On 3/4/2022 7:48 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 6:17:42 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
>> John, the Russians lost 25,000,000 people in 1941 fighting off the
>> Germans. The Russians are not going to allow any of their buffer
>> countries like Ukraine invite the Germans back in. Not gonna happen and
>> Ukraine knew it. Instead Ukraine was dancing around the place trying to
>> get NATO in.
>
> The Russian people are not responsible for the aggression that the
> Ukrainian people are suffering. The decision to invade the Ukraine
> was made by one man, Vladimir Putin.
>
> The people of the Ukraine are human beings. Therefore, they have the
> right to live under a democratic government. And that right should be
> absolutely secure. It should no more be a possibility that Russia would
> invade the Ukraine than that Russia would invade Texas.
>
> Yes, there is indeed a historical strategic doctrine held in some quarters
> in Russia that it needs buffer states. But this should properly be viewed
> as a hallucination in the disordered mind of Vladimir Putin, not as anything
> with any merit or validity.
>
> Russia invaded. If NATO had been in the Ukraine, Russia would not have invaded;
> you don't see it invading any of the countries in NATO, do you?
>
> So don't be an apologist for tyranny.
>
> Don't suggest, in any way, that either the Ukraine or the United States
> (through its support of the Ukraine, as opposed to its failure to support
> the Ukraine strongly enough) is responsible for what is going on in the
> Ukraine at this time.
>
> Although the nations of the Free World cannot take up arms against
> Russia, and I have no quarrel with discretion and restraint for the
> purpose of avoiding global thermonuclear war, let us make no mistake
> about it: in every other way, we are now at war with Russia and with
> Belarus, and our every word and action should be guided by this fact.
> Because we can expect to be held accountable if we fail to meet this
> standard.
>
> John Savard

John, I am not apologizing for anyone and you know it. I am simply
stating the fact that people are poking the bear and have gotten bitten.

BTW, if NATO establishes a no fly zone over Ukraine, the first time that
a German fighter plane shoots down a Russian plane or helicopter, the
nukes will be flying in Europe.
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/596942-why-the-us-and-nato-refuse-to-declare-a-no-fly-zone-for-ukraine

Lynn

On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 9:12:23 PM UTC-5, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 20:16:26 -0600, Lynn McGuire
> <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >How you can make this about Trump is amazing. Trump has nothing to do
> >with Ukraine at all. It is Biden's son Hunter who took millions of
> >dollars in bribes in the kleptocracy known as Ukraine. And 10% for the
> >Big Guy.
> Exactly.
> >BTW, Russia and Ukraine grow 29% of the wheat in the world. Do you like
> >bread ? Get ready to pay $10 for loaf of bread.
> And even if you could get bread you wouldn't have to turn on the
> kitchen lights as you could see the bread glowing in the dark!

We grow a lot of wheat, rye, etc here in the States. During the
pandemic I learned how to make my mother's soda bread.
It tastes way better than the generic wheat bread I buy at the
local Aldi.

I used to live within walking distance of a great bakery that sells
great bread that I suppose would be called "artisanal." "Real bread"
would be my term for it. Loaves there are between $6 -$10 each.
I used to have to freeze half, because they didn't have preservatives
in them, and would go bad before I could eat half of one.

I may "practice bake" this weekend, before I make some soda
bread for the 17th.

---
Kevin R

On 2022-03-04 5:17 p.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/4/2022 4:45 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 1:55:13 PM UTC-7, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>
>>> And you seem to be casting Russia as the cancer. Do you
>>> want it to get radiation treatment?
>>
>> That is very definitely not what he wants. He seems to feel that the best
>> way to isolate Russia is to let it do what it wants with its immediate
>> neighbors,
>> like Belarus, Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania. Instead, standing
>> by people who,
>> having become free, want to remain free, doesn't seem to be appealing
>> to him.
>>
>> John Savard
>
> John, the Russians lost 25,000,000 people in 1941 fighting off the
> Germans.  The Russians are not going to allow any of their buffer
> countries like Ukraine invite the Germans back in.  Not gonna happen and
> Ukraine knew it.  Instead Ukraine was dancing around the place trying to
> get NATO in.

I love that you're making excuses for Russia invading a sovereign nation.

On 2022-03-04 7:46 p.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/4/2022 7:48 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 6:17:42 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>
>>> John, the Russians lost 25,000,000 people in 1941 fighting off the
>>> Germans. The Russians are not going to allow any of their buffer
>>> countries like Ukraine invite the Germans back in. Not gonna happen and
>>> Ukraine knew it. Instead Ukraine was dancing around the place trying to
>>> get NATO in.
>>
>> The Russian people are not responsible for the aggression that the
>> Ukrainian people are suffering. The decision to invade the Ukraine
>> was made by one man, Vladimir Putin.
>>
>> The people of the Ukraine are human beings. Therefore, they have the
>> right to live under a democratic government. And that right should be
>> absolutely secure. It should no more be a possibility that Russia would
>> invade the Ukraine than that Russia would invade Texas.
>>
>> Yes, there is indeed a historical strategic doctrine held in some
>> quarters
>> in Russia that it needs buffer states. But this should properly be viewed
>> as a hallucination in the disordered mind of Vladimir Putin, not as
>> anything
>> with any merit or validity.
>>
>> Russia invaded. If NATO had been in the Ukraine, Russia would not have
>> invaded;
>> you don't see it invading any of the countries in NATO, do you?
>>
>> So don't be an apologist for tyranny.
>>
>> Don't suggest, in any way, that either the Ukraine or the United States
>> (through its support of the Ukraine, as opposed to its failure to support
>> the Ukraine strongly enough) is responsible for what is going on in the
>> Ukraine at this time.
>>
>> Although the nations of the Free World cannot take up arms against
>> Russia, and I have no quarrel with discretion and restraint for the
>> purpose of avoiding global thermonuclear war, let us make no mistake
>> about it: in every other way, we are now at war with Russia and with
>> Belarus, and our every word and action should be guided by this fact.
>> Because we can expect to be held accountable if we fail to meet this
>> standard.
>>
>> John Savard
>
> John, I am not apologizing for anyone and you know it.  I am simply
> stating the fact that people are poking the bear and have gotten bitten.

You're a liar or a fool.

On 2022-03-03 7:16 p.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/2/2022 10:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Tue, 01 Mar 2022 17:00:31 -0500, J. Clarke
>> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 01 Mar 2022 13:42:18 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 01 Mar 2022 08:45:08 -0800, Paul S Person
>>>> <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> <snippo>
>>
>>>>> As an example of "whiplash", it appears that the war has shown that
>>>>> drones, even Turkish [1] drones, equipped with anti-tank missiles,
>>>>> even Turkish [1] anti-tank missiles, can do a lot of damage to tanks
>>>>> and other armored vehicles.
>>>>
>>>> And while other countries haven't been sending troops they HAVE been
>>>> sending anti-tank missiles - both NATO countries and the Swedes.
>>>>
>>> It's rather surprising that the drones work given Russia's alleged
>>> prowess at hacking.

Nobody puts their drones on an open computer network.

Maybe they aren't as good as everybody thinks
>>> they are, or may the hackers don't work for the government like
>>> everybody thinks they do.  I would have expected the Russians to have
>>> little difficulty either jamming the com links or overriding control.
>>
>> I see very little connection between hacking the Internet and either
>> jamming or overriding drones. Although I suppose if a country were
>> daft enough to actually put their drones on the Internet (that is,
>> give them an IP address and associated software), they would deserve
>> what they got. As I have noted elsewhere, the "Internet of Things" is
>> not, in point of fact, a sane idea.
>>
>> My new ISP uses a cellphone embedded in my optic fiber modem (it could
>> be in the router which is then used to control the modem as well over
>> the Ethernet cable) to examine, run diagnostics on, and set things on
>> the equipment Not the Internet, a cell phone. There is more to the
>> world than the Internet, and hacking the Internet does not apply to
>> everything.
>>
>>> This is looking more and more like a blunder--if the Russians are
>>> having this much trouble taking Ukraine, NATO would eat them for
>>> breakfast.

The Russians were assuming that that they'd could just walk the same way
they did when they snatched Crimea. They didn't understand that they
were now invading the part of Ukraine that had had increasingly angry
and desperate Ukrainians.

>>
>> The Russians need to withdraw their troops and those of their
>> supporters in the Eastern Ukraine and the Crimea who wish to go back
>> to Russia, reverse all their bogus decrees on the Eastern Ukraine and
>> the Crimea and start discussing how much the reparations required to
>> get the sanctions lifted will be. And hope that abandoning Kaliningrad
>> and paying to clean /it/ up isn't part of the deal. And, yes, I am
>> being a bit optimistic again.
>>
>> But I don't think Putin is any more capable of such an action than
>> Trump, his sock puppet, would be.
>>
>> At least Trump had enough sense to not actually /invade/ [1] another
>> country!
>>
>> [1] It occurred to me back in 2016 that Trump /could/ get Mexico to
>> pay for the wall by invading it and seizing its treasury. Thankfully,
>> this never occurred to anyone who mattered.

It might have, except most of them would realize it's been more than a
century since conquering a populous nation was profitable.

>
> Putin is deadly worried that Ukraine will eventually join NATO and have
> German troops there.  The last time Russia fought Germany in Ukraine in
> 1941, Russia lost 600,000 fighting men in Ukraine alone !  26 million
> Soviet deaths including 9 million fighting men dead across the eastern
> front.  The Russians have long memories of that war.  Putin will never
> allow Ukraine to join NATO.
>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa
>
> How you can make this about Trump is amazing.  Trump has nothing to do
> with Ukraine at all.  It is Biden's son Hunter who took millions of
> dollars in bribes in the kleptocracy known as Ukraine.  And 10% for the
> Big Guy.

Which would buy them...what?

On 2022-03-04 8:42 p.m., Quadibloc wrote:
> On Thursday, March 3, 2022 at 7:16:33 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
>> How you can make this about Trump is amazing. Trump has nothing to do
>> with Ukraine at all. It is Biden's son Hunter who took millions of
>> dollars in bribes in the kleptocracy known as Ukraine. And 10% for the
>> Big Guy.
>
> Ukraine _was_ a kleptocracy under its former leader, who had his own
> private zoo. But in the Orange Revolution, he was overthrown, and
> it is now a democracy, with a leader who is a hero, not a thief.
> As for Hunter Biden, he was in Ukraine on behalf of the U.S. Government
> to support democracy there,

You are confusing Hunter and Joe.

On 2022-03-04 6:17 p.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/4/2022 4:45 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 1:55:13 PM UTC-7, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>
>>> And you seem to be casting Russia as the cancer. Do you
>>> want it to get radiation treatment?
>>
>> That is very definitely not what he wants. He seems to feel that the best
>> way to isolate Russia is to let it do what it wants with its immediate
>> neighbors,
>> like Belarus, Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania. Instead, standing
>> by people who,
>> having become free, want to remain free, doesn't seem to be appealing
>> to him.
>>
>> John Savard
>
> John, the Russians lost 25,000,000 people in 1941 fighting off the
> Germans.  The Russians are not going to allow any of their buffer
> countries like Ukraine invite the Germans back in.  Not gonna happen and
> Ukraine knew it.  Instead Ukraine was dancing around the place trying to
> get NATO in.

Because they knew that the Russians were going to move in and try to
takeover the rest of it if Ukraine didn't get protection from them.

On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:47:00 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:

> BTW, if NATO establishes a no fly zone over Ukraine, the first time that
> a German fighter plane shoots down a Russian plane or helicopter, the
> nukes will be flying in Europe.
>
> https://thehill.com/policy/defense/596942-why-the-us-and-nato-refuse-to-declare-a-no-fly-zone-for-ukraine

Yes, regrettably, we must decline this request, even though it comes
from the heroic Volodomyr Zelensky. As I have said, I understand the
need for discretion in the face of the potential for a nuclear war.

John Savard

On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 1:55:08 AM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:47:00 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
> > BTW, if NATO establishes a no fly zone over Ukraine, the first time that
> > a German fighter plane shoots down a Russian plane or helicopter, the
> > nukes will be flying in Europe.
> >
> > https://thehill.com/policy/defense/596942-why-the-us-and-nato-refuse-to-declare-a-no-fly-zone-for-ukraine
> Yes, regrettably, we must decline this request, even though it comes
> from the heroic Volodomyr Zelensky. As I have said, I understand the
> need for discretion in the face of the potential for a nuclear war.

However, this article

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-friday-edition-1.6373404/putin-s-veiled-nuclear-threats-a-sign-of-weakness-says-former-russian-foreign-minister-1.6373704

reminds us that there is another side to the question.

If we stand idly by as Russia gobbles up Ukraine because if we act
more decisively, Russia might start a nuclear war...

then doesn't the same apply to Taiwan

or Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, even if they are NATO members

or Germany.

If all it takes is a nuclear threat to sideline the Free World, then the
dictators have won, they will be able to gobble up all the countries of
the world one by one.

Only the United States of America, and maybe France and Britain, will
be left.

John Savard

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
> On 3/4/2022 4:45 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 1:55:13 PM UTC-7, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>
>>> And you seem to be casting Russia as the cancer. Do you
>>> want it to get radiation treatment?
>>
>> That is very definitely not what he wants. He seems to feel that the best
>> way to isolate Russia is to let it do what it wants with its immediate neighbors,
>> like Belarus, Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania. Instead, standing by people who,
>> having become free, want to remain free, doesn't seem to be appealing to him.
>>
>> John Savard
>
> John, the Russians lost 25,000,000 people in 1941 fighting off the
> Germans.

Pont of accuracy: The Soviet Union lost that many people, and
much of the fighting and many of the casualties were in Ukraine.
Just look up the different battles of Kharkov in Wikipedia.

Interestingly, the Bundeswehr currently is in no great shape
to fight anybody, let alone invade. In a few years, this will
presumably be different due to the large amount of money that
has been pledged.

> The Russians are not going to allow any of their buffer
> countries like Ukraine invite the Germans back in. Not gonna happen and
> Ukraine knew it. Instead Ukraine was dancing around the place trying to
> get NATO in.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60353677 may play a role in
that...

On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 2:42:29 AM UTC-7, Thomas Koenig wrote:

> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60353677 may play a role in
> that...

The line "It says much for official attitudes that the Russian Supreme
Court recently ordered the closure of Memorial, Russia's oldest NGO
dedicated to uncovering Soviet-era abuses"... on the basis that they
were "portraying the Soviet Union as a terrorist state instead of taking
pride in our glorious past" is telling.

So the current fascist state has chosen to align itself with the Communists.

It's too bad that when - and *if* - Putin is overthrown, and the attack on
Ukraine ends, Russia will get off easy. Perhaps having to spend some money
on helping Ukraine rebuild, but not faced with permanent denuclearization
(and perhaps total disarmament, with a Peace Constitution like Japan's),
and the requirement to also make reparations for all the Eastern European
satellite countries for the impact of being placed in the backwater Warsaw
Pact instead of being able to participate in Europe's postwar recovery.

John Savard

On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 2:42:29 AM UTC-7, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> schrieb:

> > John, the Russians lost 25,000,000 people in 1941 fighting off the
> > Germans.

> Pont of accuracy: The Soviet Union lost that many people, and
> much of the fighting and many of the casualties were in Ukraine.
> Just look up the different battles of Kharkov in Wikipedia.

Speaking of Wikipedia, it even has a breakdown by Republic:

The Russian SFSR had 13,950,000 out of the post-Soviet estimate
of 26.6 milliion casualties, while the Ukrainian SSR had 6.65 million
of them.

The Byelorussian SSR, however, also had 2.29 million casualties, in
fairness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the_Soviet_Union

John Savard

On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 3:03:36 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:

> None of that is going to happen without someone going in and
> conquering the place, with the associated millions of dead even if
> there is no nuclear war.

Precisely. And with no justice, there can be no permanent peace.

I wish the United States could completely eliminate the risk of nuclear
attack from Russia, and go in and conquer the place in a similar fashion
to, say, the initial stages of the war on Iraq, but wishes are not realities.

What I hope Putin's adventure will trigger, though, is the United States
going into an arms race. Matching - and far exceeding - Russia's
hypersonic cruise missiles. Dusting off the Strategic Defense Initiative.
And so on and so forth.

If we're lucky, not just Russia, but even China could be brought to
economic collapse, repeating the original fall of the Soviet Union.

John Savard

In article <svupsn$13s$3@dont-email.me>, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>On 2022-03-04 7:46 p.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 3/4/2022 7:48 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 6:17:42 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>
>>>> John, the Russians lost 25,000,000 people in 1941 fighting off the
>>>> Germans. The Russians are not going to allow any of their buffer
>>>> countries like Ukraine invite the Germans back in. Not gonna happen and
>>>> Ukraine knew it. Instead Ukraine was dancing around the place trying to
>>>> get NATO in.
>>>
>>> The Russian people are not responsible for the aggression that the
>>> Ukrainian people are suffering. The decision to invade the Ukraine
>>> was made by one man, Vladimir Putin.
>>>
>>> The people of the Ukraine are human beings. Therefore, they have the
>>> right to live under a democratic government. And that right should be
>>> absolutely secure. It should no more be a possibility that Russia would
>>> invade the Ukraine than that Russia would invade Texas.
>>>
>>> Yes, there is indeed a historical strategic doctrine held in some
>>> quarters
>>> in Russia that it needs buffer states. But this should properly be viewed
>>> as a hallucination in the disordered mind of Vladimir Putin, not as
>>> anything
>>> with any merit or validity.
>>>
>>> Russia invaded. If NATO had been in the Ukraine, Russia would not have
>>> invaded;
>>> you don't see it invading any of the countries in NATO, do you?
>>>
>>> So don't be an apologist for tyranny.
>>>
>>> Don't suggest, in any way, that either the Ukraine or the United States
>>> (through its support of the Ukraine, as opposed to its failure to support
>>> the Ukraine strongly enough) is responsible for what is going on in the
>>> Ukraine at this time.
>>>
>>> Although the nations of the Free World cannot take up arms against
>>> Russia, and I have no quarrel with discretion and restraint for the
>>> purpose of avoiding global thermonuclear war, let us make no mistake
>>> about it: in every other way, we are now at war with Russia and with
>>> Belarus, and our every word and action should be guided by this fact.
>>> Because we can expect to be held accountable if we fail to meet this
>>> standard.
>>>
>>> John Savard
>>
>> John, I am not apologizing for anyone and you know it.  I am simply
>> stating the fact that people are poking the bear and have gotten bitten.
>
>You're a liar or a fool.

Alternatively, a Republican, which is to say a Putinist.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

In article <dq372h92dio28o609mam43biogu9ft1vue@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 13:27:30 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James
>Nicoll) wrote:
>
>>In article <svupsn$13s$3@dont-email.me>, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>On 2022-03-04 7:46 p.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 3/4/2022 7:48 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 6:17:42 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> John, the Russians lost 25,000,000 people in 1941 fighting off the
>>>>>> Germans. The Russians are not going to allow any of their buffer
>>>>>> countries like Ukraine invite the Germans back in. Not gonna happen and
>>>>>> Ukraine knew it. Instead Ukraine was dancing around the place trying to
>>>>>> get NATO in.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Russian people are not responsible for the aggression that the
>>>>> Ukrainian people are suffering. The decision to invade the Ukraine
>>>>> was made by one man, Vladimir Putin.
>>>>>
>>>>> The people of the Ukraine are human beings. Therefore, they have the
>>>>> right to live under a democratic government. And that right should be
>>>>> absolutely secure. It should no more be a possibility that Russia would
>>>>> invade the Ukraine than that Russia would invade Texas.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, there is indeed a historical strategic doctrine held in some
>>>>> quarters
>>>>> in Russia that it needs buffer states. But this should properly be viewed
>>>>> as a hallucination in the disordered mind of Vladimir Putin, not as
>>>>> anything
>>>>> with any merit or validity.
>>>>>
>>>>> Russia invaded. If NATO had been in the Ukraine, Russia would not have
>>>>> invaded;
>>>>> you don't see it invading any of the countries in NATO, do you?
>>>>>
>>>>> So don't be an apologist for tyranny.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't suggest, in any way, that either the Ukraine or the United States
>>>>> (through its support of the Ukraine, as opposed to its failure to support
>>>>> the Ukraine strongly enough) is responsible for what is going on in the
>>>>> Ukraine at this time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Although the nations of the Free World cannot take up arms against
>>>>> Russia, and I have no quarrel with discretion and restraint for the
>>>>> purpose of avoiding global thermonuclear war, let us make no mistake
>>>>> about it: in every other way, we are now at war with Russia and with
>>>>> Belarus, and our every word and action should be guided by this fact.
>>>>> Because we can expect to be held accountable if we fail to meet this
>>>>> standard.
>>>>>
>>>>> John Savard
>>>>
>>>> John, I am not apologizing for anyone and you know it.  I am simply
>>>> stating the fact that people are poking the bear and have gotten bitten.
>>>
>>>You're a liar or a fool.
>>
>>Alternatively, a Republican, which is to say a Putinist.
>
>The Republican Party:
>... the Party of Lincoln until it became the Party of Racism in the
>50s and 60s (replacing the Southern Democrats)
>-- the Party of Racism until it became the Party of Reagan and, when
>Ronnie laid a wreath in a German military cemetary housing the SS
>troopers who shot American POWs in the Battle of the Bulge, the Party
>of Hitler
>-- the Party of Hitler until it became the Party of The Contract on
>America in the mid-90s
>-- the Party of The Contract on America, whose first attempt to
>fulfill said contract produced the Great Recession, until it became
>the Party of Trump -- but Trump was Putin's sock puppet, so it really
>became the Party of Putin
>-- the Party of Putin from 2016 or so onwards, even more clearly since
>2020, as Putin may well have been the source and driving force behind
>the Big Lie (that the 2020 election was stolen)
>
>However, there is hope: the fomer VP, Pence, has publicly stated that
>the "friends of Putin" are /not/ welcome in the Republican Party.
>
>Perhaps that will produce a course correction.
>
>Or perhaps an entirely new Party that the non-RINOs (RINOs following
>Trump [and so Putin]) -- /not/ the Trump/Putin gang, that is -- can
>form and join and move back toward the center.
>
>Yes, I am an optimist. But we shall see what we shall see.

What Pohl called Horizon Forecasting suggests that since the Republicans
have got worse every year of my life, they are likely to continue getting
worse for the foreseeable future.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:25:31 AM UTC-7, Paul S Person wrote:

> Putin has endangered us all -- and he is the only danger that needs
> dealing with by the international community. Ukraine just needs
> weapons and a few International Brigades.

At present.

But Putin intends to _win_ this conflict, not voluntarily withdraw.

And he is taking more elaborate measures to protect himself from
any assassination attempt. His communications with other government
officials are now over video links.

It's much easier to kill Putin than it would be for the rest of the Russian
government to agree to just ignore him. I mean, really. Putin is a former KGB
man, so of course he knows how to structure things for control. So if he
is able to avoid being killed - and hackers probably will not be able to find
his video feeds to mess with them - collapse of the Russian government will
be long delayed.

As the war continues, the suffering of the Ukrainian people could get much
worse.

John Savard

On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:34:25 AM UTC-7, Paul S Person wrote:

> -- the Party of Racism until it became the Party of Reagan and, when
> Ronnie laid a wreath in a German military cemetary housing the SS
> troopers who shot American POWs in the Battle of the Bulge, the Party
> of Hitler

I agree that the Republican Party is in a sad state.

There is hope, though, that it may turn around, and choose Mike Pence
rather than Trump or Ron de Santis as its new leader.

And in criticizing it, I think we should avoid going overboard. In seeking to
reconcile with the Germany of today, if he either was inadequately briefed,
or misjudged American sensitivities - that does _not_ make him a supporter
of Hitler.

John Savard

On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:40:12 AM UTC-7, Paul S Person wrote:

> I don't think Putin or Russia is "fascist".
>
> I think Putin is a neo-commie. Whether Russia is or not I have no
> idea.

While ideology is just window-dressing indeed, the ideology of
Russia seems clear.
Nothing about calling on the workers of the world to unite
and throw off their chains. This is why Trump and the Republicans
found the Russian so warm and fuzzy; yes, he's a dictator, but he's
a nonthreatening kind of dictator. Not riling up the unions. No, he's
like Hitler and Mussolini, someone we could learn from to put some
starch in our country!
His subversion of the Orthodox Church in Russia again shows how
he is operating.
His anti-homosexual measures - aside from ingratiating himself
with extreme conservatives, to me I think it is intended, by showing
him as illiberal, to send a clear threatening message to one segment
of Russian society that is immune to his nationalistic blandishments.
The "rootless cosmopolites".

And, of course, another respect in which Putin is no neo-Communist
is because he is no Socialist. Enterprises in Russia are privately owned
by oligarchs who are Putin's cronies.
Russia is basically a nation run by organized crime.

John Savard

On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:55:00 AM UTC-7, Paul S Person wrote:

> Depending on how things shake out, the Russians could /lose/ the
> Crimea again. It all depends on how desperate they are to get the
> sanctions reduced, and how badly they do militarily.

If Russia does not "win" this war, it will definitely have to completely
withdraw from the Ukraine before sanctions will be removed.

John Savard

On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:50:55 AM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
This is why Trump and the Republicans
> found the Russian
bear
> so warm and fuzzy; yes, he's a dictator, but he's
> a nonthreatening kind of dictator. Not riling up the unions. No, he's
> like Hitler and Mussolini, someone we could learn from to put some
> starch in our country!

....I didn't complete my edit.

John Savard

On 2022-03-05 10:50 a.m., Quadibloc wrote:
> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:40:12 AM UTC-7, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>> I don't think Putin or Russia is "fascist".
>>
>> I think Putin is a neo-commie. Whether Russia is or not I have no
>> idea.
>
> While ideology is just window-dressing indeed, the ideology of
> Russia seems clear.
> Nothing about calling on the workers of the world to unite
> and throw off their chains. This is why Trump and the Republicans
> found the Russian so warm and fuzzy; yes, he's a dictator, but he's
> a nonthreatening kind of dictator. Not riling up the unions. No, he's
> like Hitler and Mussolini, someone we could learn from to put some
> starch in our country!
> His subversion of the Orthodox Church in Russia again shows how
> he is operating.
> His anti-homosexual measures - aside from ingratiating himself
> with extreme conservatives, to me I think it is intended, by showing
> him as illiberal, to send a clear threatening message to one segment
> of Russian society that is immune to his nationalistic blandishments.
> The "rootless cosmopolites".
>
> And, of course, another respect in which Putin is no neo-Communist
> is because he is no Socialist. Enterprises in Russia are privately owned
> by oligarchs who are Putin's cronies.
> Russia is basically a nation run by organized crime.
>
> John Savard

The correct word is "authoritarian". However "fascist" is often
substituted for the correct word because people don't like five syllable
words.

On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 11:21:42 PM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:
> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 9:12:23 PM UTC-5, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 20:16:26 -0600, Lynn McGuire
> > <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >How you can make this about Trump is amazing. Trump has nothing to do
> > >with Ukraine at all. It is Biden's son Hunter who took millions of
> > >dollars in bribes in the kleptocracy known as Ukraine. And 10% for the
> > >Big Guy.
> > Exactly.
> > >BTW, Russia and Ukraine grow 29% of the wheat in the world. Do you like
> > >bread ? Get ready to pay $10 for loaf of bread.
> > And even if you could get bread you wouldn't have to turn on the
> > kitchen lights as you could see the bread glowing in the dark!
> We grow a lot of wheat, rye, etc here in the States. During the
> pandemic I learned how to make my mother's soda bread.
> It tastes way better than the generic wheat bread I buy at the
> local Aldi.
>
> I used to live within walking distance of a great bakery that sells
> great bread that I suppose would be called "artisanal." "Real bread"
> would be my term for it. Loaves there are between $6 -$10 each.
> I used to have to freeze half, because they didn't have preservatives
> in them, and would go bad before I could eat half of one.
>
> I may "practice bake" this weekend, before I make some soda
> bread for the 17th.

Seeing as the US exports about 7 times as much grain as it imports,
I'm not too worried.

Pt

On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 11:00:14 AM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:

> The correct word is "authoritarian". However "fascist" is often
> substituted for the correct word because people don't like five syllable
> words.

In addition to being fascist, Russia is also authoritarian.

These words, however, refer to different domains.

One can be fascist instead of being Communist.

One can be authoritarian instead of being totalitarian. China is
totalitarian, because it closely regulates _all_ private organizations
above a certain size, even if they are entirely nonpolitical. All
churches in China, for example, are operated by the government.

So I used the term fascist because I was talking about the
direction of Russia's surface politics - is it right wing or
left wing? Not about the severity of repression and political
control in Russia.

John Savard

On 2022-03-05 3:14 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 02:10:34 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 3:03:36 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> None of that is going to happen without someone going in and
>>> conquering the place, with the associated millions of dead even if
>>> there is no nuclear war.
>>
>> Precisely. And with no justice, there can be no permanent peace.
>>
>> I wish the United States could completely eliminate the risk of nuclear
>> attack from Russia, and go in and conquer the place in a similar fashion
>> to, say, the initial stages of the war on Iraq, but wishes are not realities.
>>
>> What I hope Putin's adventure will trigger, though, is the United States
>> going into an arms race. Matching - and far exceeding - Russia's
>> hypersonic cruise missiles. Dusting off the Strategic Defense Initiative.
>> And so on and so forth.
>>
>> If we're lucky, not just Russia, but even China could be brought to
>> economic collapse, repeating the original fall of the Soviet Union.
>
> I'm getting sick of this "hypersonic missiles" crap. They have a turn
> radius measured in tens of miles--they can't actually conduct evasive
> maneuvers, and they can't hit a moving target, so they're basically
> just an expensive unreliable alternative to ICBMs.

Riiiiiight.

Because a hypersonic missile couldn't POSSIBLY...

....oh, I don't know...

....SLOW DOWN...

....in the final phase of attacking a target.

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in
news:igr72hdclin0o6el89duhq4hrp9lv5e9rk@4ax.com:

> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 13:27:30 -0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com
> (James Nicoll) wrote:
>
>>In article <svupsn$13s$3@dont-email.me>, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com>
>>wrote:
>>>On 2022-03-04 7:46 p.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 3/4/2022 7:48 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 6:17:42 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> John, the Russians lost 25,000,000 people in 1941 fighting
>>>>>> off the Germans. The Russians are not going to allow any of
>>>>>> their buffer countries like Ukraine invite the Germans back
>>>>>> in. Not gonna happen and Ukraine knew it. Instead Ukraine
>>>>>> was dancing around the place trying to get NATO in.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Russian people are not responsible for the aggression
>>>>> that the Ukrainian people are suffering. The decision to
>>>>> invade the Ukraine was made by one man, Vladimir Putin.
>>>>>
>>>>> The people of the Ukraine are human beings. Therefore, they
>>>>> have the right to live under a democratic government. And
>>>>> that right should be absolutely secure. It should no more be
>>>>> a possibility that Russia would invade the Ukraine than that
>>>>> Russia would invade Texas.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, there is indeed a historical strategic doctrine held in
>>>>> some quarters
>>>>> in Russia that it needs buffer states. But this should
>>>>> properly be viewed as a hallucination in the disordered mind
>>>>> of Vladimir Putin, not as anything
>>>>> with any merit or validity.
>>>>>
>>>>> Russia invaded. If NATO had been in the Ukraine, Russia
>>>>> would not have invaded;
>>>>> you don't see it invading any of the countries in NATO, do
>>>>> you?
>>>>>
>>>>> So don't be an apologist for tyranny.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't suggest, in any way, that either the Ukraine or the
>>>>> United States (through its support of the Ukraine, as
>>>>> opposed to its failure to support the Ukraine strongly
>>>>> enough) is responsible for what is going on in the Ukraine
>>>>> at this time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Although the nations of the Free World cannot take up arms
>>>>> against Russia, and I have no quarrel with discretion and
>>>>> restraint for the purpose of avoiding global thermonuclear
>>>>> war, let us make no mistake about it: in every other way, we
>>>>> are now at war with Russia and with Belarus, and our every
>>>>> word and action should be guided by this fact. Because we
>>>>> can expect to be held accountable if we fail to meet this
>>>>> standard.
>>>>>
>>>>> John Savard
>>>>
>>>> John, I am not apologizing for anyone and you know it.  I am
>>>> simply stating the fact that people are poking the bear and
>>>> have gotten bitten.
>>>
>>>You're a liar or a fool.
>>
>>Alternatively, a Republican, which is to say a Putinist.
>
> You might want to get something done about that knee.
>
Or just take his meds.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.