This thread has gone on way...way...way...tooooooo long.
I am tagging it as abuse.
Gentlemen...grow up.

No such thing as abuse in Usenet groups.  It will continue merrily until
it just dies due to lack of interest.  It might disappear from google
groups, however.

Dan
5J

On 5/22/22 13:47, Guy Acheson wrote:
> This thread has gone on way...way...way...tooooooo long.
> I am tagging it as abuse.
> Gentlemen...grow up.

Tom for f**k sake, please give up. It is clear to everyone but you who followed this thread (purely for entertainment I am sure) that you and John put words that Bob never wrote. He was talking about his club revenue, never about his own revenue. So move on! After all, you can’t argue with written text. It is all in the open. It is just painful to see you guys digging yourself deeper and deeper. Stick to the subject of motorgliders vs pure gliders advantage and disadvantage. This is more informative and productive.

Ramy

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:24:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:32:58 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Well, I've tried to stay out of this, but it's becoming ridiculous (it
> > IS RAS after all)...
> >
> > So, I copied the entire message and pasted it into a text file so that I
> > could search through it. I found the word "revenue" used five times in
> > the entire 12 pages in the text file and the only time I found the
> > string, "my revenue" was when Ol' Bob asked Mr. Fitch to show him where
> > he allegedly said it.
> >
> > So, please use the whole context of a phrase that you want to use
> > chastise someone. Otherwise, you're just calling names and we should
> > have stopped doing that by the third grade.
> >
> > Dan
> > 5J
> > On 5/21/22 14:46, 2G wrote:
> > > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 10:34:41 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 11:19:53 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > >>> Bob, I neither like nor dislike you, in fact I don’t think about you much at all. Your first post in this thread (one of many similar ones) may have been humorous, as was my first response. But by the third one you had descended into the same drivel, motorglider pilots lack the skill for cross country, aren’t Real Men, etc. That isn’t humorous, just false and insulting. Kinda like if I said you “purist” pilots require Viagra, because you can’t get it up without help.
> > >>>
> > >>> To then fault me for casting “dispersion” on you for merely repeating what you said is ironic. I know nothing of you or your club’s revenue, other than motorgliders are perceived as a threat to it (in your own words). You agenda you have made excruciatingly explicit. If you want to be liked, get a tow, smile smugly to yourself, and keep quiet about it. I will continue to completely discount any opinion you may have on motorglider cross country flight - and encourage others to do so - until you have gained at least some experience in them.
> > >>> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 5:01:33 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 9:40:51 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > >>>>> OK Bob, so now we have moved on from soaring and are arguing semantics. I’m on my boat, enroute to Alaska and really don’t have the time and bandwidth to keep this up. Ramy, I never called Bob greedy, and don’t think of him that way. He is however perfectly willing to cast derision and ridicule on a large class of his fellow pilots, repeatedly and without respite or subject knowledge.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The sentence we are apparently arguing the semantics of (on a soaring site) is:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> “A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket.”
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Can you point me to a single word in that sentence which is factually untrue? Surely you do not get a kickback from Schleicher or Schemp or Jonkers for every motorglider they sell? Now metaphorically, the club in that statement - and in Bob’s statement - is Bob’s pocket, or whoever is running the tow service, possessive nouns notwithstanding. Tows cannot contribute to the club or the operation unless the tow fees flow to the club or operation.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> This is all of course ridiculous. The ridiculousness started with Bob’s opening post, one of many tiresome ones on this subject. Get over it Bob. We know how you feel. We just don’t feel the same. You aren’t changing anyone’s mind.
> > >>>> Mr. Fitch, in all honesty my post are generated as humor, not attempting to change anyone's mind, and I certainly am qualified to cast my own opinions regarding the differences between MG and purist flights. What you and the choir have attempted to do is cast dispersion regarding revenue and my personal agenda. You should be very cognizant of your intentions, it is just your dislike for me that drives your agenda. I have motorglider friends, my very best friend has gone over to the dark side and we tease each other almost daily as he calls me from the sky telling me how much battery life he has remaining after launch and I reply with something like,"You Will Never Be Late For Dinner". Get a grip on things Mr. Fitch, life is too short and a few laughs will go a long way in helping you along the way. As I stated in the last line of the initial thread, Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you ever neeed a tow, come to Vero and fly. Old Bob, The Purist
> > >>>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 2:31:19 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 1:17:02 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > >>>>>>> Bob, you can't stop progress, no matter how hard you try. But it is good to see someone getting along with muskets, spats, dial telephone land lines, wind up watches, lava lamps, 3-on-the-column shifts, and string towed gliders. So my friend, come out here and take a flight - oh wait a minute, you'll need a tow plane and we are fresh out......
> > >>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:20:21 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.
> > >>>>>>>> Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in Georgia. now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the Gators or an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River.
> > >>>>>>>> Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less Christmas cards and save money on the postage.
> > >>>>>>>> As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
> > >>>>>>>> Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist
> > >>>>>> No word from Mr. Fitch?
> > >> Mr. Fitch, I certainly hope that you are enjoying the trip to Alaska and I hope that the boat doesn't develop a leak! You have once again skirted the issue that I stated that the motorglider was a threat to my revenue. I asked you to produce where I had stated that remark and even offered a deal that would require a penalty. You have continued to ignore the issue and not produce the facts. Me, on the other hand would have gladly gone away for 60 days as offered had I made the comments that you said that I did. Mr.. Fitch, my experience speaks for itself, as I stated I have flown many gliders, including motorgliders and I certainly know the difference between Purist flights and Motorglider flights, it's like apples and oranges, they aren't the same. I am glad that I have captured your imagination. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > Hey Not So Purist Bobby, here are your OWN words. You use the words "my revenue" whereas Jon clearly stated "your club's revenue":
> > >
> > > Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist
> > >
> > > Tom
> I clearly indicated that Jon used the words "your club's revenue", so if Not So Purist Bobby has a beef he should have read Jon's post more accurately, or at least read it.
>
> Tom

I would like to add one more thing to this discussion, to bring it back to the subject.
While I haven’t flown motorgliders myself, I fly with a lot of motorglider pilots. The vast majority fly way more conservatively than I do. I am willing to risk landout and expensive aero retrieve or Uber self retrieve, much more than they are willing to risk a relight. Honestly I have no logical explanation to this, but this is a fact. There are very few of them flying aggressively, and when they fly without motor, they fly equally aggressive.
So to Bob’s original point, I don’t agree that motorgliders fly differently or take any advantage of their motor. Now if I get a motorglider, then there may be a point to this discussion… I will sure use this option to explore further, fly from more places etc. how about coast to coast safari adventure? How come we only had 2 pilots trying it in the US all these years? All you retired motorglider pilots, can you imagine a better way to tour the US? Wife drives the motor home with the trailer while you fly from point to point. Why not?

Ramy

to On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 6:49:37 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> Tom for f**k sake, please give up. It is clear to everyone but you who followed this thread (purely for entertainment I am sure) that you and John put words that Bob never wrote. He was talking about his club revenue, never about his own revenue. So move on! After all, you can’t argue with written text. It is all in the open. It is just painful to see you guys digging yourself deeper and deeper. Stick to the subject of motorgliders vs pure gliders advantage and disadvantage. This is more informative and productive.
>
> Ramy
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:24:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:32:58 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > Well, I've tried to stay out of this, but it's becoming ridiculous (it
> > > IS RAS after all)...
> > >
> > > So, I copied the entire message and pasted it into a text file so that I
> > > could search through it. I found the word "revenue" used five times in
> > > the entire 12 pages in the text file and the only time I found the
> > > string, "my revenue" was when Ol' Bob asked Mr. Fitch to show him where
> > > he allegedly said it.
> > >
> > > So, please use the whole context of a phrase that you want to use
> > > chastise someone. Otherwise, you're just calling names and we should
> > > have stopped doing that by the third grade.
> > >
> > > Dan
> > > 5J
> > > On 5/21/22 14:46, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 10:34:41 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 11:19:53 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > >>> Bob, I neither like nor dislike you, in fact I don’t think about you much at all. Your first post in this thread (one of many similar ones) may have been humorous, as was my first response. But by the third one you had descended into the same drivel, motorglider pilots lack the skill for cross country, aren’t Real Men, etc. That isn’t humorous, just false and insulting. Kinda like if I said you “purist” pilots require Viagra, because you can’t get it up without help.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> To then fault me for casting “dispersion” on you for merely repeating what you said is ironic. I know nothing of you or your club’s revenue, other than motorgliders are perceived as a threat to it (in your own words). You agenda you have made excruciatingly explicit.. If you want to be liked, get a tow, smile smugly to yourself, and keep quiet about it. I will continue to completely discount any opinion you may have on motorglider cross country flight - and encourage others to do so - until you have gained at least some experience in them.
> > > >>> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 5:01:33 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 9:40:51 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > >>>>> OK Bob, so now we have moved on from soaring and are arguing semantics. I’m on my boat, enroute to Alaska and really don’t have the time and bandwidth to keep this up. Ramy, I never called Bob greedy, and don’t think of him that way. He is however perfectly willing to cast derision and ridicule on a large class of his fellow pilots, repeatedly and without respite or subject knowledge.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> The sentence we are apparently arguing the semantics of (on a soaring site) is:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> “A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket.”
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Can you point me to a single word in that sentence which is factually untrue? Surely you do not get a kickback from Schleicher or Schemp or Jonkers for every motorglider they sell? Now metaphorically, the club in that statement - and in Bob’s statement - is Bob’s pocket, or whoever is running the tow service, possessive nouns notwithstanding. Tows cannot contribute to the club or the operation unless the tow fees flow to the club or operation.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> This is all of course ridiculous. The ridiculousness started with Bob’s opening post, one of many tiresome ones on this subject. Get over it Bob. We know how you feel. We just don’t feel the same. You aren’t changing anyone’s mind.
> > > >>>> Mr. Fitch, in all honesty my post are generated as humor, not attempting to change anyone's mind, and I certainly am qualified to cast my own opinions regarding the differences between MG and purist flights. What you and the choir have attempted to do is cast dispersion regarding revenue and my personal agenda. You should be very cognizant of your intentions, it is just your dislike for me that drives your agenda. I have motorglider friends, my very best friend has gone over to the dark side and we tease each other almost daily as he calls me from the sky telling me how much battery life he has remaining after launch and I reply with something like,"You Will Never Be Late For Dinner". Get a grip on things Mr. Fitch, life is too short and a few laughs will go a long way in helping you along the way. As I stated in the last line of the initial thread, Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you ever neeed a tow, come to Vero and fly. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > >>>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 2:31:19 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>>>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 1:17:02 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > >>>>>>> Bob, you can't stop progress, no matter how hard you try. But it is good to see someone getting along with muskets, spats, dial telephone land lines, wind up watches, lava lamps, 3-on-the-column shifts, and string towed gliders. So my friend, come out here and take a flight - oh wait a minute, you'll need a tow plane and we are fresh out......
> > > >>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:20:21 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>> Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.
> > > >>>>>>>> Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in Georgia. now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the Gators or an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River.
> > > >>>>>>>> Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less Christmas cards and save money on the postage.
> > > >>>>>>>> As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
> > > >>>>>>>> Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > >>>>>> No word from Mr. Fitch?
> > > >> Mr. Fitch, I certainly hope that you are enjoying the trip to Alaska and I hope that the boat doesn't develop a leak! You have once again skirted the issue that I stated that the motorglider was a threat to my revenue. I asked you to produce where I had stated that remark and even offered a deal that would require a penalty. You have continued to ignore the issue and not produce the facts. Me, on the other hand would have gladly gone away for 60 days as offered had I made the comments that you said that I did. Mr. Fitch, my experience speaks for itself, as I stated I have flown many gliders, including motorgliders and I certainly know the difference between Purist flights and Motorglider flights, it's like apples and oranges, they aren't the same. I am glad that I have captured your imagination. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > Hey Not So Purist Bobby, here are your OWN words. You use the words "my revenue" whereas Jon clearly stated "your club's revenue":
> > > >
> > > > Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> > I clearly indicated that Jon used the words "your club's revenue", so if Not So Purist Bobby has a beef he should have read Jon's post more accurately, or at least read it.
> >
> > Tom

Right on, Ramy!

1. Let’s let this post die.

2. Yes, it seems to me also that many, maybe most motor glider pilots fly much more conservatively than they need to, and I admit (with some embarrassment) that I am one of these. I am NOT talking about forging off over unlandable territory (depending solely on an engine start to save you, yikes!), but about just what Ramy refers to - use of the exploration capability inherent in self-launch and sustainer functions. Your comments and your example, Ramy, are inspiring me to reach out more in my flying…. And I have a wife-approved motor home on order, hmmmmm, coast to coast in my future???

3. If anyone wants to call such exploration flying “impure” soaring, go ahead, I (and many, many others) do not care.

4. There is a separate thread on the subject of motorgliders vs pure gliders advantage and disadvantage, which is an attempt to branch a discussion off in a more informative and productive direction. Let’s switch over to that thread for further discussion on that subject.

Cheers,
Jim J6

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:04:41 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> I would like to add one more thing to this discussion, to bring it back to the subject.
> While I haven’t flown motorgliders myself, I fly with a lot of motorglider pilots. The vast majority fly way more conservatively than I do. I am willing to risk landout and expensive aero retrieve or Uber self retrieve, much more than they are willing to risk a relight. Honestly I have no logical explanation to this, but this is a fact. There are very few of them flying aggressively, and when they fly without motor, they fly equally aggressive.
> So to Bob’s original point, I don’t agree that motorgliders fly differently or take any advantage of their motor. Now if I get a motorglider, then there may be a point to this discussion… I will sure use this option to explore further, fly from more places etc. how about coast to coast safari adventure? How come we only had 2 pilots trying it in the US all these years? All you retired motorglider pilots, can you imagine a better way to tour the US? Wife drives the motor home with the trailer while you fly from point to point. Why not?
>
> Ramy
> to On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 6:49:37 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > Tom for f**k sake, please give up. It is clear to everyone but you who followed this thread (purely for entertainment I am sure) that you and John put words that Bob never wrote. He was talking about his club revenue, never about his own revenue. So move on! After all, you can’t argue with written text. It is all in the open. It is just painful to see you guys digging yourself deeper and deeper. Stick to the subject of motorgliders vs pure gliders advantage and disadvantage. This is more informative and productive.
> >
> > Ramy

If you have a partner or really good crew you can auto-tow launch
yourself across the country.  It's amazingly practical in the southwest,
though I don't know how well one would do in the greener parts of the
country.
Dan
5J
On 5/22/22 20:04, Ramy wrote:
> I would like to add one more thing to this discussion, to bring it back to the subject.
> While I haven’t flown motorgliders myself, I fly with a lot of motorglider pilots. The vast majority fly way more conservatively than I do. I am willing to risk landout and expensive aero retrieve or Uber self retrieve, much more than they are willing to risk a relight. Honestly I have no logical explanation to this, but this is a fact. There are very few of them flying aggressively, and when they fly without motor, they fly equally aggressive.
> So to Bob’s original point, I don’t agree that motorgliders fly differently or take any advantage of their motor. Now if I get a motorglider, then there may be a point to this discussion… I will sure use this option to explore further, fly from more places etc. how about coast to coast safari adventure? How come we only had 2 pilots trying it in the US all these years? All you retired motorglider pilots, can you imagine a better way to tour the US? Wife drives the motor home with the trailer while you fly from point to point. Why not?
>
> Ramy
>
> to On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 6:49:37 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
>> Tom for f**k sake, please give up. It is clear to everyone but you who followed this thread (purely for entertainment I am sure) that you and John put words that Bob never wrote. He was talking about his club revenue, never about his own revenue. So move on! After all, you can’t argue with written text. It is all in the open. It is just painful to see you guys digging yourself deeper and deeper. Stick to the subject of motorgliders vs pure gliders advantage and disadvantage. This is more informative and productive.
>>
>> Ramy
>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:24:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:32:58 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>> Well, I've tried to stay out of this, but it's becoming ridiculous (it
>>>> IS RAS after all)...
>>>>
>>>> So, I copied the entire message and pasted it into a text file so that I
>>>> could search through it. I found the word "revenue" used five times in
>>>> the entire 12 pages in the text file and the only time I found the
>>>> string, "my revenue" was when Ol' Bob asked Mr. Fitch to show him where
>>>> he allegedly said it.
>>>>
>>>> So, please use the whole context of a phrase that you want to use
>>>> chastise someone. Otherwise, you're just calling names and we should
>>>> have stopped doing that by the third grade.
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>> 5J
>>>> On 5/21/22 14:46, 2G wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 10:34:41 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 11:19:53 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
>>>>>>> Bob, I neither like nor dislike you, in fact I don’t think about you much at all. Your first post in this thread (one of many similar ones) may have been humorous, as was my first response. But by the third one you had descended into the same drivel, motorglider pilots lack the skill for cross country, aren’t Real Men, etc. That isn’t humorous, just false and insulting. Kinda like if I said you “purist” pilots require Viagra, because you can’t get it up without help.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To then fault me for casting “dispersion” on you for merely repeating what you said is ironic. I know nothing of you or your club’s revenue, other than motorgliders are perceived as a threat to it (in your own words). You agenda you have made excruciatingly explicit. If you want to be liked, get a tow, smile smugly to yourself, and keep quiet about it. I will continue to completely discount any opinion you may have on motorglider cross country flight - and encourage others to do so - until you have gained at least some experience in them.
>>>>>>> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 5:01:33 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 9:40:51 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
>>>>>>>>> OK Bob, so now we have moved on from soaring and are arguing semantics. I’m on my boat, enroute to Alaska and really don’t have the time and bandwidth to keep this up. Ramy, I never called Bob greedy, and don’t think of him that way. He is however perfectly willing to cast derision and ridicule on a large class of his fellow pilots, repeatedly and without respite or subject knowledge.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The sentence we are apparently arguing the semantics of (on a soaring site) is:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> “A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket.”
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Can you point me to a single word in that sentence which is factually untrue? Surely you do not get a kickback from Schleicher or Schemp or Jonkers for every motorglider they sell? Now metaphorically, the club in that statement - and in Bob’s statement - is Bob’s pocket, or whoever is running the tow service, possessive nouns notwithstanding. Tows cannot contribute to the club or the operation unless the tow fees flow to the club or operation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is all of course ridiculous. The ridiculousness started with Bob’s opening post, one of many tiresome ones on this subject. Get over it Bob. We know how you feel. We just don’t feel the same. You aren’t changing anyone’s mind.
>>>>>>>> Mr. Fitch, in all honesty my post are generated as humor, not attempting to change anyone's mind, and I certainly am qualified to cast my own opinions regarding the differences between MG and purist flights. What you and the choir have attempted to do is cast dispersion regarding revenue and my personal agenda. You should be very cognizant of your intentions, it is just your dislike for me that drives your agenda. I have motorglider friends, my very best friend has gone over to the dark side and we tease each other almost daily as he calls me from the sky telling me how much battery life he has remaining after launch and I reply with something like,"You Will Never Be Late For Dinner". Get a grip on things Mr. Fitch, life is too short and a few laughs will go a long way in helping you along the way. As I stated in the last line of the initial thread, Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you ever neeed a tow, come to Vero and fly. Old Bob, The Purist
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 2:31:19 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 1:17:02 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Bob, you can't stop progress, no matter how hard you try. But it is good to see someone getting along with muskets, spats, dial telephone land lines, wind up watches, lava lamps, 3-on-the-column shifts, and string towed gliders. So my friend, come out here and take a flight - oh wait a minute, you'll need a tow plane and we are fresh out......
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:20:21 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in Georgia. now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the Gators or an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less Christmas cards and save money on the postage.
>>>>>>>>>>>> As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist
>>>>>>>>>> No word from Mr. Fitch?
>>>>>> Mr. Fitch, I certainly hope that you are enjoying the trip to Alaska and I hope that the boat doesn't develop a leak! You have once again skirted the issue that I stated that the motorglider was a threat to my revenue. I asked you to produce where I had stated that remark and even offered a deal that would require a penalty. You have continued to ignore the issue and not produce the facts. Me, on the other hand would have gladly gone away for 60 days as offered had I made the comments that you said that I did. Mr. Fitch, my experience speaks for itself, as I stated I have flown many gliders, including motorgliders and I certainly know the difference between Purist flights and Motorglider flights, it's like apples and oranges, they aren't the same. I am glad that I have captured your imagination. Old Bob, The Purist
>>>>> Hey Not So Purist Bobby, here are your OWN words. You use the words "my revenue" whereas Jon clearly stated "your club's revenue":
>>>>>
>>>>> Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom
>>> I clearly indicated that Jon used the words "your club's revenue", so if Not So Purist Bobby has a beef he should have read Jon's post more accurately, or at least read it.
>>>
>>> Tom

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:04:41 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> I would like to add one more thing to this discussion, to bring it back to the subject.
> While I haven’t flown motorgliders myself, I fly with a lot of motorglider pilots. The vast majority fly way more conservatively than I do. I am willing to risk landout and expensive aero retrieve or Uber self retrieve, much more than they are willing to risk a relight. Honestly I have no logical explanation to this, but this is a fact. There are very few of them flying aggressively, and when they fly without motor, they fly equally aggressive.
> So to Bob’s original point, I don’t agree that motorgliders fly differently or take any advantage of their motor. Now if I get a motorglider, then there may be a point to this discussion… I will sure use this option to explore further, fly from more places etc. how about coast to coast safari adventure? How come we only had 2 pilots trying it in the US all these years? All you retired motorglider pilots, can you imagine a better way to tour the US? Wife drives the motor home with the trailer while you fly from point to point. Why not?
>
> Ramy
> to On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 6:49:37 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > Tom for f**k sake, please give up. It is clear to everyone but you who followed this thread (purely for entertainment I am sure) that you and John put words that Bob never wrote. He was talking about his club revenue, never about his own revenue. So move on! After all, you can’t argue with written text. It is all in the open. It is just painful to see you guys digging yourself deeper and deeper. Stick to the subject of motorgliders vs pure gliders advantage and disadvantage. This is more informative and productive.
> >
> > Ramy
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:24:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:32:58 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > > Well, I've tried to stay out of this, but it's becoming ridiculous (it
> > > > IS RAS after all)...
> > > >
> > > > So, I copied the entire message and pasted it into a text file so that I
> > > > could search through it. I found the word "revenue" used five times in
> > > > the entire 12 pages in the text file and the only time I found the
> > > > string, "my revenue" was when Ol' Bob asked Mr. Fitch to show him where
> > > > he allegedly said it.
> > > >
> > > > So, please use the whole context of a phrase that you want to use
> > > > chastise someone. Otherwise, you're just calling names and we should
> > > > have stopped doing that by the third grade.
> > > >
> > > > Dan
> > > > 5J
> > > > On 5/21/22 14:46, 2G wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 10:34:41 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 11:19:53 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > >>> Bob, I neither like nor dislike you, in fact I don’t think about you much at all. Your first post in this thread (one of many similar ones) may have been humorous, as was my first response. But by the third one you had descended into the same drivel, motorglider pilots lack the skill for cross country, aren’t Real Men, etc. That isn’t humorous, just false and insulting. Kinda like if I said you “purist” pilots require Viagra, because you can’t get it up without help.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> To then fault me for casting “dispersion” on you for merely repeating what you said is ironic. I know nothing of you or your club’s revenue, other than motorgliders are perceived as a threat to it (in your own words). You agenda you have made excruciatingly explicit. If you want to be liked, get a tow, smile smugly to yourself, and keep quiet about it. I will continue to completely discount any opinion you may have on motorglider cross country flight - and encourage others to do so - until you have gained at least some experience in them.
> > > > >>> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 5:01:33 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > > >>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 9:40:51 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > >>>>> OK Bob, so now we have moved on from soaring and are arguing semantics. I’m on my boat, enroute to Alaska and really don’t have the time and bandwidth to keep this up. Ramy, I never called Bob greedy, and don’t think of him that way. He is however perfectly willing to cast derision and ridicule on a large class of his fellow pilots, repeatedly and without respite or subject knowledge.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> The sentence we are apparently arguing the semantics of (on a soaring site) is:
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> “A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket.”
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Can you point me to a single word in that sentence which is factually untrue? Surely you do not get a kickback from Schleicher or Schemp or Jonkers for every motorglider they sell? Now metaphorically, the club in that statement - and in Bob’s statement - is Bob’s pocket, or whoever is running the tow service, possessive nouns notwithstanding. Tows cannot contribute to the club or the operation unless the tow fees flow to the club or operation.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> This is all of course ridiculous. The ridiculousness started with Bob’s opening post, one of many tiresome ones on this subject. Get over it Bob. We know how you feel. We just don’t feel the same.. You aren’t changing anyone’s mind.
> > > > >>>> Mr. Fitch, in all honesty my post are generated as humor, not attempting to change anyone's mind, and I certainly am qualified to cast my own opinions regarding the differences between MG and purist flights. What you and the choir have attempted to do is cast dispersion regarding revenue and my personal agenda. You should be very cognizant of your intentions, it is just your dislike for me that drives your agenda. I have motorglider friends, my very best friend has gone over to the dark side and we tease each other almost daily as he calls me from the sky telling me how much battery life he has remaining after launch and I reply with something like,"You Will Never Be Late For Dinner". Get a grip on things Mr. Fitch, life is too short and a few laughs will go a long way in helping you along the way. As I stated in the last line of the initial thread, Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you ever neeed a tow, come to Vero and fly. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > >>>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 2:31:19 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > > >>>>>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 1:17:02 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>> Bob, you can't stop progress, no matter how hard you try. But it is good to see someone getting along with muskets, spats, dial telephone land lines, wind up watches, lava lamps, 3-on-the-column shifts, and string towed gliders. So my friend, come out here and take a flight - oh wait a minute, you'll need a tow plane and we are fresh out......
> > > > >>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:20:21 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>> Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.
> > > > >>>>>>>> Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in Georgia. now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the Gators or an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River.
> > > > >>>>>>>> Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less Christmas cards and save money on the postage.
> > > > >>>>>>>> As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
> > > > >>>>>>>> Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > >>>>>> No word from Mr. Fitch?
> > > > >> Mr. Fitch, I certainly hope that you are enjoying the trip to Alaska and I hope that the boat doesn't develop a leak! You have once again skirted the issue that I stated that the motorglider was a threat to my revenue. I asked you to produce where I had stated that remark and even offered a deal that would require a penalty. You have continued to ignore the issue and not produce the facts. Me, on the other hand would have gladly gone away for 60 days as offered had I made the comments that you said that I did.. Mr. Fitch, my experience speaks for itself, as I stated I have flown many gliders, including motorgliders and I certainly know the difference between Purist flights and Motorglider flights, it's like apples and oranges, they aren't the same. I am glad that I have captured your imagination. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > Hey Not So Purist Bobby, here are your OWN words. You use the words "my revenue" whereas Jon clearly stated "your club's revenue":
> > > > >
> > > > > Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > >
> > > > > Tom
> > > I clearly indicated that Jon used the words "your club's revenue", so if Not So Purist Bobby has a beef he should have read Jon's post more accurately, or at least read it.
> > >
> > > Tom
Ramy, looking at the European scene my shed some light on the future. The vast majority of long and difficult flights there is now done by motorglider, maybe because every serious x-country pilot is buying them. For us, it's still the aged population that finds motorgliders appealing for reasons stated here. I flew for over 40 years and more than 50,000 xc miles in "pure" gliders and over 45 off airport landings before considering a motorglider mainly for the convenience aspect. Knocking older pilots for that is childish and insulting.

On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 11:26:45 AM UTC-5, Herbert Kilian wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:04:41 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> > I would like to add one more thing to this discussion, to bring it back to the subject.
> > While I haven’t flown motorgliders myself, I fly with a lot of motorglider pilots. The vast majority fly way more conservatively than I do.. I am willing to risk landout and expensive aero retrieve or Uber self retrieve, much more than they are willing to risk a relight. Honestly I have no logical explanation to this, but this is a fact. There are very few of them flying aggressively, and when they fly without motor, they fly equally aggressive.
> > So to Bob’s original point, I don’t agree that motorgliders fly differently or take any advantage of their motor. Now if I get a motorglider, then there may be a point to this discussion… I will sure use this option to explore further, fly from more places etc. how about coast to coast safari adventure? How come we only had 2 pilots trying it in the US all these years? All you retired motorglider pilots, can you imagine a better way to tour the US? Wife drives the motor home with the trailer while you fly from point to point. Why not?
> >
> > Ramy
> > to On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 6:49:37 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > > Tom for f**k sake, please give up. It is clear to everyone but you who followed this thread (purely for entertainment I am sure) that you and John put words that Bob never wrote. He was talking about his club revenue, never about his own revenue. So move on! After all, you can’t argue with written text. It is all in the open. It is just painful to see you guys digging yourself deeper and deeper. Stick to the subject of motorgliders vs pure gliders advantage and disadvantage. This is more informative and productive.
> > >
> > > Ramy
> > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:24:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:32:58 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > > > Well, I've tried to stay out of this, but it's becoming ridiculous (it
> > > > > IS RAS after all)...
> > > > >
> > > > > So, I copied the entire message and pasted it into a text file so that I
> > > > > could search through it. I found the word "revenue" used five times in
> > > > > the entire 12 pages in the text file and the only time I found the
> > > > > string, "my revenue" was when Ol' Bob asked Mr. Fitch to show him where
> > > > > he allegedly said it.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, please use the whole context of a phrase that you want to use
> > > > > chastise someone. Otherwise, you're just calling names and we should
> > > > > have stopped doing that by the third grade.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan
> > > > > 5J
> > > > > On 5/21/22 14:46, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 10:34:41 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > >> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 11:19:53 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > >>> Bob, I neither like nor dislike you, in fact I don’t think about you much at all. Your first post in this thread (one of many similar ones) may have been humorous, as was my first response. But by the third one you had descended into the same drivel, motorglider pilots lack the skill for cross country, aren’t Real Men, etc. That isn’t humorous, just false and insulting. Kinda like if I said you “purist” pilots require Viagra, because you can’t get it up without help.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> To then fault me for casting “dispersion” on you for merely repeating what you said is ironic. I know nothing of you or your club’s revenue, other than motorgliders are perceived as a threat to it (in your own words). You agenda you have made excruciatingly explicit. If you want to be liked, get a tow, smile smugly to yourself, and keep quiet about it. I will continue to completely discount any opinion you may have on motorglider cross country flight - and encourage others to do so - until you have gained at least some experience in them.
> > > > > >>> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 5:01:33 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > >>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 9:40:51 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > >>>>> OK Bob, so now we have moved on from soaring and are arguing semantics. I’m on my boat, enroute to Alaska and really don’t have the time and bandwidth to keep this up. Ramy, I never called Bob greedy, and don’t think of him that way. He is however perfectly willing to cast derision and ridicule on a large class of his fellow pilots, repeatedly and without respite or subject knowledge.
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> The sentence we are apparently arguing the semantics of (on a soaring site) is:
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> “A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket.”
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Can you point me to a single word in that sentence which is factually untrue? Surely you do not get a kickback from Schleicher or Schemp or Jonkers for every motorglider they sell? Now metaphorically, the club in that statement - and in Bob’s statement - is Bob’s pocket, or whoever is running the tow service, possessive nouns notwithstanding.. Tows cannot contribute to the club or the operation unless the tow fees flow to the club or operation.
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> This is all of course ridiculous. The ridiculousness started with Bob’s opening post, one of many tiresome ones on this subject. Get over it Bob. We know how you feel. We just don’t feel the same. You aren’t changing anyone’s mind.
> > > > > >>>> Mr. Fitch, in all honesty my post are generated as humor, not attempting to change anyone's mind, and I certainly am qualified to cast my own opinions regarding the differences between MG and purist flights. What you and the choir have attempted to do is cast dispersion regarding revenue and my personal agenda. You should be very cognizant of your intentions, it is just your dislike for me that drives your agenda. I have motorglider friends, my very best friend has gone over to the dark side and we tease each other almost daily as he calls me from the sky telling me how much battery life he has remaining after launch and I reply with something like,"You Will Never Be Late For Dinner". Get a grip on things Mr. Fitch, life is too short and a few laughs will go a long way in helping you along the way. As I stated in the last line of the initial thread, Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you ever neeed a tow, come to Vero and fly. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > >>>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 2:31:19 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 1:17:02 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>> Bob, you can't stop progress, no matter how hard you try. But it is good to see someone getting along with muskets, spats, dial telephone land lines, wind up watches, lava lamps, 3-on-the-column shifts, and string towed gliders. So my friend, come out here and take a flight - oh wait a minute, you'll need a tow plane and we are fresh out......
> > > > > >>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:20:21 PM UTC-7, youngbl....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>>> Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.
> > > > > >>>>>>>> Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in Georgia. now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the Gators or an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River.
> > > > > >>>>>>>> Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less Christmas cards and save money on the postage.
> > > > > >>>>>>>> As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
> > > > > >>>>>>>> Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > >>>>>> No word from Mr. Fitch?
> > > > > >> Mr. Fitch, I certainly hope that you are enjoying the trip to Alaska and I hope that the boat doesn't develop a leak! You have once again skirted the issue that I stated that the motorglider was a threat to my revenue. I asked you to produce where I had stated that remark and even offered a deal that would require a penalty. You have continued to ignore the issue and not produce the facts. Me, on the other hand would have gladly gone away for 60 days as offered had I made the comments that you said that I did. Mr. Fitch, my experience speaks for itself, as I stated I have flown many gliders, including motorgliders and I certainly know the difference between Purist flights and Motorglider flights, it's like apples and oranges, they aren't the same. I am glad that I have captured your imagination. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > Hey Not So Purist Bobby, here are your OWN words. You use the words "my revenue" whereas Jon clearly stated "your club's revenue":
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tom
> > > > I clearly indicated that Jon used the words "your club's revenue", so if Not So Purist Bobby has a beef he should have read Jon's post more accurately, or at least read it.
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> Ramy, looking at the European scene my shed some light on the future. The vast majority of long and difficult flights there is now done by motorglider, maybe because every serious x-country pilot is buying them. For us, it's still the aged population that finds motorgliders appealing for reasons stated here. I flew for over 40 years and more than 50,000 xc miles in "pure" gliders and over 45 off airport landings before considering a motorglider mainly for the convenience aspect. Knocking older pilots for that is childish and insulting.
I remember well when on German forums motorgliders were ridiculed and put down just in the way a certain luddite does here. I'm all for separate scoring or certain handicaps for OLC flights, btw. There is an interesting article in "Segelfliegen" from two months ago where the author analyses in which situations motorglider have advantages and why, sadly I don't have a link and it's in German only. As in many things technological, there's no going back. Gutenberg was attacked for opening education and book distribution by inventing the printing press. Reformation, Enlightenment and Renaissance ensued. May you all be enlightened and more tolerant.
Herb

On Monday, 23 May 2022 at 18:19:39 UTC+1, Herbert Kilian wrote:
> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 11:26:45 AM UTC-5, Herbert Kilian wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:04:41 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> > > I would like to add one more thing to this discussion, to bring it back to the subject.
> > > While I haven’t flown motorgliders myself, I fly with a lot of motorglider pilots. The vast majority fly way more conservatively than I do. I am willing to risk landout and expensive aero retrieve or Uber self retrieve, much more than they are willing to risk a relight. Honestly I have no logical explanation to this, but this is a fact. There are very few of them flying aggressively, and when they fly without motor, they fly equally aggressive.
> > > So to Bob’s original point, I don’t agree that motorgliders fly differently or take any advantage of their motor. Now if I get a motorglider, then there may be a point to this discussion… I will sure use this option to explore further, fly from more places etc. how about coast to coast safari adventure? How come we only had 2 pilots trying it in the US all these years? All you retired motorglider pilots, can you imagine a better way to tour the US? Wife drives the motor home with the trailer while you fly from point to point. Why not?
> > >
> > > Ramy
> > > to On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 6:49:37 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > > > Tom for f**k sake, please give up. It is clear to everyone but you who followed this thread (purely for entertainment I am sure) that you and John put words that Bob never wrote. He was talking about his club revenue, never about his own revenue. So move on! After all, you can’t argue with written text. It is all in the open. It is just painful to see you guys digging yourself deeper and deeper. Stick to the subject of motorgliders vs pure gliders advantage and disadvantage. This is more informative and productive.
> > > >
> > > > Ramy
> > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:24:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:32:58 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > > > > Well, I've tried to stay out of this, but it's becoming ridiculous (it
> > > > > > IS RAS after all)...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, I copied the entire message and pasted it into a text file so that I
> > > > > > could search through it. I found the word "revenue" used five times in
> > > > > > the entire 12 pages in the text file and the only time I found the
> > > > > > string, "my revenue" was when Ol' Bob asked Mr. Fitch to show him where
> > > > > > he allegedly said it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, please use the whole context of a phrase that you want to use
> > > > > > chastise someone. Otherwise, you're just calling names and we should
> > > > > > have stopped doing that by the third grade.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dan
> > > > > > 5J
> > > > > > On 5/21/22 14:46, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 10:34:41 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > >> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 11:19:53 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > >>> Bob, I neither like nor dislike you, in fact I don’t think about you much at all. Your first post in this thread (one of many similar ones) may have been humorous, as was my first response. But by the third one you had descended into the same drivel, motorglider pilots lack the skill for cross country, aren’t Real Men, etc. That isn’t humorous, just false and insulting. Kinda like if I said you “purist” pilots require Viagra, because you can’t get it up without help.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> To then fault me for casting “dispersion” on you for merely repeating what you said is ironic. I know nothing of you or your club’s revenue, other than motorgliders are perceived as a threat to it (in your own words). You agenda you have made excruciatingly explicit. If you want to be liked, get a tow, smile smugly to yourself, and keep quiet about it. I will continue to completely discount any opinion you may have on motorglider cross country flight - and encourage others to do so - until you have gained at least some experience in them.
> > > > > > >>> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 5:01:33 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > >>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 9:40:51 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>> OK Bob, so now we have moved on from soaring and are arguing semantics. I’m on my boat, enroute to Alaska and really don’t have the time and bandwidth to keep this up. Ramy, I never called Bob greedy, and don’t think of him that way. He is however perfectly willing to cast derision and ridicule on a large class of his fellow pilots, repeatedly and without respite or subject knowledge.
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> The sentence we are apparently arguing the semantics of (on a soaring site) is:
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> “A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket.”
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Can you point me to a single word in that sentence which is factually untrue? Surely you do not get a kickback from Schleicher or Schemp or Jonkers for every motorglider they sell? Now metaphorically, the club in that statement - and in Bob’s statement - is Bob’s pocket, or whoever is running the tow service, possessive nouns notwithstanding. Tows cannot contribute to the club or the operation unless the tow fees flow to the club or operation.
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> This is all of course ridiculous. The ridiculousness started with Bob’s opening post, one of many tiresome ones on this subject. Get over it Bob. We know how you feel. We just don’t feel the same. You aren’t changing anyone’s mind.
> > > > > > >>>> Mr. Fitch, in all honesty my post are generated as humor, not attempting to change anyone's mind, and I certainly am qualified to cast my own opinions regarding the differences between MG and purist flights. What you and the choir have attempted to do is cast dispersion regarding revenue and my personal agenda. You should be very cognizant of your intentions, it is just your dislike for me that drives your agenda. I have motorglider friends, my very best friend has gone over to the dark side and we tease each other almost daily as he calls me from the sky telling me how much battery life he has remaining after launch and I reply with something like,"You Will Never Be Late For Dinner". Get a grip on things Mr. Fitch, life is too short and a few laughs will go a long way in helping you along the way.. As I stated in the last line of the initial thread, Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you ever neeed a tow, come to Vero and fly. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > >>>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 2:31:19 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 1:17:02 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>>> Bob, you can't stop progress, no matter how hard you try. But it is good to see someone getting along with muskets, spats, dial telephone land lines, wind up watches, lava lamps, 3-on-the-column shifts, and string towed gliders. So my friend, come out here and take a flight - oh wait a minute, you'll need a tow plane and we are fresh out......
> > > > > > >>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:20:21 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in Georgia. now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the Gators or an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River..
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less Christmas cards and save money on the postage.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > >>>>>> No word from Mr. Fitch?
> > > > > > >> Mr. Fitch, I certainly hope that you are enjoying the trip to Alaska and I hope that the boat doesn't develop a leak! You have once again skirted the issue that I stated that the motorglider was a threat to my revenue. I asked you to produce where I had stated that remark and even offered a deal that would require a penalty. You have continued to ignore the issue and not produce the facts. Me, on the other hand would have gladly gone away for 60 days as offered had I made the comments that you said that I did. Mr. Fitch, my experience speaks for itself, as I stated I have flown many gliders, including motorgliders and I certainly know the difference between Purist flights and Motorglider flights, it's like apples and oranges, they aren't the same. I am glad that I have captured your imagination. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > Hey Not So Purist Bobby, here are your OWN words. You use the words "my revenue" whereas Jon clearly stated "your club's revenue":
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tom
> > > > > I clearly indicated that Jon used the words "your club's revenue", so if Not So Purist Bobby has a beef he should have read Jon's post more accurately, or at least read it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Tom
> > Ramy, looking at the European scene my shed some light on the future. The vast majority of long and difficult flights there is now done by motorglider, maybe because every serious x-country pilot is buying them. For us, it's still the aged population that finds motorgliders appealing for reasons stated here. I flew for over 40 years and more than 50,000 xc miles in "pure" gliders and over 45 off airport landings before considering a motorglider mainly for the convenience aspect. Knocking older pilots for that is childish and insulting.
> I remember well when on German forums motorgliders were ridiculed and put down just in the way a certain luddite does here. I'm all for separate scoring or certain handicaps for OLC flights, btw. There is an interesting article in "Segelfliegen" from two months ago where the author analyses in which situations motorglider have advantages and why, sadly I don't have a link and it's in German only. As in many things technological, there's no going back. Gutenberg was attacked for opening education and book distribution by inventing the printing press. Reformation, Enlightenment and Renaissance ensued. May you all be enlightened and more tolerant.
> Herb

On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 2:46:50 PM UTC-4, jpg...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, 23 May 2022 at 18:19:39 UTC+1, Herbert Kilian wrote:
> > On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 11:26:45 AM UTC-5, Herbert Kilian wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:04:41 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> > > > I would like to add one more thing to this discussion, to bring it back to the subject.
> > > > While I haven’t flown motorgliders myself, I fly with a lot of motorglider pilots. The vast majority fly way more conservatively than I do. I am willing to risk landout and expensive aero retrieve or Uber self retrieve, much more than they are willing to risk a relight. Honestly I have no logical explanation to this, but this is a fact. There are very few of them flying aggressively, and when they fly without motor, they fly equally aggressive.
> > > > So to Bob’s original point, I don’t agree that motorgliders fly differently or take any advantage of their motor. Now if I get a motorglider, then there may be a point to this discussion… I will sure use this option to explore further, fly from more places etc. how about coast to coast safari adventure? How come we only had 2 pilots trying it in the US all these years? All you retired motorglider pilots, can you imagine a better way to tour the US? Wife drives the motor home with the trailer while you fly from point to point. Why not?
> > > >
> > > > Ramy
> > > > to On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 6:49:37 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > > > > Tom for f**k sake, please give up. It is clear to everyone but you who followed this thread (purely for entertainment I am sure) that you and John put words that Bob never wrote. He was talking about his club revenue, never about his own revenue. So move on! After all, you can’t argue with written text. It is all in the open. It is just painful to see you guys digging yourself deeper and deeper. Stick to the subject of motorgliders vs pure gliders advantage and disadvantage. This is more informative and productive.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ramy
> > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 6:24:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:32:58 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > > > > > Well, I've tried to stay out of this, but it's becoming ridiculous (it
> > > > > > > IS RAS after all)...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, I copied the entire message and pasted it into a text file so that I
> > > > > > > could search through it. I found the word "revenue" used five times in
> > > > > > > the entire 12 pages in the text file and the only time I found the
> > > > > > > string, "my revenue" was when Ol' Bob asked Mr. Fitch to show him where
> > > > > > > he allegedly said it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, please use the whole context of a phrase that you want to use
> > > > > > > chastise someone. Otherwise, you're just calling names and we should
> > > > > > > have stopped doing that by the third grade.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dan
> > > > > > > 5J
> > > > > > > On 5/21/22 14:46, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 10:34:41 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > >> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 11:19:53 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > > >>> Bob, I neither like nor dislike you, in fact I don’t think about you much at all. Your first post in this thread (one of many similar ones) may have been humorous, as was my first response. But by the third one you had descended into the same drivel, motorglider pilots lack the skill for cross country, aren’t Real Men, etc. That isn’t humorous, just false and insulting. Kinda like if I said you “purist” pilots require Viagra, because you can’t get it up without help.
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> To then fault me for casting “dispersion” on you for merely repeating what you said is ironic. I know nothing of you or your club’s revenue, other than motorgliders are perceived as a threat to it (in your own words). You agenda you have made excruciatingly explicit. If you want to be liked, get a tow, smile smugly to yourself, and keep quiet about it. I will continue to completely discount any opinion you may have on motorglider cross country flight - and encourage others to do so - until you have gained at least some experience in them.
> > > > > > > >>> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 5:01:33 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 9:40:51 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>> OK Bob, so now we have moved on from soaring and are arguing semantics. I’m on my boat, enroute to Alaska and really don’t have the time and bandwidth to keep this up. Ramy, I never called Bob greedy, and don’t think of him that way. He is however perfectly willing to cast derision and ridicule on a large class of his fellow pilots, repeatedly and without respite or subject knowledge.
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> The sentence we are apparently arguing the semantics of (on a soaring site) is:
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> “A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket.”
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> Can you point me to a single word in that sentence which is factually untrue? Surely you do not get a kickback from Schleicher or Schemp or Jonkers for every motorglider they sell? Now metaphorically, the club in that statement - and in Bob’s statement - is Bob’s pocket, or whoever is running the tow service, possessive nouns notwithstanding. Tows cannot contribute to the club or the operation unless the tow fees flow to the club or operation.
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> This is all of course ridiculous. The ridiculousness started with Bob’s opening post, one of many tiresome ones on this subject. Get over it Bob. We know how you feel. We just don’t feel the same. You aren’t changing anyone’s mind.
> > > > > > > >>>> Mr. Fitch, in all honesty my post are generated as humor, not attempting to change anyone's mind, and I certainly am qualified to cast my own opinions regarding the differences between MG and purist flights.. What you and the choir have attempted to do is cast dispersion regarding revenue and my personal agenda. You should be very cognizant of your intentions, it is just your dislike for me that drives your agenda. I have motorglider friends, my very best friend has gone over to the dark side and we tease each other almost daily as he calls me from the sky telling me how much battery life he has remaining after launch and I reply with something like,"You Will Never Be Late For Dinner". Get a grip on things Mr. Fitch, life is too short and a few laughs will go a long way in helping you along the way. As I stated in the last line of the initial thread, Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you ever neeed a tow, come to Vero and fly. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > >>>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 2:31:19 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 1:17:02 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Bob, you can't stop progress, no matter how hard you try. But it is good to see someone getting along with muskets, spats, dial telephone land lines, wind up watches, lava lamps, 3-on-the-column shifts, and string towed gliders. So my friend, come out here and take a flight - oh wait a minute, you'll need a tow plane and we are fresh out......
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:20:21 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in Georgia. now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the Gators or an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less Christmas cards and save money on the postage.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > >>>>>> No word from Mr. Fitch?
> > > > > > > >> Mr. Fitch, I certainly hope that you are enjoying the trip to Alaska and I hope that the boat doesn't develop a leak! You have once again skirted the issue that I stated that the motorglider was a threat to my revenue. I asked you to produce where I had stated that remark and even offered a deal that would require a penalty. You have continued to ignore the issue and not produce the facts. Me, on the other hand would have gladly gone away for 60 days as offered had I made the comments that you said that I did. Mr. Fitch, my experience speaks for itself, as I stated I have flown many gliders, including motorgliders and I certainly know the difference between Purist flights and Motorglider flights, it's like apples and oranges, they aren't the same. I am glad that I have captured your imagination. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > > Hey Not So Purist Bobby, here are your OWN words. You use the words "my revenue" whereas Jon clearly stated "your club's revenue":
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Tom
> > > > > > I clearly indicated that Jon used the words "your club's revenue", so if Not So Purist Bobby has a beef he should have read Jon's post more accurately, or at least read it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tom
> > > Ramy, looking at the European scene my shed some light on the future. The vast majority of long and difficult flights there is now done by motorglider, maybe because every serious x-country pilot is buying them. For us, it's still the aged population that finds motorgliders appealing for reasons stated here. I flew for over 40 years and more than 50,000 xc miles in "pure" gliders and over 45 off airport landings before considering a motorglider mainly for the convenience aspect. Knocking older pilots for that is childish and insulting.
> > I remember well when on German forums motorgliders were ridiculed and put down just in the way a certain luddite does here. I'm all for separate scoring or certain handicaps for OLC flights, btw. There is an interesting article in "Segelfliegen" from two months ago where the author analyses in which situations motorglider have advantages and why, sadly I don't have a link and it's in German only. As in many things technological, there's no going back. Gutenberg was attacked for opening education and book distribution by inventing the printing press. Reformation, Enlightenment and Renaissance ensued. May you all be enlightened and more tolerant.
> > Herb
> This is the way gliding is inevitably evolving, if only because people who buy new high performance gliders are voting decisively with their wallets.. For example, from the data I can find, of the first 23 AS33s all were turbos. Of the first 158 Ventus 3s all were motorised (including one that seems to have been converted to a turbo after purchase). BTW 80 of those motorised V3s are Solo self launchers so that is the commonest variety. Of Arcuses - 29 straight glider, 96 Turbos, 228 Ms and 4 E(lectric). Etc, etc.
I do not think that the argument is about where the platform is evolving, I would be the first to say that the self launch and sustainer numbers have certainly grown here in the USA but not as much as compared to European numbers. Go ahead Herbie figure it out. The article in Segelfliegen pretty much sums up the differences, you can get it translated if you do not understand German. Yes, the platform is headed more toward the sustainer and self launch gliders, it is a matter of convenience! Have I ever said to myself what am I doing here at this location and altitude with no get me home button, hell yes. When I look at the recent 18 meter contest I know that two maybe three of the top finishers were Purist, I do think that pretty much sum up what I have been saying. Old Bob, The Purist

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 4:25:54 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:24:17 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:32:58 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > Well, I've tried to stay out of this, but it's becoming ridiculous (it
> > > IS RAS after all)...
> > >
> > > So, I copied the entire message and pasted it into a text file so that I
> > > could search through it. I found the word "revenue" used five times in
> > > the entire 12 pages in the text file and the only time I found the
> > > string, "my revenue" was when Ol' Bob asked Mr. Fitch to show him where
> > > he allegedly said it.
> > >
> > > So, please use the whole context of a phrase that you want to use
> > > chastise someone. Otherwise, you're just calling names and we should
> > > have stopped doing that by the third grade.
> > >
> > > Dan
> > > 5J
> > > On 5/21/22 14:46, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 10:34:41 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 11:19:53 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > >>> Bob, I neither like nor dislike you, in fact I don’t think about you much at all. Your first post in this thread (one of many similar ones) may have been humorous, as was my first response. But by the third one you had descended into the same drivel, motorglider pilots lack the skill for cross country, aren’t Real Men, etc. That isn’t humorous, just false and insulting. Kinda like if I said you “purist” pilots require Viagra, because you can’t get it up without help.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> To then fault me for casting “dispersion” on you for merely repeating what you said is ironic. I know nothing of you or your club’s revenue, other than motorgliders are perceived as a threat to it (in your own words). You agenda you have made excruciatingly explicit.. If you want to be liked, get a tow, smile smugly to yourself, and keep quiet about it. I will continue to completely discount any opinion you may have on motorglider cross country flight - and encourage others to do so - until you have gained at least some experience in them.
> > > >>> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 5:01:33 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 9:40:51 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > >>>>> OK Bob, so now we have moved on from soaring and are arguing semantics. I’m on my boat, enroute to Alaska and really don’t have the time and bandwidth to keep this up. Ramy, I never called Bob greedy, and don’t think of him that way. He is however perfectly willing to cast derision and ridicule on a large class of his fellow pilots, repeatedly and without respite or subject knowledge.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> The sentence we are apparently arguing the semantics of (on a soaring site) is:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> “A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket.”
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Can you point me to a single word in that sentence which is factually untrue? Surely you do not get a kickback from Schleicher or Schemp or Jonkers for every motorglider they sell? Now metaphorically, the club in that statement - and in Bob’s statement - is Bob’s pocket, or whoever is running the tow service, possessive nouns notwithstanding. Tows cannot contribute to the club or the operation unless the tow fees flow to the club or operation.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> This is all of course ridiculous. The ridiculousness started with Bob’s opening post, one of many tiresome ones on this subject. Get over it Bob. We know how you feel. We just don’t feel the same. You aren’t changing anyone’s mind.
> > > >>>> Mr. Fitch, in all honesty my post are generated as humor, not attempting to change anyone's mind, and I certainly am qualified to cast my own opinions regarding the differences between MG and purist flights. What you and the choir have attempted to do is cast dispersion regarding revenue and my personal agenda. You should be very cognizant of your intentions, it is just your dislike for me that drives your agenda. I have motorglider friends, my very best friend has gone over to the dark side and we tease each other almost daily as he calls me from the sky telling me how much battery life he has remaining after launch and I reply with something like,"You Will Never Be Late For Dinner". Get a grip on things Mr. Fitch, life is too short and a few laughs will go a long way in helping you along the way. As I stated in the last line of the initial thread, Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you ever neeed a tow, come to Vero and fly. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > >>>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 2:31:19 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>>>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 1:17:02 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > >>>>>>> Bob, you can't stop progress, no matter how hard you try. But it is good to see someone getting along with muskets, spats, dial telephone land lines, wind up watches, lava lamps, 3-on-the-column shifts, and string towed gliders. So my friend, come out here and take a flight - oh wait a minute, you'll need a tow plane and we are fresh out......
> > > >>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:20:21 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>> Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.
> > > >>>>>>>> Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in Georgia. now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the Gators or an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River.
> > > >>>>>>>> Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less Christmas cards and save money on the postage.
> > > >>>>>>>> As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
> > > >>>>>>>> Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > >>>>>> No word from Mr. Fitch?
> > > >> Mr. Fitch, I certainly hope that you are enjoying the trip to Alaska and I hope that the boat doesn't develop a leak! You have once again skirted the issue that I stated that the motorglider was a threat to my revenue. I asked you to produce where I had stated that remark and even offered a deal that would require a penalty. You have continued to ignore the issue and not produce the facts. Me, on the other hand would have gladly gone away for 60 days as offered had I made the comments that you said that I did. Mr. Fitch, my experience speaks for itself, as I stated I have flown many gliders, including motorgliders and I certainly know the difference between Purist flights and Motorglider flights, it's like apples and oranges, they aren't the same. I am glad that I have captured your imagination. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > Hey Not So Purist Bobby, here are your OWN words. You use the words "my revenue" whereas Jon clearly stated "your club's revenue":
> > > >
> > > > Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> > I clearly indicated that Jon used the words "your club's revenue", so if Not So Purist Bobby has a beef he should have read Jon's post more accurately, or at least read it.
> >
> > Tom
> The post that Mr. Fitch posted made reference to money going into Bob's pocket and a threat to my revenue. Mr. Fitch has yet to acknowledge the implications or the statement. When asked to produce such statement he has been void of candor and skirts the issue or statement! I am sure that Mr. Fitch is a credible individual but in this case something is missing. Dan went to the trouble of reviewing all of the post and set the record straight, the facts speak for themselves. Old Bob, The Purist

On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 4:22:02 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 9:42:48 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 4:25:54 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:24:17 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:32:58 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > > > Well, I've tried to stay out of this, but it's becoming ridiculous (it
> > > > > IS RAS after all)...
> > > > >
> > > > > So, I copied the entire message and pasted it into a text file so that I
> > > > > could search through it. I found the word "revenue" used five times in
> > > > > the entire 12 pages in the text file and the only time I found the
> > > > > string, "my revenue" was when Ol' Bob asked Mr. Fitch to show him where
> > > > > he allegedly said it.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, please use the whole context of a phrase that you want to use
> > > > > chastise someone. Otherwise, you're just calling names and we should
> > > > > have stopped doing that by the third grade.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan
> > > > > 5J
> > > > > On 5/21/22 14:46, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 10:34:41 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > >> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 11:19:53 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > >>> Bob, I neither like nor dislike you, in fact I don’t think about you much at all. Your first post in this thread (one of many similar ones) may have been humorous, as was my first response. But by the third one you had descended into the same drivel, motorglider pilots lack the skill for cross country, aren’t Real Men, etc. That isn’t humorous, just false and insulting. Kinda like if I said you “purist” pilots require Viagra, because you can’t get it up without help.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> To then fault me for casting “dispersion” on you for merely repeating what you said is ironic. I know nothing of you or your club’s revenue, other than motorgliders are perceived as a threat to it (in your own words). You agenda you have made excruciatingly explicit. If you want to be liked, get a tow, smile smugly to yourself, and keep quiet about it. I will continue to completely discount any opinion you may have on motorglider cross country flight - and encourage others to do so - until you have gained at least some experience in them.
> > > > > >>> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 5:01:33 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > >>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 9:40:51 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > >>>>> OK Bob, so now we have moved on from soaring and are arguing semantics. I’m on my boat, enroute to Alaska and really don’t have the time and bandwidth to keep this up. Ramy, I never called Bob greedy, and don’t think of him that way. He is however perfectly willing to cast derision and ridicule on a large class of his fellow pilots, repeatedly and without respite or subject knowledge.
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> The sentence we are apparently arguing the semantics of (on a soaring site) is:
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> “A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket.”
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Can you point me to a single word in that sentence which is factually untrue? Surely you do not get a kickback from Schleicher or Schemp or Jonkers for every motorglider they sell? Now metaphorically, the club in that statement - and in Bob’s statement - is Bob’s pocket, or whoever is running the tow service, possessive nouns notwithstanding.. Tows cannot contribute to the club or the operation unless the tow fees flow to the club or operation.
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> This is all of course ridiculous. The ridiculousness started with Bob’s opening post, one of many tiresome ones on this subject. Get over it Bob. We know how you feel. We just don’t feel the same. You aren’t changing anyone’s mind.
> > > > > >>>> Mr. Fitch, in all honesty my post are generated as humor, not attempting to change anyone's mind, and I certainly am qualified to cast my own opinions regarding the differences between MG and purist flights. What you and the choir have attempted to do is cast dispersion regarding revenue and my personal agenda. You should be very cognizant of your intentions, it is just your dislike for me that drives your agenda. I have motorglider friends, my very best friend has gone over to the dark side and we tease each other almost daily as he calls me from the sky telling me how much battery life he has remaining after launch and I reply with something like,"You Will Never Be Late For Dinner". Get a grip on things Mr. Fitch, life is too short and a few laughs will go a long way in helping you along the way. As I stated in the last line of the initial thread, Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you ever neeed a tow, come to Vero and fly. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > >>>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 2:31:19 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 1:17:02 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>> Bob, you can't stop progress, no matter how hard you try. But it is good to see someone getting along with muskets, spats, dial telephone land lines, wind up watches, lava lamps, 3-on-the-column shifts, and string towed gliders. So my friend, come out here and take a flight - oh wait a minute, you'll need a tow plane and we are fresh out......
> > > > > >>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:20:21 PM UTC-7, youngbl....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>>> Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.
> > > > > >>>>>>>> Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in Georgia. now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the Gators or an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River.
> > > > > >>>>>>>> Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less Christmas cards and save money on the postage.
> > > > > >>>>>>>> As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
> > > > > >>>>>>>> Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > >>>>>> No word from Mr. Fitch?
> > > > > >> Mr. Fitch, I certainly hope that you are enjoying the trip to Alaska and I hope that the boat doesn't develop a leak! You have once again skirted the issue that I stated that the motorglider was a threat to my revenue. I asked you to produce where I had stated that remark and even offered a deal that would require a penalty. You have continued to ignore the issue and not produce the facts. Me, on the other hand would have gladly gone away for 60 days as offered had I made the comments that you said that I did. Mr. Fitch, my experience speaks for itself, as I stated I have flown many gliders, including motorgliders and I certainly know the difference between Purist flights and Motorglider flights, it's like apples and oranges, they aren't the same. I am glad that I have captured your imagination. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > Hey Not So Purist Bobby, here are your OWN words. You use the words "my revenue" whereas Jon clearly stated "your club's revenue":
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tom
> > > > I clearly indicated that Jon used the words "your club's revenue", so if Not So Purist Bobby has a beef he should have read Jon's post more accurately, or at least read it.
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> > > The post that Mr. Fitch posted made reference to money going into Bob's pocket and a threat to my revenue. Mr. Fitch has yet to acknowledge the implications or the statement. When asked to produce such statement he has been void of candor and skirts the issue or statement! I am sure that Mr. Fitch is a credible individual but in this case something is missing. Dan went to the trouble of reviewing all of the post and set the record straight, the facts speak for themselves. Old Bob, The Purist
> > Hey Bobby, you LIE - Jon made NO SUCH CLAIM! You should repost Jon's exact words before going any further - I ALREADY HAVE!
> >
> > Tom
> Perfect example, the Lobotomy does not always work! Old Bob, The Purist

On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 11:54:10 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 4:22:02 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 9:42:48 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 4:25:54 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:24:17 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:32:58 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > > > > Well, I've tried to stay out of this, but it's becoming ridiculous (it
> > > > > > IS RAS after all)...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, I copied the entire message and pasted it into a text file so that I
> > > > > > could search through it. I found the word "revenue" used five times in
> > > > > > the entire 12 pages in the text file and the only time I found the
> > > > > > string, "my revenue" was when Ol' Bob asked Mr. Fitch to show him where
> > > > > > he allegedly said it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, please use the whole context of a phrase that you want to use
> > > > > > chastise someone. Otherwise, you're just calling names and we should
> > > > > > have stopped doing that by the third grade.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dan
> > > > > > 5J
> > > > > > On 5/21/22 14:46, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 10:34:41 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > >> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 11:19:53 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > >>> Bob, I neither like nor dislike you, in fact I don’t think about you much at all. Your first post in this thread (one of many similar ones) may have been humorous, as was my first response. But by the third one you had descended into the same drivel, motorglider pilots lack the skill for cross country, aren’t Real Men, etc. That isn’t humorous, just false and insulting. Kinda like if I said you “purist” pilots require Viagra, because you can’t get it up without help.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> To then fault me for casting “dispersion” on you for merely repeating what you said is ironic. I know nothing of you or your club’s revenue, other than motorgliders are perceived as a threat to it (in your own words). You agenda you have made excruciatingly explicit. If you want to be liked, get a tow, smile smugly to yourself, and keep quiet about it. I will continue to completely discount any opinion you may have on motorglider cross country flight - and encourage others to do so - until you have gained at least some experience in them.
> > > > > > >>> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 5:01:33 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > >>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 9:40:51 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>> OK Bob, so now we have moved on from soaring and are arguing semantics. I’m on my boat, enroute to Alaska and really don’t have the time and bandwidth to keep this up. Ramy, I never called Bob greedy, and don’t think of him that way. He is however perfectly willing to cast derision and ridicule on a large class of his fellow pilots, repeatedly and without respite or subject knowledge.
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> The sentence we are apparently arguing the semantics of (on a soaring site) is:
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> “A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket.”
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Can you point me to a single word in that sentence which is factually untrue? Surely you do not get a kickback from Schleicher or Schemp or Jonkers for every motorglider they sell? Now metaphorically, the club in that statement - and in Bob’s statement - is Bob’s pocket, or whoever is running the tow service, possessive nouns notwithstanding. Tows cannot contribute to the club or the operation unless the tow fees flow to the club or operation.
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> This is all of course ridiculous. The ridiculousness started with Bob’s opening post, one of many tiresome ones on this subject. Get over it Bob. We know how you feel. We just don’t feel the same. You aren’t changing anyone’s mind.
> > > > > > >>>> Mr. Fitch, in all honesty my post are generated as humor, not attempting to change anyone's mind, and I certainly am qualified to cast my own opinions regarding the differences between MG and purist flights. What you and the choir have attempted to do is cast dispersion regarding revenue and my personal agenda. You should be very cognizant of your intentions, it is just your dislike for me that drives your agenda. I have motorglider friends, my very best friend has gone over to the dark side and we tease each other almost daily as he calls me from the sky telling me how much battery life he has remaining after launch and I reply with something like,"You Will Never Be Late For Dinner". Get a grip on things Mr. Fitch, life is too short and a few laughs will go a long way in helping you along the way.. As I stated in the last line of the initial thread, Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you ever neeed a tow, come to Vero and fly. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > >>>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 2:31:19 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 1:17:02 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>>> Bob, you can't stop progress, no matter how hard you try. But it is good to see someone getting along with muskets, spats, dial telephone land lines, wind up watches, lava lamps, 3-on-the-column shifts, and string towed gliders. So my friend, come out here and take a flight - oh wait a minute, you'll need a tow plane and we are fresh out......
> > > > > > >>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:20:21 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in Georgia. now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the Gators or an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River..
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less Christmas cards and save money on the postage.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > >>>>>> No word from Mr. Fitch?
> > > > > > >> Mr. Fitch, I certainly hope that you are enjoying the trip to Alaska and I hope that the boat doesn't develop a leak! You have once again skirted the issue that I stated that the motorglider was a threat to my revenue. I asked you to produce where I had stated that remark and even offered a deal that would require a penalty. You have continued to ignore the issue and not produce the facts. Me, on the other hand would have gladly gone away for 60 days as offered had I made the comments that you said that I did. Mr. Fitch, my experience speaks for itself, as I stated I have flown many gliders, including motorgliders and I certainly know the difference between Purist flights and Motorglider flights, it's like apples and oranges, they aren't the same. I am glad that I have captured your imagination. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > Hey Not So Purist Bobby, here are your OWN words. You use the words "my revenue" whereas Jon clearly stated "your club's revenue":
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tom
> > > > > I clearly indicated that Jon used the words "your club's revenue", so if Not So Purist Bobby has a beef he should have read Jon's post more accurately, or at least read it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Tom
> > > > The post that Mr. Fitch posted made reference to money going into Bob's pocket and a threat to my revenue. Mr. Fitch has yet to acknowledge the implications or the statement. When asked to produce such statement he has been void of candor and skirts the issue or statement! I am sure that Mr. Fitch is a credible individual but in this case something is missing. Dan went to the trouble of reviewing all of the post and set the record straight, the facts speak for themselves. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > Hey Bobby, you LIE - Jon made NO SUCH CLAIM! You should repost Jon's exact words before going any further - I ALREADY HAVE!
> > >
> > > Tom
> > Perfect example, the Lobotomy does not always work! Old Bob, The Purist
> Hey Boobby, you made a claim that you CAN'T back up (SURPRISE!) - I agree that your lobotomy failed.
>
> Tom
Uncle Tom, control yourself, you are making the motorglider guys look bad. Old Bob, The Purist

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:35:05 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 11:54:10 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 4:22:02 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 9:42:48 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 4:25:54 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:24:17 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:32:58 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > > > > > Well, I've tried to stay out of this, but it's becoming ridiculous (it
> > > > > > > IS RAS after all)...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, I copied the entire message and pasted it into a text file so that I
> > > > > > > could search through it. I found the word "revenue" used five times in
> > > > > > > the entire 12 pages in the text file and the only time I found the
> > > > > > > string, "my revenue" was when Ol' Bob asked Mr. Fitch to show him where
> > > > > > > he allegedly said it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, please use the whole context of a phrase that you want to use
> > > > > > > chastise someone. Otherwise, you're just calling names and we should
> > > > > > > have stopped doing that by the third grade.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dan
> > > > > > > 5J
> > > > > > > On 5/21/22 14:46, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 10:34:41 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > >> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 11:19:53 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > > >>> Bob, I neither like nor dislike you, in fact I don’t think about you much at all. Your first post in this thread (one of many similar ones) may have been humorous, as was my first response. But by the third one you had descended into the same drivel, motorglider pilots lack the skill for cross country, aren’t Real Men, etc. That isn’t humorous, just false and insulting. Kinda like if I said you “purist” pilots require Viagra, because you can’t get it up without help.
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> To then fault me for casting “dispersion” on you for merely repeating what you said is ironic. I know nothing of you or your club’s revenue, other than motorgliders are perceived as a threat to it (in your own words). You agenda you have made excruciatingly explicit. If you want to be liked, get a tow, smile smugly to yourself, and keep quiet about it. I will continue to completely discount any opinion you may have on motorglider cross country flight - and encourage others to do so - until you have gained at least some experience in them.
> > > > > > > >>> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 5:01:33 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 9:40:51 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>> OK Bob, so now we have moved on from soaring and are arguing semantics. I’m on my boat, enroute to Alaska and really don’t have the time and bandwidth to keep this up. Ramy, I never called Bob greedy, and don’t think of him that way. He is however perfectly willing to cast derision and ridicule on a large class of his fellow pilots, repeatedly and without respite or subject knowledge.
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> The sentence we are apparently arguing the semantics of (on a soaring site) is:
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> “A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket.”
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> Can you point me to a single word in that sentence which is factually untrue? Surely you do not get a kickback from Schleicher or Schemp or Jonkers for every motorglider they sell? Now metaphorically, the club in that statement - and in Bob’s statement - is Bob’s pocket, or whoever is running the tow service, possessive nouns notwithstanding. Tows cannot contribute to the club or the operation unless the tow fees flow to the club or operation.
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> This is all of course ridiculous. The ridiculousness started with Bob’s opening post, one of many tiresome ones on this subject. Get over it Bob. We know how you feel. We just don’t feel the same. You aren’t changing anyone’s mind.
> > > > > > > >>>> Mr. Fitch, in all honesty my post are generated as humor, not attempting to change anyone's mind, and I certainly am qualified to cast my own opinions regarding the differences between MG and purist flights.. What you and the choir have attempted to do is cast dispersion regarding revenue and my personal agenda. You should be very cognizant of your intentions, it is just your dislike for me that drives your agenda. I have motorglider friends, my very best friend has gone over to the dark side and we tease each other almost daily as he calls me from the sky telling me how much battery life he has remaining after launch and I reply with something like,"You Will Never Be Late For Dinner". Get a grip on things Mr. Fitch, life is too short and a few laughs will go a long way in helping you along the way. As I stated in the last line of the initial thread, Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you ever neeed a tow, come to Vero and fly. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > >>>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 2:31:19 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 1:17:02 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Bob, you can't stop progress, no matter how hard you try. But it is good to see someone getting along with muskets, spats, dial telephone land lines, wind up watches, lava lamps, 3-on-the-column shifts, and string towed gliders. So my friend, come out here and take a flight - oh wait a minute, you'll need a tow plane and we are fresh out......
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:20:21 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in Georgia. now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the Gators or an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less Christmas cards and save money on the postage.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > >>>>>> No word from Mr. Fitch?
> > > > > > > >> Mr. Fitch, I certainly hope that you are enjoying the trip to Alaska and I hope that the boat doesn't develop a leak! You have once again skirted the issue that I stated that the motorglider was a threat to my revenue. I asked you to produce where I had stated that remark and even offered a deal that would require a penalty. You have continued to ignore the issue and not produce the facts. Me, on the other hand would have gladly gone away for 60 days as offered had I made the comments that you said that I did. Mr. Fitch, my experience speaks for itself, as I stated I have flown many gliders, including motorgliders and I certainly know the difference between Purist flights and Motorglider flights, it's like apples and oranges, they aren't the same. I am glad that I have captured your imagination. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > > Hey Not So Purist Bobby, here are your OWN words. You use the words "my revenue" whereas Jon clearly stated "your club's revenue":
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Tom
> > > > > > I clearly indicated that Jon used the words "your club's revenue", so if Not So Purist Bobby has a beef he should have read Jon's post more accurately, or at least read it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tom
> > > > > The post that Mr. Fitch posted made reference to money going into Bob's pocket and a threat to my revenue. Mr. Fitch has yet to acknowledge the implications or the statement. When asked to produce such statement he has been void of candor and skirts the issue or statement! I am sure that Mr. Fitch is a credible individual but in this case something is missing. Dan went to the trouble of reviewing all of the post and set the record straight, the facts speak for themselves. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > Hey Bobby, you LIE - Jon made NO SUCH CLAIM! You should repost Jon's exact words before going any further - I ALREADY HAVE!
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> > > Perfect example, the Lobotomy does not always work! Old Bob, The Purist
> > Hey Boobby, you made a claim that you CAN'T back up (SURPRISE!) - I agree that your lobotomy failed.
> >
> > Tom
> Uncle Tom, control yourself, you are making the motorglider guys look bad.. Old Bob, The Purist

On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 4:03:35 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 9:54:35 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 1:35:05 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 11:54:10 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 4:22:02 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 9:42:48 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 4:25:54 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:24:17 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:32:58 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Well, I've tried to stay out of this, but it's becoming ridiculous (it
> > > > > > > > > IS RAS after all)...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So, I copied the entire message and pasted it into a text file so that I
> > > > > > > > > could search through it. I found the word "revenue" used five times in
> > > > > > > > > the entire 12 pages in the text file and the only time I found the
> > > > > > > > > string, "my revenue" was when Ol' Bob asked Mr. Fitch to show him where
> > > > > > > > > he allegedly said it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So, please use the whole context of a phrase that you want to use
> > > > > > > > > chastise someone. Otherwise, you're just calling names and we should
> > > > > > > > > have stopped doing that by the third grade.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dan
> > > > > > > > > 5J
> > > > > > > > > On 5/21/22 14:46, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 10:34:41 AM UTC-7, youngbl....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 11:19:53 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>> Bob, I neither like nor dislike you, in fact I don’t think about you much at all. Your first post in this thread (one of many similar ones) may have been humorous, as was my first response. But by the third one you had descended into the same drivel, motorglider pilots lack the skill for cross country, aren’t Real Men, etc. That isn’t humorous, just false and insulting. Kinda like if I said you “purist” pilots require Viagra, because you can’t get it up without help.
> > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > >>> To then fault me for casting “dispersion” on you for merely repeating what you said is ironic. I know nothing of you or your club’s revenue, other than motorgliders are perceived as a threat to it (in your own words). You agenda you have made excruciatingly explicit. If you want to be liked, get a tow, smile smugly to yourself, and keep quiet about it. I will continue to completely discount any opinion you may have on motorglider cross country flight - and encourage others to do so - until you have gained at least some experience in them.
> > > > > > > > > >>> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 5:01:33 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 9:40:51 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> OK Bob, so now we have moved on from soaring and are arguing semantics. I’m on my boat, enroute to Alaska and really don’t have the time and bandwidth to keep this up. Ramy, I never called Bob greedy, and don’t think of him that way. He is however perfectly willing to cast derision and ridicule on a large class of his fellow pilots, repeatedly and without respite or subject knowledge.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> The sentence we are apparently arguing the semantics of (on a soaring site) is:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> “A motorglider is not less expensive than paying for tows - rather it costs more than all the tows you are ever likely to get - but the money ends up in some one other than Bob's pocket.”
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> Can you point me to a single word in that sentence which is factually untrue? Surely you do not get a kickback from Schleicher or Schemp or Jonkers for every motorglider they sell? Now metaphorically, the club in that statement - and in Bob’s statement - is Bob’s pocket, or whoever is running the tow service, possessive nouns notwithstanding. Tows cannot contribute to the club or the operation unless the tow fees flow to the club or operation.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> This is all of course ridiculous. The ridiculousness started with Bob’s opening post, one of many tiresome ones on this subject. Get over it Bob. We know how you feel. We just don’t feel the same. You aren’t changing anyone’s mind.
> > > > > > > > > >>>> Mr. Fitch, in all honesty my post are generated as humor, not attempting to change anyone's mind, and I certainly am qualified to cast my own opinions regarding the differences between MG and purist flights. What you and the choir have attempted to do is cast dispersion regarding revenue and my personal agenda. You should be very cognizant of your intentions, it is just your dislike for me that drives your agenda. I have motorglider friends, my very best friend has gone over to the dark side and we tease each other almost daily as he calls me from the sky telling me how much battery life he has remaining after launch and I reply with something like,"You Will Never Be Late For Dinner". Get a grip on things Mr. Fitch, life is too short and a few laughs will go a long way in helping you along the way. As I stated in the last line of the initial thread, Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you ever neeed a tow, come to Vero and fly.. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > > > >>>>> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 2:31:19 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 1:17:02 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Bob, you can't stop progress, no matter how hard you try. But it is good to see someone getting along with muskets, spats, dial telephone land lines, wind up watches, lava lamps, 3-on-the-column shifts, and string towed gliders. So my friend, come out here and take a flight - oh wait a minute, you'll need a tow plane and we are fresh out......
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:20:21 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Right when things are somewhat calm and the snowbirds are headed back up north the weather finally gets good and we were able to get a few good glider flights in the books. The motorglider drivers up at Seminole had some nice flights and discovered that the Florida spring had arrived a bit late.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Now comes the disturbing news, my fellow glider pilot and purist informed me that he had sold his 27 and was taking delivery of a motorglider. Now this is a good guy that I met back long ago only to realize that we were from the same area in Georgia. now this makes two of my good friends that have gone to the dark side during the past few weeks. I have been pondering what would cause two perfectly good guys to convert and go to the other side, this would be like me a UM guy pulling for the Gators or an Alabama fan pulling for Auburn, it just doesn't happen. I know that both of these fine gentlemen did not drink the same water from the Coosa River.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Wow, what is happening, next thing you know my dog will be looking at motorgliders and trying to convince me to get one, I told Eileen to change the dogs medication. So, the best thing about this whole scenario is that I will have to buy two less Christmas cards and save money on the postage.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> As for me I will keep flying that antique 27 and Eileen will stay with the 24 and hopefully the dog will recover.
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Enjoy those motorgliders my friends, call me if you need a tow, or come on down to Vero and we will tape those doors shut and go for a flight. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > > > >>>>>> No word from Mr. Fitch?
> > > > > > > > > >> Mr. Fitch, I certainly hope that you are enjoying the trip to Alaska and I hope that the boat doesn't develop a leak! You have once again skirted the issue that I stated that the motorglider was a threat to my revenue. I asked you to produce where I had stated that remark and even offered a deal that would require a penalty. You have continued to ignore the issue and not produce the facts. Me, on the other hand would have gladly gone away for 60 days as offered had I made the comments that you said that I did. Mr. Fitch, my experience speaks for itself, as I stated I have flown many gliders, including motorgliders and I certainly know the difference between Purist flights and Motorglider flights, it's like apples and oranges, they aren't the same. I am glad that I have captured your imagination. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > > > > Hey Not So Purist Bobby, here are your OWN words. You use the words "my revenue" whereas Jon clearly stated "your club's revenue":
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Eric, I have flown with MG pilots, there is more to MG's than convenience, and you still ignore the opinion that there is a difference between the two paradigms. Yes, I do like enlightening you MG and sustainer guys, your skewed justification and lack of acknowledging the differences amuses me, I still laugh! Now at least the sustainer guys contribute to the club when they are towed, 40-60 bucks helps the club with the overall operating expenses. Does you club charge the self launch pilot for use of the field or do they just get in their self launch and depart and go back home for an early dinner and pack their ship away? I think that or club will start charging a field use for self launch gliders, say 15 bucks for each self launch departure, after all we must pay the rent and fuel bill for the tractor that mows the strip. Now I know that , "The Bum", is going to get bent out of shape on this idea, but if he comes to Vero I will pay the fee for his use of the field. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Tom
> > > > > > > > I clearly indicated that Jon used the words "your club's revenue", so if Not So Purist Bobby has a beef he should have read Jon's post more accurately, or at least read it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Tom
> > > > > > > The post that Mr. Fitch posted made reference to money going into Bob's pocket and a threat to my revenue. Mr. Fitch has yet to acknowledge the implications or the statement. When asked to produce such statement he has been void of candor and skirts the issue or statement! I am sure that Mr. Fitch is a credible individual but in this case something is missing.. Dan went to the trouble of reviewing all of the post and set the record straight, the facts speak for themselves. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > Hey Bobby, you LIE - Jon made NO SUCH CLAIM! You should repost Jon's exact words before going any further - I ALREADY HAVE!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tom
> > > > > Perfect example, the Lobotomy does not always work! Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > Hey Boobby, you made a claim that you CAN'T back up (SURPRISE!) - I agree that your lobotomy failed.
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> > > Uncle Tom, control yourself, you are making the motorglider guys look bad. Old Bob, The Purist
> > Hey Boobby, you made a libelous claim against Jon, now BACK IT UP! You make tow pilots look bad...
> Uncle Tom, we hope you are doing better and adjusting to the new treatments of ECT, it is much more modern in technology and effectiveness in treating symptoms like Motorglider Madness. Electroconvulsive therapy may just go beyond electric sailplane therapy and move on over to the carbon producing platforms like the 31 and 26. Hope it works for you. Old Bob, The Purist