Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote in
news:8be3882a-776c-4701-9641-51505b7e3932n@googlegroups.com:

> On Friday, October 7, 2022 at 3:36:37 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> 5GyYap52yQ1UGMWD <ehj46PkB...@VW28LtWn6wknpUMV.invalid> wrote
>> in news:87leps2...@ueubiyka.lnsz:
>> > "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >
>> >> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:51:39 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc
>> >> wrote:
>> >>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-6,
>> >>> Quadibloc wrote:
>> >>> > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6,
>> >>> > Robert Woodward wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > > Does significant include cities in the USA that support
>> >>> > > a Russian Orthodox church?
>> >>>
>> >>> > Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on
>> >>> > those who they see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine,
>> >>> > not the United States, in the case of Putin and Russia.
>> >>> But then, speaking of the Orthodox Church, popular Orthodox
>> >>> priest, the youthful Okhlobystin, gave a speech in Red
>> >>> Square where he declares that the countries of the world
>> >>> hostile to Russia, as they are ruled by perverts and
>> >>> Satanists, should tremble.
>> >>
>> >> I've been seeing reports that Orthodox churches in the US
>> >> are seeing an uptick in membership from right-wing
>> >> conservatives - the patriarchal, conservative, homophobic,
>> >> transphobic positions of the church are attractive to the
>> >> same crowd that likes Trump.
>> >>
>> >> pt
>> >
>> > Woah man. I'm just practicing my faith. You need to chill
>> > out.
>> >
>> Back in the days of Moonies relentlessly harassing people at
>> airports (this would be the 80s), and airport security couldn't
>> do anything about it because "our religion requires us to be
>> assholes," my father backed a particularly persistent one up
>> against a stairwell and pushed him down it. Broke his arm.
>> Airport security showed up right away, and asked him why he did
>> that. He replied, "My religious beliefs require me to
>> physically assault anyone who tries to proseletyze me." They
>> thought that was so hiliarious they hid him in their office
>> when the cops showed up.
>>
>> So be careful what excuse you use, because it cuts both ways.
>> --
>
> When a Krishna (ISKCON) at O'Hare tried to beg from me by
> pushing one of their profusely illustrated books into my hands,
> then asking for a "donation, " I would toy with them if I had
> time to kill before my flight.

I met a guy once who was a very devout born again Christian. Very
mild mannered, absolutely *never* brought up religion, though he'd
cheerfully talk to you about it if you did. Very *non* pushy.

Except when he traveled. He told me always carried pocket Bibles
when he went through an airport, and went looking for *them*.
Before they even had a chance to speak, he'd be "Have you heard the
word of the Lord today?" with a warm, friendly handshake. His
theory was that he he was harassing them (with zero chance of them
convincing him of anything), they weren't harassing anybody else,,
which he figured counted as a public service. But he toook great
pride in the fact that he actually did convert one once.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Friday, October 7, 2022 at 7:02:55 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote in
> news:8be3882a-776c-4701...@googlegroups.com:
> > On Friday, October 7, 2022 at 3:36:37 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
> > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> >> 5GyYap52yQ1UGMWD <ehj46PkB...@VW28LtWn6wknpUMV.invalid> wrote
> >> in news:87leps2...@ueubiyka.lnsz:
> >> > "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> >
> >> >> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:51:39 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-6,
> >> >>> Quadibloc wrote:
> >> >>> > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6,
> >> >>> > Robert Woodward wrote:
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > > Does significant include cities in the USA that support
> >> >>> > > a Russian Orthodox church?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> > Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on
> >> >>> > those who they see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine,
> >> >>> > not the United States, in the case of Putin and Russia.
> >> >>> But then, speaking of the Orthodox Church, popular Orthodox
> >> >>> priest, the youthful Okhlobystin, gave a speech in Red
> >> >>> Square where he declares that the countries of the world
> >> >>> hostile to Russia, as they are ruled by perverts and
> >> >>> Satanists, should tremble.
> >> >>
> >> >> I've been seeing reports that Orthodox churches in the US
> >> >> are seeing an uptick in membership from right-wing
> >> >> conservatives - the patriarchal, conservative, homophobic,
> >> >> transphobic positions of the church are attractive to the
> >> >> same crowd that likes Trump.
> >> >>
> >> >> pt
> >> >
> >> > Woah man. I'm just practicing my faith. You need to chill
> >> > out.
> >> >
> >> Back in the days of Moonies relentlessly harassing people at
> >> airports (this would be the 80s), and airport security couldn't
> >> do anything about it because "our religion requires us to be
> >> assholes," my father backed a particularly persistent one up
> >> against a stairwell and pushed him down it. Broke his arm.
> >> Airport security showed up right away, and asked him why he did
> >> that. He replied, "My religious beliefs require me to
> >> physically assault anyone who tries to proseletyze me." They
> >> thought that was so hiliarious they hid him in their office
> >> when the cops showed up.
> >>
> >> So be careful what excuse you use, because it cuts both ways.
> >> --
> >
> > When a Krishna (ISKCON) at O'Hare tried to beg from me by
> > pushing one of their profusely illustrated books into my hands,
> > then asking for a "donation, " I would toy with them if I had
> > time to kill before my flight.
> I met a guy once who was a very devout born again Christian. Very
> mild mannered, absolutely *never* brought up religion, though he'd
> cheerfully talk to you about it if you did. Very *non* pushy.
>
> Except when he traveled. He told me always carried pocket Bibles
> when he went through an airport, and went looking for *them*.
> Before they even had a chance to speak, he'd be "Have you heard the
> word of the Lord today?" with a warm, friendly handshake. His
> theory was that he he was harassing them (with zero chance of them
> convincing him of anything), they weren't harassing anybody else,,
> which he figured counted as a public service. But he toook great
> pride in the fact that he actually did convert one once.
> --

Our text for today s Proverbs 16:18. :)

--
Kevin R

Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote in
news:c520abe9-66d6-4b74-82e6-64938162e447n@googlegroups.com:

> On Friday, October 7, 2022 at 7:02:55 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote in
>> news:8be3882a-776c-4701...@googlegroups.com:
>> > On Friday, October 7, 2022 at 3:36:37 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
>> > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> >> 5GyYap52yQ1UGMWD <ehj46PkB...@VW28LtWn6wknpUMV.invalid>
>> >> wrote in news:87leps2...@ueubiyka.lnsz:
>> >> > "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:51:39 AM UTC-4,
>> >> >> Quadibloc wrote:
>> >> >>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-6,
>> >> >>> Quadibloc wrote:
>> >> >>> > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6,
>> >> >>> > Robert Woodward wrote:
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > > Does significant include cities in the USA that
>> >> >>> > > support a Russian Orthodox church?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> > Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick
>> >> >>> > on those who they see as weaker than themselves.
>> >> >>> > Ukraine, not the United States, in the case of Putin
>> >> >>> > and Russia.
>> >> >>> But then, speaking of the Orthodox Church, popular
>> >> >>> Orthodox priest, the youthful Okhlobystin, gave a speech
>> >> >>> in Red Square where he declares that the countries of
>> >> >>> the world hostile to Russia, as they are ruled by
>> >> >>> perverts and Satanists, should tremble.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I've been seeing reports that Orthodox churches in the US
>> >> >> are seeing an uptick in membership from right-wing
>> >> >> conservatives - the patriarchal, conservative,
>> >> >> homophobic, transphobic positions of the church are
>> >> >> attractive to the same crowd that likes Trump.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> pt
>> >> >
>> >> > Woah man. I'm just practicing my faith. You need to chill
>> >> > out.
>> >> >
>> >> Back in the days of Moonies relentlessly harassing people at
>> >> airports (this would be the 80s), and airport security
>> >> couldn't do anything about it because "our religion requires
>> >> us to be assholes," my father backed a particularly
>> >> persistent one up against a stairwell and pushed him down
>> >> it. Broke his arm. Airport security showed up right away,
>> >> and asked him why he did that. He replied, "My religious
>> >> beliefs require me to physically assault anyone who tries to
>> >> proseletyze me." They thought that was so hiliarious they
>> >> hid him in their office when the cops showed up.
>> >>
>> >> So be careful what excuse you use, because it cuts both
>> >> ways. --
>> >
>> > When a Krishna (ISKCON) at O'Hare tried to beg from me by
>> > pushing one of their profusely illustrated books into my
>> > hands, then asking for a "donation, " I would toy with them
>> > if I had time to kill before my flight.
>> I met a guy once who was a very devout born again Christian.
>> Very mild mannered, absolutely *never* brought up religion,
>> though he'd cheerfully talk to you about it if you did. Very
>> *non* pushy.
>>
>> Except when he traveled. He told me always carried pocket
>> Bibles when he went through an airport, and went looking for
>> *them*. Before they even had a chance to speak, he'd be "Have
>> you heard the word of the Lord today?" with a warm, friendly
>> handshake. His theory was that he he was harassing them (with
>> zero chance of them convincing him of anything), they weren't
>> harassing anybody else,, which he figured counted as a public
>> service. But he toook great pride in the fact that he actually
>> did convert one once. --
>
> Our text for today s Proverbs 16:18. :)
>
Or Matthew 23:15

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:

> 5GyYap52yQ1UGMWD <ehj46PkBWfBAng9C@VW28LtWn6wknpUMV.invalid> wrote
> in news:87leps299x.fsf@ueubiyka.lnsz:
>
>> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:51:39 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert
>>>> > Woodward wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > > Does significant include cities in the USA that support a
>>>> > > Russian Orthodox church?
>>>>
>>>> > Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on
>>>> > those who they see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not
>>>> > the United States, in the case of Putin and Russia.
>>>> But then, speaking of the Orthodox Church, popular Orthodox
>>>> priest, the youthful Okhlobystin, gave a speech in Red
>>>> Square where he declares that the countries of the world
>>>> hostile to Russia, as they are ruled by perverts and
>>>> Satanists, should tremble.
>>>
>>> I've been seeing reports that Orthodox churches in the US are
>>> seeing an uptick in membership from right-wing
>>> conservatives - the patriarchal, conservative, homophobic,
>>> transphobic positions of the church are attractive to the same
>>> crowd that likes Trump.
>>>
>>> pt
>>
>> Woah man. I'm just practicing my faith. You need to chill out.
>>
> Back in the days of Moonies relentlessly harassing people at
> airports (this would be the 80s), and airport security couldn't do
> anything about it because "our religion requires us to be
> assholes," my father backed a particularly persistent one up
> against a stairwell and pushed him down it. Broke his arm. Airport
> security showed up right away, and asked him why he did that. He
> replied, "My religious beliefs require me to physically assault
> anyone who tries to proseletyze me." They thought that was so
> hiliarious they hid him in their office when the cops showed up.
>
> So be careful what excuse you use, because it cuts both ways.

???

--
Pointless meanderings in a bleak and lonely world.

On Friday, October 7, 2022 at 5:28:30 PM UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Oct 2022 11:08:53 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
> <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:03:52 PM UTC+1, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:51:39 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> > On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> > > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert Woodward wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Does significant include cities in the USA that support a Russian
> >> > > > Orthodox church?
> >> >
> >> > > Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on those who they
> >> > > see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not the United States, in the
> >> > > case of Putin and Russia.
> >> > But then, speaking of the Orthodox Church, popular Orthodox priest, the
> >> > youthful Okhlobystin, gave a speech in Red Square where he declares that
> >> > the countries of the world hostile to Russia, as they are ruled by perverts
> >> > and Satanists, should tremble.
> >> I've been seeing reports that Orthodox churches in the US are seeing an
> >> uptick in membership from right-wing conservatives - the patriarchal,
> >> conservative, homophobic, transphobic positions of the church are
> >> attractive to the same crowd that likes Trump.
> >>
> >> pt
> >The Orthodox churches are interesting because if you look at modern mainstream western accounts of the Great Schism you may find something close to an admission that the Eastern churches were in the right, and the theology and worship of Orthodox churches is much closer to the theology and worship of Eastern churches at the time of the Great Schism than the theology and worship of any current Western church is to anything similarly ancient. It is unfortunate that Orthodox churches have so often been closely linked with unattractive governments. I did a search once on their position on church-state links and found a text (I think from an American and certainly English-speaking source) which suggested that this linkage was not intrinsic to their theology.
> "In the right" or not, the first bit ties into other things I have
> read on the topic. Some of which were rather negative, but then, they
> were published 70-120 years ago.
>
> If the text you found is from an American, it is possible that said
> American is letting the American understanding interfere with the
> study and understanding of Orthodoxy.
>
> Keep in mind that Roman Catholicism was quite entwined with the State.
> Consider the struggle with the Holy Roman Emperors. And the efforts of
> France to establish a /national/ church with was, nonetheless, Roman
> Catholic. Or the fact (well, this may have varied a bit) that the
> Inquisition didn't burn anyone -- the State did it for them at their
> direction.
>
> The resulting tendency to side with authoritarian (not to mention
> totalitarian) governments, BTW, gives some credence to Marx's claim
> that "religion is the opiate of the people".
>
> So one difference is that Roman Catholicism, at least in some places,
> has learned to survive without controlling the State. But this is not
> its historical preference -- and, to be fair, a fair number of
> Protestant denominations have felt the same way. As we are seeing
> today as they become more vocal.
>
> I would expect traditionalist Episcopalians to turn to Rome, as its
> positions are surely much closer to theirs. But perhaps they were
> exposed to too much anti-Rome propaganda when they were young.
> --
> "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
> development was the disintegration, under Christian
> influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
> of family right."

At least one of the documents I found was http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx which appears to be a Russian Orthodox document (as of 2000). While there are many features of it that a left of centre westerner would disagree with, there are many points which should prohibit aggressive war against a neighbouring country, and the commission of any act of violence not militarily necessary, even should the war itself be just. Under these circumstances the Church claims the right to speak out against the war, and its followers are required to refuse orders to commit grossly sinful acts.

Of course this is not happening, but, on reflection, I doubt if the problem can be solved by theology, at least under the interpretation of emergency powers prevailing in both East and West. Putin is claiming that his forces are engaged in a righteous struggle for self defence and liberation against fascists, and the claim of anti-fascism has been used to excuse an enormous range of actions, including the censorship and outright lying which may stop many churchgoers from seeing the crimes their state is responsible for.

On Sat, 08 Oct 2022 08:09:54 +0800, 5GyYap52yQ1UGMWD
<ehj46PkBWfBAng9C@VW28LtWn6wknpUMV.invalid> wrote:

>Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> 5GyYap52yQ1UGMWD <ehj46PkBWfBAng9C@VW28LtWn6wknpUMV.invalid> wrote
>> in news:87leps299x.fsf@ueubiyka.lnsz:
>>
>>> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:51:39 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert
>>>>> > Woodward wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > > Does significant include cities in the USA that support a
>>>>> > > Russian Orthodox church?
>>>>>
>>>>> > Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on
>>>>> > those who they see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not
>>>>> > the United States, in the case of Putin and Russia.
>>>>> But then, speaking of the Orthodox Church, popular Orthodox
>>>>> priest, the youthful Okhlobystin, gave a speech in Red
>>>>> Square where he declares that the countries of the world
>>>>> hostile to Russia, as they are ruled by perverts and
>>>>> Satanists, should tremble.
>>>>
>>>> I've been seeing reports that Orthodox churches in the US are
>>>> seeing an uptick in membership from right-wing
>>>> conservatives - the patriarchal, conservative, homophobic,
>>>> transphobic positions of the church are attractive to the same
>>>> crowd that likes Trump.
>>>>
>>>> pt
>>>
>>> Woah man. I'm just practicing my faith. You need to chill out.
>>>
>> Back in the days of Moonies relentlessly harassing people at
>> airports (this would be the 80s), and airport security couldn't do
>> anything about it because "our religion requires us to be
>> assholes," my father backed a particularly persistent one up
>> against a stairwell and pushed him down it. Broke his arm. Airport
>> security showed up right away, and asked him why he did that. He
>> replied, "My religious beliefs require me to physically assault
>> anyone who tries to proseletyze me." They thought that was so
>> hiliarious they hid him in their office when the cops showed up.
>>
>> So be careful what excuse you use, because it cuts both ways.
>
>???

Apparently, one of "those" States is having its anti-abortion laws
challenged by a Satanist church on the grounds that it interferes with
/their/ practice of /their/ religion.

Be interesting to see where /that/ goes. Freedom of Religion is in the
Constitution; Freedem to Outlaw Abortion is not.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

5GyYap52yQ1UGMWD <ehj46PkBWfBAng9C@VW28LtWn6wknpUMV.invalid> wrote
in news:87czb318h9.fsf@ueubiyka.lnsz:

> Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> 5GyYap52yQ1UGMWD <ehj46PkBWfBAng9C@VW28LtWn6wknpUMV.invalid>
>> wrote in news:87leps299x.fsf@ueubiyka.lnsz:
>>
>>> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:51:39 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert
>>>>> > Woodward wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > > Does significant include cities in the USA that support
>>>>> > > a Russian Orthodox church?
>>>>>
>>>>> > Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on
>>>>> > those who they see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not
>>>>> > the United States, in the case of Putin and Russia.
>>>>> But then, speaking of the Orthodox Church, popular
>>>>> Orthodox priest, the youthful Okhlobystin, gave a speech
>>>>> in Red Square where he declares that the countries of the
>>>>> world hostile to Russia, as they are ruled by perverts and
>>>>> Satanists, should tremble.
>>>>
>>>> I've been seeing reports that Orthodox churches in the US
>>>> are seeing an uptick in membership from right-wing
>>>> conservatives - the patriarchal, conservative,
>>>> homophobic, transphobic positions of the church are
>>>> attractive to the same crowd that likes Trump.
>>>>
>>>> pt
>>>
>>> Woah man. I'm just practicing my faith. You need to chill out.
>>>
>> Back in the days of Moonies relentlessly harassing people at
>> airports (this would be the 80s), and airport security couldn't
>> do anything about it because "our religion requires us to be
>> assholes," my father backed a particularly persistent one up
>> against a stairwell and pushed him down it. Broke his arm.
>> Airport security showed up right away, and asked him why he did
>> that. He replied, "My religious beliefs require me to
>> physically assault anyone who tries to proseletyze me." They
>> thought that was so hiliarious they hid him in their office
>> when the cops showed up.
>>
>> So be careful what excuse you use, because it cuts both ways.
>
> ???
>
Which part are you too stupid to understand? If your excuse for
being an asshole is "my religion requires it," it's quite
hypocritical of you to whine like a two year old with a dirty
diaper when someone else is an asshole to you. Though hypocrisy
does seem to be a core value of the religous Bent Axle Brigade.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

In article <lb73khlsapjb27vuaddpuo7268gctp5tam@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Sat, 08 Oct 2022 08:09:54 +0800, 5GyYap52yQ1UGMWD
><ehj46PkBWfBAng9C@VW28LtWn6wknpUMV.invalid> wrote:
>
>>Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> 5GyYap52yQ1UGMWD <ehj46PkBWfBAng9C@VW28LtWn6wknpUMV.invalid> wrote
>>> in news:87leps299x.fsf@ueubiyka.lnsz:
>>>
>>>> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:51:39 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert
>>>>>> > Woodward wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > > Does significant include cities in the USA that support a
>>>>>> > > Russian Orthodox church?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on
>>>>>> > those who they see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not
>>>>>> > the United States, in the case of Putin and Russia.
>>>>>> But then, speaking of the Orthodox Church, popular Orthodox
>>>>>> priest, the youthful Okhlobystin, gave a speech in Red
>>>>>> Square where he declares that the countries of the world
>>>>>> hostile to Russia, as they are ruled by perverts and
>>>>>> Satanists, should tremble.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been seeing reports that Orthodox churches in the US are
>>>>> seeing an uptick in membership from right-wing
>>>>> conservatives - the patriarchal, conservative, homophobic,
>>>>> transphobic positions of the church are attractive to the same
>>>>> crowd that likes Trump.
>>>>>
>>>>> pt
>>>>
>>>> Woah man. I'm just practicing my faith. You need to chill out.
>>>>
>>> Back in the days of Moonies relentlessly harassing people at
>>> airports (this would be the 80s), and airport security couldn't do
>>> anything about it because "our religion requires us to be
>>> assholes," my father backed a particularly persistent one up
>>> against a stairwell and pushed him down it. Broke his arm. Airport
>>> security showed up right away, and asked him why he did that. He
>>> replied, "My religious beliefs require me to physically assault
>>> anyone who tries to proseletyze me." They thought that was so
>>> hiliarious they hid him in their office when the cops showed up.
>>>
>>> So be careful what excuse you use, because it cuts both ways.
>>
>>???
>
>Apparently, one of "those" States is having its anti-abortion laws
>challenged by a Satanist church on the grounds that it interferes with
>/their/ practice of /their/ religion.

(Hal Heydt)
That may be Florida, where a couple of Jewish groups are
challenging the state abortion restrictions on just those
grounds.

Haven't heard anything lately on how that going, though.

On 10/8/2022 7:41 AM, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> On Friday, October 7, 2022 at 5:28:30 PM UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Thu, 6 Oct 2022 11:08:53 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
>> <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:03:52 PM UTC+1, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:51:39 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert Woodward wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does significant include cities in the USA that support a Russian
>>>>>>> Orthodox church?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on those who they
>>>>>> see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not the United States, in the
>>>>>> case of Putin and Russia.
>>>>> But then, speaking of the Orthodox Church, popular Orthodox priest, the
>>>>> youthful Okhlobystin, gave a speech in Red Square where he declares that
>>>>> the countries of the world hostile to Russia, as they are ruled by perverts
>>>>> and Satanists, should tremble.
>>>> I've been seeing reports that Orthodox churches in the US are seeing an
>>>> uptick in membership from right-wing conservatives - the patriarchal,
>>>> conservative, homophobic, transphobic positions of the church are
>>>> attractive to the same crowd that likes Trump.
>>>>
>>>> pt
>>> The Orthodox churches are interesting because if you look at modern mainstream western accounts of the Great Schism you may find something close to an admission that the Eastern churches were in the right, and the theology and worship of Orthodox churches is much closer to the theology and worship of Eastern churches at the time of the Great Schism than the theology and worship of any current Western church is to anything similarly ancient. It is unfortunate that Orthodox churches have so often been closely linked with unattractive governments. I did a search once on their position on church-state links and found a text (I think from an American and certainly English-speaking source) which suggested that this linkage was not intrinsic to their theology.
>> "In the right" or not, the first bit ties into other things I have
>> read on the topic. Some of which were rather negative, but then, they
>> were published 70-120 years ago.
>>
>> If the text you found is from an American, it is possible that said
>> American is letting the American understanding interfere with the
>> study and understanding of Orthodoxy.
>>
>> Keep in mind that Roman Catholicism was quite entwined with the State.
>> Consider the struggle with the Holy Roman Emperors. And the efforts of
>> France to establish a /national/ church with was, nonetheless, Roman
>> Catholic. Or the fact (well, this may have varied a bit) that the
>> Inquisition didn't burn anyone -- the State did it for them at their
>> direction.
>>
>> The resulting tendency to side with authoritarian (not to mention
>> totalitarian) governments, BTW, gives some credence to Marx's claim
>> that "religion is the opiate of the people".
>>
>> So one difference is that Roman Catholicism, at least in some places,
>> has learned to survive without controlling the State. But this is not
>> its historical preference -- and, to be fair, a fair number of
>> Protestant denominations have felt the same way. As we are seeing
>> today as they become more vocal.
>>
>> I would expect traditionalist Episcopalians to turn to Rome, as its
>> positions are surely much closer to theirs. But perhaps they were
>> exposed to too much anti-Rome propaganda when they were young.
>> --
>> "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
>> development was the disintegration, under Christian
>> influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
>> of family right."
>
> At least one of the documents I found was http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx which appears to be a Russian Orthodox document (as of 2000). While there are many features of it that a left of centre westerner would disagree with, there are many points which should prohibit aggressive war against a neighbouring country, and the commission of any act of violence not militarily necessary, even should the war itself be just. Under these circumstances the Church claims the right to speak out against the war, and its followers are required to refuse orders to commit grossly sinful acts.
>
> Of course this is not happening, but, on reflection, I doubt if the problem can be solved by theology, at least under the interpretation of emergency powers prevailing in both East and West. Putin is claiming that his forces are engaged in a righteous struggle for self defence and liberation against fascists, and the claim of anti-fascism has been used to excuse an enormous range of actions, including the censorship and outright lying which may stop many churchgoers from seeing the crimes their state is responsible for.

When Russia invaded Ukraine earlier this year the head of the Russian
Orthodox Church gave his whole-hearted support for the action which he
had been pushing for for some years. Theology isn't the problem here.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Saturday, October 8, 2022 at 9:57:05 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:

> Be interesting to see where /that/ goes. Freedom of Religion is in the
> Constitution; Freedem to Outlaw Abortion is not.

The actions several states have taken in response to the repeal of
_Roe vs Wade_ have, very definitely, confirmed the truth of the stereotype
of the pro-life movement as being chiefly concerned with enforcing their
vision of sexual morality, rather than being genuinely concerned about
protecting the unborn while also being respectful of women.

This, of course, is hardly surprising, seeing as we're dealing with people
who embraced Trump as their instrument for changing the Supreme
Court - at the cost of thousands of American lives needlessly lost to
COVID-19.

At least some of the eccentric millionaires funding COVID-19 disinformation
appear to have wanted the disease to kill off as many working-class
Americans as possible. And their goals, no doubt, were furthered by the
fact that oximeters - the most common kind, that shine a light through the
skin - don't come with an adjustment to correct for the effects of different
skin colors.

So during the worst of the pandemic, black people didn't get put on ventilators
soon enough. On top of being less likely to have work-from-home jobs.

John Savard

On Sat, 8 Oct 2022 19:18:23 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>In article <lb73khlsapjb27vuaddpuo7268gctp5tam@4ax.com>,
>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>On Sat, 08 Oct 2022 08:09:54 +0800, 5GyYap52yQ1UGMWD
>><ehj46PkBWfBAng9C@VW28LtWn6wknpUMV.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> 5GyYap52yQ1UGMWD <ehj46PkBWfBAng9C@VW28LtWn6wknpUMV.invalid> wrote
>>>> in news:87leps299x.fsf@ueubiyka.lnsz:
>>>>
>>>>> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:51:39 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert
>>>>>>> > Woodward wrote:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > > Does significant include cities in the USA that support a
>>>>>>> > > Russian Orthodox church?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on
>>>>>>> > those who they see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not
>>>>>>> > the United States, in the case of Putin and Russia.
>>>>>>> But then, speaking of the Orthodox Church, popular Orthodox
>>>>>>> priest, the youthful Okhlobystin, gave a speech in Red
>>>>>>> Square where he declares that the countries of the world
>>>>>>> hostile to Russia, as they are ruled by perverts and
>>>>>>> Satanists, should tremble.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've been seeing reports that Orthodox churches in the US are
>>>>>> seeing an uptick in membership from right-wing
>>>>>> conservatives - the patriarchal, conservative, homophobic,
>>>>>> transphobic positions of the church are attractive to the same
>>>>>> crowd that likes Trump.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> pt
>>>>>
>>>>> Woah man. I'm just practicing my faith. You need to chill out.
>>>>>
>>>> Back in the days of Moonies relentlessly harassing people at
>>>> airports (this would be the 80s), and airport security couldn't do
>>>> anything about it because "our religion requires us to be
>>>> assholes," my father backed a particularly persistent one up
>>>> against a stairwell and pushed him down it. Broke his arm. Airport
>>>> security showed up right away, and asked him why he did that. He
>>>> replied, "My religious beliefs require me to physically assault
>>>> anyone who tries to proseletyze me." They thought that was so
>>>> hiliarious they hid him in their office when the cops showed up.
>>>>
>>>> So be careful what excuse you use, because it cuts both ways.
>>>
>>>???
>>
>>Apparently, one of "those" States is having its anti-abortion laws
>>challenged by a Satanist church on the grounds that it interferes with
>>/their/ practice of /their/ religion.
>
>(Hal Heydt)
>That may be Florida, where a couple of Jewish groups are
>challenging the state abortion restrictions on just those
>grounds.

That's a different case -- in a different State.

But it will still be interesting to watch what happens.

>Haven't heard anything lately on how that going, though.

Neither have I.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Sat, 8 Oct 2022 14:29:08 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 10/8/2022 7:41 AM, Andrew McDowell wrote:
>> On Friday, October 7, 2022 at 5:28:30 PM UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Thu, 6 Oct 2022 11:08:53 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
>>> <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:03:52 PM UTC+1, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:51:39 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert Woodward wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does significant include cities in the USA that support a Russian
>>>>>>>> Orthodox church?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on those who they
>>>>>>> see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not the United States, in the
>>>>>>> case of Putin and Russia.
>>>>>> But then, speaking of the Orthodox Church, popular Orthodox priest, the
>>>>>> youthful Okhlobystin, gave a speech in Red Square where he declares that
>>>>>> the countries of the world hostile to Russia, as they are ruled by perverts
>>>>>> and Satanists, should tremble.
>>>>> I've been seeing reports that Orthodox churches in the US are seeing an
>>>>> uptick in membership from right-wing conservatives - the patriarchal,
>>>>> conservative, homophobic, transphobic positions of the church are
>>>>> attractive to the same crowd that likes Trump.
>>>>>
>>>>> pt
>>>> The Orthodox churches are interesting because if you look at modern mainstream western accounts of the Great Schism you may find something close to an admission that the Eastern churches were in the right, and the theology and worship of Orthodox churches is much closer to the theology and worship of Eastern churches at the time of the Great Schism than the theology and worship of any current Western church is to anything similarly ancient. It is unfortunate that Orthodox churches have so often been closely linked with unattractive governments. I did a search once on their position on church-state links and found a text (I think from an American and certainly English-speaking source) which suggested that this linkage was not intrinsic to their theology.
>>> "In the right" or not, the first bit ties into other things I have
>>> read on the topic. Some of which were rather negative, but then, they
>>> were published 70-120 years ago.
>>>
>>> If the text you found is from an American, it is possible that said
>>> American is letting the American understanding interfere with the
>>> study and understanding of Orthodoxy.
>>>
>>> Keep in mind that Roman Catholicism was quite entwined with the State.
>>> Consider the struggle with the Holy Roman Emperors. And the efforts of
>>> France to establish a /national/ church with was, nonetheless, Roman
>>> Catholic. Or the fact (well, this may have varied a bit) that the
>>> Inquisition didn't burn anyone -- the State did it for them at their
>>> direction.
>>>
>>> The resulting tendency to side with authoritarian (not to mention
>>> totalitarian) governments, BTW, gives some credence to Marx's claim
>>> that "religion is the opiate of the people".
>>>
>>> So one difference is that Roman Catholicism, at least in some places,
>>> has learned to survive without controlling the State. But this is not
>>> its historical preference -- and, to be fair, a fair number of
>>> Protestant denominations have felt the same way. As we are seeing
>>> today as they become more vocal.
>>>
>>> I would expect traditionalist Episcopalians to turn to Rome, as its
>>> positions are surely much closer to theirs. But perhaps they were
>>> exposed to too much anti-Rome propaganda when they were young.
>>> --
>>> "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
>>> development was the disintegration, under Christian
>>> influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
>>> of family right."
>>
>> At least one of the documents I found was http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx which appears to be a Russian Orthodox document (as of 2000). While there are many features of it that a left of centre westerner would disagree with, there are many points which should prohibit aggressive war against a neighbouring country, and the commission of any act of violence not militarily necessary, even should the war itself be just. Under these circumstances the Church claims the right to speak out against the war, and its followers are required to refuse orders to commit grossly sinful acts.
>>
>> Of course this is not happening, but, on reflection, I doubt if the problem can be solved by theology, at least under the interpretation of emergency powers prevailing in both East and West. Putin is claiming that his forces are engaged in a righteous struggle for self defence and liberation against fascists, and the claim of anti-fascism has been used to excuse an enormous range of actions, including the censorship and outright lying which may stop many churchgoers from seeing the crimes their state is responsible for.
>
>When Russia invaded Ukraine earlier this year the head of the Russian
>Orthodox Church gave his whole-hearted support for the action which he
>had been pushing for for some years. Theology isn't the problem here.

IIRC, he also objected to Russian and non-Russians getting it on in
Sochi during the Olympics -- not because they weren't married, but
because the Holy Russian Race was being polluted.

So this guy is clearly part of the problem, not of the solution.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 16:08:01 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>In article <f3596eca-cdcc-4e10-a268-5ca59c1c0234n@googlegroups.com>,
>Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 9:32:17 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>
>>> If Putin is replaced by someone /sane/, they might get to continue to
>>> lease the base at Sevastopl for their fleet. They would, of course,
>>> have to pay the lease payments not paid during their illegal
>>> occupation and the rates might well go up going forward.
>>
>>If Putin were replaced by someone *sane*, Russia would promptly
>>agree to hand over all their armaments to NATO and adopt a peace
>>constitution similar to Japan's. So they would not *have* a fleet to
>>base in Sevastopol.
>
>(Hal Heydt)
>That doesn't actually follow. They might not have a "blue water"
>fleet, but they would still have a legitimate need to coastal
>defense and search and rescue ships. I.e. A Coast Guard, even if
>not a Navy, and a Coast Guard still needs ports (though not, I'd
>agree, necessarily ones leased from some other country).

What does "blue water" mean in this context given the Turks control
the exit from the Black Sea?

On Thu, 6 Oct 2022 09:01:12 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>On 2022-10-06 08:09, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>> news:7b287035-a931-4cfb-9371-a50cfea8220cn@googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert
>>> Woodward wrote:
>>>
>>>> Does significant include cities in the USA that support a
>>>> Russian Orthodox church?
>>>
>>> Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy.
>>
>> There is consideable evidence that he actually is. He's encouraged by
>> how weak an ineffective the current administration is.
>>
>
>LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!
>
>Tell us all, Terry:
>
>What would a "strong and effective" administration have done?

I'm pretty sure the United States would want considerably more than $
7.2 million adjusted for inflation (even if paid in gold)

On the other hand if Sarah Palin becomes prominent and crazy enough
again they may PAY Putin to get rid of her.

In article <ovq6kh9a7t8lphjr687rt6naqkdlph7v28@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 16:08:01 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <f3596eca-cdcc-4e10-a268-5ca59c1c0234n@googlegroups.com>,
>>Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 9:32:17 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>
>>>> If Putin is replaced by someone /sane/, they might get to continue to
>>>> lease the base at Sevastopl for their fleet. They would, of course,
>>>> have to pay the lease payments not paid during their illegal
>>>> occupation and the rates might well go up going forward.
>>>
>>>If Putin were replaced by someone *sane*, Russia would promptly
>>>agree to hand over all their armaments to NATO and adopt a peace
>>>constitution similar to Japan's. So they would not *have* a fleet to
>>>base in Sevastopol.
>>
>>(Hal Heydt)
>>That doesn't actually follow. They might not have a "blue water"
>>fleet, but they would still have a legitimate need to coastal
>>defense and search and rescue ships. I.e. A Coast Guard, even if
>>not a Navy, and a Coast Guard still needs ports (though not, I'd
>>agree, necessarily ones leased from some other country).
>
>What does "blue water" mean in this context given the Turks control
>the exit from the Black Sea?

(Hal Heydt)
Well... The Russian Black Sea fleet used to have a cruiser as
its flagship. There are international agreements covering
transit into and out of the Black Sea. So Sevastopol could be a
significant Naval Port for the Russians. They might have to be
sure to have ships on their preferred side of the Bosphoros as
part of planning for any significant action.

djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>In article <ovq6kh9a7t8lphjr687rt6naqkdlph7v28@4ax.com>,
>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>>On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 16:08:01 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article <f3596eca-cdcc-4e10-a268-5ca59c1c0234n@googlegroups.com>,
>>>Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 9:32:17 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If Putin is replaced by someone /sane/, they might get to continue to
>>>>> lease the base at Sevastopl for their fleet. They would, of course,
>>>>> have to pay the lease payments not paid during their illegal
>>>>> occupation and the rates might well go up going forward.
>>>>
>>>>If Putin were replaced by someone *sane*, Russia would promptly
>>>>agree to hand over all their armaments to NATO and adopt a peace
>>>>constitution similar to Japan's. So they would not *have* a fleet to
>>>>base in Sevastopol.
>>>
>>>(Hal Heydt)
>>>That doesn't actually follow. They might not have a "blue water"
>>>fleet, but they would still have a legitimate need to coastal
>>>defense and search and rescue ships. I.e. A Coast Guard, even if
>>>not a Navy, and a Coast Guard still needs ports (though not, I'd
>>>agree, necessarily ones leased from some other country).
>>
>>What does "blue water" mean in this context given the Turks control
>>the exit from the Black Sea?
>
>(Hal Heydt)
>Well... The Russian Black Sea fleet used to have a cruiser as
>its flagship. There are international agreements covering
>transit into and out of the Black Sea. So Sevastopol could be a
>significant Naval Port for the Russians. They might have to be
>sure to have ships on their preferred side of the Bosphoros as
>part of planning for any significant action.

Not to mention Murmansk, or Vladivostok (although neither are
particularly convenient, they are blue-water ports).

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 11:33:06 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <ovq6kh9a7t8lphjr6...@4ax.com>,
> The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca> wrote:
> >On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 16:08:01 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>In article <f3596eca-cdcc-4e10...@googlegroups.com>,
> >>Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >>>On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 9:32:17 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> If Putin is replaced by someone /sane/, they might get to continue to
> >>>> lease the base at Sevastopl for their fleet. They would, of course,
> >>>> have to pay the lease payments not paid during their illegal
> >>>> occupation and the rates might well go up going forward.
> >>>
> >>>If Putin were replaced by someone *sane*, Russia would promptly
> >>>agree to hand over all their armaments to NATO and adopt a peace
> >>>constitution similar to Japan's. So they would not *have* a fleet to
> >>>base in Sevastopol.
> >>
> >>(Hal Heydt)
> >>That doesn't actually follow. They might not have a "blue water"
> >>fleet, but they would still have a legitimate need to coastal
> >>defense and search and rescue ships. I.e. A Coast Guard, even if
> >>not a Navy, and a Coast Guard still needs ports (though not, I'd
> >>agree, necessarily ones leased from some other country).
> >
> >What does "blue water" mean in this context given the Turks control
> >the exit from the Black Sea?
> (Hal Heydt)
> Well... The Russian Black Sea fleet used to have a cruiser as
> its flagship. There are international agreements covering
> transit into and out of the Black Sea. So Sevastopol could be a
> significant Naval Port for the Russians. They might have to be
> sure to have ships on their preferred side of the Bosphoros as
> part of planning for any significant action.

I understand that there's a treaty that bans the Bosphorus passage
to ships engaged in war. So Russia's (and Ukraine's) fleets in or out
of the Black Sea can't be altered.

Sevastopol is another reason Russia wants to retain
Crimea. Aside from its historic significance, its loss
would be require expensively building up Novorossiysk.

pt

On Sun, 9 Oct 2022 08:49:49 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

>On Saturday, October 8, 2022 at 9:57:05 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>> Be interesting to see where /that/ goes. Freedom of Religion is in the
>> Constitution; Freedem to Outlaw Abortion is not.
>
>The actions several states have taken in response to the repeal of
>_Roe vs Wade_ have, very definitely, confirmed the truth of the stereotype
>of the pro-life movement as being chiefly concerned with enforcing their
>vision of sexual morality, rather than being genuinely concerned about
>protecting the unborn while also being respectful of women.
>
>This, of course, is hardly surprising, seeing as we're dealing with people
>who embraced Trump as their instrument for changing the Supreme
>Court - at the cost of thousands of American lives needlessly lost to
>COVID-19.
>
>At least some of the eccentric millionaires funding COVID-19 disinformation
>appear to have wanted the disease to kill off as many working-class
>Americans as possible. And their goals, no doubt, were furthered by the
>fact that oximeters - the most common kind, that shine a light through the
>skin - don't come with an adjustment to correct for the effects of different
>skin colors.
>
>So during the worst of the pandemic, black people didn't get put on ventilators
>soon enough. On top of being less likely to have work-from-home jobs.

Myself, I'm waiting for them realize that the solution to "white
replacement" is make abortion illegal for white women ... and
mandatory for everybody else.

Give it time. Rome didn't fall in a day.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Sun, 09 Oct 2022 17:49:29 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 16:08:01 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <f3596eca-cdcc-4e10-a268-5ca59c1c0234n@googlegroups.com>,
>>Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 9:32:17 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>
>>>> If Putin is replaced by someone /sane/, they might get to continue to
>>>> lease the base at Sevastopl for their fleet. They would, of course,
>>>> have to pay the lease payments not paid during their illegal
>>>> occupation and the rates might well go up going forward.
>>>
>>>If Putin were replaced by someone *sane*, Russia would promptly
>>>agree to hand over all their armaments to NATO and adopt a peace
>>>constitution similar to Japan's. So they would not *have* a fleet to
>>>base in Sevastopol.
>>
>>(Hal Heydt)
>>That doesn't actually follow. They might not have a "blue water"
>>fleet, but they would still have a legitimate need to coastal
>>defense and search and rescue ships. I.e. A Coast Guard, even if
>>not a Navy, and a Coast Guard still needs ports (though not, I'd
>>agree, necessarily ones leased from some other country).
>
>What does "blue water" mean in this context given the Turks control
>the exit from the Black Sea?

Probably "not riverine".

Although, as others have pointed out, it is possible to get from the
Black Sea to the Mediterranean Sea. And from there to either the
Atlantic or the Red Sea, leading eventually to the Pacific.

Of course, as also pointed out, the first of those possibilites is
constricted -- and so are the other two. Not ideal.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> on Sun, 09 Oct 2022 17:49:29 -0700
typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 16:08:01 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>>Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 9:32:17 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> If Putin is replaced by someone /sane/, they might get to continue to
>>>> lease the base at Sevastopl for their fleet. They would, of course,
>>>> have to pay the lease payments not paid during their illegal
>>>> occupation and the rates might well go up going forward.
>>>If Putin were replaced by someone *sane*, Russia would promptly
>>>agree to hand over all their armaments to NATO and adopt a peace
>>>constitution similar to Japan's. So they would not *have* a fleet to
>>>base in Sevastopol.
>>
>>(Hal Heydt)
>>That doesn't actually follow. They might not have a "blue water"
>>fleet, but they would still have a legitimate need to coastal
>>defense and search and rescue ships. I.e. A Coast Guard, even if
>>not a Navy, and a Coast Guard still needs ports (though not, I'd
>>agree, necessarily ones leased from some other country).
>
>What does "blue water" mean in this context given the Turks control
>the exit from the Black Sea?

But there is a lot of "blue water" in the Black Sea. Not to
mention other Fleets.

As was said back in the day: The Soviets had reasons to worry,
they were the only country completely surrounded by hostile Communist
countries.

--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 08:49:08 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 11:33:06 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <ovq6kh9a7t8lphjr6...@4ax.com>,
>> The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca> wrote:
>> >On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 16:08:01 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >>In article <f3596eca-cdcc-4e10...@googlegroups.com>,
>> >>Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> >>>On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 9:32:17 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> If Putin is replaced by someone /sane/, they might get to continue to
>> >>>> lease the base at Sevastopl for their fleet. They would, of course,
>> >>>> have to pay the lease payments not paid during their illegal
>> >>>> occupation and the rates might well go up going forward.
>> >>>
>> >>>If Putin were replaced by someone *sane*, Russia would promptly
>> >>>agree to hand over all their armaments to NATO and adopt a peace
>> >>>constitution similar to Japan's. So they would not *have* a fleet to
>> >>>base in Sevastopol.
>> >>
>> >>(Hal Heydt)
>> >>That doesn't actually follow. They might not have a "blue water"
>> >>fleet, but they would still have a legitimate need to coastal
>> >>defense and search and rescue ships. I.e. A Coast Guard, even if
>> >>not a Navy, and a Coast Guard still needs ports (though not, I'd
>> >>agree, necessarily ones leased from some other country).
>> >
>> >What does "blue water" mean in this context given the Turks control
>> >the exit from the Black Sea?
>> (Hal Heydt)
>> Well... The Russian Black Sea fleet used to have a cruiser as
>> its flagship. There are international agreements covering
>> transit into and out of the Black Sea. So Sevastopol could be a
>> significant Naval Port for the Russians. They might have to be
>> sure to have ships on their preferred side of the Bosphoros as
>> part of planning for any significant action.
>
>I understand that there's a treaty that bans the Bosphorus passage
>to ships engaged in war. So Russia's (and Ukraine's) fleets in or out
>of the Black Sea can't be altered.
>
>Sevastopol is another reason Russia wants to retain
>Crimea. Aside from its historic significance, its loss
>would be require expensively building up Novorossiysk.

Putin -- loser of Sevastopol.

Has a nice ring to it.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

In article <t0h8kh9cj78248hmt1ktfe1bs7ocq7ici2@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Sun, 9 Oct 2022 08:49:49 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Saturday, October 8, 2022 at 9:57:05 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>
>>> Be interesting to see where /that/ goes. Freedom of Religion
>is in the
>>> Constitution; Freedem to Outlaw Abortion is not.
>>
>>The actions several states have taken in response to the repeal of
>>_Roe vs Wade_ have, very definitely, confirmed the truth of the
>stereotype
>>of the pro-life movement as being chiefly concerned with enforcing their
>>vision of sexual morality, rather than being genuinely concerned about
>>protecting the unborn while also being respectful of women.
>>
>>This, of course, is hardly surprising, seeing as we're dealing
>with people
>>who embraced Trump as their instrument for changing the Supreme
>>Court - at the cost of thousands of American lives needlessly lost to
>>COVID-19.
>>
>>At least some of the eccentric millionaires funding COVID-19
>disinformation
>>appear to have wanted the disease to kill off as many working-class
>>Americans as possible. And their goals, no doubt, were furthered by the
>>fact that oximeters - the most common kind, that shine a light
>through the
>>skin - don't come with an adjustment to correct for the effects
>of different
>>skin colors.
>>
>>So during the worst of the pandemic, black people didn't get put
>on ventilators
>>soon enough. On top of being less likely to have work-from-home jobs.
>
>Myself, I'm waiting for them realize that the solution to "white
>replacement" is make abortion illegal for white women ... and
>mandatory for everybody else.
>
>Give it time. Rome didn't fall in a day.

A lot of effort has been invested in ensuring medical outcomes
for POC are much worse than for Palid Americans, and that
definitely includes the odds of surviving childhood.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

In article <t0h8kh9cj78248hmt1ktfe1bs7ocq7ici2@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

> On Sun, 9 Oct 2022 08:49:49 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, October 8, 2022 at 9:57:05 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
> >
> >> Be interesting to see where /that/ goes. Freedom of Religion is in the
> >> Constitution; Freedem to Outlaw Abortion is not.
> >
> >The actions several states have taken in response to the repeal of
> >_Roe vs Wade_ have, very definitely, confirmed the truth of the stereotype
> >of the pro-life movement as being chiefly concerned with enforcing their
> >vision of sexual morality, rather than being genuinely concerned about
> >protecting the unborn while also being respectful of women.
> >
> >This, of course, is hardly surprising, seeing as we're dealing with people
> >who embraced Trump as their instrument for changing the Supreme
> >Court - at the cost of thousands of American lives needlessly lost to
> >COVID-19.
> >
> >At least some of the eccentric millionaires funding COVID-19 disinformation
> >appear to have wanted the disease to kill off as many working-class
> >Americans as possible. And their goals, no doubt, were furthered by the
> >fact that oximeters - the most common kind, that shine a light through the
> >skin - don't come with an adjustment to correct for the effects of different
> >skin colors.
> >
> >So during the worst of the pandemic, black people didn't get put on
> >ventilators
> >soon enough. On top of being less likely to have work-from-home jobs.
>
> Myself, I'm waiting for them realize that the solution to "white
> replacement" is make abortion illegal for white women ... and
> mandatory for everybody else.
>

I thought it was contraception that is the biggest contributor for the
low fertility rate of the Baby Boomer females (70%+ white) and their
daughters.

> Give it time. Rome didn't fall in a day.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:cb0abc93-bd19-4eb6-9244-88a9e8fc671dn@googlegroups.com:

> At least some of the eccentric millionaires funding COVID-19
> disinformation appear to have wanted the disease to kill off as
> many working-class Americans as possible.

Democrats are like that, yes.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote in
news:robertaw-F2784B.09514210102022@news.individual.net:

> In article <t0h8kh9cj78248hmt1ktfe1bs7ocq7ici2@4ax.com>,
> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 9 Oct 2022 08:49:49 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>> >On Saturday, October 8, 2022 at 9:57:05 AM UTC-6, Paul S
>> >Person wrote:
>> >
>> >> Be interesting to see where /that/ goes. Freedom of Religion
>> >> is in the Constitution; Freedem to Outlaw Abortion is not.
>> >
>> >The actions several states have taken in response to the
>> >repeal of _Roe vs Wade_ have, very definitely, confirmed the
>> >truth of the stereotype of the pro-life movement as being
>> >chiefly concerned with enforcing their vision of sexual
>> >morality, rather than being genuinely concerned about
>> >protecting the unborn while also being respectful of women.
>> >
>> >This, of course, is hardly surprising, seeing as we're dealing
>> >with people who embraced Trump as their instrument for
>> >changing the Supreme Court - at the cost of thousands of
>> >American lives needlessly lost to COVID-19.
>> >
>> >At least some of the eccentric millionaires funding COVID-19
>> >disinformation appear to have wanted the disease to kill off
>> >as many working-class Americans as possible. And their goals,
>> >no doubt, were furthered by the fact that oximeters - the most
>> >common kind, that shine a light through the skin - don't come
>> >with an adjustment to correct for the effects of different
>> >skin colors.
>> >
>> >So during the worst of the pandemic, black people didn't get
>> >put on ventilators
>> >soon enough. On top of being less likely to have
>> >work-from-home jobs.
>>
>> Myself, I'm waiting for them realize that the solution to
>> "white replacement" is make abortion illegal for white women
>> ... and mandatory for everybody else.
>>
>
> I thought it was contraception that is the biggest contributor
> for the low fertility rate of the Baby Boomer females (70%+
> white) and their daughters.
>
There are those who want to ban that, too.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.