On 5/31/2023 1:44 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
>> On 5/30/2023 8:28 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject long
>>>> ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start unassisted in
>>>> the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr Brandt kept insisting
>>>> that a diesel engine can burn any liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his
>>>> California comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
>>>> zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).
>>> There is a spec for that, it's called the "cloud point". Last time
>>> I
>>> knew anything about it the minimum requirement varied from winter to
>>> summer. It certainly is possible to cool diesel fuel to the point that
>>> it can't be pumped.
>>
>> Well, that's true of any liquid. Or any gas, for that matter.
>
> Helium?

I see that helium has to also be pressurized to solidify. So OK, it's
got an additional requirement. Any other exceptions?

--
- Frank Krygowski

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 8:48:30 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/31/2023 10:22 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 8:03:24 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 5/31/2023 9:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 5:28:59 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/30/2023 4:59 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 May 2023 11:48:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 29 May 2023 16:59:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas
>>>>>>>>>> station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to
>>>>>>>>>> know where you can recharge.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ICE also have their problems with cold temperatures:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "How We Drive a Car at -50°C (-58°F) | Yakutia, Siberia"
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH6r6J3WsDk>
>>>>>>>>> "With temperatures dropping as low as -70°C, an unprotected car
>>>>>>>>> freezes within minutes."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, nobody I know lives in Siberia :-) But in Bangor Maine it used
>>>>>>>> to get cold enough that you needed a "heat tape" on your outdoor
>>>>>>>> kerosene line and if you parked outside a "block heater" was a good
>>>>>>>> investment. If you wanted to start your car in the morning.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject long
>>>>>>> ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start unassisted in
>>>>>>> the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr Brandt kept insisting
>>>>>>> that a diesel engine can burn any liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his
>>>>>>> California comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
>>>>>>> zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).
>>>>>> There is a spec for that, it's called the "cloud point". Last time I
>>>>>> knew anything about it the minimum requirement varied from winter to
>>>>>> summer. It certainly is possible to cool diesel fuel to the point that
>>>>>> it can't be pumped.
>>>>>
>>>>> Winter and Summer diesel fuels are different and it takes very
>>>>> extreme cold for a diesel properly fueled to not start and run.
>>>>>
>>>> Without a tank and/or line heater you would be wrong.
>>
>>>
>>> What sort of heavy transportation diesel truck is not equipped with
>>> these? You aren't going to plow your field but snowplows are diesel and
>>> they work in the worst weather. If the country came to a stop in cold
>>> weather many places like Wyoming, Idaho and Montana would not exist.
>>>
>> The problem is most noticed in pickup trucks and German sedans.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Anti-gel cetane automotive boosters is used in place of the heating in
> the diesel automobiles. It isn't very expensive and is quite effective in
> sub-zero temperatures. Isn't this a topic drift from one of the Stupid 4
> saying that gasoline car performance is reduced the tested 20% drop in
> range of the electric vehicle which is further reduced by needing to turn
> the heater on? In the first place, gasoline performance is NOT effected
> after the motor warms up (in fact the cold air is denser and increases
> performance slightly) and secondly, heating for the passengers is waste
> heat that doesn't affect mileage. (Well, today many vehicles are warmed
> initially with an electric heater booster.)
>
> Gasoline cars which are the overwhelming majority of cars made world wide
> are only effected by sub zero temperatures at initial startup. Since
> Moscow is wall to wall traffic I wouldn't worry about the so-called
> reduction of performance of ICE's. Funny how Tesla's aren't popular
> around the world. The ONLY advantage of the Mustang E is that it is quiet.
>

You’ve heard of Norway? It’s not warm it also famously has very high EV
adoption rates including Tesla the Model 3 had some issues I believe with
its heating system in fact multiple almost as if Tesla didn’t test it….

But fact remains EV are popular there, and yes EV loose range in the 15/20%
mark but realistically doesn’t seem to bother owners, probably as most
folks don’t drive huge distances all the time so it’s largely a non issue.

Note that ICE cars if used around town will hit that sort of drop as well
all that energy heating up engine and cabin, which for EV if you have home
charger you can do at home ie pre heat batteries and cabin.

I personally don’t notice the difference as I don’t drive short distances
around town and the old Volvo has impressive heating system so cabin
reaches temp quickly and engine soon after, particularly as it’s often
within a few miles up to 70mph or so ie motorways or similar.

I do note that I’d probably get quite poor efficiency from a EV as no pre
heating etc, and lot of motorway work.

Roger Merriman

On 5/31/2023 11:05 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 31 May 2023 10:51:58 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 5/31/2023 10:39 AM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 31 May 2023 10:03:17 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/31/2023 9:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 5:28:59 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/30/2023 4:59 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 May 2023 11:48:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 29 May 2023 16:59:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas
>>>>>>>>>> station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to
>>>>>>>>>> know where you can recharge.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ICE also have their problems with cold temperatures:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "How We Drive a Car at -50°C (-58°F) | Yakutia, Siberia"
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH6r6J3WsDk>
>>>>>>>>> "With temperatures dropping as low as -70°C, an unprotected car
>>>>>>>>> freezes within minutes."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, nobody I know lives in Siberia :-) But in Bangor Maine it used
>>>>>>>> to get cold enough that you needed a "heat tape" on your outdoor
>>>>>>>> kerosene line and if you parked outside a "block heater" was a good
>>>>>>>> investment. If you wanted to start your car in the morning.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject long
>>>>>>> ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start unassisted in
>>>>>>> the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr Brandt kept insisting
>>>>>>> that a diesel engine can burn any liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his
>>>>>>> California comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
>>>>>>> zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).
>>>>>> There is a spec for that, it's called the "cloud point". Last time I
>>>>>> knew anything about it the minimum requirement varied from winter to
>>>>>> summer. It certainly is possible to cool diesel fuel to the point that
>>>>>> it can't be pumped.
>>>>>
>>>>> Winter and Summer diesel fuels are different and it takes very extreme cold for a diesel properly fueled to not start and run.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Without a tank and/or line heater you would be wrong.
>>>
>>> The usual starting problem with any internal combustion engine in cold
>>> weather isn't just the fuel. In severe cold the oil becomes so
>>> "stiff" that the starter can barely turn the engine over. This is the
>>> problem that the "engine heater" is meant to overcome.
>>>
>>
>> Gasoline vehicles here use block heaters. Goes inline in the
>> coolant system.
>>
>> Diesels need a fuel heater else jello won't move to the engine.
>
> True, depending on temperatures. But I've had the experience of a
> diesels not starting due to "stiff" oil when the fuel was still
> liquid.
>
> Somewhere I read that 10 degrees (F) was about the jelling point for
> diesel.
>

I've been drafted to help start them in the cold but I have
never owned a diesel. A Corvair parked up against one with a
couple of bicycle cartons blocking the other sides helps as
does a good battery and my nice heavy gauge all copper cables.

As I understand it Midwest USA winter diesel fuel has
additives to extend the theoretical gel point down somewhat
in practice.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/31/2023 12:44 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
>> On 5/30/2023 8:28 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject long
>>>> ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start unassisted in
>>>> the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr Brandt kept insisting
>>>> that a diesel engine can burn any liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his
>>>> California comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
>>>> zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).
>>> There is a spec for that, it's called the "cloud point". Last time
>>> I
>>> knew anything about it the minimum requirement varied from winter to
>>> summer. It certainly is possible to cool diesel fuel to the point that
>>> it can't be pumped.
>>
>> Well, that's true of any liquid. Or any gas, for that matter.
>
> Helium?
>

Good call.

Liquid helium is an actual commodity, -452F.
My brother the scientist uses it in imaging equipment:
https://www.siemens-healthineers.com/perspectives/mso-helium-and-mri-technology

In theory it can be a solid but that is not proved.

https://www.rsc.org/periodic-table/element/2/helium

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/31/2023 12:56 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 31 May 2023 10:03:17 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 5/31/2023 9:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> Winter and Summer diesel fuels are different and it takes very extreme cold for a diesel properly fueled to not start and run.
>
>> Without a tank and/or line heater you would be wrong.
>
> Generally true. I drove a 1980 Dodge D50 diesel 4x4 pickup (made by
> Mitsubishi) for 230,000 miles and therefore have some cold weather
> diesel experience:
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/Dodge-D50/>
> Wonderful pickup truck. It came stock with a block heater fitted into
> a freeze plug hole with just a power cord hanging out. No fuse, no
> electronics, no thermostat light. At 32F (0C) and below, #2 diesel
> turns to Jell-O. The fuel pump will move the Jell-O, but not easily,
> especially if the fuel filter is clogged with frozen water. Anti-Gel
> additives allegedly work down to -40F (-40C) but from my experience,
> are problematic below about -20F (-29C):
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=diesel+anti+gel&tbm=isch>
> Glow plugs are a must for cold weather starting.
>
> However, the main cold weather problem is not the fuel. It's the
> engine oil. I once stupidly drove to a below freezing mountain top. I
> had to get towed ($$$$) to the nearest heated garage where I changed
> the oil from 30w to 10w30 diesel oil and then waited about 4 hrs for
> the engine to become warm enough to start. Expensive lesson learned.
>
> Incidentally, diesel #1 for cold temperatures is kerosene (#2 diesel
> with most of the wax removed). There are also diesel blends. Diesel
> #2 is the same as heating oil or fuel oil.
> <https://kendrickoil.com/the-differences-between-heating-fuels-kerosene-and-diesel-fuel/>
>
>
>
>
>

Next time, try the heat from an air cooled engine. Plenty of
BTUs depending on the wind.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 12:59:05 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/31/2023 12:44 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
> >
> >> On 5/30/2023 8:28 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject long
> >>>> ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start unassisted in
> >>>> the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr Brandt kept insisting
> >>>> that a diesel engine can burn any liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his
> >>>> California comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
> >>>> zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).
> >>> There is a spec for that, it's called the "cloud point". Last time
> >>> I
> >>> knew anything about it the minimum requirement varied from winter to
> >>> summer. It certainly is possible to cool diesel fuel to the point that
> >>> it can't be pumped.
> >>
> >> Well, that's true of any liquid. Or any gas, for that matter.
> >
> > Helium?
> >
> Good call.
>
> Liquid helium is an actual commodity, -452F.
> My brother the scientist uses it in imaging equipment:
> https://www.siemens-healthineers.com/perspectives/mso-helium-and-mri-technology
>
> In theory it can be a solid but that is not proved.
>
> https://www.rsc.org/periodic-table/element/2/helium
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Hydrogel freezes to a liquid near absolute zero.

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:

> On 5/31/2023 12:44 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/30/2023 8:28 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I had a long discussion here with Mr Brandt on that subject long
>>>>> ago. I mentioned that diesels in Wisconsin won't start unassisted in
>>>>> the cold as the fuel gels in the line/tank. Mr Brandt kept insisting
>>>>> that a diesel engine can burn any liquid fuel and it seemed beyond his
>>>>> California comprehension that diesel turns to a semisolid jello around
>>>>> zero F (winter drops well below that regularly here).
>>>> There is a spec for that, it's called the "cloud point". Last time
>>>> I
>>>> knew anything about it the minimum requirement varied from winter to
>>>> summer. It certainly is possible to cool diesel fuel to the point that
>>>> it can't be pumped.
>>>
>>> Well, that's true of any liquid. Or any gas, for that matter.
>>
>> Helium?
>>
>
> Good call.
>
> Liquid helium is an actual commodity, -452F.
> My brother the scientist uses it in imaging equipment:
> https://www.siemens-healthineers.com/perspectives/mso-helium-and-mri-technology
>
> In theory it can be a solid but that is not proved.
>
> https://www.rsc.org/periodic-table/element/2/helium

Cool it enough and it undergoes a phase change to a liquid with,
apparently, zero viscosity -- a fluid flow analog for superconductivity.

https://cryo.gsfc.nasa.gov/introduction/liquid_helium.html#Superfluid%20Helium

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 1:59:05 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 3:24:08 PM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
> > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 8:05:47 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 5/29/2023 9:39 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>> On 5/29/2023 9:13 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> So, with so many computer gurus out there today, I expect
> > >>>>> that there
> > >>>>> are many other vehicles driving around with "illegal"
> > >>>>> emmisions.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> One only hopes.
> > >>>
> > >>> You hope for more emissions?
> > >>>
> > >>> What the hell! Why?
> > >>>
> > >> As if that small increment matters.
> > >>
> > >> Any wrench in the works of The Administrative State is fine
> > >> by me. Especially by rigidly observing their ridiculous
> > >> protocols (exhaust values when tested) ad absurdum.
> > >
> > > Lithium when exposed to water generates BOTH hydrogen and oxygen. This is
> > > why a battery fire cannot be put out with water. I can hardly wait for
> > > Frank to be gravely injured in a battery fire. Remember, if even ONE of
> > > those AAA cells gets overheated from humidity inside his garage it will
> > > almost surely burn his home down. Once one of the batteries starts on
> > > fire it takes the rest of them with it. Also battery range is severely
> > > effected by very hot or very cold weather. Any bets that Krygowski will
> > > not admit if he has any troubles with his electric car. Hybrids have much
> > > smaller batteries and when they wear our, the replacement batteries cost
> > > more than even good hybrids like the Honda are worth.
> > >
> > In theory as it’s multiple cells any fire will be contained within that
> > cell, it makes news when it doesn’t as EV and in particular Tesla are click
> > bate! Lots of cars catch on fire one of my friends has had it happen twice
> > within 5 years, no EV.
> >
> > Batteries have a operating temperature yes, as do ICE cars, to the best of
> > my knowledge the fall off in range isn’t huge.
> >
> > As long as the batteries are not overheating and have some sort of active
> > cooling hello Nissan leaf! Then the batteries do seem to be lasting. Will
> > they last as long as my car ie 20 years and counting? Maybe not. But it’s a
> > moving target.
> >
> > Roger Merriman
> If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to know where you can recharge.
>
>
> EV Model Range Loss in Freezing Temperatures Estimated or Verified
> Jaguar I-Pace 3% Estimated
> Audi e-tron 8% Estimated
> Tesla Model X 15% Verified
> Tesla Model Y 15% Verified
> Tesla Model 3 17% Verified
> Tesla Model S 19% Verified
> Nissan Leaf 21% Verified
> Hyundai Kona 19% Estimated
> Volkswagen e-Golf 23% Estimated
> BMW i3 24% Estimated
> Ford Mustang Mach-E 30% Verified
> Volkswagen ID.4 30% Verified
> Chevrolet Bolt EV 32% Estimate

What is the average wintertemperature in the Bay area? What is your average daily mileage? Think in solutions not in problems. We have too many of those people. Like Roger mentioned look at Norway. What are they doing.

Lou

On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 11:31:03 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 31 May 2023 07:49:00 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 10:11:00?AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> >> On Fri, 26 May 2023 06:29:07 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> >> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 7:39:57?AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> >> >> On Wed, 24 May 2023 03:59:42 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> >> >> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 10:00:36?AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> >> >> >> On Tue, 23 May 2023 04:22:30 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> >> >> >> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 9:09:43?PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >I haven't mentioned anything about _me_ being fearful. If you dispute
> >> >> >> >> >that, find the post where I said that, and link to it.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> You proclaimed, incorrectly, that people who had guns in their homes
> >> >> >> >> were more likely to get shot.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Stated with links to studies and statistics, dumbass. Your response? "<snivel> no their not".
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Actually gun and ownership and firearm homicide do not necessarily
> >> >> >> coincide.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Arkansas has a gun ownership of 57.9% and a gun homicide rate of
> >> >> >> 3.7/100,000. Idaho has a gun ownership of 56.9% and a homicide rate of
> >> >> >> 1.5. 1% fewer guns and less then half the firearm murders.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> North Dakota has gun ownership of 47.9% and firearm murder rate of
> >> >> >> 1.2./100,000 while Maine has a gun ownership of 22.6 and a homicide
> >> >> >> are of 1.2.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The data is out there. All you have to do is look (:-)
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Nice try jonny, Too bad those numbers don't actually address the issue.
> >> >> > 1- the key phrase is "in the home"
> >> >> > 2 - we aren't talking strictly abut homicides
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I'll leave that there just to see if you actually get it - I'm guessing not.
> >> >> Are you for real?
> >> >>
> >> >> I listed the gun ownership as a percent of the population. You argue
> >> >> that they aren't in the home. So tell us where are these guns owned by
> >> >> the population if not in the home? From above, 57.9% of the population
> >> >> of Arkansas owns a gun. So tell us oh great and noble nitwit, where do
> >> >> you think these guns are kept? Is there some giant locker in each town
> >> >> where everyone stores their gun(s) so that they don't have to carry
> >> >> them home?
> >> >
> >> >As I said, you aren't getting it. Those homicides rates you love to quote aren't only in the home. Nether do they include accidental shootings in the home. That's the point here, oh great and noble nitwit.
> >> >
> >> An interesting comment. Well, lets see... do you understand the word
> >> "homicide"? For your information the dictionary tells us that it
> >> means... "the killing of one person by another". You don't believe
> >> that an accidental killing of a person my another person is a
> >> homicide?
> >
> >It's not legally classified as such, and that's how the rates are determined. An accidental shooting doesn't show up in the homicide rates.
> >
> https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?typed=homicide&type=1
> homicide
> n. the killing of a human being due to the act or omission of another.
> Included among homicides are murder and manslaughter, but not all
> homicides are a crime, particularly when there is a lack of criminal
> intent. Non-criminal homicides include killing in self-defense, a
> misadventure like a hunting ...
>

Oh goody, look who's demonstrating his cut-n-paste skills. Too bad that - as usual for you - you aren't addressing the issue.

First off, as I mentioned to Andrew, I stand corrected over my misinterpretation of the legal classifications of homicide. but that's irrelevant.

The issue - as has been explained to you dozens of times - is that you conflate the overall homicide rate with homicides that occur in the home using weapons kept in that home. That's the correlation Frank has been stating for months now, and his position hasn't changed. Your (possibly deliberate) misstating of his position where you keep trying to use overall homicides rates then accusing him of changing his position when he writes "I didn't write that" is a transparently stupid strawman.

On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 2:49:41 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 1:59:05 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 3:24:08 PM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
> > > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 8:05:47 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >> On 5/29/2023 9:39 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > >>> On 5/29/2023 9:13 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> So, with so many computer gurus out there today, I expect
> > > >>>>> that there
> > > >>>>> are many other vehicles driving around with "illegal"
> > > >>>>> emmisions.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> One only hopes.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> You hope for more emissions?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> What the hell! Why?
> > > >>>
> > > >> As if that small increment matters.
> > > >>
> > > >> Any wrench in the works of The Administrative State is fine
> > > >> by me. Especially by rigidly observing their ridiculous
> > > >> protocols (exhaust values when tested) ad absurdum.
> > > >
> > > > Lithium when exposed to water generates BOTH hydrogen and oxygen. This is
> > > > why a battery fire cannot be put out with water. I can hardly wait for
> > > > Frank to be gravely injured in a battery fire. Remember, if even ONE of
> > > > those AAA cells gets overheated from humidity inside his garage it will
> > > > almost surely burn his home down. Once one of the batteries starts on
> > > > fire it takes the rest of them with it. Also battery range is severely
> > > > effected by very hot or very cold weather. Any bets that Krygowski will
> > > > not admit if he has any troubles with his electric car. Hybrids have much
> > > > smaller batteries and when they wear our, the replacement batteries cost
> > > > more than even good hybrids like the Honda are worth.
> > > >
> > > In theory as it’s multiple cells any fire will be contained within that
> > > cell, it makes news when it doesn’t as EV and in particular Tesla are click
> > > bate! Lots of cars catch on fire one of my friends has had it happen twice
> > > within 5 years, no EV.
> > >
> > > Batteries have a operating temperature yes, as do ICE cars, to the best of
> > > my knowledge the fall off in range isn’t huge.
> > >
> > > As long as the batteries are not overheating and have some sort of active
> > > cooling hello Nissan leaf! Then the batteries do seem to be lasting. Will
> > > they last as long as my car ie 20 years and counting? Maybe not. But it’s a
> > > moving target.
> > >
> > > Roger Merriman
> > If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to know where you can recharge.
> >
> >
> > EV Model Range Loss in Freezing Temperatures Estimated or Verified
> > Jaguar I-Pace 3% Estimated
> > Audi e-tron 8% Estimated
> > Tesla Model X 15% Verified
> > Tesla Model Y 15% Verified
> > Tesla Model 3 17% Verified
> > Tesla Model S 19% Verified
> > Nissan Leaf 21% Verified
> > Hyundai Kona 19% Estimated
> > Volkswagen e-Golf 23% Estimated
> > BMW i3 24% Estimated
> > Ford Mustang Mach-E 30% Verified
> > Volkswagen ID.4 30% Verified
> > Chevrolet Bolt EV 32% Estimate
>
>
> What is the average wintertemperature in the Bay area? What is your average daily mileage? Think in solutions not in problems. We have too many of those people. Like Roger mentioned look at Norway. What are they doing.

I'm not sure what you mean Lou. Today is the second day of this year in which I will be able to ride in a short sleeve jersey and shorts. I will even wear sunburn lotion. Average temperature and average miles means almost nothing since the only thing that keeps me from riding is actual rain. I ride in mist and drizzle. I ride despite awful traffic and I ride for a good part of the year in thermals. Because my condition is deteriorating because of age, my distances and climbs are mostly limited by my waning strength. This came on surprisingly rapidly. So surprising that I went to the doctor to see if there was something wrong with me but I am perfectly healthy. I could probably improve my performance by taking testosterone but I will not do that because it leads to cancer.

On 6/1/2023 4:49 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 1:59:05 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 3:24:08 PM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 8:05:47 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 5/29/2023 9:39 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/29/2023 9:13 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, with so many computer gurus out there today, I expect
>>>>>>>> that there
>>>>>>>> are many other vehicles driving around with "illegal"
>>>>>>>> emmisions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One only hopes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You hope for more emissions?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What the hell! Why?
>>>>>>
>>>>> As if that small increment matters.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any wrench in the works of The Administrative State is fine
>>>>> by me. Especially by rigidly observing their ridiculous
>>>>> protocols (exhaust values when tested) ad absurdum.
>>>>
>>>> Lithium when exposed to water generates BOTH hydrogen and oxygen. This is
>>>> why a battery fire cannot be put out with water. I can hardly wait for
>>>> Frank to be gravely injured in a battery fire. Remember, if even ONE of
>>>> those AAA cells gets overheated from humidity inside his garage it will
>>>> almost surely burn his home down. Once one of the batteries starts on
>>>> fire it takes the rest of them with it. Also battery range is severely
>>>> effected by very hot or very cold weather. Any bets that Krygowski will
>>>> not admit if he has any troubles with his electric car. Hybrids have much
>>>> smaller batteries and when they wear our, the replacement batteries cost
>>>> more than even good hybrids like the Honda are worth.
>>>>
>>> In theory as it’s multiple cells any fire will be contained within that
>>> cell, it makes news when it doesn’t as EV and in particular Tesla are click
>>> bate! Lots of cars catch on fire one of my friends has had it happen twice
>>> within 5 years, no EV.
>>>
>>> Batteries have a operating temperature yes, as do ICE cars, to the best of
>>> my knowledge the fall off in range isn’t huge.
>>>
>>> As long as the batteries are not overheating and have some sort of active
>>> cooling hello Nissan leaf! Then the batteries do seem to be lasting. Will
>>> they last as long as my car ie 20 years and counting? Maybe not. But it’s a
>>> moving target.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>> If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to know where you can recharge.
>>
>>
>> EV Model Range Loss in Freezing Temperatures Estimated or Verified
>> Jaguar I-Pace 3% Estimated
>> Audi e-tron 8% Estimated
>> Tesla Model X 15% Verified
>> Tesla Model Y 15% Verified
>> Tesla Model 3 17% Verified
>> Tesla Model S 19% Verified
>> Nissan Leaf 21% Verified
>> Hyundai Kona 19% Estimated
>> Volkswagen e-Golf 23% Estimated
>> BMW i3 24% Estimated
>> Ford Mustang Mach-E 30% Verified
>> Volkswagen ID.4 30% Verified
>> Chevrolet Bolt EV 32% Estimate
>
>
> What is the average wintertemperature in the Bay area? What is your average daily mileage? Think in solutions not in problems. We have too many of those people. Like Roger mentioned look at Norway. What are they doing.
>
>
>
> Lou
>

Oakland CA record high 104F, record low 26F
Average temps for May are 69F high and 53F low
For January, 58F high, 44F low.

City nearest me is Madison WI for comparison.
Record high same 104F but record low is -37F
Averages for May 69F and 46F
For January, average high 26F, low 11F

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/1/2023 10:47 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 2:49:41 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 1:59:05 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 3:24:08 PM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ... battery range is severely
>>>>> effected by very hot or very cold weather. Any bets that Krygowski will
>>>>> not admit if he has any troubles with his electric car. Hybrids have much
>>>>> smaller batteries and when they wear our, the replacement batteries cost
>>>>> more than even good hybrids like the Honda are worth.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Batteries have a operating temperature yes, as do ICE cars, to the best of
>>>> my knowledge the fall off in range isn’t huge.
>>>>
>>>> As long as the batteries are not overheating and have some sort of active
>>>> cooling hello Nissan leaf! Then the batteries do seem to be lasting. Will
>>>> they last as long as my car ie 20 years and counting? Maybe not. But it’s a
>>>> moving target.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>> If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to know where you can recharge.
>>>
>>>
>>> EV Model Range Loss in Freezing Temperatures Estimated or Verified
>>> Jaguar I-Pace 3% Estimated
>>> Audi e-tron 8% Estimated
>>> Tesla Model X 15% Verified
>>> Tesla Model Y 15% Verified
>>> Tesla Model 3 17% Verified
>>> Tesla Model S 19% Verified
>>> Nissan Leaf 21% Verified
>>> Hyundai Kona 19% Estimated
>>> Volkswagen e-Golf 23% Estimated
>>> BMW i3 24% Estimated
>>> Ford Mustang Mach-E 30% Verified
>>> Volkswagen ID.4 30% Verified
>>> Chevrolet Bolt EV 32% Estimate
>>
>>
>> What is the average wintertemperature in the Bay area? What is your average daily mileage? Think in solutions not in problems. We have too many of those people. Like Roger mentioned look at Norway. What are they doing.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean Lou. Today is the second day of this year in which I will be able to ride in a short sleeve jersey and shorts. ...

Good grief, Tom! What Lou means is your claims that EVs can't handle
weather are false, and they obviously don't apply to the weather where
you live!

The one time change the subject back to bicycling, it's to deflect from
a non-bike argument you started. Sheesh!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 9:08:02 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 6/1/2023 4:49 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 1:59:05 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 3:24:08 PM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 8:05:47 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>> On 5/29/2023 9:39 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/29/2023 9:13 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So, with so many computer gurus out there today, I expect
> >>>>>>>> that there
> >>>>>>>> are many other vehicles driving around with "illegal"
> >>>>>>>> emmisions.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> One only hopes.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You hope for more emissions?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What the hell! Why?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> As if that small increment matters.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Any wrench in the works of The Administrative State is fine
> >>>>> by me. Especially by rigidly observing their ridiculous
> >>>>> protocols (exhaust values when tested) ad absurdum.
> >>>>
> >>>> Lithium when exposed to water generates BOTH hydrogen and oxygen. This is
> >>>> why a battery fire cannot be put out with water. I can hardly wait for
> >>>> Frank to be gravely injured in a battery fire. Remember, if even ONE of
> >>>> those AAA cells gets overheated from humidity inside his garage it will
> >>>> almost surely burn his home down. Once one of the batteries starts on
> >>>> fire it takes the rest of them with it. Also battery range is severely
> >>>> effected by very hot or very cold weather. Any bets that Krygowski will
> >>>> not admit if he has any troubles with his electric car. Hybrids have much
> >>>> smaller batteries and when they wear our, the replacement batteries cost
> >>>> more than even good hybrids like the Honda are worth.
> >>>>
> >>> In theory as it’s multiple cells any fire will be contained within that
> >>> cell, it makes news when it doesn’t as EV and in particular Tesla are click
> >>> bate! Lots of cars catch on fire one of my friends has had it happen twice
> >>> within 5 years, no EV.
> >>>
> >>> Batteries have a operating temperature yes, as do ICE cars, to the best of
> >>> my knowledge the fall off in range isn’t huge.
> >>>
> >>> As long as the batteries are not overheating and have some sort of active
> >>> cooling hello Nissan leaf! Then the batteries do seem to be lasting. Will
> >>> they last as long as my car ie 20 years and counting? Maybe not. But it’s a
> >>> moving target.
> >>>
> >>> Roger Merriman
> >> If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to know where you can recharge.
> >>
> >>
> >> EV Model Range Loss in Freezing Temperatures Estimated or Verified
> >> Jaguar I-Pace 3% Estimated
> >> Audi e-tron 8% Estimated
> >> Tesla Model X 15% Verified
> >> Tesla Model Y 15% Verified
> >> Tesla Model 3 17% Verified
> >> Tesla Model S 19% Verified
> >> Nissan Leaf 21% Verified
> >> Hyundai Kona 19% Estimated
> >> Volkswagen e-Golf 23% Estimated
> >> BMW i3 24% Estimated
> >> Ford Mustang Mach-E 30% Verified
> >> Volkswagen ID.4 30% Verified
> >> Chevrolet Bolt EV 32% Estimate
> >
> >
> > What is the average wintertemperature in the Bay area? What is your average daily mileage? Think in solutions not in problems. We have too many of those people. Like Roger mentioned look at Norway. What are they doing.
> >
> >
> >
> > Lou
> >
> Oakland CA record high 104F, record low 26F
> Average temps for May are 69F high and 53F low
> For January, 58F high, 44F low.
>
> City nearest me is Madison WI for comparison.
> Record high same 104F but record low is -37F
> Averages for May 69F and 46F
> For January, average high 26F, low 11F
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Oakland sits right on the San Francisco bay directly adjacent to the Pacific Ocean an d with the Golden Gate about 15 miles away. That means that the temperatures in Oakland and San Francisco are mediated mostly by the temperature of the Pacific Ocean. While that temperature can vary quite a bit, obviously it isn't going the freeze below the Arctic Circle. It also means that the humidity is usually above 65%. Comparing the temperatures in Oakland to those in Madison accomplishes exactly what? Except for rain days I get to ride all years round though it is seldom comfortable except in July and August. Today was cold all day but one of the first days that when I took off my bike shoes and wool socks that my feet weren't blue and I had to stand under the hot shower for 30 minutes to thaw out. Gee, this must all be because of man-made global warming. This is where Slocomb quotes Michael Mann and Liebermann quotes 75 Democrat articles trying to grab more power to "prove" that climate change is real.

On Thu, 1 Jun 2023 15:02:49 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 9:08:02?AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 6/1/2023 4:49 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 1:59:05 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 3:24:08 PM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> >>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 8:05:47 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>> On 5/29/2023 9:39 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>>>>> On 5/29/2023 9:13 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> So, with so many computer gurus out there today, I expect
>> >>>>>>>> that there
>> >>>>>>>> are many other vehicles driving around with "illegal"
>> >>>>>>>> emmisions.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> One only hopes.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> You hope for more emissions?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> What the hell! Why?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> As if that small increment matters.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Any wrench in the works of The Administrative State is fine
>> >>>>> by me. Especially by rigidly observing their ridiculous
>> >>>>> protocols (exhaust values when tested) ad absurdum.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Lithium when exposed to water generates BOTH hydrogen and oxygen. This is
>> >>>> why a battery fire cannot be put out with water. I can hardly wait for
>> >>>> Frank to be gravely injured in a battery fire. Remember, if even ONE of
>> >>>> those AAA cells gets overheated from humidity inside his garage it will
>> >>>> almost surely burn his home down. Once one of the batteries starts on
>> >>>> fire it takes the rest of them with it. Also battery range is severely
>> >>>> effected by very hot or very cold weather. Any bets that Krygowski will
>> >>>> not admit if he has any troubles with his electric car. Hybrids have much
>> >>>> smaller batteries and when they wear our, the replacement batteries cost
>> >>>> more than even good hybrids like the Honda are worth.
>> >>>>
>> >>> In theory as it’s multiple cells any fire will be contained within that
>> >>> cell, it makes news when it doesn’t as EV and in particular Tesla are click
>> >>> bate! Lots of cars catch on fire one of my friends has had it happen twice
>> >>> within 5 years, no EV.
>> >>>
>> >>> Batteries have a operating temperature yes, as do ICE cars, to the best of
>> >>> my knowledge the fall off in range isn’t huge.
>> >>>
>> >>> As long as the batteries are not overheating and have some sort of active
>> >>> cooling hello Nissan leaf! Then the batteries do seem to be lasting. Will
>> >>> they last as long as my car ie 20 years and counting? Maybe not. But it’s a
>> >>> moving target.
>> >>>
>> >>> Roger Merriman
>> >> If you lose milage in an ICE car you pull off at the next gas station and refill. You have to plan your trip in cold weather to know where you can recharge.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> EV Model Range Loss in Freezing Temperatures Estimated or Verified
>> >> Jaguar I-Pace 3% Estimated
>> >> Audi e-tron 8% Estimated
>> >> Tesla Model X 15% Verified
>> >> Tesla Model Y 15% Verified
>> >> Tesla Model 3 17% Verified
>> >> Tesla Model S 19% Verified
>> >> Nissan Leaf 21% Verified
>> >> Hyundai Kona 19% Estimated
>> >> Volkswagen e-Golf 23% Estimated
>> >> BMW i3 24% Estimated
>> >> Ford Mustang Mach-E 30% Verified
>> >> Volkswagen ID.4 30% Verified
>> >> Chevrolet Bolt EV 32% Estimate
>> >
>> >
>> > What is the average wintertemperature in the Bay area? What is your average daily mileage? Think in solutions not in problems. We have too many of those people. Like Roger mentioned look at Norway. What are they doing.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Lou
>> >
>> Oakland CA record high 104F, record low 26F
>> Average temps for May are 69F high and 53F low
>> For January, 58F high, 44F low.
>>
>> City nearest me is Madison WI for comparison.
>> Record high same 104F but record low is -37F
>> Averages for May 69F and 46F
>> For January, average high 26F, low 11F
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
>Oakland sits right on the San Francisco bay directly radjacent to the Pacific Ocean an d with the Golden Gate about 15 miles away. That means that the temperatures in Oakland and San Francisco are mediated mostly by the temperature of the Pacific Ocean. While that temperature can vary quite a bit, obviously it isn't going the freeze below the Arctic Circle. It also means that the humidity is usually above 65%. Comparing the temperatures in Oakland to those in Madison accomplishes exactly what? Except for rain days I get to ride all years round though it is seldom comfortable except in July and August. Today was cold all day but one of the first days that when I took off my bike shoes and wool socks that my feet weren't blue and I had to stand under the hot shower for 30 minutes to thaw out. Gee, this must all be because of man-made global warming. This is where Slocomb quotes Michael Mann and Liebermann quotes 75 Democrat articles trying to grab more power to "prove" that climate
>change is real.

And Tommy sits there in his little house in SAN LEANDRO trying to
prove that his lies about women in South East Asia are true.

Is this because he is a so called Republican and seeks to emulate his
hero - a god like figure - that commits rape in a department store?
And then bribes the victim to keep quiet by stealing finds from his
business?

--
Cheers,

John B.