Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <p2t7vgtd7ntvnmss0k067921m6fhtfduhn@4ax.com>, at 13:49:44 on
> Fri, 28 Jan 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 12:56:47 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <st0iab$r5g$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:59:23 on Fri, 28 Jan
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ssut48$ca$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:51:36 on Thu, 27 Jan 2022,
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 18:04, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>>>>>>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better. We can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a decision
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refer to it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>>>>>>>>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>>>>>>>>>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>>>>>>>>>> 16352/>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal
>>>>>>>> system, where that rail is within the zone system. Why would
>>>>>>>> Crossrail be any different? I get the feeling folk are looking for
>>>>>>>> problems that don’t really exist for the vast majority of users.
>>>>>>>> Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of everything?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
>>>>>>> but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well does it have a separate gate line to stations with which it shares
>>>>>> with the conventional underground? If not, how will they know how you get
>>>>>> from one NR terminus to another?
>>>>>
>>>>> The only changes his trip involve is GWR-EL at Reading, and EL-GA at
>>>>> Liverpool St.
>>>>
>>>> There will be gate lines between them at Liverpool St.
>>>
>>> Won't the only gate line that matters be the one onto the GA platforms,
>>> which are hardly likely to refuse a National Rail ticket on GA metals.
>>
>> What about exiting through the TfL gateline?
>
> Why would that reject the ticket, given the person had just arrived on a
> valid TfL train all the way from Paddington/Reading.

But not passed through any TfL gates till that point in the journey.

On 2022-01-28 22:23:29 +0000, Sam Wilson said:

> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-01-28 09:48:33 +0000, NY said:
>>
>>> "Bob" <email@domain.com> wrote in message news:st0dgv$pna$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>>
>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>
>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>
>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>
>>>> While the characteristic of peak hours only, one way tidal flow is not
>>>> a universal characteristic, it is a feature of several systems, and in
>>>> some discussion of the systems in operation, some people do make the
>>>> distinction between commuter rail, with this peculiar characteristic,
>>>> and regional or suburban rail, to imply a more consistent service
>>>> pattern. I just thought it was worth mentioning this in order to avoid
>>>> the potential for misunderstanding how terms are used. For example,
>>>> from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_rail_in_North_America
>>>
>>> If the trains have to run from the suburbs to the city in the morning,
>>> what is the disadvantage of them carrying passengers in the opposite
>>> direction (city to suburbs) rather than running lots of trains as ECS
>>> in one direction and passenger-carrying in the other?
>>
>> If you would believe it, the approach is usually to have as many train
>> sets as there are morning and evening services, with each one spending
>> the night in a siding at the end of the line, then running one service
>> to the city, where it then parks in a siding and returns to the suburb
>> in the evening. Part of the reason for this is that these kinds of
>> services often run over single track with significant freight use, so
>> there are simply no paths for them to do anything mroe than one run in
>> in the morning and one out in the evening.
>
> That was pretty much the service pattern of the GO trains in Toronto when I
> was there in the late 90s; I don’t know if they’ve changed now - it’s
> difficult to find a timetable on the GOtransit site.

That is certainly how GO started out, and how it operated for many
years. It is now very much working its way into beign a more useful
regional suburban railway netwrok with proper all day service on most
of its lines and now elecrifying several key routes. The GO network is
in the process of transforming itself from "commuter rail" in this
narrow sense into something more like an S-Bahn or RER for the GTA now,
much to the benefit of all involved.

Robin

On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>>>
>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>>> metro.
>>>>
>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>
>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>
>>>> Huh?
>>>>
>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>
>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>
>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>
>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>>>>
>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>
>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>
>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>
>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>> whereas
>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>
>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer
>>>> to RER.
>>>
>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>
> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
> was run by East Berlin,

On 28/01/2022 09:40, Bob wrote:
> On 2022-01-27 23:16:16 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>
>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>
>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed
>>>>>>>>>>>> now if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same
>>>>>>>>>>> level as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see
>>>>>>>>>>> roundels for each of
>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating
>>>>>> on shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>>
>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>> metro.
>>>
>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>
>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>
>>>
>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North
>>>> American context, as that often is used for systems that are peak
>>>> hours one way only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in
>>>> the morning and from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no
>>>> other service).
>>>
>>> Huh?
>>>
>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East
>>> run in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of
>>> these services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>
>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>
>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such
>>> as CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley
>>> Line, but they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>
>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>
>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear
>>>> definition as different cities use the term for different things,
>>>> from Berlin where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like
>>>> Dresden where it is little more than branding applied to
>>>> conventional suburban services.
>>>>
>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a
>>>>> cross between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from
>>>>> South Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>
>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside
>>>> from one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking
>>>> countries, they are functionally interchangable, with for example,
>>>> the Munich S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>
>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>
>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the
>>>>> new MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>
>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>
>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>> whereas RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>
>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer
>>> to RER.
>>>
>>
>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>
> Historically S-Bahn was intended to mean Schnellbahn, but it has come to
> be a term in its own right, with no consistent "meaning".  In most
> places, though, a Stadtbahn is something akin to the Belgian concept of
> a pre-metro, where a tram network has been built out with significant
> off-street running, often in tunnel, and often with high platforms. The
> Manchester Metrolink has a lot of the characteristics of a Stadtbahn.
> It's essentially a half-way house between tram and metro, with some
> characteristics of each.
>
> Robin
>

Is that not what a Stadtbahn is, however?

On 28/01/2022 02:47, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>
>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>
>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>
>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>
>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service, whereas
>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>
>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer to RER.
>>
>>
>
> Haven't we already determined in this thread, that only two cities' S-Bahn
> networks are 3rd rail?
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
>
I think that I missed it, though now I know. In any event, I would
consider the SSLs as well as PATH and PATCO akin to the Hamburg and
Berlin S-Bahns.

On 28/01/2022 10:26, Bob wrote:
> On 2022-01-28 09:48:33 +0000, NY said:
>
>> "Bob" <email@domain.com> wrote in message
>> news:st0dgv$pna$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North
>>>>> American context, as that often is used for systems that are peak
>>>>> hours one way only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in
>>>>> the morning and from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no
>>>>> other service).
>>>>
>>>> Huh?
>>>>
>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East
>>>> run in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of
>>>> these services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>
>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such
>>>> as CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley
>>>> Line, but they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>
>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>
>>> While the characteristic of peak hours only, one way tidal flow is
>>> not a universal characteristic, it is a feature of several systems,
>>> and in some discussion of the systems in operation, some people do
>>> make the distinction between commuter rail, with this peculiar
>>> characteristic, and regional or suburban rail, to imply a more
>>> consistent service pattern.  I just thought it was worth mentioning
>>> this in order to avoid the potential for misunderstanding how terms
>>> are used.  For example, from
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_rail_in_North_America
>>
>> If the trains have to run from the suburbs to the city in the morning,
>> what is the disadvantage of them carrying passengers in the opposite
>> direction (city to suburbs) rather than running lots of trains as ECS
>> in one direction and passenger-carrying in the other?
>
> If you would believe it, the approach is usually to have as many train
> sets as there are morning and evening services, with each one spending
> the night in a siding at the end of the line, then running one service
> to the city, where it then parks in a siding and returns to the suburb
> in the evening.

Yes, there are such lines. I think, however, that this is becoming more
the exception than the rule.

> Part of the reason for this is that these kinds of
> services often run over single track with significant freight use, so
> there are simply no paths for them to do anything mroe than one run in
> in the morning and one out in the evening.

Where, Chicago?

On 28/01/2022 22:23, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-01-28 09:48:33 +0000, NY said:
>>
>>> "Bob" <email@domain.com> wrote in message news:st0dgv$pna$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>>
>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>
>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>
>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>
>>>> While the characteristic of peak hours only, one way tidal flow is not
>>>> a universal characteristic, it is a feature of several systems, and in
>>>> some discussion of the systems in operation, some people do make the
>>>> distinction between commuter rail, with this peculiar characteristic,
>>>> and regional or suburban rail, to imply a more consistent service
>>>> pattern. I just thought it was worth mentioning this in order to avoid
>>>> the potential for misunderstanding how terms are used. For example,
>>>> from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_rail_in_North_America
>>>
>>> If the trains have to run from the suburbs to the city in the morning,
>>> what is the disadvantage of them carrying passengers in the opposite
>>> direction (city to suburbs) rather than running lots of trains as ECS
>>> in one direction and passenger-carrying in the other?
>>
>> If you would believe it, the approach is usually to have as many train
>> sets as there are morning and evening services, with each one spending
>> the night in a siding at the end of the line, then running one service
>> to the city, where it then parks in a siding and returns to the suburb
>> in the evening. Part of the reason for this is that these kinds of
>> services often run over single track with significant freight use, so
>> there are simply no paths for them to do anything mroe than one run in
>> in the morning and one out in the evening.
>
> That was pretty much the service pattern of the GO trains in Toronto when I
> was there in the late 90s; I don’t know if they’ve changed now - it’s
> difficult to find a timetable on the GOtransit site.
>

Service was running on Montreal's Deux-Montagnes Line as well as on the
Dorion–Rigaud and on the Delson-Candiac lines outside of peak hours and
on weekends, AIUI.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>
>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>
>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>>
>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>
>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>
>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>
>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>
>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>> whereas
>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>
>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer
>>>>> to RER.
>>>>
>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>
>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
>> was run by East Berlin,
>
> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>
> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>
> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
> respective sides.
>

In message <st1qj2$9f1$2@dont-email.me>, at 22:26:42 on Fri, 28 Jan
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
>>>>>>>> but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well does it have a separate gate line to stations with which it shares
>>>>>>> with the conventional underground? If not, how will they know
>>>>>>>how you get
>>>>>>> from one NR terminus to another?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only changes his trip involve is GWR-EL at Reading, and EL-GA at
>>>>>> Liverpool St.
>>>>>
>>>>> There will be gate lines between them at Liverpool St.
>>>>
>>>> Won't the only gate line that matters be the one onto the GA platforms,
>>>> which are hardly likely to refuse a National Rail ticket on GA metals.
>>>
>>> What about exiting through the TfL gateline?
>>
>> Why would that reject the ticket, given the person had just arrived on a
>> valid TfL train all the way from Paddington/Reading.
>
>But not passed through any TfL gates till that point in the journey.

Not sure why that matters. If I get off a Thameslink train at
Farringdon, I probably haven't been trough any before, either.

Presumably we expect a TfL gateline at Paddington unless there's an
"airside" walking route from every platform, which seems unlikely.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <st1qj2$9f1$2@dont-email.me>, at 22:26:42 on Fri, 28 Jan
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
>>>>>>>>> but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well does it have a separate gate line to stations with which it shares
>>>>>>>> with the conventional underground? If not, how will they know
>>>>>>>> how you get
>>>>>>>> from one NR terminus to another?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The only changes his trip involve is GWR-EL at Reading, and EL-GA at
>>>>>>> Liverpool St.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There will be gate lines between them at Liverpool St.
>>>>>
>>>>> Won't the only gate line that matters be the one onto the GA platforms,
>>>>> which are hardly likely to refuse a National Rail ticket on GA metals.
>>>>
>>>> What about exiting through the TfL gateline?
>>>
>>> Why would that reject the ticket, given the person had just arrived on a
>>> valid TfL train all the way from Paddington/Reading.
>>
>> But not passed through any TfL gates till that point in the journey.
>
> Not sure why that matters. If I get off a Thameslink train at
> Farringdon, I probably haven't been trough any before, either.
>
> Presumably we expect a TfL gateline at Paddington unless there's an
> "airside" walking route from every platform, which seems unlikely.

The EL will have its own gateline at Paddington, plus there's a new
underground passageway to the Bakerloo line (presumably with pink
validators). I think there will be similar underground links to the LU
platforms at the other shared central London stations.

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 15:32:30 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:36:26 +0000
>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>> On 27/01/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse
>>>>> kissing
>>>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>>>
>>>> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>>>> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>>
>>> The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
>>> isn't. This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
>>> proportion of users.
>>
>> The other problem is that the central service which will be the most used
>> is going to be buggered up by problems on network rail either side just as
>> happens on the east london line which should never have been extended beyond
>its
>> previous southern termini IMO given how good interchange already was.
>>
>>
>
>With approximately half the service turning back at Paddington, there's
>scope for keeping a decent service through the core even if no trains are
>managing to run through to/from the GWML.

Problem is when the entire service has to turn back plus a load of trains
on the e/b waiting to enter the tunnel. I suspect things will quickly go to
pot especially if the eastern section plays up at the same time. We all know
how well reversing works on tube lines when they have issues on the periphery.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:12:16 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> Not sure why that matters. If I get off a Thameslink train at
>> Farringdon, I probably haven't been trough any before, either.
>>
>> Presumably we expect a TfL gateline at Paddington unless there's an
>> "airside" walking route from every platform, which seems unlikely.
>
>The EL will have its own gateline at Paddington, plus there's a new
>underground passageway to the Bakerloo line (presumably with pink
>validators).

What could possibly go wrong. No doubt many PAYG users will forget to tap
and get ripped off by TfL for the max fare. One can only hope there's some
joined up thinking and if someone taps in at Reading then they can hop onto
a tube in central london and exit at a tube station elsewhere without having to
do TfLs job for it by telling them the route they took.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:12:16 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Not sure why that matters. If I get off a Thameslink train at
>>> Farringdon, I probably haven't been trough any before, either.
>>>
>>> Presumably we expect a TfL gateline at Paddington unless there's an
>>> "airside" walking route from every platform, which seems unlikely.
>>
>> The EL will have its own gateline at Paddington, plus there's a new
>> underground passageway to the Bakerloo line (presumably with pink
>> validators).
>
> What could possibly go wrong. No doubt many PAYG users will forget to tap
> and get ripped off by TfL for the max fare. One can only hope there's some
> joined up thinking and if someone taps in at Reading then they can hop onto
> a tube in central london and exit at a tube station elsewhere without having to
> do TfLs job for it by telling them the route they took.
>
>

Yes, that should be OK, but what happens if a GWR passenger from, say,
Oxford changes to the EL at Reading and leaves at Tottenham Court Road?
There's no gateline to pass through at Reading, and it's easy to miss the
pink validators.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:12:16 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Not sure why that matters. If I get off a Thameslink train at
>>>> Farringdon, I probably haven't been trough any before, either.
>>>>
>>>> Presumably we expect a TfL gateline at Paddington unless there's an
>>>> "airside" walking route from every platform, which seems unlikely.
>>>
>>> The EL will have its own gateline at Paddington, plus there's a new
>>> underground passageway to the Bakerloo line (presumably with pink
>>> validators).
>>
>> What could possibly go wrong. No doubt many PAYG users will forget to tap
>> and get ripped off by TfL for the max fare. One can only hope there's some
>> joined up thinking and if someone taps in at Reading then they can hop onto
>> a tube in central london and exit at a tube station elsewhere without having to
>> do TfLs job for it by telling them the route they took.
>>
>>
>
> Yes, that should be OK, but what happens if a GWR passenger from, say,
> Oxford changes to the EL at Reading and leaves at Tottenham Court Road?
> There's no gateline to pass through at Reading, and it's easy to miss the
> pink validators.
>
>

Not living in London I’m not overly familiar with the pink validators. Is
there any downside to tapping my credit card on one whenever I see one,
assuming that I am making an intentional journey on the system?

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:12:16 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Not sure why that matters. If I get off a Thameslink train at
>>>>> Farringdon, I probably haven't been trough any before, either.
>>>>>
>>>>> Presumably we expect a TfL gateline at Paddington unless there's an
>>>>> "airside" walking route from every platform, which seems unlikely.
>>>>
>>>> The EL will have its own gateline at Paddington, plus there's a new
>>>> underground passageway to the Bakerloo line (presumably with pink
>>>> validators).
>>>
>>> What could possibly go wrong. No doubt many PAYG users will forget to tap
>>> and get ripped off by TfL for the max fare. One can only hope there's some
>>> joined up thinking and if someone taps in at Reading then they can hop onto
>>> a tube in central london and exit at a tube station elsewhere without having to
>>> do TfLs job for it by telling them the route they took.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Yes, that should be OK, but what happens if a GWR passenger from, say,
>> Oxford changes to the EL at Reading and leaves at Tottenham Court Road?
>> There's no gateline to pass through at Reading, and it's easy to miss the
>> pink validators.
>>
>>
>
> Not living in London I’m not overly familiar with the pink validators. Is
> there any downside to tapping my credit card on one whenever I see one,
> assuming that I am making an intentional journey on the system?
>

There can be in some cases, as you might be taking a more expensive route
than the one TfL assumes.

In message <st36ib$kkq$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:15 on Sat, 29 Jan
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:12:16 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Not sure why that matters. If I get off a Thameslink train at
>>>>> Farringdon, I probably haven't been trough any before, either.
>>>>>
>>>>> Presumably we expect a TfL gateline at Paddington unless there's an
>>>>> "airside" walking route from every platform, which seems unlikely.
>>>>
>>>> The EL will have its own gateline at Paddington, plus there's a new
>>>> underground passageway to the Bakerloo line (presumably with pink
>>>> validators).
>>>
>>> What could possibly go wrong. No doubt many PAYG users will forget to tap
>>> and get ripped off by TfL for the max fare. One can only hope there's some
>>> joined up thinking and if someone taps in at Reading then they can hop onto
>>> a tube in central london and exit at a tube station elsewhere
>>>without having to
>>> do TfLs job for it by telling them the route they took.
>>
>> Yes, that should be OK, but what happens if a GWR passenger from, say,
>> Oxford changes to the EL at Reading and leaves at Tottenham Court Road?
>> There's no gateline to pass through at Reading, and it's easy to miss the
>> pink validators.
>
>Not living in London I’m not overly familiar with the pink validators. Is
>there any downside to tapping my credit card on one whenever I see one,
>assuming that I am making an intentional journey on the system?

As far as I'm aware the Pink validators are to leave an audit trail of
having travelled across London *not* through the central zone(s) and
thus potentially get a cheaper PAYG fare.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 11:52:25 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <st36ib$kkq$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:15 on Sat, 29 Jan
>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:12:16 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Not sure why that matters. If I get off a Thameslink train at
>>>>>> Farringdon, I probably haven't been trough any before, either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Presumably we expect a TfL gateline at Paddington unless there's an
>>>>>> "airside" walking route from every platform, which seems unlikely.
>>>>>
>>>>> The EL will have its own gateline at Paddington, plus there's a new
>>>>> underground passageway to the Bakerloo line (presumably with pink
>>>>> validators).
>>>>
>>>> What could possibly go wrong. No doubt many PAYG users will forget to tap
>>>> and get ripped off by TfL for the max fare. One can only hope there's some
>>>> joined up thinking and if someone taps in at Reading then they can hop onto
>>>> a tube in central london and exit at a tube station elsewhere
>>>>without having to
>>>> do TfLs job for it by telling them the route they took.
>>>
>>> Yes, that should be OK, but what happens if a GWR passenger from, say,
>>> Oxford changes to the EL at Reading and leaves at Tottenham Court Road?
>>> There's no gateline to pass through at Reading, and it's easy to miss the
>>> pink validators.
>>
>>Not living in London I’m not overly familiar with the pink validators. Is
>>there any downside to tapping my credit card on one whenever I see one,
>>assuming that I am making an intentional journey on the system?
>
>As far as I'm aware the Pink validators are to leave an audit trail of
>having travelled across London *not* through the central zone(s) and
>thus potentially get a cheaper PAYG fare.

Yes, that's the idea, but I can think of at least one case where using a validator would increase the fare you pay.

On 29/01/2022 12:52, Recliner wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 11:52:25 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <st36ib$kkq$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:15 on Sat, 29 Jan
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:12:16 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> Not sure why that matters. If I get off a Thameslink train at
>>>>>>> Farringdon, I probably haven't been trough any before, either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Presumably we expect a TfL gateline at Paddington unless there's an
>>>>>>> "airside" walking route from every platform, which seems unlikely.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The EL will have its own gateline at Paddington, plus there's a new
>>>>>> underground passageway to the Bakerloo line (presumably with pink
>>>>>> validators).
>>>>>
>>>>> What could possibly go wrong. No doubt many PAYG users will forget to tap
>>>>> and get ripped off by TfL for the max fare. One can only hope there's some
>>>>> joined up thinking and if someone taps in at Reading then they can hop onto
>>>>> a tube in central london and exit at a tube station elsewhere
>>>>> without having to
>>>>> do TfLs job for it by telling them the route they took.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that should be OK, but what happens if a GWR passenger from, say,
>>>> Oxford changes to the EL at Reading and leaves at Tottenham Court Road?
>>>> There's no gateline to pass through at Reading, and it's easy to miss the
>>>> pink validators.
>>>
>>> Not living in London I’m not overly familiar with the pink validators. Is
>>> there any downside to tapping my credit card on one whenever I see one,
>>> assuming that I am making an intentional journey on the system?
>>
>> As far as I'm aware the Pink validators are to leave an audit trail of
>> having travelled across London *not* through the central zone(s) and
>> thus potentially get a cheaper PAYG fare.
>
> Yes, that's the idea, but I can think of at least one case where using a validator would increase the fare you pay.

Is using the validator mandatory in such cases, or just a stupidity tax?

On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer
>>>>>> to RER.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
>>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>>
>>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
>>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
>>> was run by East Berlin,
>>
>> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>>
>> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>>
>> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
>> respective sides.
>>
>
> I don’t think the U-Bahn in the east was operated by the western
> authorities. I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket machine was
> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When I did
> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off one and
> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners. On the
> subsequent trip the train ran through the tunnel with one of the doors wide
> open. So I think it highly unlikely that a western operator would allow
> this to happen.
>
> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west local
> population largely boycotted the system.
>

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:15:03 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 15:32:30 -0000 (UTC)
>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:36:26 +0000
>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>> On 27/01/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse
>>>>>> kissing
>>>>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>>>>> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>>>>
>>>> Yes.
>>>>
>>>> The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
>>>> isn't. This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
>>>> proportion of users.
>>>
>>> The other problem is that the central service which will be the most used
>>> is going to be buggered up by problems on network rail either side just as
>>> happens on the east london line which should never have been extended beyond
>>its
>>> previous southern termini IMO given how good interchange already was.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>With approximately half the service turning back at Paddington, there's
>>scope for keeping a decent service through the core even if no trains are
>>managing to run through to/from the GWML.
>
>Problem is when the entire service has to turn back plus a load of trains
>on the e/b waiting to enter the tunnel. I suspect things will quickly go to
>pot especially if the eastern section plays up at the same time. We all know
>how well reversing works on tube lines when they have issues on the periphery.

It may be scenarios like those that will be among those rehearsed in the coming weeks, along with tunnel and station
evacuations involving volunteers.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 13:24:07 +0000, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:

>On 29/01/2022 12:52, Recliner wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 11:52:25 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <st36ib$kkq$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:15 on Sat, 29 Jan
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:12:16 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Not sure why that matters. If I get off a Thameslink train at
>>>>>>>> Farringdon, I probably haven't been trough any before, either.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Presumably we expect a TfL gateline at Paddington unless there's an
>>>>>>>> "airside" walking route from every platform, which seems unlikely.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The EL will have its own gateline at Paddington, plus there's a new
>>>>>>> underground passageway to the Bakerloo line (presumably with pink
>>>>>>> validators).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What could possibly go wrong. No doubt many PAYG users will forget to tap
>>>>>> and get ripped off by TfL for the max fare. One can only hope there's some
>>>>>> joined up thinking and if someone taps in at Reading then they can hop onto
>>>>>> a tube in central london and exit at a tube station elsewhere
>>>>>> without having to
>>>>>> do TfLs job for it by telling them the route they took.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, that should be OK, but what happens if a GWR passenger from, say,
>>>>> Oxford changes to the EL at Reading and leaves at Tottenham Court Road?
>>>>> There's no gateline to pass through at Reading, and it's easy to miss the
>>>>> pink validators.
>>>>
>>>> Not living in London I’m not overly familiar with the pink validators. Is
>>>> there any downside to tapping my credit card on one whenever I see one,
>>>> assuming that I am making an intentional journey on the system?
>>>
>>> As far as I'm aware the Pink validators are to leave an audit trail of
>>> having travelled across London *not* through the central zone(s) and
>>> thus potentially get a cheaper PAYG fare.
>>
>> Yes, that's the idea, but I can think of at least one case where using a validator would increase the fare you pay.
>
>Is using the validator mandatory in such cases, or just a stupidity tax?

I thought it was always voluntary.

The particular case I'm think of is a specific journey from Z1 to Z4. TfL assumes you took the direct route and charges
accordingly, but it's actually quicker to take a different route that involves a change in Zone 5. If you don't touch
the validators there, you still get charged a Z1-4 fare, but if you do, you presumably get charged a Z1-5 fare (not that
I ever did).

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 13:24:10 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>>>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>>>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>>>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>>>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>>>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer
>>>>>>> to RER.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
>>>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>>>
>>>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>>>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
>>>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
>>>> was run by East Berlin,
>>>
>>> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>>>
>>> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>>>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>>>
>>> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
>>> respective sides.
>>>
>>
>> I don’t think the U-Bahn in the east was operated by the western
>> authorities. I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket machine was
>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When I did
>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off one and
>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners. On the
>> subsequent trip the train ran through the tunnel with one of the doors wide
>> open. So I think it highly unlikely that a western operator would allow
>> this to happen.
>>
>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west local
>> population largely boycotted the system.
>>
>
>According to Brian Hardy's book on the Berlin U-Bahn the east and west
>sections of the system were administered separately. The U-Bahn is also
>two different systems, one with a larger permitted profile than the
>other. The larger was almost completely confined to West Berlin.

On 29/01/2022 13:33, Recliner wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 13:24:10 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>>>>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>>>>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>>>>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>>>>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>>>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>>>>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>>>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>>>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>>>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer
>>>>>>>> to RER.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
>>>>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>>>>
>>>>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>>>>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
>>>>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
>>>>> was run by East Berlin,
>>>>
>>>> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>>>>
>>>> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>>>>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>>>>
>>>> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
>>>> respective sides.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don’t think the U-Bahn in the east was operated by the western
>>> authorities. I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket machine was
>>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When I did
>>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off one and
>>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners. On the
>>> subsequent trip the train ran through the tunnel with one of the doors wide
>>> open. So I think it highly unlikely that a western operator would allow
>>> this to happen.
>>>
>>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west local
>>> population largely boycotted the system.
>>>
>>
>> According to Brian Hardy's book on the Berlin U-Bahn the east and west
>> sections of the system were administered separately. The U-Bahn is also
>> two different systems, one with a larger permitted profile than the
>> other. The larger was almost completely confined to West Berlin.
>
> There was at least one section of a west U-Bahn line that passed through the east, non-stop. The Russians made sure
> no-one used the closed stations in that section, but I'm not sure who maintained the track and tunnels.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:52:42 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:12:16 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Not sure why that matters. If I get off a Thameslink train at
>>>> Farringdon, I probably haven't been trough any before, either.
>>>>
>>>> Presumably we expect a TfL gateline at Paddington unless there's an
>>>> "airside" walking route from every platform, which seems unlikely.
>>>
>>> The EL will have its own gateline at Paddington, plus there's a new
>>> underground passageway to the Bakerloo line (presumably with pink
>>> validators).
>>
>> What could possibly go wrong. No doubt many PAYG users will forget to tap
>> and get ripped off by TfL for the max fare. One can only hope there's some
>> joined up thinking and if someone taps in at Reading then they can hop onto
>> a tube in central london and exit at a tube station elsewhere without having
>to
>> do TfLs job for it by telling them the route they took.
>>
>>
>
>Yes, that should be OK, but what happens if a GWR passenger from, say,
>Oxford changes to the EL at Reading and leaves at Tottenham Court Road?
>There's no gateline to pass through at Reading, and it's easy to miss the
>pink validators.

Thats a different scenario from moving from one TfL system to another. While
you're on TfL trains you shouldn't have to concern yourself with middle of the
journey validating.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 11:52:25 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <st36ib$kkq$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:15 on Sat, 29 Jan
>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:12:16 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Not sure why that matters. If I get off a Thameslink train at
>>>>>> Farringdon, I probably haven't been trough any before, either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Presumably we expect a TfL gateline at Paddington unless there's an
>>>>>> "airside" walking route from every platform, which seems unlikely.
>>>>>
>>>>> The EL will have its own gateline at Paddington, plus there's a new
>>>>> underground passageway to the Bakerloo line (presumably with pink
>>>>> validators).
>>>>
>>>> What could possibly go wrong. No doubt many PAYG users will forget to tap
>>>> and get ripped off by TfL for the max fare. One can only hope there's some
>>>> joined up thinking and if someone taps in at Reading then they can hop onto
>
>>>> a tube in central london and exit at a tube station elsewhere
>>>>without having to
>>>> do TfLs job for it by telling them the route they took.
>>>
>>> Yes, that should be OK, but what happens if a GWR passenger from, say,
>>> Oxford changes to the EL at Reading and leaves at Tottenham Court Road?
>>> There's no gateline to pass through at Reading, and it's easy to miss the
>>> pink validators.
>>
>>Not living in London I’m not overly familiar with the pink validators. Is
>>there any downside to tapping my credit card on one whenever I see one,
>>assuming that I am making an intentional journey on the system?
>
>As far as I'm aware the Pink validators are to leave an audit trail of
>having travelled across London *not* through the central zone(s) and
>thus potentially get a cheaper PAYG fare.

In a sane world you'd always get the cheapest fare possible since it makes
no difference to TfL how you get from A -> B in terms of cost. But we don't
live in such a world. Also you have deliberate cynical anomolies such as the
ELL being in zone 2 or above apart from shorditch high street in zone 1 in
order to be able to charge max fare for anyone using it to bypass central
london when going north to south.