >>
> >> In short I want a big estate car that’s easy to drive that I can throw
> >> bikes in the back plus assorted kit.
> >>
> >> I also go to places and live in places that charging is a faff, so I need
> >> ability to drive at motorway speeds for few hours without needing to charge
> >> or then have to find some charger, in short I need a EV estate (proper ie
> >> Volvo or similar) with estimated range 600/700 miles to make up for reduced
> >> motorway range and pants chargers.
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> >
> >Lets start with the people that can drive an EV instead of forcing people into one by bullying people out of ICE and throwing money at EV ownership..
> >
> >Lou
> +1
>
> I don't know how anyone can do without a pickup, at least an
> intermediate sized one like my Nissan Frontier. When we ever go down
> to one vehicle it willl be a full size truck with a back seat.

The last new car I bought was a Ranger with a crew cab.

On 5/26/2023 11:35 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 5:25:43 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/26/2023 8:25 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 4:18:48 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 5/25/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes
>>>>>>> with Dura Ace Ten?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a
>>>>>>> lot of advertising, no consumer interest
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If advertising does not work, why is _Bicycling_ magazine so
>>>>>> full of advertising? Why does our local TV news feature so
>>>>>> many expensive motor vehicle ads? How did Google become so
>>>>>> profitable? (Google's revenue stream really is related to
>>>>>> advertising.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, the high paid people running companies spend untold
>>>>>> millions on advertising. All those dollars are voting
>>>>>> against your one counterexample.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then again a certain Koren auto maker penetrated your brain...
>>>> If you like, I can detail my decision making regarding the Kia.
>>>>
>>>> I used a simple chart (essentially a hand-drawn spreadsheet) listing
>>>> range, price, inside dimensions, outside dimensions (our garage is not
>>>> huge), plus a few other details such as the ability to mount bike racks.
>>>> (Apparently the Nissan Leaf can't use anything but a hitch mounted bike
>>>> rack.) At least one of the cars in that chart (Chevy Volt) were no
>>>> longer available new, and if I'd decided on it I'd have shopped for a
>>>> used one. And I did check Volt availability in the used car market.
>>>>
>>>> I compared cars from the used Volt or the Leaf at the low end, up to
>>>> every model of Tesla at the high end. I'd narrowed it down to the Chevy
>>>> Bolt or the Kia, which are quite close in specs. The Chevy salesman was
>>>> bored and lackadaisical, didn't know the product, and wasted my time by
>>>> saying two would arrive soon - then changing to "Oh, I guess we don't
>>>> know when that first one's due. And the second one is still on the
>>>> production line."
>>>>
>>>> The Kia salesman was very eager and quick to help, literally jogging
>>>> away to check on availability, and hurried back to say "We can have one
>>>> here in two days." The deciding factor was test-fitting our two folding
>>>> bikes into the back along with two kids.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think ad-speak had any factor at all in my final decision. Oddly
>>>> enough, Kia advertisements don't specify whether two folding bikes plus
>>>> two kids and two adults will fit into a car.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> Ah well so your decision is influenced by the smooth talk of the sales person.
>> :-) Nice try! But the decision would have been the same if the salesman
>> had a severe stutter or spoke badly translated English. The deciding
>> factor was that the car was immediately available (at a time they were
>> hard to find); also, he took the initiative to get it in ASAP.
>>
>> FWIW, I probably would have preferred to buy the Chevy, to support
>> American manufacturing, but I was not interested in an undetermined
>> waiting time. As it turns out, this Kia has a feature not available on
>> the Chevy: A heat pump for winter heating, as opposed to pure resistance
>> heating. I'm happy to have that.
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> Hmm, I am dissapointed you didn’t know about a heat pump. It is currently almost a must have.

On the Kia it is (or was) part of an optional "winter" package. The one
car that happened to be available had that package. Apparently it is/was
not available for the Chevy.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 26 May 2023 09:17:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:21:45?AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 May 2023 23:05:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 5/25/2023 5:04 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> When did I even SUGGEST that I thought that the newer components would make me ride any better than my normal abilities?
>> >
>> >Tom, you've given us years of details on your churning of frames, bikes
>> >and components.
>> >
>> >If you're not trying to make your riding better, why in hell are you
>> >doing all the churning?
>> Probably because he enjoys doing it.
>
>Krygowski doesn't even understand the concept of looking for a better ride. He is stuck in the 19th century and doesn't even want to look any further. Again the title as one of the Stupid 4 is overly justified.

Just look at it as yet more evidence that poor old Frankie just isn't
"right in the head" as my old Granny would have said. Just think of
his fear of black pickups.. Can anyone that is terrified of the most
common vehicle on the roads be completely sane?
(The Ford F series is the most sold vehicle in U.S.)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 26 May 2023 12:05:23 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Fri, 26 May 2023 11:47:38 -0400, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 5/26/2023 8:30 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 25 May 2023 23:05:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/25/2023 5:04 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> When did I even SUGGEST that I thought that the newer components would
>>>>>> make me ride any better than my normal abilities?
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom, you've given us years of details on your churning of frames, bikes
>>>>> and components.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you're not trying to make your riding better, why in hell are you
>>>>> doing all the churning?
>>>>
>>>> Probably because he enjoys doing it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And hell at least it’s cycling content! It’s not what I do it would be sad
>>> world if we all did the same!
>>
>>I'd like to hear from Tom about his motivation. He mostly describes his
>>frustrations and confusions about installing parts, which doesn't make
>>the installation work sound pleasant to me. And he occasionally praises
>>a new-to-him bike as being just wonderful ... until it's he says its not
>>and he trades it for yet another.
>>
>>If churning is a satisfying pastime, fine. But he never expresses much
>>satisfaction. It seems natural to wonder why he does it.
>
>...if you're nosy.....

Or, perhaps, yet another chance to demonstrate his superiority!

"See, I still ride this old clunker and thus demonstrate my
superiority!"
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/26/2023 3:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> Krygowski ... simply doesn't care and thinks that YOU should be
forced to buy a car that will become useless in a decade.

There goes Tom yet again, claiming I said something that I never even
hinted at. It's dishonest and cowardly but he does it frequently.

Tom lacks the ability to remember what I've actually said, and lacks the
intellectual ability to understand most of it. Yet he reflexively tries
to argue against whatever he imagines I've said.

Pitiful.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/26/2023 11:44 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>
> Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
> of them and all that.
>
> No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don’t value
> cars enough to spend that sort of money!

I have no opinion about the situation for anyone east of the Atlantic,
but I've said before (here and elsewhere) that I think most Americans
would be better served with a plug in hybrid.

I say that because most Americans do relatively short daily mileage (the
U.S. DOT says 37 miles average) but due to the size of our country
occasionally have to drive hundreds of miles. It's the latter that puts
range anxiety into the minds of most people.

A plug in hybrid would be doing all electric most of the time, but would
allow longer trips with no worries.

I ended up passing on the Chevy Volt (a plug in hybrid) because at least
weekly we do trips of 100+ miles, which the Kia handles very well but
the Volt would do half on gasoline. And we still use bikes for a lot of
local shopping or other utility trips.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/26/2023 3:21 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > I don't know how anyone can do without a pickup, at least an
> intermediate sized one like my Nissan Frontier. When we ever go down
> to one vehicle it willl be a full size truck with a back seat.

Two points:

1) After driving a van for its load capacity, and realizing I rarely
used it, I designed and built a utility trailer. I have the capacity
when I need it, but I don't have the bulk and lousy gas mileage of a
pickup to deal with.

2) If I had said "I don't know how anyone can do without a pickup" Tom
would have said "Frank is trying to force everyone to buy pickups."
Depending on his mood that day, John might have joined in on the claim -
as would the Florida tricycle rider.

Thank goodness there are still some more honest and intelligent people
in this discussion group.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/26/2023 12:51 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Frank has never set a Brifter group up ...

Wrong, yet again.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 26 May 2023 15:44:52 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 5/25/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 5/25/2023 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 5/25/2023 11:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes
>>>>> with Dura Ace Ten?
>>>>>
>>>>> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
>>>>>
>>>>> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a
>>>>> lot of advertising, no consumer interest
>>>>
>>>> If advertising does not work, why is _Bicycling_ magazine so
>>>> full of advertising? Why does our local TV news feature so
>>>> many expensive motor vehicle ads? How did Google become so
>>>> profitable? (Google's revenue stream really is related to
>>>> advertising.)
>>>>
>>>> Again, the high paid people running companies spend untold
>>>> millions on advertising. All those dollars are voting
>>>> against your one counterexample.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Then again a certain Koren auto maker penetrated your brain...
>>
>> If you like, I can detail my decision making regarding the Kia.
>>
>> I used a simple chart (essentially a hand-drawn spreadsheet) listing
>> range, price, inside dimensions, outside dimensions (our garage is not
>> huge), plus a few other details such as the ability to mount bike racks.
>> (Apparently the Nissan Leaf can't use anything but a hitch mounted bike
>> rack.) At least one of the cars in that chart (Chevy Volt) were no
>> longer available new, and if I'd decided on it I'd have shopped for a
>> used one. And I did check Volt availability in the used car market.
>>
>> I compared cars from the used Volt or the Leaf at the low end, up to
>> every model of Tesla at the high end. I'd narrowed it down to the Chevy
>> Bolt or the Kia, which are quite close in specs. The Chevy salesman was
>> bored and lackadaisical, didn't know the product, and wasted my time by
>> saying two would arrive soon - then changing to "Oh, I guess we don't
>> know when that first one's due. And the second one is still on the
>> production line."
>>
>> The Kia salesman was very eager and quick to help, literally jogging
>> away to check on availability, and hurried back to say "We can have one
>> here in two days." The deciding factor was test-fitting our two folding
>> bikes into the back along with two kids.
>>
>> I don't think ad-speak had any factor at all in my final decision. Oddly
>> enough, Kia advertisements don't specify whether two folding bikes plus
>> two kids and two adults will fit into a car.
>>
>Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
>of them and all that.
>
>No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don’t value
>cars enough to spend that sort of money!
>
>In short I want a big estate car that’s easy to drive that I can throw
>bikes in the back plus assorted kit.
>
>I also go to places and live in places that charging is a faff, so I need
>ability to drive at motorway speeds for few hours without needing to charge
>or then have to find some charger, in short I need a EV estate (proper ie
>Volvo or similar) with estimated range 600/700 miles to make up for reduced
>motorway range and pants chargers.
>
>Roger Merriman

If I believed that gas and diesel pickups and their fuel weren't going
to be around for a while, I'd go out and buy one right now.

On Fri, 26 May 2023 15:21:23 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Fri, 26 May 2023 10:30:14 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
><lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 5:46:49?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> > On 5/25/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> >> On 5/25/2023 11:57 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> >>> On 5/25/2023 11:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> If advertising is so powerful, where are all the bikes
>>> >>>> with Dura Ace Ten?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> https://theradavist.com/dura-ace-10-pitch-pista-group/
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Clearly a great engineering breakthrough, but despite a
>>> >>>> lot of advertising, no consumer interest
>>> >>>
>>> >>> If advertising does not work, why is _Bicycling_ magazine so
>>> >>> full of advertising? Why does our local TV news feature so
>>> >>> many expensive motor vehicle ads? How did Google become so
>>> >>> profitable? (Google's revenue stream really is related to
>>> >>> advertising.)
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Again, the high paid people running companies spend untold
>>> >>> millions on advertising. All those dollars are voting
>>> >>> against your one counterexample.
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> Then again a certain Koren auto maker penetrated your brain...
>>> >
>>> > If you like, I can detail my decision making regarding the Kia.
>>> >
>>> > I used a simple chart (essentially a hand-drawn spreadsheet) listing
>>> > range, price, inside dimensions, outside dimensions (our garage is not
>>> > huge), plus a few other details such as the ability to mount bike racks.
>>> > (Apparently the Nissan Leaf can't use anything but a hitch mounted bike
>>> > rack.) At least one of the cars in that chart (Chevy Volt) were no
>>> > longer available new, and if I'd decided on it I'd have shopped for a
>>> > used one. And I did check Volt availability in the used car market.
>>> >
>>> > I compared cars from the used Volt or the Leaf at the low end, up to
>>> > every model of Tesla at the high end. I'd narrowed it down to the Chevy
>>> > Bolt or the Kia, which are quite close in specs. The Chevy salesman was
>>> > bored and lackadaisical, didn't know the product, and wasted my time by
>>> > saying two would arrive soon - then changing to "Oh, I guess we don't
>>> > know when that first one's due. And the second one is still on the
>>> > production line."
>>> >
>>> > The Kia salesman was very eager and quick to help, literally jogging
>>> > away to check on availability, and hurried back to say "We can have one
>>> > here in two days." The deciding factor was test-fitting our two folding
>>> > bikes into the back along with two kids.
>>> >
>>> > I don't think ad-speak had any factor at all in my final decision. Oddly
>>> > enough, Kia advertisements don't specify whether two folding bikes plus
>>> > two kids and two adults will fit into a car.
>>> >
>>> Personally while I think EV are the future of cars though needs to be less
>>> of them and all that.
>>>
>>> No EV made that fits my useage even new let alone 2nd hand as I don’t value
>>> cars enough to spend that sort of money!
>>>
>>> In short I want a big estate car that’s easy to drive that I can throw
>>> bikes in the back plus assorted kit.
>>>
>>> I also go to places and live in places that charging is a faff, so I need
>>> ability to drive at motorway speeds for few hours without needing to charge
>>> or then have to find some charger, in short I need a EV estate (proper ie
>>> Volvo or similar) with estimated range 600/700 miles to make up for reduced
>>> motorway range and pants chargers.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>>Lets start with the people that can drive an EV instead of forcing people into one by bullying people out of ICE and throwing money at EV ownership.
>>
>>Lou
>
>+1
>
>I don't know how anyone can do without a pickup, at least an
>intermediate sized one like my Nissan Frontier. When we ever go down
>to one vehicle it willl be a full size truck with a back seat.

Just load the kids, dogs and bicycles in the bed and you won't need a
rear seat (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/26/2023 12:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/26/2023 10:47 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/26/2023 8:30 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 25 May 2023 23:05:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/25/2023 5:04 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> When did I even SUGGEST that I thought that the newer
>>>>>> components would
>>>>>> make me ride any better than my normal abilities?
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom, you've given us years of details on your churning
>>>>> of frames, bikes
>>>>> and components.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you're not trying to make your riding better, why in
>>>>> hell are you
>>>>> doing all the churning?
>>>>
>>>> Probably because he enjoys doing it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And hell at least it’s cycling content! It’s not what
>>> I do it would be sad
>>> world if we all did the same!
>>
>> I'd like to hear from Tom about his motivation. He mostly
>> describes his frustrations and confusions about installing
>> parts, which doesn't make the installation work sound
>> pleasant to me. And he occasionally praises a new-to-him
>> bike as being just wonderful ... until it's he says its not
>> and he trades it for yet another.
>>
>> If churning is a satisfying pastime, fine. But he never
>> expresses much satisfaction. It seems natural to wonder why
>> he does it.
>>
>
> Perhaps (and likely) he just enjoys bicycles; riding, trying out various
> frames and various equipment, and also wrenching. Mr Kunich is not alone
> in any of that.

I enjoy bicycles, and I suppose we all do or we wouldn't be here. But
from his descriptions, I'm sure Tom does far more churning of bikes and
equipment than anyone else posting here, or any of the other dozens and
dozens of cyclists I know.

Of course he's free to do that; but he never seems satisfied with
anything for long. It seems compulsive and strange. It makes me wonder
about his motivation.

--
- Frank Krygowski