djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>In article <7e3ae9db-ca47-451b-aeed-3b56962670ban@googlegroups.com>,
>Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>While you _are_ correct in noting that support for Ukraine is not without risk -
>>and not just the United States, but also its allies, including Canada,
>>are supplying
>>Ukraine with arms for use against Russian forces...
>
>(Hal Heydt)
>Don't forget that the Russian forces are also "supplying"
>equipment to Ukraine with arms for use against Russian forces.
>
>The recent "regrouping" left (according to one report) some 35
>tanks, 40 APCs and at least one ammo dump behind and Ukraine is
>putting at least some of the tanks back in service for their own
>forces. One presumes with new paint jobs to reduce the chances
>of fraticidal attacks.

All they need to do is paint over the 'Z'.

Pictures of the captured and destroyed Russian kit:

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html

Daily battle summaries:

https://www.understandingwar.org/

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 7:44:14 AM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>> Considering that the majority of asylum seekers _don't_ come from
>> Mexico, I'm not sure what your point is...
>
>Refugees originating from Guatemala have tended to approach the
>United States *through* Mexico.

Except most of the refugees are from Venezuela. That's a long hike
through Mexico.

On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 11:40:30 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 7:21:16 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
> > But, the Ukraine has no known nuclear weapons. Russia has a lot of
> > them. Including the nuclear weapons Ukraine turned over to Russia in
> > the not too distant past.
> >
> > If I was Ukraine, I would not advance my troops across the border.
> The Ukraine has no intention of doing so (unless you count Donetsk,
> Luhansk, and the Crimea as parts of Russia) as that would immediately
> end any aid they recieve from Western countries.
> I can assure you that the governments of the Free World, even if they
> may be courageous and bold in this instance, are not crazy.
> If regime change happens to Russia, it will have to come from within
> Russia itself.

Unofficially, a lot of things on the Russian side of the border have
Blowed Up Real Good in the past 7 months. Ukraine hasn't said
that they are responsible.

They haven't said they aren't either.

pt

In article <2012fb05-b181-460f-b209-7b56582ac7d3n@googlegroups.com>,
pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 11:40:30 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 7:21:16 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>
>> > But, the Ukraine has no known nuclear weapons. Russia has a lot of
>> > them. Including the nuclear weapons Ukraine turned over to Russia in
>> > the not too distant past.
>> >
>> > If I was Ukraine, I would not advance my troops across the border.
>> The Ukraine has no intention of doing so (unless you count Donetsk,
>> Luhansk, and the Crimea as parts of Russia) as that would immediately
>> end any aid they recieve from Western countries.
>> I can assure you that the governments of the Free World, even if they
>> may be courageous and bold in this instance, are not crazy.
>> If regime change happens to Russia, it will have to come from within
>> Russia itself.
>
>Unofficially, a lot of things on the Russian side of the border have
>Blowed Up Real Good in the past 7 months. Ukraine hasn't said
>that they are responsible.
>
>They haven't said they aren't either.

They did--after a while--claim the damage to that air base in
Crimea. Of course, one could argue about whether or not that
counts as "on the Russian side of the border."

On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 13:45:32 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>>On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 7:44:14 AM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>
>>> Considering that the majority of asylum seekers _don't_ come from
>>> Mexico, I'm not sure what your point is...
>>
>>Refugees originating from Guatemala have tended to approach the
>>United States *through* Mexico.
>
>Except most of the refugees are from Venezuela. That's a long hike
>through Mexico.

Those trafficked to Martha's Vinyard with promises of jobs and housing
may now be eligible for Visas for the victims of trafficking. And so
eventual citizenship. Way to go DeSantis!

Has anyone else notice that Trump's claim in 2016/17 about the Dems
busing migrants from city to city has now become reality -- thanks to
Republican governors?

Does anyone else wonder when Texas and Florida (in particular) will be
declared "rogue States" and subjected to sanctions? Or those harboring
the groups charged with knowingly attempting to disrupt Congress on
1/6/21 "State sponsors of terrorism"?

We have the terminology. We just need to apply it appropriately.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 20:21:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 9/20/2022 7:48 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 2:23:31 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>
>>> Don't stand next to the guy throwing fecal matter at an armed man.
>>
>> I'm sorry, who is it again who is gratuitously and recklessly attacking Russia?
>>
>> As I recall, Ukraine is *fighting for its survival* after Russia chose to invade it.
>>
>> While you _are_ correct in noting that support for Ukraine is not without risk -
>> and not just the United States, but also its allies, including Canada, are supplying
>> Ukraine with arms for use against Russian forces...
>>
>> I mean, it really boils down to: are Ukrainians people, or are only Americans
>> people who have the right to be free?
>>
>> Even in this age of nuclear weapons, as the Cold War demonstrated, aggression
>> needs to be met with firm resolve and not appeasement.
>>
>> John Savard
>
>But, the Ukraine has no known nuclear weapons. Russia has a lot of
>them. Including the nuclear weapons Ukraine turned over to Russia in
>the not too distant past.

Nonsense.

Just because they are stationary and currently used (or not used, due
to electric grid disruption) to generate electicity doesn't mean they
can't be made to go "boom".

If the wind is blowing East, Russia would be affected. But, of course,
eventually so would the USA and Western Europe. What goes around does,
indeed, come around.

>If I was Ukraine, I would not advance my troops across the border.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 18:46:59 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 9/20/2022 6:21 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 9/20/2022 7:48 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 2:23:31 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> Don't stand next to the guy throwing fecal matter at an armed man.
>>>
>>> I'm sorry, who is it again who is gratuitously and recklessly
>>> attacking Russia?
>>>
>>> As I recall, Ukraine is *fighting for its survival* after Russia chose
>>> to invade it.
>>>
>>> While you _are_ correct in noting that support for Ukraine is not
>>> without risk -
>>> and not just the United States, but also its allies, including Canada,
>>> are supplying
>>> Ukraine with arms for use against Russian forces...
>>>
>>> I mean, it really boils down to: are Ukrainians people, or are only
>>> Americans
>>> people who have the right to be free?
>>>
>>> Even in this age of nuclear weapons, as the Cold War demonstrated,
>>> aggression
>>> needs to be met with firm resolve and not appeasement.
>>>
>>> John Savard
>>
>> But, the Ukraine has no known nuclear weapons.  Russia has a lot of
>> them.  Including the nuclear weapons Ukraine turned over to Russia in
>> the not too distant past.
>>
>> If I was Ukraine, I would not advance my troops across the border.
>>
>Which border? There are parts of Ukraine that have been occupied for
>almost a decade.

The recognized international border with Russia.

Liberating occupied territory is not an attack on the Motherland.

Or, at least, will not be recognized as such by the rest of the world.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 06:54:57 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 11:40:30 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 7:21:16 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>
>> > But, the Ukraine has no known nuclear weapons. Russia has a lot of
>> > them. Including the nuclear weapons Ukraine turned over to Russia in
>> > the not too distant past.
>> >
>> > If I was Ukraine, I would not advance my troops across the border.
>> The Ukraine has no intention of doing so (unless you count Donetsk,
>> Luhansk, and the Crimea as parts of Russia) as that would immediately
>> end any aid they recieve from Western countries.
>> I can assure you that the governments of the Free World, even if they
>> may be courageous and bold in this instance, are not crazy.
>> If regime change happens to Russia, it will have to come from within
>> Russia itself.
>
>Unofficially, a lot of things on the Russian side of the border have
>Blowed Up Real Good in the past 7 months. Ukraine hasn't said
>that they are responsible.
>
>They haven't said they aren't either.

They aren't terrorists.

Terrorists love to claim credit for their work. It is a compulsion
with them. Sometimes they even claim it when they didn't do it.

Governments are under no obligation to do so.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On 9/21/2022 9:37 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 13:45:32 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
> wrote:
>
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>>> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 7:44:14 AM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>
>>>> Considering that the majority of asylum seekers _don't_ come from
>>>> Mexico, I'm not sure what your point is...
>>>
>>> Refugees originating from Guatemala have tended to approach the
>>> United States *through* Mexico.
>>
>> Except most of the refugees are from Venezuela. That's a long hike
>> through Mexico.
>
> Those trafficked to Martha's Vinyard with promises of jobs and housing
> may now be eligible for Visas for the victims of trafficking. And so
> eventual citizenship. Way to go DeSantis!
>
From what I've read they were all in the US legally seeking asylum
before being lured by false promises into being shipped off out of state.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 9/21/2022 9:43 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 18:46:59 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> On 9/20/2022 6:21 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 9/20/2022 7:48 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 2:23:31 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> Don't stand next to the guy throwing fecal matter at an armed man.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sorry, who is it again who is gratuitously and recklessly
>>>> attacking Russia?
>>>>
>>>> As I recall, Ukraine is *fighting for its survival* after Russia chose
>>>> to invade it.
>>>>
>>>> While you _are_ correct in noting that support for Ukraine is not
>>>> without risk -
>>>> and not just the United States, but also its allies, including Canada,
>>>> are supplying
>>>> Ukraine with arms for use against Russian forces...
>>>>
>>>> I mean, it really boils down to: are Ukrainians people, or are only
>>>> Americans
>>>> people who have the right to be free?
>>>>
>>>> Even in this age of nuclear weapons, as the Cold War demonstrated,
>>>> aggression
>>>> needs to be met with firm resolve and not appeasement.
>>>>
>>>> John Savard
>>>
>>> But, the Ukraine has no known nuclear weapons.  Russia has a lot of
>>> them.  Including the nuclear weapons Ukraine turned over to Russia in
>>> the not too distant past.
>>>
>>> If I was Ukraine, I would not advance my troops across the border.
>>>
>> Which border? There are parts of Ukraine that have been occupied for
>> almost a decade.
>
> The recognized international border with Russia.
>
> Liberating occupied territory is not an attack on the Motherland.
>
> Or, at least, will not be recognized as such by the rest of the world.

So Russia will be okay with Ukraine liberating Crimea? o_O

My point with this is that it doesn't matter one whit what Ukraine's
suppliers are okay with Ukraine doing. Personally I don't think Ukraine
intends to invade what _they_ recognize as Russian territory. Blow shit
up in it, yes, but no regular forces setting foot or tread in it.

Not that that will stop Putin using the claim that Ukraine is invading
Russia to justify whatever bit of nastiness he's thinking of these days.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 9/21/2022 8:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 9/20/2022 7:48 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>
>> But, the Ukraine has no known nuclear weapons. Russia has a lot of
>> them. Including the nuclear weapons Ukraine turned over to Russia in
>> the not too distant past.
>
> In return for a promise that Russia would not attack them.

Well that shows how much a promise is worth.

Lynn

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:1b96543a-ae05-4190-905c-776c045a312dn@googlegroups.com:

> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 2:13:03 PM UTC-6, Alan wrote:
>
>> On 2022-09-20 12:58, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>
>> > And Biden just accused anyone who disagrees with his
>> > puppeteers' opiinions of treason.
>
>> Really?
>>
>> Then let's see the quote.
>
> Maybe he is thinking of the one where he has been roundly
> criticized for being soft on the Republicans by only calling
> them "semi" fascist?
>
Your delusions keep you from acknowledging the facts, of course, even
though it was covered by the non-lie-beral press.

Alan, of course, is so unhinged he doesn't know what planet he's on.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Wednesday, 21 September 2022 at 17:42:11 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 20:21:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On 9/20/2022 7:48 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 2:23:31 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>
> >>> Don't stand next to the guy throwing fecal matter at an armed man.
> >>
> >> I'm sorry, who is it again who is gratuitously and recklessly attacking Russia?
> >>
> >> As I recall, Ukraine is *fighting for its survival* after Russia chose to invade it.
> >>
> >> While you _are_ correct in noting that support for Ukraine is not without risk -
> >> and not just the United States, but also its allies, including Canada, are supplying
> >> Ukraine with arms for use against Russian forces...
> >>
> >> I mean, it really boils down to: are Ukrainians people, or are only Americans
> >> people who have the right to be free?
> >>
> >> Even in this age of nuclear weapons, as the Cold War demonstrated, aggression
> >> needs to be met with firm resolve and not appeasement.
> >>
> >> John Savard
> >
> >But, the Ukraine has no known nuclear weapons. Russia has a lot of
> >them. Including the nuclear weapons Ukraine turned over to Russia in
> >the not too distant past.
> Nonsense.
>
> Just because they are stationary and currently used (or not used, due
> to electric grid disruption) to generate electicity doesn't mean they
> can't be made to go "boom".
>
> If the wind is blowing East, Russia would be affected. But, of course,
> eventually so would the USA and Western Europe. What goes around does,
> indeed, come around.

Either way, Ukraine would suffer first. It's not
a good "weapon" unless the population plans to
leave the territory for Russia to take the territory.
And it's not clear to me that Russia objects
strongly to Ukrainians abandoning Ukraine.
Russia may object to calling that genocide,
but I think that's in the official definition
that I expect they agreed to.

On Wednesday, 21 September 2022 at 17:45:08 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 06:54:57 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
> <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 11:40:30 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 7:21:16 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>
> >> > But, the Ukraine has no known nuclear weapons. Russia has a lot of
> >> > them. Including the nuclear weapons Ukraine turned over to Russia in
> >> > the not too distant past.
> >> >
> >> > If I was Ukraine, I would not advance my troops across the border.
> >> The Ukraine has no intention of doing so (unless you count Donetsk,
> >> Luhansk, and the Crimea as parts of Russia) as that would immediately
> >> end any aid they recieve from Western countries.
> >> I can assure you that the governments of the Free World, even if they
> >> may be courageous and bold in this instance, are not crazy.
> >> If regime change happens to Russia, it will have to come from within
> >> Russia itself.
> >
> >Unofficially, a lot of things on the Russian side of the border have
> >Blowed Up Real Good in the past 7 months. Ukraine hasn't said
> >that they are responsible.
> >
> >They haven't said they aren't either.
> They aren't terrorists.
>
> Terrorists love to claim credit for their work. It is a compulsion
> with them. Sometimes they even claim it when they didn't do it.
>
> Governments are under no obligation to do so.

War isn't clearly distinct from terror. But there
are many terrorists who don't "take credit".
And after all, if you the tyrant can stop terrorism
by identifying terrorists and imprisoning or killing
them instead of agreeing to something that they
want and you don't want, then you'll probably
do that. But if the bombs or shootings or
whatever are portrayed as acts of the gods,
or the will of the silent majority, then you don't
have a clear enemy to fight.

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:vifmih1ktqi6qbjak98nkmodh6dj6u2eco@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 20:21:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 9/20/2022 7:48 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 2:23:31 PM UTC-6, Lynn
>>> McGuire wrote:
>>>
>>>> Don't stand next to the guy throwing fecal matter at an armed
>>>> man.
>>>
>>> I'm sorry, who is it again who is gratuitously and recklessly
>>> attacking Russia?
>>>
>>> As I recall, Ukraine is *fighting for its survival* after
>>> Russia chose to invade it.
>>>
>>> While you _are_ correct in noting that support for Ukraine is
>>> not without risk - and not just the United States, but also
>>> its allies, including Canada, are supplying Ukraine with arms
>>> for use against Russian forces...
>>>
>>> I mean, it really boils down to: are Ukrainians people, or are
>>> only Americans people who have the right to be free?
>>>
>>> Even in this age of nuclear weapons, as the Cold War
>>> demonstrated, aggression needs to be met with firm resolve and
>>> not appeasement.
>>>
>>> John Savard
>>
>>But, the Ukraine has no known nuclear weapons. Russia has a lot
>>of them. Including the nuclear weapons Ukraine turned over to
>>Russia in the not too distant past.
>
> Nonsense.
>
> Just because they are stationary and currently used (or not
> used, due to electric grid disruption) to generate electicity
> doesn't mean they can't be made to go "boom".

Heh. Not really. Other than a handful (like, less than five) of old
Soviet breeder reactors (like Chernobyl), nuclear reactors *can't*
explode. Three Mile Island was literally as bad a meltdown as is
possible in most rectors, with molten uranium puddling in the
chamber, and so little radioactive stuff was released that there
are zero cases of cancer that can definitely be attributed to it.

And the fuel used in reactors *can't* be used for nuclear bombs.
It's not enriched enough.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote in
news:63cde1a1-c0ba-4237-8db0-db02a5c299b5n@googlegroups.com:

> War isn't clearly distinct from terror.

Actually, there is, but addressing that would interfere with your
hatred of the west (and, undoubtedly, yourself), so you won't.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On 9/21/2022 3:11 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Wednesday, 21 September 2022 at 17:45:08 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 06:54:57 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
>> <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 11:40:30 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 7:21:16 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But, the Ukraine has no known nuclear weapons. Russia has a lot of
>>>>> them. Including the nuclear weapons Ukraine turned over to Russia in
>>>>> the not too distant past.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I was Ukraine, I would not advance my troops across the border.
>>>> The Ukraine has no intention of doing so (unless you count Donetsk,
>>>> Luhansk, and the Crimea as parts of Russia) as that would immediately
>>>> end any aid they recieve from Western countries.
>>>> I can assure you that the governments of the Free World, even if they
>>>> may be courageous and bold in this instance, are not crazy.
>>>> If regime change happens to Russia, it will have to come from within
>>>> Russia itself.
>>>
>>> Unofficially, a lot of things on the Russian side of the border have
>>> Blowed Up Real Good in the past 7 months. Ukraine hasn't said
>>> that they are responsible.
>>>
>>> They haven't said they aren't either.
>> They aren't terrorists.
>>
>> Terrorists love to claim credit for their work. It is a compulsion
>> with them. Sometimes they even claim it when they didn't do it.
>>
>> Governments are under no obligation to do so.
>
> War isn't clearly distinct from terror. But there
> are many terrorists who don't "take credit".
> And after all, if you the tyrant can stop terrorism
> by identifying terrorists and imprisoning or killing
> them instead of agreeing to something that they
> want and you don't want, then you'll probably
> do that. But if the bombs or shootings or
> whatever are portrayed as acts of the gods,
> or the will of the silent majority, then you don't
> have a clear enemy to fight.

On the other hand if you are conducting a terror campaign to make a
population agree to something, it can be helpful if they know _what_
they are being terrorized into agreeing to. Which basically requires
claiming credit for the terrorist actions.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 22/09/22 10:02, Robert Carnegie wrote:

snip

> Either way, Ukraine would suffer first. It's not
> a good "weapon" unless the population plans to
> leave the territory for Russia to take the territory.
> And it's not clear to me that Russia objects
> strongly to Ukrainians abandoning Ukraine.
> Russia may object to calling that genocide,
> but I think that's in the official definition
> that I expect they agreed to.

Perhaps you should read about the Minsk Agreement, negotiated by France
and Germany in which the Western Ukraine government promised greater
autonomy for the rebellious Eastern provinces.

On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 10:36:41 PM UTC-6, Titus G wrote:

> Perhaps you should read about the Minsk Agreement, negotiated by France
> and Germany in which the Western Ukraine government promised greater
> autonomy for the rebellious Eastern provinces.

Ukraine did not renege on that agreement prior to the Russian invasion of
those provinces. This was something it was willing to concede. Of course,
autonomy meant control by the people living there, not control from Russia.

John Savard

On 9/21/2022 9:36 PM, Titus G wrote:
> On 22/09/22 10:02, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>
> snip
>
>> Either way, Ukraine would suffer first. It's not
>> a good "weapon" unless the population plans to
>> leave the territory for Russia to take the territory.
>> And it's not clear to me that Russia objects
>> strongly to Ukrainians abandoning Ukraine.
>> Russia may object to calling that genocide,
>> but I think that's in the official definition
>> that I expect they agreed to.
>
> Perhaps you should read about the Minsk Agreement, negotiated by France
> and Germany in which the Western Ukraine government promised greater
> autonomy for the rebellious Eastern provinces.
>
I feel confident in doubting that such an agreement allowed for Russian
occupation and annexation of those provinces.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 12:23:02 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 9/21/2022 9:37 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 13:45:32 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>>>> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 7:44:14 AM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Considering that the majority of asylum seekers _don't_ come from
>>>>> Mexico, I'm not sure what your point is...
>>>>
>>>> Refugees originating from Guatemala have tended to approach the
>>>> United States *through* Mexico.
>>>
>>> Except most of the refugees are from Venezuela. That's a long hike
>>> through Mexico.
>>
>> Those trafficked to Martha's Vinyard with promises of jobs and housing
>> may now be eligible for Visas for the victims of trafficking. And so
>> eventual citizenship. Way to go DeSantis!
>>
> From what I've read they were all in the US legally seeking asylum
>before being lured by false promises into being shipped off out of state.

But there's no guarantee that asylum will be granted.

The special visas for victims of trafficking, it appears, are
automatic under the appropriate conditions. Basically, law enforcement
has to sign off on their having been trafficked. Or so I have read.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 12:28:05 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 9/21/2022 9:43 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 18:46:59 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/20/2022 6:21 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 9/20/2022 7:48 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 2:23:31 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> Don't stand next to the guy throwing fecal matter at an armed man.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sorry, who is it again who is gratuitously and recklessly
>>>>> attacking Russia?
>>>>>
>>>>> As I recall, Ukraine is *fighting for its survival* after Russia chose
>>>>> to invade it.
>>>>>
>>>>> While you _are_ correct in noting that support for Ukraine is not
>>>>> without risk -
>>>>> and not just the United States, but also its allies, including Canada,
>>>>> are supplying
>>>>> Ukraine with arms for use against Russian forces...
>>>>>
>>>>> I mean, it really boils down to: are Ukrainians people, or are only
>>>>> Americans
>>>>> people who have the right to be free?
>>>>>
>>>>> Even in this age of nuclear weapons, as the Cold War demonstrated,
>>>>> aggression
>>>>> needs to be met with firm resolve and not appeasement.
>>>>>
>>>>> John Savard
>>>>
>>>> But, the Ukraine has no known nuclear weapons.  Russia has a lot of
>>>> them.  Including the nuclear weapons Ukraine turned over to Russia in
>>>> the not too distant past.
>>>>
>>>> If I was Ukraine, I would not advance my troops across the border.
>>>>
>>> Which border? There are parts of Ukraine that have been occupied for
>>> almost a decade.
>>
>> The recognized international border with Russia.
>>
>> Liberating occupied territory is not an attack on the Motherland.
>>
>> Or, at least, will not be recognized as such by the rest of the world.
>
>So Russia will be okay with Ukraine liberating Crimea? o_O

There were some ... interesting ... explosions in the Crimea, but
Putin did not claim that Holy Mother Russia was being attacked. Or go
to nukes. So I would say that he realizes that his claim is bogus.

What he /doesn't/ realize is that, if he pulls out now, he might (in
return for past-due rent) be allowed to keep the Russian Black Sea
fleet based at Sevastopol. If Ukraine has to actually push the
Russiand out, Russia may have to build a new major port on their part
of the Black Sea for the fleet.

>My point with this is that it doesn't matter one whit what Ukraine's
>suppliers are okay with Ukraine doing. Personally I don't think Ukraine
>intends to invade what _they_ recognize as Russian territory. Blow shit
>up in it, yes, but no regular forces setting foot or tread in it.

Actually, it does. Aid won't stop as long as Ukraine is not actually
attacking Russia -- and that means that all of Ukraine is fair game
for liberation.

>Not that that will stop Putin using the claim that Ukraine is invading
>Russia to justify whatever bit of nastiness he's thinking of these days.

He'll do that no matter what, eventually, if he hasn't already.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:b61pih5oi9u4os6i59hidon5rga6kch1es@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 12:28:05 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>>On 9/21/2022 9:43 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 18:46:59 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 9/20/2022 6:21 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 9/20/2022 7:48 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 2:23:31 PM UTC-6, Lynn
>>>>>> McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> Don't stand next to the guy throwing fecal matter at an
>>>>>>> armed man.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sorry, who is it again who is gratuitously and
>>>>>> recklessly attacking Russia?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I recall, Ukraine is *fighting for its survival* after
>>>>>> Russia chose to invade it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While you _are_ correct in noting that support for Ukraine
>>>>>> is not without risk -
>>>>>> and not just the United States, but also its allies,
>>>>>> including Canada, are supplying
>>>>>> Ukraine with arms for use against Russian forces...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I mean, it really boils down to: are Ukrainians people, or
>>>>>> are only Americans
>>>>>> people who have the right to be free?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even in this age of nuclear weapons, as the Cold War
>>>>>> demonstrated, aggression
>>>>>> needs to be met with firm resolve and not appeasement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Savard
>>>>>
>>>>> But, the Ukraine has no known nuclear weapons.� Russia has a
>>>>> lot of them.� Including the nuclear weapons Ukraine turned
>>>>> over to Russia in the not too distant past.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I was Ukraine, I would not advance my troops across the
>>>>> border.
>>>>>
>>>> Which border? There are parts of Ukraine that have been
>>>> occupied for almost a decade.
>>>
>>> The recognized international border with Russia.
>>>
>>> Liberating occupied territory is not an attack on the
>>> Motherland.
>>>
>>> Or, at least, will not be recognized as such by the rest of
>>> the world.
>>
>>So Russia will be okay with Ukraine liberating Crimea? o_O
>
> There were some ... interesting ... explosions in the Crimea,
> but Putin did not claim that Holy Mother Russia was being
> attacked. Or go to nukes. So I would say that he realizes that
> his claim is bogus.
>
> What he /doesn't/ realize is that, if he pulls out now, he might
> (in return for past-due rent) be allowed to keep the Russian
> Black Sea fleet based at Sevastopol. If Ukraine has to actually
> push the Russiand out, Russia may have to build a new major port
> on their part of the Black Sea for the fleet.
>
>>My point with this is that it doesn't matter one whit what
>>Ukraine's suppliers are okay with Ukraine doing. Personally I
>>don't think Ukraine intends to invade what _they_ recognize as
>>Russian territory. Blow shit up in it, yes, but no regular
>>forces setting foot or tread in it.
>
> Actually, it does. Aid won't stop as long as Ukraine is not
> actually attacking Russia -- and that means that all of Ukraine
> is fair game for liberation.
>
>>Not that that will stop Putin using the claim that Ukraine is
>>invading Russia to justify whatever bit of nastiness he's
>>thinking of these days.
>
> He'll do that no matter what, eventually, if he hasn't already.

Actually, Ukraine (and NATO) attacking Russia was his justifiation
for the invasion in the first place. Clearly (he claims) they were
planning to do so.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On 2022-09-20 6:43 p.m., Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 2:13:03 PM UTC-6, Alan wrote:
>
>> On 2022-09-20 12:58, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>
>>> And Biden just accused anyone who disagrees with his puppeteers'
>>> opiinions of treason.
>
>> Really?
>>
>> Then let's see the quote.
>
> Maybe he is thinking of the one where he has been roundly criticized
> for being soft on the Republicans by only calling them "semi" fascist?

He didn't call all of them that. Just the ones who are OK with the
attempt to unconstitutionally reverse the election, or with the laws
intended to allow Republican state legislatures to toss out election
results they don't like.

On 9/22/2022 8:52 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 12:23:02 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> On 9/21/2022 9:37 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 13:45:32 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>>>>> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 7:44:14 AM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Considering that the majority of asylum seekers _don't_ come from
>>>>>> Mexico, I'm not sure what your point is...
>>>>>
>>>>> Refugees originating from Guatemala have tended to approach the
>>>>> United States *through* Mexico.
>>>>
>>>> Except most of the refugees are from Venezuela. That's a long hike
>>>> through Mexico.
>>>
>>> Those trafficked to Martha's Vinyard with promises of jobs and housing
>>> may now be eligible for Visas for the victims of trafficking. And so
>>> eventual citizenship. Way to go DeSantis!
>>>
>> From what I've read they were all in the US legally seeking asylum
>> before being lured by false promises into being shipped off out of state.
>
> But there's no guarantee that asylum will be granted.
>
True but the fact that they are in the process makes it legal for them
to be in the US.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.