On Tuesday, 27 April 2021 at 03:47:46 UTC+1, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:

> Yes, after posting the sher I vaguely remembered reading it on ALUP and, after searching for it and finding it, I decided to delete my post. And, yes, without knowing the context of the sher it can be interpreted as an aashiq complaining to his mehbooba ... also, doesn't the reader have the right/choice to interpret the sher in any which way he/she wants :)

> Dinesh

Dinesh SaaHib, aadaab.

I am not sure I would be able to provide the response in the affirmative for your question, "...also, doesn't the reader have the right/choice to interpret the sher in any which way he/she wants(?):)"

Here is just one example to illustrate my point.

jins-i-naa-yaab-i-muHabbat ko phir arzaaN kar de
Hind ke dair-nashiinoN ko musalmaaN kar de

Iqbal (Shikvah)

The late Khushwant Singh, provides this interpretation.

Make abundant that rare commodity love, so that all may buy and sell.
Convert to Islam India's millions who still in temples dwell.

Would you go along with this interpretation?

Naseer

On Tuesday, 27 April 2021 at 05:48:32 UTC+1, Naseer wrote:
> On Tuesday, 27 April 2021 at 03:47:46 UTC+1, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
>
> > Yes, after posting the sher I vaguely remembered reading it on ALUP and, after searching for it and finding it, I decided to delete my post. And, yes, without knowing the context of the sher it can be interpreted as an aashiq complaining to his mehbooba ... also, doesn't the reader have the right/choice to interpret the sher in any which way he/she wants :)
> > Dinesh
>
> Dinesh SaaHib, aadaab.
>
> I am not sure I would be able to provide the response in the affirmative for your question, "...also, doesn't the reader have the right/choice to interpret the sher in any which way he/she wants(?):)"
>
> Here is just one example to illustrate my point.
>
> jins-i-naa-yaab-i-muHabbat ko phir arzaaN kar de
> Hind ke dair-nashiinoN ko musalmaaN kar de
>
> Iqbal (Shikvah)
>
> The late Khushwant Singh, provides this interpretation.
>
> Make abundant that rare commodity love, so that all may buy and sell.
> Convert to Islam India's millions who still in temples dwell.
>
> Would you go along with this interpretation?
>
> Naseer

Further to my last Dinesh SaaHib, are you the same "Dinesh" who took part in the thread entitled "abhi to main jawaa hoon: meanings please..." in May 2020?

Naseer

On Monday, April 26, 2021 at 11:36:51 PM UTC-6, Naseer wrote:

<snip>

> >
> > Naseer
> Further to my last Dinesh SaaHib, are you the same "Dinesh" who took part in the thread entitled "abhi to main jawaa hoon: meanings please..." in May 2020?
>
> Naseer

No, Naseer sahib. I am revisiting ALUP after many ... years.

Dinesh

On Monday, April 26, 2021 at 10:48:32 PM UTC-6, Naseer wrote:
> On Tuesday, 27 April 2021 at 03:47:46 UTC+1, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
>
> > Yes, after posting the sher I vaguely remembered reading it on ALUP and, after searching for it and finding it, I decided to delete my post. And, yes, without knowing the context of the sher it can be interpreted as an aashiq complaining to his mehbooba ... also, doesn't the reader have the right/choice to interpret the sher in any which way he/she wants :)
> > Dinesh
>
> Dinesh SaaHib, aadaab.
>
> I am not sure I would be able to provide the response in the affirmative for your question, "...also, doesn't the reader have the right/choice to interpret the sher in any which way he/she wants(?):)"
>
> Here is just one example to illustrate my point.
>
> jins-i-naa-yaab-i-muHabbat ko phir arzaaN kar de
> Hind ke dair-nashiinoN ko musalmaaN kar de
>
> Iqbal (Shikvah)
>
> The late Khushwant Singh, provides this interpretation.
>
> Make abundant that rare commodity love, so that all may buy and sell.
> Convert to Islam India's millions who still in temples dwell.
>
> Would you go along with this interpretation?
>
> Naseer

First off, let me admit that my knowledge of Urdu language and its literature is extremely ... miniscule. So, please keep this in mind while reading and responding to the rest of this post :)

Growing up in (Indian) Hyderabad, I developed a love for Urdu (poetry), and whenever possible I have tried to read Urdu poetry online in roman script. It is one of my dream post-retirement projects to learn to read Urdu and then read the classics. kuchh aaTh-dus saal kii baat hai :)

Having said that, let me also admit that I have NOT read Iqbal's shikvah or javaab-e shikvah, just the occasional quotes from learned people like yourself. Now, coming to the sher that you have quoted, I can easily see how a novice like myself could mis-interpret the religion Vs the concept of Islam when Iqbal syas "musalmaaN kar de". Although, I agree someone like Khushwant Singh should know better. I Googled to better understand the couplet, and found this below.

Bring, O Lord, within our grasp that most rare love for which we pray;
To India’s temple‐squatters teach the truth of the Islamic way.

In one of your earlier articles on ALUP, you educate us saying dair is used in a more generic way as "place of worship", not addressing "temples/hindus" but, in reality referring to Muslims in India. But ... isn't the word "dair" typically used for (hindu) temples. Ex : dair-O-haram to specifically differentiate a temple from a mosque, chiraag-e-dair, the (oil) lamp typically lit in (hindu) temples? While researching this issue, I ran into this sher (by none other than Miir) which further tells me dair is usually used to indicate a temple?

miir ke diin-O-mazhab kO ab puuchhte kyaa ho un ne tO
qashqa khIINchaa dair meiN baiThaa kab kaa tark islaam kiyaa

Dinesh

On Tuesday, 27 April 2021 at 18:13:51 UTC+1, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
> On Monday, April 26, 2021 at 11:36:51 PM UTC-6, Naseer wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > >
> > > Naseer
> > Further to my last Dinesh SaaHib, are you the same "Dinesh" who took part in the thread entitled "abhi to main jawaa hoon: meanings please..." in May 2020?
> >
> > Naseer
> No, Naseer sahib. I am revisiting ALUP after many ... years.
>
> Dinesh

Dinesh SaaHib, aadaab.

In this case, please allow me to make a confession. When I welcomed you upon your return to ALUP, I had the other Dinesh SaaHib in mind. So, I shall do the honour once again. Welcome back to ALUP!

Naseer

On Tuesday, 27 April 2021 at 18:57:36 UTC+1, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
Dinesh SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai.

> First off, let me admit that my knowledge of Urdu language and its literature is extremely ... miniscule. So, please keep this in mind while reading and responding to the rest of this post :)
>
> Growing up in (Indian) Hyderabad, I developed a love for Urdu (poetry), and whenever possible I have tried to read Urdu poetry online in roman script. It is one of my dream post-retirement projects to learn to read Urdu and then read the classics. kuchh aaTh-dus saal kii baat hai :)

Your love for Urdu poetry and your deep desire to learn the Urdu script is truly admirable. Would you believe that Kaifi Azami's daughter Shabana Azami can not read Urdu script at all!? My advice to you you is to invest in a children's Qaa3idah and before you know it, you will be reading "alif anaar" and "be-bakrii"!:-)

> Having said that, let me also admit that I have NOT read Iqbal's shikvah or javaab-e shikvah, just the occasional quotes from learned people like yourself. Now, coming to the sher that you have quoted, I can easily see how a novice like myself could mis-interpret the religion Vs the concept of Islam when Iqbal says "musalmaaN kar de". Although, I agree someone like Khushwant Singh should know better. I Googled to better understand the couplet, and found this below.
>
> Bring, O Lord, within our grasp that most rare love for which we pray;
> To India’s temple‐squatters teach the truth of the Islamic way.

I assure you, Dinesh SaaHib, I am in no way "learned" at all. What little I know is barely enough to get by. In this group, there indeed exist personalities who are well versed in Urdu literature, especially poetry but in the years gone by, there were a lot more such people. We are lucky to be in the company of such knowledgeable individuals and each day provides opportunities to learn from them. You may recall a well known song by Saigal, "ai kaatib-i-taqdiir mujhe itnaa bataa de...". The song has these two lines...

thaa jin ke dam-qadam se yih aabaad aashiyaaN
vuh chahchaatii bulbuleN, jaane ga'iiN kahaaN

Well, at least 3 of those "bulbuls" are still around and, unfortunately, the rest have flown away!

The translation you have found on the net is still inaccurate.

> In one of your earlier articles on ALUP, you educate us saying dair is used in a more generic way as "place of worship", not addressing "temples/hindus" but, in reality referring to Muslims in India. But ... isn't the word "dair" typically used for (hindu) temples. Ex : dair-O-haram to specifically differentiate a temple from a mosque, chiraag-e-dair, the (oil) lamp typically lit in (hindu) temples? While researching this issue, I ran into this sher (by none other than Miir) which further tells me dair is usually used to indicate a temple?
>
> miir ke diin-O-mazhab kO ab puuchhte kyaa ho un ne tO
> qashqa khIINchaa dair meiN baiThaa kab kaa tark islaam kiyaa
>
> Dinesh

My aim in quoting this shi3r with Khushwant Singh's translation was not in any way to test your knowledge and understanding of Urdu poetry but to make a point. I agree with you that one is free to make one's own interpretation of a shi3r but every interpratation is not always true or acceptable. On a number of occasions I have given my understanding of a Raj Kumar "Qais" shi3r and an Irfan Abid shi3r but the two gentlemen have provided me with a totally different explanation of what they had in mind. One can have a different interpreation of a shi3r from what the creator had in his mind (if we have access to that information) but it should not be a rediculous, unbelievable or inaccurate rendering. In the case of Khushwant Singh's translation, he has got it completely wrong. If you wish to read a bit more about this, please take a look at the thread below, in your own sweet time of course..

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.language.urdu.poetry/c/DTfSI5p-4UQ/m/fAGP49PnBQAJ

In the case of Naseer Turabi's shi3r, even if he were to return from his grave and tell us that he wrote it with Pakistan and Bangladesh in mind, historical facts tell us that he was wrong. We know this *is* the case because the information has come "from the horse's mouth", who is one of the individuals charged with the conspiracy!

All you have said about the meaning and significance of the word "dair" is correct. But, a poet like Iqbal, would never have pleaded and never did plead to God about mass conversion of Hindus who go to and worship in their temples.

You may or may not know, Iqbal's Shikvah, is his complaint to God about the sorry state of affairs of the Muslim community in general but in India in particular. God then replies in "Javaab-i-Shikvah" and puts the blame squarely on the shoulders of the Muslims themselves and no one else. Both the shikvah and the javaab are in the "musaddas" format (six liner) and this shi3r is in the 27th "band" of the poem. Out of the six lines of this "band", two are in Persian, so I will miss those out.

mushkileN ummat-i-marHuum kii aasaaN kar de
mor-i-be-maayah ko ham-dosh-i-SulaimaaN kar se
jins-i-naa-yaab-i-muHabbat ko phir arzaaN kar de
*Hind ke dair-nashiinoN ko musalmaaN kar de*
..................................................................................
..................................................................................

I initially thought of offering my own translation of the following line but I now feel I can not do better than quote the late renowned critic, janaab-i-Shamsur Rahman Faruqi, who has written a highly critical review of Khushwant Singh's translation of the Compaint and the Response to the Complaint.. Here is a link to the full article.

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/books/annualofurdustudies/pager.html?objectid=PK2151.A6152_2_117.gif

Faruqi writes....

"For example, in the shikwa itself, the fourth line of stanza twenty seven (p54) is "Hind ke dair-nashiinoN ko musalmaaN kar de ("These temple-dwellers of India, make them Muslim.") Now dair-nashiin literally means"those who sit in the temples," but here the phrase refers to the Muslims themselves, and not the Hindus. According to the protagonist, the Indian Muslims have lost the quality of Islam, and he prays that God change their hearts and make them true Muslims. Singhtranslates: "Convert to Islam India's millions who still in temples dwell." Thus the poem is made to appear not as a plaint of the Muslims who feel neglected and unloved by God, but as a prayer for conversion of the "infidels". Perhaps it is misinterpretations such as these
which have led Singh to conclude that these poems have the two nation theory in its embryonic stage. There is nothing in the poems which could support such a view. In fact, the poems could be seen as a warning to the Indian Muslims that they have forfeited, and will continue to forfeit, God's favours if they do not mend their ways. They are told that they can not pretend to be God's chosen people just because they claim to be the followers of the Prophet; God's bounty comes to those who deserve it; "Muslim" or "Infidel" in the traditional sense has no meaning for God. What has meaning is true submission, and the qualities of truth, justice, modesty, fortitude, ceaseless strife and action, fear of God rather than the fear of death, in fact all that distinguishes the perfect man............"

I hope this clarifies the issue.

Naseer

aaj kaa she'r:

i'lm meN bhii suruur hai lekin
yeh voh jannat hai jis meN Huur nahiiN!

Allama Iqbal, of course. :)

On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 at 10:24:27 AM UTC-4, Zoya wrote:
> aaj kaa she'r:
>
> i'lm meN bhii suruur hai lekin
> yeh voh jannat hai jis meN Huur nahiiN!
>
> Allama Iqbal, of course. :)
>

meraa aaj kaa she'r zara muKhtalif hai. :(

qaatil ko ham ne shahr kaa nigraaN banaa diyaa
har ghar ko us ne maut kaa maidaaN banaa diyaa

On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 10:01:14 PM UTC-6, Naseer wrote:
> On Tuesday, 27 April 2021 at 18:57:36 UTC+1, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:
> Dinesh SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai.

<snip>

>
> I hope this clarifies the issue.
>
> Naseer

Naseer sahib,

Thanks for the detailed response, it helped immensely.

Dinesh

Preamble:

voh kar rahe haiN ishq pe sanjiidah guftguu
maiN kyaa bataauuN mara kahiiN aur dhyaan hai

There is no escape from the devastating toll the latest Covid wave is taking in India. The visuals:

har saRak par, har galii meN, har nagar, har gaaoN meN
haath lehraate hue har laash chalnii chaahiye

Dushyant Kumar

...................

Between all this, the Sikh temples in Delhi taking the concept of 'langar' to another degree, providing the 'oxygen langar' for people desperate to breathe. And the gut wrenching, but heart warming, stories of volunteer Sikh young men transporting bodies of Covid patients who die at home, regardless of their religion, to crematoriums and burial grounds.

aaj kaa she'r:

ibn-e-Mariam huaa kare koii
mere dukh kii davaa kare koii

_______Zoya

Preamble:

voh kar rahe haiN ishq pe sanjiidah guftguu
maiN kyaa bataauuN mera kahiiN aur dhyaan hai

There is no escape from the devastating toll the latest Covid wave is taking in India. The visuals:

har saRak par, har galii meN, har nagar, har gaaoN meN
haath lehraate hue har laash chalnii chaahiye

Dushyant Kumar

...................

Between all this, the Sikh temples in Delhi taking the concept of 'langar' to another degree, providing the 'oxygen langar' for people desperate to breathe. And the gut wrenching, but heart warming, stories of volunteer Sikh young men transporting bodies of Covid patients who die at home, regardless of their religion, to crematoriums and burial grounds.

aaj kaa she'r:

ibn-e-Mariam huaa kare koii
mere dukh kii davaa kare koii

_______Zoya

Callous, egoist politicians. Desperate populace. Overflowing crematoriums. Disaster all around.

aaj kaa she'r:

kal numaa'ish meN milaa voh chiithRe pehne hue
maiN ne puuChhaa naam, to bolaa k Hindustaan hai

Dushyant Kumar

jis tabaahii se log bachte the
voh sar-e-aam ho rahi hai ab

An old favorite, with a new twist. By Mustafa Zaidi.

aaj kaa she'r:

gham-e-dauraaN ne bhi siikhe gham-e-jaanaaN ke chalan
vohii sochii hui chaaleN, vohii be_saaKhtapan

aaj kaa she'r:

qaatil ko ham ne shahr kaa maalik banaa diyaa
har ghar meN us ne maut ko laa kar biThaa diyaa

Irfan Abid

azmat-e-mulk is siyaasat ke
haath niilaam ho rahii hai ab

Dushyant Kumar

On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 10:01:16 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> azmat-e-mulk is siyaasat ke
> haath niilaam ho rahii hai ab
>
> Dushyant Kumar

***ZS, muHaavare ke mutaabiq ko'ii cheez kisii ke "haath" niilaam nahiiN hotii, kisii ke "haathoN" niilaam hoti hai. is she'r meN agar kahiiN par "haath" likkhaa gayaa hai to Ghalat likkhaa gayaa hai.

duusrii baat yeh k agar aap yahaaN "haath" ki bajaaye "haathoN" likkheN to bhi (is lafz ke sukeRna se) misr'a baHr meN rahe hoga.

R.K.***

On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 18:31:24 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 10:01:16 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> > azmat-e-mulk is siyaasat ke
> > haath niilaam ho rahii hai ab
> >
> > Dushyant Kumar
> ***ZS, muHaavare ke mutaabiq ko'ii cheez kisii ke "haath" niilaam nahiiN hotii, kisii ke "haathoN" niilaam hoti hai. is she'r meN agar kahiiN par "haath" likkhaa gayaa hai to Ghalat likkhaa gayaa hai.
>
> duusrii baat yeh k agar aap yahaaN "haath" ki bajaaye "haathoN" likkheN to bhi (is lafz ke sukeRna se) misr'a baHr meN rahe hoga.
>
> R.K.***

Raj Kumar SaaHib, Rekhta.org ke mutaabiq, Dushyant Kumar "biisviiN sadii ke naam-var Hindi shaa3ir aur fiction-naviis apnii maqbuul-i-3aam nazmoN ke saath Hindi meN Ghazal-go'ii ke liye jaane jaate haiN". yahaaN is shi3r meN "haath" hii likhaa hu'aa hai. in kii ek kitaab (pustak) ba-naam "saaye meN dhuup" "Hindi Kavita" site par maujuud hai aur yih shi3r Ghazal no. 44 kaa Hissah hai.

अज़मते-मुल्क इस सियासत के
हाथ नीलाम हो रही है अब

mujhe Hindi Ghazal kaa kuchh bhii 3ilm nahiiN lekin ho saktaa hai kih is qism kaa farq Urdu aur Hindi Ghazal meN ho.

Naseer

On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 2:27:05 PM UTC-4, Naseer wrote:
> On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 18:31:24 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 10:01:16 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> > > azmat-e-mulk is siyaasat ke
> > > haath niilaam ho rahii hai ab
> > >
> > > Dushyant Kumar
> > ***ZS, muHaavare ke mutaabiq ko'ii cheez kisii ke "haath" niilaam nahiiN hotii, kisii ke "haathoN" niilaam hoti hai. is she'r meN agar kahiiN par "haath" likkhaa gayaa hai to Ghalat likkhaa gayaa hai.
> >
> > duusrii baat yeh k agar aap yahaaN "haath" ki bajaaye "haathoN" likkheN to bhi (is lafz ke sukeRna se) misr'a baHr meN rahe hoga.
> >
> > R.K.***
> Raj Kumar SaaHib, Rekhta.org ke mutaabiq, Dushyant Kumar "biisviiN sadii ke naam-var Hindi shaa3ir aur fiction-naviis apnii maqbuul-i-3aam nazmoN ke saath Hindi meN Ghazal-go'ii ke liye jaane jaate haiN". yahaaN is shi3r meN "haath" hii likhaa hu'aa hai. in kii ek kitaab (pustak) ba-naam "saaye meN dhuup" "Hindi Kavita" site par maujuud hai aur yih shi3r Ghazal no. 44 kaa Hissah hai.
>
> अज़मते-मुल्क इस सियासत के
> हाथ नीलाम हो रही है अब
>
> mujhe Hindi Ghazal kaa kuchh bhii 3ilm nahiiN lekin ho saktaa hai kih is qism kaa farq Urdu aur Hindi Ghazal meN ho.
>
> Naseer
Aadaab:
I can read simple Hindi. The first word in the second line is definitely 'haath' and not 'haathoN'.
Best wishes.
Khalid

On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 2:24:25 PM UTC-7, Khalid Siddiqui wrote:
> On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 2:27:05 PM UTC-4, Naseer wrote:
> > On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 18:31:24 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 10:01:16 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> > > > azmat-e-mulk is siyaasat ke
> > > > haath niilaam ho rahii hai ab
> > > >
> > > > Dushyant Kumar
> > > ***ZS, muHaavare ke mutaabiq ko'ii cheez kisii ke "haath" niilaam nahiiN hotii, kisii ke "haathoN" niilaam hoti hai. is she'r meN agar kahiiN par "haath" likkhaa gayaa hai to Ghalat likkhaa gayaa hai.
> > >
> > > duusrii baat yeh k agar aap yahaaN "haath" ki bajaaye "haathoN" likkheN to bhi (is lafz ke sukeRna se) misr'a baHr meN rahe hoga.
> > >
> > > R.K.***
> > Raj Kumar SaaHib, Rekhta.org ke mutaabiq, Dushyant Kumar "biisviiN sadii ke naam-var Hindi shaa3ir aur fiction-naviis apnii maqbuul-i-3aam nazmoN ke saath Hindi meN Ghazal-go'ii ke liye jaane jaate haiN". yahaaN is shi3r meN "haath" hii likhaa hu'aa hai. in kii ek kitaab (pustak) ba-naam "saaye meN dhuup" "Hindi Kavita" site par maujuud hai aur yih shi3r Ghazal no. 44 kaa Hissah hai.
> >
> > अज़मते-मुल्क इस सियासत के
> > हाथ नीलाम हो रही है अब
> >
> > mujhe Hindi Ghazal kaa kuchh bhii 3ilm nahiiN lekin ho saktaa hai kih is qism kaa farq Urdu aur Hindi Ghazal meN ho.
> >
> > Naseer
> Aadaab:
> I can read simple Hindi. The first word in the second line is definitely 'haath' and not 'haathoN'.
> Best wishes.
> Khalid

***The word written here is indeed "haath". I still say that the way this word has been used here is "Khilaaf-e-muHaavara".
For instance, we say "ham to aap ke haathoN luT gaye"; we don't say "ham to aap ke haath luT gaye"!

R.K.***

On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 4:41:15 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 2:24:25 PM UTC-7, Khalid Siddiqui wrote:
> > On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 2:27:05 PM UTC-4, Naseer wrote:
> > > On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 18:31:24 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > > > On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 10:01:16 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> > > > > azmat-e-mulk is siyaasat ke
> > > > > haath niilaam ho rahii hai ab
> > > > >
> > > > > Dushyant Kumar
> > > > ***ZS, muHaavare ke mutaabiq ko'ii cheez kisii ke "haath" niilaam nahiiN hotii, kisii ke "haathoN" niilaam hoti hai. is she'r meN agar kahiiN par "haath" likkhaa gayaa hai to Ghalat likkhaa gayaa hai.
> > > >
> > > > duusrii baat yeh k agar aap yahaaN "haath" ki bajaaye "haathoN" likkheN to bhi (is lafz ke sukeRna se) misr'a baHr meN rahe hoga.
> > > >
> > > > R.K.***
> > > Raj Kumar SaaHib, Rekhta.org ke mutaabiq, Dushyant Kumar "biisviiN sadii ke naam-var Hindi shaa3ir aur fiction-naviis apnii maqbuul-i-3aam nazmoN ke saath Hindi meN Ghazal-go'ii ke liye jaane jaate haiN". yahaaN is shi3r meN "haath" hii likhaa hu'aa hai. in kii ek kitaab (pustak) ba-naam "saaye meN dhuup" "Hindi Kavita" site par maujuud hai aur yih shi3r Ghazal no. 44 kaa Hissah hai.
> > >
> > > अज़मते-मुल्क इस सियासत के
> > > हाथ नीलाम हो रही है अब
> > >
> > > mujhe Hindi Ghazal kaa kuchh bhii 3ilm nahiiN lekin ho saktaa hai kih is qism kaa farq Urdu aur Hindi Ghazal meN ho.
> > >
> > > Naseer
> > Aadaab:
> > I can read simple Hindi. The first word in the second line is definitely 'haath' and not 'haathoN'.
> > Best wishes.
> > Khalid
> ***The word written here is indeed "haath". I still say that the way this word has been used here is "Khilaaf-e-muHaavara".
> For instance, we say "ham to aap ke haathoN luT gaye"; we don't say "ham to aap ke haath luT gaye"!
>
> R.K.***

Gentlemen,

I have always been a Dushyant Kumar fan and go back to reading his poetry every so often, as I have been doing for the last few weeks. Some of his asha'ar seem so relevant in the current situation in India, you must have noticed how much I have quoted him lately.

Regarding this she'r, it indeed says 'haath' not 'haathoN', I typed it exactly as Dushyant Kumar wrote it. I have been thinking about the point Prof RK raised and wondering why this usage never seemed odd to me, this ghazal is an old favorite. I believe I have figured out the reason.

When I read this she'r, the 'muhaavraa' that I subconsciously think of is 'haathoN haath biknaa' /'haathoN haath lenaa' etc. I believe this is why 'kisii ke haath niilaam honaa' seems palatable to me. I am not really disagreeing with Prof RK, but may I at least raise the possibility that it can go either way in this particular situation?

Irfan sahib, if you are reading this discussion, will you please let us know what is your take on it?

Another learning opportunity. :)

A perpetual student,

_____Zoya

On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 3:34:02 PM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 4:41:15 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 2:24:25 PM UTC-7, Khalid Siddiqui wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 2:27:05 PM UTC-4, Naseer wrote:
> > > > On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 18:31:24 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 10:01:16 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> > > > > > azmat-e-mulk is siyaasat ke
> > > > > > haath niilaam ho rahii hai ab
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dushyant Kumar
> > > > > ***ZS, muHaavare ke mutaabiq ko'ii cheez kisii ke "haath" niilaam nahiiN hotii, kisii ke "haathoN" niilaam hoti hai. is she'r meN agar kahiiN par "haath" likkhaa gayaa hai to Ghalat likkhaa gayaa hai.
> > > > >
> > > > > duusrii baat yeh k agar aap yahaaN "haath" ki bajaaye "haathoN" likkheN to bhi (is lafz ke sukeRna se) misr'a baHr meN rahe hoga.
> > > > >
> > > > > R.K.***
> > > > Raj Kumar SaaHib, Rekhta.org ke mutaabiq, Dushyant Kumar "biisviiN sadii ke naam-var Hindi shaa3ir aur fiction-naviis apnii maqbuul-i-3aam nazmoN ke saath Hindi meN Ghazal-go'ii ke liye jaane jaate haiN". yahaaN is shi3r meN "haath" hii likhaa hu'aa hai. in kii ek kitaab (pustak) ba-naam "saaye meN dhuup" "Hindi Kavita" site par maujuud hai aur yih shi3r Ghazal no. 44 kaa Hissah hai.
> > > >
> > > > अज़मते-मुल्क इस सियासत के
> > > > हाथ नीलाम हो रही है अब
> > > >
> > > > mujhe Hindi Ghazal kaa kuchh bhii 3ilm nahiiN lekin ho saktaa hai kih is qism kaa farq Urdu aur Hindi Ghazal meN ho.
> > > >
> > > > Naseer
> > > Aadaab:
> > > I can read simple Hindi. The first word in the second line is definitely 'haath' and not 'haathoN'.
> > > Best wishes.
> > > Khalid
> > ***The word written here is indeed "haath". I still say that the way this word has been used here is "Khilaaf-e-muHaavara".
> > For instance, we say "ham to aap ke haathoN luT gaye"; we don't say "ham to aap ke haath luT gaye"!
> >
> > R.K.***
> Gentlemen,
>
> I have always been a Dushyant Kumar fan and go back to reading his poetry every so often, as I have been doing for the last few weeks. Some of his asha'ar seem so relevant in the current situation in India, you must have noticed how much I have quoted him lately.
>
> Regarding this she'r, it indeed says 'haath' not 'haathoN', I typed it exactly as Dushyant Kumar wrote it. I have been thinking about the point Prof RK raised and wondering why this usage never seemed odd to me, this ghazal is an old favorite. I believe I have figured out the reason.
>
> When I read this she'r, the 'muhaavraa' that I subconsciously think of is 'haathoN haath biknaa' /'haathoN haath lenaa' etc. I believe this is why 'kisii ke haath niilaam honaa' seems palatable to me. I am not really disagreeing with Prof RK, but may I at least raise the possibility that it can go either way in this particular situation?
>
> Irfan sahib, if you are reading this discussion, will you please let us know what is your take on it?
>
> Another learning opportunity. :)
>
> A perpetual student,
>
> _____Zoya

***ZS, ham aap ki har baat "haathoN haath" lete haiN --- but not this one.

You must have heard/read somewhere --- "moHabbat ke haathoN luTaa jaa rahaa huuN".
Without bothering about baHr/vazn, tell me if you will use the word "haath" here. Yes or no?
"luT jaana" yaa "niilaam hona" aek jaise fe'l haiN, is liye in donoN maqaamaat par lafz "haath" hi saHiiH hai.

The lesson to learn here is that every printed word is not necessarily correct or correctly used. :-)

R.K.***

On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 6:17:51 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:

> ***ZS, ham aap ki har baat "haathoN haath" lete haiN --- but not this one.
>
> You must have heard/read somewhere --- "moHabbat ke haathoN luTaa jaa rahaa huuN".
> Without bothering about baHr/vazn, tell me if you will use the word "haath" here. Yes or no?
> "luT jaana" yaa "niilaam hona" aek jaise fe'l haiN, is liye in donoN maqaamaat par lafz "haath" hi saHiiH hai.

Prof RK,

Now you have me even more confused!!

Is this a typo, did you mean to say yahaaN 'haathoN' hi sahiiH hai?
yaa phir aap meri baat 'haathoN haath' le hare haiN? :-))

> The lesson to learn here is that every printed word is not necessarily correct or correctly used. :-)
>
> R.K.***

On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 22:41:15 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 2:24:25 PM UTC-7, Khalid Siddiqui wrote:
> > On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 2:27:05 PM UTC-4, Naseer wrote:
> > > On Friday, 7 May 2021 at 18:31:24 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > > > On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 10:01:16 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> > > > > azmat-e-mulk is siyaasat ke
> > > > > haath niilaam ho rahii hai ab
> > > > >
> > > > > Dushyant Kumar
> > > > ***ZS, muHaavare ke mutaabiq ko'ii cheez kisii ke "haath" niilaam nahiiN hotii, kisii ke "haathoN" niilaam hoti hai. is she'r meN agar kahiiN par "haath" likkhaa gayaa hai to Ghalat likkhaa gayaa hai.
> > > >
> > > > duusrii baat yeh k agar aap yahaaN "haath" ki bajaaye "haathoN" likkheN to bhi (is lafz ke sukeRna se) misr'a baHr meN rahe hoga.
> > > >
> > > > R.K.***
> > > Raj Kumar SaaHib, Rekhta.org ke mutaabiq, Dushyant Kumar "biisviiN sadii ke naam-var Hindi shaa3ir aur fiction-naviis apnii maqbuul-i-3aam nazmoN ke saath Hindi meN Ghazal-go'ii ke liye jaane jaate haiN". yahaaN is shi3r meN "haath" hii likhaa hu'aa hai. in kii ek kitaab (pustak) ba-naam "saaye meN dhuup" "Hindi Kavita" site par maujuud hai aur yih shi3r Ghazal no. 44 kaa Hissah hai.
> > >
> > > अज़मते-मुल्क इस सियासत के
> > > हाथ नीलाम हो रही है अब
> > >
> > > mujhe Hindi Ghazal kaa kuchh bhii 3ilm nahiiN lekin ho saktaa hai kih is qism kaa farq Urdu aur Hindi Ghazal meN ho.
> > >
> > > Naseer
> > Aadaab:
> > I can read simple Hindi. The first word in the second line is definitely 'haath' and not 'haathoN'.
> > Best wishes.
> > Khalid
> ***The word written here is indeed "haath". I still say that the way this word has been used here is "Khilaaf-e-muHaavara".
> For instance, we say "ham to aap ke haathoN luT gaye"; we don't say "ham to aap ke haath luT gaye"!
>
> R.K.***

Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.

I was not disagreeing with your point of view at all but merely pointing to the fact that it seems the poet did use the word "haath". Apparently he hailed from UP and therefore one would n't expect this kind of idiomatic error.

3azmat-i-mulk is siyaasat ke
haath niilaam ho rahii hai ab.

Greatness of the nation is being auctioned now *by* this (kind of) politics..

You may wish to revisit the thread below, especially post 7.

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.language.urdu.poetry/c/_1T2uE83tK8/m/NCZCSOW30fUJ

nigaahoN kaa markaz banaa jaa rahaa huuN
muHabbat ke haathoN luTaa jaa rahaa huuN

kidhar hai tuu ai Ghairat-i-Husn xvud maiN
muHabbat ke haathoN bikaa jaa rahaa huuN

Jigar Muradabadi

Naseer

On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 6:17:51 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:

> ***ZS, ham aap ki har baat "haathoN haath" lete haiN --- but not this one.
>
> You must have heard/read somewhere --- "moHabbat ke haathoN luTaa jaa rahaa huuN".
> Without bothering about baHr/vazn, tell me if you will use the word "haath" here. Yes or no?
> "luT jaana" yaa "niilaam hona" aek jaise fe'l haiN, is liye in donoN maqaamaat par lafz "haath" hi saHiiH hai.

Prof RK,

Now you have me even more confused!!

Is this a typo, did you mean to say yahaaN 'haathoN' hi sahiiH hai?
yaa phir aap meri baat 'haathoN haath' le rahe haiN? :-))