On 5/29/2023 6:22 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Also battery range is severely
>> effected by very hot or very cold weather. Any bets that Krygowski will
>> not admit if he has any troubles with his electric car. >
> Batteries have a operating temperature yes, as do ICE cars, to the
best of
> my knowledge the fall off in range isn’t huge.

In the summer, I'm charging to 90%. The charge two days ago gave an
estimate of 255 miles, which is higher than the car's official rating.
On returning home today, adding mileage driven to guess-o-meter
remaining range gives me a slightly higher number, about 259. That's way
more than I ever need these days.

In winter, charging range (to 100%) was much lower, something like 220
miles. Still more than I need. And no, I never ran out of electrons.
Sorry, Tom, it doesn't matter whether you believe it or not.

> As long as the batteries are not overheating and have some sort of active
> cooling hello Nissan leaf! Then the batteries do seem to be lasting.

I've read quite a bit on that matter and seen lots of data. I decided
the long term range reduction is minor and won't matter to me.

> Lots of cars catch on fire one of my friends has had it happen twice
> within 5 years, no EV.

Can you imagine driving around with many gallons of liquid fuel that can
ignite from an accidental spark? Horrors! ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/29/2023 11:04 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/29/2023 9:39 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/29/2023 9:13 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> So, with so many computer gurus out there today, I expect
>>>> that there
>>>> are many other vehicles driving around with "illegal"
>>>> emmisions.
>>>>
>>>
>>> One only hopes.
>>
>> You hope for more emissions?
>>
>> What the hell! Why?
>>
>
> Any wrench in the works of The Administrative State is fine by me.
OK, can we propose other examples? Like someone sitting in the street in
front of your house and revving their engine with open pipes all night
long? How about open burning of trash in the street in front of your store?

Sheesh.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 29 May 2023 16:59:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to know where you can recharge.

ICE also have their problems with cold temperatures:

"How We Drive a Car at -50°C (-58°F) | Yakutia, Siberia"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH6r6J3WsDk>
"With temperatures dropping as low as -70°C, an unprotected car
freezes within minutes."

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 30 May 2023 11:48:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 29 May 2023 16:59:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to know where you can recharge.
>
>ICE also have their problems with cold temperatures:
>
>"How We Drive a Car at -50°C (-58°F) | Yakutia, Siberia"
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH6r6J3WsDk>
>"With temperatures dropping as low as -70°C, an unprotected car
>freezes within minutes."

Well, nobody I know lives in Siberia :-) But in Bangor Maine it used
to get cold enough that you needed a "heat tape" on your outdoor
kerosene line and if you parked outside a "block heater" was a good
investment. If you wanted to start your car in the morning.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/30/2023 4:59 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 30 May 2023 11:48:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 29 May 2023 16:59:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to know where you can recharge.
>>
>> ICE also have their problems with cold temperatures:
>>
>> "How We Drive a Car at -50°C (-58°F) | Yakutia, Siberia"
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH6r6J3WsDk>
>> "With temperatures dropping as low as -70°C, an unprotected car
>> freezes within minutes."
>
> Well, nobody I know lives in Siberia :-) But in Bangor Maine it used
> to get cold enough that you needed a "heat tape" on your outdoor
> kerosene line and if you parked outside a "block heater" was a good
> investment. If you wanted to start your car in the morning.
>

I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject
long ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start
unassisted in the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr
Brandt kept insisting that a diesel engine can burn any
liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his California
comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:

> On 5/30/2023 4:59 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 May 2023 11:48:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 29 May 2023 16:59:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas
>>>> station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to
>>>> know where you can recharge.
>>>
>>> ICE also have their problems with cold temperatures:
>>>
>>> "How We Drive a Car at -50°C (-58°F) | Yakutia, Siberia"
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH6r6J3WsDk>
>>> "With temperatures dropping as low as -70°C, an unprotected car
>>> freezes within minutes."
>>
>> Well, nobody I know lives in Siberia :-) But in Bangor Maine it used
>> to get cold enough that you needed a "heat tape" on your outdoor
>> kerosene line and if you parked outside a "block heater" was a good
>> investment. If you wanted to start your car in the morning.
>>
>
> I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject long
> ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start unassisted in
> the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr Brandt kept insisting
> that a diesel engine can burn any liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his
> California comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
> zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).

There is a spec for that, it's called the "cloud point". Last time I
knew anything about it the minimum requirement varied from winter to
summer. It certainly is possible to cool diesel fuel to the point that
it can't be pumped.

On Tue, 30 May 2023 18:55:33 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/30/2023 4:59 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 May 2023 11:48:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 29 May 2023 16:59:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to know where you can recharge.
>>>
>>> ICE also have their problems with cold temperatures:
>>>
>>> "How We Drive a Car at -50°C (-58°F) | Yakutia, Siberia"
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH6r6J3WsDk>
>>> "With temperatures dropping as low as -70°C, an unprotected car
>>> freezes within minutes."
>>
>> Well, nobody I know lives in Siberia :-) But in Bangor Maine it used
>> to get cold enough that you needed a "heat tape" on your outdoor
>> kerosene line and if you parked outside a "block heater" was a good
>> investment. If you wanted to start your car in the morning.
>>
>
>I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject
>long ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start
>unassisted in the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr
>Brandt kept insisting that a diesel engine can burn any
>liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his California
>comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
>zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).

I would have argued the same until it happened to me :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/30/2023 8:28 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>
>>
>> I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject long
>> ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start unassisted in
>> the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr Brandt kept insisting
>> that a diesel engine can burn any liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his
>> California comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
>> zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).
>
> There is a spec for that, it's called the "cloud point". Last time I
> knew anything about it the minimum requirement varied from winter to
> summer. It certainly is possible to cool diesel fuel to the point that
> it can't be pumped.

Well, that's true of any liquid. Or any gas, for that matter.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 5:28:59 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>
> > On 5/30/2023 4:59 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Tue, 30 May 2023 11:48:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Mon, 29 May 2023 16:59:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas
> >>>> station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to
> >>>> know where you can recharge.
> >>>
> >>> ICE also have their problems with cold temperatures:
> >>>
> >>> "How We Drive a Car at -50°C (-58°F) | Yakutia, Siberia"
> >>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH6r6J3WsDk>
> >>> "With temperatures dropping as low as -70°C, an unprotected car
> >>> freezes within minutes."
> >>
> >> Well, nobody I know lives in Siberia :-) But in Bangor Maine it used
> >> to get cold enough that you needed a "heat tape" on your outdoor
> >> kerosene line and if you parked outside a "block heater" was a good
> >> investment. If you wanted to start your car in the morning.
> >>
> >
> > I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject long
> > ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start unassisted in
> > the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr Brandt kept insisting
> > that a diesel engine can burn any liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his
> > California comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
> > zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).
> There is a spec for that, it's called the "cloud point". Last time I
> knew anything about it the minimum requirement varied from winter to
> summer. It certainly is possible to cool diesel fuel to the point that
> it can't be pumped.

Winter and Summer diesel fuels are different and it takes very extreme cold for a diesel properly fueled to not start and run.

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 10:11:00 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 26 May 2023 06:29:07 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 7:39:57?AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> >> On Wed, 24 May 2023 03:59:42 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> >> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 10:00:36?AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, 23 May 2023 04:22:30 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> >> >> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 9:09:43?PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >I haven't mentioned anything about _me_ being fearful. If you dispute
> >> >> >> >that, find the post where I said that, and link to it.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> You proclaimed, incorrectly, that people who had guns in their homes
> >> >> >> were more likely to get shot.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Stated with links to studies and statistics, dumbass. Your response? "<snivel> no their not".
> >> >> >
> >> >> Actually gun and ownership and firearm homicide do not necessarily
> >> >> coincide.
> >> >>
> >> >> Arkansas has a gun ownership of 57.9% and a gun homicide rate of
> >> >> 3.7/100,000. Idaho has a gun ownership of 56.9% and a homicide rate of
> >> >> 1.5. 1% fewer guns and less then half the firearm murders.
> >> >>
> >> >> North Dakota has gun ownership of 47.9% and firearm murder rate of
> >> >> 1.2./100,000 while Maine has a gun ownership of 22.6 and a homicide
> >> >> are of 1.2.
> >> >>
> >> >> The data is out there. All you have to do is look (:-)
> >> >
> >> >Nice try jonny, Too bad those numbers don't actually address the issue.
> >> > 1- the key phrase is "in the home"
> >> > 2 - we aren't talking strictly abut homicides
> >> >
> >> >I'll leave that there just to see if you actually get it - I'm guessing not.
> >> Are you for real?
> >>
> >> I listed the gun ownership as a percent of the population. You argue
> >> that they aren't in the home. So tell us where are these guns owned by
> >> the population if not in the home? From above, 57.9% of the population
> >> of Arkansas owns a gun. So tell us oh great and noble nitwit, where do
> >> you think these guns are kept? Is there some giant locker in each town
> >> where everyone stores their gun(s) so that they don't have to carry
> >> them home?
> >
> >As I said, you aren't getting it. Those homicides rates you love to quote aren't only in the home. Nether do they include accidental shootings in the home. That's the point here, oh great and noble nitwit.
> >
> An interesting comment. Well, lets see... do you understand the word
> "homicide"? For your information the dictionary tells us that it
> means... "the killing of one person by another". You don't believe
> that an accidental killing of a person my another person is a
> homicide?

It's not legally classified as such, and that's how the rates are determined. An accidental shooting doesn't show up in the homicide rates.

>
> Next" The homicide rate listed represents all the homicides for the
> period. In the house, out in the barn, walking down the road. Now,
> when one state has a firearm homicide rate of 1.2/100,000 population
> and another has a rate of 3.7 per 100,000 is it logical to believe
> that as all homicides are 3 times greater that homicides in the home
> might be greater also?

no.

>
> No, you probably don't as you don't seem to know much about anything.
> Granted you do make a lot of noise but noise, per se, doesn't indicate
> anything at all, well except that you are boring.

Your conflation of data and misinterpretation of the written word is approaching legendary status. It doesn't take a genius to see that.

>
> I'd tell you to go away but I know that you won't as like the Afro guy
> you get your jollies by writing what can be termed "a bunch of bull
> shit" and then you stick your chest out and prance around the house
> bragging to your mother, "See Mom!" "See what I did!" And your Mommy
> replies, "be sure to flush the toilet after you use it".
> --

Funny coming from someone who can only repeat his same tired illegitimate statistics and claim he's always right. That's the stuff you should be reminded to flush.

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 4:56:47 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:00:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 5/27/2023 7:20 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> ... the obvious solution is No! More! Trucks!
> >
> >John, it should embarrass you to keep putting imaginary words in my
> >mouth. "Straw man arguments" are intellectually weak, and dishonest.
> Is claiming that coorelation implies causation kind of a straw man
> argument?

Sure. Now show where anyone here has ever said that, dumbass...

> >> As for blind spots, to my experience all enclosed vehicles have blind
> >> spots ...
> >
> >All vehicles are not equal. Some have much worse blinds spots than
> >others. Even you should be able to understand that.
> >
> >See
> >https://www.motorbiscuit.com/why-pickup-trucks-blind-spots-much-bigger-suvs/
> >
> >or
> >https://driving.ca/auto-news/driver-info/blind-spots-on-pickup-trucks-are-killing-pedestrians-says-consumer-reports

On 5/31/2023 9:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 5:28:59 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/30/2023 4:59 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 30 May 2023 11:48:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 29 May 2023 16:59:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas
>>>>>> station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to
>>>>>> know where you can recharge.
>>>>>
>>>>> ICE also have their problems with cold temperatures:
>>>>>
>>>>> "How We Drive a Car at -50°C (-58°F) | Yakutia, Siberia"
>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH6r6J3WsDk>
>>>>> "With temperatures dropping as low as -70°C, an unprotected car
>>>>> freezes within minutes."
>>>>
>>>> Well, nobody I know lives in Siberia :-) But in Bangor Maine it used
>>>> to get cold enough that you needed a "heat tape" on your outdoor
>>>> kerosene line and if you parked outside a "block heater" was a good
>>>> investment. If you wanted to start your car in the morning.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject long
>>> ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start unassisted in
>>> the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr Brandt kept insisting
>>> that a diesel engine can burn any liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his
>>> California comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
>>> zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).
>> There is a spec for that, it's called the "cloud point". Last time I
>> knew anything about it the minimum requirement varied from winter to
>> summer. It certainly is possible to cool diesel fuel to the point that
>> it can't be pumped.
>
> Winter and Summer diesel fuels are different and it takes very extreme cold for a diesel properly fueled to not start and run.
>

Without a tank and/or line heater you would be wrong.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/31/2023 9:49 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 10:11:00 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 May 2023 06:29:07 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 7:39:57?AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 24 May 2023 03:59:42 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 10:00:36?AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 23 May 2023 04:22:30 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 9:09:43?PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I haven't mentioned anything about _me_ being fearful. If you dispute
>>>>>>>>> that, find the post where I said that, and link to it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You proclaimed, incorrectly, that people who had guns in their homes
>>>>>>>> were more likely to get shot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stated with links to studies and statistics, dumbass. Your response? "<snivel> no their not".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually gun and ownership and firearm homicide do not necessarily
>>>>>> coincide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arkansas has a gun ownership of 57.9% and a gun homicide rate of
>>>>>> 3.7/100,000. Idaho has a gun ownership of 56.9% and a homicide rate of
>>>>>> 1.5. 1% fewer guns and less then half the firearm murders.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> North Dakota has gun ownership of 47.9% and firearm murder rate of
>>>>>> 1.2./100,000 while Maine has a gun ownership of 22.6 and a homicide
>>>>>> are of 1.2.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The data is out there. All you have to do is look (:-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Nice try jonny, Too bad those numbers don't actually address the issue.
>>>>> 1- the key phrase is "in the home"
>>>>> 2 - we aren't talking strictly abut homicides
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll leave that there just to see if you actually get it - I'm guessing not.
>>>> Are you for real?
>>>>
>>>> I listed the gun ownership as a percent of the population. You argue
>>>> that they aren't in the home. So tell us where are these guns owned by
>>>> the population if not in the home? From above, 57.9% of the population
>>>> of Arkansas owns a gun. So tell us oh great and noble nitwit, where do
>>>> you think these guns are kept? Is there some giant locker in each town
>>>> where everyone stores their gun(s) so that they don't have to carry
>>>> them home?
>>>
>>> As I said, you aren't getting it. Those homicides rates you love to quote aren't only in the home. Nether do they include accidental shootings in the home. That's the point here, oh great and noble nitwit.
>>>
>> An interesting comment. Well, lets see... do you understand the word
>> "homicide"? For your information the dictionary tells us that it
>> means... "the killing of one person by another". You don't believe
>> that an accidental killing of a person my another person is a
>> homicide?
>
> It's not legally classified as such, and that's how the rates are determined. An accidental shooting doesn't show up in the homicide rates.
>
>>
>> Next" The homicide rate listed represents all the homicides for the
>> period. In the house, out in the barn, walking down the road. Now,
>> when one state has a firearm homicide rate of 1.2/100,000 population
>> and another has a rate of 3.7 per 100,000 is it logical to believe
>> that as all homicides are 3 times greater that homicides in the home
>> might be greater also?
>
> no.
>
>>
>> No, you probably don't as you don't seem to know much about anything.
>> Granted you do make a lot of noise but noise, per se, doesn't indicate
>> anything at all, well except that you are boring.
>
> Your conflation of data and misinterpretation of the written word is approaching legendary status. It doesn't take a genius to see that.
>
>>
>> I'd tell you to go away but I know that you won't as like the Afro guy
>> you get your jollies by writing what can be termed "a bunch of bull
>> shit" and then you stick your chest out and prance around the house
>> bragging to your mother, "See Mom!" "See what I did!" And your Mommy
>> replies, "be sure to flush the toilet after you use it".
>> --
>
> Funny coming from someone who can only repeat his same tired illegitimate statistics and claim he's always right. That's the stuff you should be reminded to flush.
>

Actually negligent homicide is still a homicide:
https://legaldictionary.net/negligent-homicide/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 8:03:24 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/31/2023 9:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 5:28:59 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
> >>
> >>> On 5/30/2023 4:59 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, 30 May 2023 11:48:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Mon, 29 May 2023 16:59:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas
> >>>>>> station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to
> >>>>>> know where you can recharge.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ICE also have their problems with cold temperatures:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "How We Drive a Car at -50°C (-58°F) | Yakutia, Siberia"
> >>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH6r6J3WsDk>
> >>>>> "With temperatures dropping as low as -70°C, an unprotected car
> >>>>> freezes within minutes."
> >>>>
> >>>> Well, nobody I know lives in Siberia :-) But in Bangor Maine it used
> >>>> to get cold enough that you needed a "heat tape" on your outdoor
> >>>> kerosene line and if you parked outside a "block heater" was a good
> >>>> investment. If you wanted to start your car in the morning.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject long
> >>> ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start unassisted in
> >>> the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr Brandt kept insisting
> >>> that a diesel engine can burn any liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his
> >>> California comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
> >>> zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).
> >> There is a spec for that, it's called the "cloud point". Last time I
> >> knew anything about it the minimum requirement varied from winter to
> >> summer. It certainly is possible to cool diesel fuel to the point that
> >> it can't be pumped.
> >
> > Winter and Summer diesel fuels are different and it takes very extreme cold for a diesel properly fueled to not start and run.
> >
> Without a tank and/or line heater you would be wrong.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

What sort of heavy transportation diesel truck is not equipped with these? You aren't going to plow your field but snowplows are diesel and they work in the worst weather. If the country came to a stop in cold weather many places like Wyoming, Idaho and Montana would not exist.

On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 11:09:55 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/31/2023 9:49 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 10:11:00 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> >> On Fri, 26 May 2023 06:29:07 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> >> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 7:39:57?AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 24 May 2023 03:59:42 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> >>>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 10:00:36?AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>> On Tue, 23 May 2023 04:22:30 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> >>>>>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 9:09:43?PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I haven't mentioned anything about _me_ being fearful. If you dispute
> >>>>>>>>> that, find the post where I said that, and link to it.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> You proclaimed, incorrectly, that people who had guns in their homes
> >>>>>>>> were more likely to get shot.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Stated with links to studies and statistics, dumbass. Your response? "<snivel> no their not".
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Actually gun and ownership and firearm homicide do not necessarily
> >>>>>> coincide.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Arkansas has a gun ownership of 57.9% and a gun homicide rate of
> >>>>>> 3.7/100,000. Idaho has a gun ownership of 56.9% and a homicide rate of
> >>>>>> 1.5. 1% fewer guns and less then half the firearm murders.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> North Dakota has gun ownership of 47.9% and firearm murder rate of
> >>>>>> 1.2./100,000 while Maine has a gun ownership of 22.6 and a homicide
> >>>>>> are of 1.2.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The data is out there. All you have to do is look (:-)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Nice try jonny, Too bad those numbers don't actually address the issue.
> >>>>> 1- the key phrase is "in the home"
> >>>>> 2 - we aren't talking strictly abut homicides
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'll leave that there just to see if you actually get it - I'm guessing not.
> >>>> Are you for real?
> >>>>
> >>>> I listed the gun ownership as a percent of the population. You argue
> >>>> that they aren't in the home. So tell us where are these guns owned by
> >>>> the population if not in the home? From above, 57.9% of the population
> >>>> of Arkansas owns a gun. So tell us oh great and noble nitwit, where do
> >>>> you think these guns are kept? Is there some giant locker in each town
> >>>> where everyone stores their gun(s) so that they don't have to carry
> >>>> them home?
> >>>
> >>> As I said, you aren't getting it. Those homicides rates you love to quote aren't only in the home. Nether do they include accidental shootings in the home. That's the point here, oh great and noble nitwit.
> >>>
> >> An interesting comment. Well, lets see... do you understand the word
> >> "homicide"? For your information the dictionary tells us that it
> >> means... "the killing of one person by another". You don't believe
> >> that an accidental killing of a person my another person is a
> >> homicide?
> >
> > It's not legally classified as such, and that's how the rates are determined. An accidental shooting doesn't show up in the homicide rates.
> >
> >>
> >> Next" The homicide rate listed represents all the homicides for the
> >> period. In the house, out in the barn, walking down the road. Now,
> >> when one state has a firearm homicide rate of 1.2/100,000 population
> >> and another has a rate of 3.7 per 100,000 is it logical to believe
> >> that as all homicides are 3 times greater that homicides in the home
> >> might be greater also?
> >
> > no.
> >
> >>
> >> No, you probably don't as you don't seem to know much about anything.
> >> Granted you do make a lot of noise but noise, per se, doesn't indicate
> >> anything at all, well except that you are boring.
> >
> > Your conflation of data and misinterpretation of the written word is approaching legendary status. It doesn't take a genius to see that.
> >
> >>
> >> I'd tell you to go away but I know that you won't as like the Afro guy
> >> you get your jollies by writing what can be termed "a bunch of bull
> >> shit" and then you stick your chest out and prance around the house
> >> bragging to your mother, "See Mom!" "See what I did!" And your Mommy
> >> replies, "be sure to flush the toilet after you use it".
> >> --
> >
> > Funny coming from someone who can only repeat his same tired illegitimate statistics and claim he's always right. That's the stuff you should be reminded to flush.
> >
> Actually negligent homicide is still a homicide:
> https://legaldictionary.net/negligent-homicide/
> --

The operative word being "homicide".

But I stand corrected. A quick further review to my assumption proved incorrect:

https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/ntmh.pdf

"he SHR form has two sections: one for all murders and
nonnegligent manslaughters (including justifiable homicides)
and one for negligent manslaughters. Murder and nonnegligent
manslaughter homicides include cases that are suspected to be
murders, violence-related manslaughters, law enforcement-
related killings, and homicides committed in self-defense.
Negligent manslaughter homicides include cases that are
determined to be unintentional killings of one person by
another (excluding motor vehicle crashes)"

On Wed, 31 May 2023 07:49:00 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 10:11:00?AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 May 2023 06:29:07 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 7:39:57?AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 24 May 2023 03:59:42 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> >> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 10:00:36?AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> >> >> On Tue, 23 May 2023 04:22:30 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> >> >> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 9:09:43?PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >I haven't mentioned anything about _me_ being fearful. If you dispute
>> >> >> >> >that, find the post where I said that, and link to it.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> You proclaimed, incorrectly, that people who had guns in their homes
>> >> >> >> were more likely to get shot.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Stated with links to studies and statistics, dumbass. Your response? "<snivel> no their not".
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> Actually gun and ownership and firearm homicide do not necessarily
>> >> >> coincide.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Arkansas has a gun ownership of 57.9% and a gun homicide rate of
>> >> >> 3.7/100,000. Idaho has a gun ownership of 56.9% and a homicide rate of
>> >> >> 1.5. 1% fewer guns and less then half the firearm murders.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> North Dakota has gun ownership of 47.9% and firearm murder rate of
>> >> >> 1.2./100,000 while Maine has a gun ownership of 22.6 and a homicide
>> >> >> are of 1.2.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The data is out there. All you have to do is look (:-)
>> >> >
>> >> >Nice try jonny, Too bad those numbers don't actually address the issue.
>> >> > 1- the key phrase is "in the home"
>> >> > 2 - we aren't talking strictly abut homicides
>> >> >
>> >> >I'll leave that there just to see if you actually get it - I'm guessing not.
>> >> Are you for real?
>> >>
>> >> I listed the gun ownership as a percent of the population. You argue
>> >> that they aren't in the home. So tell us where are these guns owned by
>> >> the population if not in the home? From above, 57.9% of the population
>> >> of Arkansas owns a gun. So tell us oh great and noble nitwit, where do
>> >> you think these guns are kept? Is there some giant locker in each town
>> >> where everyone stores their gun(s) so that they don't have to carry
>> >> them home?
>> >
>> >As I said, you aren't getting it. Those homicides rates you love to quote aren't only in the home. Nether do they include accidental shootings in the home. That's the point here, oh great and noble nitwit.
>> >
>> An interesting comment. Well, lets see... do you understand the word
>> "homicide"? For your information the dictionary tells us that it
>> means... "the killing of one person by another". You don't believe
>> that an accidental killing of a person my another person is a
>> homicide?
>
>It's not legally classified as such, and that's how the rates are determined. An accidental shooting doesn't show up in the homicide rates.
>
https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?typed=homicide&type=1
homicide
n. the killing of a human being due to the act or omission of another.
Included among homicides are murder and manslaughter, but not all
homicides are a crime, particularly when there is a lack of criminal
intent. Non-criminal homicides include killing in self-defense, a
misadventure like a hunting ...

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 31 May 2023 10:03:17 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/31/2023 9:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 5:28:59 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 5/30/2023 4:59 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 30 May 2023 11:48:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 29 May 2023 16:59:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas
>>>>>>> station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to
>>>>>>> know where you can recharge.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ICE also have their problems with cold temperatures:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "How We Drive a Car at -50°C (-58°F) | Yakutia, Siberia"
>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH6r6J3WsDk>
>>>>>> "With temperatures dropping as low as -70°C, an unprotected car
>>>>>> freezes within minutes."
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, nobody I know lives in Siberia :-) But in Bangor Maine it used
>>>>> to get cold enough that you needed a "heat tape" on your outdoor
>>>>> kerosene line and if you parked outside a "block heater" was a good
>>>>> investment. If you wanted to start your car in the morning.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject long
>>>> ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start unassisted in
>>>> the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr Brandt kept insisting
>>>> that a diesel engine can burn any liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his
>>>> California comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
>>>> zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).
>>> There is a spec for that, it's called the "cloud point". Last time I
>>> knew anything about it the minimum requirement varied from winter to
>>> summer. It certainly is possible to cool diesel fuel to the point that
>>> it can't be pumped.
>>
>> Winter and Summer diesel fuels are different and it takes very extreme cold for a diesel properly fueled to not start and run.
>>
>
>
>Without a tank and/or line heater you would be wrong.

The usual starting problem with any internal combustion engine in cold
weather isn't just the fuel. In severe cold the oil becomes so
"stiff" that the starter can barely turn the engine over. This is the
problem that the "engine heater" is meant to overcome.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/31/2023 10:22 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 8:03:24 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/31/2023 9:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 5:28:59 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/30/2023 4:59 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 30 May 2023 11:48:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 29 May 2023 16:59:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas
>>>>>>>> station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to
>>>>>>>> know where you can recharge.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ICE also have their problems with cold temperatures:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "How We Drive a Car at -50°C (-58°F) | Yakutia, Siberia"
>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH6r6J3WsDk>
>>>>>>> "With temperatures dropping as low as -70°C, an unprotected car
>>>>>>> freezes within minutes."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, nobody I know lives in Siberia :-) But in Bangor Maine it used
>>>>>> to get cold enough that you needed a "heat tape" on your outdoor
>>>>>> kerosene line and if you parked outside a "block heater" was a good
>>>>>> investment. If you wanted to start your car in the morning.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject long
>>>>> ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start unassisted in
>>>>> the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr Brandt kept insisting
>>>>> that a diesel engine can burn any liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his
>>>>> California comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
>>>>> zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).
>>>> There is a spec for that, it's called the "cloud point". Last time I
>>>> knew anything about it the minimum requirement varied from winter to
>>>> summer. It certainly is possible to cool diesel fuel to the point that
>>>> it can't be pumped.
>>>
>>> Winter and Summer diesel fuels are different and it takes very extreme cold for a diesel properly fueled to not start and run.
>>>
>> Without a tank and/or line heater you would be wrong.

>
> What sort of heavy transportation diesel truck is not equipped with these? You aren't going to plow your field but snowplows are diesel and they work in the worst weather. If the country came to a stop in cold weather many places like Wyoming, Idaho and Montana would not exist.
>
The problem is most noticed in pickup trucks and German sedans.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/31/2023 10:39 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 31 May 2023 10:03:17 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 5/31/2023 9:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 5:28:59 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/30/2023 4:59 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 30 May 2023 11:48:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 29 May 2023 16:59:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas
>>>>>>>> station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to
>>>>>>>> know where you can recharge.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ICE also have their problems with cold temperatures:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "How We Drive a Car at -50°C (-58°F) | Yakutia, Siberia"
>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH6r6J3WsDk>
>>>>>>> "With temperatures dropping as low as -70°C, an unprotected car
>>>>>>> freezes within minutes."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, nobody I know lives in Siberia :-) But in Bangor Maine it used
>>>>>> to get cold enough that you needed a "heat tape" on your outdoor
>>>>>> kerosene line and if you parked outside a "block heater" was a good
>>>>>> investment. If you wanted to start your car in the morning.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject long
>>>>> ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start unassisted in
>>>>> the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr Brandt kept insisting
>>>>> that a diesel engine can burn any liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his
>>>>> California comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
>>>>> zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).
>>>> There is a spec for that, it's called the "cloud point". Last time I
>>>> knew anything about it the minimum requirement varied from winter to
>>>> summer. It certainly is possible to cool diesel fuel to the point that
>>>> it can't be pumped.
>>>
>>> Winter and Summer diesel fuels are different and it takes very extreme cold for a diesel properly fueled to not start and run.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Without a tank and/or line heater you would be wrong.
>
> The usual starting problem with any internal combustion engine in cold
> weather isn't just the fuel. In severe cold the oil becomes so
> "stiff" that the starter can barely turn the engine over. This is the
> problem that the "engine heater" is meant to overcome.
>

Gasoline vehicles here use block heaters. Goes inline in the
coolant system.

Diesels need a fuel heater else jello won't move to the engine.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 31 May 2023 10:51:58 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/31/2023 10:39 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 31 May 2023 10:03:17 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/31/2023 9:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 5:28:59 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/30/2023 4:59 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 May 2023 11:48:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 29 May 2023 16:59:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas
>>>>>>>>> station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to
>>>>>>>>> know where you can recharge.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ICE also have their problems with cold temperatures:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "How We Drive a Car at -50°C (-58°F) | Yakutia, Siberia"
>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH6r6J3WsDk>
>>>>>>>> "With temperatures dropping as low as -70°C, an unprotected car
>>>>>>>> freezes within minutes."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, nobody I know lives in Siberia :-) But in Bangor Maine it used
>>>>>>> to get cold enough that you needed a "heat tape" on your outdoor
>>>>>>> kerosene line and if you parked outside a "block heater" was a good
>>>>>>> investment. If you wanted to start your car in the morning.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject long
>>>>>> ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start unassisted in
>>>>>> the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr Brandt kept insisting
>>>>>> that a diesel engine can burn any liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his
>>>>>> California comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
>>>>>> zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).
>>>>> There is a spec for that, it's called the "cloud point". Last time I
>>>>> knew anything about it the minimum requirement varied from winter to
>>>>> summer. It certainly is possible to cool diesel fuel to the point that
>>>>> it can't be pumped.
>>>>
>>>> Winter and Summer diesel fuels are different and it takes very extreme cold for a diesel properly fueled to not start and run.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Without a tank and/or line heater you would be wrong.
>>
>> The usual starting problem with any internal combustion engine in cold
>> weather isn't just the fuel. In severe cold the oil becomes so
>> "stiff" that the starter can barely turn the engine over. This is the
>> problem that the "engine heater" is meant to overcome.
>>
>
>Gasoline vehicles here use block heaters. Goes inline in the
>coolant system.
>
>Diesels need a fuel heater else jello won't move to the engine.

True, depending on temperatures. But I've had the experience of a
diesels not starting due to "stiff" oil when the fuel was still
liquid.

Somewhere I read that 10 degrees (F) was about the jelling point for
diesel.
--
Cheers,

John B.

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 5/31/2023 9:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 5:28:59 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 5/30/2023 4:59 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 30 May 2023 11:48:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 29 May 2023 16:59:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas
>>>>>>> station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to
>>>>>>> know where you can recharge.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ICE also have their problems with cold temperatures:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "How We Drive a Car at -50°C (-58°F) | Yakutia, Siberia"
>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH6r6J3WsDk>
>>>>>> "With temperatures dropping as low as -70°C, an unprotected car
>>>>>> freezes within minutes."
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, nobody I know lives in Siberia :-) But in Bangor Maine it used
>>>>> to get cold enough that you needed a "heat tape" on your outdoor
>>>>> kerosene line and if you parked outside a "block heater" was a good
>>>>> investment. If you wanted to start your car in the morning.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject long
>>>> ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start unassisted in
>>>> the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr Brandt kept insisting
>>>> that a diesel engine can burn any liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his
>>>> California comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
>>>> zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).
>>> There is a spec for that, it's called the "cloud point". Last time I
>>> knew anything about it the minimum requirement varied from winter to
>>> summer. It certainly is possible to cool diesel fuel to the point that
>>> it can't be pumped.
>>
>> Winter and Summer diesel fuels are different and it takes very extreme
>> cold for a diesel properly fueled to not start and run.
>>
>
>
> Without a tank and/or line heater you would be wrong.
>
Or to simply run a bit poorly some of the school buses used to run a bit
lumpy as some of the tank was still solid.

Roger Merriman

On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 8:48:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/31/2023 10:22 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 8:03:24 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 5/31/2023 9:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 5:28:59 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 5/30/2023 4:59 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>> On Tue, 30 May 2023 11:48:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Mon, 29 May 2023 16:59:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas
> >>>>>>>> station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to
> >>>>>>>> know where you can recharge.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ICE also have their problems with cold temperatures:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "How We Drive a Car at -50°C (-58°F) | Yakutia, Siberia"
> >>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH6r6J3WsDk>
> >>>>>>> "With temperatures dropping as low as -70°C, an unprotected car
> >>>>>>> freezes within minutes."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Well, nobody I know lives in Siberia :-) But in Bangor Maine it used
> >>>>>> to get cold enough that you needed a "heat tape" on your outdoor
> >>>>>> kerosene line and if you parked outside a "block heater" was a good
> >>>>>> investment. If you wanted to start your car in the morning.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject long
> >>>>> ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start unassisted in
> >>>>> the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr Brandt kept insisting
> >>>>> that a diesel engine can burn any liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his
> >>>>> California comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
> >>>>> zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).
> >>>> There is a spec for that, it's called the "cloud point". Last time I
> >>>> knew anything about it the minimum requirement varied from winter to
> >>>> summer. It certainly is possible to cool diesel fuel to the point that
> >>>> it can't be pumped.
> >>>
> >>> Winter and Summer diesel fuels are different and it takes very extreme cold for a diesel properly fueled to not start and run.
> >>>
> >> Without a tank and/or line heater you would be wrong.
>
> >
> > What sort of heavy transportation diesel truck is not equipped with these? You aren't going to plow your field but snowplows are diesel and they work in the worst weather. If the country came to a stop in cold weather many places like Wyoming, Idaho and Montana would not exist.
> >
> The problem is most noticed in pickup trucks and German sedans.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Anti-gel cetane automotive boosters is used in place of the heating in the diesel automobiles. It isn't very expensive and is quite effective in sub-zero temperatures. Isn't this a topic drift from one of the Stupid 4 saying that gasoline car performance is reduced the tested 20% drop in range of the electric vehicle which is further reduced by needing to turn the heater on? In the first place, gasoline performance is NOT effected after the motor warms up (in fact the cold air is denser and increases performance slightly) and secondly, heating for the passengers is waste heat that doesn't affect mileage. (Well, today many vehicles are warmed initially with an electric heater booster.)

Gasoline cars which are the overwhelming majority of cars made world wide are only effected by sub zero temperatures at initial startup. Since Moscow is wall to wall traffic I wouldn't worry about the so-called reduction of performance of ICE's. Funny how Tesla's aren't popular around the world. The ONLY advantage of the Mustang E is that it is quiet.

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> On 5/30/2023 8:28 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>>
>>>
>>> I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject long
>>> ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start unassisted in
>>> the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr Brandt kept insisting
>>> that a diesel engine can burn any liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his
>>> California comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
>>> zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).
>> There is a spec for that, it's called the "cloud point". Last time
>> I
>> knew anything about it the minimum requirement varied from winter to
>> summer. It certainly is possible to cool diesel fuel to the point that
>> it can't be pumped.
>
> Well, that's true of any liquid. Or any gas, for that matter.

Helium?

John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tue, 30 May 2023 18:55:33 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>On 5/30/2023 4:59 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Tue, 30 May 2023 11:48:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 29 May 2023 16:59:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas
>>>>> station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to
>>>>> know where you can recharge.
>>>>
>>>> ICE also have their problems with cold temperatures:
>>>>
>>>> "How We Drive a Car at -50°C (-58°F) | Yakutia, Siberia"
>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH6r6J3WsDk>
>>>> "With temperatures dropping as low as -70°C, an unprotected car
>>>> freezes within minutes."
>>>
>>> Well, nobody I know lives in Siberia :-) But in Bangor Maine it used
>>> to get cold enough that you needed a "heat tape" on your outdoor
>>> kerosene line and if you parked outside a "block heater" was a good
>>> investment. If you wanted to start your car in the morning.
>>>
>>
>>I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject
>>long ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start
>>unassisted in the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr
>>Brandt kept insisting that a diesel engine can burn any
>>liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his California
>>comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
>>zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).
>
> I would have argued the same until it happened to me :-)

Some happy few can learn from the mistakes of others. The rest
are compelled to be the others.

On Wed, 31 May 2023 10:03:17 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/31/2023 9:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> Winter and Summer diesel fuels are different and it takes very extreme cold for a diesel properly fueled to not start and run.

>Without a tank and/or line heater you would be wrong.

Generally true. I drove a 1980 Dodge D50 diesel 4x4 pickup (made by
Mitsubishi) for 230,000 miles and therefore have some cold weather
diesel experience:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/Dodge-D50/>
Wonderful pickup truck. It came stock with a block heater fitted into
a freeze plug hole with just a power cord hanging out. No fuse, no
electronics, no thermostat light. At 32F (0C) and below, #2 diesel
turns to Jell-O. The fuel pump will move the Jell-O, but not easily,
especially if the fuel filter is clogged with frozen water. Anti-Gel
additives allegedly work down to -40F (-40C) but from my experience,
are problematic below about -20F (-29C):
<https://www.google.com/search?q=diesel+anti+gel&tbm=isch>
Glow plugs are a must for cold weather starting.

However, the main cold weather problem is not the fuel. It's the
engine oil. I once stupidly drove to a below freezing mountain top. I
had to get towed ($$$$) to the nearest heated garage where I changed
the oil from 30w to 10w30 diesel oil and then waited about 4 hrs for
the engine to become warm enough to start. Expensive lesson learned.

Incidentally, diesel #1 for cold temperatures is kerosene (#2 diesel
with most of the wax removed). There are also diesel blends. Diesel
#2 is the same as heating oil or fuel oil.
<https://kendrickoil.com/the-differences-between-heating-fuels-kerosene-and-diesel-fuel/>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558