On Fri, 20 May 2022 18:17:50 +0100, whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 3:10:15 AM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
>
>> Trees consume CO2. The more CO2, the more trees. More trees for you to hug.
>
> Where to begin? That's completely false. Firstly, forests are thermoregulating
> and are efficient CO2 sinks because of their evaporative cooling

So you agree, trees eat CO2. What are you arguing about?

> (using water from roots to keep leaves at optimum photosynthetic temperature).
> So, it isn't 'trees' you want, it's forests.

Forests are just lots of trees, what's your fucking point?

> Second, more CO2 might change the growing conditions,

It makes them grow a lot faster.

> but as it heats
> the planet, that cooling might not work as well (it does need water). Fires
> can take forests down to ash if weather cycles make flammable wood
> faster than the deadwood can decay, so... warming climate threatens forests.

Oooh slightly different weather. It changes every five minutes anyway.

> That means FEWER trees, unless some seeds in the soil survive the inferno.
> One doesn't hug saplings.

LESS. Stop using an incorrect generalization of a personal preference expressed by a grammarian in 1770.

On Sun, 29 May 2022 10:52:39 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 18:37:33 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 May 2022 02:02:50 +0100, ke...@kjw.com <ke...@kjw.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 17:51:06 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:47:11 +0100, whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:35:25 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> >> >> On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:13:19 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> >The only way to make a finding of 90 million tons is to ignore every rock that hasn't
>> >> >> >been declared part of a current Lithium mining claim, i.e. assume only today's lithium mines
>> >> >> >contain all the Earth's lithium element. That's a world-size error.
>> >> >
>> >> >> The problem isn't abundance, it's concentration.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> There's lots of lithium in the ocean, 0.2 PPM, too expensive to
>> >> >> extract.
>> >> >
>> >> > Yeah, the ocean is a dilute ore for lots of things. There's lots of ancient dead seas, though,
>> >> > where lots of concentration happened, for free, eons ago. The 'economic' place is always the
>> >> > closest to mass transport and cheapest to extract. Other sites for mining that
>> >> > aren't worth developing this year, will be ready when mine #1 empties.
>> >> > Next year, a few dollars per ton of price hike won't bankrupt anyone.
>> >>
>> >> Electric cars are too expensive as it is. Fuck that I'm using petrol.
>> >
>> > Your choice.
>> I buy the car which cost the least overall. If the cost of buying it is more than the fuel saving, then it was pointless.
>
> For many people the total cost of ownership of an electric vehicle is significantly less than that of a conventional car - even a mundane Toyota Camry.

Incorrect. They cost a fortune. They save a small amount, which is only a saving because the government taxes petrol and not electricity. False saving.

On Sun, 29 May 2022 10:48:36 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 18:41:25 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:09:05 +0100, ke...@kjw.com <ke...@kjw.com> wrote:
>> > On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 10:02:46 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> > ...
>> >> The amount of Lithium required to run every single car in the world is enormous. It's a rare element. Batteries need to be made of something else. Preferably something that doesn't quadruple the cost of the vehicle.
>> > ...
>> >
>> > The amount of oil required to run every single car in the world is enormous. Oil is rare. We only have about 47 years left at current consumption rates.
>> >
>> > Luckily we have over 150 years worth of lithium and we will probably come up with other chemistries that don't require it.
>>
>> 150 isn't much more than 47.
>
> 150 is ~3 times 47 and in that time we can come up with alternates such as below.

Since the figures are estimates, you can't say 3x.

>> > The other alkali metals are good candidates for use instead of lithium. Sodium in particular is plentiful and very easy to get.
>> >
>> > Many EV car companies are already using Lithium iron phosphate cathodes to avoid the need for cobalt and nickel.
>>
>> But they still need that Lithium that kills the minors.
>
> Lithium does not kill minors.

It does. It's very toxic to mine.

> You are probably referring to cobalt mining.

No.

> Recent chemistry changes for lithium batteries either use less cobalt or in the case of Tesla half of the cars don't use any cobalt at all. Other manufacturers are making similar changes.
>
> Oil mining is not danger free and thousands die in oil extraction and millions due to pollution.

Less than Lithium.

On Sun, 29 May 2022 03:46:54 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 9:17:08 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 17:50:08 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> > On Sun, 29 May 2022 01:35:23 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 16:49:59 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> > >> On Sun, 29 May 2022 00:02:26 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:46:31 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> > >> >> On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:23:09 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:10:26 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
>> > >> >> >> Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
>> > >> >> >> fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > Then the BMS is not doing it's job. Proper BMS should monitor each cell and alarm if they overheat.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Which means lots of tiny cells means more monitoring.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > No. A group of about 30-40 cells are connected in parallel. They are then monitored as if they were single larger cell as they all have the same voltage.
>> > >> So one of those 30-40 cells shorts out, then what? It's getting fucking hot with the other 29-39 cells rapidly charging it, and there's no sensor on it? The other 29-39 look just fine, all is well, oops driver dead in a fireball.
>> > >
>> > > In the case of Tesla they implement the bond wire from the cell to the common connection asa fusible link to protect against that eventuality.
>> > >
>> > > I expect Rivian has a similar feature.
>> > >
>> > > What actually happens is that most shorting failures occur within the body of the cell and the short itself gets cleared in a similar fashion to what happens in plastic film capacitors when a breakdown occurs. This would also apply to larger format cells.
>> > Tell that to Rochard Hammond.
>> And to Ford Explorer owners.
>
> Some time back Larkin pointed out, there is a huge amount of energy in the fuel storage of autos. While some people get upset by the 50 to 100 kWh stored in a BEV battery, there are up to TEN times that much energy held in a gas or diesel tank, 1 MWh! Yeah, as much as 400 kg of TNT.

If that is true, petrol cars should travel ten times further than electric.

On 05/29/2022 07:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Mon, 23 May 2022 03:14:03 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>
>> On 05/22/2022 11:02 AM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 09:50:38 UTC-7,
>>> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> ...
>>>>> Proven reserve is a function of oil price. That chart was drawn
>>>>> when oil price was around $70. At $110 oil, there are lots more oil
>>>>> reserve now.
>>>> There's a lot of area and depth left to explore.
>>>> --
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Yes, but the same arguments apply to the reserves of Lithium as there
>>> are at least a few hundred billion tons either as deposits or in the
>>> oceans.
>>>
>>> As the technology of cars and mining evolves and the financial
>>> incentives stimulate exploration and development more is likely to be
>>> discovered or alternatives found. Probably enough for billions of cars.
>>>
>>> kw
>>>
>>
>> Will there be oil enough for billions of tires or to create the
>> plastics that are a large component of modern cars? Or are you trying to
>> put bandaids on an unsustainable system to eke out a few more decades?
>
> Who cares, it'll be fun when we go back to riding on horseback.

Plenty of horse around here acting as lawn decorations. Might as well
put them to work.

On 05/29/2022 09:30 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Wed, 25 May 2022 02:10:55 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>
>> On 05/24/2022 02:15 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 03:55:22 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 05/16/2022 11:58 AM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, 15 May 2022 at 22:25:13 UTC-7, rbowman wrote:
>>>>>> On 05/15/2022 02:22 PM, ke...@kwdes...com wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> My 1986 F150 doesn't need a new engine. Do you really think a
>>>>>> battery is
>>>>>> going to last 36 years?
>>>>>
>>>>> Probably not - but the great majority of conventional vehicles don't
>>>>> last that long either. The average lifetime of cars in the US is
>>>>> about 15 years.
>>>>>
>>>>> Accident damage or some major failure (such as engine!) often results
>>>>> in a costly repair that causes it to be scrapped.
>>>>>
>>>>> My last BMW was a great car until it was about 8 years old when
>>>>> failures started to become annoying and expensive.
>>>>>
>>>>> kw
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My Audi became annoying long before that. Admittedly it was a 100LS and
>>>> Volkswagen hadn't figured out front engine, front wheel drive, water
>>>> cooled vehicles yet.
>>>
>>> I have found nothing but good things to say about Audis. Although they
>>> are just VWs with a higher price tag.
>>
>>
>> One annoyance was the plug wires. At around 15k miles the car wouldn't
>> start. It didn't run rough or exhibit any problems until the day it
>> wouldn't go. I assumed an over zealous computer decided the wires were
>> out of spec. I always carried spares.
>>
>> Then there was the day the wipers wouldn't turn off. I was in the middle
>> of nowhere and had to call the shop to find which relay to pull.
>>
>> The finish had problems and the transaxles had problems eventually. My
>> wife got the Audi when we split and she traded it in on a Rabbit and got
>> almost nothing for it.
>>
>> It certainly wasn't the car's fault but it wasn't geared to cruise at 55
>> when yet another idiot president passed a national speed limit.
>
> Please don't tell me you agree with speed limits.

Not particularly but for the first year or so the cops were a real pain
in the ass with the 55 mph limit in the east. They'd even set up rolling
roadblocks to keep people honest. There was also gas rationing in effect
which tended to make you more conscious of fuel consumption.

Eventually it got back to normal.

On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 12:08:11 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sun, 29 May 2022 03:46:54 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 9:17:08 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> >> On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 17:50:08 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> > On Sun, 29 May 2022 01:35:23 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 16:49:59 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> > >> On Sun, 29 May 2022 00:02:26 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:46:31 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> > >> >> On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:23:09 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:10:26 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
> >> > >> >> >> Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
> >> > >> >> >> fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> > Then the BMS is not doing it's job. Proper BMS should monitor each cell and alarm if they overheat.
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> Which means lots of tiny cells means more monitoring.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > No. A group of about 30-40 cells are connected in parallel. They are then monitored as if they were single larger cell as they all have the same voltage.
> >> > >> So one of those 30-40 cells shorts out, then what? It's getting fucking hot with the other 29-39 cells rapidly charging it, and there's no sensor on it? The other 29-39 look just fine, all is well, oops driver dead in a fireball.
> >> > >
> >> > > In the case of Tesla they implement the bond wire from the cell to the common connection asa fusible link to protect against that eventuality..
> >> > >
> >> > > I expect Rivian has a similar feature.
> >> > >
> >> > > What actually happens is that most shorting failures occur within the body of the cell and the short itself gets cleared in a similar fashion to what happens in plastic film capacitors when a breakdown occurs. This would also apply to larger format cells.
> >> > Tell that to Rochard Hammond.
> >> And to Ford Explorer owners.
> >
> > Some time back Larkin pointed out, there is a huge amount of energy in the fuel storage of autos. While some people get upset by the 50 to 100 kWh stored in a BEV battery, there are up to TEN times that much energy held in a gas or diesel tank, 1 MWh! Yeah, as much as 400 kg of TNT.
> If that is true, petrol cars should travel ten times further than electric.

If you could actually get all the energy to move the car, then yeah. But the efficiency of an ICE Is so horrible, it gets maybe a quarter of the energy turned into movement.

Do a little math and show me wrong. Use the massive gas tanks that are being discussed for the 600 mile range vehicles. You do know how to do math, right?

--

Rick C.

+-++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 21:07:16 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sun, 29 May 2022 10:48:36 +0100, ke...@kjw.com <ke...@kjw.com> wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 18:41:25 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:09:05 +0100, ke...@kjw.com <ke...@kjw.com> wrote:
> >> > On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 10:02:46 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> > ...
> >> >> The amount of Lithium required to run every single car in the world is enormous. It's a rare element. Batteries need to be made of something else. Preferably something that doesn't quadruple the cost of the vehicle.
> >> > ...
> >> >
> >> > The amount of oil required to run every single car in the world is enormous. Oil is rare. We only have about 47 years left at current consumption rates.
> >> >
> >> > Luckily we have over 150 years worth of lithium and we will probably come up with other chemistries that don't require it.
> >>
> >> 150 isn't much more than 47.
> >
> > 150 is ~3 times 47 and in that time we can come up with alternates such as below.
> Since the figures are estimates, you can't say 3x.

I said "~3" using a tilde character to mean approximately

> >> > The other alkali metals are good candidates for use instead of lithium. Sodium in particular is plentiful and very easy to get.
> >> >
> >> > Many EV car companies are already using Lithium iron phosphate cathodes to avoid the need for cobalt and nickel.
> >>
> >> But they still need that Lithium that kills the minors.
> >
> > Lithium does not kill minors.
> It does. It's very toxic to mine.

You said "minors" meaning young people, nothing about mining.

And most Lithium is "mined" using brine extraction, it does not involve digging holes.

> > You are probably referring to cobalt mining.
> No.
> > Recent chemistry changes for lithium batteries either use less cobalt or in the case of Tesla half of the cars don't use any cobalt at all. Other manufacturers are making similar changes.
> >
> > Oil mining is not danger free and thousands die in oil extraction and millions due to pollution.
> Less than Lithium.

Citation please. Oil extraction in the US alone kills a couple of thousand people a year.

kw

On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 6:41:25 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:09:05 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

> > Many EV car companies are already using Lithium iron phosphate cathodes to avoid the need for cobalt and nickel.
>
> But they still need that Lithium that kills the minors.

Don't be silly; the major danger to miners is the dump truck; accidents
happen.

On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 5:42:28 PM UTC-4, whit3rd wrote:
> On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 6:41:25 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> > On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:09:05 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
>
> > > Many EV car companies are already using Lithium iron phosphate cathodes to avoid the need for cobalt and nickel.
> >
> > But they still need that Lithium that kills the minors.
> Don't be silly; the major danger to miners is the dump truck; accidents
> happen.

Has he really been talking about miners all this time? I thought he was messing around like Jan would do.

--

Rick C.

+-+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Wed, 25 May 2022 15:05:58 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 3:45:20 PM UTC-4, RichD wrote:
>> On May 20, John Doe wrote:
>> >>> They want to cover the Mojave desert with solar panels.
>> >>> how's that going to affect the earth's albedo? The solar energy
>> >>> currently bounced out to Mars, is going to stay earthbound.... drive
>> >>> your car and coffeemaker... and at the end of the day... global
>> >>> warming, hello!
>> >
>> > Interesting point. Doesn't apply to something like solar roofing panels,
>> > since that heat goes into the surrounding area if the sunlight isn't
>> > converted into electricity. Reflective roofing panels would be rough on
>> > aircraft.
>> >
>> >>> The fourth law of thermodynamics: in the long run, energy efficiency
>> >>> is zero, everything thermalizes -
>> >
>> >> I will say that it is clear you don't understand what global warming is
>> >> about. It has nothing to do with the efficiency of the energy
>> >> conversions required to provide power. It is about the CO2 released in
>> >> the process.
>> Let's find salvation in windmills.
>>
>> Questions:
>> How much CO2 is released during the construction of the concrete
>> foundation of the apparatus?
>> How many Joules does the windmill generate, in its lifetime?
>> How much CO2 is spewed by the burning of petroleum and gas,
>> to produce the same quantity of energy?
>
> You count the CO2 produced in the construction of the windmills, but not the carbon produced in the construction of the coal/gas plant, not the carbon released during the drilling, mining, transportation and refining of fossil fuels. There's no small amount of carbon released to get the fossil fuel from the ground to the facility that burns it. Why only count the burning of the fossil fuel itself? That's like only counting the mass of the payload in figuring the the fuel needed to achieve orbit, ignoring the fuel required to get the various stages of rockets off the ground.
>
>
>> If the net CO2 footprint of the hydrocarbons is greater than the windmill,
>> what is the temperature increase due to that extra CO2?
>> What is the $$ higher operational cost of the windmill, compared to hydrocarbons?
>> How much is the reduction in warming worth? i.e. what price are you
>> willing to pay, for that expected reduction?
>
> Price to pay for renewables compared to fossil fuels? Isn't that a negative number at this point? The cost of renewable energy is dropping while fossil fuel costs continue to climb.
>
>
>> It's notable that the econazis never address these fundamental questions,
>> don't even acknowledge them, which overload their brains, and forbidden
>> by the Thought Police.
>
> Of course those who promote renewable energy address all the questions. You just aren't listening. I don't see you attempting to answer any of the questions you've asked. I take it you've found you don't like the answers?

I want one question answered. Why didn't the world end when that CO2 was in the air before that coal and oil was made?

On Mon, 23 May 2022 20:45:16 +0100, RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On May 20, John Doe wrote:
>>>> They want to cover the Mojave desert with solar panels.
>>>> how's that going to affect the earth's albedo? The solar energy
>>>> currently bounced out to Mars, is going to stay earthbound.... drive
>>>> your car and coffeemaker... and at the end of the day... global
>>>> warming, hello!
>>
>> Interesting point. Doesn't apply to something like solar roofing panels,
>> since that heat goes into the surrounding area if the sunlight isn't
>> converted into electricity. Reflective roofing panels would be rough on
>> aircraft.
>>
>>>> The fourth law of thermodynamics: in the long run, energy efficiency
>>>> is zero, everything thermalizes -
>>
>>> I will say that it is clear you don't understand what global warming is
>>> about. It has nothing to do with the efficiency of the energy
>>> conversions required to provide power. It is about the CO2 released in
>>> the process.
>
> Let's find salvation in windmills.
>
> Questions:
> How much CO2 is released during the construction of the concrete
> foundation of the apparatus?
> How many Joules does the windmill generate, in its lifetime?
> How much CO2 is spewed by the burning of petroleum and gas,
> to produce the same quantity of energy?
>
> If the net CO2 footprint of the hydrocarbons is greater than the windmill,
> what is the temperature increase due to that extra CO2?
> What is the $$ higher operational cost of the windmill, compared to hydrocarbons?
> How much is the reduction in warming worth? i.e. what price are you
> willing to pay, for that expected reduction?
>
> It's notable that the econazis never address these fundamental questions,
> don't even acknowledge them, which overload their brains, and forbidden
> by the Thought Police.

It doesn't really matter what the environMENTALists come up with, we will burn all the fossil fuels. They can't stop us. They will run out before we stop using them.

On Sun, 22 May 2022 15:47:07 +0100, Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

>> You won't get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.
>
> My 10 years old Leaf battery is still 60% usable after 80,000 miles. Mine is outside the "no battery" range.

80K miles is not much at all. Tell me how it fairs after a typical lifetime of a petrol car.

On Tue, 24 May 2022 18:08:35 +0100, Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:48:51 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:02:30 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
>> <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 8:30:22 PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
>> >> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:47:12 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
>> >> > > You won't get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.
>> >> > My 10 years old Leaf battery is still 60% usable after 80,000 miles. Mine is outside the "no battery" range.
>> >> WOW! That means your range to total discharge is a grand FORTY FOUR MILES (which you don't dare use, so 30 miles is more realistic)!! Your trips will have to be within a 15 mile radius. The cost to replace the battery is roughly $5k, more than the car is worth.
>> >
>> >I have another 10kwh battery siting in the car, connected to the OBC (On Board Charger) output. Still trying to figure out how to trick the OBC to enable the output. Look like i need to build a dummy self charger, which is charging from the vehicle battery, but pumping energy from the auxiliary battery.
>> >
>> >I have spend around $1k for parts so far.
>> That may be a fun hobby, but it doesn't sound like sensible transportation.
>
> 40 miles are enough 90% of the time. For long distance, I can stuff extra batteries in. I think i can stuff in 30 to 50 kwhr eventually.
>
> EVs are not for everyone. EV/ICE will have to co-exist.

Fuck all people would be happy with 40 miles. I could cycle that distance. Cars should do hundreds of miles.

On Wed, 25 May 2022 05:28:42 +0100, Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:02:09 PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 10:08:39 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:48:51 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>> > > On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:02:30 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
>> > > <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 8:30:22 PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
>> > > >> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:47:12 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
>> > > >> > > You won't get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.
>> > > >> > My 10 years old Leaf battery is still 60% usable after 80,000 miles. Mine is outside the "no battery" range.
>> > > >> WOW! That means your range to total discharge is a grand FORTY FOUR MILES (which you don't dare use, so 30 miles is more realistic)!! Your trips will have to be within a 15 mile radius. The cost to replace the battery is roughly $5k, more than the car is worth.
>> > > >
>> > > >I have another 10kwh battery siting in the car, connected to the OBC (On Board Charger) output. Still trying to figure out how to trick the OBC to enable the output. Look like i need to build a dummy self charger, which is charging from the vehicle battery, but pumping energy from the auxiliary battery.
>> > > >
>> > > >I have spend around $1k for parts so far.
>> > > That may be a fun hobby, but it doesn't sound like sensible transportation.
>> > 40 miles are enough 90% of the time. For long distance, I can stuff extra batteries in. I think i can stuff in 30 to 50 kwhr eventually.
>> >
>> > EVs are not for everyone. EV/ICE will have to co-exist.
>> As I pointed out, you can't depend upon the range to exhaustion. What happens if you only get 39 miles? Pushing that car even one mile would be a good feat for the Strongest Man Contest.
>
> I got towing service, or just to jump charge from another vehicle. Charging from a good 12V source gets 2 to 3 miles per hour.

You want to drive at 2.5 miles per hour? I could run past you.

On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:38:35 +0100, Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:10:01 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 1:08:39 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:48:51 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>> > > On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:02:30 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
>> > > <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 8:30:22 PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
>> > > >> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:47:12 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
>> > > >> > > You won't get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.
>> > > >> > My 10 years old Leaf battery is still 60% usable after 80,000 miles. Mine is outside the "no battery" range.
>> > > >> WOW! That means your range to total discharge is a grand FORTY FOUR MILES (which you don't dare use, so 30 miles is more realistic)!! Your trips will have to be within a 15 mile radius. The cost to replace the battery is roughly $5k, more than the car is worth.
>> > > >
>> > > >I have another 10kwh battery siting in the car, connected to the OBC (On Board Charger) output. Still trying to figure out how to trick the OBC to enable the output. Look like i need to build a dummy self charger, which is charging from the vehicle battery, but pumping energy from the auxiliary battery.
>> > > >
>> > > >I have spend around $1k for parts so far.
>> > > That may be a fun hobby, but it doesn't sound like sensible transportation.
>> > 40 miles are enough 90% of the time. For long distance, I can stuff extra batteries in. I think i can stuff in 30 to 50 kwhr eventually.
>> >
>> > EVs are not for everyone. EV/ICE will have to co-exist.
>> LOL!!! What you drive is a DIY BEV. No one else on earth, with any sense at least, is doing what you are doing. Meanwhile, literally millions of BEVs are sold each year and the numbers are rising exponentially for now.
>
> No really, there are many Leaf owners upgrading the battery, usually with the newer 40kwh or 65kwh donors, as well as discrete wired batteries. However, having more than 24kwh for the Gen 1 Leaf requires CAN bridge mod and the existing wiring might not handle the current as well. I will need custom OBC/DC spiller to charge the auxiliary battery separately. It's also needed for CCS charging port on the Leaf.

The car should work without me fucking about with the wiring, this is pitiful.

On Wed, 25 May 2022 21:29:06 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, 25 May 2022 at 12:19:15 UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
> ...
>> Your statement: "A waning battery takes more juice to charge and gets you less output" is ludicrous.
>
> It's not ludicrous - but it is not of great significance with Li-ion batteries.

Bullshit. I put the same juice into an old battery and get half the power out. The rest just heats the room.

On Tue, 24 May 2022 22:13:36 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, 24 May 2022 at 13:15:34 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> ...
>> > Probably not - but the great majority of conventional vehicles don't last that long either. The average lifetime of cars in the US is about 15 years.
>>
>> Then the US must keep on crashing them. In the UK we last 20 years.
> ...
> Not according to this.
>
> "The average age of a car at scrappage in 2015 reached 13.9 years"
>
> https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/sustainability/average-vehicle-age/

Do you believe everything you read? My car is 20 years old. I have no intention of scrapping it for another few years.

On Wed, 25 May 2022 15:15:57 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 5:13:40 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 24 May 2022 at 13:15:34 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> > ...
>> > > Probably not - but the great majority of conventional vehicles don't last that long either. The average lifetime of cars in the US is about 15 years.
>> >
>> > Then the US must keep on crashing them. In the UK we last 20 years.
>> ...
>> Not according to this.
>>
>> "The average age of a car at scrappage in 2015 reached 13.9 years"
>>
>> https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/sustainability/average-vehicle-age/
>
> Averages are very poor numbers to use for this. Much more realistic is the median. A car can only be scrapped at 0 years at a minimum, while there is no maximum. If half the cars are toast after, say 12 years, it would only take a few reaching 20 years plus, to push the average to 15 years.
>
> As to the life of the battery, Tesla guarantees the batteries to 8 years. How many engines or transmissions are warrantied to 8 years?

Tesla!? You gotta be kidding me. Those are ludicrous prices. Now consider normal everyday electric cars.

On 2022-05-28, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 11:53:27 +0100, John Doe <always.look@message.header> wrote:
>
>> Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Who gives a shit about your 36 year old car? You seem to be obsessed
>>> with the idea that it means something. What do you think your 36 year
>>> old car means in the transition to BEVs that is taking place in the
>>> world?
>>
>> I wonder if it's taking place in Germany where electric power is a little
>> scarce these days thanks to them giving up nuclear and now being
>> sanctioned by Russia.
>
> It's the rest of the world doing the sanctioning, shooting themselves in the foot.
>
>>> You do realize this is happening, and there's pretty much nothing you
>>> can do to stop it, right? In 10 years, virtually every car sold in the
>>> US will be a BEV...
>>
>>> This is a reality that you may not prefer, but it is your future,
>>> whether you decide to like it or not.
>>
>> Sounds like wishful thinking. Seems diesel engines are doing well now. My
>> next-door neighbor bought a fancy diesel pickup truck six months ago. Gets
>> great gas mileage.
>>
>> Maybe when electric vehicles are made to use big batteries instead of a
>> billion small batteries...
>
> The batteries cost too much to make and there isn't enough electricity to charge them all.
>
> Why are they called BEVs? That's tautological. Of course batteries
> are electric. Can't we just call them electric cars?

It differentiates them from plug-in hybrids, fuel-cell vehicles, regular
hybrids, and externally powered electric vehicles.

--
Jasen.

On 2022-05-28, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:44:38 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:38:46 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:50:55 PM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>>> > On Tuesday, 17 May 2022 at 12:10:26 UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
>>> > > Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
>>> > > fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
>>> > That is not true. The car is very unlikely to explode if a single cell fails. Even if multiple cells fail an explosion is also extremely unlikely.
>>> >
>>> > From the NTHSA report - "Lithium-ion Battery Safety Issues for Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles".
>>> >
>>> > "Regarding the risk of electrochemical failure, the report concludes that the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels."
>>> > https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/12848-lithiumionsafetyhybrids_101217-v3-tag.pdf
>>> >
>>> > A cell can overheat under exceptional circumstances but a small cell may in actual fact be safer than larger ones as the energy of a single cell failure might be contained within its own steel container and not affect the rest of the battery to the point of failure. The fuse or other disconnect for the cell would electrically isolate the failed cell from the rest of the battery. If the cell breaches its own enclosure it could spread the failure to other cells.
>>> >
>>> > kw
>>> They can "anticipate" until the cows come home. What that boils down to is an uneducated guess. Until you have decades of data to analyze you are just blowing smoke. Just look at airline accidents; the B747 had decades of flight experience when TWA flight 800 exploded. And these planes undergo far more rigorous testing and evaluation than EVs do.
>>
>> You would seem to be blowing smoke as much as anyone. In the case of TWA flight 800, a fatal airliner accident due to design or construction issues is a very infrequent thing. These causes are much easier to minimize failure rates than the operational issues.
>>
>> The bottom line is lithium-ion batteries are proving to be very safe in BEVs.
>
> So why can't I post you some 18650 cells in the post?

UPS Airlines Flight 6, etc.

> Why does the Royal Mail ban batteries in the post?

they are chicken mostly.

If you follow the apropriate packing and labeling rules
you probably can send them.

--
Jasen.

On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 6:34:54 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:

> I want one question answered. Why didn't the world end when that CO2 was in the air before that coal and oil was made?

As far as oxygen-intolerant organisms were concerned, the onset of an oxygen atmosphere
WAS the end of the world. It ended several times, in several different ways.

On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 4:31:02 AM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:
> On 2022-05-28, Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 17 May 2022 11:53:27 +0100, John Doe <alway...@message.header> wrote:
> >
> >> Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Who gives a shit about your 36 year old car? You seem to be obsessed
> >>> with the idea that it means something. What do you think your 36 year
> >>> old car means in the transition to BEVs that is taking place in the
> >>> world?
> >>
> >> I wonder if it's taking place in Germany where electric power is a little
> >> scarce these days thanks to them giving up nuclear and now being
> >> sanctioned by Russia.
> >
> > It's the rest of the world doing the sanctioning, shooting themselves in the foot.
> >
> >>> You do realize this is happening, and there's pretty much nothing you
> >>> can do to stop it, right? In 10 years, virtually every car sold in the
> >>> US will be a BEV...
> >>
> >>> This is a reality that you may not prefer, but it is your future,
> >>> whether you decide to like it or not.
> >>
> >> Sounds like wishful thinking. Seems diesel engines are doing well now. My
> >> next-door neighbor bought a fancy diesel pickup truck six months ago. Gets
> >> great gas mileage.
> >>
> >> Maybe when electric vehicles are made to use big batteries instead of a
> >> billion small batteries...
> >
> > The batteries cost too much to make and there isn't enough electricity to charge them all.
> >
> > Why are they called BEVs? That's tautological. Of course batteries
> > are electric. Can't we just call them electric cars?
>
> It differentiates them from plug-in hybrids, fuel-cell vehicles, regular
> hybrids, and externally powered electric vehicles.

Sometimes it is interesting to attempt discussion with trolls. Other times it is just tiresome. Commander Kinky is more of a tiresome type. I'm curious if you think you are actually having a conversation and how you expect him to respond. Or maybe you know full well he will simply respond as any good troll and treat your post derisively, claiming you to be wrong no matter the facts.

I have not seen much evidence he is willing to accept any facts other than his own reality, particularly in this thread.

--

Rick C.

++--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Mon, 30 May 2022 07:14:31 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

> On 05/29/2022 09:30 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 02:10:55 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/24/2022 02:15 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 03:55:22 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 05/16/2022 11:58 AM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Sunday, 15 May 2022 at 22:25:13 UTC-7, rbowman wrote:
>>>>>>> On 05/15/2022 02:22 PM, ke...@kwdes...com wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My 1986 F150 doesn't need a new engine. Do you really think a
>>>>>>> battery is
>>>>>>> going to last 36 years?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Probably not - but the great majority of conventional vehicles don't
>>>>>> last that long either. The average lifetime of cars in the US is
>>>>>> about 15 years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Accident damage or some major failure (such as engine!) often results
>>>>>> in a costly repair that causes it to be scrapped.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My last BMW was a great car until it was about 8 years old when
>>>>>> failures started to become annoying and expensive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> kw
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My Audi became annoying long before that. Admittedly it was a 100LS and
>>>>> Volkswagen hadn't figured out front engine, front wheel drive, water
>>>>> cooled vehicles yet.
>>>>
>>>> I have found nothing but good things to say about Audis. Although they
>>>> are just VWs with a higher price tag.
>>>
>>>
>>> One annoyance was the plug wires. At around 15k miles the car wouldn't
>>> start. It didn't run rough or exhibit any problems until the day it
>>> wouldn't go. I assumed an over zealous computer decided the wires were
>>> out of spec. I always carried spares.
>>>
>>> Then there was the day the wipers wouldn't turn off. I was in the middle
>>> of nowhere and had to call the shop to find which relay to pull.
>>>
>>> The finish had problems and the transaxles had problems eventually. My
>>> wife got the Audi when we split and she traded it in on a Rabbit and got
>>> almost nothing for it.
>>>
>>> It certainly wasn't the car's fault but it wasn't geared to cruise at 55
>>> when yet another idiot president passed a national speed limit.
>>
>> Please don't tell me you agree with speed limits.
>
> Not particularly but for the first year or so the cops were a real pain
> in the ass with the 55 mph limit in the east. They'd even set up rolling
> roadblocks to keep people honest. There was also gas rationing in effect
> which tended to make you more conscious of fuel consumption.
>
> Eventually it got back to normal.

I got stopped 18 times in 5 years. Got let of half of those by talking nicely to the pig. Then I got a satnav which knows where they like to sit, and I got no stops in 20 years. That would be one nil to me!

On Mon, 30 May 2022 15:38:47 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 12:08:11 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 May 2022 03:46:54 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 9:17:08 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>> >> On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 17:50:08 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> > On Sun, 29 May 2022 01:35:23 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 16:49:59 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> > >> On Sun, 29 May 2022 00:02:26 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> > On Saturday, 28 May 2022 at 15:46:31 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> > >> >> On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:23:09 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > >> >>
>> >> > >> >> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:10:26 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
>> >> > >> >> >> Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
>> >> > >> >> >> fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
>> >> > >> >> >
>> >> > >> >> > Then the BMS is not doing it's job. Proper BMS should monitor each cell and alarm if they overheat.
>> >> > >> >>
>> >> > >> >> Which means lots of tiny cells means more monitoring.
>> >> > >> >
>> >> > >> > No. A group of about 30-40 cells are connected in parallel. They are then monitored as if they were single larger cell as they all have the same voltage.
>> >> > >> So one of those 30-40 cells shorts out, then what? It's getting fucking hot with the other 29-39 cells rapidly charging it, and there's no sensor on it? The other 29-39 look just fine, all is well, oops driver dead in a fireball.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > In the case of Tesla they implement the bond wire from the cell to the common connection asa fusible link to protect against that eventuality.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I expect Rivian has a similar feature.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > What actually happens is that most shorting failures occur within the body of the cell and the short itself gets cleared in a similar fashion to what happens in plastic film capacitors when a breakdown occurs. This would also apply to larger format cells.
>> >> > Tell that to Rochard Hammond.
>> >> And to Ford Explorer owners.
>> >
>> > Some time back Larkin pointed out, there is a huge amount of energy in the fuel storage of autos. While some people get upset by the 50 to 100 kWh stored in a BEV battery, there are up to TEN times that much energy held in a gas or diesel tank, 1 MWh! Yeah, as much as 400 kg of TNT.
>> If that is true, petrol cars should travel ten times further than electric.
>
> If you could actually get all the energy to move the car, then yeah. But the efficiency of an ICE Is so horrible, it gets maybe a quarter of the energy turned into movement.
>
> Do a little math and show me wrong. Use the massive gas tanks that are being discussed for the 600 mile range vehicles. You do know how to do math, right?

If electric cars are so efficient, why do they have such a shit range?