On 2023-12-22 17:20, Dave Royal wrote:
> According to the New York Times, this dispute has attracted the attention
> of the US Justice Department, the Federal Trade Commission, and the Senate
> Judiciary subcommittee on antitrust:
>
> Apple’s Newest Headache: An App That Upended Its Control Over Messaging
>
> <https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/22/technology/apple-iphone-beeper-mini.html?unlocked_article_code=1.H00.i-Lc.z_aripkZQYXo&hpgrp=ar-abar&smid=url-share>

iPhones are interoperable with Android to the limits of the country club
fence - and that is sufficient. With Apple adding RCS next year this is
all on the way to the moot bucket.

> OTOH I read a few days ago that some 'US lawmakers' were complaining that
> the EU was interfering in US tech companies by introducing burdensome
> regulations:
>
> <https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-lawmakers-urge-biden-probe-eu-targeting-tech-firms-letter-2023-12-18/>

Congress has trouble figuring out who to please and who to be angry at.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Beeper's iMessage Connection Software Open Sourced. What Happens Next?
<https://m.slashdot.org/story/422965>

That might tempt hackers and script-kiddies to come up with new ways to do
what Beeper did ;)

I would have thought Apple might bring forward their RCS plans to get this
story out of the news. Probably, though, they'll stick to "as little as
possible, as late as possible". And maybe "only in the Europe".

I wonder how many iPhone users in Europe like me don't use iMessage at all
and just use WhatsApp? (Or similar, though WA's the most popular here.)

--
(Remove numerics from email address)

Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote:
> Beeper's iMessage Connection Software Open Sourced. What Happens Next?
> <https://m.slashdot.org/story/422965>
>
> That might tempt hackers and script-kiddies to come up with new ways to do
> what Beeper did ;)
>
> I would have thought Apple might bring forward their RCS plans to get this
> story out of the news. Probably, though, they'll stick to "as little as
> possible, as late as possible". And maybe "only in the Europe".
>
> I wonder how many iPhone users in Europe like me don't use iMessage at all
> and just use WhatsApp? (Or similar, though WA's the most popular here.)

Here in The Netherlands everyone uses WhatsApp. Anything else is
noise and iMessage isn't even that. From others, I uderstand that the
situation is the same in most - if not all - of the rest of Europe.

There used to be a time when Apple users used FaceTime amongst
themselves, but since a long time ago, most text IM platforms have added
video calling and I haven't heard anyone mention FaceTime since.

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote

>> <https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/22/technology/apple-iphone-beeper-mini.html?unlocked_article_code=1.H00.i-Lc.z_aripkZQYXo&hpgrp=ar-abar&smid=url-share>
>
> iPhones are interoperable with Android to the limits of the country club
> fence - and that is sufficient. With Apple adding RCS next year this is
> all on the way to the moot bucket.

The fact that *the LAST THING Apple wants it to interoperate with Android*,
the ONLY WAY it's going to happen is if a large governing body makes them.

Hence... I will respectfully disagree with Alan Browne (who is on record,
by the way, for many times saying there is no such thing as the walled
garden) as Alan seems to characterize the "walled garden" as a "country
club" that you can get into if you pay enough money (i.e., pay Apple tax).

While it's not surprising that Alan Browne gloats that doing even the
simplest things on iOS devices costs more (e.g., OBD scanning for one),
what's inconsistent about Alan Browne's arguments is that he's on record
for proclaiming that Apple devices costs less than Android in the long run.

How can that be?

If Apple imposes a "country club tax" on even the simplest of
functionalities, how can it logically be that Apple devices are cheaper?

HINT: They're not. They're the most expensive common ecosystem out there.
The poor Apple users are so desperate to recoup some of those tremendous
losses that they're literally desperate to re-sell their old iPhones.

Nobody on Android does that because they're not desperate like iOS users
are to recoup the huge losses in total cost of ownership of Apple devices.

>> OTOH I read a few days ago that some 'US lawmakers' were complaining that
>> the EU was interfering in US tech companies by introducing burdensome
>> regulations:
>>
>> <https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-lawmakers-urge-biden-probe-eu-targeting-tech-firms-letter-2023-12-18/>
>
> Congress has trouble figuring out who to please and who to be angry at.

Despite the lack of grammar of the iKooks, the United States has a
fundamentally more lenient attitude toward controlling the output of
private companies (which in some ways is a good thing, in others... bad).

Apple is publicly on record (via the Epic depositions) for saying that they
would NEVER integrate messaging with Android (the reasons were stated by
Apple execs that kids are the main driver of the blue:green bubble phobia).

Just as Apple is on record for never integrating with common platforms
(such as Linux), Apple is factually known to be completely against
interoperability with Android - which is where the US Congress comes in.

The fact that the LAST THING Apple wants it to interoperate with Android,
the ONLY WAY it's going to happen is if a large governing body makes them.

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote

> Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote:
>> Beeper's iMessage Connection Software Open Sourced. What Happens Next?
>> <https://m.slashdot.org/story/422965>
>>
>> That might tempt hackers and script-kiddies to come up with new ways to do
>> what Beeper did ;)
>>
>> I would have thought Apple might bring forward their RCS plans to get this
>> story out of the news. Probably, though, they'll stick to "as little as
>> possible, as late as possible". And maybe "only in the Europe".
>>
>> I wonder how many iPhone users in Europe like me don't use iMessage at all
>> and just use WhatsApp? (Or similar, though WA's the most popular here.)
>
> Here in The Netherlands everyone uses WhatsApp. Anything else is
> noise and iMessage isn't even that. From others, I uderstand that the
> situation is the same in most - if not all - of the rest of Europe.
>
> There used to be a time when Apple users used FaceTime amongst
> themselves, but since a long time ago, most text IM platforms have added
> video calling and I haven't heard anyone mention FaceTime since.

My wife uses WhatsApp video calling to Germany from the USA all the time,
not because she can't use FaceTime on her iPad, but because they can't (as
they're on a variety of platforms, mostly Android as most of the world is).

I agree with anyone who states a sensibly logical viewpoint, and hence I
disagree with Alan Browne (for the reasons previously stated) in favor of
agreeing with both Dave Royal and Frank Slootweg - which is that the
brouhaha over Apple doing everything they can NOT to integrate with Android
mostly affects those who don't primarily communicate using WhatsApp (or, I
guess, WeChat in China - but I'm unfamiliar with Chinese implementations).

I visit relatives in Germany all the time where EVERY ONE of the younger
generation uses WhatsApp just as both Dave & Frank use across the Pond.

Open sourcing the Beeper code is, in my opinion, a good thing, as it will
allow others to do what has already been done to utilize Google's YouTube
<https://newpipe.net/>
And the FOSS Google Play Store app that talks to Google's own repository
<https://aurorastore.org/>
Simply by using the public APIs in an open-source app that everyone knows
what the code is (and which can't be challenged on legal grounds).

Notice the sheer beauty of these open source apps which use the public APIs
that Google can't stop them from using - where the user benefits greatly.

That's the whole point.

Both Google and Apple have no intention of benefiting the user.
The open source community does.

Hence I applaud the attempt to open source the beeper code as what might
result is what happened with the FOSS YouTube & FOSS Google Play Store apps
(both of which I use every single day for functionality par excellence).

On 2023-12-24, Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote:
>
> Beeper's iMessage Connection Software Open Sourced. What Happens Next?
> <https://m.slashdot.org/story/422965>
>
> That might tempt hackers and script-kiddies to come up with new ways
> to do what Beeper did ;)

Too late. Apple is already securing their servers against such attempts,
which is why Beeper is dead in the water as of now.

> I would have thought Apple might bring forward their RCS plans to get
> this story out of the news.

Apple has indeed already announced RCS support. And there's no
indication Apple cares about the news rather than securing iMessage
against potential abusers and spammers.

> I wonder how many iPhone users in Europe like me don't use iMessage at
> all and just use WhatsApp? (Or similar, though WA's the most popular
> here.)

Many. This obviously isn't about them though. It's about a bunch of
Android users trying to use iMessage without Apple devices.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote

> This obviously isn't about them though. It's about a bunch of
> Android users trying to use iMessage without Apple devices.

Having studied Apple's court cases over the years, I respectfully disagree.

While the iKooks missed the point of the EU & Congress potentially getting
involved, and also in why Beeper might want to donate the code to the open
source community - what's important to note is the facts of the matter.

Apple is on record (from the Epic deposition) of telling the truth - where
they were legally required NOT to lie - as to what their real intentions
were with respect to integrating their messaging with that of Android.

Apple had said at that time they had NO INTENTION OF EVER interoperating
with Android messaging - and Apple even clearly stated why they won't.

Apple clearly stated in those now-public documents that they would lose
their messaging walled-garden lock particularly on the young customer base.

The fact is... *Apple NEVER had intentions of interoperating with Android*.

Hence, excuses by Apple for killing Beeper are false (as Apple historically
has only told the truth when forced to do so under oath in a court of law).
--
The truth (shocking, I know) is that Apple has absolutely no intent to ever
interoperate with Android messaging - and Beeper is just one case of it.

On 2023-12-24 10:53, Wally J wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote
>
>> This obviously isn't about them though. It's about a bunch of
>> Android users trying to use iMessage without Apple devices.
>
> Having studied Apple's court cases over the years, I respectfully disagree.
>
> While the iKooks missed the point of the EU & Congress potentially getting
> involved, and also in why Beeper might want to donate the code to the open
> source community - what's important to note is the facts of the matter.
>
> Apple is on record (from the Epic deposition) of telling the truth - where
> they were legally required NOT to lie - as to what their real intentions
> were with respect to integrating their messaging with that of Android.
>
> Apple had said at that time they had NO INTENTION OF EVER interoperating
> with Android messaging - and Apple even clearly stated why they won't.

There is no such thing as "Android messaging".

>
> Apple clearly stated in those now-public documents that they would lose
> their messaging walled-garden lock particularly on the young customer base.
>
> The fact is... *Apple NEVER had intentions of interoperating with Android*.

iOS already interoperates with Android on many, many messaging platforms.

>
> Hence, excuses by Apple for killing Beeper are false (as Apple historically
> has only told the truth when forced to do so under oath in a court of law).

Apple has no obligation to arrange their products for the benefit of
other companies.

Dave Royal wrote:

>From: "Dave Royal" <dave@dave123royal.com>
>Subject: Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage
>protocol Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 08:18:48 -0000 (UTC)
>Message-ID: <um8ph8$2gehq$1@dont-email.me>
>Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android
>Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
>User-Agent: PyKiN 0.5 (Android)

What is this PyKin newsreader you have? I have not been able to find
it on Google Play or the internet.

On 2024-01-09 02:50:49 +0000, badgolferman said:
> Dave Royal wrote:
>>
>> From: "Dave Royal" <dave@dave123royal.com>
>> Subject: Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage
>> protocol Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 08:18:48 -0000 (UTC)
>> Message-ID: <um8ph8$2gehq$1@dont-email.me>
>> Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android
>> Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
>> User-Agent: PyKiN 0.5 (Android)
>
> What is this PyKin newsreader you have? I have not been able to find
> it on Google Play or the internet.

It's a custom-made newsreader. Quoting another of Dave Royal's posts
back in June 2023 ...

"I wrote it, in Python using Kivy, to handle Mozilla's
news server, now closed down. It's incomplete, and
_v e r y_ slow. I recently started using it again
because my previous Android newsreader could no
longer quote properly. It's far too slow for release."

On 1/8/24 8:27 PM, Your Name wrote:
>On 2024-01-09 02:50:49 +0000, badgolferman said:

>> What is this PyKin newsreader you have? I have not been able to find
>> it on Google Play or the internet.

>It's a custom-made newsreader. Quoting another of Dave Royal's posts
>back in June 2023 ...
>
> "I wrote it, in Python using Kivy, to handle Mozilla's
> news server, now closed down. It's incomplete, and
> _v e r y_ slow. I recently started using it again
> because my previous Android newsreader could no
> longer quote properly. It's far too slow for release."

If you want an Android newsreader give PhoNews a try. I got it in the Play
Store. I'm currently posting with it using my Amazon Fire HD10+ tablet.
It's a bit of a PITA to use but better than nothing. My old favorite
Groundhog still reads Ok but quotes poorly on this tablet and completely
loses its transmit capability on later Android versions. Likewise my
NewsGroup reader. PhoNews also is allowed and works on my unmodified
Chromebook (which doesn't allow sideloading for security reasons)...