On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 21:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
<hamish.laws@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 1:27:37 AM UTC+11, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 6:14:08 AM UTC-4, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> > On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 20:21:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> > <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >> Even in this age of nuclear weapons, as the Cold War demonstrated, aggression
>> > >> needs to be met with firm resolve and not appeasement.
>> > >>
>> > >> John Savard
>> > >
>> > >But, the Ukraine has no known nuclear weapons. Russia has a lot of
>> > >them. Including the nuclear weapons Ukraine turned over to Russia in
>> > >the not too distant past.
>> > >
>> > >If I was Ukraine, I would not advance my troops across the border.
>> >
>> > Trouble is where do you define "the border" to be? Zelensky says 'the
>> > border' is the 1/1/1992 boundaries of Ukraine and that very much
>> > includes all the "separatist provinces" as well as the Crimea. And has
>> > said so publicly within the past month.
>> >
>> > Even if the man in Moscow is someone other than Putin while they might
>> > well get their 4 provinces back (e.g. the Eastern Ukraine provinces),
>> > getting Crimea back at the peace table could be tough unless they're
>> > physically in possesion of it when the fighting eventually stops and
>> > if Putin says he's "putting a nuclear umbrella over Crimea" that could
>> > be difficult.
>> Crimea's a tough one. It's "native population" are the Crimean Tartars, but
>> they were about 11% of the population in 2014. At that point, ethnic
>> Ukrainians were only 16%, while ethnic Russians stood at 68%.
>>
>> This is partly due to Stalin's policy of 'Russification', scattering non-Russians
>> across the union, while moving ethnic Russians into their place. In 1989, less
>> than 2% of Crimeans were Tartars, but many have since moved back.
>
>12% now
>>
>> On top of that, Crimea was part of the Russian Republic until 1954, when Khrushchev
>> transferred it to Ukraine.
>>
>> So saying 'who should have it' isn't easy. The people are mostly Russian, and it was
>> part of Russia until 70 years ago. OTOH, it was legally transferred to Ukraine, and
>> then illegally seized by Russia in 2014.
>>
>> ... and no one seems to be asking the Tartars what *they* want.
>>
>Nor for that matter the ethnic russians who live in Crimea (the trustworthiness of the Russian poll is nil)
>Considering the russian behaviour in Crimea and other occupied territories it seems unlikely they'd be looking favourably on Russia now

I expect that some would and some would not.

And, if Ukraine regains the Crimea, I would expect that some ethnic
Russians will go back to Mother Russia -- and others will stay put as
(hopefully) loyal citizens of Ukraine.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On 2022-10-06 08:09, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
> news:7b287035-a931-4cfb-9371-a50cfea8220cn@googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert
>> Woodward wrote:
>>
>>> Does significant include cities in the USA that support a
>>> Russian Orthodox church?
>>
>> Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy.
>
> There is consideable evidence that he actually is. He's encouraged by
> how weak an ineffective the current administration is.
>

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

Tell us all, Terry:

What would a "strong and effective" administration have done?

On Wednesday, 5 October 2022 at 14:43:09 UTC+1, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 4:53:41 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 8:27:37 AM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > Crimea's a tough one. It's "native population" are the Crimean Tartars, but
> > > they were about 11% of the population in 2014. At that point, ethnic
> > > Ukrainians were only 16%, while ethnic Russians stood at 68%.
> > >
> > > This is partly due to Stalin's policy of 'Russification', scattering non-Russians
> > > across the union, while moving ethnic Russians into their place. In 1989, less
> > > than 2% of Crimeans were Tartars, but many have since moved back.
> > >
> > > On top of that, Crimea was part of the Russian Republic until 1954, when Khrushchev
> > > transferred it to Ukraine.
> > >
> > > So saying 'who should have it' isn't easy. The people are mostly Russian, and it was
> > > part of Russia until 70 years ago. OTOH, it was legally transferred to Ukraine, and
> > > then illegally seized by Russia in 2014.
> > Presumably Crimea belongs to whoever lived there before the first military aggression
> > against Crimea took place.
> God, the historical ignorance here blows my mind.

Most of Quadi's contributions on the subject look
to me like sincere stupidity and not deliberate
trolling, but that last remark is sarcasm, I think.

Of course Quadi therefore is arguing that Russian
army occupation is might-makes-right, so he's
stupid at the same time as sarcastic.

djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:rJC8x4.K69@kithrup.com:

> In article
> <7b287035-a931-4cfb-9371-a50cfea8220cn@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert
>>Woodward wrote:
>>
>>> Does significant include cities in the USA that support a
>>> Russian Orthodox church?
>>
>>Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on those
>>who they see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not the United
>>States, in the case of Putin and Russia.
>
> (Hal Heydt)
> I don't know... The Soviet Union used--occasionaly--to insist
> that the Czar had no right sell land "owned by the people"
> referring specifically to Alaska.
>
Some of Putin's toadies have made noises about reclaiming Alaska, but
Putin himself has poo-pooed the idea.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>news:rJC8x4.K69@kithrup.com:
>
>> In article
>> <7b287035-a931-4cfb-9371-a50cfea8220cn@googlegroups.com>,
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert
>>>Woodward wrote:
>>>
>>>> Does significant include cities in the USA that support a
>>>> Russian Orthodox church?
>>>
>>>Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on those
>>>who they see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not the United
>>>States, in the case of Putin and Russia.
>>
>> (Hal Heydt)
>> I don't know... The Soviet Union used--occasionaly--to insist
>> that the Czar had no right sell land "owned by the people"
>> referring specifically to Alaska.
>>
>Some of Putin's toadies have made noises about reclaiming Alaska, but
>Putin himself has poo-pooed the idea.
>

Unlike the twit trump who tried to buy greenland....

On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:06:50 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
> news:rJC8x...@kithrup.com:
> > In article
> > <7b287035-a931-4cfb...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >>On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert
> >>Woodward wrote:
> >>
> >>> Does significant include cities in the USA that support a
> >>> Russian Orthodox church?
> >>
> >>Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on those
> >>who they see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not the United
> >>States, in the case of Putin and Russia.
> >
> > (Hal Heydt)
> > I don't know... The Soviet Union used--occasionaly--to insist
> > that the Czar had no right sell land "owned by the people"
> > referring specifically to Alaska.
> >
> Some of Putin's toadies have made noises about reclaiming Alaska, but
> Putin himself has poo-pooed the idea.

I tend to think this is just minions under an absolute ruler trying to one-up
each other in how loyal they can be. You'll see this more clearly in NK,
where we learn that Kim Jong-un is "too perfect to need to urinate or
defecate".

When a dictatorship reached that point, it gone.

pt

On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:03:52 PM UTC+1, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:51:39 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert Woodward wrote:
> > >
> > > > Does significant include cities in the USA that support a Russian
> > > > Orthodox church?
> >
> > > Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on those who they
> > > see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not the United States, in the
> > > case of Putin and Russia.
> > But then, speaking of the Orthodox Church, popular Orthodox priest, the
> > youthful Okhlobystin, gave a speech in Red Square where he declares that
> > the countries of the world hostile to Russia, as they are ruled by perverts
> > and Satanists, should tremble.
> I've been seeing reports that Orthodox churches in the US are seeing an
> uptick in membership from right-wing conservatives - the patriarchal,
> conservative, homophobic, transphobic positions of the church are
> attractive to the same crowd that likes Trump.
>
> pt
The Orthodox churches are interesting because if you look at modern mainstream western accounts of the Great Schism you may find something close to an admission that the Eastern churches were in the right, and the theology and worship of Orthodox churches is much closer to the theology and worship of Eastern churches at the time of the Great Schism than the theology and worship of any current Western church is to anything similarly ancient. It is unfortunate that Orthodox churches have so often been closely linked with unattractive governments. I did a search once on their position on church-state links and found a text (I think from an American and certainly English-speaking source) which suggested that this linkage was not intrinsic to their theology.

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in
news:%jD%K.748434$BKL8.355584@fx15.iad:

> Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>>news:rJC8x4.K69@kithrup.com:
>>
>>> In article
>>> <7b287035-a931-4cfb-9371-a50cfea8220cn@googlegroups.com>,
>>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert
>>>>Woodward wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Does significant include cities in the USA that support a
>>>>> Russian Orthodox church?
>>>>
>>>>Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on those
>>>>who they see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not the
>>>>United States, in the case of Putin and Russia.
>>>
>>> (Hal Heydt)
>>> I don't know... The Soviet Union used--occasionaly--to insist
>>> that the Czar had no right sell land "owned by the people"
>>> referring specifically to Alaska.
>>>
>>Some of Putin's toadies have made noises about reclaiming
>>Alaska, but Putin himself has poo-pooed the idea.
>>
>
> Unlike the twit trump who tried to buy greenland....
>
So you equate a legitimate purchase (assuming that's even what was
proposed) with military invasion and conquest through war crimes,
just because Orange Man Bad? Or is it that you just want to suck
Putin's dick?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_derangement_syndrome

Moron.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 4:53:39 PM UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 21:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
> <hamis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 1:27:37 AM UTC+11, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 6:14:08 AM UTC-4, The Horny Goat wrote:
> >> > On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 20:21:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> >> > <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >> Even in this age of nuclear weapons, as the Cold War demonstrated, aggression
> >> > >> needs to be met with firm resolve and not appeasement.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> John Savard
> >> > >
> >> > >But, the Ukraine has no known nuclear weapons. Russia has a lot of
> >> > >them. Including the nuclear weapons Ukraine turned over to Russia in
> >> > >the not too distant past.
> >> > >
> >> > >If I was Ukraine, I would not advance my troops across the border.
> >> >
> >> > Trouble is where do you define "the border" to be? Zelensky says 'the
> >> > border' is the 1/1/1992 boundaries of Ukraine and that very much
> >> > includes all the "separatist provinces" as well as the Crimea. And has
> >> > said so publicly within the past month.
> >> >
> >> > Even if the man in Moscow is someone other than Putin while they might
> >> > well get their 4 provinces back (e.g. the Eastern Ukraine provinces),
> >> > getting Crimea back at the peace table could be tough unless they're
> >> > physically in possesion of it when the fighting eventually stops and
> >> > if Putin says he's "putting a nuclear umbrella over Crimea" that could
> >> > be difficult.
> >> Crimea's a tough one. It's "native population" are the Crimean Tartars, but
> >> they were about 11% of the population in 2014. At that point, ethnic
> >> Ukrainians were only 16%, while ethnic Russians stood at 68%.
> >>
> >> This is partly due to Stalin's policy of 'Russification', scattering non-Russians
> >> across the union, while moving ethnic Russians into their place. In 1989, less
> >> than 2% of Crimeans were Tartars, but many have since moved back.
> >
> >12% now
> >>
> >> On top of that, Crimea was part of the Russian Republic until 1954, when Khrushchev
> >> transferred it to Ukraine.
> >>
> >> So saying 'who should have it' isn't easy. The people are mostly Russian, and it was
> >> part of Russia until 70 years ago. OTOH, it was legally transferred to Ukraine, and
> >> then illegally seized by Russia in 2014.
> >>
> >> ... and no one seems to be asking the Tartars what *they* want.
> >>
> >Nor for that matter the ethnic russians who live in Crimea (the trustworthiness of the Russian poll is nil)
> >Considering the russian behaviour in Crimea and other occupied territories it seems unlikely they'd be looking favourably on Russia now
> I expect that some would and some would not.
>
> And, if Ukraine regains the Crimea, I would expect that some ethnic
> Russians will go back to Mother Russia -- and others will stay put as
> (hopefully) loyal citizens of Ukraine.
> --
> "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
> development was the disintegration, under Christian
> influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
> of family right."
Some of those Ukranians turning up to support the Ukrainian point of view on podcasts such as the Telegraph Ukraine podcast claim to have grown up as Russian speakers within Ukraine but to have switched to speaking Ukrainian since the Russian takeover of Crimea. Also, every indication we have suggests that the experience of Russian occupation does not encourage people to seek more of it.

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in
news:90d28bc8-440e-4792-9d2d-d9ef9c08be25n@googlegroups.com:

> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:06:50 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>> news:rJC8x...@kithrup.com:
>> > In article
>> > <7b287035-a931-4cfb...@googlegroups.com>,
>> > Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> >>On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert
>> >>Woodward wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Does significant include cities in the USA that support a
>> >>> Russian Orthodox church?
>> >>
>> >>Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on
>> >>those who they see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not
>> >>the United States, in the case of Putin and Russia.
>> >
>> > (Hal Heydt)
>> > I don't know... The Soviet Union used--occasionaly--to insist
>> > that the Czar had no right sell land "owned by the people"
>> > referring specifically to Alaska.
>> >
>> Some of Putin's toadies have made noises about reclaiming
>> Alaska, but Putin himself has poo-pooed the idea.
>
> I tend to think this is just minions under an absolute ruler
> trying to one-up each other in how loyal they can be.

I'm inclined to agree. They have a lot of experience at saying what
they believe he wants to hear, and very little experience with what
he *needs* to hear.

So far, though, he has, if barely, enough raw survival instinct to
avoid threatening to invade the United States. So far.

> You'll see
> this more clearly in NK, where we learn that Kim Jong-un is "too
> perfect to need to urinate or defecate".
>
> When a dictatorship reached that point, it gone.
>
And yet, Kim is still in power in NK.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote in
news:d84d7c25-b8b1-42aa-8e5e-643ca23445cbn@googlegroups.com:

> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 9:03:52 AM UTC-4,
> pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:51:39 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc
>> wrote:
>> > On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc
>> > wrote:
>> > > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert
>> > > Woodward wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Does significant include cities in the USA that support a
>> > > > Russian Orthodox church?
>> >
>> > > Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on
>> > > those who they see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not
>> > > the United States, in the case of Putin and Russia.
>> > But then, speaking of the Orthodox Church, popular Orthodox
>> > priest, the youthful Okhlobystin, gave a speech in Red Square
>> > where he declares that the countries of the world hostile to
>> > Russia, as they are ruled by perverts and Satanists, should
>> > tremble.
>> I've been seeing reports that Orthodox churches in the US are
>> seeing an uptick in membership from right-wing conservatives -
>> the patriarchal, conservative, homophobic, transphobic
>> positions of the church are attractive to the same crowd that
>> likes Trump.
>>
>> pt
>
> Conservatives losing the battle with liberal Episcopalians
> (Anglicans) have been linking up with other Orthodox churches
> for some time

The US branch of "liberal Episcoplians" have basically become a
secular, and largely atheist, political organization. The fight for
control has been very nasty for a long time, and those who believe
their religion should be religious have gone elsewhere. This should
surprise no one.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in
>news:%jD%K.748434$BKL8.355584@fx15.iad:
>
>> Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>>>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>>>news:rJC8x4.K69@kithrup.com:
>>>
>>>> In article
>>>> <7b287035-a931-4cfb-9371-a50cfea8220cn@googlegroups.com>,
>>>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>>On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert
>>>>>Woodward wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Does significant include cities in the USA that support a
>>>>>> Russian Orthodox church?
>>>>>
>>>>>Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on those
>>>>>who they see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not the
>>>>>United States, in the case of Putin and Russia.
>>>>
>>>> (Hal Heydt)
>>>> I don't know... The Soviet Union used--occasionaly--to insist
>>>> that the Czar had no right sell land "owned by the people"
>>>> referring specifically to Alaska.
>>>>
>>>Some of Putin's toadies have made noises about reclaiming
>>>Alaska, but Putin himself has poo-pooed the idea.
>>>
>>
>> Unlike the twit trump who tried to buy greenland....
>>
>So you equate a legitimate purchase (assuming that's even what was

No, I think they're both twits. As are their followers.

On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 7:03:52 AM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:

> I've been seeing reports that Orthodox churches in the US are seeing an
> uptick in membership from right-wing conservatives - the patriarchal,
> conservative, homophobic, transphobic positions of the church are
> attractive to the same crowd that likes Trump.

I wouldn't know about that, but I do know that Hal Lindsey, famous as the
author of "The Late Great Planet Earth" ended up retiring from being a
Fundamentalist author and converted to Orthodox Christianity.

The Bible contains the following:

Matthew 16:18-19

And I also say unto thee: that thou art Peter,
and upon this rock I will build My church; and
the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom
of Heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on
Earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever
thou shalt loose on Earth shall be loosed in
Heaven.

So what's a Protestant to do? The Word of God, here
quoting the words of Jesus Himself, says that there
is an apostolic succession. But they wouldn't be
Protestants if they didn't know that the Roman
Catholic Church was a false church that was in
rebellion against God.

The Orthodox Church is the only way out of this
paradox, at least if you don't count the Coptic
Christian Church, or the Ethiopian Tewahedo
Orthodox Church, and so on.

John Savard

In article <ocutjh9moiu5r4ij849lq5va9l4eldimbo@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>And, if Ukraine regains the Crimea, I would expect that some ethnic
>Russians will go back to Mother Russia -- and others will stay put as
>(hopefully) loyal citizens of Ukraine.

(Hal Heydt)
I saw a report about three months ago about Russian officers
(possibly retired ones) moving their families out of Crimea and
back to whatever part of Russia they'd come from. This might
have been more a case of getting them out of missile range of
Ukraine capabilities than worrying about Crimea changing hands.

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:

> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:51:39 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert Woodward wrote:
>> >
>> > > Does significant include cities in the USA that support a Russian
>> > > Orthodox church?
>>
>> > Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on those who
>> > they see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not the United States,
>> > in the case of Putin and Russia.
>> But then, speaking of the Orthodox Church, popular Orthodox priest,
>> the youthful Okhlobystin, gave a speech in Red Square where he
>> declares that the countries of the world hostile to Russia, as they
>> are ruled by perverts and Satanists, should tremble.
>
> I've been seeing reports that Orthodox churches in the US are seeing
> an uptick in membership from right-wing conservatives - the
> patriarchal, conservative, homophobic, transphobic positions of the
> church are attractive to the same crowd that likes Trump.
>
> pt

Woah man. I'm just practicing my faith. You need to chill out.

--
Pointless meanderings in a bleak and lonely world.

5GyYap52yQ1UGMWD <ehj46PkBWfBAng9C@VW28LtWn6wknpUMV.invalid> writes:
>"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:51:39 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert Woodward wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Does significant include cities in the USA that support a Russian
>>> > > Orthodox church?
>>>
>>> > Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on those who
>>> > they see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not the United States,
>>> > in the case of Putin and Russia.
>>> But then, speaking of the Orthodox Church, popular Orthodox priest,
>>> the youthful Okhlobystin, gave a speech in Red Square where he
>>> declares that the countries of the world hostile to Russia, as they
>>> are ruled by perverts and Satanists, should tremble.
>>
>> I've been seeing reports that Orthodox churches in the US are seeing
>> an uptick in membership from right-wing conservatives - the
>> patriarchal, conservative, homophobic, transphobic positions of the
>> church are attractive to the same crowd that likes Trump.
>>
>> pt
>
>Woah man. I'm just practicing my faith. You need to chill out.

You need to mind your own business.

djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>In article <ocutjh9moiu5r4ij849lq5va9l4eldimbo@4ax.com>,
>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>And, if Ukraine regains the Crimea, I would expect that some ethnic
>>Russians will go back to Mother Russia -- and others will stay put as
>>(hopefully) loyal citizens of Ukraine.
>
>(Hal Heydt)
>I saw a report about three months ago about Russian officers
>(possibly retired ones) moving their families out of Crimea and
>back to whatever part of Russia they'd come from. This might
>have been more a case of getting them out of missile range of
>Ukraine capabilities than worrying about Crimea changing hands.

IIRC, that was just after the Ukrainians sunk that Russian
cruiser.

On 10/6/2022 9:01 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Wednesday, 5 October 2022 at 14:43:09 UTC+1, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 4:53:41 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 8:27:37 AM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Crimea's a tough one. It's "native population" are the Crimean Tartars, but
>>>> they were about 11% of the population in 2014. At that point, ethnic
>>>> Ukrainians were only 16%, while ethnic Russians stood at 68%.
>>>>
>>>> This is partly due to Stalin's policy of 'Russification', scattering non-Russians
>>>> across the union, while moving ethnic Russians into their place. In 1989, less
>>>> than 2% of Crimeans were Tartars, but many have since moved back.
>>>>
>>>> On top of that, Crimea was part of the Russian Republic until 1954, when Khrushchev
>>>> transferred it to Ukraine.
>>>>
>>>> So saying 'who should have it' isn't easy. The people are mostly Russian, and it was
>>>> part of Russia until 70 years ago. OTOH, it was legally transferred to Ukraine, and
>>>> then illegally seized by Russia in 2014.
>>> Presumably Crimea belongs to whoever lived there before the first military aggression
>>> against Crimea took place.
>> God, the historical ignorance here blows my mind.
>
> Most of Quadi's contributions on the subject look
> to me like sincere stupidity and not deliberate
> trolling, but that last remark is sarcasm, I think.
>
> Of course Quadi therefore is arguing that Russian
> army occupation is might-makes-right, so he's
> stupid at the same time as sarcastic.

I think attributing sarcasm to Quadi is giving him too much credit for
something beyond his capabilities.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in
news:1rF%K.69589$C8y5.25983@fx07.iad:

> Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>>scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in
>>news:%jD%K.748434$BKL8.355584@fx15.iad:
>>
>>> Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com>
>>> writes:
>>>>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>>>>news:rJC8x4.K69@kithrup.com:
>>>>
>>>>> In article
>>>>> <7b287035-a931-4cfb-9371-a50cfea8220cn@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert
>>>>>>Woodward wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does significant include cities in the USA that support a
>>>>>>> Russian Orthodox church?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on
>>>>>>those who they see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not
>>>>>>the United States, in the case of Putin and Russia.
>>>>>
>>>>> (Hal Heydt)
>>>>> I don't know... The Soviet Union used--occasionaly--to
>>>>> insist that the Czar had no right sell land "owned by the
>>>>> people" referring specifically to Alaska.
>>>>>
>>>>Some of Putin's toadies have made noises about reclaiming
>>>>Alaska, but Putin himself has poo-pooed the idea.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Unlike the twit trump who tried to buy greenland....
>>>
>>So you equate a legitimate purchase (assuming that's even what
>>was
>
> No, I think

There's no evidence to support that.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On 10/6/2022 9:01 AM, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-10-06 08:09, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>> news:7b287035-a931-4cfb-9371-a50cfea8220cn@googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert
>>> Woodward wrote:
>>>
>>>> Does significant include cities in the USA that support a
>>>> Russian Orthodox church?
>>>
>>> Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy.
>>
>> There is consideable evidence that he actually is. He's encouraged by
>> how weak an ineffective the current administration is.
>>
>
> LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!
>
> Tell us all, Terry:
>
> What would a "strong and effective" administration have done?
>
Toadied up to Putin of course, just like the previous administration.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

> 5GyYap52yQ1UGMWD <ehj46PkBWfBAng9C@VW28LtWn6wknpUMV.invalid> writes:
>>"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:51:39 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert Woodward wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > > Does significant include cities in the USA that support a Russian
>>>> > > Orthodox church?
>>>>
>>>> > Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on those who
>>>> > they see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not the United States,
>>>> > in the case of Putin and Russia.
>>>> But then, speaking of the Orthodox Church, popular Orthodox priest,
>>>> the youthful Okhlobystin, gave a speech in Red Square where he
>>>> declares that the countries of the world hostile to Russia, as they
>>>> are ruled by perverts and Satanists, should tremble.
>>>
>>> I've been seeing reports that Orthodox churches in the US are seeing
>>> an uptick in membership from right-wing conservatives - the
>>> patriarchal, conservative, homophobic, transphobic positions of the
>>> church are attractive to the same crowd that likes Trump.
>>>
>>> pt
>>
>>Woah man. I'm just practicing my faith. You need to chill out.
>
> You need to mind your own business.

I am. You should as well. It's not healthy to get worked up with the
trappings of the world that's outside your control.

--
Pointless meanderings in a bleak and lonely world.

On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 10:01:42 AM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Wednesday, 5 October 2022 at 14:43:09 UTC+1, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 4:53:41 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:

> > > Presumably Crimea belongs to whoever lived there before the first military aggression
> > > against Crimea took place.
> > God, the historical ignorance here blows my mind.

> Most of Quadi's contributions on the subject look
> to me like sincere stupidity and not deliberate
> trolling, but that last remark is sarcasm, I think.

While I _was_ perfectly aware that Crimea has a long history, and so
this probably would involve giving it to the Basques, as the closest
relatives of the oldest surviving inhabitants of Europe...

that doesn't mean that I was being (fully) sarcastic. Because I definitely
don't think that "might makes right". So in choosing between
the Crimea's relatively recent occupants, I would indeed choose
the group that was there first on the principle that this would be
the most just action.

That this is based on a principle that doesn't admit of being
fully taken to its logical conclusion... well, things can be like
that sometimes.

John Savard

On Thu, 6 Oct 2022 11:08:53 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
<mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:03:52 PM UTC+1, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:51:39 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>> > On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
>> > > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert Woodward wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Does significant include cities in the USA that support a Russian
>> > > > Orthodox church?
>> >
>> > > Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on those who they
>> > > see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not the United States, in the
>> > > case of Putin and Russia.
>> > But then, speaking of the Orthodox Church, popular Orthodox priest, the
>> > youthful Okhlobystin, gave a speech in Red Square where he declares that
>> > the countries of the world hostile to Russia, as they are ruled by perverts
>> > and Satanists, should tremble.
>> I've been seeing reports that Orthodox churches in the US are seeing an
>> uptick in membership from right-wing conservatives - the patriarchal,
>> conservative, homophobic, transphobic positions of the church are
>> attractive to the same crowd that likes Trump.
>>
>> pt
>The Orthodox churches are interesting because if you look at modern mainstream western accounts of the Great Schism you may find something close to an admission that the Eastern churches were in the right, and the theology and worship of Orthodox churches is much closer to the theology and worship of Eastern churches at the time of the Great Schism than the theology and worship of any current Western church is to anything similarly ancient. It is unfortunate that Orthodox churches have so often been closely linked with unattractive governments. I did a search once on their position on church-state links and found a text (I think from an American and certainly English-speaking source) which suggested that this linkage was not intrinsic to their theology.

"In the right" or not, the first bit ties into other things I have
read on the topic. Some of which were rather negative, but then, they
were published 70-120 years ago.

If the text you found is from an American, it is possible that said
American is letting the American understanding interfere with the
study and understanding of Orthodoxy.

Keep in mind that Roman Catholicism was quite entwined with the State.
Consider the struggle with the Holy Roman Emperors. And the efforts of
France to establish a /national/ church with was, nonetheless, Roman
Catholic. Or the fact (well, this may have varied a bit) that the
Inquisition didn't burn anyone -- the State did it for them at their
direction.

The resulting tendency to side with authoritarian (not to mention
totalitarian) governments, BTW, gives some credence to Marx's claim
that "religion is the opiate of the people".

So one difference is that Roman Catholicism, at least in some places,
has learned to survive without controlling the State. But this is not
its historical preference -- and, to be fair, a fair number of
Protestant denominations have felt the same way. As we are seeing
today as they become more vocal.

I would expect traditionalist Episcopalians to turn to Rome, as its
positions are surely much closer to theirs. But perhaps they were
exposed to too much anti-Rome propaganda when they were young.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

5GyYap52yQ1UGMWD <ehj46PkBWfBAng9C@VW28LtWn6wknpUMV.invalid> wrote
in news:87leps299x.fsf@ueubiyka.lnsz:

> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:51:39 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc
>> wrote:
>>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc
>>> wrote:
>>> > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert
>>> > Woodward wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Does significant include cities in the USA that support a
>>> > > Russian Orthodox church?
>>>
>>> > Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on
>>> > those who they see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not
>>> > the United States, in the case of Putin and Russia.
>>> But then, speaking of the Orthodox Church, popular Orthodox
>>> priest, the youthful Okhlobystin, gave a speech in Red
>>> Square where he declares that the countries of the world
>>> hostile to Russia, as they are ruled by perverts and
>>> Satanists, should tremble.
>>
>> I've been seeing reports that Orthodox churches in the US are
>> seeing an uptick in membership from right-wing
>> conservatives - the patriarchal, conservative, homophobic,
>> transphobic positions of the church are attractive to the same
>> crowd that likes Trump.
>>
>> pt
>
> Woah man. I'm just practicing my faith. You need to chill out.
>
Back in the days of Moonies relentlessly harassing people at
airports (this would be the 80s), and airport security couldn't do
anything about it because "our religion requires us to be
assholes," my father backed a particularly persistent one up
against a stairwell and pushed him down it. Broke his arm. Airport
security showed up right away, and asked him why he did that. He
replied, "My religious beliefs require me to physically assault
anyone who tries to proseletyze me." They thought that was so
hiliarious they hid him in their office when the cops showed up.

So be careful what excuse you use, because it cuts both ways.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Friday, October 7, 2022 at 3:36:37 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> 5GyYap52yQ1UGMWD <ehj46PkB...@VW28LtWn6wknpUMV.invalid> wrote
> in news:87leps2...@ueubiyka.lnsz:
> > "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:51:39 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc
> >> wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc
> >>> wrote:
> >>> > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:02:56 PM UTC-6, Robert
> >>> > Woodward wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > > Does significant include cities in the USA that support a
> >>> > > Russian Orthodox church?
> >>>
> >>> > Probably not. Putin is not _that_ crazy. Bullies pick on
> >>> > those who they see as weaker than themselves. Ukraine, not
> >>> > the United States, in the case of Putin and Russia.
> >>> But then, speaking of the Orthodox Church, popular Orthodox
> >>> priest, the youthful Okhlobystin, gave a speech in Red
> >>> Square where he declares that the countries of the world
> >>> hostile to Russia, as they are ruled by perverts and
> >>> Satanists, should tremble.
> >>
> >> I've been seeing reports that Orthodox churches in the US are
> >> seeing an uptick in membership from right-wing
> >> conservatives - the patriarchal, conservative, homophobic,
> >> transphobic positions of the church are attractive to the same
> >> crowd that likes Trump.
> >>
> >> pt
> >
> > Woah man. I'm just practicing my faith. You need to chill out.
> >
> Back in the days of Moonies relentlessly harassing people at
> airports (this would be the 80s), and airport security couldn't do
> anything about it because "our religion requires us to be
> assholes," my father backed a particularly persistent one up
> against a stairwell and pushed him down it. Broke his arm. Airport
> security showed up right away, and asked him why he did that. He
> replied, "My religious beliefs require me to physically assault
> anyone who tries to proseletyze me." They thought that was so
> hiliarious they hid him in their office when the cops showed up.
>
> So be careful what excuse you use, because it cuts both ways.
> --

When a Krishna (ISKCON) at O'Hare tried to beg from me by pushing one
of their profusely illustrated books into my hands, then asking for a
"donation, " I would toy with them if I had time to kill before my flight.

Me: So, this book is free, right?

Isky: Yes, free. But a donation is requested.

Me: Great! So long! {Kevrob walks away with book...}

Isky: Wait! Wait! Your donation.....

Me: That's not _required_, is it? `Cause that would be selling
the book, and I think you need a vendor's license
for that.

Isky: No, we aren't selling anything.....

Me: Good. Bye!

Before he popped a blood vessel, I gave the volume back.
Airport cops would run them for selling anything. People
would give up a buck to get them to turn off the hard sell.
I didn't have the mass at age 20 I do know, but I would walk
through one of those woo-woo-thralls if need be, should they
block my path.

One blizzarding night, while I waited from a bus from CHI to MKE
a whole crew of robed mendicants opened up their dinners in the
same foyer I was occupying near the bus stop. It was like unto
a gas attack on the Western Front. For this Irish-descended kid
from mid-20th century Long Island, that may have been my first
exposure to curry. I wasn't a fan.

--
Kevin R