Zod wrote:

> On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 12:47:10 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> On Thursday, December 1, 2022 at 1:14:05 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Thursday, December 1, 2022 at 12:23:48 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> > > On Thursday, December 1, 2022 at 7:23:43 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My Father's House
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is my father's house, although
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They said it would be quite all right
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To take a drive to see it now.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I helped, though I was only six.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be so many other places.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where I would work the summers through,
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While watching my friends run and play
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To read or play alone, and then
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay, so the poem tells a story of remembered abuse.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The extent to which the story in the poem reflects the
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> true story of your life and memory is fundamentally
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> irrelevant to the reader except to the extent that your
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> life experience informs your ability to write emotionally
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> convincing stories that are of interest to other people.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you say “My” father’s house, “By” George J. Dance,
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people are going to think you’re talking about yourself.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Therefore, “my” recommendation is to change the title of “your” poem from
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> “My Father’s House” to “Our Father’s House”, and all of the relevant pronouns
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> from singular to plural possessive. “Our” Father’s House allows “you” to represent
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and speak for “your” kin, those who identify with the speaker, and also provides a
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> subtle religious connotation, “Our Father, who art in heaven…”, that “My” does not.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for giving it so much thought and effort. I have to acknowledge
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Pluralizing all the pronouns would change the poem considerably, but one
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> thing it wouldn't change is the confusion you mentioned. If someone
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> thought this was a poem about my own father and childhood because it was
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> titled "My Father's House," they'd be just as likely to think that if it
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> were titled "Our Father's House".
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Except, of course, for that religious connotation; some might think it
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> was a poem about God. But it's not a poem about God, and that's an
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> interpretation I wouldn't want to encourage.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Lose the parentheses.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I like them. They're both interruptions in the speaker's thought process.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Exactly, you are the best judge of how your poem should be presented......
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Words of wisdom from a man who chooses to live
>> > > > >>>>>>>>> Key word being "chooses".
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>> Correct. The key word is "chooses"
>> > > > >>>>>>> And, as we all know, Zod chose the path of the Dharma Bum.
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> Do you really believe that a person who was truly following what you call "the "path of the Dharma Bum" would send a minute of their time and energy in a place like aapc?
>> > > > >>>>> Jack Kerouac, maybe, probably not Gary Snyder.
>> > > > >>>> Discovering that his most well known book spawned acolytes like you and Zod is the main reason why Jack Kerouac drank himself to death.
>> > > > >>> Not really.
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> Jack Kerouac was a hard drinker long before he became famous.
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> Look it up.
>> > > > >> I don't have to look it up, Will.
>> > > > >> My best friend's parents bought Kerouac's Northport house from Kerouac himself and he's a Kerouac scholar. He met Kerouac, has an unpublished Kerouac manuscript that he found in the house. He and I have spent many hours discussing Kerouac's life and work. Kerouac drank himself to death because of people like you.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > No, not really, Robert.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Your judgement of me is /not/ me, only your biased opinion of me.
>> > > > >
>> > > > Oh, but Will ... Bobby Rurro has a "friend". And the friend
>> > > > coincidentally just happens to be a "Kerouac scholar". Are you refusing
>> > > > to accept the judgement of a "Kerouac scholar"?
>> > > I've been reading Jack Kerouac since 1973, so I know a bit about the man, myself.
>> > Robert's friend met him, was(is?) living in his house, and owns an unpublished manuscript by Kerouac.
>> >
>> Even if all that is true; it does not show that the "Kerouac scholar" ever claimed that Kerouac drank himself to death because of people like Will Dockery; and in fact Robert never claimed that was anything but his own opinion.
>>
>> > I'd say that trumps having read some of his books.
>>
>> It's the second-oldest way to position oneself as a Usenet authority in the pre-web era: to say that you have a friend who knows all about a subject.. (The oldest, of course, is saying that you yourself know all about a subject.)

General-Zod wrote:

> George J. Dance wrote:
>>
>> My Father's House

>> This is my father's house, although
>> The man died thirteen years ago.
>> They said it would be quite all right
>> To take a drive to see it now.

>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>> Toiling after each full day's work.
>> I helped, though I was only six.

>> Look, here's the back door I would use
>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.

>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>> To be so many other places.
>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)

>> Outside, the garden that he grew
>> Where I would work the summers through,
>> While watching my friends run and play
>> Mysterious games I never knew.

>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>> The one chair I was let to sit?
>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>> Which, the corner where boys were put?

>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>> After the meal, to make no noise,
>> To read or play alone, and then

>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.

>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>> Its flames would light up all the air.

>> ~~
>> George J. Dance
>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021

> Quite an excellent poem, G.D.

Agreed, getting this thread back on topic.

On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 11:55:12 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> General-Zod wrote:
> > George J. Dance wrote:
> >>
> >> My Father's House
>
> >> This is my father's house, although
> >> The man died thirteen years ago.
> >> They said it would be quite all right
> >> To take a drive to see it now.
>
> >> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> >> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> >> Toiling after each full day's work.
> >> I helped, though I was only six.
>
> >> Look, here's the back door I would use
> >> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> >> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> >> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>
> >> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> >> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> >> To be so many other places.
> >> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>
> >> Outside, the garden that he grew
> >> Where I would work the summers through,
> >> While watching my friends run and play
> >> Mysterious games I never knew.
>
> >> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> >> The one chair I was let to sit?
> >> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> >> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>
> >> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> >> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> >> After the meal, to make no noise,
> >> To read or play alone, and then
>
> >> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> >> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> >> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> >> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>
> >> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> >> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> >> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> >> Its flames would light up all the air.
>
> >> ~~
> >> George J. Dance
> >> from Logos and other logoi, 2021

> > Quite an excellent poem, G.D.
>
> Agreed, getting this thread back on topic.

I appreciate the efforts you guys have made to keep it noticeable. There's been a lot of discussion of the poem this month, but little of it here; it makes sense to capture it in its own place. So, what can best reignite the discussion.

I think the best place to start is with this statement of mine from 15 years ago, the first sentence of which has been mentioned almost daily over the month, but which has mosttly gone unread:

"The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience, but with
some details other men have told me about their childhoods. In my
case, I have one sibling, a sister; she was never spanked, but her
workload was at least as heavy as mine.

"I always had toys and books, clean warm clothes,
and food to eat. They weren't abusive or neglectful. I'd call it a
rather normal childhood for the time. IME every home had special rules
for the children to follow, every child had chores to do, and most of
the boys were subject to corporal punishment. In fact, I'd judge that
parents who didn't do those things would have been judged neglectful
of a parent's duty."

https://groups.google.com/u/0/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/JMaPb2xVZyU/m/NFVZaZzaUgoJ?hl=en

That first sentence has been interpreted in varying ways, from an admission that the poem was an autobiographical to a disclaimer to the effect that it isn't; so it's best to pin it down somewhat. It says the poem is "largely" based on my experiences, ie more than half; but to tell the truth I didn't do a count at the time. So I decided to look at that. How many experiences are there in the poem, and how many parallel my real-life

The speaker of the poem has three "experiences":
(1) he gets permission to visit the house; (S1)
(2) he visits the house; (S1)
(3) he wants to burn the house down (S9).

In between he remembers some of his experiences as a child:
(4) he witnesses his father building the house, and gets to help'; (S2)
(5) he has to use the back door; (S3)
(6) he has to remove his shoes to enter; (S3)
(7) he has to wash dishes; (S4)
(8) he has to work in the garden; (S5)
(9) he is allowed to sit in only one chair; (S6)
(10) he is called filthy; (S6)
(11) he has to stay in his room after dinner (S7)
(12) he has an early bedtime; (S7)
(13) he is punished with a belt on his bare butt. (S8)

Of the child's experiences, 1-8 and 11-13 are based on my real-life expereiences, though some are tweaked a bit. None of the adult's are based on any real-life experiences. Meaning that "largely" was the right word to use.

George Dance wrote:

> On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 11:55:12 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> General-Zod wrote:
>> > George J. Dance wrote:
>> >>
>> >> My Father's House
>>
>> >> This is my father's house, although
>> >> The man died thirteen years ago.
>> >> They said it would be quite all right
>> >> To take a drive to see it now.
>>
>> >> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>> >> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>> >> Toiling after each full day's work.
>> >> I helped, though I was only six.
>>
>> >> Look, here's the back door I would use
>> >> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>> >> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>> >> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>>
>> >> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>> >> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>> >> To be so many other places.
>> >> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>>
>> >> Outside, the garden that he grew
>> >> Where I would work the summers through,
>> >> While watching my friends run and play
>> >> Mysterious games I never knew.
>>
>> >> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>> >> The one chair I was let to sit?
>> >> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>> >> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>>
>> >> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>> >> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>> >> After the meal, to make no noise,
>> >> To read or play alone, and then
>>
>> >> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>> >> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>> >> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>> >> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>>
>> >> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>> >> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>> >> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>> >> Its flames would light up all the air.
>>
>> >> ~~
>> >> George J. Dance
>> >> from Logos and other logoi, 2021

>> > Quite an excellent poem, G.D.
>>
>> Agreed, getting this thread back on topic.

> I appreciate the efforts you guys have made to keep it noticeable. There's been a lot of discussion of the poem this month, but little of it here; it makes sense to capture it in its own place. So, what can best reignite the discussion.

> I think the best place to start is with this statement of mine from 15 years ago, the first sentence of which has been mentioned almost daily over the month, but which has mosttly gone unread:

> "The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience, but with
> some details other men have told me about their childhoods. In my
> case, I have one sibling, a sister; she was never spanked, but her
> workload was at least as heavy as mine.

> "I always had toys and books, clean warm clothes,
> and food to eat. They weren't abusive or neglectful. I'd call it a
> rather normal childhood for the time. IME every home had special rules
> for the children to follow, every child had chores to do, and most of
> the boys were subject to corporal punishment. In fact, I'd judge that
> parents who didn't do those things would have been judged neglectful
> of a parent's duty."

> https://groups.google.com/u/0/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/JMaPb2xVZyU/m/NFVZaZzaUgoJ?hl=en

> That first sentence has been interpreted in varying ways, from an admission that the poem was an autobiographical to a disclaimer to the effect that it isn't; so it's best to pin it down somewhat. It says the poem is "largely" based on my experiences, ie more than half; but to tell the truth I didn't do a count at the time. So I decided to look at that. How many experiences are there in the poem, and how many parallel my real-life

> The speaker of the poem has three "experiences":
> (1) he gets permission to visit the house; (S1)
> (2) he vis the house; (S1)
> (3) he wants to burn the house down (S9).

> In between he remembers some of his experiences as a child:
> (4) he witnesses his father building the house, and gets to help'; (S2)
> (5) he has to use the back door; (S3)
> (6) he has to remove his shoes to enter; (S3)
> (7) he has to wash dishes; (S4)
> (8) he has to work in the garden; (S5)
> (9) he is allowed to sit in only one chair; (S6)
> (10) he is called filthy; (S6)
> (11) he has to stay in his room after dinner (S7)
> (12) he has an early bedtime; (S7)
> (13) he is punished with a belt on his bare butt. (S8)

> Of the child's experiences, 1-8 and 11-13 are based on my real-life expereiences, though some are tweaked a bit. None of the adult's are based on any real-life experiences. Meaning that "largely" was the right word to use.

Interesting backstory, George.

On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 7:22:51 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> George Dance wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 11:55:12 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> General-Zod wrote:
> >> > George J. Dance wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> My Father's House
> >>
> >> >> This is my father's house, although
> >> >> The man died thirteen years ago.
> >> >> They said it would be quite all right
> >> >> To take a drive to see it now.
> >>
> >> >> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> >> >> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> >> >> Toiling after each full day's work.
> >> >> I helped, though I was only six.
> >>
> >> >> Look, here's the back door I would use
> >> >> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> >> >> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> >> >> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> >>
> >> >> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> >> >> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> >> >> To be so many other places.
> >> >> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> >>
> >> >> Outside, the garden that he grew
> >> >> Where I would work the summers through,
> >> >> While watching my friends run and play
> >> >> Mysterious games I never knew.
> >>
> >> >> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> >> >> The one chair I was let to sit?
> >> >> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> >> >> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> >>
> >> >> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> >> >> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> >> >> After the meal, to make no noise,
> >> >> To read or play alone, and then
> >>
> >> >> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> >> >> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> >> >> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> >> >> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> >>
> >> >> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> >> >> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> >> >> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> >> >> Its flames would light up all the air.
> >>
> >> >> ~~
> >> >> George J. Dance
> >> >> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>
> >> > Quite an excellent poem, G.D.
> >>
> >> Agreed, getting this thread back on topic.
>
> > I appreciate the efforts you guys have made to keep it noticeable. There's been a lot of discussion of the poem this month, but little of it here; it makes sense to capture it in its own place. So, what can best reignite the discussion.
>
> > I think the best place to start is with this statement of mine from 15 years ago, the first sentence of which has been mentioned almost daily over the month, but which has mosttly gone unread:
>
> > "The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience, but with
> > some details other men have told me about their childhoods. In my
> > case, I have one sibling, a sister; she was never spanked, but her
> > workload was at least as heavy as mine.
>
> > "I always had toys and books, clean warm clothes,
> > and food to eat. They weren't abusive or neglectful. I'd call it a
> > rather normal childhood for the time. IME every home had special rules
> > for the children to follow, every child had chores to do, and most of
> > the boys were subject to corporal punishment. In fact, I'd judge that
> > parents who didn't do those things would have been judged neglectful
> > of a parent's duty."
>
> > https://groups.google.com/u/0/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/JMaPb2xVZyU/m/NFVZaZzaUgoJ?hl=en
>
> > That first sentence has been interpreted in varying ways, from an admission that the poem was an autobiographical to a disclaimer to the effect that it isn't; so it's best to pin it down somewhat. It says the poem is "largely" based on my experiences, ie more than half; but to tell the truth I didn't do a count at the time. So I decided to look at that. How many experiences are there in the poem, and how many parallel my real-life
>
> > The speaker of the poem has three "experiences":
> > (1) he gets permission to visit the house; (S1)
> > (2) he vis the house; (S1)
> > (3) he wants to burn the house down (S9).
>
> > In between he remembers some of his experiences as a child:
> > (4) he witnesses his father building the house, and gets to help'; (S2)
> > (5) he has to use the back door; (S3)
> > (6) he has to remove his shoes to enter; (S3)
> > (7) he has to wash dishes; (S4)
> > (8) he has to work in the garden; (S5)
> > (9) he is allowed to sit in only one chair; (S6)
> > (10) he is called filthy; (S6)
> > (11) he has to stay in his room after dinner (S7)
> > (12) he has an early bedtime; (S7)
> > (13) he is punished with a belt on his bare butt. (S8)
>
> > Of the child's experiences, 1-8 and 11-13 are based on my real-life expereiences, though some are tweaked a bit. None of the adult's are based on any real-life experiences. Meaning that "largely" was the right word to use..
> Interesting backstory, George.

Normally I wouldn't even give a backstory, given my reluctance to feed trolls details about my life, but given the amount of times that first statement has been quoted, I thought it was important to make it explicit. I've known all this, of course, but this is the first time I've actually done an inventory; and the result certainly helped me to get clarity on it.

The most interesting result is that the speaker's experiences had nothing to do with my own; he's a purely invented character. Of course he's not completely divorced from me: I couldn't have imagined his thoughts and emotions without feeling any similar thoughts at some point. But that's no different from any other character I'd invent.

Nor, I notice with relief, did my 15-year-old statement say or imply anything different. ""The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience ..." says nothing about the adult speaker, and what he was based on.

On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 11:44:29 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 7:22:51 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > George Dance wrote:
> >
> > > On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 11:55:12 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >> General-Zod wrote:
> > >> > George J. Dance wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> My Father's House
> > >>
> > >> >> This is my father's house, although
> > >> >> The man died thirteen years ago.
> > >> >> They said it would be quite all right
> > >> >> To take a drive to see it now.
> > >>
> > >> >> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > >> >> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > >> >> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > >> >> I helped, though I was only six.
> > >>
> > >> >> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > >> >> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > >> >> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > >> >> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > >>
> > >> >> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > >> >> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > >> >> To be so many other places.
> > >> >> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > >>
> > >> >> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > >> >> Where I would work the summers through,
> > >> >> While watching my friends run and play
> > >> >> Mysterious games I never knew.
> > >>
> > >> >> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > >> >> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > >> >> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > >> >> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > >>
> > >> >> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > >> >> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > >> >> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > >> >> To read or play alone, and then
> > >>
> > >> >> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > >> >> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > >> >> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > >> >> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > >>
> > >> >> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > >> >> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > >> >> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > >> >> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > >>
> > >> >> ~~
> > >> >> George J. Dance
> > >> >> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> >
> > >> > Quite an excellent poem, G.D.
> > >>
> > >> Agreed, getting this thread back on topic.
> >
> > > I appreciate the efforts you guys have made to keep it noticeable. There's been a lot of discussion of the poem this month, but little of it here; it makes sense to capture it in its own place. So, what can best reignite the discussion.
> >
> > > I think the best place to start is with this statement of mine from 15 years ago, the first sentence of which has been mentioned almost daily over the month, but which has mosttly gone unread:
> >
> > > "The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience, but with
> > > some details other men have told me about their childhoods. In my
> > > case, I have one sibling, a sister; she was never spanked, but her
> > > workload was at least as heavy as mine.
> >
> > > "I always had toys and books, clean warm clothes,
> > > and food to eat. They weren't abusive or neglectful. I'd call it a
> > > rather normal childhood for the time. IME every home had special rules
> > > for the children to follow, every child had chores to do, and most of
> > > the boys were subject to corporal punishment. In fact, I'd judge that
> > > parents who didn't do those things would have been judged neglectful
> > > of a parent's duty."
> >
> > > https://groups.google.com/u/0/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/JMaPb2xVZyU/m/NFVZaZzaUgoJ?hl=en
> >
> > > That first sentence has been interpreted in varying ways, from an admission that the poem was an autobiographical to a disclaimer to the effect that it isn't; so it's best to pin it down somewhat. It says the poem is "largely" based on my experiences, ie more than half; but to tell the truth I didn't do a count at the time. So I decided to look at that. How many experiences are there in the poem, and how many parallel my real-life
> >
> > > The speaker of the poem has three "experiences":
> > > (1) he gets permission to visit the house; (S1)
> > > (2) he vis the house; (S1)
> > > (3) he wants to burn the house down (S9).
> >
> > > In between he remembers some of his experiences as a child:
> > > (4) he witnesses his father building the house, and gets to help'; (S2)
> > > (5) he has to use the back door; (S3)
> > > (6) he has to remove his shoes to enter; (S3)
> > > (7) he has to wash dishes; (S4)
> > > (8) he has to work in the garden; (S5)
> > > (9) he is allowed to sit in only one chair; (S6)
> > > (10) he is called filthy; (S6)
> > > (11) he has to stay in his room after dinner (S7)
> > > (12) he has an early bedtime; (S7)
> > > (13) he is punished with a belt on his bare butt. (S8)
> >
> > > Of the child's experiences, 1-8 and 11-13 are based on my real-life expereiences, though some are tweaked a bit. None of the adult's are based on any real-life experiences. Meaning that "largely" was the right word to use.
> > Interesting backstory, George.
> Normally I wouldn't even give a backstory, given my reluctance to feed trolls details about my life, but given the amount of times that first statement has been quoted, I thought it was important to make it explicit. I've known all this, of course, but this is the first time I've actually done an inventory; and the result certainly helped me to get clarity on it.
>
> The most interesting result is that the speaker's experiences had nothing to do with my own; he's a purely invented character. Of course he's not completely divorced from me: I couldn't have imagined his thoughts and emotions without feeling any similar thoughts at some point. But that's no different from any other character I'd invent.
>
> Nor, I notice with relief, did my 15-year-old statement say or imply anything different. ""The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience ..." says nothing about the adult speaker, and what he was based on.
>

The fact remains that you'd been conditioned to lie in bed with your pants down, anticipating a "spanking" [sic] with a belt.

As previously noted, I find that statement incredibly disturbing: not so much by your having been whipped with a leather belt, but in thought that a child could be so broken in spirit as to submit himself to it without resistance.

That you still attempt to rationalize both your father's and your own roles in this scenario, is equally disturbing.

On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 11:44:29 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 7:22:51 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > George Dance wrote:
> >
> > > On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 11:55:12 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >> General-Zod wrote:
> > >> > George J. Dance wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> My Father's House
> > >>
> > >> >> This is my father's house, although
> > >> >> The man died thirteen years ago.
> > >> >> They said it would be quite all right
> > >> >> To take a drive to see it now.
> > >>
> > >> >> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > >> >> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > >> >> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > >> >> I helped, though I was only six.
> > >>
> > >> >> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > >> >> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > >> >> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > >> >> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > >>
> > >> >> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > >> >> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > >> >> To be so many other places.
> > >> >> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > >>
> > >> >> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > >> >> Where I would work the summers through,
> > >> >> While watching my friends run and play
> > >> >> Mysterious games I never knew.
> > >>
> > >> >> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > >> >> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > >> >> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > >> >> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > >>
> > >> >> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > >> >> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > >> >> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > >> >> To read or play alone, and then
> > >>
> > >> >> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > >> >> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > >> >> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > >> >> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > >>
> > >> >> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > >> >> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > >> >> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > >> >> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > >>
> > >> >> ~~
> > >> >> George J. Dance
> > >> >> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> >
> > >> > Quite an excellent poem, G.D.
> > >>
> > >> Agreed, getting this thread back on topic.
> >
> > > I appreciate the efforts you guys have made to keep it noticeable. There's been a lot of discussion of the poem this month, but little of it here; it makes sense to capture it in its own place. So, what can best reignite the discussion.
> >
> > > I think the best place to start is with this statement of mine from 15 years ago, the first sentence of which has been mentioned almost daily over the month, but which has mosttly gone unread:
> >
> > > "The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience, but with
> > > some details other men have told me about their childhoods. In my
> > > case, I have one sibling, a sister; she was never spanked, but her
> > > workload was at least as heavy as mine.
> >
> > > "I always had toys and books, clean warm clothes,
> > > and food to eat. They weren't abusive or neglectful. I'd call it a
> > > rather normal childhood for the time. IME every home had special rules
> > > for the children to follow, every child had chores to do, and most of
> > > the boys were subject to corporal punishment. In fact, I'd judge that
> > > parents who didn't do those things would have been judged neglectful
> > > of a parent's duty."
> >
> > > https://groups.google.com/u/0/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/JMaPb2xVZyU/m/NFVZaZzaUgoJ?hl=en
> >
> > > That first sentence has been interpreted in varying ways, from an admission that the poem was an autobiographical to a disclaimer to the effect that it isn't; so it's best to pin it down somewhat. It says the poem is "largely" based on my experiences, ie more than half; but to tell the truth I didn't do a count at the time. So I decided to look at that. How many experiences are there in the poem, and how many parallel my real-life
> >
> > > The speaker of the poem has three "experiences":
> > > (1) he gets permission to visit the house; (S1)
> > > (2) he vis the house; (S1)
> > > (3) he wants to burn the house down (S9).
> >
> > > In between he remembers some of his experiences as a child:
> > > (4) he witnesses his father building the house, and gets to help'; (S2)
> > > (5) he has to use the back door; (S3)
> > > (6) he has to remove his shoes to enter; (S3)
> > > (7) he has to wash dishes; (S4)
> > > (8) he has to work in the garden; (S5)
> > > (9) he is allowed to sit in only one chair; (S6)
> > > (10) he is called filthy; (S6)
> > > (11) he has to stay in his room after dinner (S7)
> > > (12) he has an early bedtime; (S7)
> > > (13) he is punished with a belt on his bare butt. (S8)
> >
> > > Of the child's experiences, 1-8 and 11-13 are based on my real-life expereiences, though some are tweaked a bit. None of the adult's are based on any real-life experiences. Meaning that "largely" was the right word to use.
> > Interesting backstory, George.
> Normally I wouldn't even give a backstory, given my reluctance to feed trolls details about my life, but given the amount of times that first statement has been quoted, I thought it was important to make it explicit. I've known all this, of course, but this is the first time I've actually done an inventory; and the result certainly helped me to get clarity on it.
>
> The most interesting result is that the speaker's experiences had nothing to do with my own; he's a purely invented character. Of course he's not completely divorced from me: I couldn't have imagined his thoughts and emotions without feeling any similar thoughts at some point. But that's no different from any other character I'd invent.
>
> Nor, I notice with relief, did my 15-year-old statement say or imply anything different. ""The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience ..." says nothing about the adult speaker, and what he was based on.

Good afternoon, well put.

On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 12:09:13 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 11:44:29 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 7:22:51 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > George Dance wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 11:55:12 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > >> General-Zod wrote:
> > > >> > George J. Dance wrote:
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> My Father's House
> > > >>
> > > >> >> This is my father's house, although
> > > >> >> The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > >> >> They said it would be quite all right
> > > >> >> To take a drive to see it now.
> > > >>
> > > >> >> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > >> >> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > >> >> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > >> >> I helped, though I was only six.
> > > >>
> > > >> >> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > >> >> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > >> >> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > >> >> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > > >>
> > > >> >> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > >> >> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > >> >> To be so many other places.
> > > >> >> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > > >>
> > > >> >> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > >> >> Where I would work the summers through,
> > > >> >> While watching my friends run and play
> > > >> >> Mysterious games I never knew.
> > > >>
> > > >> >> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > >> >> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > >> >> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > >> >> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > > >>
> > > >> >> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > >> >> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > >> >> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > >> >> To read or play alone, and then
> > > >>
> > > >> >> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > >> >> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > >> >> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > >> >> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > > >>
> > > >> >> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > >> >> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > >> >> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > >> >> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > > >>
> > > >> >> ~~
> > > >> >> George J. Dance
> > > >> >> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > >
> > > >> > Quite an excellent poem, G.D.
> > > >>
> > > >> Agreed, getting this thread back on topic.
> > >
> > > > I appreciate the efforts you guys have made to keep it noticeable. There's been a lot of discussion of the poem this month, but little of it here; it makes sense to capture it in its own place. So, what can best reignite the discussion.
> > >
> > > > I think the best place to start is with this statement of mine from 15 years ago, the first sentence of which has been mentioned almost daily over the month, but which has mosttly gone unread:
> > >
> > > > "The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience, but with
> > > > some details other men have told me about their childhoods. In my
> > > > case, I have one sibling, a sister; she was never spanked, but her
> > > > workload was at least as heavy as mine.
> > >
> > > > "I always had toys and books, clean warm clothes,
> > > > and food to eat. They weren't abusive or neglectful. I'd call it a
> > > > rather normal childhood for the time. IME every home had special rules
> > > > for the children to follow, every child had chores to do, and most of
> > > > the boys were subject to corporal punishment. In fact, I'd judge that
> > > > parents who didn't do those things would have been judged neglectful
> > > > of a parent's duty."
> > >
> > > > https://groups.google.com/u/0/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/JMaPb2xVZyU/m/NFVZaZzaUgoJ?hl=en
> > >
> > > > That first sentence has been interpreted in varying ways, from an admission that the poem was an autobiographical to a disclaimer to the effect that it isn't; so it's best to pin it down somewhat. It says the poem is "largely" based on my experiences, ie more than half; but to tell the truth I didn't do a count at the time. So I decided to look at that. How many experiences are there in the poem, and how many parallel my real-life
> > >
> > > > The speaker of the poem has three "experiences":
> > > > (1) he gets permission to visit the house; (S1)
> > > > (2) he vis the house; (S1)
> > > > (3) he wants to burn the house down (S9).
> > >
> > > > In between he remembers some of his experiences as a child:
> > > > (4) he witnesses his father building the house, and gets to help'; (S2)
> > > > (5) he has to use the back door; (S3)
> > > > (6) he has to remove his shoes to enter; (S3)
> > > > (7) he has to wash dishes; (S4)
> > > > (8) he has to work in the garden; (S5)
> > > > (9) he is allowed to sit in only one chair; (S6)
> > > > (10) he is called filthy; (S6)
> > > > (11) he has to stay in his room after dinner (S7)
> > > > (12) he has an early bedtime; (S7)
> > > > (13) he is punished with a belt on his bare butt. (S8)
> > >
> > > > Of the child's experiences, 1-8 and 11-13 are based on my real-life expereiences, though some are tweaked a bit. None of the adult's are based on any real-life experiences. Meaning that "largely" was the right word to use.
> > > Interesting backstory, George.
> > Normally I wouldn't even give a backstory, given my reluctance to feed trolls details about my life, but given the amount of times that first statement has been quoted, I thought it was important to make it explicit. I've known all this, of course, but this is the first time I've actually done an inventory; and the result certainly helped me to get clarity on it.
> >
> > The most interesting result is that the speaker's experiences had nothing to do with my own; he's a purely invented character. Of course he's not completely divorced from me: I couldn't have imagined his thoughts and emotions without feeling any similar thoughts at some point. But that's no different from any other character I'd invent.
> >
> > Nor, I notice with relief, did my 15-year-old statement say or imply anything different. ""The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience ..." says nothing about the adult speaker, and what he was based on.
> >
> The fact remains that you'd been conditioned to lie in bed with your pants down, anticipating a "spanking" [sic] with a belt.
>
> As previously noted, I find that statement incredibly disturbing: not so much by your having been whipped with a leather belt, but in thought that a child could be so broken in spirit as to submit himself to it without resistance.
>
> That you still attempt to rationalize both your father's and your own roles in this scenario, is equally disturbing.

Looking back with 60 years' experience, I do think it's rational for a pre-teen to comply with their parent's authority, including taking their punishments. Certainly the idea of fighting back seems to lead only to more punishment with the possibility of real abuse, as in your case; and both running away and going into foster care are also more likely to result in personal harm.

Yes, there are exceptions, but I don't see my family as one. I certainly didn't like everything my father made me do, but he wasn't there to be my friend; he was there to look after me before I was a man, and to teach me what I needed for when I became one. I don't see any of his behavior as sadistic or predatory, or anything else that would need to be rationalized.

On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 3:29:25 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 12:09:13 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 11:44:29 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 7:22:51 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > George Dance wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 11:55:12 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > >> General-Zod wrote:
> > > > >> > George J. Dance wrote:
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> My Father's House
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> This is my father's house, although
> > > > >> >> The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > > >> >> They said it would be quite all right
> > > > >> >> To take a drive to see it now.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > > >> >> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > > >> >> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > > >> >> I helped, though I was only six.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > > >> >> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > > >> >> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > > >> >> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > > >> >> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > > >> >> To be so many other places.
> > > > >> >> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > > >> >> Where I would work the summers through,
> > > > >> >> While watching my friends run and play
> > > > >> >> Mysterious games I never knew.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > > >> >> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > > >> >> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > > >> >> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > > >> >> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > > >> >> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > > >> >> To read or play alone, and then
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > > >> >> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > > >> >> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > > >> >> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > > >> >> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > > >> >> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > > >> >> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> ~~
> > > > >> >> George J. Dance
> > > > >> >> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > > >
> > > > >> > Quite an excellent poem, G.D.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Agreed, getting this thread back on topic.
> > > >
> > > > > I appreciate the efforts you guys have made to keep it noticeable.. There's been a lot of discussion of the poem this month, but little of it here; it makes sense to capture it in its own place. So, what can best reignite the discussion.
> > > >
> > > > > I think the best place to start is with this statement of mine from 15 years ago, the first sentence of which has been mentioned almost daily over the month, but which has mosttly gone unread:
> > > >
> > > > > "The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience, but with
> > > > > some details other men have told me about their childhoods. In my
> > > > > case, I have one sibling, a sister; she was never spanked, but her
> > > > > workload was at least as heavy as mine.
> > > >
> > > > > "I always had toys and books, clean warm clothes,
> > > > > and food to eat. They weren't abusive or neglectful. I'd call it a
> > > > > rather normal childhood for the time. IME every home had special rules
> > > > > for the children to follow, every child had chores to do, and most of
> > > > > the boys were subject to corporal punishment. In fact, I'd judge that
> > > > > parents who didn't do those things would have been judged neglectful
> > > > > of a parent's duty."
> > > >
> > > > > https://groups.google.com/u/0/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/JMaPb2xVZyU/m/NFVZaZzaUgoJ?hl=en
> > > >
> > > > > That first sentence has been interpreted in varying ways, from an admission that the poem was an autobiographical to a disclaimer to the effect that it isn't; so it's best to pin it down somewhat. It says the poem is "largely" based on my experiences, ie more than half; but to tell the truth I didn't do a count at the time. So I decided to look at that. How many experiences are there in the poem, and how many parallel my real-life
> > > >
> > > > > The speaker of the poem has three "experiences":
> > > > > (1) he gets permission to visit the house; (S1)
> > > > > (2) he vis the house; (S1)
> > > > > (3) he wants to burn the house down (S9).
> > > >
> > > > > In between he remembers some of his experiences as a child:
> > > > > (4) he witnesses his father building the house, and gets to help'; (S2)
> > > > > (5) he has to use the back door; (S3)
> > > > > (6) he has to remove his shoes to enter; (S3)
> > > > > (7) he has to wash dishes; (S4)
> > > > > (8) he has to work in the garden; (S5)
> > > > > (9) he is allowed to sit in only one chair; (S6)
> > > > > (10) he is called filthy; (S6)
> > > > > (11) he has to stay in his room after dinner (S7)
> > > > > (12) he has an early bedtime; (S7)
> > > > > (13) he is punished with a belt on his bare butt. (S8)
> > > >
> > > > > Of the child's experiences, 1-8 and 11-13 are based on my real-life expereiences, though some are tweaked a bit. None of the adult's are based on any real-life experiences. Meaning that "largely" was the right word to use.
> > > > Interesting backstory, George.
> > > Normally I wouldn't even give a backstory, given my reluctance to feed trolls details about my life, but given the amount of times that first statement has been quoted, I thought it was important to make it explicit. I've known all this, of course, but this is the first time I've actually done an inventory; and the result certainly helped me to get clarity on it.
> > >
> > > The most interesting result is that the speaker's experiences had nothing to do with my own; he's a purely invented character. Of course he's not completely divorced from me: I couldn't have imagined his thoughts and emotions without feeling any similar thoughts at some point. But that's no different from any other character I'd invent.
> > >
> > > Nor, I notice with relief, did my 15-year-old statement say or imply anything different. ""The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience ..." says nothing about the adult speaker, and what he was based on.
> > >
> > The fact remains that you'd been conditioned to lie in bed with your pants down, anticipating a "spanking" [sic] with a belt.
> >
> > As previously noted, I find that statement incredibly disturbing: not so much by your having been whipped with a leather belt, but in thought that a child could be so broken in spirit as to submit himself to it without resistance.
> >
> > That you still attempt to rationalize both your father's and your own roles in this scenario, is equally disturbing.
> Looking back with 60 years' experience, I do think it's rational for a pre-teen to comply with their parent's authority, including taking their punishments. Certainly the idea of fighting back seems to lead only to more punishment with the possibility of real abuse, as in your case; and both running away and going into foster care are also more likely to result in personal harm.
>

On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 3:29:25 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 12:09:13 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 11:44:29 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 7:22:51 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > George Dance wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 11:55:12 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > >> General-Zod wrote:
> > > > >> > George J. Dance wrote:
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> My Father's House
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> This is my father's house, although
> > > > >> >> The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > > >> >> They said it would be quite all right
> > > > >> >> To take a drive to see it now.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > > >> >> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > > >> >> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > > >> >> I helped, though I was only six.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > > >> >> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > > >> >> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > > >> >> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > > >> >> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > > >> >> To be so many other places.
> > > > >> >> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > > >> >> Where I would work the summers through,
> > > > >> >> While watching my friends run and play
> > > > >> >> Mysterious games I never knew.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > > >> >> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > > >> >> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > > >> >> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > > >> >> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > > >> >> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > > >> >> To read or play alone, and then
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > > >> >> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > > >> >> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > > >> >> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > > >> >> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > > >> >> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > > >> >> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> ~~
> > > > >> >> George J. Dance
> > > > >> >> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > > >
> > > > >> > Quite an excellent poem, G.D.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Agreed, getting this thread back on topic.
> > > >
> > > > > I appreciate the efforts you guys have made to keep it noticeable.. There's been a lot of discussion of the poem this month, but little of it here; it makes sense to capture it in its own place. So, what can best reignite the discussion.
> > > >
> > > > > I think the best place to start is with this statement of mine from 15 years ago, the first sentence of which has been mentioned almost daily over the month, but which has mosttly gone unread:
> > > >
> > > > > "The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience, but with
> > > > > some details other men have told me about their childhoods. In my
> > > > > case, I have one sibling, a sister; she was never spanked, but her
> > > > > workload was at least as heavy as mine.
> > > >
> > > > > "I always had toys and books, clean warm clothes,
> > > > > and food to eat. They weren't abusive or neglectful. I'd call it a
> > > > > rather normal childhood for the time. IME every home had special rules
> > > > > for the children to follow, every child had chores to do, and most of
> > > > > the boys were subject to corporal punishment. In fact, I'd judge that
> > > > > parents who didn't do those things would have been judged neglectful
> > > > > of a parent's duty."
> > > >
> > > > > https://groups.google.com/u/0/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/JMaPb2xVZyU/m/NFVZaZzaUgoJ?hl=en
> > > >
> > > > > That first sentence has been interpreted in varying ways, from an admission that the poem was an autobiographical to a disclaimer to the effect that it isn't; so it's best to pin it down somewhat. It says the poem is "largely" based on my experiences, ie more than half; but to tell the truth I didn't do a count at the time. So I decided to look at that. How many experiences are there in the poem, and how many parallel my real-life
> > > >
> > > > > The speaker of the poem has three "experiences":
> > > > > (1) he gets permission to visit the house; (S1)
> > > > > (2) he vis the house; (S1)
> > > > > (3) he wants to burn the house down (S9).
> > > >
> > > > > In between he remembers some of his experiences as a child:
> > > > > (4) he witnesses his father building the house, and gets to help'; (S2)
> > > > > (5) he has to use the back door; (S3)
> > > > > (6) he has to remove his shoes to enter; (S3)
> > > > > (7) he has to wash dishes; (S4)
> > > > > (8) he has to work in the garden; (S5)
> > > > > (9) he is allowed to sit in only one chair; (S6)
> > > > > (10) he is called filthy; (S6)
> > > > > (11) he has to stay in his room after dinner (S7)
> > > > > (12) he has an early bedtime; (S7)
> > > > > (13) he is punished with a belt on his bare butt. (S8)
> > > >
> > > > > Of the child's experiences, 1-8 and 11-13 are based on my real-life expereiences, though some are tweaked a bit. None of the adult's are based on any real-life experiences. Meaning that "largely" was the right word to use.
> > > > Interesting backstory, George.
> > > Normally I wouldn't even give a backstory, given my reluctance to feed trolls details about my life, but given the amount of times that first statement has been quoted, I thought it was important to make it explicit. I've known all this, of course, but this is the first time I've actually done an inventory; and the result certainly helped me to get clarity on it.
> > >
> > > The most interesting result is that the speaker's experiences had nothing to do with my own; he's a purely invented character. Of course he's not completely divorced from me: I couldn't have imagined his thoughts and emotions without feeling any similar thoughts at some point. But that's no different from any other character I'd invent.
> > >
> > > Nor, I notice with relief, did my 15-year-old statement say or imply anything different. ""The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience ..." says nothing about the adult speaker, and what he was based on.
> > >
> > The fact remains that you'd been conditioned to lie in bed with your pants down, anticipating a "spanking" [sic] with a belt.
> >
> > As previously noted, I find that statement incredibly disturbing: not so much by your having been whipped with a leather belt, but in thought that a child could be so broken in spirit as to submit himself to it without resistance.
> >
> > That you still attempt to rationalize both your father's and your own roles in this scenario, is equally disturbing.
> Looking back with 60 years' experience, I do think it's rational for a pre-teen to comply with their parent's authority, including taking their punishments. Certainly the idea of fighting back seems to lead only to more punishment with the possibility of real abuse, as in your case; and both running away and going into foster care are also more likely to result in personal harm.
>
> Yes, there are exceptions, but I don't see my family as one. I certainly didn't like everything my father made me do, but he wasn't there to be my friend; he was there to look after me before I was a man, and to teach me what I needed for when I became one. I don't see any of his behavior as sadistic or predatory, or anything else that would need to be rationalized.
>
> I'm comfortable with my actions as a child, and I'm comfortable with my father's as a father. I'm sorry if that disturbs you, but that's thw ay it is.

On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 3:29:25 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 12:09:13 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 11:44:29 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 7:22:51 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > George Dance wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 11:55:12 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > >> General-Zod wrote:
> > > > >> > George J. Dance wrote:
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> My Father's House
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> This is my father's house, although
> > > > >> >> The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > > >> >> They said it would be quite all right
> > > > >> >> To take a drive to see it now.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > > >> >> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > > >> >> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > > >> >> I helped, though I was only six.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > > >> >> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > > >> >> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > > >> >> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > > >> >> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > > >> >> To be so many other places.
> > > > >> >> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > > >> >> Where I would work the summers through,
> > > > >> >> While watching my friends run and play
> > > > >> >> Mysterious games I never knew.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > > >> >> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > > >> >> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > > >> >> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > > >> >> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > > >> >> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > > >> >> To read or play alone, and then
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > > >> >> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > > >> >> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > > >> >> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > > >> >> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > > >> >> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > > >> >> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >> ~~
> > > > >> >> George J. Dance
> > > > >> >> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > > >
> > > > >> > Quite an excellent poem, G.D.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Agreed, getting this thread back on topic.
> > > >
> > > > > I appreciate the efforts you guys have made to keep it noticeable.. There's been a lot of discussion of the poem this month, but little of it here; it makes sense to capture it in its own place. So, what can best reignite the discussion.
> > > >
> > > > > I think the best place to start is with this statement of mine from 15 years ago, the first sentence of which has been mentioned almost daily over the month, but which has mosttly gone unread:
> > > >
> > > > > "The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience, but with
> > > > > some details other men have told me about their childhoods. In my
> > > > > case, I have one sibling, a sister; she was never spanked, but her
> > > > > workload was at least as heavy as mine.
> > > >
> > > > > "I always had toys and books, clean warm clothes,
> > > > > and food to eat. They weren't abusive or neglectful. I'd call it a
> > > > > rather normal childhood for the time. IME every home had special rules
> > > > > for the children to follow, every child had chores to do, and most of
> > > > > the boys were subject to corporal punishment. In fact, I'd judge that
> > > > > parents who didn't do those things would have been judged neglectful
> > > > > of a parent's duty."
> > > >
> > > > > https://groups.google.com/u/0/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/JMaPb2xVZyU/m/NFVZaZzaUgoJ?hl=en
> > > >
> > > > > That first sentence has been interpreted in varying ways, from an admission that the poem was an autobiographical to a disclaimer to the effect that it isn't; so it's best to pin it down somewhat. It says the poem is "largely" based on my experiences, ie more than half; but to tell the truth I didn't do a count at the time. So I decided to look at that. How many experiences are there in the poem, and how many parallel my real-life
> > > >
> > > > > The speaker of the poem has three "experiences":
> > > > > (1) he gets permission to visit the house; (S1)
> > > > > (2) he vis the house; (S1)
> > > > > (3) he wants to burn the house down (S9).
> > > >
> > > > > In between he remembers some of his experiences as a child:
> > > > > (4) he witnesses his father building the house, and gets to help'; (S2)
> > > > > (5) he has to use the back door; (S3)
> > > > > (6) he has to remove his shoes to enter; (S3)
> > > > > (7) he has to wash dishes; (S4)
> > > > > (8) he has to work in the garden; (S5)
> > > > > (9) he is allowed to sit in only one chair; (S6)
> > > > > (10) he is called filthy; (S6)
> > > > > (11) he has to stay in his room after dinner (S7)
> > > > > (12) he has an early bedtime; (S7)
> > > > > (13) he is punished with a belt on his bare butt. (S8)
> > > >
> > > > > Of the child's experiences, 1-8 and 11-13 are based on my real-life expereiences, though some are tweaked a bit. None of the adult's are based on any real-life experiences. Meaning that "largely" was the right word to use.
> > > > Interesting backstory, George.
> > > Normally I wouldn't even give a backstory, given my reluctance to feed trolls details about my life, but given the amount of times that first statement has been quoted, I thought it was important to make it explicit. I've known all this, of course, but this is the first time I've actually done an inventory; and the result certainly helped me to get clarity on it.
> > >
> > > The most interesting result is that the speaker's experiences had nothing to do with my own; he's a purely invented character. Of course he's not completely divorced from me: I couldn't have imagined his thoughts and emotions without feeling any similar thoughts at some point. But that's no different from any other character I'd invent.
> > >
> > > Nor, I notice with relief, did my 15-year-old statement say or imply anything different. ""The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience ..." says nothing about the adult speaker, and what he was based on.
> > >
> > The fact remains that you'd been conditioned to lie in bed with your pants down, anticipating a "spanking" [sic] with a belt.
> >
> > As previously noted, I find that statement incredibly disturbing: not so much by your having been whipped with a leather belt, but in thought that a child could be so broken in spirit as to submit himself to it without resistance.
> >
> > That you still attempt to rationalize both your father's and your own roles in this scenario, is equally disturbing.
> Looking back with 60 years' experience, I do think it's rational for a pre-teen to comply with their parent's authority, including taking their punishments. Certainly the idea of fighting back seems to lead only to more punishment with the possibility of real abuse, as in your case; and both running away and going into foster care are also more likely to result in personal harm.
>
> Yes, there are exceptions, but I don't see my family as one. I certainly didn't like everything my father made me do, but he wasn't there to be my friend; he was there to look after me before I was a man, and to teach me what I needed for when I became one. I don't see any of his behavior as sadistic or predatory, or anything else that would need to be rationalized.
>
> I'm comfortable with my actions as a child, and I'm comfortable with my father's as a father. I'm sorry if that disturbs you, but that's thw ay it is.

On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 4:15:04 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 3:29:25 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 12:09:13 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 11:44:29 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > > > On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 7:22:51 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > George Dance wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 11:55:12 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > >> General-Zod wrote:
> > > > > >> > George J. Dance wrote:
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> My Father's House
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >> This is my father's house, although
> > > > > >> >> The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > > > >> >> They said it would be quite all right
> > > > > >> >> To take a drive to see it now.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > > > >> >> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > > > >> >> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > > > >> >> I helped, though I was only six.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > > > >> >> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > > > >> >> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > > > >> >> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > > > >> >> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > > > >> >> To be so many other places.
> > > > > >> >> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > > > >> >> Where I would work the summers through,
> > > > > >> >> While watching my friends run and play
> > > > > >> >> Mysterious games I never knew.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > > > >> >> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > > > >> >> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > > > >> >> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > > > >> >> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > > > >> >> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > > > >> >> To read or play alone, and then
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > > > >> >> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > > > >> >> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > > > >> >> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > > > >> >> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > > > >> >> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > > > >> >> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >> ~~
> > > > > >> >> George J. Dance
> > > > > >> >> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > > > >
> > > > > >> > Quite an excellent poem, G.D.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Agreed, getting this thread back on topic.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I appreciate the efforts you guys have made to keep it noticeable. There's been a lot of discussion of the poem this month, but little of it here; it makes sense to capture it in its own place. So, what can best reignite the discussion.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I think the best place to start is with this statement of mine from 15 years ago, the first sentence of which has been mentioned almost daily over the month, but which has mosttly gone unread:
> > > > >
> > > > > > "The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience, but with
> > > > > > some details other men have told me about their childhoods. In my
> > > > > > case, I have one sibling, a sister; she was never spanked, but her
> > > > > > workload was at least as heavy as mine.
> > > > >
> > > > > > "I always had toys and books, clean warm clothes,
> > > > > > and food to eat. They weren't abusive or neglectful. I'd call it a
> > > > > > rather normal childhood for the time. IME every home had special rules
> > > > > > for the children to follow, every child had chores to do, and most of
> > > > > > the boys were subject to corporal punishment. In fact, I'd judge that
> > > > > > parents who didn't do those things would have been judged neglectful
> > > > > > of a parent's duty."
> > > > >
> > > > > > https://groups.google.com/u/0/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/JMaPb2xVZyU/m/NFVZaZzaUgoJ?hl=en
> > > > >
> > > > > > That first sentence has been interpreted in varying ways, from an admission that the poem was an autobiographical to a disclaimer to the effect that it isn't; so it's best to pin it down somewhat. It says the poem is "largely" based on my experiences, ie more than half; but to tell the truth I didn't do a count at the time. So I decided to look at that. How many experiences are there in the poem, and how many parallel my real-life
> > > > >
> > > > > > The speaker of the poem has three "experiences":
> > > > > > (1) he gets permission to visit the house; (S1)
> > > > > > (2) he vis the house; (S1)
> > > > > > (3) he wants to burn the house down (S9).
> > > > >
> > > > > > In between he remembers some of his experiences as a child:
> > > > > > (4) he witnesses his father building the house, and gets to help'; (S2)
> > > > > > (5) he has to use the back door; (S3)
> > > > > > (6) he has to remove his shoes to enter; (S3)
> > > > > > (7) he has to wash dishes; (S4)
> > > > > > (8) he has to work in the garden; (S5)
> > > > > > (9) he is allowed to sit in only one chair; (S6)
> > > > > > (10) he is called filthy; (S6)
> > > > > > (11) he has to stay in his room after dinner (S7)
> > > > > > (12) he has an early bedtime; (S7)
> > > > > > (13) he is punished with a belt on his bare butt. (S8)
> > > > >
> > > > > > Of the child's experiences, 1-8 and 11-13 are based on my real-life expereiences, though some are tweaked a bit. None of the adult's are based on any real-life experiences. Meaning that "largely" was the right word to use.
> > > > > Interesting backstory, George.
> > > > Normally I wouldn't even give a backstory, given my reluctance to feed trolls details about my life, but given the amount of times that first statement has been quoted, I thought it was important to make it explicit. I've known all this, of course, but this is the first time I've actually done an inventory; and the result certainly helped me to get clarity on it.
> > > >
> > > > The most interesting result is that the speaker's experiences had nothing to do with my own; he's a purely invented character. Of course he's not completely divorced from me: I couldn't have imagined his thoughts and emotions without feeling any similar thoughts at some point. But that's no different from any other character I'd invent.
> > > >
> > > > Nor, I notice with relief, did my 15-year-old statement say or imply anything different. ""The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience ..." says nothing about the adult speaker, and what he was based on..
> > > >
> > > The fact remains that you'd been conditioned to lie in bed with your pants down, anticipating a "spanking" [sic] with a belt.
> > >
> > > As previously noted, I find that statement incredibly disturbing: not so much by your having been whipped with a leather belt, but in thought that a child could be so broken in spirit as to submit himself to it without resistance.
> > >
> > > That you still attempt to rationalize both your father's and your own roles in this scenario, is equally disturbing.
> > Looking back with 60 years' experience, I do think it's rational for a pre-teen to comply with their parent's authority, including taking their punishments. Certainly the idea of fighting back seems to lead only to more punishment with the possibility of real abuse, as in your case; and both running away and going into foster care are also more likely to result in personal harm.
> >
> > Yes, there are exceptions, but I don't see my family as one. I certainly didn't like everything my father made me do, but he wasn't there to be my friend; he was there to look after me before I was a man, and to teach me what I needed for when I became one. I don't see any of his behavior as sadistic or predatory, or anything else that would need to be rationalized.
> >
> > I'm comfortable with my actions as a child, and I'm comfortable with my father's as a father. I'm sorry if that disturbs you, but that's thw ay it is.
> Indeed.... indeed.....!!

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 4:15:04 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
>> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 3:29:25 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 12:09:13 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 11:44:29 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> > > > On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 7:22:51 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> > > > > George Dance wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 11:55:12 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> > > > > >> General-Zod wrote:
>> > > > > >> > George J. Dance wrote:
>> > > > > >> >>
>> > > > > >> >> My Father's House
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> >> This is my father's house, although
>> > > > > >> >> The man died thirteen years ago.
>> > > > > >> >> They said it would be quite all right
>> > > > > >> >> To take a drive to see it now.
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> >> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>> > > > > >> >> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>> > > > > >> >> Toiling after each full day's work.
>> > > > > >> >> I helped, though I was only six.
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> >> Look, here's the back door I would use
>> > > > > >> >> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>> > > > > >> >> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>> > > > > >> >> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> >> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>> > > > > >> >> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>> > > > > >> >> To be so many other places.
>> > > > > >> >> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> >> Outside, the garden that he grew
>> > > > > >> >> Where I would work the summers through,
>> > > > > >> >> While watching my friends run and play
>> > > > > >> >> Mysterious games I never knew.
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> >> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>> > > > > >> >> The one chair I was let to sit?
>> > > > > >> >> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>> > > > > >> >> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> >> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>> > > > > >> >> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>> > > > > >> >> After the meal, to make no noise,
>> > > > > >> >> To read or play alone, and then
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> >> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>> > > > > >> >> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>> > > > > >> >> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>> > > > > >> >> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> >> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>> > > > > >> >> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>> > > > > >> >> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>> > > > > >> >> Its flames would light up all the air.
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> >> ~~
>> > > > > >> >> George J. Dance
>> > > > > >> >> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>> > > > >
>> > > > > >> > Quite an excellent poem, G.D.
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> Agreed, getting this thread back on topic.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > I appreciate the efforts you guys have made to keep it noticeable. There's been a lot of discussion of the poem this month, but little of it here; it makes sense to capture it in its own place. So, what can best reignite the discussion.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > I think the best place to start is with this statement of mine from 15 years ago, the first sentence of which has been mentioned almost daily over the month, but which has mosttly gone unread:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > "The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience, but with
>> > > > > > some details other men have told me about their childhoods. In my
>> > > > > > case, I have one sibling, a sister; she was never spanked, but her
>> > > > > > workload was at least as heavy as mine.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > "I always had toys and books, clean warm clothes,
>> > > > > > and food to eat. They weren't abusive or neglectful. I'd call it a
>> > > > > > rather normal childhood for the time. IME every home had special rules
>> > > > > > for the children to follow, every child had chores to do, and most of
>> > > > > > the boys were subject to corporal punishment. In fact, I'd judge that
>> > > > > > parents who didn't do those things would have been judged neglectful
>> > > > > > of a parent's duty."
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > https://groups.google.com/u/0/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/JMaPb2xVZyU/m/NFVZaZzaUgoJ?hl=en
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > That first sentence has been interpreted in varying ways, from an admission that the poem was an autobiographical to a disclaimer to the effect that it isn't; so it's best to pin it down somewhat. It says the poem is "largely" based on my experiences, ie more than half; but to tell the truth I didn't do a count at the time. So I decided to look at that. How many experiences are there in the poem, and how many parallel my real-life
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > The speaker of the poem has three "experiences":
>> > > > > > (1) he gets permission to visit the house; (S1)
>> > > > > > (2) he vis the house; (S1)
>> > > > > > (3) he wants to burn the house down (S9).
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > In between he remembers some of his experiences as a child:
>> > > > > > (4) he witnesses his father building the house, and gets to help'; (S2)
>> > > > > > (5) he has to use the back door; (S3)
>> > > > > > (6) he has to remove his shoes to enter; (S3)
>> > > > > > (7) he has to wash dishes; (S4)
>> > > > > > (8) he has to work in the garden; (S5)
>> > > > > > (9) he is allowed to sit in only one chair; (S6)
>> > > > > > (10) he is called filthy; (S6)
>> > > > > > (11) he has to stay in his room after dinner (S7)
>> > > > > > (12) he has an early bedtime; (S7)
>> > > > > > (13) he is punished with a belt on his bare butt. (S8)
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > Of the child's experiences, 1-8 and 11-13 are based on my real-life expereiences, though some are tweaked a bit. None of the adult's are based on any real-life experiences. Meaning that "largely" was the right word to use.
>> > > > > Interesting backstory, George.
>> > > > Normally I wouldn't even give a backstory, given my reluctance to feed trolls details about my life, but given the amount of times that first statement has been quoted, I thought it was important to make it explicit. I've known all this, of course, but this is the first time I've actually done an inventory; and the result certainly helped me to get clarity on it.
>> > > >
>> > > > The most interesting result is that the speaker's experiences had nothing to do with my own; he's a purely invented character. Of course he's not completely divorced from me: I couldn't have imagined his thoughts and emotions without feeling any similar thoughts at some point. But that's no different from any other character I'd invent.
>> > > >
>> > > > Nor, I notice with relief, did my 15-year-old statement say or imply anything different. ""The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience ..." says nothing about the adult speaker, and what he was based on..
>> > > >
>> > > The fact remains that you'd been conditioned to lie in bed with your pants down, anticipating a "spanking" [sic] with a belt.
>> > >
>> > > As previously noted, I find that statement incredibly disturbing: not so much by your having been whipped with a leather belt, but in thought that a child could be so broken in spirit as to submit himself to it without resistance.
>> > >
>> > > That you still attempt to rationalize both your father's and your own roles in this scenario, is equally disturbing.
>> > Looking back with 60 years' experience, I do think it's rational for a pre-teen to comply with their parent's authority, including taking their punishments. Certainly the idea of fighting back seems to lead only to more punishment with the possibility of real abuse, as in your case; and both running away and going into foster care are also more likely to result in personal harm.
>> >
>> > Yes, there are exceptions, but I don't see my family as one. I certainly didn't like everything my father made me do, but he wasn't there to be my friend; he was there to look after me before I was a man, and to teach me what I needed for when I became one. I don't see any of his behavior as sadistic or predatory, or anything else that would need to be rationalized.
>> >
>> > I'm comfortable with my actions as a child, and I'm comfortable with my father's as a father. I'm sorry if that disturbs you, but that's thw ay it is.
>> Indeed.... indeed.....!!

On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 12:55:16 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> > On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 4:15:04 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> >> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 3:29:25 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 12:09:13 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 11:44:29 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> > > > On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 7:22:51 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> > > > > George Dance wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 11:55:12 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> > > > > >> General-Zod wrote:
> >> > > > > >> > George J. Dance wrote:
> >> > > > > >> >>
> >> > > > > >> >> My Father's House
> >> > > > > >>
> >> > > > > >> >> This is my father's house, although
> >> > > > > >> >> The man died thirteen years ago.
> >> > > > > >> >> They said it would be quite all right
> >> > > > > >> >> To take a drive to see it now.
> >> > > > > >>
> >> > > > > >> >> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> >> > > > > >> >> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> >> > > > > >> >> Toiling after each full day's work.
> >> > > > > >> >> I helped, though I was only six.
> >> > > > > >>
> >> > > > > >> >> Look, here's the back door I would use
> >> > > > > >> >> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> >> > > > > >> >> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> >> > > > > >> >> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> >> > > > > >>
> >> > > > > >> >> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> >> > > > > >> >> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> >> > > > > >> >> To be so many other places.
> >> > > > > >> >> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> >> > > > > >>
> >> > > > > >> >> Outside, the garden that he grew
> >> > > > > >> >> Where I would work the summers through,
> >> > > > > >> >> While watching my friends run and play
> >> > > > > >> >> Mysterious games I never knew.
> >> > > > > >>
> >> > > > > >> >> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> >> > > > > >> >> The one chair I was let to sit?
> >> > > > > >> >> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> >> > > > > >> >> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> >> > > > > >>
> >> > > > > >> >> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> >> > > > > >> >> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> >> > > > > >> >> After the meal, to make no noise,
> >> > > > > >> >> To read or play alone, and then
> >> > > > > >>
> >> > > > > >> >> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> >> > > > > >> >> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> >> > > > > >> >> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> >> > > > > >> >> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> >> > > > > >>
> >> > > > > >> >> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> >> > > > > >> >> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> >> > > > > >> >> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> >> > > > > >> >> Its flames would light up all the air.
> >> > > > > >>
> >> > > > > >> >> ~~
> >> > > > > >> >> George J. Dance
> >> > > > > >> >> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > >> > Quite an excellent poem, G.D.
> >> > > > > >>
> >> > > > > >> Agreed, getting this thread back on topic.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > I appreciate the efforts you guys have made to keep it noticeable. There's been a lot of discussion of the poem this month, but little of it here; it makes sense to capture it in its own place. So, what can best reignite the discussion.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > I think the best place to start is with this statement of mine from 15 years ago, the first sentence of which has been mentioned almost daily over the month, but which has mosttly gone unread:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > "The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience, but with
> >> > > > > > some details other men have told me about their childhoods. In my
> >> > > > > > case, I have one sibling, a sister; she was never spanked, but her
> >> > > > > > workload was at least as heavy as mine.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > "I always had toys and books, clean warm clothes,
> >> > > > > > and food to eat. They weren't abusive or neglectful. I'd call it a
> >> > > > > > rather normal childhood for the time. IME every home had special rules
> >> > > > > > for the children to follow, every child had chores to do, and most of
> >> > > > > > the boys were subject to corporal punishment. In fact, I'd judge that
> >> > > > > > parents who didn't do those things would have been judged neglectful
> >> > > > > > of a parent's duty."
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > https://groups.google.com/u/0/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/JMaPb2xVZyU/m/NFVZaZzaUgoJ?hl=en
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > That first sentence has been interpreted in varying ways, from an admission that the poem was an autobiographical to a disclaimer to the effect that it isn't; so it's best to pin it down somewhat. It says the poem is "largely" based on my experiences, ie more than half; but to tell the truth I didn't do a count at the time. So I decided to look at that. How many experiences are there in the poem, and how many parallel my real-life
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > The speaker of the poem has three "experiences":
> >> > > > > > (1) he gets permission to visit the house; (S1)
> >> > > > > > (2) he vis the house; (S1)
> >> > > > > > (3) he wants to burn the house down (S9).
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > In between he remembers some of his experiences as a child:
> >> > > > > > (4) he witnesses his father building the house, and gets to help'; (S2)
> >> > > > > > (5) he has to use the back door; (S3)
> >> > > > > > (6) he has to remove his shoes to enter; (S3)
> >> > > > > > (7) he has to wash dishes; (S4)
> >> > > > > > (8) he has to work in the garden; (S5)
> >> > > > > > (9) he is allowed to sit in only one chair; (S6)
> >> > > > > > (10) he is called filthy; (S6)
> >> > > > > > (11) he has to stay in his room after dinner (S7)
> >> > > > > > (12) he has an early bedtime; (S7)
> >> > > > > > (13) he is punished with a belt on his bare butt. (S8)
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > Of the child's experiences, 1-8 and 11-13 are based on my real-life expereiences, though some are tweaked a bit. None of the adult's are based on any real-life experiences. Meaning that "largely" was the right word to use.
> >> > > > > Interesting backstory, George.
> >> > > > Normally I wouldn't even give a backstory, given my reluctance to feed trolls details about my life, but given the amount of times that first statement has been quoted, I thought it was important to make it explicit. I've known all this, of course, but this is the first time I've actually done an inventory; and the result certainly helped me to get clarity on it..
> >> > > >
> >> > > > The most interesting result is that the speaker's experiences had nothing to do with my own; he's a purely invented character. Of course he's not completely divorced from me: I couldn't have imagined his thoughts and emotions without feeling any similar thoughts at some point. But that's no different from any other character I'd invent.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Nor, I notice with relief, did my 15-year-old statement say or imply anything different. ""The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience ..." says nothing about the adult speaker, and what he was based on..
> >> > > >
> >> > > The fact remains that you'd been conditioned to lie in bed with your pants down, anticipating a "spanking" [sic] with a belt.
> >> > >
> >> > > As previously noted, I find that statement incredibly disturbing: not so much by your having been whipped with a leather belt, but in thought that a child could be so broken in spirit as to submit himself to it without resistance.
> >> > >
> >> > > That you still attempt to rationalize both your father's and your own roles in this scenario, is equally disturbing.
> >> > Looking back with 60 years' experience, I do think it's rational for a pre-teen to comply with their parent's authority, including taking their punishments. Certainly the idea of fighting back seems to lead only to more punishment with the possibility of real abuse, as in your case; and both running away and going into foster care are also more likely to result in personal harm.
> >> >
> >> > Yes, there are exceptions, but I don't see my family as one. I certainly didn't like everything my father made me do, but he wasn't there to be my friend; he was there to look after me before I was a man, and to teach me what I needed for when I became one. I don't see any of his behavior as sadistic or predatory, or anything else that would need to be rationalized.
> >> >
> >> > I'm comfortable with my actions as a child, and I'm comfortable with my father's as a father. I'm sorry if that disturbs you, but that's thw ay it is.
> >> Indeed.... indeed.....!!
>
> > Haven't you got a piece of tarp to freeze to death under?
>
> > Quit shirking your responsibilities.
> We're having a heat wave down South, Pendragon.
>
> Try to keep up.

George Dance wrote:

> On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 11:55:12 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> General-Zod wrote:
>> > George J. Dance wrote:
>> >>
>> >> My Father's House
>>
>> >> This is my father's house, although
>> >> The man died thirteen years ago.
>> >> They said it would be quite all right
>> >> To take a drive to see it now.
>>
>> >> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>> >> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>> >> Toiling after each full day's work.
>> >> I helped, though I was only six.
>>
>> >> Look, here's the back door I would use
>> >> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>> >> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>> >> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>>
>> >> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>> >> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>> >> To be so many other places.
>> >> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>>
>> >> Outside, the garden that he grew
>> >> Where I would work the summers through,
>> >> While watching my friends run and play
>> >> Mysterious games I never knew.
>>
>> >> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>> >> The one chair I was let to sit?
>> >> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>> >> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>>
>> >> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>> >> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>> >> After the meal, to make no noise,
>> >> To read or play alone, and then
>>
>> >> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>> >> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>> >> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>> >> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>>
>> >> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>> >> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>> >> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>> >> Its flames would light up all the air.
>>
>> >> ~~
>> >> George J. Dance
>> >> from Logos and other logoi, 2021

>> > Quite an excellent poem, G.D.
>>
>> Agreed, getting this thread back on topic.

> I appreciate the efforts you guys have made to keep it noticeable. There's been a lot of discussion of the poem this month, but little of it here; it makes sense to capture it in its own place. So, what can best reignite the discussion.

> I think the best place to start is with this statement of mine from 15 years ago, the first sentence of which has been mentioned almost daily over the month, but which has mosttly gone unread:

> "The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience, but with
> some details other men have told me about their childhoods. In my
> case, I have one sibling, a sister; she was never spanked, but her
> workload was at least as heavy as mine.

> "I always had toys and books, clean warm clothes,
> and food to eat. They weren't abusive or neglectful. I'd call it a
> rather normal childhood for the time. IME every home had special rules
> for the children to follow, every child had chores to do, and most of
> the boys were subject to corporal punishment. In fact, I'd judge that
> parents who didn't do those things would have been judged neglectful
> of a parent's duty."

> https://groups.google.com/u/0/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/JMaPb2xVZyU/m/NFVZaZzaUgoJ?hl=en

> That first sentence has been interpreted in varying ways, from an admission that the poem was an autobiographical to a disclaimer to the effect that it isn't; so it's best to pin it down somewhat. It says the poem is "largely" based on my experiences, ie more than half; but to tell the truth I didn't do a count at the time. So I decided to look at that. How many experiences are there in the poem, and how many parallel my real-life

> The speaker of the poem has three "experiences":
> (1) he gets permission to visit the house; (S1)
> (2) he visits the house; (S1)
> (3) he wants to burn the house down (S9).

> In between he remembers some of his experiences as a child:
> (4) he witnesses his father building the house, and gets to help'; (S2)
> (5) he has to use the back door; (S3)
> (6) he has to remove his shoes to enter; (S3)
> (7) he has to wash dishes; (S4)
> (8) he has to work in the garden; (S5)
> (9) he is allowed to sit in only one chair; (S6)
> (10) he is called filthy; (S6)
> (11) he has to stay in his room after dinner (S7)
> (12) he has an early bedtime; (S7)
> (13) he is punished with a belt on his bare butt. (S8)

> Of the child's experiences, 1-8 and 11-13 are based on my real-life expereiences, though some are tweaked a bit. None of the adult's are based on any real-life experiences. Meaning that "largely" was the right word to use.

Exactly, as Karla Rogers so often reminded us:

"Please don't mistake the speaker of the poem with the writer of the poem."

HTH and HAND.

On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 7:20:13 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> George Dance wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 11:55:12 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> General-Zod wrote:
> >> > George J. Dance wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> My Father's House
> >>
> >> >> This is my father's house, although
> >> >> The man died thirteen years ago.
> >> >> They said it would be quite all right
> >> >> To take a drive to see it now.
> >>
> >> >> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> >> >> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> >> >> Toiling after each full day's work.
> >> >> I helped, though I was only six.
> >>
> >> >> Look, here's the back door I would use
> >> >> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> >> >> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> >> >> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> >>
> >> >> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> >> >> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> >> >> To be so many other places.
> >> >> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> >>
> >> >> Outside, the garden that he grew
> >> >> Where I would work the summers through,
> >> >> While watching my friends run and play
> >> >> Mysterious games I never knew.
> >>
> >> >> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> >> >> The one chair I was let to sit?
> >> >> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> >> >> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> >>
> >> >> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> >> >> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> >> >> After the meal, to make no noise,
> >> >> To read or play alone, and then
> >>
> >> >> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> >> >> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> >> >> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> >> >> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> >>
> >> >> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> >> >> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> >> >> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> >> >> Its flames would light up all the air.
> >>
> >> >> ~~
> >> >> George J. Dance
> >> >> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>
> >> > Quite an excellent poem, G.D.
> >>
> >> Agreed, getting this thread back on topic.
>
> > I appreciate the efforts you guys have made to keep it noticeable. There's been a lot of discussion of the poem this month, but little of it here; it makes sense to capture it in its own place. So, what can best reignite the discussion.
>
> > I think the best place to start is with this statement of mine from 15 years ago, the first sentence of which has been mentioned almost daily over the month, but which has mosttly gone unread:
>
> > "The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience, but with
> > some details other men have told me about their childhoods. In my
> > case, I have one sibling, a sister; she was never spanked, but her
> > workload was at least as heavy as mine.
>
> > "I always had toys and books, clean warm clothes,
> > and food to eat. They weren't abusive or neglectful. I'd call it a
> > rather normal childhood for the time. IME every home had special rules
> > for the children to follow, every child had chores to do, and most of
> > the boys were subject to corporal punishment. In fact, I'd judge that
> > parents who didn't do those things would have been judged neglectful
> > of a parent's duty."
>
> > https://groups.google.com/u/0/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/JMaPb2xVZyU/m/NFVZaZzaUgoJ?hl=en
>
> > That first sentence has been interpreted in varying ways, from an admission that the poem was an autobiographical to a disclaimer to the effect that it isn't; so it's best to pin it down somewhat. It says the poem is "largely" based on my experiences, ie more than half; but to tell the truth I didn't do a count at the time. So I decided to look at that. How many experiences are there in the poem, and how many parallel my real-life
>
> > The speaker of the poem has three "experiences":
> > (1) he gets permission to visit the house; (S1)
> > (2) he visits the house; (S1)
> > (3) he wants to burn the house down (S9).
>
> > In between he remembers some of his experiences as a child:
> > (4) he witnesses his father building the house, and gets to help'; (S2)
> > (5) he has to use the back door; (S3)
> > (6) he has to remove his shoes to enter; (S3)
> > (7) he has to wash dishes; (S4)
> > (8) he has to work in the garden; (S5)
> > (9) he is allowed to sit in only one chair; (S6)
> > (10) he is called filthy; (S6)
> > (11) he has to stay in his room after dinner (S7)
> > (12) he has an early bedtime; (S7)
> > (13) he is punished with a belt on his bare butt. (S8)
>
> > Of the child's experiences, 1-8 and 11-13 are based on my real-life expereiences, though some are tweaked a bit. None of the adult's are based on any real-life experiences. Meaning that "largely" was the right word to use..
> Exactly, as Karla Rogers so often reminded us:
>
> "Please don't mistake the speaker of the poem with the writer of the poem.."

What part of "largely based on my own experience ..." are you failing to understand, Donkey?

On Saturday, November 26, 2022 at 4:02:41 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> On Saturday, November 26, 2022 at 3:49:07 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >
> > My Father's House
> >
> > This is my father's house, although
> > The man died thirteen years ago.
> > They said it would be quite all right
> > To take a drive to see it now.
> >
> > Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > Toiling after each full day's work.
> > I helped, though I was only six.
> >
> > Look, here's the back door I would use
> > And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> >
> > In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > To be so many other places.
> > (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> >
> > Outside, the garden that he grew
> > Where I would work the summers through,
> > While watching my friends run and play
> > Mysterious games I never knew.
> >
> > That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > The one chair I was let to sit?
> > (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > Which, the corner where boys were put?
> >
> > Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > After the meal, to make no noise,
> > To read or play alone, and then
> >
> > Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> >
> > Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > Its flames would light up all the air.
> >
> > ~~
> > George J. Dance
> > from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!

Again, agreed.

THE SAGA OF JORDAN T. CHASESCOTT

Uncle Isaac took his belt
And gave Young Jordy 40 welts.
Jordy grew to like the whacks
And Uncle Isaac’s touching acts.

Isaac Chase thought that Jordy was cute
'Specially dressed in his new birthday suit,
Isaac squeezed his love handles
Then blew out his candles,
Bent over and let out a "Toot!"

Isaac pulled his nephew's pid
Sucked him dry then tongued his hole;
Nephew Jordy was just a kid
When he first straddled Isaac's pole.

Isaac rode Jordy bareback at seven
And cornholed him big-time at eight
He left him creampied at eleven
And went back home to masturbate.

Isaac groped little Jordy on Friday
Isaac sucked him off Saturday night
Isaac fucked Jordy six times on Sunday
Yeah, his weekend was going alright.

There's only on "t" in "Sonnet."

Isaac nailed Jordy on summer's day.
Beneath the willow by the backdoor gate:
He squeezed his lovebuds, then he had his way
But quick release cut all too short the date;
Sometime too hot the elder Chase becomes
And often spills his load ere passion's dimm'd;
Where is the joy in picking Jordy's plums
Or planting kisses in his grass untrimm'd
When shorts are cream'd and flaccid members fail?
Thou Jordy's willing, Ike gave up the ghost;
Still discontent, he fondles Jordy's tale,
For tis the ass enamors him the most:
So long as Isaac still has eyes to see,
He'll strap one one and stick it to Jordy.

Isaac chased boys when he was a toddler
He chased toddlers when he went school,
He made brownies with them as a young man,
Stirred their pudding until he would drool.

Isaac chased little boys on the playground
Although he was a middle aged man,
Donkey punched till his mudpacker turned brown
Tho he preferred to say it was tan.
The Jordy Factor
a poem by Will Dockery as told to NancyGene

Jordy’s a good sub for dead Lady K
He jiggles his ass and says it’s foreplay
with my massive moobs that even young Clay
has to admit that he’d like to sashay
in the chorus that kicks on LeGents parquet
floor where Jordy and I rolled ‘round in May
when he visited us to show us his fey
manners and though his family’s rich, hey,
I’m not too proud to say that I’d lay
him for free and he won’t have to pay
for extras like hi there’s, night-nights and oy veys.

Isaac Chase was a pixie I knew
Who diddled his widdle nephew,
Jordy pulled Isaac's pud
But his pud was a dud
And now poor Isaac's sack has turned blue.

When Jordy was just a wee laddie
He'd pull down his pants for his daddy,
Uncle paid him a call
And buggered him raw
And Jordy cried "Uncle Ike had me."

Isaac had a young nephew named Jordy
Whose tuchus he simply adored, he
Got Jordy to bare it
That he might then share it
And buggered the boy while he roared "Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!"

Uncle Isaac didn't care for his mommy,
His classmates found him a bit balmy;
It was said that the lad
Flicked his Bic for his dad:
Now chows on Nephew Jordy's shalomi.

Uncle Isaac desired little boys
He thought Jordy had exquisite poise
For a boy not yet ten
(He preferred boys to men)
And a man must have what he enjoys.

Little Jordy was sugar and spice
So his old uncle didn't think twice
About dipping his pole
In young Jordy's piehole,
Boston cream never seemed worth the price.

Uncle Isaac's an internet troll
Who fingered his nephew's dunghole,
Isaac stuck in his thumb
And made Jordy cum
And cried "Hola, Will -- I'm on a role!"

Isaac corked up Jordy Chase's bunghole,
Chocolate cha-cha'd til morning was nigh;
Gave his nephew a sloppy Picaso
He's a fart knockin', mud packin' guy.

Jordy Chase bought his uncle a butt plug
In the hope that he'd leave him alone;
Isaac plugged up his hole
And such joy filled his soul
That he plugged Jordy's hole with his own.

Uncle Isaac's a middle aged twit
Who's been found competently unfit,
For it's said he enjoys
Gallivanting with boys
And dipping his dick in their shit.

Isaac buggered Jordy in the bedroom
Isaac buggered Jordy in the car
Isaac buggered Jordy in the Men's Room
Of LeGents', Shadowville's favorite bar.

Uncle Isaac chased Jordy around his first crib,
Uncle Isaac "fed" Jordy and splooged on his bib,
Isaac changed Jordy's diapers for open-crotch hose
Then he buggered the toddler and jizzed on his nose.

Isaac cornswabbled his nephew's dinky
Pulled his joystick as if he played Pong;
Dipped his poo jabber till it got stinky
And nicknamed his dong "Donkey Kong."

When Jordan Chasescott was a lad
His Uncle Ike wanted him bad,
With the youth in his sights
Isaac gave up his nights
To baby sit straddling his 'nads.

Uncle Isaac was more like an ant
Who would crawl down young Jordy’s pants.
Jordy’d wiggle and scratch
But Isaac attached
Himself with coagulants.

Uncle Isaac ignored his niece, Judy,
Who didn’t have quite the same booty.
So Judy was spared,
And stood there and stared,
While Jordy got it in the patootie.

When Jordy went on Price is Right
His bung-hole shown like a nightlight.
He said it was Uncle
Ike and Garfuckles
Who implanted in him a Lite-Brite.

Uncle Isaac hosted family for Easter.
He told his sister he’d feast her.
They ate honey baked ham
And rack of young lamb
While Isaac dined on Jordy’s keister.

Isaac Chased Jordan Chasescott
From when he was just a young tot.
Isaac gave him a ball
and that wasn’t all,
for his undies had X marks the spot.

Uncle Isaac would pat Jordy’s buttock
And soothe him to sleep with some smut talk.
As Joey took vids
And entertained bids,
Little Jordy’s cradle would rock.

Uncle Isaac said let’s play Cowboys,
For riding is one of my joys.
I’ll be Roy, you’ll be Trigger,
As we gallop with vigor,
And Jordy, you’ll make whinny noise.

Isaac liked his nephew Jordy’s rear view,
From whence Jordy did his #2.
Jordy did #1
And Isaac said, son,
That not what we Commies doo-doo.

Jordan Chasescott had a gluteus--
That Uncle Isaac said was beauteous.
Isaac said drop your pants,
Give your Uncle a chance,
To give you a rub that’s salubrious.

Uncle Isaac and Jordan would read nursery rhymes
About Commies and sex and YouTube crimes.
Jordy learned about jails
And Joey’s porn sales
While Isaac performed pantomimes.

Isaac Chase’s “love dared not speak its name”
So Jordan was written into Internet fame.
Isaac thanked Will and Zod
And committed job fraud
While Jordan Chasescott bore the shame.

Jordan Chasescott was naïve
Of what Isaac hid up his sleeve.
Isaac gave him a bath
While he did the math
That at least he wouldn’t conceive.

Little Jordan Chasescott lost his way.
Uncle Isaac yelled, “I’ll save the day!”
“Take off your pants
And I’ll do a belt Dance
On your butt ‘til you can say
Uncle!”

Jordan Chasescott’s derriere
Would get lots of sun and fresh air.
Uncle Isaac would blow
And Jordan would know
That he didn’t need any beachwear.

Isaac Chase was childlike and hopeless
And hung out with folks who were soapless.
Isaac took Jordy’s hand
And said I’m your man,
But no one can make me grope you less.

Jordan sits in Isaac’s lap while they drive,
Isaac is 49 and Jordy’s 25.
Jordy said it’s U-turn,
Isaac said how I burn
To lay rubber on I-95.

Jordan Chasescott was expertly groomed
After visiting Isaac’s bedroom.
Jordan had a strong yen
To trade Barbies for Ken
And to keep his small tuchus perfumed.

Stout Joseph was pen-pals with “Price is Right” Jordan.
Chasescott Jordan offered photos to Stout Joseph’s warden.
Pics of Will Dockery
Made Stout Joe a mockery,
Since his dad wore just a bleue cordon.

Jordan Chasescott would cover his hiney,
But his Uncle still wanted to dine, he
Would tell Jord, “Look squirrel!”
Jordan’s pink toes would curl,
And Uncle’d declare that was fine eats.

Isaac Chase tried to buy his young nephew,
But his sister wouldn’t sell and was deaf to
Isaac’s sad pleas
To give Jordy a squeeze,
So Isaac nailed him and said “Guess who?”

Young Jordy wished to play with some girls,
But Isaac said girls make me hurl.
You should have a guy
And then you’ll know why
I dress you in ruffles and pearls.

Jordan Chasescott tried to be what he’s not.
Uncle Isaac told him that to be gay was hot.
Isaac Chase said come here
And I’ll fondle your rear--
You’ll remember the things you forgot.

Isaac Chase dearly loved his nephew and tried
To kiss Jordan Chasescott’s tiny backside.
Jordan said, Uncle Ike,
Could I have a new bike?
So Isaac gave him a banana seat ride.

Jordan scorned warnings and read
Playboy Magazines stashed by his bed.
Uncle Isaac then stressed
Don’t look at a breast:
I have Playgirl for you instead.

George Dance wrote:

> On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 11:55:12 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> General-Zod wrote:
>> > George J. Dance wrote:
>> >>
>> >> My Father's House
>>
>> >> This is my father's house, although
>> >> The man died thirteen years ago.
>> >> They said it would be quite all right
>> >> To take a drive to see it now.
>>
>> >> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>> >> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>> >> Toiling after each full day's work.
>> >> I helped, though I was only six.
>>
>> >> Look, here's the back door I would use
>> >> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>> >> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>> >> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>>
>> >> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>> >> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>> >> To be so many other places.
>> >> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>>
>> >> Outside, the garden that he grew
>> >> Where I would work the summers through,
>> >> While watching my friends run and play
>> >> Mysterious games I never knew.
>>
>> >> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>> >> The one chair I was let to sit?
>> >> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>> >> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>>
>> >> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>> >> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>> >> After the meal, to make no noise,
>> >> To read or play alone, and then
>>
>> >> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>> >> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>> >> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>> >> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>>
>> >> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>> >> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>> >> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>> >> Its flames would light up all the air.
>>
>> >> ~~
>> >> George J. Dance
>> >> from Logos and other logoi, 2021

>> > Quite an excellent poem, G.D.
>>
>> Agreed, getting this thread back on topic.

> I appreciate the efforts you guys have made to keep it noticeable. There's been a lot of discussion of the poem this month, but little of it here; it makes sense to capture it in its own place. So, what can best reignite the discussion.

> I think the best place to start is with this statement of mine from 15 years ago, the first sentence of which has been mentioned almost daily over the month, but which has mosttly gone unread:

> "The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience, but with
> some details other men have told me about their childhoods. In my
> case, I have one sibling, a sister; she was never spanked, but her
> workload was at least as heavy as mine.

> "I always had toys and books, clean warm clothes,
> and food to eat. They weren't abusive or neglectful. I'd call it a
> rather normal childhood for the time. IME every home had special rules
> for the children to follow, every child had chores to do, and most of
> the boys were subject to corporal punishment. In fact, I'd judge that
> parents who didn't do those things would have been judged neglectful
> of a parent's duty."

> https://groups.google.com/u/0/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/JMaPb2xVZyU/m/NFVZaZzaUgoJ?hl=en

> That first sentence has been interpreted in varying ways, from an admission that the poem was an autobiographical to a disclaimer to the effect that it isn't; so it's best to pin it down somewhat. It says the poem is "largely" based on my experiences, ie more than half; but to tell the truth I didn't do a count at the time. So I decided to look at that. How many experiences are there in the poem, and how many parallel my real-life

> The speaker of the poem has three "experiences":
> (1) he gets permission to visit the house; (S1)
> (2) he visits the house; (S1)
> (3) he wants to burn the house down (S9).

> In between he remembers some of his experiences as a child:
> (4) he witnesses his father building the house, and gets to help'; (S2)
> (5) he has to use the back door; (S3)
> (6) he has to remove his shoes to enter; (S3)
> (7) he has to wash dishes; (S4)
> (8) he has to work in the garden; (S5)
> (9) he is allowed to sit in only one chair; (S6)
> (10) he is called filthy; (S6)
> (11) he has to stay in his room after dinner (S7)
> (12) he has an early bedtime; (S7)
> (13) he is punished with a belt on his bare butt. (S8)

> Of the child's experiences, 1-8 and 11-13 are based on my real-life expereiences, though some are tweaked a bit. None of the adult's are based on any real-life experiences. Meaning that "largely" was the right word to use.

Again, well put.

On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 3:54:04 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 3:29:25 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 12:09:13 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 11:44:29 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > > > On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 7:22:51 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > George Dance wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 11:55:12 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > >> General-Zod wrote:
> > > > > >> > George J. Dance wrote:
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> My Father's House
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >> This is my father's house, although
> > > > > >> >> The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > > > >> >> They said it would be quite all right
> > > > > >> >> To take a drive to see it now.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > > > >> >> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > > > >> >> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > > > >> >> I helped, though I was only six.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > > > >> >> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > > > >> >> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > > > >> >> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > > > >> >> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > > > >> >> To be so many other places.
> > > > > >> >> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > > > >> >> Where I would work the summers through,
> > > > > >> >> While watching my friends run and play
> > > > > >> >> Mysterious games I never knew.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > > > >> >> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > > > >> >> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > > > >> >> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > > > >> >> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > > > >> >> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > > > >> >> To read or play alone, and then
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > > > >> >> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > > > >> >> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > > > >> >> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > > > >> >> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > > > >> >> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > > > >> >> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >> ~~
> > > > > >> >> George J. Dance
> > > > > >> >> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > > > >
> > > > > >> > Quite an excellent poem, G.D.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Agreed, getting this thread back on topic.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I appreciate the efforts you guys have made to keep it noticeable. There's been a lot of discussion of the poem this month, but little of it here; it makes sense to capture it in its own place. So, what can best reignite the discussion.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I think the best place to start is with this statement of mine from 15 years ago, the first sentence of which has been mentioned almost daily over the month, but which has mosttly gone unread:
> > > > >
> > > > > > "The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience, but with
> > > > > > some details other men have told me about their childhoods. In my
> > > > > > case, I have one sibling, a sister; she was never spanked, but her
> > > > > > workload was at least as heavy as mine.
> > > > >
> > > > > > "I always had toys and books, clean warm clothes,
> > > > > > and food to eat. They weren't abusive or neglectful. I'd call it a
> > > > > > rather normal childhood for the time. IME every home had special rules
> > > > > > for the children to follow, every child had chores to do, and most of
> > > > > > the boys were subject to corporal punishment. In fact, I'd judge that
> > > > > > parents who didn't do those things would have been judged neglectful
> > > > > > of a parent's duty."
> > > > >
> > > > > > https://groups.google.com/u/0/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/JMaPb2xVZyU/m/NFVZaZzaUgoJ?hl=en
> > > > >
> > > > > > That first sentence has been interpreted in varying ways, from an admission that the poem was an autobiographical to a disclaimer to the effect that it isn't; so it's best to pin it down somewhat. It says the poem is "largely" based on my experiences, ie more than half; but to tell the truth I didn't do a count at the time. So I decided to look at that. How many experiences are there in the poem, and how many parallel my real-life
> > > > >
> > > > > > The speaker of the poem has three "experiences":
> > > > > > (1) he gets permission to visit the house; (S1)
> > > > > > (2) he vis the house; (S1)
> > > > > > (3) he wants to burn the house down (S9).
> > > > >
> > > > > > In between he remembers some of his experiences as a child:
> > > > > > (4) he witnesses his father building the house, and gets to help'; (S2)
> > > > > > (5) he has to use the back door; (S3)
> > > > > > (6) he has to remove his shoes to enter; (S3)
> > > > > > (7) he has to wash dishes; (S4)
> > > > > > (8) he has to work in the garden; (S5)
> > > > > > (9) he is allowed to sit in only one chair; (S6)
> > > > > > (10) he is called filthy; (S6)
> > > > > > (11) he has to stay in his room after dinner (S7)
> > > > > > (12) he has an early bedtime; (S7)
> > > > > > (13) he is punished with a belt on his bare butt. (S8)
> > > > >
> > > > > > Of the child's experiences, 1-8 and 11-13 are based on my real-life expereiences, though some are tweaked a bit. None of the adult's are based on any real-life experiences. Meaning that "largely" was the right word to use.
> > > > > Interesting backstory, George.
> > > > Normally I wouldn't even give a backstory, given my reluctance to feed trolls details about my life, but given the amount of times that first statement has been quoted, I thought it was important to make it explicit. I've known all this, of course, but this is the first time I've actually done an inventory; and the result certainly helped me to get clarity on it.
> > > >
> > > > The most interesting result is that the speaker's experiences had nothing to do with my own; he's a purely invented character. Of course he's not completely divorced from me: I couldn't have imagined his thoughts and emotions without feeling any similar thoughts at some point. But that's no different from any other character I'd invent.
> > > >
> > > > Nor, I notice with relief, did my 15-year-old statement say or imply anything different. ""The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience ..." says nothing about the adult speaker, and what he was based on..
> > > >
> > > The fact remains that you'd been conditioned to lie in bed with your pants down, anticipating a "spanking" [sic] with a belt.
> > >
> > > As previously noted, I find that statement incredibly disturbing: not so much by your having been whipped with a leather belt, but in thought that a child could be so broken in spirit as to submit himself to it without resistance.
> > >
> > > That you still attempt to rationalize both your father's and your own roles in this scenario, is equally disturbing.

> IME, children don't break rules in front of their parents or otherwise let their parents know they're breaking them (which is necessary for punishment to result, and therefore necessary for a child to "know that a physical punishment will be the result."
>

But your experience (based on the depiction of your childhood in your poem) is not in keeping with the norm. If I got angry with one of my siblings, I hit them (and vice versa). I didn't care who was looking. A child hasn't the emotional resources to control his anger.

And when one of my parents attempted to punish me as a result, I ran, and when caught, fought back against, my parent. This, too, was an emotional response comprising elements of both anger and fear.

> Rather, they try to minimize that by changing their own behavior, and even adopting rules (like confidentiality) of their own. Given a child's wants -- to break a rule and to not be punished -- such behavior looks perfectly rational.
>

Children can be deceitful, but since they often get away with it, and are therefore not punished for it, it doesn't really apply.

We are talking about when a child gets punished, and in order to get punished a child must get caught. Again, children have difficulty controlling their anger, and it is generally behavioral issues stemming from anger that children are punished for (hitting a sibling, stealing or intentionally breaking a sibling's toy, taunting a sibling to tears, etc. These acts are not premeditated and the child lacks the necessary self-restraint to avoid them through behavioral modification.

> OTOH, breaking a rule, getting caught, and trying to escape punishment by fighting one's father, does not look rational. That is the point.

It is not rational. As I've already stated, if children were always rational, they wouldn't repeatedly break the rules when they knew that punishment was the result.

Children are incapable of rationality during moments of emotional excitement (anger). When one's siblings stick out their tongues and repeatedly chant "Nyah nyah nyah na na," even the most rational child can only hold out for so long.

> > I cannot imagine anyone with even a spark of willpower resigning themselves quietly and complacently to whippings on a regular basis.
> It sounds like you don't understand the idea of "willpower". Fight and flight are fear-based, emotional reactions that come from the animal brain, not the will. It doesn't take any willpower to give in to them. It does take willpower to *not* give in to them.
>

I was using "willpower" in accordance with the Nietzschean concept of Will to Power, which an Ayn Rand disciple like yourself should have readily understood.

As a six-year old boy, your Will to Power had long been beaten out of you by your father.

> > > Yes, there are exceptions, but I don't see my family as one. I certainly didn't like everything my father made me do, but he wasn't there to be my friend; he was there to look after me before I was a man, and to teach me what I needed for when I became one. I don't see any of his behavior as sadistic or predatory, or anything else that would need to be rationalized.
>
> > As I said, you wouldn't see it as an exception because it was *your* normality -- a situation that you were born into. Those of us on the outside looking in, see it as extremely abusive.
> Of course You think it's normal to fight with one's father and be beaten into submission because that was your "normality" as as a preteen (as irrational and abusive as itt may sound to others).

You're attempting to confuse the issue of normal childhood behavior with that of abusive parents. My father was abusive. My response to his abusiveness with normal.

> > > I'm comfortable with my actions as a child, and I'm comfortable with my father's as a father. I'm sorry if that disturbs you, but that's thw ay it is.
>
> > If you're comfortable with them, you've no need to convince me or my colleague of their normalcy. Nor need you entertain fantasies of burning your father's house to the ground.,
> Where did you get the idea that I expect to "convince" either you or NastyGoon? You have your own childhood, of unnamed punishments, fighting with your father, and constantly being beaten into submission, and that's your normality. .
>

I got that idea from your having obsessively argued the point ("The lady doth protest too much, methinks.").

On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 7:26:58 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 3:54:04 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 3:29:25 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 12:09:13 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 11:44:29 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 7:22:51 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > George Dance wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 11:55:12 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > >> General-Zod wrote:
> > > > > > >> > George J. Dance wrote:
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> My Father's House
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> >> This is my father's house, although
> > > > > > >> >> The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > > > > >> >> They said it would be quite all right
> > > > > > >> >> To take a drive to see it now.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> >> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > > > > >> >> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > > > > >> >> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > > > > >> >> I helped, though I was only six.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> >> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > > > > >> >> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > > > > >> >> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > > > > >> >> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> >> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > > > > >> >> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > > > > >> >> To be so many other places.
> > > > > > >> >> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> >> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > > > > >> >> Where I would work the summers through,
> > > > > > >> >> While watching my friends run and play
> > > > > > >> >> Mysterious games I never knew.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> >> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > > > > >> >> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > > > > >> >> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > > > > >> >> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> >> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > > > > >> >> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > > > > >> >> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > > > > >> >> To read or play alone, and then
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> >> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > > > > >> >> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > > > > >> >> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > > > > >> >> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> >> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > > > > >> >> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > > > > >> >> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > > > > >> >> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> >> ~~
> > > > > > >> >> George J. Dance
> > > > > > >> >> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > Quite an excellent poem, G.D.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Agreed, getting this thread back on topic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I appreciate the efforts you guys have made to keep it noticeable. There's been a lot of discussion of the poem this month, but little of it here; it makes sense to capture it in its own place. So, what can best reignite the discussion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think the best place to start is with this statement of mine from 15 years ago, the first sentence of which has been mentioned almost daily over the month, but which has mosttly gone unread:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > "The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience, but with
> > > > > > > some details other men have told me about their childhoods. In my
> > > > > > > case, I have one sibling, a sister; she was never spanked, but her
> > > > > > > workload was at least as heavy as mine.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > "I always had toys and books, clean warm clothes,
> > > > > > > and food to eat. They weren't abusive or neglectful. I'd call it a
> > > > > > > rather normal childhood for the time. IME every home had special rules
> > > > > > > for the children to follow, every child had chores to do, and most of
> > > > > > > the boys were subject to corporal punishment. In fact, I'd judge that
> > > > > > > parents who didn't do those things would have been judged neglectful
> > > > > > > of a parent's duty."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://groups.google.com/u/0/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/JMaPb2xVZyU/m/NFVZaZzaUgoJ?hl=en
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > That first sentence has been interpreted in varying ways, from an admission that the poem was an autobiographical to a disclaimer to the effect that it isn't; so it's best to pin it down somewhat. It says the poem is "largely" based on my experiences, ie more than half; but to tell the truth I didn't do a count at the time. So I decided to look at that. How many experiences are there in the poem, and how many parallel my real-life
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > The speaker of the poem has three "experiences":
> > > > > > > (1) he gets permission to visit the house; (S1)
> > > > > > > (2) he vis the house; (S1)
> > > > > > > (3) he wants to burn the house down (S9).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > In between he remembers some of his experiences as a child:
> > > > > > > (4) he witnesses his father building the house, and gets to help'; (S2)
> > > > > > > (5) he has to use the back door; (S3)
> > > > > > > (6) he has to remove his shoes to enter; (S3)
> > > > > > > (7) he has to wash dishes; (S4)
> > > > > > > (8) he has to work in the garden; (S5)
> > > > > > > (9) he is allowed to sit in only one chair; (S6)
> > > > > > > (10) he is called filthy; (S6)
> > > > > > > (11) he has to stay in his room after dinner (S7)
> > > > > > > (12) he has an early bedtime; (S7)
> > > > > > > (13) he is punished with a belt on his bare butt. (S8)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Of the child's experiences, 1-8 and 11-13 are based on my real-life expereiences, though some are tweaked a bit. None of the adult's are based on any real-life experiences. Meaning that "largely" was the right word to use.
> > > > > > Interesting backstory, George.
> > > > > Normally I wouldn't even give a backstory, given my reluctance to feed trolls details about my life, but given the amount of times that first statement has been quoted, I thought it was important to make it explicit.. I've known all this, of course, but this is the first time I've actually done an inventory; and the result certainly helped me to get clarity on it.
> > > > >
> > > > > The most interesting result is that the speaker's experiences had nothing to do with my own; he's a purely invented character. Of course he's not completely divorced from me: I couldn't have imagined his thoughts and emotions without feeling any similar thoughts at some point. But that's no different from any other character I'd invent.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nor, I notice with relief, did my 15-year-old statement say or imply anything different. ""The boy is a composite; largely based on my own experience ..." says nothing about the adult speaker, and what he was based on.
> > > > >
> > > > The fact remains that you'd been conditioned to lie in bed with your pants down, anticipating a "spanking" [sic] with a belt.
> > > >
> > > > As previously noted, I find that statement incredibly disturbing: not so much by your having been whipped with a leather belt, but in thought that a child could be so broken in spirit as to submit himself to it without resistance.
> > > >
> > > > That you still attempt to rationalize both your father's and your own roles in this scenario, is equally disturbing.
>
> > > Looking back with 60 years' experience, I do think it's rational for a pre-teen to comply with their parent's authority, including taking their punishments. Certainly the idea of fighting back seems to lead only to more punishment with the possibility of real abuse, as in your case; and both running away and going into foster care are also more likely to result in personal harm.
> > >
> > Rationality is not the point. If children were always rational, they wouldn't keep breaking the rules when they know that a physical punishment will be the result.
> IME, children don't break rules in front of their parents or otherwise let their parents know they're breaking them (which is necessary for punishment to result, and therefore necessary for a child to "know that a physical punishment will be the result." Rather, they try to minimize that by changing their own behavior, and even adopting rules (like confidentiality) of their own. Given a child's wants -- to break a rule and to not be punished -- such behavior looks perfectly rational.
>
> OTOH, breaking a rule, getting caught, and trying to escape punishment by fighting one's father, does not look rational. That is the point.
> > I cannot imagine anyone with even a spark of willpower resigning themselves quietly and complacently to whippings on a regular basis.
> It sounds like you don't understand the idea of "willpower". Fight and flight are fear-based, emotional reactions that come from the animal brain, not the will. It doesn't take any willpower to give in to them. It does take willpower to *not* give in to them.
> > > Yes, there are exceptions, but I don't see my family as one. I certainly didn't like everything my father made me do, but he wasn't there to be my friend; he was there to look after me before I was a man, and to teach me what I needed for when I became one. I don't see any of his behavior as sadistic or predatory, or anything else that would need to be rationalized.
>
> > As I said, you wouldn't see it as an exception because it was *your* normality -- a situation that you were born into. Those of us on the outside looking in, see it as extremely abusive.
> Of course You think it's normal to fight with one's father and be beaten into submission because that was your "normality" as as a preteen (as irrational and abusive as itt may sound to others).
> > > I'm comfortable with my actions as a child, and I'm comfortable with my father's as a father. I'm sorry if that disturbs you, but that's thw ay it is.
>
> > If you're comfortable with them, you've no need to convince me or my colleague of their normalcy. Nor need you entertain fantasies of burning your father's house to the ground.,
> Where did you get the idea that I expect to "convince" either you or NastyGoon? You have your own childhood, of unnamed punishments, fighting with your father, and constantly being beaten into submission, and that's your normality. .

George J. Dance wrote:
>
> My Father's House
>
> This is my father's house, although
> The man died thirteen years ago.
> They said it would be quite all right
> To take a drive to see it now.
>
> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> Toiling after each full day's work.
> I helped, though I was only six.
>
> Look, here's the back door I would use
> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>
> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> To be so many other places.
> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>
> Outside, the garden that he grew
> Where I would work the summers through,
> While watching my friends run and play
> Mysterious games I never knew.
>
> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> The one chair I was let to sit?
> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>
> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> After the meal, to make no noise,
> To read or play alone, and then
>
> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>
> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> Its flames would light up all the air.
>
> ~~
> George J. Dance
> from Logos and other logoi, 2021

Outstanding poem and at an all time high of reader interest for this group, just look at all the spin offs...!!

On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 5:14:33 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> George J. Dance wrote:
> >
> > My Father's House
> >
> > This is my father's house, although
> > The man died thirteen years ago.
> > They said it would be quite all right
> > To take a drive to see it now.
> >
> > Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > Toiling after each full day's work.
> > I helped, though I was only six.
> >
> > Look, here's the back door I would use
> > And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> >
> > In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > To be so many other places.
> > (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> >
> > Outside, the garden that he grew
> > Where I would work the summers through,
> > While watching my friends run and play
> > Mysterious games I never knew.
> >
> > That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > The one chair I was let to sit?
> > (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > Which, the corner where boys were put?
> >
> > Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > After the meal, to make no noise,
> > To read or play alone, and then
> >
> > Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> >
> > Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > Its flames would light up all the air.
> >
> > ~~
> > George J. Dance
> > from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> Outstanding poem and at an all time high of reader interest for this group, just look at all the spin offs...!!

Yeah! At least 30 OB poems from the Chimp alone. That must be a record.

On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 5:03:42 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 5:14:33 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> > George J. Dance wrote:
> > >
> > > My Father's House
> > >
> > > This is my father's house, although
> > > The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > They said it would be quite all right
> > > To take a drive to see it now.
> > >
> > > Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > I helped, though I was only six.
> > >
> > > Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > >
> > > In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > To be so many other places.
> > > (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > >
> > > Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > Where I would work the summers through,
> > > While watching my friends run and play
> > > Mysterious games I never knew.
> > >
> > > That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > >
> > > Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > To read or play alone, and then
> > >
> > > Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > >
> > > Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > Its flames would light up all the air.
> > >
> > > ~~
> > > George J. Dance
> > > from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > Outstanding poem and at an all time high of reader interest for this group, just look at all the spin offs...!!
> Yeah! At least 30 OB poems from the Chimp alone. That must be a record.

So... an illiterate pissbum tells you that the various parodies of your poem are "spin offs".... and you are desperate enough to play along?

Are you really *that* needy, George?