Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:213glh91rrlpm6dqf88i43k784qqjvfiqv@4ax.com:

> On Mon, 24 Oct 2022 11:08:58 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
> Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>>news:rK9Mur.1n9u@kithrup.com:
>>
>>> In article <otcdlhdh96if36ter93fici9a8tkajkct5@4ax.com>,
>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>I saw something claiming that Putin was willing to lose 20M
>>>>(or was it 200M?) to win.
>>>
>>> (Hal Heydt)
>>> Since the population of Russia is about 140M--less those that
>>> have fled recently--he doesn't *have* 200M to lose. Even
>>> losing 20M would make for a severe adverse impact to the
>>> Russian economy.
>>
>>There's already storeis being done on the number of men who have
>>been drafted (and have a very high chance of never coming home)
>>or have fled the country to avoid it. Something over a million
>>have been documented.
>
> Men, as I understand it, from non-Russian peoples who decided to
> remain part of Russia when the Soviet Union died.
>
> Apparently, one drafting technique is to go into apartment
> buildings at 2AM, knock on doors, and give draft notices to any
> men found inside.
>
> Hey, at least they aren't being hauled out and shot! Some
> improvement has occurred!
>
>>> Mind you, from historical observation, so long as it is 20M
>>> *men* that die, the population could recover reasonably
>>> quickly, but in this day and age, there'd likely be some
>>> rather severe social upheaval in the process...and, all things
>>> considered, the population recovery might not happen.
>>>
>>Take a look at the "social upheave" from China's "one child"
>>policy, which produced millions of men who have no chance of
>>ever finding a wife.
>
> Natural-born cannon fodder.

For a cannon that can be very hard to aim at the other side.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Mon, 24 Oct 2022 10:03:42 -0700, Robert Woodward
<robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

>In article <otcdlhdh96if36ter93fici9a8tkajkct5@4ax.com>,
> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 23 Oct 2022 16:30:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>
><Snip>
>
>> >
>> >Basically, it was said that Russia's shelling and/or missiles had
>> >knocked out half the electrical power plants in Ukraine, and that
>> >this was liable to cause a "humanitarian catastrophe".
>>
>> And left much of the houses so damaged they cannot be heated.
>>
>> Even though a "mild" winter is forcast, a "mild" winter in Ukraine can
>> be quite ... cold ... in most of the country (the Black Sea never
>> freezes, so there is probably a warmer zone in the south).
>>
>
>Odesa has a temperature profile similar to Seattle's (perhaps a bit
>cooler in the winter), though the precipitation is more evenly spread
>out through the year. In contrast, Karkhiv's temperature profile
>resembles Minneapolis (note that Kharkiv is several degrees latitude
>further north).

Odesa (aka Odessa, particularly in WW2 histories) is on the Black Sea.

And Seattle has a heating season from, usually, October to May. If not
September to June.

Of course, it doesn't /really/ get cold until January (sometimes late
December, sometimes continues into early February).

I've never been in Minneapolis, but I suspect it gets a /lot/ colder
than Seattle in Winter.

This is really about areas without horizontal mountain chains, that
is, large plains with no windbreaks. In Summer, warm/moist air comes
up from the South; in Winter, cold/dry air comes down from the Arctic.
The Mississippi valley is similar. Chicago gets snow when the two
meet.

Seattle is a bit different: it gets its warm/moist air from what used
to be called the Pineapple Express, but apparently the pineapples felt
this was disrespectful, so now its an "atmospheric river".

We are currently enjoying, after a Long Hot Summer, some warm/moist
air. We can use the rain. When it eventually mixes with cold/dry air
from our North, it will snow in Seattle. (It's already snowing in the
Cascades, of course, due to the warm/moist air cooling as it moves
upslope. This also makes Eastern Washington a lot drier than Western
Washington.)
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On 25/10/2022 11.35, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Oct 2022 10:03:42 -0700, Robert Woodward
> <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <otcdlhdh96if36ter93fici9a8tkajkct5@4ax.com>,
>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 23 Oct 2022 16:30:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>
>> <Snip>
>>
>>>>
>>>> Basically, it was said that Russia's shelling and/or missiles had
>>>> knocked out half the electrical power plants in Ukraine, and that
>>>> this was liable to cause a "humanitarian catastrophe".
>>>
>>> And left much of the houses so damaged they cannot be heated.
>>>
>>> Even though a "mild" winter is forcast, a "mild" winter in Ukraine can
>>> be quite ... cold ... in most of the country (the Black Sea never
>>> freezes, so there is probably a warmer zone in the south).
>>>
>>
>> Odesa has a temperature profile similar to Seattle's (perhaps a bit
>> cooler in the winter), though the precipitation is more evenly spread
>> out through the year. In contrast, Karkhiv's temperature profile
>> resembles Minneapolis (note that Kharkiv is several degrees latitude
>> further north).
>
> Odesa (aka Odessa, particularly in WW2 histories) is on the Black Sea.
>
> And Seattle has a heating season from, usually, October to May. If not
> September to June.
>
> Of course, it doesn't /really/ get cold until January (sometimes late
> December, sometimes continues into early February).
>
> I've never been in Minneapolis, but I suspect it gets a /lot/ colder
> than Seattle in Winter.

No need to be suspicious:
<https://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/minneapolis/minnesota/united-states/usmn1524>

tl;dr:

The average *high* for December, January, and February is below freezing.

During the time that I lived there, there were multi-week periods when
it never got that high, and multiple consecutive days when the temperature
never went positive (Fahrenheit).

--
Michael F. Stemper
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.

Has anyone considered Putin might have meant 20 million of the total
population in a nuclear exchange?

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

In article <g82glh5d3a5b4gvbi8fes07igr4qlic350@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>Then again, Adolf ended up using 13-year-olds and 60-year-olds as
>soldiers, and ordering Speer to destroy the German economy (what there
>was left of it) so that the nation would not survive it's beloved
>Fuehrer.

(Hal Heydt)
In the late 1970s to early 1980s I worked with another programmer
who had been drafted into the Volksturm. The sotry was fairly
complex, but he wasn't in either of the extreme age cohorts.

He did mention that--while defending Breslau--they had very few
rifles, but a plentiful supply of panzerfaust. He remarked that,
when the Russians got into the city, you did *not* want to get
captured while holding a panzerfaust.

On 10/25/2022 3:46 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <g82glh5d3a5b4gvbi8fes07igr4qlic350@4ax.com>,
> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> Then again, Adolf ended up using 13-year-olds and 60-year-olds as
>> soldiers, and ordering Speer to destroy the German economy (what there
>> was left of it) so that the nation would not survive it's beloved
>> Fuehrer.
>
> (Hal Heydt)
> In the late 1970s to early 1980s I worked with another programmer
> who had been drafted into the Volksturm. The sotry was fairly
> complex, but he wasn't in either of the extreme age cohorts.
>
> He did mention that--while defending Breslau--they had very few
> rifles, but a plentiful supply of panzerfaust. He remarked that,
> when the Russians got into the city, you did *not* want to get
> captured while holding a panzerfaust.

By that point in the war you didn't want to get captured, period.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

In article <tj9qsp$28cit$1@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>On 10/25/2022 3:46 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <g82glh5d3a5b4gvbi8fes07igr4qlic350@4ax.com>,
>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>> Then again, Adolf ended up using 13-year-olds and 60-year-olds as
>>> soldiers, and ordering Speer to destroy the German economy (what there
>>> was left of it) so that the nation would not survive it's beloved
>>> Fuehrer.
>>
>> (Hal Heydt)
>> In the late 1970s to early 1980s I worked with another programmer
>> who had been drafted into the Volksturm. The sotry was fairly
>> complex, but he wasn't in either of the extreme age cohorts.
>>
>> He did mention that--while defending Breslau--they had very few
>> rifles, but a plentiful supply of panzerfaust. He remarked that,
>> when the Russians got into the city, you did *not* want to get
>> captured while holding a panzerfaust.
>
>By that point in the war you didn't want to get captured, period.

(Hal Heydt)
My co-worker did get captured, by the Russians. He then spent a
year in a POW camp. His opinion of Russian peasantry was
interesting, but not flattering. When they emptied the camp, he
got lucky and the train he was put on went to what became West
Germany. (The trains alternated east and west.)

On 26/10/2022 03:24, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Oct 2022 12:10:57 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 12:32:07 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
[SNIP]
>> It's only going to get worse. Births peaked in 1987, then fell by almost half by 1999. There was
>> a smaller echo of the 80s boom around 2012, but 10 year olds don't make good soldiers.
>
> In two or three years they'll be old enough -- at least, kids that age
> were old enough for Adolf in 1945.
>
Nah, my Dad was born in Berlin in 1932, and lived there until 1952.
They didn't try to arm the kids under 16, but he said there were many
stories about it after the war, probably as many as about where the
looted gold was stashed.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

On 10/25/2022 8:36 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
> On 26/10/2022 03:24, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Oct 2022 12:10:57 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 12:32:07 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> [SNIP]
>>> It's only going to get worse. Births peaked in 1987, then fell by
>>> almost half by 1999. There was
>>> a smaller echo of the 80s boom around 2012, but 10 year olds don't
>>> make good soldiers.
>>
>> In two or three years they'll be old enough -- at least, kids that age
>> were old enough for Adolf in 1945.
>>
> Nah, my Dad was born in Berlin in 1932, and lived there until 1952. They
> didn't try to arm the kids under 16, but he said there were many stories
> about it after the war, probably as many as about where the looted gold
> was stashed.
>
There is film footage of under 16's being armed. There is IIRC even
footage of Hitler reviewing and praising some who had already been in
combat and even if there isn't film it is a well documented event as it
was close to when he committed suicide.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 10/25/2022 6:46 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <tj9qsp$28cit$1@dont-email.me>,
> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 10/25/2022 3:46 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> In article <g82glh5d3a5b4gvbi8fes07igr4qlic350@4ax.com>,
>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Then again, Adolf ended up using 13-year-olds and 60-year-olds as
>>>> soldiers, and ordering Speer to destroy the German economy (what there
>>>> was left of it) so that the nation would not survive it's beloved
>>>> Fuehrer.
>>>
>>> (Hal Heydt)
>>> In the late 1970s to early 1980s I worked with another programmer
>>> who had been drafted into the Volksturm. The sotry was fairly
>>> complex, but he wasn't in either of the extreme age cohorts.
>>>
>>> He did mention that--while defending Breslau--they had very few
>>> rifles, but a plentiful supply of panzerfaust. He remarked that,
>>> when the Russians got into the city, you did *not* want to get
>>> captured while holding a panzerfaust.
>>
>> By that point in the war you didn't want to get captured, period.
>
> (Hal Heydt)
> My co-worker did get captured, by the Russians. He then spent a
> year in a POW camp. His opinion of Russian peasantry was
> interesting, but not flattering. When they emptied the camp, he
> got lucky and the train he was put on went to what became West
> Germany. (The trains alternated east and west.)

Twice very lucky man.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

In article <fjmm2j-5q9.ln1@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au>,
Gary R. Schmidt <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:
>On 26/10/2022 03:24, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Oct 2022 12:10:57 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 12:32:07 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>[SNIP]
>>> It's only going to get worse. Births peaked in 1987, then fell by
>almost half by 1999. There was
>>> a smaller echo of the 80s boom around 2012, but 10 year olds don't
>make good soldiers.
>>
>> In two or three years they'll be old enough -- at least, kids that age
>> were old enough for Adolf in 1945.
>>
>Nah, my Dad was born in Berlin in 1932, and lived there until 1952.
>They didn't try to arm the kids under 16, but he said there were many
>stories about it after the war, probably as many as about where the
>looted gold was stashed.

(Hal Heydt)
There were probably exceptions. There certainly were in the US.
Randall Garrett lied about his age and enlisted in the Marines at
15. If you see references to him carrying "a talisman no one has
ever seen," it's referring to a Japanese bullet in his leg.

On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 12:38:23 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <fjmm2j-...@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au>,
> Gary R. Schmidt <grsc...@acm.org> wrote:
> >On 26/10/2022 03:24, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> On Mon, 24 Oct 2022 12:10:57 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
> >> <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 12:32:07 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >[SNIP]
> >>> It's only going to get worse. Births peaked in 1987, then fell by
> >almost half by 1999. There was
> >>> a smaller echo of the 80s boom around 2012, but 10 year olds don't
> >make good soldiers.
> >>
> >> In two or three years they'll be old enough -- at least, kids that age
> >> were old enough for Adolf in 1945.
> >>
> >Nah, my Dad was born in Berlin in 1932, and lived there until 1952.
> >They didn't try to arm the kids under 16, but he said there were many
> >stories about it after the war, probably as many as about where the
> >looted gold was stashed.
> (Hal Heydt)
> There were probably exceptions. There certainly were in the US.
> Randall Garrett lied about his age and enlisted in the Marines at
> 15. If you see references to him carrying "a talisman no one has
> ever seen," it's referring to a Japanese bullet in his leg.

It appears that initiially, HJ under 16 weren't armed, but did participate in
support activities - air raid wardens, searchlight teams, etc.

https://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/hitleryouth/hj-boy-soldiers.htm

At the end, the rules seem to have gone away. I don't know how verified
these reports are:

"If the boys happened to get cornered by American patrols, they often
battled until the last boy was killed rather than surrender. And the
boys kept getting younger. American troops reported capturing armed
8-year-olds at Aachen in Western Germany and knocking out artillery
units operated entirely by boys aged twelve and under. Girls were also
used now, operating the 88mm anti-aircraft guns alongside the boys."

My uncle-by-marriage was a HJ member. He came to the US with
his father under Operation Paperclip (he was an expert on rolling
mills). He once showed me his HJ dagger. We didn't discuss the
matter, but he was fairly racist. He was around 12 at the end of the
war.

pt

On 24/10/2022 13.08, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
> news:rK9Mur.1n9u@kithrup.com:

>> Mind you, from historical observation, so long as it is 20M
>> *men* that die, the population could recover reasonably quickly,
>> but in this day and age, there'd likely be some rather severe
>> social upheaval in the process...and, all things considered, the
>> population recovery might not happen.
>>
> Take a look at the "social upheave" from China's "one child" policy,
> which produced millions of men who have no chance of ever finding a
> wife.

Wasn't that as much from female infanticide as it was from "one child"?

--
Michael F. Stemper
If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much
more like prunes than rhubarb does.

On 10/26/2022 6:29 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 24/10/2022 13.08, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>> news:rK9Mur.1n9u@kithrup.com:
>
>>> Mind you, from historical observation, so long as it is 20M
>>> *men* that die, the population could recover reasonably quickly,
>>> but in this day and age, there'd likely be some rather severe
>>> social upheaval in the process...and, all things considered, the
>>> population recovery might not happen.
>>>
>> Take a look at the "social upheave" from China's "one child" policy,
>> which produced millions of men who have no chance of ever finding a
>> wife.
>
> Wasn't that as much from female infanticide as it was from "one child"?
>
The female infanticide was _because_ of the One Child rule. Without the
One Child rule the poorer families would have kept on doing what they
did before it, just keep having kids until they finally get a male
offspring.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 9:29:52 AM UTC-4, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 24/10/2022 13.08, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> > djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
> > news:rK9Mu...@kithrup.com:
> >> Mind you, from historical observation, so long as it is 20M
> >> *men* that die, the population could recover reasonably quickly,
> >> but in this day and age, there'd likely be some rather severe
> >> social upheaval in the process...and, all things considered, the
> >> population recovery might not happen.
> >>
> > Take a look at the "social upheave" from China's "one child" policy,
> > which produced millions of men who have no chance of ever finding a
> > wife.
> Wasn't that as much from female infanticide as it was from "one child"?

One encouraged the other.

The drop off in births of both sexes is far bigger than the over supply of
men:

See the population pyramid:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China#/media/File:China_population_sex_by_age_on_Nov,_1st,_2020.png

There are half as many 17 year olds of both sexes (just entering child bearing age) as 30 year olds (starting to leave it).
China can expect a crash in the number of children and new workers.

pt

On 26/10/2022 09.31, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 10/26/2022 6:29 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> On 24/10/2022 13.08, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:

>>> Take a look at the "social upheave" from China's "one child" policy,
>>> which produced millions of men who have no chance of ever finding a
>>> wife.
>>
>> Wasn't that as much from female infanticide as it was from "one child"?
>>
> The female infanticide was _because_ of the One Child rule.  Without the One Child rule the poorer families would have kept on doing what they did before it, just keep having kids until they finally get a male offspring.

Ah. Got it.

--
Michael F. Stemper
This post contains greater than 95% post-consumer bytes by weight.

On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 07:34:27 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 9:29:52 AM UTC-4, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> On 24/10/2022 13.08, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> > djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>> > news:rK9Mu...@kithrup.com:
>> >> Mind you, from historical observation, so long as it is 20M
>> >> *men* that die, the population could recover reasonably quickly,
>> >> but in this day and age, there'd likely be some rather severe
>> >> social upheaval in the process...and, all things considered, the
>> >> population recovery might not happen.
>> >>
>> > Take a look at the "social upheave" from China's "one child" policy,
>> > which produced millions of men who have no chance of ever finding a
>> > wife.
>> Wasn't that as much from female infanticide as it was from "one child"?
>
>One encouraged the other.
>
>The drop off in births of both sexes is far bigger than the over supply of
>men:
>
>See the population pyramid:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China#/media/File:China_population_sex_by_age_on_Nov,_1st,_2020.png
>
>There are half as many 17 year olds of both sexes (just entering child bearing age) as 30 year olds (starting to leave it).
>China can expect a crash in the number of children and new workers.

Since children must be fed, and consume other resources, that might
actually raise the standard of living. For a while, anyway.

And, as Keynes would say, "in the long run we are all dead". So "for a
while" is good enough for the Party bosses.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 20:52:47 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 10/25/2022 8:36 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>> On 26/10/2022 03:24, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Mon, 24 Oct 2022 12:10:57 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
>>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 12:32:07 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> [SNIP]
>>>> It's only going to get worse. Births peaked in 1987, then fell by
>>>> almost half by 1999. There was
>>>> a smaller echo of the 80s boom around 2012, but 10 year olds don't
>>>> make good soldiers.
>>>
>>> In two or three years they'll be old enough -- at least, kids that age
>>> were old enough for Adolf in 1945.
>>>
>> Nah, my Dad was born in Berlin in 1932, and lived there until 1952. They
>> didn't try to arm the kids under 16, but he said there were many stories
>> about it after the war, probably as many as about where the looted gold
>> was stashed.
>>
>There is film footage of under 16's being armed. There is IIRC even
>footage of Hitler reviewing and praising some who had already been in
>combat and even if there isn't film it is a well documented event as it
>was close to when he committed suicide.

I'm hoping that by "film footage" you don't mean /Downfall/, which
does indeed show such scenes, but is not a documentary and may be
showing them because they are expected.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 06:22:39 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 12:38:23 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <fjmm2j-...@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au>,
>> Gary R. Schmidt <grsc...@acm.org> wrote:
>> >On 26/10/2022 03:24, Paul S Person wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 24 Oct 2022 12:10:57 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
>> >> <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 12:32:07 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> >[SNIP]
>> >>> It's only going to get worse. Births peaked in 1987, then fell by
>> >almost half by 1999. There was
>> >>> a smaller echo of the 80s boom around 2012, but 10 year olds don't
>> >make good soldiers.
>> >>
>> >> In two or three years they'll be old enough -- at least, kids that age
>> >> were old enough for Adolf in 1945.
>> >>
>> >Nah, my Dad was born in Berlin in 1932, and lived there until 1952.
>> >They didn't try to arm the kids under 16, but he said there were many
>> >stories about it after the war, probably as many as about where the
>> >looted gold was stashed.
>> (Hal Heydt)
>> There were probably exceptions. There certainly were in the US.
>> Randall Garrett lied about his age and enlisted in the Marines at
>> 15. If you see references to him carrying "a talisman no one has
>> ever seen," it's referring to a Japanese bullet in his leg.
>
>It appears that initiially, HJ under 16 weren't armed, but did participate in
>support activities - air raid wardens, searchlight teams, etc.
>
>https://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/hitleryouth/hj-boy-soldiers.htm
>
>At the end, the rules seem to have gone away. I don't know how verified
>these reports are:
>
>"If the boys happened to get cornered by American patrols, they often
>battled until the last boy was killed rather than surrender. And the
>boys kept getting younger. American troops reported capturing armed
>8-year-olds at Aachen in Western Germany and knocking out artillery
>units operated entirely by boys aged twelve and under. Girls were also
>used now, operating the 88mm anti-aircraft guns alongside the boys."

At those ages, they were probably about the same physically. And in
deludability.

>My uncle-by-marriage was a HJ member. He came to the US with
>his father under Operation Paperclip (he was an expert on rolling
>mills). He once showed me his HJ dagger. We didn't discuss the
>matter, but he was fairly racist. He was around 12 at the end of the
>war.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 12:37:49 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>
>Has anyone considered Putin might have meant 20 million of the total
>population in a nuclear exchange?

That's not the impression I got, but I suppose it is possible.

The problem is, that would not guarantee victory in the Ukraine.

Might guarantee a NATO invasion of Russia, however.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On 10/26/2022 8:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 20:52:47 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/25/2022 8:36 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>>> On 26/10/2022 03:24, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 24 Oct 2022 12:10:57 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
>>>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 12:32:07 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> [SNIP]
>>>>> It's only going to get worse. Births peaked in 1987, then fell by
>>>>> almost half by 1999. There was
>>>>> a smaller echo of the 80s boom around 2012, but 10 year olds don't
>>>>> make good soldiers.
>>>>
>>>> In two or three years they'll be old enough -- at least, kids that age
>>>> were old enough for Adolf in 1945.
>>>>
>>> Nah, my Dad was born in Berlin in 1932, and lived there until 1952. They
>>> didn't try to arm the kids under 16, but he said there were many stories
>>> about it after the war, probably as many as about where the looted gold
>>> was stashed.
>>>
>> There is film footage of under 16's being armed. There is IIRC even
>> footage of Hitler reviewing and praising some who had already been in
>> combat and even if there isn't film it is a well documented event as it
>> was close to when he committed suicide.
>
> I'm hoping that by "film footage" you don't mean /Downfall/, which
> does indeed show such scenes, but is not a documentary and may be
> showing them because they are expected.

No, I don't mean 'Downfall'. I don't think I've even seen it.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

"Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote in
news:tjbcob$2fm32$2@dont-email.me:

> On 24/10/2022 13.08, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>> news:rK9Mur.1n9u@kithrup.com:
>
>>> Mind you, from historical observation, so long as it is 20M
>>> *men* that die, the population could recover reasonably
>>> quickly, but in this day and age, there'd likely be some
>>> rather severe social upheaval in the process...and, all things
>>> considered, the population recovery might not happen.
>>>
>> Take a look at the "social upheave" from China's "one child"
>> policy, which produced millions of men who have no chance of
>> ever finding a wife.
>
> Wasn't that as much from female infanticide as it was from "one
> child"?
>
Do you believe that the female infanticide was caused, in any way
whatsoever, even a little bit, by anything other than the one child
policy?

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:p9lilhd7s4ikmocepgt7k7sd58jjmebmgu@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 07:34:27 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 9:29:52 AM UTC-4, Michael F.
>>Stemper wrote:
>>> On 24/10/2022 13.08, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>> > djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>>> > news:rK9Mu...@kithrup.com:
>>> >> Mind you, from historical observation, so long as it is 20M
>>> >> *men* that die, the population could recover reasonably
>>> >> quickly, but in this day and age, there'd likely be some
>>> >> rather severe social upheaval in the process...and, all
>>> >> things considered, the population recovery might not
>>> >> happen.
>>> >>
>>> > Take a look at the "social upheave" from China's "one child"
>>> > policy, which produced millions of men who have no chance of
>>> > ever finding a wife.
>>> Wasn't that as much from female infanticide as it was from
>>> "one child"?
>>
>>One encouraged the other.
>>
>>The drop off in births of both sexes is far bigger than the over
>>supply of men:
>>
>>See the population pyramid:
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China#/media/File:C
>>hina_population_sex_by_age_on_Nov,_1st,_2020.png
>>
>>There are half as many 17 year olds of both sexes (just entering
>>child bearing age) as 30 year olds (starting to leave it). China
>>can expect a crash in the number of children and new workers.
>
> Since children must be fed, and consume other resources, that
> might actually raise the standard of living. For a while,
> anyway.
>
> And, as Keynes would say, "in the long run we are all dead". So
> "for a while" is good enough for the Party bosses.

Party bosses assume they will not be the ones to suffer the effects
of an aging population and shrinking tax base.

They're probably correct.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>"Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote in
>news:tjbcob$2fm32$2@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 24/10/2022 13.08, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>> djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>>> news:rK9Mur.1n9u@kithrup.com:
>>
>>>> Mind you, from historical observation, so long as it is 20M
>>>> *men* that die, the population could recover reasonably
>>>> quickly, but in this day and age, there'd likely be some
>>>> rather severe social upheaval in the process...and, all things
>>>> considered, the population recovery might not happen.
>>>>
>>> Take a look at the "social upheave" from China's "one child"
>>> policy, which produced millions of men who have no chance of
>>> ever finding a wife.
>>
>> Wasn't that as much from female infanticide as it was from "one
>> child"?
>>
>Do you believe that the female infanticide was caused, in any way
>whatsoever, even a little bit, by anything other than the one child
>policy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_preference_in_China

While the article is rather poorly translated, and doesn't explicitly
mention female infanticide outside of the context of modern day
ultrasound, it's likely that it occurred historically.

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in
news:kZe6L.73592$kEr7.44991@fx44.iad:

> Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>>"Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote in
>>news:tjbcob$2fm32$2@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 24/10/2022 13.08, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>> djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>>>> news:rK9Mur.1n9u@kithrup.com:
>>>
>>>>> Mind you, from historical observation, so long as it is 20M
>>>>> *men* that die, the population could recover reasonably
>>>>> quickly, but in this day and age, there'd likely be some
>>>>> rather severe social upheaval in the process...and, all
>>>>> things considered, the population recovery might not happen.
>>>>>
>>>> Take a look at the "social upheave" from China's "one child"
>>>> policy, which produced millions of men who have no chance of
>>>> ever finding a wife.
>>>
>>> Wasn't that as much from female infanticide as it was from
>>> "one child"?
>>>
>>Do you believe that the female infanticide was caused, in any
>>way whatsoever, even a little bit, by anything other than the
>>one child policy?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_preference_in_China
>
> While the article is rather poorly translated, and doesn't
> explicitly mention female infanticide outside of the context of
> modern day ultrasound, it's likely that it occurred
> historically.
>
If you trust Wikipedia to tell you what the day of the week is,
much less provide accurate context on a controversial historical
subject.

Current consensus, however, seems to vary

https://www.npr.org/2016/02/01/465124337/how-chinas-one-child-
policy-led-to-forced-abortions-30-million-bachelors
https://tinyurl.com/42hh5hh9

"How China's One-Child Policy Led To Forced Abortions, 30 Million
Bachelors"

https://tinyurl.com/4atewh3c
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1985/01/08/chinas-
birth-control-policy-drives-some-to-kill-baby-girls/77bf59d0-b0c0-
4261-a1e5-51ea6a3b8939/

"China's Birth Control Policy Drives Some to Kill Baby Girls"

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.