On 27/01/2022 10:03, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>> ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
>>> separate from the whole.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>> that could be reversed.
>
> To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee) probably thought
> it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly not happening
> SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to rebrand it
> 10 years down the road.
>
> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse kissing
> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>

Could have been worse, there was a vociferous campaign to have it named
the Princess Diana Line, after they failed to get Heathrow renamed after
her.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>"Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>> that could be reversed.
>
>I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben (yes,
>I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>
>I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.

What tickets might not be valid?

Paper ones bought from tube station TVM, Granddad, or something else.
--
Roland Perry

On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>>> that could be reversed.
>>
>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>
>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>
> What tickets might not be valid?

That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.

>
> Paper ones bought from tube station TVM, Granddad, or something else.

In message <ssu843$k3d$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:53:07 on Thu, 27 Jan
2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...

>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>
>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to
>>>it as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line.
>>>It's like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used
>>>to be officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big
>>>Ben (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>
>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.

>> What tickets might not be valid?
>
>That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.

It would help if there was at least one candidate for us to discuss.

Apart from National Rail barcode tickets, which we know TfL barriers
can't cope with at all, so no change there then.

>> Paper ones bought from tube station TVM, Granddad, or something
>>else.
>

--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:

>On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>
>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>
>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>
>> What tickets might not be valid?
>
>That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.

You might be interested in this discussion:
<https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.216352/>

On 2022-01-27 12:48:14 +0000, NY said:

> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>> that could be reversed.
>
> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben (yes,
> I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>
> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.

Tickets will be valid. TfL have made it very clear that, aside from
the special fares for Hayes and Harlington-Heathrow that correspond to
the premium previously charged for Heathrow Connect, Crossrail will be
fully integrated into the rest of the TfL ticketing system, including
Oyster/contactless. See
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2018/march/mayor-of-london-announces-tfl-fares-will-apply-to-elizabeth-line

Robin

On 2022-01-27 13:53:07 +0000, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk said:

> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>
>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben (yes,
>>> I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>
>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>
>> What tickets might not be valid?
>
> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.

Who has been unwilling to state? TfL have certainly stated that the
ticketing and fares structure will be fully integrated with the rest of
the TfL services (ie Underground)

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2018/march/mayor-of-london-announces-tfl-fares-will-apply-to-elizabeth-line

Robin

In message <1sa5vg1btas6murc8lsm3kbted11miadrs@4ax.com>, at 14:26:32 on
Thu, 27 Jan 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>
>>On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>
>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>>
>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>
>>That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>
>You might be interested in this discussion:
><https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.216352/>

The thing that everyone seems to have tuned out is that one of the main
reasons for Crossrail is as a "Central Line Relief", so why would a fare
from Romford to Bond Street on a through train on the Elizabeth Line, be
any different to changing at Liverpool St to the Central Line?

Unless they want an "EL premium", like the extra fares for many routes
to Stratford via StP and HS1.

One major operational issue is that pax using HS1 need to navigate a
gateline to validate the premium fare, but EL pax are probably already
on the train.
--
Roland Perry

"Bob" <email@domain.com> wrote in message news:ssubbc$ftu$1@dont-email.me...
>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>
>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>
> Who has been unwilling to state? TfL have certainly stated that the
> ticketing and fares structure will be fully integrated with the rest of
> the TfL services (ie Underground)
>
> https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2018/march/mayor-of-london-announces-tfl-fares-will-apply-to-elizabeth-line

Sounds good, but I'll believe it when I see it. I'd like to see any NR
ticket that includes cross-London travel to allow Liz-Line trains to be used
as an alternative to LT and NR trains by any reasonable route. And for Liz
Line trains to be included in the all-zones one-day travel card (for as long
as that lasts). But I bet there are restrictions.

On 2022-01-27 14:59:34 +0000, NY said:

> "Bob" <email@domain.com> wrote in message news:ssubbc$ftu$1@dont-email.me...
>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>
>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>
>> Who has been unwilling to state? TfL have certainly stated that the
>> ticketing and fares structure will be fully integrated with the rest of
>> the TfL services (ie Underground)
>>
>> https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2018/march/mayor-of-london-announces-tfl-fares-will-apply-to-elizabeth-line
>>
>
> Sounds good, but I'll believe it when I see it. I'd like to see any NR
> ticket that includes cross-London travel to allow Liz-Line trains to be
> used as an alternative to LT and NR trains by any reasonable route. And
> for Liz Line trains to be included in the all-zones one-day travel card
> (for as long as that lasts). But I bet there are restrictions.

Why wouldn't it be? All of the other rail networks administered by TfL
(Underground, Overground, DLR, Trams) are integrated into the general
ticketing scheme (Trams being treated as buses rather than trains for
ticketing purposes), why would this line suddenly not be? Moreover,
how would it not be, given the extent to which the stations are
integrated with the Underground stations tha they meet, with
behind-the-ticket-barrier passages linking the various Crossrail and
Underground platforms. The whole system has been designed from the
ground up (or should that be down) to be fully integrated.

Robin

On 27/01/2022 12:10, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 27.01.2022 um 12:04 schrieb Sam Wilson:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the
>>>>>>>>> underground?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>
>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>
>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>> constructed,
>>>> and often third rail.
>>>
>>> My understanding of S-Bahn has always been that they share mainline
>>> tracks
>>> where appropriate; the Wikipedia article on S-Bahn specifically cites
>>> Berlin and Hamburg as exceptions to this principle.
>>
>> Sharing tracks certainly seems to be the case around Mannheim.
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine-Neckar_S-Bahn>
>
> S-Bahn in the past stood for fast (compared to underground), frequent
> suburban services with more stops than main line trains, optimized for
> fast passenger entry/exit rather than for comfort; a tunnel section in
> the City core is expected but not necessary.
> In Hamburg and Berlin, S-Bahn had dedicated tracks due to third-rail
> electrification (Hamburg has a few shared sections).
> In Frankfurt, Munich, Nuremberg, Stuttgart, S-Bahn had dedicated 96cm
> platforms to enable 'no steps inside' with 1970's technology
> <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_420>
>
> Since the 1990's, 'S-Bahn' became a general brand for metropolitain
> suburban services, some (Ruhrgebiet) using locomotives and normal local
> carriages instead of EMUs, some only offering hourly rather than
> frequent services on the lines, some (Rhein-Neckar) not providing any
> dedicated tracks or platforms.
> Since then, even Karlsruhe (not even a dedicated 'metropolitain area')
> put their long-distance 'tram-trains' under the S-Bahn brand.
>
> Rolf
Commuter rail, you mean?

I've always seen a difference between S-Bahn and commuter rail.

On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in
>>>>>>>>> the know
>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if
>>>>>>> WFH continues
>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the
>>>>>>> underground?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the
>>>>>> name,
>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as
>>>>>> LU, LO
>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for
>>>>>> each of
>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>
>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>
>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>
>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
>> and often third rail.
>
> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.

There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.

Then there is commuter rail, such as NJ Transit Rail or Metro-North
Railroad, which can go almost 100 miles out.

In Berlin and Hamburg
> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,  and
> largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards to which
> the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that sense Overground

I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
Africa's Metrorail services.

> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.

I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
MTsD to be closer to RER.

On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:

> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>
>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>
>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
>>> and often third rail.
>>
>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>
> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.

In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to an
S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated metro.

> Then there is commuter rail, such as NJ Transit Rail or Metro-North
> Railroad, which can go almost 100 miles out.

You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service). In
terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition as
different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin where
it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is little
more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.

> In Berlin and Hamburg
>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,  and
>> largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards to which
>> the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that sense Overground
>
> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
> Africa's Metrorail services.

What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER? Asside from
one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.

>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>
> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
> MTsD to be closer to RER.

That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
S-Bahn and RER.

Robin

On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>
>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>
>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>>
>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>
>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>
> You might be interested in this discussion:
> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.216352/>
Thanks.

In summary. No one has the slightest idea.

Am 27.01.2022 um 16:55 schrieb hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk:
> On 27/01/2022 12:10, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 27.01.2022 um 12:04 schrieb Sam Wilson:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>> constructed,
>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>
>>>> My understanding of S-Bahn has always been that they share mainline
>>>> tracks
>>>> where appropriate; the Wikipedia article on S-Bahn specifically cites
>>>> Berlin and Hamburg as exceptions to this principle.
>>>
>>> Sharing tracks certainly seems to be the case around Mannheim.
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine-Neckar_S-Bahn>
>>
>> S-Bahn in the past stood for fast (compared to underground), frequent
>> suburban services with more stops than main line trains, optimized for
>> fast passenger entry/exit rather than for comfort; a tunnel section in
>> the City core is expected but not necessary.
>> In Hamburg and Berlin, S-Bahn had dedicated tracks due to third-rail
>> electrification (Hamburg has a few shared sections).
>> In Frankfurt, Munich, Nuremberg, Stuttgart, S-Bahn had dedicated 96cm
>> platforms to enable 'no steps inside' with 1970's technology
>> <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_420>
>>
>> Since the 1990's, 'S-Bahn' became a general brand for metropolitain
>> suburban services, some (Ruhrgebiet) using locomotives and normal
>> local carriages instead of EMUs, some only offering hourly rather than
>> frequent services on the lines, some (Rhein-Neckar) not providing any
>> dedicated tracks or platforms.
>> Since then, even Karlsruhe (not even a dedicated 'metropolitain area')
>> put their long-distance 'tram-trains' under the S-Bahn brand.
>>
>> Rolf
> Commuter rail, you mean?
>
> I've always seen a difference between S-Bahn and commuter rail.

S-Bahn is definitely about getting into the 'City' (and home from the
theater after the show), typically with an all-day fixed time table and
it is definitely a network of various lines rather than individual
commuter lines, more Thameslink than London Overground.
Commuter rail hass good peak hour service and crappy evening and weekend
service.

I'd compare 'S-Bahn' mostly to 'Metro' systems.

Rolf

On 27/01/2022 14:48, Bob wrote:
> On 2022-01-27 13:53:07 +0000, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk said:
>
>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better.
>>>>> We can
>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a
>>>>> decision
>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to
>>>> it as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line.
>>>> It's like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used
>>>> to be officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big
>>>> Ben (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>
>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>>
>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>
>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state.  As I said it'll
>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>
> Who has been unwilling to state?  TfL have certainly stated that the
> ticketing and fares structure will be fully integrated with the rest of
> the TfL services (ie Underground)
>
> https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2018/march/mayor-of-london-announces-tfl-fares-will-apply-to-elizabeth-line

That's dated before the covid crisis so may well be out of date
following the government taking control of TfL finances.

In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>
>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>better. We can
>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>>>
>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>
>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>
>><https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>16352/>
>Thanks.
>
>In summary. No one has the slightest idea.

Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
--
Roland Perry

On 27/01/2022 17:10, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better.
>>>>>>> We can
>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a
>>>>>>> decision
>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer
>>>>>> to it
>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>>>>
>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>
>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state.  As I said it'll
>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>>  You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>
>>> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>> 16352/>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> In summary.  No one has the slightest idea.
>
> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?

Since we've moved on to ticketing I suspect the answer is "yes".

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>> better. We can
>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>>>>
>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>
>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>
>>> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>> 16352/>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
>
> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?

Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
that rail is within the zone system. Why would Crossrail be any different?
I get the feeling folk are looking for problems that don’t really exist for
the vast majority of users. Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of
everything?

In message <ssumrf$gm4$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:04:31 on Thu, 27 Jan
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>>> better. We can
>>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a
>>>>>>>>decision
>>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>>
>>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>>> 16352/>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
>>
>> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
>
>Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
>that rail is within the zone system.

Yes and no. I used to visit somewhere near Vauxhall, and it definitely
cost more to get back to the East End via Waterloo Mainline (then
probably W&C and Central Line), than exclusively using the tube.
--
Roland Perry

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 27/01/2022 12:10, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 27.01.2022 um 12:04 schrieb Sam Wilson:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the
>>>>>>>>>> underground?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>> constructed,
>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>
>>>> My understanding of S-Bahn has always been that they share mainline
>>>> tracks
>>>> where appropriate; the Wikipedia article on S-Bahn specifically cites
>>>> Berlin and Hamburg as exceptions to this principle.
>>>
>>> Sharing tracks certainly seems to be the case around Mannheim.
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine-Neckar_S-Bahn>
>>
>> S-Bahn in the past stood for fast (compared to underground), frequent
>> suburban services with more stops than main line trains, optimized for
>> fast passenger entry/exit rather than for comfort; a tunnel section in
>> the City core is expected but not necessary.
>> In Hamburg and Berlin, S-Bahn had dedicated tracks due to third-rail
>> electrification (Hamburg has a few shared sections).
>> In Frankfurt, Munich, Nuremberg, Stuttgart, S-Bahn had dedicated 96cm
>> platforms to enable 'no steps inside' with 1970's technology
>> <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_420>
>>
>> Since the 1990's, 'S-Bahn' became a general brand for metropolitain
>> suburban services, some (Ruhrgebiet) using locomotives and normal local
>> carriages instead of EMUs, some only offering hourly rather than
>> frequent services on the lines, some (Rhein-Neckar) not providing any
>> dedicated tracks or platforms.
>> Since then, even Karlsruhe (not even a dedicated 'metropolitain area')
>> put their long-distance 'tram-trains' under the S-Bahn brand.
>>
>> Rolf
> Commuter rail, you mean?
>
> I've always seen a difference between S-Bahn and commuter rail.

Not really, IMX (and a few years ago I was going quite often to Germany for
work meetings, as well as travelling there for steam such as the Harz
network, the various narrow-gauge lines in Saxony and the Chemnitz steam
festival).

--
Jeremy Double

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in
>>>>>>>>>> the know
>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if
>>>>>>>> WFH continues
>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the
>>>>>>>> underground?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the
>>>>>>> name,
>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as
>>>>>>> LU, LO
>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for
>>>>>>> each of
>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>
>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>
>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
>>> and often third rail.
>>
>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>
> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>
> Then there is commuter rail, such as NJ Transit Rail or Metro-North
> Railroad, which can go almost 100 miles out.
>
>
> In Berlin and Hamburg
>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,  and
>> largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards to which
>> the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that sense Overground
>
> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
> Africa's Metrorail services.

S-Bahn and RER are very similar, IMO.

--
Jeremy Double

On 27/01/2022 18:04, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>>> better. We can
>>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>>
>>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>>> 16352/>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
>>
>> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
>
> Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
> that rail is within the zone system. Why would Crossrail be any different?
> I get the feeling folk are looking for problems that don’t really exist for
> the vast majority of users. Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of
> everything?

There's bound to be one outlier that doesn't have edge cases...

On 27/01/2022 18:04, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>>> better. We can
>>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>>
>>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>>> 16352/>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
>>
>> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
>
> Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
> that rail is within the zone system. Why would Crossrail be any different?
> I get the feeling folk are looking for problems that don’t really exist for
> the vast majority of users. Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of
> everything?
>
All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 27/01/2022 18:04, Tweed wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>>>> better. We can
>>>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>>>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>>>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>>>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>>>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>>>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>>>> 16352/>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
>>>
>>> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
>>
>> Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
>> that rail is within the zone system. Why would Crossrail be any different?
>> I get the feeling folk are looking for problems that don’t really exist for
>> the vast majority of users. Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of
>> everything?
>>
> All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
> but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
>

Well does it have a separate gate line to stations with which it shares
with the conventional underground? If not, how will they know how you get
from one NR terminus to another?