On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 5:03:42 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 5:14:33 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> > George J. Dance wrote:
> > >
> > > My Father's House
> > >
> > > This is my father's house, although
> > > The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > They said it would be quite all right
> > > To take a drive to see it now.
> > >
> > > Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > I helped, though I was only six.
> > >
> > > Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > >
> > > In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > To be so many other places.
> > > (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > >
> > > Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > Where I would work the summers through,
> > > While watching my friends run and play
> > > Mysterious games I never knew.
> > >
> > > That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > >
> > > Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > To read or play alone, and then
> > >
> > > Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > >
> > > Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > Its flames would light up all the air.
> > >
> > > ~~
> > > George J. Dance
> > > from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > Outstanding poem and at an all time high of reader interest for this group, just look at all the spin offs...!!
> Yeah! At least 30 OB poems from the Chimp alone. That must be a record.

Even Dennis M Hammes didn't go that far over the edge.

On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 10:42:43 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 5:03:42 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 5:14:33 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> > > George J. Dance wrote:
> > > >
> > > > My Father's House
> > > >
> > > > This is my father's house, although
> > > > The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > > They said it would be quite all right
> > > > To take a drive to see it now.
> > > >
> > > > Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > > And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > > Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > > I helped, though I was only six.
> > > >
> > > > Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > > And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > > To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > > And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > > >
> > > > In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > > Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > > To be so many other places.
> > > > (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > > >
> > > > Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > > Where I would work the summers through,
> > > > While watching my friends run and play
> > > > Mysterious games I never knew.
> > > >
> > > > That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > > The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > > (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > > Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > > >
> > > > Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > > Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > > After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > > To read or play alone, and then
> > > >
> > > > Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > > Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > > Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > > As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > > >
> > > > Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > > I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > > I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > > Its flames would light up all the air.
> > > >
> > > > ~~
> > > > George J. Dance
> > > > from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > > Outstanding poem and at an all time high of reader interest for this group, just look at all the spin offs...!!
> > Yeah! At least 30 OB poems from the Chimp alone. That must be a record.
> Even Dennis M Hammes didn't go that far over the edge.

Dennis Hammes didn't have Jim's audience.

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 10:42:43 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 5:03:42 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 5:14:33 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
>> > > George J. Dance wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > My Father's House
>> > > >
>> > > > This is my father's house, although
>> > > > The man died thirteen years ago.
>> > > > They said it would be quite all right
>> > > > To take a drive to see it now.
>> > > >
>> > > > Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>> > > > And built the whole thing (from a box),
>> > > > Toiling after each full day's work.
>> > > > I helped, though I was only six.
>> > > >
>> > > > Look, here's the back door I would use
>> > > > And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>> > > > To enter; there I'd leave my things
>> > > > And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>> > > >
>> > > > In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>> > > > Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>> > > > To be so many other places.
>> > > > (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>> > > >
>> > > > Outside, the garden that he grew
>> > > > Where I would work the summers through,
>> > > > While watching my friends run and play
>> > > > Mysterious games I never knew.
>> > > >
>> > > > That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>> > > > The one chair I was let to sit?
>> > > > (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>> > > > Which, the corner where boys were put?
>> > > >
>> > > > Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>> > > > Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>> > > > After the meal, to make no noise,
>> > > > To read or play alone, and then
>> > > >
>> > > > Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>> > > > Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>> > > > Face and pyjama bottoms down
>> > > > As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>> > > >
>> > > > Oh, if I were a millionaire
>> > > > I'd buy my father's house, and there
>> > > > I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>> > > > Its flames would light up all the air.
>> > > >
>> > > > ~~
>> > > > George J. Dance
>> > > > from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>> > > Outstanding poem and at an all time high of reader interest for this group, just look at all the spin offs...!!
>> > Yeah! At least 30 OB poems from the Chimp alone. That must be a record.
>> Even Dennis M Hammes didn't go that far over the edge.

> Dennis Hammes didn't have Jim's audience.

An audience of thugs and trolls.

We know.

On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 11:03:00 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 10:42:43 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 5:03:42 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 5:14:33 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> >> > > George J. Dance wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > My Father's House
> >> > > >
> >> > > > This is my father's house, although
> >> > > > The man died thirteen years ago.
> >> > > > They said it would be quite all right
> >> > > > To take a drive to see it now.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> >> > > > And built the whole thing (from a box),
> >> > > > Toiling after each full day's work.
> >> > > > I helped, though I was only six.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Look, here's the back door I would use
> >> > > > And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> >> > > > To enter; there I'd leave my things
> >> > > > And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> >> > > > Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> >> > > > To be so many other places.
> >> > > > (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Outside, the garden that he grew
> >> > > > Where I would work the summers through,
> >> > > > While watching my friends run and play
> >> > > > Mysterious games I never knew.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> >> > > > The one chair I was let to sit?
> >> > > > (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> >> > > > Which, the corner where boys were put?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> >> > > > Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> >> > > > After the meal, to make no noise,
> >> > > > To read or play alone, and then
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> >> > > > Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> >> > > > Face and pyjama bottoms down
> >> > > > As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Oh, if I were a millionaire
> >> > > > I'd buy my father's house, and there
> >> > > > I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> >> > > > Its flames would light up all the air.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ~~
> >> > > > George J. Dance
> >> > > > from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> >> > > Outstanding poem and at an all time high of reader interest for this group, just look at all the spin offs...!!
> >> > Yeah! At least 30 OB poems from the Chimp alone. That must be a record.
> >> Even Dennis M Hammes didn't go that far over the edge.
>
> > Dennis Hammes didn't have Jim's audience.
> An audience of thugs and trolls.
>
> We know.

An audience of poets and artists.

On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 5:14:33 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> George J. Dance wrote:
> >
> > My Father's House
> >
> > This is my father's house, although
> > The man died thirteen years ago.
> > They said it would be quite all right
> > To take a drive to see it now.
> >
> > Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > Toiling after each full day's work.
> > I helped, though I was only six.
> >
> > Look, here's the back door I would use
> > And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> >
> > In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > To be so many other places.
> > (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> >
> > Outside, the garden that he grew
> > Where I would work the summers through,
> > While watching my friends run and play
> > Mysterious games I never knew.
> >
> > That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > The one chair I was let to sit?
> > (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > Which, the corner where boys were put?
> >
> > Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > After the meal, to make no noise,
> > To read or play alone, and then
> >
> > Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> >
> > Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > Its flames would light up all the air.
> >
> > ~~
> > George J. Dance
> > from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> Outstanding poem and at an all time high of reader interest for this group, just look at all the spin offs...!!

It does have some devoted fans.

🙂

On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 11:46:25 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 5:14:33 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> > George J. Dance wrote:
> > >
> > > My Father's House
> > >
> > > This is my father's house, although
> > > The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > They said it would be quite all right
> > > To take a drive to see it now.
> > >
> > > Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > I helped, though I was only six.
> > >
> > > Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > >
> > > In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > To be so many other places.
> > > (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > >
> > > Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > Where I would work the summers through,
> > > While watching my friends run and play
> > > Mysterious games I never knew.
> > >
> > > That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > >
> > > Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > To read or play alone, and then
> > >
> > > Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > >
> > > Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > Its flames would light up all the air.
> > >
> > > ~~
> > > George J. Dance
> > > from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > Outstanding poem and at an all time high of reader interest for this group, just look at all the spin offs...!!
> It does have some devoted fans.

From what I've seen, it initially met with derision and has since become a running joke.

HtH & HAND

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 11:03:00 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>
>> > On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 10:42:43 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 5:03:42 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> >> > On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 5:14:33 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
>> >> > > George J. Dance wrote:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > My Father's House
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > This is my father's house, although
>> >> > > > The man died thirteen years ago.
>> >> > > > They said it would be quite all right
>> >> > > > To take a drive to see it now.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>> >> > > > And built the whole thing (from a box),
>> >> > > > Toiling after each full day's work.
>> >> > > > I helped, though I was only six.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Look, here's the back door I would use
>> >> > > > And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>> >> > > > To enter; there I'd leave my things
>> >> > > > And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>> >> > > > Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>> >> > > > To be so many other places.
>> >> > > > (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Outside, the garden that he grew
>> >> > > > Where I would work the summers through,
>> >> > > > While watching my friends run and play
>> >> > > > Mysterious games I never knew.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>> >> > > > The one chair I was let to sit?
>> >> > > > (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>> >> > > > Which, the corner where boys were put?
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>> >> > > > Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>> >> > > > After the meal, to make no noise,
>> >> > > > To read or play alone, and then
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>> >> > > > Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>> >> > > > Face and pyjama bottoms down
>> >> > > > As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Oh, if I were a millionaire
>> >> > > > I'd buy my father's house, and there
>> >> > > > I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>> >> > > > Its flames would light up all the air.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > ~~
>> >> > > > George J. Dance
>> >> > > > from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>> >> > > Outstanding poem and at an all time high of reader interest for this group, just look at all the spin offs...!!
>> >> > Yeah! At least 30 OB poems from the Chimp alone. That must be a record.
>> >> Even Dennis M Hammes didn't go that far over the edge.
>>
>> > Dennis Hammes didn't have Jim's audience.
>> An audience of thugs and trolls.
>>
>> We know.

> An audience

I didn't expect you to admit to leading a gang of thugs and trolls, Pendragon.

🙂

On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 2:35:15 PM UTC-5, W-Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 11:03:00 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 10:42:43 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 5:03:42 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> >> > On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 5:14:33 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> >> >> > > George J. Dance wrote:
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > My Father's House
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > This is my father's house, although
> >> >> > > > The man died thirteen years ago.
> >> >> > > > They said it would be quite all right
> >> >> > > > To take a drive to see it now.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> >> >> > > > And built the whole thing (from a box),
> >> >> > > > Toiling after each full day's work.
> >> >> > > > I helped, though I was only six.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Look, here's the back door I would use
> >> >> > > > And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> >> >> > > > To enter; there I'd leave my things
> >> >> > > > And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> >> >> > > > Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> >> >> > > > To be so many other places.
> >> >> > > > (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Outside, the garden that he grew
> >> >> > > > Where I would work the summers through,
> >> >> > > > While watching my friends run and play
> >> >> > > > Mysterious games I never knew.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> >> >> > > > The one chair I was let to sit?
> >> >> > > > (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> >> >> > > > Which, the corner where boys were put?
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> >> >> > > > Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> >> >> > > > After the meal, to make no noise,
> >> >> > > > To read or play alone, and then
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> >> >> > > > Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> >> >> > > > Face and pyjama bottoms down
> >> >> > > > As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Oh, if I were a millionaire
> >> >> > > > I'd buy my father's house, and there
> >> >> > > > I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> >> >> > > > Its flames would light up all the air.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > ~~
> >> >> > > > George J. Dance
> >> >> > > > from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> >> >> > > Outstanding poem and at an all time high of reader interest for this group, just look at all the spin offs...!!
> >> >> > Yeah! At least 30 OB poems from the Chimp alone. That must be a record.
> >> >> Even Dennis M Hammes didn't go that far over the edge.
> >>
> >> > Dennis Hammes didn't have Jim's audience.
> >> An audience of thugs and trolls.
> >>
> >> We know.
>
> > An audience
> I didn't expect you to admit to leading a gang of thugs and trolls, Pendragon.

Grow the fuck up, you crybaby.

On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 5:03:42 AM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 5:14:33 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> > George J. Dance wrote:
> > >
> > > My Father's House
> > >
> > > This is my father's house, although
> > > The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > They said it would be quite all right
> > > To take a drive to see it now.
> > >
> > > Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > I helped, though I was only six.
> > >
> > > Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > >
> > > In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > To be so many other places.
> > > (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > >
> > > Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > Where I would work the summers through,
> > > While watching my friends run and play
> > > Mysterious games I never knew.
> > >
> > > That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > >
> > > Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > To read or play alone, and then
> > >
> > > Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > >
> > > Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > Its flames would light up all the air.
> > >
> > > ~~
> > > George J. Dance
> > > from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > Outstanding poem and at an all time high of reader interest for this group, just look at all the spin offs...!!
> Yeah! At least 30 OB poems from the Chimp alone. That must be a record.

Jim Senetto's slobbering obsession knows no limits it seems ... ha ha...

The feeble minded little fuckhead... !!

On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 3:50:22 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 5:03:42 AM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 5:14:33 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> > > George J. Dance wrote:
> > > >
> > > > My Father's House
> > > >
> > > > This is my father's house, although
> > > > The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > > They said it would be quite all right
> > > > To take a drive to see it now.
> > > >
> > > > Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > > And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > > Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > > I helped, though I was only six.
> > > >
> > > > Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > > And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > > To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > > And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > > >
> > > > In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > > Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > > To be so many other places.
> > > > (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > > >
> > > > Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > > Where I would work the summers through,
> > > > While watching my friends run and play
> > > > Mysterious games I never knew.
> > > >
> > > > That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > > The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > > (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > > Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > > >
> > > > Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > > Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > > After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > > To read or play alone, and then
> > > >
> > > > Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > > Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > > Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > > As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > > >
> > > > Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > > I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > > I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > > Its flames would light up all the air.
> > > >
> > > > ~~
> > > > George J. Dance
> > > > from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > > Outstanding poem and at an all time high of reader interest for this group, just look at all the spin offs...!!
> > Yeah! At least 30 OB poems from the Chimp alone. That must be a record.
> Jim Senetto's slobbering obsession knows no limits it seems ... ha ha...
>
> The feeble minded little fuckhead... !!

THE SAGA OF JORDAN T. CHASESCOTT

Uncle Isaac took his belt
And gave Young Jordy 40 welts.
Jordy grew to like the whacks
And Uncle Isaac’s touching acts.

Isaac Chase thought that Jordy was cute
'Specially dressed in his new birthday suit,
Isaac squeezed his love handles
Then blew out his candles,
Bent over and let out a "Toot!"

Isaac pulled his nephew's pid
Sucked him dry then tongued his hole;
Nephew Jordy was just a kid
When he first straddled Isaac's pole.

Isaac rode Jordy bareback at seven
And cornholed him big-time at eight
He left him creampied at eleven
And went back home to masturbate.

Isaac groped little Jordy on Friday
Isaac sucked him off Saturday night
Isaac fucked Jordy six times on Sunday
Yeah, his weekend was going alright.

There's only on "t" in "Sonnet."

Isaac nailed Jordy on summer's day.
Beneath the willow by the backdoor gate:
He squeezed his lovebuds, then he had his way
But quick release cut all too short the date;
Sometime too hot the elder Chase becomes
And often spills his load ere passion's dimm'd;
Where is the joy in picking Jordy's plums
Or planting kisses in his grass untrimm'd
When shorts are cream'd and flaccid members fail?
Thou Jordy's willing, Ike gave up the ghost;
Still discontent, he fondles Jordy's tale,
For tis the ass enamors him the most:
So long as Isaac still has eyes to see,
He'll strap one one and stick it to Jordy.

Isaac chased boys when he was a toddler
He chased toddlers when he went school,
He made brownies with them as a young man,
Stirred their pudding until he would drool.

Isaac chased little boys on the playground
Although he was a middle aged man,
Donkey punched till his mudpacker turned brown
Tho he preferred to say it was tan.
The Jordy Factor
a poem by Will Dockery as told to NancyGene

Jordy’s a good sub for dead Lady K
He jiggles his ass and says it’s foreplay
with my massive moobs that even young Clay
has to admit that he’d like to sashay
in the chorus that kicks on LeGents parquet
floor where Jordy and I rolled ‘round in May
when he visited us to show us his fey
manners and though his family’s rich, hey,
I’m not too proud to say that I’d lay
him for free and he won’t have to pay
for extras like hi there’s, night-nights and oy veys.

Isaac Chase was a pixie I knew
Who diddled his widdle nephew,
Jordy pulled Isaac's pud
But his pud was a dud
And now poor Isaac's sack has turned blue.

When Jordy was just a wee laddie
He'd pull down his pants for his daddy,
Uncle paid him a call
And buggered him raw
And Jordy cried "Uncle Ike had me."

Isaac had a young nephew named Jordy
Whose tuchus he simply adored, he
Got Jordy to bare it
That he might then share it
And buggered the boy while he roared "Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!"

Uncle Isaac didn't care for his mommy,
His classmates found him a bit balmy;
It was said that the lad
Flicked his Bic for his dad:
Now chows on Nephew Jordy's shalomi.

Uncle Isaac desired little boys
He thought Jordy had exquisite poise
For a boy not yet ten
(He preferred boys to men)
And a man must have what he enjoys.

Little Jordy was sugar and spice
So his old uncle didn't think twice
About dipping his pole
In young Jordy's piehole,
Boston cream never seemed worth the price.

Uncle Isaac's an internet troll
Who fingered his nephew's dunghole,
Isaac stuck in his thumb
And made Jordy cum
And cried "Hola, Will -- I'm on a role!"

Isaac corked up Jordy Chase's bunghole,
Chocolate cha-cha'd til morning was nigh;
Gave his nephew a sloppy Picaso
He's a fart knockin', mud packin' guy.

Jordy Chase bought his uncle a butt plug
In the hope that he'd leave him alone;
Isaac plugged up his hole
And such joy filled his soul
That he plugged Jordy's hole with his own.

Uncle Isaac's a middle aged twit
Who's been found competently unfit,
For it's said he enjoys
Gallivanting with boys
And dipping his dick in their shit.

Isaac buggered Jordy in the bedroom
Isaac buggered Jordy in the car
Isaac buggered Jordy in the Men's Room
Of LeGents', Shadowville's favorite bar.

Uncle Isaac chased Jordy around his first crib,
Uncle Isaac "fed" Jordy and splooged on his bib,
Isaac changed Jordy's diapers for open-crotch hose
Then he buggered the toddler and jizzed on his nose.

Isaac cornswabbled his nephew's dinky
Pulled his joystick as if he played Pong;
Dipped his poo jabber till it got stinky
And nicknamed his dong "Donkey Kong."

When Jordan Chasescott was a lad
His Uncle Ike wanted him bad,
With the youth in his sights
Isaac gave up his nights
To baby sit straddling his 'nads.

Uncle Isaac was more like an ant
Who would crawl down young Jordy’s pants.
Jordy’d wiggle and scratch
But Isaac attached
Himself with coagulants.

Uncle Isaac ignored his niece, Judy,
Who didn’t have quite the same booty.
So Judy was spared,
And stood there and stared,
While Jordy got it in the patootie.

When Jordy went on Price is Right
His bung-hole shown like a nightlight.
He said it was Uncle
Ike and Garfuckles
Who implanted in him a Lite-Brite.

Uncle Isaac hosted family for Easter.
He told his sister he’d feast her.
They ate honey baked ham
And rack of young lamb
While Isaac dined on Jordy’s keister.

Isaac Chased Jordan Chasescott
From when he was just a young tot.
Isaac gave him a ball
and that wasn’t all,
for his undies had X marks the spot.

Uncle Isaac would pat Jordy’s buttock
And soothe him to sleep with some smut talk.
As Joey took vids
And entertained bids,
Little Jordy’s cradle would rock.

Uncle Isaac said let’s play Cowboys,
For riding is one of my joys.
I’ll be Roy, you’ll be Trigger,
As we gallop with vigor,
And Jordy, you’ll make whinny noise.

On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 11:03:00 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 10:42:43 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 5:03:42 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 5:14:33 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> >> > > George J. Dance wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > My Father's House
> >> > > >
> >> > > > This is my father's house, although
> >> > > > The man died thirteen years ago.
> >> > > > They said it would be quite all right
> >> > > > To take a drive to see it now.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> >> > > > And built the whole thing (from a box),
> >> > > > Toiling after each full day's work.
> >> > > > I helped, though I was only six.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Look, here's the back door I would use
> >> > > > And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> >> > > > To enter; there I'd leave my things
> >> > > > And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> >> > > > Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> >> > > > To be so many other places.
> >> > > > (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Outside, the garden that he grew
> >> > > > Where I would work the summers through,
> >> > > > While watching my friends run and play
> >> > > > Mysterious games I never knew.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> >> > > > The one chair I was let to sit?
> >> > > > (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> >> > > > Which, the corner where boys were put?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> >> > > > Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> >> > > > After the meal, to make no noise,
> >> > > > To read or play alone, and then
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> >> > > > Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> >> > > > Face and pyjama bottoms down
> >> > > > As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Oh, if I were a millionaire
> >> > > > I'd buy my father's house, and there
> >> > > > I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> >> > > > Its flames would light up all the air.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ~~
> >> > > > George J. Dance
> >> > > > from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> >> > > Outstanding poem and at an all time high of reader interest for this group, just look at all the spin offs...!!
> >> > Yeah! At least 30 OB poems from the Chimp alone. That must be a record.
> >> Even Dennis M Hammes didn't go that far over the edge.
>
> > Dennis Hammes didn't have Jim's audience.
> An audience of thugs and trolls.
>
> We know.

The scumbags seem proud of their low level....ha ha.

On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 9:14:00 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 5:03:42 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 5:14:33 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> > > George J. Dance wrote:
> > > >
> > > > My Father's House
> > > >
> > > > This is my father's house, although
> > > > The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > > They said it would be quite all right
> > > > To take a drive to see it now.
> > > >
> > > > Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > > And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > > Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > > I helped, though I was only six.
> > > >
> > > > Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > > And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > > To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > > And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > > >
> > > > In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > > Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > > To be so many other places.
> > > > (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > > >
> > > > Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > > Where I would work the summers through,
> > > > While watching my friends run and play
> > > > Mysterious games I never knew.
> > > >
> > > > That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > > The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > > (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > > Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > > >
> > > > Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > > Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > > After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > > To read or play alone, and then
> > > >
> > > > Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > > Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > > Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > > As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > > >
> > > > Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > > I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > > I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > > Its flames would light up all the air.
> > > >
> > > > ~~
> > > > George J. Dance
> > > > from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > > Outstanding poem and at an all time high of reader interest for this group, just look at all the spin offs...!!
> > Yeah! At least 30 OB poems from the Chimp alone. That must be a record.
> So... an illiterate pissbum tells you that the various parodies of your poem are "spin offs".... and you are desperate enough to play along?
>
> Are you really *that* needy, George?

My own descriptor for Mr. Chimp's "parodies" would be "Kookout" - but I have no objection to Zod's term.

On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 4:49:01 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
> On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 9:14:00 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 5:03:42 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 5:14:33 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> > > > George J. Dance wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > My Father's House
> > > > >
> > > > > This is my father's house, although
> > > > > The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > > > They said it would be quite all right
> > > > > To take a drive to see it now.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > > > And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > > > Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > > > I helped, though I was only six.
> > > > >
> > > > > Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > > > And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > > > To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > > > And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > > > >
> > > > > In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > > > Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > > > To be so many other places.
> > > > > (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > > > >
> > > > > Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > > > Where I would work the summers through,
> > > > > While watching my friends run and play
> > > > > Mysterious games I never knew.
> > > > >
> > > > > That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > > > The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > > > (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > > > Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > > > Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > > > After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > > > To read or play alone, and then
> > > > >
> > > > > Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > > > Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > > > Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > > > As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > > > I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > > > I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > > > Its flames would light up all the air.
> > > > >
> > > > > ~~
> > > > > George J. Dance
> > > > > from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > > > Outstanding poem and at an all time high of reader interest for this group, just look at all the spin offs...!!
> > > Yeah! At least 30 OB poems from the Chimp alone. That must be a record.
> > So... an illiterate pissbum tells you that the various parodies of your poem are "spin offs".... and you are desperate enough to play along?
> >
> > Are you really *that* needy, George?
> My own descriptor for Mr. Chimp's "parodies" would be "Kookout" - but I have no objection to Zod's term.

Looks like a mass meltdown for the trolls is on the way.

:)

George Dance wrote:

> On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 9:14:00 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 5:03:42 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 5:14:33 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
>> > > George J. Dance wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > My Father's House
>> > > >
>> > > > This is my father's house, although
>> > > > The man died thirteen years ago.
>> > > > They said it would be quite all right
>> > > > To take a drive to see it now.
>> > > >
>> > > > Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>> > > > And built the whole thing (from a box),
>> > > > Toiling after each full day's work.
>> > > > I helped, though I was only six.
>> > > >
>> > > > Look, here's the back door I would use
>> > > > And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>> > > > To enter; there I'd leave my things
>> > > > And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>> > > >
>> > > > In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>> > > > Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>> > > > To be so many other places.
>> > > > (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>> > > >
>> > > > Outside, the garden that he grew
>> > > > Where I would work the summers through,
>> > > > While watching my friends run and play
>> > > > Mysterious games I never knew.
>> > > >
>> > > > That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>> > > > The one chair I was let to sit?
>> > > > (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>> > > > Which, the corner where boys were put?
>> > > >
>> > > > Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>> > > > Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>> > > > After the meal, to make no noise,
>> > > > To read or play alone, and then
>> > > >
>> > > > Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>> > > > Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>> > > > Face and pyjama bottoms down
>> > > > As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>> > > >
>> > > > Oh, if I were a millionaire
>> > > > I'd buy my father's house, and there
>> > > > I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>> > > > Its flames would light up all the air.
>> > > >
>> > > > ~~
>> > > > George J. Dance
>> > > > from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>> > > Outstanding poem and at an all time high of reader interest for this group, just look at all the spin offs...!!
>> > Yeah! At least 30 OB poems from the Chimp alone. That must be a record.
>> So... an illiterate pissbum tells you that the various parodies of your poem are "spin offs".... and you are desperate enough to play along?
>>
>> Are you really *that* needy, George?

> My own descriptor for Mr. Chimp's "parodies" would be "Kookout" - but I have no objection to Zod's term.

Hello G.D.

I thank....

On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 9:33:05 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > IME, children don't break rules in front of their parents or otherwise let their parents know they're breaking them (which is necessary for punishment to result, and therefore necessary for a child to "know that a physical punishment will be the result."
> >
> But your experience (based on the depiction of your childhood in your poem) is not in keeping with the norm. If I got angry with one of my siblings, I hit them (and vice versa). I didn't care who was looking. A child hasn't the emotional resources to control his anger.
>
> And when one of my parents attempted to punish me as a result, I ran, and when caught, fought back against, my parent. This, too, was an emotional response comprising elements of both anger and fear.

That doesn't sound like me or any of the children I knew. My sister and I did fight, over the years, and might have intentionally broken the other's things (I don't remember), but we didn't involve our parents; we certainly didn't act that way in front of them. front of our parents. The two boys who lived next door fought a lot, and I fought with each of them now and then, mainly just play wrestling but soometimes more serious, but again it was something we didn't involve our parents in. The family you're describing to me sounds more dysfunctional than normal.

> > Rather, they try to minimize that by changing their own behavior, and even adopting rules (like confidentiality) of their own. Given a child's wants -- to break a rule and to not be punished -- such behavior looks perfectly rational.
> >
> Children can be deceitful, but since they often get away with it, and are therefore not punished for it, it doesn't really apply.
>
> We are talking about when a child gets punished, and in order to get punished a child must get caught. Again, children have difficulty controlling their anger, and it is generally behavioral issues stemming from anger that children are punished for (hitting a sibling, stealing or intentionally breaking a sibling's toy, taunting a sibling to tears, etc. These acts are not premeditated and the child lacks the necessary self-restraint to avoid them through behavioral modification.

2- to 4-year-olds; but by the time a child goes to school they've learned they can't just act at whim on their emotions whenever they want. There are house rules, and school rules, that they have to take into account (which doesn't mean always following them). They have to think about their behavior, and, increasingly as they grow up, to discipline it. I don't think you or your siblings were incapable of doing that; you just hadn't learned it for some reason.

> > OTOH, breaking a rule, getting caught, and trying to escape punishment by fighting one's father, does not look rational. That is the point.
> It is not rational. As I've already stated, if children were always rational, they wouldn't repeatedly break the rules when they knew that punishment was the result.
>
> Children are incapable of rationality during moments of emotional excitement (anger). When one's siblings stick out their tongues and repeatedly chant "Nyah nyah nyah na na," even the most rational child can only hold out for so long.
> > I cannot imagine anyone with even a spark of willpower resigning themselves quietly and complacently to whippings on a regular basis.
> > It sounds like you don't understand the idea of "willpower". Fight and flight are fear-based, emotional reactions that come from the animal brain, not the will. It doesn't take any willpower to give in to them. It does take willpower to *not* give in to them.
> >
> I was using "willpower" in accordance with the Nietzschean concept of Will to Power, which an Ayn Rand disciple like yourself should have readily understood.

I remember Rand mentioning it in a book I no longer have (FNI), and I was able to find the quote online:

'Nietzsche’s rebellion against altruism consisted of replacing the sacrifice of oneself to others by the sacrifice of others to oneself. He proclaimed that the ideal man is moved, not by reason, but by his “blood,” by his innate instincts, feelings and will to power — that he is predestined by birth to rule others and sacrifice them to himself, while they are predestined by birth to be his victims and slaves — that reason, logic, principles are futile and debilitating, that morality is useless, that the “superman” is “beyond good and evil,” that he is a “beast of prey” whose ultimate standard is nothing but his own whim.'
“For the New Intellectual,” /For the New Intellectual/, 36
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/nietzsche,_friedrich.html

> As a six-year old boy, your Will to Power had long been beaten out of you by your father.

A minor point, which I have to clarify: my father wasn't using a belt on me that young; that happened, IIRC, when I was 8-12. But, yeah I never got the idea I was a superman and others were my prey, at 6, 12, or anytime since.. You see that as a bad thing?

> > > > Yes, there are exceptions, but I don't see my family as one. I certainly didn't like everything my father made me do, but he wasn't there to be my friend; he was there to look after me before I was a man, and to teach me what I needed for when I became one. I don't see any of his behavior as sadistic or predatory, or anything else that would need to be rationalized..
> >
> > > As I said, you wouldn't see it as an exception because it was *your* normality -- a situation that you were born into. Those of us on the outside looking in, see it as extremely abusive.
> > Of course You think it's normal to fight with one's father and be beaten into submission because that was your "normality" as as a preteen (as irrational and abusive as itt may sound to others).
> You're attempting to confuse the issue of normal childhood behavior with that of abusive parents. My father was abusive. My response to his abusiveness with normal.

> > > > I'm comfortable with my actions as a child, and I'm comfortable with my father's as a father. I'm sorry if that disturbs you, but that's th[e w]ay it is.
> >
> > > If you're comfortable with them, you've no need to convince me or my colleague of their normalcy. Nor need you entertain fantasies of burning your father's house to the ground.

> > Where did you get the idea that I expect to "convince" either you or NastyGoon? You have your own childhood, of unnamed punishments, fighting with your father, and constantly being beaten into submission, and that's your normality. .
> >
> I got that idea from your having obsessively argued the point ("The lady doth protest too much, methinks.").

As I've pointed out, you've posted more on your "interpretations" of the poem than I have. Most of what you've written has been claims you've made about both the poem and its author. Do you have a problem with me discussing your theories?

On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 7:40:15 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 9:33:05 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > IME, children don't break rules in front of their parents or otherwise let their parents know they're breaking them (which is necessary for punishment to result, and therefore necessary for a child to "know that a physical punishment will be the result."
> > >
> > But your experience (based on the depiction of your childhood in your poem) is not in keeping with the norm. If I got angry with one of my siblings, I hit them (and vice versa). I didn't care who was looking. A child hasn't the emotional resources to control his anger.
> >
> > And when one of my parents attempted to punish me as a result, I ran, and when caught, fought back against, my parent. This, too, was an emotional response comprising elements of both anger and fear.
> That doesn't sound like me or any of the children I knew. My sister and I did fight, over the years, and might have intentionally broken the other's things (I don't remember), but we didn't involve our parents; we certainly didn't act that way in front of them. front of our parents. The two boys who lived next door fought a lot, and I fought with each of them now and then, mainly just play wrestling but soometimes more serious, but again it was something we didn't involve our parents in. The family you're describing to me sounds more dysfunctional than normal.
>

Whether my family was dysfunctional is not the issue.

If my siblings made fun of me (I had a weight problem as a child), the fat jokes would hurt me, and I would get angry and hit them: in order to a) make them stop, and b) to hurt them back (Tit for Tat).

A child who is experiencing feelings of hurt and anger is not going to rationalize his situation and opt to restrain himself out of fear of the inevitable punishment.

> > > Rather, they try to minimize that by changing their own behavior, and even adopting rules (like confidentiality) of their own. Given a child's wants -- to break a rule and to not be punished -- such behavior looks perfectly rational.
> > >
> > Children can be deceitful, but since they often get away with it, and are therefore not punished for it, it doesn't really apply.
> >
> > We are talking about when a child gets punished, and in order to get punished a child must get caught. Again, children have difficulty controlling their anger, and it is generally behavioral issues stemming from anger that children are punished for (hitting a sibling, stealing or intentionally breaking a sibling's toy, taunting a sibling to tears, etc. These acts are not premeditated and the child lacks the necessary self-restraint to avoid them through behavioral modification.
> 2- to 4-year-olds; but by the time a child goes to school they've learned they can't just act at whim on their emotions whenever they want. There are house rules, and school rules, that they have to take into account (which doesn't mean always following them). They have to think about their behavior, and, increasingly as they grow up, to discipline it. I don't think you or your siblings were incapable of doing that; you just hadn't learned it for some reason.
>

Um... no.

Where are you getting this information from?

Children in playgroups (ages 2-4) get into fights, throw tantrums, scribble on each other's drawings, call each other names, etc.

> > OTOH, breaking a rule, getting caught, and trying to escape punishment by fighting one's father, does not look rational. That is the point.
> > It is not rational. As I've already stated, if children were always rational, they wouldn't repeatedly break the rules when they knew that punishment was the result.
> >
> > Children are incapable of rationality during moments of emotional excitement (anger). When one's siblings stick out their tongues and repeatedly chant "Nyah nyah nyah na na," even the most rational child can only hold out for so long.
> > > I cannot imagine anyone with even a spark of willpower resigning themselves quietly and complacently to whippings on a regular basis.
> > > It sounds like you don't understand the idea of "willpower". Fight and flight are fear-based, emotional reactions that come from the animal brain, not the will. It doesn't take any willpower to give in to them. It does take willpower to *not* give in to them.
> > >
> > I was using "willpower" in accordance with the Nietzschean concept of Will to Power, which an Ayn Rand disciple like yourself should have readily understood.
> I remember Rand mentioning it in a book I no longer have (FNI), and I was able to find the quote online:
>
> 'Nietzsche’s rebellion against altruism consisted of replacing the sacrifice of oneself to others by the sacrifice of others to oneself. He proclaimed that the ideal man is moved, not by reason, but by his “blood,” by his innate instincts, feelings and will to power — that he is predestined by birth to rule others and sacrifice them to himself, while they are predestined by birth to be his victims and slaves — that reason, logic, principles are futile and debilitating, that morality is useless, that the “superman” is “beyond good and evil,” that he is a “beast of prey” whose ultimate standard is nothing but his own whim.'
> “For the New Intellectual,” /For the New Intellectual/, 36
> http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/nietzsche,_friedrich.html

Very good.

Ayn's a little over-the-top in her explanation (Nietzsche doesn't read as being quite so bloodthirsty as her description), but that's the gist of it.

Would a boy whose Will to Power was intact obediently submit himself to punishment?

> > As a six-year old boy, your Will to Power had long been beaten out of you by your father.
> A minor point, which I have to clarify: my father wasn't using a belt on me that young; that happened, IIRC, when I was 8-12. But, yeah I never got the idea I was a superman and others were my prey, at 6, 12, or anytime since. You see that as a bad thing?
>

Yes.

In a more primitive society, you would not have survived to adulthood.

> > > > > Yes, there are exceptions, but I don't see my family as one. I certainly didn't like everything my father made me do, but he wasn't there to be my friend; he was there to look after me before I was a man, and to teach me what I needed for when I became one. I don't see any of his behavior as sadistic or predatory, or anything else that would need to be rationalized.
> > >
> > > > As I said, you wouldn't see it as an exception because it was *your* normality -- a situation that you were born into. Those of us on the outside looking in, see it as extremely abusive.
> > > Of course You think it's normal to fight with one's father and be beaten into submission because that was your "normality" as as a preteen (as irrational and abusive as itt may sound to others).
> > You're attempting to confuse the issue of normal childhood behavior with that of abusive parents. My father was abusive. My response to his abusiveness with normal.
> > > > > I'm comfortable with my actions as a child, and I'm comfortable with my father's as a father. I'm sorry if that disturbs you, but that's th[e w]ay it is.
> > >
> > > > If you're comfortable with them, you've no need to convince me or my colleague of their normalcy. Nor need you entertain fantasies of burning your father's house to the ground.
> > > Where did you get the idea that I expect to "convince" either you or NastyGoon? You have your own childhood, of unnamed punishments, fighting with your father, and constantly being beaten into submission, and that's your normality. .
> > >
> > I got that idea from your having obsessively argued the point ("The lady doth protest too much, methinks.").
> As I've pointed out, you've posted more on your "interpretations" of the poem than I have. Most of what you've written has been claims you've made about both the poem and its author. Do you have a problem with me discussing your theories?
>

I post my theories for purposes of discussion.

George Dance wrote:

> On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 9:33:05 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> > IME, children don't break rules in front of their parents or otherwise let their parents know they're breaking them (which is necessary for punishment to result, and therefore necessary for a child to "know that a physical punishment will be the result."
>> >
>> But your experience (based on the depiction of your childhood in your poem) is not in keeping with the norm. If I got angry with one of my siblings, I hit them (and vice versa). I didn't care who was looking. A child hasn't the emotional resources to control his anger.
>>
>> And when one of my parents attempted to punish me as a result, I ran, and when caught, fought back against, my parent. This, too, was an emotional response comprising elements of both anger and fear.

> That doesn't sound like me or any of the children I knew. My sister and I did fight, over the years, and might have intentionally broken the other's things (I don't remember), but we didn't involve our parents; we certainly didn't act that way in front of them. front of our parents. The two boys who lived next door fought a lot, and I fought with each of them now and then, mainly just play wrestling but soometimes more serious, but again it was something we didn't involve our parents in. The family you're describing to me sounds more dysfunctional than normal.

>> > Rather, they try to minimize that by changing their own behavior, and even adopting rules (like confidentiality) of their own. Given a child's wants -- to break a rule and to not be punished -- such behavior looks perfectly rational.
>> >
>> Children can be deceitful, but since they often get away with it, and are therefore not punished for it, it doesn't really apply.
>>
>> We are talking about when a child gets punished, and in order to get punished a child must get caught. Again, children have difficulty controlling their anger, and it is generally behavioral issues stemming from anger that children are punished for (hitting a sibling, stealing or intentionally breaking a sibling's toy, taunting a sibling to tears, etc. These acts are not premeditated and the child lacks the necessary self-restraint to avoid them through behavioral modification.

> 2- to 4-year-olds; but by the time a child goes to school they've learned they can't just act at whim on their emotions whenever they want. There are house rules, and school rules, that they have to take into account (which doesn't mean always following them). They have to think about their behavior, and, increasingly as they grow up, to discipline it. I don't think you or your siblings were incapable of doing that; you just hadn't learned it for some reason.

>> > OTOH, breaking a rule, getting caught, and trying to escape punishment by fighting one's father, does not look rational. That is the point.
>> It is not rational. As I've already stated, if children were always rational, they wouldn't repeatedly break the rules when they knew that punishment was the result.
>>
>> Children are incapable of rationality during moments of emotional excitement (anger). When one's siblings stick out their tongues and repeatedly chant "Nyah nyah nyah na na," even the most rational child can only hold out for so long.
> > > I cannot imagine anyone with even a spark of willpower resigning themselves quietly and complacently to whippings on a regular basis.
>> > It sounds like you don't understand the idea of "willpower". Fight and flight are fear-based, emotional reactions that come from the animal brain, not the will. It doesn't take any willpower to give in to them. It does take willpower to *not* give in to them.
>> >
>> I was using "willpower" in accordance with the Nietzschean concept of Will to Power, which an Ayn Rand disciple like yourself should have readily understood.

> I remember Rand mentioning it in a book I no longer have (FNI), and I was able to find the quote online:

> 'Nietzsche’s rebellion against altruism consisted of replacing the sacrifice of oneself to others by the sacrifice of others to oneself. He proclaimed that the ideal man is moved, not by reason, but by his “blood,” by his innate instincts, feelings and will to power — that he is predestined by birth to rule others and sacrifice them to himself, while they are predestined by birth to be his victims and slaves — that reason, logic, principles are futile and debilitating, that morality is useless, that the “superman” is “beyond good and evil,” that he is a “beast of prey” whose ultimate standard is nothing but his own whim.'
> “For the New Intellectual,” /For the New Intellectual/, 36
> http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/nietzsche,_friedrich.html

>> As a six-year old boy, your Will to Power had long been beaten out of you by your father.

> A minor point, which I have to clarify: my father wasn't using a belt on me that young; that happened, IIRC, when I was 8-12. But, yeah I never got the idea I was a superman and others were my prey, at 6, 12, or anytime since.. You see that as a bad thing?

>> > > > Yes, there are exceptions, but I don't see my family as one. I certainly didn't like everything my father made me do, but he wasn't there to be my friend; he was there to look after me before I was a man, and to teach me what I needed for when I became one. I don't see any of his behavior as sadistic or predatory, or anything else that would need to be rationalized..
>> >
>> > > As I said, you wouldn't see it as an exception because it was *your* normality -- a situation that you were born into. Those of us on the outside looking in, see it as extremely abusive.
>> > Of course You think it's normal to fight with one's father and be beaten into submission because that was your "normality" as as a preteen (as irrational and abusive as itt may sound to others).
>> You're attempting to confuse the issue of normal childhood behavior with that of abusive parents. My father was abusive. My response to his abusiveness with normal.

>> > > > I'm comfortable with my actions as a child, and I'm comfortable with my father's as a father. I'm sorry if that disturbs you, but that's th[e w]ay it is.
>> >
>> > > If you're comfortable with them, you've no need to convince me or my colleague of their normalcy. Nor need you entertain fantasies of burning your father's house to the ground.

>> > Where did you get the idea that I expect to "convince" either you or NastyGoon? You have your own childhood, of unnamed punishments, fighting with your father, and constantly being beaten into submission, and that's your normality. .
>> >
>> I got that idea from your having obsessively argued the point ("The lady doth protest too much, methinks.").

> As I've pointed out, you've posted more on your "interpretations" of the poem than I have. Most of what you've written has been claims you've made about both the poem and its author. Do you have a problem with me discussing your theories?

Good to see you have set the record straight, G.D.

On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 10:40:45 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 7:40:15 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 9:33:05 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > >
> > > But your experience (based on the depiction of your childhood in your poem) is not in keeping with the norm. If I got angry with one of my siblings, I hit them (and vice versa). I didn't care who was looking. A child hasn't the emotional resources to control his anger.
> > >
> > > And when one of my parents attempted to punish me as a result, I ran, and when caught, fought back against, my parent. This, too, was an emotional response comprising elements of both anger and fear.
> > That doesn't sound like me or any of the children I knew. My sister and I did fight, over the years, and might have intentionally broken the other's things (I don't remember), but we didn't involve our parents; we certainly didn't act that way in front of them. front of our parents. The two boys who lived next door fought a lot, and I fought with each of them now and then, mainly just play wrestling but soometimes more serious, but again it was something we didn't involve our parents in. The family you're describing to me sounds more dysfunctional than normal.
> >
> Whether my family was dysfunctional is not the issue.

No, what's at issue is whether it was "the norm". You're claiming that the strict discipline I was raised under (and my acceptance of that) was abnormal, going so far as to call it "a hellhole of abuse" -- and your only
reason is that it wasn't like your family experience. I'd say that your experience was abnormal, while mine (while perhaps stricter than some) was quite normal for the time, and so was my acceptance of it.

> If my siblings made fun of me (I had a weight problem as a child), the fat jokes would hurt me, and I would get angry and hit them: in order to a) make them stop, and b) to hurt them back (Tit for Tat).

You weren't playing "Tit for Tat" -- hitting someone because they called you a name is way out of proportion.
It looks to me like you were trying to discipline them, instinctively by hitting them, because you're parents weren't maintaining discipline. Rest assured, if I or my sister had teased each other or any other child for their physical appearance, in front of my parents, we'd have been punished; probably not with the belt, more likely with a timeout in our own room. It sounds to me like your siblings needed some discipline, that for whatever reason your parents hadn't been able to teach them any
> A child who is experiencing feelings of hurt and anger is not going to rationalize his situation and opt to restrain himself out of fear of the inevitable punishment.

I wouldn't call your behavior irrational in the situation; I'd say you were acting dysfunctionally in response to a dysfunctional environment. It sounds to me like you knew the problem (lack of discipline), and were instinctively trying to correct it. It may have been at that point that you began seeing yourself as a "parent figure".

> > > > Rather, they try to minimize that by changing their own behavior, and even adopting rules (like confidentiality) of their own. Given a child's wants -- to break a rule and to not be punished -- such behavior looks perfectly rational.
> > > >
> > > Children can be deceitful, but since they often get away with it, and are therefore not punished for it, it doesn't really apply.
> > >
> > > We are talking about when a child gets punished, and in order to get punished a child must get caught. Again, children have difficulty controlling their anger, and it is generally behavioral issues stemming from anger that children are punished for (hitting a sibling, stealing or intentionally breaking a sibling's toy, taunting a sibling to tears, etc. These acts are not premeditated and the child lacks the necessary self-restraint to avoid them through behavioral modification.
> > 2- to 4-year-olds; but by the time a child goes to school they've learned they can't just act at whim on their emotions whenever they want. There are house rules, and school rules, that they have to take into account (which doesn't mean always following them). They have to think about their behavior, and, increasingly as they grow up, to discipline it. I don't think you or your siblings were incapable of doing that; you just hadn't learned it for some reason.
> >
> Um... no.
>
> Where are you getting this information from?
>
> Children in playgroups (ages 2-4) get into fights, throw tantrums, scribble on each other's drawings, call each other names, etc.

Like I just said: "2- to 4-year-olds; but by the time a child goes to school they've learned they can't just act at whim on their emotions whenever they want." Look at a bunch of 6-8-year-olds in a playground, and you'll see far less if any of that. Look at a bunch of 10-12-year-olds and you won't see any. Children are rational, and capable of learning to be human; they just need proper instruction.

> > > OTOH, breaking a rule, getting caught, and trying to escape punishment by fighting one's father, does not look rational. That is the point.
> > > It is not rational. As I've already stated, if children were always rational, they wouldn't repeatedly break the rules when they knew that punishment was the result.

I didn't; and I don't know any children who did. It's normal for children to break rules (like hitting or teasing); it is not normal for them to do so in front fo their parents.

> > > > I cannot imagine anyone with even a spark of willpower resigning themselves quietly and complacently to whippings on a regular basis.
> > > > It sounds like you don't understand the idea of "willpower". Fight and flight are fear-based, emotional reactions that come from the animal brain, not the will. It doesn't take any willpower to give in to them. It does take willpower to *not* give in to them.
> > > >
> > > I was using "willpower" in accordance with the Nietzschean concept of Will to Power, which an Ayn Rand disciple like yourself should have readily understood.
> > I remember Rand mentioning it in a book I no longer have (FNI), and I was able to find the quote online:
> >
> > 'Nietzsche’s rebellion against altruism consisted of replacing the sacrifice of oneself to others by the sacrifice of others to oneself. He proclaimed that the ideal man is moved, not by reason, but by his “blood,” by his innate instincts, feelings and will to power — that he is predestined by birth to rule others and sacrifice them to himself, while they are predestined by birth to be his victims and slaves — that reason, logic, principles are futile and debilitating, that morality is useless, that the “superman” is “beyond good and evil,” that he is a “beast of prey” whose ultimate standard is nothing but his own whim.'
> > “For the New Intellectual,” /For the New Intellectual/, 36
> > http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/nietzsche,_friedrich.html
> Very good.
>
> Ayn's a little over-the-top in her explanation (Nietzsche doesn't read as being quite so bloodthirsty as her description), but that's the gist of it..

Thank you very much for that. As I consider you a Nietzschean or at least a sympathizer, I'd say that's evidence that Rand's description passes what Bryan Caplan calls the "ideological Turing Test" -- it's no differnet from what a Nietzschean sympathizer would say.

Now here's my take on the above, which won't pass that test -- Nietzsche's "ideal man" sounds like that 2-4-year-old child, going around smashing others' toys, scribbling on their drawings, calling them names, and hitting them. But he's grown up, and he can't use the defense that he doesn't know how to be rational and behave. So Nietzsche gives him a new defense: he doesn't have to be rational or behave. He's no longer a spoiled child, but an "ideal man" expressing his Will to Power" -- even though he's acting like a spoiled child.

> Would a boy whose Will to Power was intact obediently submit himself to punishment?

A spoiled child would not have. I wasn't one, and all things considered I don't regret it.

> > > As a six-year old boy, your Will to Power had long been beaten out of you by your father.
> > A minor point, which I have to clarify: my father wasn't using a belt on me that young; that happened, IIRC, when I was 8-12. But, yeah I never got the idea I was a superman and others were my prey, at 6, 12, or anytime since. You see that as a bad thing?
> >
> Yes.

Noted.

>
> In a more primitive society, you would not have survived to adulthood.

Historical revisionism. In a more primitive society, if you'd fought with your father when he'd tried to punish you, he could have legally killed you. Even if he hadn't, when you gone off into the world, you'd probably have been killed by someone else (lord, priest, whatever) whom you'd have also decided to fight rather than submit.

George Dance wrote:

> On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 10:40:45 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 7:40:15 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 9:33:05 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
>> > > But your experience (based on the depiction of your childhood in your poem) is not in keeping with the norm. If I got angry with one of my siblings, I hit them (and vice versa). I didn't care who was looking. A child hasn't the emotional resources to control his anger.
>> > >
>> > > And when one of my parents attempted to punish me as a result, I ran, and when caught, fought back against, my parent. This, too, was an emotional response comprising elements of both anger and fear.
>> > That doesn't sound like me or any of the children I knew. My sister and I did fight, over the years, and might have intentionally broken the other's things (I don't remember), but we didn't involve our parents; we certainly didn't act that way in front of them. front of our parents. The two boys who lived next door fought a lot, and I fought with each of them now and then, mainly just play wrestling but soometimes more serious, but again it was something we didn't involve our parents in. The family you're describing to me sounds more dysfunctional than normal.
>> >
>> Whether my family was dysfunctional is not the issue.

> No, what's at issue is whether it was "the norm". You're claiming that the strict discipline I was raised under (and my acceptance of that) was abnormal, going so far as to call it "a hellhole of abuse" -- and your only
> reason is that it wasn't like your family experience. I'd say that your experience was abnormal, while mine (while perhaps stricter than some) was quite normal for the time, and so was my acceptance of it.

>> If my siblings made fun of me (I had a weight problem as a child), the fat jokes would hurt me, and I would get angry and hit them: in order to a) make them stop, and b) to hurt them back (Tit for Tat).

> You weren't playing "Tit for Tat" -- hitting someone because they called you a name is way out of proportion.
> It looks to me like you were trying to discipline them, instinctively by hitting them, because you're parents weren't maintaining discipline. Rest assured, if I or my sister had teased each other or any other child for their physical appearance, in front of my parents, we'd have been punished; probably not with the belt, more likely with a timeout in our own room. It sounds to me like your siblings needed some discipline, that for whatever reason your parents hadn't been able to teach them any

>> A child who is experiencing feelings of hurt and anger is not going to rationalize his situation and opt to restrain himself out of fear of the inevitable punishment.

> I wouldn't call your behavior irrational in the situation; I'd say you were acting dysfunctionally in response to a dysfunctional environment. It sounds to me like you knew the problem (lack of discipline), and were instinctively trying to correct it. It may have been at that point that you began seeing yourself as a "parent figure".

>> > > > Rather, they try to minimize that by changing their own behavior, and even adopting rules (like confidentiality) of their own. Given a child's wants -- to break a rule and to not be punished -- such behavior looks perfectly rational.
>> > > >
>> > > Children can be deceitful, but since they often get away with it, and are therefore not punished for it, it doesn't really apply.
>> > >
>> > > We are talking about when a child gets punished, and in order to get punished a child must get caught. Again, children have difficulty controlling their anger, and it is generally behavioral issues stemming from anger that children are punished for (hitting a sibling, stealing or intentionally breaking a sibling's toy, taunting a sibling to tears, etc. These acts are not premeditated and the child lacks the necessary self-restraint to avoid them through behavioral modification.
>> > 2- to 4-year-olds; but by the time a child goes to school they've learned they can't just act at whim on their emotions whenever they want. There are house rules, and school rules, that they have to take into account (which doesn't mean always following them). They have to think about their behavior, and, increasingly as they grow up, to discipline it. I don't think you or your siblings were incapable of doing that; you just hadn't learned it for some reason.
>> >
>> Um... no.
>>
>> Where are you getting this information from?
>>
>> Children in playgroups (ages 2-4) get into fights, throw tantrums, scribble on each other's drawings, call each other names, etc.

> Like I just said: "2- to 4-year-olds; but by the time a child goes to school they've learned they can't just act at whim on their emotions whenever they want." Look at a bunch of 6-8-year-olds in a playground, and you'll see far less if any of that. Look at a bunch of 10-12-year-olds and you won't see any. Children are rational, and capable of learning to be human; they just need proper instruction.

>> > > OTOH, breaking a rule, getting caught, and trying to escape punishment by fighting one's father, does not look rational. That is the point.
>> > > It is not rational. As I've already stated, if children were always rational, they wouldn't repeatedly break the rules when they knew that punishment was the result.

> I didn't; and I don't know any children who did. It's normal for children to break rules (like hitting or teasing); it is not normal for them to do so in front fo their parents.

>> > > > I cannot imagine anyone with even a spark of willpower resigning themselves quietly and complacently to whippings on a regular basis.
>> > > > It sounds like you don't understand the idea of "willpower". Fight and flight are fear-based, emotional reactions that come from the animal brain, not the will. It doesn't take any willpower to give in to them. It does take willpower to *not* give in to them.
>> > > >
>> > > I was using "willpower" in accordance with the Nietzschean concept of Will to Power, which an Ayn Rand disciple like yourself should have readily understood.
>> > I remember Rand mentioning it in a book I no longer have (FNI), and I was able to find the quote online:
>> >
>> > 'Nietzsche’s rebellion against altruism consisted of replacing the sacrifice of oneself to others by the sacrifice of others to oneself. He proclaimed that the ideal man is moved, not by reason, but by his “blood,” by his innate instincts, feelings and will to power — that he is predestined by birth to rule others and sacrifice them to himself, while they are predestined by birth to be his victims and slaves — that reason, logic, principles are futile and debilitating, that morality is useless, that the “superman” is “beyond good and evil,” that he is a “beast of prey” whose ultimate standard is nothing but his own whim.'
>> > “For the New Intellectual,” /For the New Intellectual/, 36
>> > http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/nietzsche,_friedrich.html
>> Very good.
>>
>> Ayn's a little over-the-top in her explanation (Nietzsche doesn't read as being quite so bloodthirsty as her description), but that's the gist of it..

> Thank you very much for that. As I consider you a Nietzschean or at least a sympathizer, I'd say that's evidence that Rand's description passes what Bryan Caplan calls the "ideological Turing Test" -- it's no differnet from what a Nietzschean sympathizer would say.

> Now here's my take on the above, which won't pass that test -- Nietzsche's "ideal man" sounds like that 2-4-year-old child, going around smashing others' toys, scribbling on their drawings, calling them names, and hitting them. But he's grown up, and he can't use the defense that he doesn't know how to be rational and behave. So Nietzsche gives him a new defense: he doesn't have to be rational or behave. He's no longer a spoiled child, but an "ideal man" expressing his Will to Power" -- even though he's acting like a spoiled child.

>> Would a boy whose Will to Power was intact obediently submit himself to punishment?

> A spoiled child would not have. I wasn't one, and all things considered I don't regret it.

>> > > As a six-year old boy, your Will to Power had long been beaten out of you by your father.
>> > A minor point, which I have to clarify: my father wasn't using a belt on me that young; that happened, IIRC, when I was 8-12. But, yeah I never got the idea I was a superman and others were my prey, at 6, 12, or anytime since. You see that as a bad thing?
>> >
>> Yes.

> Noted.

>>
>> In a more primitive society, you would not have survived to adulthood.

> Historical revisionism. In a more primitive society, if you'd fought with your father when he'd tried to punish you, he could have legally killed you. Even if he hadn't, when you gone off into the world, you'd probably have been killed by someone else (lord, priest, whatever) whom you'd have also decided to fight rather than submit.

On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:27:31 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
> On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 10:40:45 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 7:40:15 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 9:33:05 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > But your experience (based on the depiction of your childhood in your poem) is not in keeping with the norm. If I got angry with one of my siblings, I hit them (and vice versa). I didn't care who was looking. A child hasn't the emotional resources to control his anger.
> > > >
> > > > And when one of my parents attempted to punish me as a result, I ran, and when caught, fought back against, my parent. This, too, was an emotional response comprising elements of both anger and fear.
> > > That doesn't sound like me or any of the children I knew. My sister and I did fight, over the years, and might have intentionally broken the other's things (I don't remember), but we didn't involve our parents; we certainly didn't act that way in front of them. front of our parents. The two boys who lived next door fought a lot, and I fought with each of them now and then, mainly just play wrestling but soometimes more serious, but again it was something we didn't involve our parents in. The family you're describing to me sounds more dysfunctional than normal.
> > >
> > Whether my family was dysfunctional is not the issue.
> No, what's at issue is whether it was "the norm". You're claiming that the strict discipline I was raised under (and my acceptance of that) was abnormal, going so far as to call it "a hellhole of abuse" -- and your only
> reason is that it wasn't like your family experience. I'd say that your experience was abnormal, while mine (while perhaps stricter than some) was quite normal for the time, and so was my acceptance of it.
>

My childhood experiences were most certainly abnormal -- though not for any of the reasons discussed in this conversation. As far as punishment goes, I was a wild, unruly child who often did things that required punishment (like beating up my younger siblings). My upbringing was not even remotely what one would label as "strict," nor was I "disciplined" for breaking house rules (not removing my dirty shoes) or not performing my chores (I was paid for any chores I opted to do).

I am only ten years younger than you, and we are both part of the "Baby Boom" generation, so I am every bit as familiar with what was considered "quite normal for the time" (regarding child rearing). I would never have removed my pants in order to receive a spanking, and cannot imagine any child with any semblance of independence or self-worth doing so.

> > If my siblings made fun of me (I had a weight problem as a child), the fat jokes would hurt me, and I would get angry and hit them: in order to a) make them stop, and b) to hurt them back (Tit for Tat).
> You weren't playing "Tit for Tat" -- hitting someone because they called you a name is way out of proportion.

Not because they called me a name (I had some measure of restraint) -- I only lost my temper after they repeatedly and relentlessly kept it up for several minutes. And, no, I wasn't intentionally "playing" Tit for Tat -- I was inadvertently engaging in Tit for Tat as a result of having lost my temper.

> It looks to me like you were trying to discipline them, instinctively by hitting them, because you're parents weren't maintaining discipline. Rest assured, if I or my sister had teased each other or any other child for their physical appearance, in front of my parents, we'd have been punished; probably not with the belt, more likely with a timeout in our own room. It sounds to me like your siblings needed some discipline, that for whatever reason your parents hadn't been able to teach them any
>

Correct. However, I wasn't attempting to discipline them -- I was simply mad at them and striking back. Nor, should I wish to imply that my siblings were malicious little imps while I was a little angel. I provoked them as well -- at least as often as they provoked me.

We were a very undisciplined brood and got away with "murder" (as they say) 99% of the time.

> > A child who is experiencing feelings of hurt and anger is not going to rationalize his situation and opt to restrain himself out of fear of the inevitable punishment.
> I wouldn't call your behavior irrational in the situation; I'd say you were acting dysfunctionally in response to a dysfunctional environment. It sounds to me like you knew the problem (lack of discipline), and were instinctively trying to correct it. It may have been at that point that you began seeing yourself as a "parent figure".
>

Not at all. Although that is closer how I see my role at AAPC.

As a child, I did everything I could to break any rules my parents had. I got punished for doing things like tying my little brother to a tree, or locking my little sister in the trunk of the family car. My grandmother often compared me to "Red Chief" from the O. Henry story (wherein a boy's kidnappers had to pay his parents to take him back), only in my case, the kidnappers would be stuck with me because there wasn't enough money in the world to make it worth anyone's while to take me back. She was joking, of course, although pointedly so.

> > > > > Rather, they try to minimize that by changing their own behavior, and even adopting rules (like confidentiality) of their own. Given a child's wants -- to break a rule and to not be punished -- such behavior looks perfectly rational.
> > > > >
> > > > Children can be deceitful, but since they often get away with it, and are therefore not punished for it, it doesn't really apply.
> > > >
> > > > We are talking about when a child gets punished, and in order to get punished a child must get caught. Again, children have difficulty controlling their anger, and it is generally behavioral issues stemming from anger that children are punished for (hitting a sibling, stealing or intentionally breaking a sibling's toy, taunting a sibling to tears, etc. These acts are not premeditated and the child lacks the necessary self-restraint to avoid them through behavioral modification.
> > > 2- to 4-year-olds; but by the time a child goes to school they've learned they can't just act at whim on their emotions whenever they want. There are house rules, and school rules, that they have to take into account (which doesn't mean always following them). They have to think about their behavior, and, increasingly as they grow up, to discipline it. I don't think you or your siblings were incapable of doing that; you just hadn't learned it for some reason.
> > >
> > Um... no.
> >
> > Where are you getting this information from?
> >
> > Children in playgroups (ages 2-4) get into fights, throw tantrums, scribble on each other's drawings, call each other names, etc.
> Like I just said: "2- to 4-year-olds; but by the time a child goes to school they've learned they can't just act at whim on their emotions whenever they want." Look at a bunch of 6-8-year-olds in a playground, and you'll see far less if any of that. Look at a bunch of 10-12-year-olds and you won't see any. Children are rational, and capable of learning to be human; they just need proper instruction.
<

What playgrounds have you been looking at, George?

On my first day of school (Kindergarten), I stepped off the bus, through the gate onto the playground, and immediately got into a fistfight with a classmate. I 5 years, 10 months old at the time. The fight occurred because the other boy had adopted a rather ridiculous boxing stance and was boasting that he could beat anyone in the crowd that had gathered around him. I thought it sounded like fun and took him up on it. Fortunately, neither of us were very good at it, and no one got hurt. We shook hands at the end and called it a draw.

There were often fights at recess -- some involving me, but most not -- and most of those much worse, and much more violent, than the one I'd gotten in.

Fights continued to break out on a regular basis throughout high school (again, some of them involving me). In fact, fighting continued to be a common occurrence throughout boot camp.

Based on my experience, I'd say that male children don't learn how to control their emotions (at least to the point where they're able to refrain from physical violence) until the age of 18 or 19.

> > > > OTOH, breaking a rule, getting caught, and trying to escape punishment by fighting one's father, does not look rational. That is the point.
> > > > It is not rational. As I've already stated, if children were always rational, they wouldn't repeatedly break the rules when they knew that punishment was the result.
> I didn't; and I don't know any children who did. It's normal for children to break rules (like hitting or teasing); it is not normal for them to do so in front fo their parents.

You're taking my statement out of context, George. I didn't steal cookies from the cookie jar in front of my mother. But if my siblings got me angry enough to hit them, I would do so regardless of who was watching.

Zod wrote:

> On Monday, November 28, 2022 at 4:22:29 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> On Monday, November 28, 2022 at 1:37:28 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
>> > > On 2022-11-27 7:09 a.m., Spam-I-Am wrote:
>> > > > On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 6:39:31 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>
>> > > >>> My Father's House
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> This is my father's house, although
>> > > >>> The man died thirteen years ago.
>> > > >>> They said it would be quite all right
>> > > >>> To take a drive to see it now.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>> > > >>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>> > > >>> Toiling after each full day's work.
>> > > >>> I helped, though I was only six.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Look, here's the back door I would use
>> > > >>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>> > > >>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>> > > >>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>> > > >>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>> > > >>> To be so many other places.
>> > > >>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Outside, the garden that he grew
>> > > >>> Where I would work the summers through,
>> > > >>> While watching my friends run and play
>> > > >>> Mysterious games I never knew.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>> > > >>> The one chair I was let to sit?
>> > > >>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>> > > >>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>> > > >>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>> > > >>> After the meal, to make no noise,
>> > > >>> To read or play alone, and then
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>> > > >>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>> > > >>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>> > > >>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>> > > >>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>> > > >>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>> > > >>> Its flames would light up all the air.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> ~~
>> > > >>> George J. Dance
>> > > >>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>> > > >> Okay, so the poem tells a story of remembered abuse.
>> > > >> The extent to which the story in the poem reflects the
>> > > >> true story of your life and memory is fundamentally
>> > > >> irrelevant to the reader except to the extent that your
>> > > >> life experience informs your ability to write emotionally
>> > > >> convincing stories that are of interest to other people.
>> > > >> When you say “My” father’s house, “By” George J. Dance,
>> > > >> people are going to think you’re talking about yourself.
>> > > >
>> > > > Therefore, “my” recommendation is to change the title of “your” poem from
>> > > > “My Father’s House” to “Our Father’s House”, and all of the relevant pronouns
>> > > > from singular to plural possessive. “Our” Father’s House allows “you” to represent
>> > > > and speak for “your” kin, those who identify with the speaker, and also provides a
>> > > > subtle religious connotation, “Our Father, who art in heaven…”, that “My” does not.
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > Thanks for giving it so much thought and effort. I have to acknowledge
>> > > that.
>> > >
>> > > Pluralizing all the pronouns would change the poem considerably, but one
>> > > thing it wouldn't change is the confusion you mentioned. If someone
>> > > thought this was a poem about my own father and childhood because it was
>> > > titled "My Father's House," they'd be just as likely to think that if it
>> > > were titled "Our Father's House".
>> > >
>> > > Except, of course, for that religious connotation; some might think it
>> > > was a poem about God. But it's not a poem about God, and that's an
>> > > interpretation I wouldn't want to encourage.
>> > >
>> > > > Lose the parentheses.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > I like them. They're both interruptions in the speaker's thought process.
>> Like I said, yes, I wondered why you would want to make the reader think the father of the poem was"God".
>>
>> HTH and HAND.

> Quite correct.....

Good afternoon, thanks for the nod.

On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 6:42:57 PM UTC, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:27:31 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
> > On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 10:40:45 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 7:40:15 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 9:33:05 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > But your experience (based on the depiction of your childhood in your poem) is not in keeping with the norm. If I got angry with one of my siblings, I hit them (and vice versa). I didn't care who was looking. A child hasn't the emotional resources to control his anger.
> > > > >
> > > > > And when one of my parents attempted to punish me as a result, I ran, and when caught, fought back against, my parent. This, too, was an emotional response comprising elements of both anger and fear.
> > > > That doesn't sound like me or any of the children I knew. My sister and I did fight, over the years, and might have intentionally broken the other's things (I don't remember), but we didn't involve our parents; we certainly didn't act that way in front of them. front of our parents. The two boys who lived next door fought a lot, and I fought with each of them now and then, mainly just play wrestling but soometimes more serious, but again it was something we didn't involve our parents in. The family you're describing to me sounds more dysfunctional than normal.
> > > >
> > > Whether my family was dysfunctional is not the issue.
> > No, what's at issue is whether it was "the norm". You're claiming that the strict discipline I was raised under (and my acceptance of that) was abnormal, going so far as to call it "a hellhole of abuse" -- and your only
> > reason is that it wasn't like your family experience. I'd say that your experience was abnormal, while mine (while perhaps stricter than some) was quite normal for the time, and so was my acceptance of it.
> >
> My childhood experiences were most certainly abnormal -- though not for any of the reasons discussed in this conversation. As far as punishment goes, I was a wild, unruly child who often did things that required punishment (like beating up my younger siblings). My upbringing was not even remotely what one would label as "strict," nor was I "disciplined" for breaking house rules (not removing my dirty shoes) or not performing my chores (I was paid for any chores I opted to do).

We had a wonderful, happy, secure childhood. However, our sister once stabbed us in the arm with a fork at the family dinner table. Our father did punish her, but not with a belt. We were probably 8 or 9 years old. Verbal and physical impulse control is erratic in children.
>
> I am only ten years younger than you, and we are both part of the "Baby Boom" generation, so I am every bit as familiar with what was considered "quite normal for the time" (regarding child rearing). I would never have removed my pants in order to receive a spanking, and cannot imagine any child with any semblance of independence or self-worth doing so.

Absolutely. The child who would submit was already broken.

> > > If my siblings made fun of me (I had a weight problem as a child), the fat jokes would hurt me, and I would get angry and hit them: in order to a) make them stop, and b) to hurt them back (Tit for Tat).
> > You weren't playing "Tit for Tat" -- hitting someone because they called you a name is way out of proportion.
> Not because they called me a name (I had some measure of restraint) -- I only lost my temper after they repeatedly and relentlessly kept it up for several minutes. And, no, I wasn't intentionally "playing" Tit for Tat -- I was inadvertently engaging in Tit for Tat as a result of having lost my temper.

We don't remember what we did or said to deserve the arm-stabbing, but having our father at the table was not a deterrent to our sister. She reacted.

> > It looks to me like you were trying to discipline them, instinctively by hitting them, because you're parents weren't maintaining discipline. Rest assured, if I or my sister had teased each other or any other child for their physical appearance, in front of my parents, we'd have been punished; probably not with the belt, more likely with a timeout in our own room. It sounds to me like your siblings needed some discipline, that for whatever reason your parents hadn't been able to teach them any
> >
> Correct. However, I wasn't attempting to discipline them -- I was simply mad at them and striking back. Nor, should I wish to imply that my siblings were malicious little imps while I was a little angel. I provoked them as well -- at least as often as they provoked me.

Siblings fight for a variety of reasons.
>
> We were a very undisciplined brood and got away with "murder" (as they say) 99% of the time.

That was good and healthy for the development of your self esteem.

> > > A child who is experiencing feelings of hurt and anger is not going to rationalize his situation and opt to restrain himself out of fear of the inevitable punishment.
> > I wouldn't call your behavior irrational in the situation; I'd say you were acting dysfunctionally in response to a dysfunctional environment. It sounds to me like you knew the problem (lack of discipline), and were instinctively trying to correct it. It may have been at that point that you began seeing yourself as a "parent figure".
> >
> Not at all. Although that is closer how I see my role at AAPC.

Dad!
>
> As a child, I did everything I could to break any rules my parents had. I got punished for doing things like tying my little brother to a tree, or locking my little sister in the trunk of the family car. My grandmother often compared me to "Red Chief" from the O. Henry story (wherein a boy's kidnappers had to pay his parents to take him back), only in my case, the kidnappers would be stuck with me because there wasn't enough money in the world to make it worth anyone's while to take me back. She was joking, of course, although pointedly so.

You sound like you had an upbringing that was conducive to developing your own imagination and personality without fear.

> > > > > > Rather, they try to minimize that by changing their own behavior, and even adopting rules (like confidentiality) of their own. Given a child's wants -- to break a rule and to not be punished -- such behavior looks perfectly rational.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Children can be deceitful, but since they often get away with it, and are therefore not punished for it, it doesn't really apply.
> > > > >
> > > > > We are talking about when a child gets punished, and in order to get punished a child must get caught. Again, children have difficulty controlling their anger, and it is generally behavioral issues stemming from anger that children are punished for (hitting a sibling, stealing or intentionally breaking a sibling's toy, taunting a sibling to tears, etc. These acts are not premeditated and the child lacks the necessary self-restraint to avoid them through behavioral modification.
> > > > 2- to 4-year-olds; but by the time a child goes to school they've learned they can't just act at whim on their emotions whenever they want. There are house rules, and school rules, that they have to take into account (which doesn't mean always following them). They have to think about their behavior, and, increasingly as they grow up, to discipline it. I don't think you or your siblings were incapable of doing that; you just hadn't learned it for some reason.
> > > >
> > > Um... no.
> > >
> > > Where are you getting this information from?
> > >
> > > Children in playgroups (ages 2-4) get into fights, throw tantrums, scribble on each other's drawings, call each other names, etc.
> > Like I just said: "2- to 4-year-olds; but by the time a child goes to school they've learned they can't just act at whim on their emotions whenever they want." Look at a bunch of 6-8-year-olds in a playground, and you'll see far less if any of that. Look at a bunch of 10-12-year-olds and you won't see any. Children are rational, and capable of learning to be human; they just need proper instruction.
> <
> What playgrounds have you been looking at, George?
We think that George Dance has not had much exposure to children of any age, even himself.
>
> On my first day of school (Kindergarten), I stepped off the bus, through the gate onto the playground, and immediately got into a fistfight with a classmate. I 5 years, 10 months old at the time. The fight occurred because the other boy had adopted a rather ridiculous boxing stance and was boasting that he could beat anyone in the crowd that had gathered around him. I thought it sounded like fun and took him up on it. Fortunately, neither of us were very good at it, and no one got hurt. We shook hands at the end and called it a draw.

On our first day, we didn't want to be there with those idiots and wanted to go back home.
>
> There were often fights at recess -- some involving me, but most not -- and most of those much worse, and much more violent, than the one I'd gotten in.
>
> Fights continued to break out on a regular basis throughout high school (again, some of them involving me). In fact, fighting continued to be a common occurrence throughout boot camp.
>
> Based on my experience, I'd say that male children don't learn how to control their emotions (at least to the point where they're able to refrain from physical violence) until the age of 18 or 19.

General-Zod wrote:

> George J. Dance wrote:
>>
>> My Father's House

>> This is my father's house, although
>> The man died thirteen years ago.
>> They said it would be quite all right
>> To take a drive to see it now.

>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>> Toiling after each full day's work.
>> I helped, though I was only six.

>> Look, here's the back door I would use
>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.

>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>> To be so many other places.
>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)

>> Outside, the garden that he grew
>> Where I would work the summers through,
>> While watching my friends run and play
>> Mysterious games I never knew.

>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>> The one chair I was let to sit?
>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>> Which, the corner where boys were put?

>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>> After the meal, to make no noise,
>> To read or play alone, and then

>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.

>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>> Its flames would light up all the air.

>> ~~
>> George J. Dance
>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021

> Quite an excellent poem, G.D.

Again, agreed.

On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 5:54:27 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 6:42:57 PM UTC, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:27:31 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
> > > On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 10:40:45 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 7:40:15 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 9:33:05 AM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > But your experience (based on the depiction of your childhood in your poem) is not in keeping with the norm. If I got angry with one of my siblings, I hit them (and vice versa). I didn't care who was looking. A child hasn't the emotional resources to control his anger.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And when one of my parents attempted to punish me as a result, I ran, and when caught, fought back against, my parent. This, too, was an emotional response comprising elements of both anger and fear.
> > > > > That doesn't sound like me or any of the children I knew. My sister and I did fight, over the years, and might have intentionally broken the other's things (I don't remember), but we didn't involve our parents; we certainly didn't act that way in front of them. front of our parents. The two boys who lived next door fought a lot, and I fought with each of them now and then, mainly just play wrestling but soometimes more serious, but again it was something we didn't involve our parents in. The family you're describing to me sounds more dysfunctional than normal.
> > > > >
> > > > Whether my family was dysfunctional is not the issue.
> > > No, what's at issue is whether it was "the norm". You're claiming that the strict discipline I was raised under (and my acceptance of that) was abnormal, going so far as to call it "a hellhole of abuse" -- and your only
> > > reason is that it wasn't like your family experience. I'd say that your experience was abnormal, while mine (while perhaps stricter than some) was quite normal for the time, and so was my acceptance of it.
> > >
> > My childhood experiences were most certainly abnormal -- though not for any of the reasons discussed in this conversation. As far as punishment goes, I was a wild, unruly child who often did things that required punishment (like beating up my younger siblings). My upbringing was not even remotely what one would label as "strict," nor was I "disciplined" for breaking house rules (not removing my dirty shoes) or not performing my chores (I was paid for any chores I opted to do).
> We had a wonderful, happy, secure childhood. However, our sister once stabbed us in the arm with a fork at the family dinner table. Our father did punish her, but not with a belt. We were probably 8 or 9 years old. Verbal and physical impulse control is erratic in children.
> >

We never stabbed one another, although I did carry a pocket knife.

> > I am only ten years younger than you, and we are both part of the "Baby Boom" generation, so I am every bit as familiar with what was considered "quite normal for the time" (regarding child rearing). I would never have removed my pants in order to receive a spanking, and cannot imagine any child with any semblance of independence or self-worth doing so.
> Absolutely. The child who would submit was already broken.

I feel sorry for Little Boy George.

> > > > If my siblings made fun of me (I had a weight problem as a child), the fat jokes would hurt me, and I would get angry and hit them: in order to a) make them stop, and b) to hurt them back (Tit for Tat).
> > > You weren't playing "Tit for Tat" -- hitting someone because they called you a name is way out of proportion.
> > Not because they called me a name (I had some measure of restraint) -- I only lost my temper after they repeatedly and relentlessly kept it up for several minutes. And, no, I wasn't intentionally "playing" Tit for Tat -- I was inadvertently engaging in Tit for Tat as a result of having lost my temper.
> We don't remember what we did or said to deserve the arm-stabbing, but having our father at the table was not a deterrent to our sister. She reacted..

One of our favorite dinner time rituals was to "Ptooey" on one another's plates. We didn't actually spit, mind you... we just said the word "ptooey." This act would invariably cause the child whose plate had been fouled to attempt to similarly soil the plate of the perpetrator (who would protect their unspoiled plate at all costs). Utensils were sometimes brandished for show, but never actually employed.

> > > It looks to me like you were trying to discipline them, instinctively by hitting them, because you're parents weren't maintaining discipline. Rest assured, if I or my sister had teased each other or any other child for their physical appearance, in front of my parents, we'd have been punished; probably not with the belt, more likely with a timeout in our own room. It sounds to me like your siblings needed some discipline, that for whatever reason your parents hadn't been able to teach them any
> > >
> > Correct. However, I wasn't attempting to discipline them -- I was simply mad at them and striking back. Nor, should I wish to imply that my siblings were malicious little imps while I was a little angel. I provoked them as well -- at least as often as they provoked me.
> Siblings fight for a variety of reasons.

That's what sibs are for.

> > We were a very undisciplined brood and got away with "murder" (as they say) 99% of the time.
> That was good and healthy for the development of your self esteem.

True. However, it also had its drawbacks. Raising a child as a Prince doesn't prepare him for the real world where the hoi polloi don't know they are his subjects.

> > > > A child who is experiencing feelings of hurt and anger is not going to rationalize his situation and opt to restrain himself out of fear of the inevitable punishment.
> > > I wouldn't call your behavior irrational in the situation; I'd say you were acting dysfunctionally in response to a dysfunctional environment. It sounds to me like you knew the problem (lack of discipline), and were instinctively trying to correct it. It may have been at that point that you began seeing yourself as a "parent figure".
> > >
> > Not at all. Although that is closer how I see my role at AAPC.
> Dad!
> >
> > As a child, I did everything I could to break any rules my parents had. I got punished for doing things like tying my little brother to a tree, or locking my little sister in the trunk of the family car. My grandmother often compared me to "Red Chief" from the O. Henry story (wherein a boy's kidnappers had to pay his parents to take him back), only in my case, the kidnappers would be stuck with me because there wasn't enough money in the world to make it worth anyone's while to take me back. She was joking, of course, although pointedly so.
> You sound like you had an upbringing that was conducive to developing your own imagination and personality without fear.

Yes, I was a very imaginative child. My mother signed me up for dance, piano, and trumpet lessons; and I spent my free time (when I wasn't fighting with my sibs) drawing, painting, reading, writing, and acting out make-believe "movies" in my back yard.

> > > > > > > Rather, they try to minimize that by changing their own behavior, and even adopting rules (like confidentiality) of their own. Given a child's wants -- to break a rule and to not be punished -- such behavior looks perfectly rational.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Children can be deceitful, but since they often get away with it, and are therefore not punished for it, it doesn't really apply.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We are talking about when a child gets punished, and in order to get punished a child must get caught. Again, children have difficulty controlling their anger, and it is generally behavioral issues stemming from anger that children are punished for (hitting a sibling, stealing or intentionally breaking a sibling's toy, taunting a sibling to tears, etc. These acts are not premeditated and the child lacks the necessary self-restraint to avoid them through behavioral modification.
> > > > > 2- to 4-year-olds; but by the time a child goes to school they've learned they can't just act at whim on their emotions whenever they want. There are house rules, and school rules, that they have to take into account (which doesn't mean always following them). They have to think about their behavior, and, increasingly as they grow up, to discipline it. I don't think you or your siblings were incapable of doing that; you just hadn't learned it for some reason.
> > > > >
> > > > Um... no.
> > > >
> > > > Where are you getting this information from?
> > > >
> > > > Children in playgroups (ages 2-4) get into fights, throw tantrums, scribble on each other's drawings, call each other names, etc.
> > > Like I just said: "2- to 4-year-olds; but by the time a child goes to school they've learned they can't just act at whim on their emotions whenever they want." Look at a bunch of 6-8-year-olds in a playground, and you'll see far less if any of that. Look at a bunch of 10-12-year-olds and you won't see any. Children are rational, and capable of learning to be human; they just need proper instruction.
> > <
> > What playgrounds have you been looking at, George?
> We think that George Dance has not had much exposure to children of any age, even himself.

Zod wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>> Zod wrote:
>> >> George Dance wrote:
>>
>> >>>> >> >>>> My Father's House
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
>> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
>> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
>> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
>> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
>> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
>> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
>> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
>> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
>> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
>> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
>> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
>> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
>> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
>> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
>> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
>> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
>> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
>> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
>> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
>> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
>> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
>> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
>> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
>> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
>> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
>> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
>> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
>> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
>> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
>> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
>> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
>> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
>> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
>> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
>> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
>> >>
>> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
>> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
>>
>> >
>> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments."
>>
>> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
>> Okay, fair enough.

> Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....

Which is one of Michael Pendragon's typical troll tactics.

HTH and HAND.