Problem solved! Naseer sahib to the rescue. Thank you. :)

I don't recall the source where I had first read this Meer ghazal but this particular she'r had stayed with me. I always had some issue with this particular word. Oh how I wish they would use zer-zabar-pesh in printed Urdu! And yes, I did double check it in Rekhta after posting, especially the Nagari version, and sure enough they had it written with a 1.5 'd' in Hindi too.

Prof RK, I am owning this one and not trying to pass the buck. I am also admitting that once I had a hard time fitting 'jaddii' as 12, I should have realized that perhaps it was a slightly different word and branched out rather than forcing it 'as is' in the meter.

And absolutely, judii --> ju-dii makes better sense here meaning wise too, not just weight wise.

Moral of the story is what you have repeated several times earlier, "do not believe every printed word", especially the ones involving diacritics in Urdu.

While we are at it, a quick note on another she'r I posted. I was unsure how to transliterate 'diiniaat/diiniyat' in Roman either, and decided to go with an 'i'. In any case, it would have the same talaffuz/vazn either way.

All done. Moving on. A new day. :)

________Zoya

Problem solved! Naseer sahib to the rescue. Thank you. :)

I don't recall the source where I had first read this Meer ghazal but this particular she'r had stayed with me. I always had some issue with this particular word. Oh how I wish they would use zer-zabar-pesh in printed Urdu! And yes, I did double check it in Rekhta after posting, especially the Nagari version, and sure enough they had it written with a 1.5 'd' in Hindi too.

Prof RK, I am owning this one and not trying to pass the buck. I am also admitting that once I had a hard time fitting 'jaddii' as 12, I should have realized that perhaps it was a slightly different word and branched out rather than forcing it 'as is' in the meter.

And absolutely, judii --> ju-dii makes better sense here meaning wise too, not just weight wise.

Moral of the story is what you have repeated several times earlier, "do not believe every printed word", especially the ones involving diacritics in Urdu.

While we are at it, a quick note on another she'r I posted. I was unsure how to transliterate 'diiniaat/diinyaat' in Roman either, and decided to go with an 'i'. In any case, it would have the same talaffuz/vazn either way.

All done. Moving on. A new day. :)

________Zoya

On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 2:00:46 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> On Thursday, 20 May 2021 at 04:25:19 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 6:35:07 PM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> > > On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 4:30:50 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > >
> > > > > aur is vaqt mujhe Meer Taqi Meer kaa ek classic she'r yaad aa rahaa hai. Here:
> > > > >
> > > > > apni DeRh iiNT ki jaddi masjid
> > > > > kisi viiraane meN banaaiye gaa
> > > > >
> > > > ***she'r maze-daar hai magar maiN ne ise paRhte hi 'instantly' bhaaNp liyaa k yeh she'r baHr/vazn meN durustii ka mutamanni hai.
> > > > Please double-check and come back with your finding.
> > >
> > > > R.K.***
> > ----------------
> > > Interesting that you mention it. I had actually paused and thought about the baHr of this ghazal before posting and believed I had it all figured out. Here is the baHr/taqtii':
> > >
> > > 2* 1 2 2/ 1 2 1 2/ 2 2
> > > *The first syllable is properly long, but is allowed to be short in this particular meter.
> > >
> > > 2 1 2 2/ 1 2 1 2 / 2 2
> > > ap ni DeRh iiN/T kii ja d-di/mas jid
> > > ki si vii raa/ne meN ba naa/i-ye gaa

> > ***"jaddii" bar vazn 12?
> >
> > "maHv-e-Hairat huuN k Zoyaa aur kyaa dikhlaaye gi"?
> >
> > I can't believe my eyes ----------- "jaddii" bar vazn 12?***
> >
> > ab dekhnaa, ZS, aap ka grade kis raftaar se neeche girtaa hai! :-)
> >
> > R.K.***

> Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab
>
> in dinoN maiN "physics" aur "diinyaat" ko chhoR kar "taqtii3" par "Ghaur" kar rahaa huuN;) mere xayaal meN shi3r kuchh yuuN hai. ummid hai kih jald aap log (ba-shamuul-i-Irfan Abid SaaHib) mushkil vaqt meN mujh se rujuu3 karne lageN ge!:-)
>
> apnii DeRh iiNT kii *judii* masjid
> kisii viiraane meN banaa'iye gaa
>
> Miir
>
> vaise yahaaN taqtii3 karne kii mujhe itnii ziyaadah zaruurat pesh nahiiN aa'ii kyoNkih jin ma3nii meN "DeRh iiNT kii masjid" kaa muHaavarah must3mal hai vahaaN aabaa'-o-ajdaad se ko'ii nisbat nahiiN hai balkih xvud ko duusroN se alag-thalag rakhne aur
> alag raa'e qaa'im karne yaa kaam karne vaGhairah se vaa-bastah hai. lagtaa hai kih is baat kaa 3ilm Rekhtah.org vaaloN ko bhii nahiiN.
>
> "DeRh iiNT kii masjid banaanaa" ke 3ilaavah "DeRh iiNT kii masjid chun_naa" bhii isti3maal meN aata hai.
>
> Naseer

***janaab-e-man, jab ZS sahiba ne Miir ka yeh she'r yahaaN 'post' kiyaa thaa to maiN yak-laKht taaR gayaa tha k lafz "jaddii" Ghalat hai -------- vazn ke liHaaz se bhi aur ma'anii ke liHaaz se bhii. haaN, is ka badal sochne meN mujhe do-teen minute zaruur lage the, go k kisi reference ki zaruurat maHsuus nahiiN hu'ii thii.

aaj sub'H jab aap ka Khat paRhaa to Khayaal aayaa k, ho na ho, kisi kitaab meN saHiiH lafz "judii" likkhaa ho. mujhe apni kitaaboN meN, sirf aek jagah yeh she'r milaa magar, Hasb-e-dastuur, is lafz par zer, zabar, pesh sab na-daarad the ------------- tashdeed ka to, Khair, savaal hi paidaa nahiiN hota (sorry, Zoya Rani). :-)

aur, janaab, jo baateN aap ne lafz "jaddi" ka naa-mauzuuN hone par kahi haiN, voh sab mere zehn meN bhi theeN magar maiN unheN itni jaldi faash karne vaala nahiiN tha. pahle ZS ko zaraa aur dauR-dhuup, zaraa aur meHnat-mushaqqat karvaata, phir kahiiN yeh rumuuz un par aashkaar karta. magar ab to, aap ke tufail, billii thaile se baahar aa g'ii hai aur is baHs ke saare baab baNd kar ga'ii hai! :-)

jaate jaate, mujhe is maHfil ke "maahir-e-nutq-o-navaa" se aek savaal karna hai --- voh yeh k ham urdu vaale apni taHreeroN meN eiraab kyuuN nahiiN Daalte? kyaa yeh maraz ruuz-e-avval se hai yaa k ba'ad meN laaHiq hu'aa hai?

mujhe bataayaa gayaa hai k Arabi vaale eiraab Daalte haiN, jab-k Faarsi vaale nahiiN Daalte. is ki vajah kyaa ho sakti hai? maiN yeh to samajh saktaa huuN k Urdu vaaloN ne Faarsi vaaloN ki taqleed kii hogi magar Faarsi vaaloN ko kyaa suujhi aur kab suujhi k aisa be-jaa raviyya iKhtiyaar kar baiTHe. kripaa kar ke, aap is samassayaa ke baare meN aek alaiHda laRii meN aek dhu'aaN-dhaar mazmuun likkheN aur ham juhalaa ko bataa'eN k aisaa kab hu'aa aur kyuuN hu'aa? is kaar-e-Khair ke liye, aap ki Khidmat-e-'aaliya meN abhii se dhannyavaad Haazir hai!

aap ka hiteshii, Raj Kumar***

On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 7:39:50 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
>
> I don't recall the source where I had first read this Meer ghazal but this particular she'r had stayed with me. I always had some issue with this particular word. Oh, how I wish they would use zer-zabar-pesh in printed Urdu! And yes, I did double check it in Rekhta after posting, especially the Nagari version, and sure enough they had it written with a 1.5 'd' in Hindi too.
>

***By 1.5 'd', I think, you mean a 'daal with tashdeed'. If so, I am prompted to say, "Rekhta vaaloN ki jai"! :-)***
> Prof RK, I am owning this one and not trying to pass the buck. I am also admitting that once I had a hard time fitting 'jaddii' as 12, I should have realized that perhaps it was a slightly different word and branched out rather than forcing it 'as is' in the meter.
>
***ZS, ab bataaiye, aur diyaanat-daari se bataaiye, k aap ke grade ka kyaa kiyaa jaaye? goyaa, ise kahaaN tak giraaya jaaye? :-)***

> And absolutely, judii --> ju-dii makes better sense here meaning-wise too, not just weight-wise.
>
> All done. Moving on. A new day. :)
>
***Not so soon, Ma'am! I wan't to tell you something very interesting ----

voh yeh k agar ham is she'r ke pahle misr'e meN lafz 'jaddii' hi rahne deN aur duusre misr'e meN aek ma'amuuli sa izaafa kar deN to dono misr'e ham-vazn ho sakte haiN, jaise

apni DeRh iiNT ki jaddii masjid
kisi veeraane meN banvaaiye gaa

she'r be-ma'ani hai magar is ke dono misr'e ham-vazn haiN --- par haiN kisi duusri baHr meN.
Please check this out and admire the subtleties of this art!

R.K.***

On Thursday, 20 May 2021 at 23:43:25 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 7:39:50 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> >
> > I don't recall the source where I had first read this Meer ghazal but this particular she'r had stayed with me. I always had some issue with this particular word. Oh, how I wish they would use zer-zabar-pesh in printed Urdu! And yes, I did double check it in Rekhta after posting, especially the Nagari version, and sure enough they had it written with a 1.5 'd' in Hindi too.
> >
>
> ***By 1.5 'd', I think, you mean a 'daal with tashdeed'. If so, I am prompted to say, "Rekhta vaaloN ki jai"! :-)***
> > Prof RK, I am owning this one and not trying to pass the buck. I am also admitting that once I had a hard time fitting 'jaddii' as 12, I should have realized that perhaps it was a slightly different word and branched out rather than forcing it 'as is' in the meter.

> R.K.***

Raj Kumar SaaHib, even I know what a 1.5 "d" is! I am surprised someone with your vast Hindi and Devanagri knowledge has n't cottoned on;) It is half a "da" and a full "da" combination as in जद्दी.

Naseer

On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 4:26:10 PM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> On Thursday, 20 May 2021 at 23:43:25 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 7:39:50 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't recall the source where I had first read this Meer ghazal but this particular she'r had stayed with me. I always had some issue with this particular word. Oh, how I wish they would use zer-zabar-pesh in printed Urdu! And yes, I did double check it in Rekhta after posting, especially the Nagari version, and sure enough they had it written with a 1.5 'd' in Hindi too.
> > >
> >
> > ***By 1.5 'd', I think, you mean a 'daal with tashdeed'. If so, I am prompted to say, "Rekhta vaaloN ki jai"! :-)***

> > > Prof RK, I am owning this one and not trying to pass the buck. I am also admitting that once I had a hard time fitting 'jaddii' as 12, I should have realized that perhaps it was a slightly different word and branched out rather than forcing it 'as is' in the meter.
> > R.K.***
>
> Raj Kumar SaaHib, even I know what a 1.5 "d" is! I am surprised someone with your vast Hindi and Devanagri knowledge has n't cottoned on;) It is half a "da" and a full "da" combination as in जद्दी.
>
> Naseer

***Huzuur, aap Khaaksaar ki kam-maa'igii se vaaqif nahiiN haiN. maiN ne apne daur-e-tadrees meN, Urdu 12 baras pRhii thi, Angrezi 9 baras, Punjabi ba-Haruuf Gur-mukhii 4 baras, Faarsi 2 baras aur Hindi ba-Huruuf Devanaagari 0 baras!
goyaa, jo "maaRii-moTii" Hindi mujhe aati hai, voh maHz sunii-sunaa'ii hai. aur Devanagaari ke jo akshar mere palle paRte haiN, maHz ishtihaaraat ki ba-daulat yaa apni bahnoN ke Khutuut ki ba-daulat. agar mujhe lafz "jaddi" Devanaagari meN likhna paRay to mujhe kisi bahn-bhaa'ii ki madad leni paRe gi!

To make matter clearer, my education in written Hindi is closely equivalent to my education in ilm-e-baHr-o-vazn. However, while in the latter I can sense the finest of subtleties, in the former I am totally clean.

In any case, for better or for worse, we all have to play our game with the cards we have in hand.

R.K.***

On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 5:43:25 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:

> ***janaab-e-man, jab ZS sahiba ne Miir ka yeh she'r yahaaN 'post' kiyaa thaa to maiN yak-laKht taaR gayaa tha k lafz "jaddii" Ghalat hai -------- vazn ke liHaaz se bhi aur ma'anii ke liHaaz se bhii. haaN, is ka badal sochne meN mujhe do-teen minute zaruur lage the, go k kisi reference ki zaruurat maHsuus nahiiN hu'ii thii.

Prof RK,

Now that I have had a day to ponder over this, I have a comment and a question. I believe the main reason it didn't even occur to me that the word under discussion could be 'judii' is because I had never actually read this word until now. You know I have explored my fair share of Urdu poetry, classic as well as contemporary, but I have never come across 'judii'.
'judaa' and 'judaaii' of course, but never 'judii'.

Now the follow up question: Is 'judii' fairly common in Urdu poetry? Have you seen this usage before, by 'Meer' or any later poets? Of course, if we decide to do some research, we can probably dig up some obscure examples, I am not interested in those. What I am simply asking is, can you think of any other couplet, off the top of your head, that uses this word? Very curious.

> > I don't recall the source where I had first read this Meer ghazal but this particular she'r had stayed with me. I always had some issue with this particular word. Oh, how I wish they would use zer-zabar-pesh in printed Urdu! And yes, I did double check it in Rekhta after posting, especially the Nagari version, and sure enough they had it written with a 1.5 'd' in Hindi too.
> >
>
> ***By 1.5 'd', I think, you mean a 'daal with tashdeed'. If so, I am prompted to say, "Rekhta vaaloN ki jai"! :-)***

Yes, I meant exactly that. In Hindi/Devanagari, there is no maatra equivalent to tashdeed, so such words are written with half 'd' combined with a full 'd'. Interestingly, in Gurmukhi we have an equivalent maatra!

> ***ZS, ab bataaiye, aur diyaanat-daari se bataaiye, k aap ke grade ka kyaa kiyaa jaaye? goyaa, ise kahaaN tak giraaya jaaye? :-)***

No deduction, Prof RK. aaKhir maiN aap kii 'favorite' hii nahiiN, aaj kal 'iklautii' shishya bhii huuN. Your one and only 'star' pupil. :-)

> ***Not so soon, Ma'am! I wan't to tell you something very interesting ----
>
> voh yeh k agar ham is she'r ke pahle misr'e meN lafz 'jaddii' hi rahne deN aur duusre misr'e meN aek ma'amuuli sa izaafa kar deN to dono misr'e ham-vazn ho sakte haiN, jaise
>
> apni DeRh iiNT ki jaddii masjid
> kisi veeraane meN banvaaiye gaa
>
> she'r be-ma'ani hai magar is ke dono misr'e ham-vazn haiN --- par haiN kisi duusri baHr meN.
> Please check this out and admire the subtleties of this art!

baHr to abhii dekhtii huuN RK sahib, but you know what, I kind of like this 'jaddiii' now!
The idea of having your own 'Khaandaani' private prayer room, away from the distracting masses really appeals to me at some level. Raani/maharaani kii to aisii hii ibaatad gaah hoti hogi, nahiiN? aur voh use Khud thoRe banaatii hoN gii, 'banvaatii' hoN gii! I really like your spin on the original. 'jaddii' stays, forget 'judii'. :-))

> R.K.***

vohii, jise aap ne 'mallika' kaa Khitaab diyaa thaa,

_______Zoya

On Friday, 21 May 2021 at 02:06:37 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 4:26:10 PM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> > On Thursday, 20 May 2021 at 23:43:25 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > > On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 7:39:50 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I don't recall the source where I had first read this Meer ghazal but this particular she'r had stayed with me. I always had some issue with this particular word. Oh, how I wish they would use zer-zabar-pesh in printed Urdu! And yes, I did double check it in Rekhta after posting, especially the Nagari version, and sure enough they had it written with a 1.5 'd' in Hindi too.
> > > >
> > >
> > > ***By 1.5 'd', I think, you mean a 'daal with tashdeed'. If so, I am prompted to say, "Rekhta vaaloN ki jai"! :-)***
>
> > > > Prof RK, I am owning this one and not trying to pass the buck. I am also admitting that once I had a hard time fitting 'jaddii' as 12, I should have realized that perhaps it was a slightly different word and branched out rather than forcing it 'as is' in the meter.
> > > R.K.***
> >
> > Raj Kumar SaaHib, even I know what a 1.5 "d" is! I am surprised someone with your vast Hindi and Devanagri knowledge has n't cottoned on;) It is half a "da" and a full "da" combination as in जद्दी.
> >
> > Naseer
> ***Huzuur, aap Khaaksaar ki kam-maa'igii se vaaqif nahiiN haiN. maiN ne apne daur-e-tadrees meN, Urdu 12 baras pRhii thi, Angrezi 9 baras, Punjabi ba-Haruuf Gur-mukhii 4 baras, Faarsi 2 baras aur Hindi ba-Huruuf Devanaagari 0 baras!
> goyaa, jo "maaRii-moTii" Hindi mujhe aati hai, voh maHz sunii-sunaa'ii hai. aur Devanagaari ke jo akshar mere palle paRte haiN, maHz ishtihaaraat ki ba-daulat yaa apni bahnoN ke Khutuut ki ba-daulat. agar mujhe lafz "jaddi" Devanaagari meN likhna paRay to mujhe kisi bahn-bhaa'ii ki madad leni paRe gi!
>
> To make matter clearer, my education in written Hindi is closely equivalent to my education in ilm-e-baHr-o-vazn. However, while in the latter I can sense the finest of subtleties, in the former I am totally clean.
>
> In any case, for better or for worse, we all have to play our game with the cards we have in hand.
>
> R.K.***

You are of course fully aware that my comment was meant in jest, Raj Kumar SaaHib.

Now, please allow me to show you my cards so that we can deduce who has the upper/better hand!:-)

Urdu - 6 years
Farsi - <1 year (and "skived"a lot of it!)
English - 4 years
Hindi - 0 years (knowledge of the Devanagri is "maaRii-moTii)
Punjabi- 0 years (Shahmukhi or Gurmukhi- Knowledge for the latter - "maaRii-moTii)
3ilm-i-3aruuz - 0 years (knowledge- "sifr baTaa sifr". I know, mathematicians would say...."but this is undefined"!)

Total = <11

Your total is 27!:-) aap kaamil Hakiim haiN aur meraa Hisaab niim-Hakiim ko bhii nahiiN chhuutaa!;) shukr hai meraa majmu3ah saaRhe terah nahiiN banaa varnah aap ko ma3luum hii hai kih "niim Hakiim xatar-i-jaan" hotaa hai aur aap kii jaan ham sab ke liye jaan se bhii 3aziiz-tar hai!:-)

Naseer

Being realistic.

aaj kaa she'r:

maiN tujhe bhuul gayii, yeh bhi nahiiN hai lekin
maiN tujhe yaad bhi har vaqt nahiiN kar saktii

On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 6:26:51 PM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 5:43:25 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
>
> > ***janaab-e-man, jab ZS sahiba ne Miir ka yeh she'r yahaaN 'post' kiyaa thaa to maiN yak-laKht taaR gayaa tha k lafz "jaddii" Ghalat hai -------- vazn ke liHaaz se bhi aur ma'anii ke liHaaz se bhii. haaN, is ka badal sochne meN mujhe do-teen minute zaruur lage the, go k kisi reference ki zaruurat maHsuus nahiiN hu'ii thii.
> Prof RK,
>
> Now that I have had a day to ponder over this, I have a comment and a question. I believe the main reason it didn't even occur to me that the word under discussion could be 'judii' is because I had never actually read this word until now. You know I have explored my fair share of Urdu poetry, classic as well as contemporary, but I have never come across 'judii'.
> 'judaa' and 'judaaii' of course, but never 'judii'.
*** Your comment doesn't surprise me at all, ZS, so let's go over to your question(s).***

> Now the follow up question: Is 'judii' fairly common in Urdu poetry?

***This word is not at all common in Urdu poetry but may not be that rare in Urdu prose (such as in the writings of Munshi Prem Chand ). However, while in Delhi, I heard this word many a time spoken colloquially by people from UP or Bihar.

Just as we say, "yeh alag baat hai", they would say, "yeh baat judii hai".

An interesting scenario I visualize would be when a sweetmeat seller tries to pack 'gulaab-jaamun', 'ras-gullas' and 'barfii' in the same box, the customer would say, "aise nahiiN, bhai saab, aap 'barfii' ko judii pack kareN"..***

>Have you seen this usage before, by 'Meer' or any later poets? Of course, if we decide to do some research, we can probably dig up some obscure examples, I am not interested in those. What I am simply asking is, can you think of any other couplet, off the top of your head, that uses this word? Very curious.

***Off the top of my head, not many --- but one gem does pop up:

tuu sab se alag, sab se judii, sab se anokhii
lagtii hai mujhe Qais ke she'roN ki taraH tuu ;-) ***

> >
> > voh yeh k agar ham is she'r ke pahle misr'e meN lafz 'jaddii' hi rahne deN aur duusre misr'e meN aek ma'amuuli sa izaafa kar deN to dono misr'e ham-vazn ho sakte haiN, jaise
> >
> > apni DeRh iiNT ki jaddii masjid
> > kisi veeraane meN banvaaiye gaa
> >
> > she'r be-ma'ani hai magar is ke dono misr'e ham-vazn haiN --- par haiN kisi duusri baHr meN.
> > Please check this out and admire the subtleties of this art!

> baHr to abhii dekhtii huuN RK sahib, but you know what, I kind of like this 'jaddiii' now!
> The idea of having your own 'Khaandaani' private prayer room, away from the distracting masses really appeals to me at some level. Raani/maharaani kii to aisii hii ibaatad gaah hoti hogi, nahiiN? aur voh use Khud thoRe banaatii hoN gii, 'banvaatii' hoN gii! I really like your spin on the original. 'jaddii' stays, forget 'judii'. :-))

***I am glad you liked my spin on the original but you still have to examine the baHr of this new she'r and compare it with the previous one ---- you'll see how infinitesimally close they are, yet finitely different!

R.K.***

On Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 6:58:58 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:

> > Now the follow up question: Is 'judii' fairly common in Urdu poetry?

> ***This word is not at all common in Urdu poetry but may not be that rare in Urdu prose (such as in the writings of Munshi Prem Chand ). However, while in Delhi, I heard this word many a time spoken colloquially by people from UP or Bihar.
>
> Just as we say, "yeh alag baat hai", they would say, "yeh baat judii hai"..
>
> An interesting scenario I visualize would be when a sweetmeat seller tries to pack 'gulaab-jaamun', 'ras-gullas' and 'barfii' in the same box, the customer would say, "aise nahiiN, bhai saab, aap 'barfii' ko judii pack kareN".***

Thank you so much, Prof RK. The word 'judii' did not sound totally foreign to me, just unfamiliar. You have given excellent examples, now it makes good sense.

> >Have you seen this usage before, by 'Meer' or any later poets? Of course, if we decide to do some research, we can probably dig up some obscure examples, I am not interested in those. What I am simply asking is, can you think of any other couplet, off the top of your head, that uses this word? Very curious.
> ***Off the top of my head, not many --- but one gem does pop up:
>
> tuu sab se alag, sab se judii, sab se anokhii
> lagtii hai mujhe Qais ke she'roN ki taraH tuu ;-) ***

Absolutely brilliant! A real gem. ab aap yeh bataaiye k yeh 'iklautaa' sh'er hai yaa phir kisi ghazal meN shaamil hai? agar ghazal hai to phir guzaarish hai k duusre asha'ar bhi sunaa diijiye, agar nahiiN hai to phir farmaaish hai k ghazal puuri kar ke sunaa diijiye. kyaa dilkash zamiin hai!

> > > voh yeh k agar ham is she'r ke pahle misr'e meN lafz 'jaddii' hi rahne deN aur duusre misr'e meN aek ma'amuuli sa izaafa kar deN to dono misr'e ham-vazn ho sakte haiN, jaise

> > > apni DeRh iiNT ki jaddii masjid
> > > kisi veeraane meN banvaaiye gaa

> > > she'r be-ma'ani hai magar is ke dono misr'e ham-vazn haiN --- par haiN kisi duusri baHr meN.
> > > Please check this out and admire the subtleties of this art!

> ***I am glad you liked my spin on the original but you still have to examine the baHr of this new she'r and compare it with the previous one ---- you'll see how infinitesimally close they are, yet finitely different!

> R.K.***

You are absolutely right Prof RK, this one subtle change has put the sh'er in a completely different BaHr. I am listing below both the original and the modified versions of the she'r in the respective baHrs.
--------------------
Original:
baHr: "Khafiif" musaddas maKhbuun mahzuuf maqtuu

2* 1 2 2 / 1 2 1 2 / 2 2
ap ni DeRh iiN/T kii ju dii/mas jid
ki sii vii raa/ne meN ba naa/iye gaa
--------------------
Modified:
baHr: "ramal" musaddas maKhbuun mahzuuf maqtuu

2* 1 2 2 / 1 1 2 2 / 2 2
ap ni DeRh iiN/T ki jad dii/mas jid
ki si vii raa/ne meN ban vaa/iye gaa

*Interestingly, both of these baHrs allow the freedom for the first syllable to be either long or short.

Prof RK, Thanks for another excellent lesson. Priceless.

______Zoya

aaj kaa she'r:

tuu sab se alag, sab se judii, sab se anokhii
lagtii hai mujhe Qais ke she'roN ki taraH tuu :-))

RK Qais

On Friday, 21 May 2021 at 02:26:51 UTC+1, Zoya wrote:
> On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 5:43:25 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
>
> >
>
> Now that I have had a day to ponder over this, I have a comment and a question. I believe the main reason it didn't even occur to me that the word under discussion could be 'judii' is because I had never actually read this word until now. You know I have explored my fair share of Urdu poetry, classic as well as contemporary, but I have never come across 'judii'.
> 'judaa' and 'judaaii' of course, but never 'judii'.
>
>
>

I have heard this sher as ‘apni deRh eent kii juRi (assembled) masjid, meaning the masjid assembled from a brick and a half.

GhosnA

On Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 7:08:00 PM UTC-5, GA wrote:

> I have heard this sher as ‘apni deRh eent kii juRi (assembled) masjid, meaning the masjid assembled from a brick and a half.
>
> GhosnA

HI, Welcome to Alup. And a special welcome to this thread.

Another interesting alternative. I am game, and may be talked into buying 'juRii'. It sounds a lot more familiar than 'judii', and a perfect fit in the original baHr, unlike 'jaddii'. The meaning also makes reasonable sense in the context of this sh'er.

Let us see wait and see what Prof RK has to say about this. His source has the printed word as 'jadii'. For it to be 'jaRii', we have two issues, a missing 'pesh' as well as a 'daal' in place of 'Re'. 'jaRii'?? Possible, yes. Likely, not sure.

Either way, thanks for joining the discussion. Hope you will continue to participate in the group. The more, the merrier! :)

Regards,

_____Zoya

> I have heard this sher as ‘apni deRh eent kii juRi (assembled) masjid, meaning the masjid assembled from a brick and a half.
>
> GhosnA

Hello, Welcome to Alup. And a special welcome to this thread.

Another interesting alternative. I am game, and may be talked into buying 'juRii'. It sounds a lot more familiar than 'judii', and a perfect fit in the original baHr, unlike 'jaddii'. The meaning also makes reasonable sense in the context of this sh'er.

Let us see wait and see what Prof RK has to say about this. His source has the printed word as 'jadii'. For it to be 'jaRii', we have two issues, a missing 'pesh' as well as a 'daal' in place of 'Re'. 'jaRii'?? Possible, yes. Likely, not sure.

Either way, thanks for joining the discussion. Hope you will continue to participate in the group. The more, the merrier! :)

Regards,

_____Zoya

> I have heard this sher as ‘apni deRh eent kii juRi (assembled) masjid, meaning the masjid assembled from a brick and a half.
>
> GhosnA

Hello, Welcome to Alup. And a special welcome to this thread.

Another interesting alternative. I am game, and may be talked into buying 'juRii'. It sounds a lot more familiar than 'judii', and a perfect fit in the original baHr, unlike 'jaddii'. The meaning also makes reasonable sense in the context of this sh'er.

Let us see wait and see what Prof RK has to say about this. His source has the printed word as 'jadii'. For it to be 'juRii', we have two issues, a missing 'pesh' as well as a 'daal' in place of 'Re'. 'juRii'?? Possible, yes. Likely, not sure.

Either way, thanks for joining the discussion. Hope you will continue to participate in the group. The more, the merrier! :)

Regards,

_____Zoya

On Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 5:08:00 PM UTC-7, GA wrote:
> On Friday, 21 May 2021 at 02:26:51 UTC+1, Zoya wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 5:43:25 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > Now that I have had a day to ponder over this, I have a comment and a question. I believe the main reason it didn't even occur to me that the word under discussion could be 'judii' is because I had never actually read this word until now. You know I have explored my fair share of Urdu poetry, classic as well as contemporary, but I have never come across 'judii'.
> > 'judaa' and 'judaaii' of course, but never 'judii'.
> >
> >
> >
> I have heard this sher as ‘apni deRh eent kii juRi (assembled) masjid, meaning the masjid assembled from a brick and a half.
>
> GhosnA

***All the PRINTED sources we have examined --- ReKhta, Naseer sahib's and mine --- spell this word with 'daal'; none spells it with "Re". So, I don't see any room for the word "juRii" here.

Conclusion: is lafz ka "juRii" hona imkaan ku Huduud se baahar hai.

R.K.***

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 2:12:37 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> On Friday, 21 May 2021 at 02:06:37 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 4:26:10 PM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> > > On Thursday, 20 May 2021 at 23:43:25 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 7:39:50 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't recall the source where I had first read this Meer ghazal but this particular she'r had stayed with me. I always had some issue with this particular word. Oh, how I wish they would use zer-zabar-pesh in printed Urdu! And yes, I did double check it in Rekhta after posting, especially the Nagari version, and sure enough they had it written with a 1.5 'd' in Hindi too.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ***By 1.5 'd', I think, you mean a 'daal with tashdeed'. If so, I am prompted to say, "Rekhta vaaloN ki jai"! :-)***
> >
> > > > > Prof RK, I am owning this one and not trying to pass the buck. I am also admitting that once I had a hard time fitting 'jaddii' as 12, I should have realized that perhaps it was a slightly different word and branched out rather than forcing it 'as is' in the meter.
> > > > R.K.***
> > >
> > > Raj Kumar SaaHib, even I know what a 1.5 "d" is! I am surprised someone with your vast Hindi and Devanagri knowledge has n't cottoned on;) It is half a "da" and a full "da" combination as in जद्दी.
> > >
> > > Naseer
> > ***Huzuur, aap Khaaksaar ki kam-maa'igii se vaaqif nahiiN haiN. maiN ne apne daur-e-tadrees meN, Urdu 12 baras pRhii thi, Angrezi 9 baras, Punjabi ba-Haruuf Gur-mukhii 4 baras, Faarsi 2 baras aur Hindi ba-Huruuf Devanaagari 0 baras!
> > goyaa, jo "maaRii-moTii" Hindi mujhe aati hai, voh maHz sunii-sunaa'ii hai. aur Devanagaari ke jo akshar mere palle paRte haiN, maHz ishtihaaraat ki ba-daulat yaa apni bahnoN ke Khutuut ki ba-daulat. agar mujhe lafz "jaddi" Devanaagari meN likhna paRay to mujhe kisi bahn-bhaa'ii ki madad leni paRe gi!
> >
> > To make matter clearer, my education in written Hindi is closely equivalent to my education in ilm-e-baHr-o-vazn. However, while in the latter I can sense the finest of subtleties, in the former I am totally clean.
> >
> > In any case, for better or for worse, we all have to play our game with the cards we have in hand.
> >
> > R.K.***
> You are of course fully aware that my comment was meant in jest, Raj Kumar SaaHib.
>
> Now, please allow me to show you my cards so that we can deduce who has the upper/better hand!:-)
>
> Urdu - 6 years
> Farsi - <1 year (and "skived"a lot of it!)
> English - 4 years
> Hindi - 0 years (knowledge of the Devanagri is "maaRii-moTii)
> Punjabi- 0 years (Shahmukhi or Gurmukhi- Knowledge for the latter - "maaRii-moTii)
> 3ilm-i-3aruuz - 0 years (knowledge- "sifr baTaa sifr". I know, mathematicians would say...."but this is undefined"!)
>
> Total = <11
>
> Your total is 27!:-) aap kaamil Hakiim haiN aur meraa Hisaab niim-Hakiim ko bhii nahiiN chhuutaa!;) shukr hai meraa majmu3ah saaRhe terah nahiiN banaa varnah aap ko ma3luum hii hai kih "niim Hakiim xatar-i-jaan" hotaa hai aur aap kii jaan ham sab ke liye jaan se bhii 3aziiz-tar hai!:-)
>
> Naseer

***itni ma'amuulii si ta'aliim aur aisi Ghair-ma'amuulii 'ilmiiyat?
There must be a God ----- somewhere! :-)

R.K.***

This one is for my 'lately-oft-absent study buddy' Nagesh sahib.

aaj ka she'r:

isi kuuche meN kaii us ke shanaasaa bhi to haiN
voh kisii aur se milne ke bahaane aaye! :-)

Nagesh sahib, aap ko 'welcome back' kehne vaaloN kii 'qataar' meN avval number to mera hai. Oh, how I have missed you, my friend.

aap ko pataa nahiiN aap ke piiChhe Guru jii RK sahib mujhe DaaNTne bhi lage haiN! kabhi kabhi to ghair-shadiid qism ka 'ghussa' bhi dikhaate haiN, aur 'ain ghain' par to aaj kal zara zyaada hii dhyaan dete haiN. Had to yeh hai k meraa 'grade' kam karne tak kii dhamki de chuke haiN! Can you believe this? :)

You better cut down on golfing, I really need your presence here! :-))

_______Zoya

Thanks, Zoya Sahiba! I find it hard to come here and spend just a few minutes. Between trips to the dictionary, efforts not to say anything others may consider inappropriate, and attempts to participate in threads I find interesting, I find that a visit to ALUP require a lot of time and effort. My thanks to those who provide both these commodities in abundance. And my apologies:

yuN zindagi guzaar rahaa huuN tere baghair
jaise koi gunaah kiye jaa rahaa huN maiN
Jigar Moraadabaadi

Nagesh

On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 8:16:24 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> This one is for my 'lately-oft-absent study buddy' Nagesh sahib.
>
> aaj ka she'r:
>
> isi kuuche meN kaii us ke shanaasaa bhi to haiN
> voh kisii aur se milne ke bahaane aaye! :-)
>
> Nagesh sahib, aap ko 'welcome back' kehne vaaloN kii 'qataar' meN avval number to mera hai. Oh, how I have missed you, my friend.
>
> aap ko pataa nahiiN aap ke piiChhe Guru jii RK sahib mujhe DaaNTne bhi lage haiN! kabhi kabhi to ghair-shadiid qism ka 'ghussa' bhi dikhaate haiN, aur 'ain ghain' par to aaj kal zara zyaada hii dhyaan dete haiN. Had to yeh hai k meraa 'grade' kam karne tak kii dhamki de chuke haiN! Can you believe this? :)
>
> You better cut down on golfing, I really need your presence here! :-))
>
> _______Zoya

On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 9:15:09 AM UTC-7, Nagesh wrote:
>
> yuN zindagi guzaar rahaa huuN tere baghair
> jaise koi gunaah kiye jaa rahaa huN maiN
> Jigar Moraadabaadi
>
> Nagesh

***NS, lafz "tere" se misr'a Khaarij-az-baHr ho rahaa hai. is ka kuchh upaaye keejiye!

ZS, aap apne "Study Buddy" ko yeh kaam Khud karne deejiye ga. agar aap ne un ki naagaah madad karne ki koshish kii to aap ke apne grade ki Khair nahiiN! :-)

R.K.***

Raj Kumar Sahib:

The original shows "tire" in Urdu script and "were" in Devnagri. I guess I picked the wrong one to transliterate.

If I did not make errors in almost every post, ALUP would not be ALUP :-)

Nagesh
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 9:30:16 AM UTC-7, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 9:15:09 AM UTC-7, Nagesh wrote:
> >
> > yuN zindagi guzaar rahaa huuN tere baghair
> > jaise koi gunaah kiye jaa rahaa huN maiN
> > Jigar Moraadabaadi
> >
> > Nagesh
> ***NS, lafz "tere" se misr'a Khaarij-az-baHr ho rahaa hai. is ka kuchh upaaye keejiye!
>
> ZS, aap apne "Study Buddy" ko yeh kaam Khud karne deejiye ga. agar aap ne un ki naagaah madad karne ki koshish kii to aap ke apne grade ki Khair nahiiN! :-)
>
> R.K.***

On Tuesday, 25 May 2021 at 18:24:57 UTC+1, Nagesh wrote:
> Raj Kumar Sahib:
>
> The original shows "tire" in Urdu script and "were" in Devnagri. I guess I picked the wrong one to transliterate.
>
> If I did not make errors in almost every post, ALUP would not be ALUP :-)
>

Join the club, Nagesh SaaHib!:-) agar Raj Kumar aur Afzal SaaHibaan jaise giraamii-qadr daanishvaroN ko ham GhalatiyoN kii nishaan-dihii kaa mauqa3 faraa-ham nah karte to inheN ustaad-i-muHtaram kaa darjah kahaaN se miltaa?:-)

Naseer

On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 10:24:57 AM UTC-7, Nagesh wrote:
> Raj Kumar Sahib:
>
> The original shows "tire" in Urdu script and "tere" in Devnagri. I guess I picked the wrong one to transliterate.
>
> If I did not make errors in almost every post, ALUP would not be ALUP :-)

***NS, maiN aap ki is Ghalati par Khaamosh rah sakta tha magar socha k aap to ilm-e-aruuz ke vidyaarthii haiN aur baat baat par Ms. Pritchett ka Havaala dete haiN. is liye, aap se aisi Ghalati ki tavaqq'o rakhna bhi Ghalati hoga.

B/W, aek baar maiN ne aap k taqtii' ka aek short-cut bataaya tha, shaayad aap ko yaad ho. us short-cut ke mutaabiq, zer-e-baiHs lafz ko duusre misr'e ke lafz "rahaa" ke ham-vazn hona chaahiye --- ya'ani-k, bar-vazn 12. Hence "tire", and not "tere". QED

R.K.***

RK Sahib: You have a rare gift for intuitively "hearing" the meter. I wish I had that ability. Perhaps I will develop it in time. For now, if I do not spend a lot of time writing out the syllables, I make errors.

Prof Pritchett's handbook is a useful crutch for people in my position. Your specific comments are far more useful. Thanks, again.

Regards,

Nagesh
On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 4:37:45 PM UTC-7, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 10:24:57 AM UTC-7, Nagesh wrote:
> > Raj Kumar Sahib:
> >
> > The original shows "tire" in Urdu script and "tere" in Devnagri. I guess I picked the wrong one to transliterate.
> >
> > If I did not make errors in almost every post, ALUP would not be ALUP :-)
> ***NS, maiN aap ki is Ghalati par Khaamosh rah sakta tha magar socha k aap to ilm-e-aruuz ke vidyaarthii haiN aur baat baat par Ms. Pritchett ka Havaala dete haiN. is liye, aap se aisi Ghalati ki tavaqq'o rakhna bhi Ghalati hoga.
>
> B/W, aek baar maiN ne aap k taqtii' ka aek short-cut bataaya tha, shaayad aap ko yaad ho. us short-cut ke mutaabiq, zer-e-baiHs lafz ko duusre misr'e ke lafz "rahaa" ke ham-vazn hona chaahiye --- ya'ani-k, bar-vazn 12. Hence "tire", and not "tere". QED
>
> R.K.***