In message <83gavglb5spuji73h2hrcdq1glng55qnee@4ax.com>, at 13:26:44 on
Sat, 29 Jan 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:15:03 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 15:32:30 -0000 (UTC)
>>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:36:26 +0000
>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>> On 27/01/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse
>>>>>>> kissing
>>>>>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>>>>>> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
>>>>> isn't. This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
>>>>> proportion of users.
>>>>
>>>> The other problem is that the central service which will be the most used
>>>> is going to be buggered up by problems on network rail either side just as
>>>> happens on the east london line which should never have been
>>>>extended beyond
>>>its
>>>> previous southern termini IMO given how good interchange already was.
>>>
>>>With approximately half the service turning back at Paddington, there's
>>>scope for keeping a decent service through the core even if no trains are
>>>managing to run through to/from the GWML.
>>
>>Problem is when the entire service has to turn back plus a load of trains
>>on the e/b waiting to enter the tunnel. I suspect things will quickly go to
>>pot especially if the eastern section plays up at the same time. We all know
>>how well reversing works on tube lines when they have issues on the periphery.
>
>It may be scenarios like those that will be among those rehearsed in
>the coming weeks,

What have they been doing the last three years, if not stuff like that?

>along with tunnel and station evacuations involving volunteers.

Those would require the intermediate stations to be completely fitted
out, but what is about them which isn't fitted out and thus causing the
delay?
--
Roland Perry

In message <st3ksu$70f$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:01:50 on Sat, 29 Jan
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 11:52:25 +0000
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <st36ib$kkq$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:15 on Sat, 29 Jan
>>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:12:16 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> Not sure why that matters. If I get off a Thameslink train at
>>>>>>> Farringdon, I probably haven't been trough any before, either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Presumably we expect a TfL gateline at Paddington unless there's an
>>>>>>> "airside" walking route from every platform, which seems unlikely.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The EL will have its own gateline at Paddington, plus there's a new
>>>>>> underground passageway to the Bakerloo line (presumably with pink
>>>>>> validators).
>>>>>
>>>>> What could possibly go wrong. No doubt many PAYG users will forget to tap
>>>>> and get ripped off by TfL for the max fare. One can only hope there's some
>>>>> joined up thinking and if someone taps in at Reading then they can
>>>>>hop onto
>>
>>>>> a tube in central london and exit at a tube station elsewhere
>>>>>without having to
>>>>> do TfLs job for it by telling them the route they took.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that should be OK, but what happens if a GWR passenger from, say,
>>>> Oxford changes to the EL at Reading and leaves at Tottenham Court Road?
>>>> There's no gateline to pass through at Reading, and it's easy to miss the
>>>> pink validators.
>>>
>>>Not living in London I’m not overly familiar with the pink validators. Is
>>>there any downside to tapping my credit card on one whenever I see one,
>>>assuming that I am making an intentional journey on the system?
>>
>>As far as I'm aware the Pink validators are to leave an audit trail of
>>having travelled across London *not* through the central zone(s) and
>>thus potentially get a cheaper PAYG fare.
>
>In a sane world you'd always get the cheapest fare possible since it makes
>no difference to TfL how you get from A -> B in terms of cost.

It does, because if everyone travels through Zone 1, and clogs up the
Central Lines as a result, eventually they have to upgrade it (or build
a relief line like Crossrail).

Ditto on National Rail where "Not London fares" relieve pressure on
service via London Termini.
--
Roland Perry

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 15:32:30 -0000 (UTC)
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The other problem is that the central service which will be the most used
>>> is going to be buggered up by problems on network rail either side just as
>>> happens on the east london line which should never have been extended beyond
>> its
>>> previous southern termini IMO given how good interchange already was.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> With approximately half the service turning back at Paddington, there's
>> scope for keeping a decent service through the core even if no trains are
>> managing to run through to/from the GWML.
>
> Problem is when the entire service has to turn back plus a load of trains
> on the e/b waiting to enter the tunnel. I suspect things will quickly go to
> pot especially if the eastern section plays up at the same time. We all know
> how well reversing works on tube lines when they have issues on the periphery.
>
>

If there's nowhere for westbound trains to go because of problems on the
GWML then it's pretty likely that there won't be any eastbound arrivals for
the tunnel either. I'm pretty sure that EL drivers will continue to sign
into Paddington mainline terminus which will give another solution in event
of problems. Between EL Paddington tunnel mouth and where the lines join
Network Rail, there are three turnback sidings and the two running lines
can be used for reversing too. Plus the trains can drive themselves from
the EL platform into the reversing sidings while the driver changes ends.
Finally you've also got Old Oak Common EL depot nearby which will be able
to absorb excess units if necessary, depending exactly where the problem
is.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:12:16 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Not sure why that matters. If I get off a Thameslink train at
>>> Farringdon, I probably haven't been trough any before, either.
>>>
>>> Presumably we expect a TfL gateline at Paddington unless there's an
>>> "airside" walking route from every platform, which seems unlikely.
>>
>> The EL will have its own gateline at Paddington, plus there's a new
>> underground passageway to the Bakerloo line (presumably with pink
>> validators).
>
> What could possibly go wrong. No doubt many PAYG users will forget to tap
> and get ripped off by TfL for the max fare. One can only hope there's some
> joined up thinking and if someone taps in at Reading then they can hop onto
> a tube in central london and exit at a tube station elsewhere without having to
> do TfLs job for it by telling them the route they took.
>
>

That possibility already exists via Ealing Broadway, so presumably there's
experience either way documented online somewhere.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 29/01/2022 13:33, Recliner wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 13:24:10 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>>>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>>>>>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>>>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>>>>>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>>>>>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>>>>>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>>>>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>>>>>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>>>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>>>>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>>>>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>>>>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>>>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer
>>>>>>>>> to RER.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
>>>>>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>>>>>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
>>>>>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
>>>>>> was run by East Berlin,
>>>>>
>>>>> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>>>>>
>>>>> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>>>>>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
>>>>> respective sides.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don’t think the U-Bahn in the east was operated by the western
>>>> authorities. I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket machine was
>>>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When I did
>>>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off one and
>>>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners. On the
>>>> subsequent trip the train ran through the tunnel with one of the doors wide
>>>> open. So I think it highly unlikely that a western operator would allow
>>>> this to happen.
>>>>
>>>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west local
>>>> population largely boycotted the system.
>>>>
>>>
>>> According to Brian Hardy's book on the Berlin U-Bahn the east and west
>>> sections of the system were administered separately. The U-Bahn is also
>>> two different systems, one with a larger permitted profile than the
>>> other. The larger was almost completely confined to West Berlin.
>>
>> There was at least one section of a west U-Bahn line that passed through
>> the east, non-stop. The Russians made sure
>> no-one used the closed stations in that section, but I'm not sure who
>> maintained the track and tunnels.
>
> Both Lines U6 and U8 had sections in East Berlin with closed stations.
> Maintenance appears to have been the responsibility of the West
> administration, the lines being effectively sealed off from any access
> from th East.
>

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <83gavglb5spuji73h2hrcdq1glng55qnee@4ax.com>, at 13:26:44 on
> Sat, 29 Jan 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:15:03 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 15:32:30 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:36:26 +0000
>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse
>>>>>>>> kissing
>>>>>>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>>>>>>> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
>>>>>> isn't. This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
>>>>>> proportion of users.
>>>>>
>>>>> The other problem is that the central service which will be the most used
>>>>> is going to be buggered up by problems on network rail either side just as
>>>>> happens on the east london line which should never have been
>>>>> extended beyond
>>>> its
>>>>> previous southern termini IMO given how good interchange already was.
>>>>
>>>> With approximately half the service turning back at Paddington, there's
>>>> scope for keeping a decent service through the core even if no trains are
>>>> managing to run through to/from the GWML.
>>>
>>> Problem is when the entire service has to turn back plus a load of trains
>>> on the e/b waiting to enter the tunnel. I suspect things will quickly go to
>>> pot especially if the eastern section plays up at the same time. We all know
>>> how well reversing works on tube lines when they have issues on the periphery.
>>
>> It may be scenarios like those that will be among those rehearsed in
>> the coming weeks,
>
> What have they been doing the last three years, if not stuff like that?
>

Trial running only started last May, not three years ago.

>> along with tunnel and station evacuations involving volunteers.
>
> Those would require the intermediate stations to be completely fitted
> out, but what is about them which isn't fitted out and thus causing the
> delay?

That's only one station now. The rest have been handed over.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 15:31:08 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <st3ksu$70f$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:01:50 on Sat, 29 Jan
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>As far as I'm aware the Pink validators are to leave an audit trail of
>>>having travelled across London *not* through the central zone(s) and
>>>thus potentially get a cheaper PAYG fare.
>>
>>In a sane world you'd always get the cheapest fare possible since it makes
>>no difference to TfL how you get from A -> B in terms of cost.
>
>It does, because if everyone travels through Zone 1, and clogs up the
>Central Lines as a result, eventually they have to upgrade it (or build
>a relief line like Crossrail).

I doubt thats the primary reason, more of a case of get as much money as they
can which is why the whole zone system is skewed anyway. If it was based purely
on distance then cockfosters and high barnet wouldn't be in zone 5 while
somewhat further out - measured from centre point - chigwell is in zone 4.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 11:52:25 +0000
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <st36ib$kkq$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:15 on Sat, 29 Jan
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:12:16 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> Not sure why that matters. If I get off a Thameslink train at
>>>>>>> Farringdon, I probably haven't been trough any before, either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Presumably we expect a TfL gateline at Paddington unless there's an
>>>>>>> "airside" walking route from every platform, which seems unlikely.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The EL will have its own gateline at Paddington, plus there's a new
>>>>>> underground passageway to the Bakerloo line (presumably with pink
>>>>>> validators).
>>>>>
>>>>> What could possibly go wrong. No doubt many PAYG users will forget to tap
>>>>> and get ripped off by TfL for the max fare. One can only hope there's some
>>>>> joined up thinking and if someone taps in at Reading then they can hop onto
>>
>>>>> a tube in central london and exit at a tube station elsewhere
>>>>> without having to
>>>>> do TfLs job for it by telling them the route they took.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that should be OK, but what happens if a GWR passenger from, say,
>>>> Oxford changes to the EL at Reading and leaves at Tottenham Court Road?
>>>> There's no gateline to pass through at Reading, and it's easy to miss the
>>>> pink validators.
>>>
>>> Not living in London I’m not overly familiar with the pink validators. Is
>>> there any downside to tapping my credit card on one whenever I see one,
>>> assuming that I am making an intentional journey on the system?
>>
>> As far as I'm aware the Pink validators are to leave an audit trail of
>> having travelled across London *not* through the central zone(s) and
>> thus potentially get a cheaper PAYG fare.
>
> In a sane world you'd always get the cheapest fare possible since it makes
> no difference to TfL how you get from A -> B in terms of cost. But we don't
> live in such a world. Also you have deliberate cynical anomolies such as the
> ELL being in zone 2 or above apart from shorditch high street in zone 1 in
> order to be able to charge max fare for anyone using it to bypass central
> london when going north to south.
>

Yes, I believe that was deliberate policy.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <83gavglb5spuji73h2hrcdq1glng55qnee@4ax.com>, at 13:26:44 on
> Sat, 29 Jan 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:15:03 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 15:32:30 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:36:26 +0000
>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse
>>>>>>>> kissing
>>>>>>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>>>>>>> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
>>>>>> isn't. This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
>>>>>> proportion of users.
>>>>>
>>>>> The other problem is that the central service which will be the most used
>>>>> is going to be buggered up by problems on network rail either side just as
>>>>> happens on the east london line which should never have been
>>>>> extended beyond
>>>> its
>>>>> previous southern termini IMO given how good interchange already was.
>>>>
>>>> With approximately half the service turning back at Paddington, there's
>>>> scope for keeping a decent service through the core even if no trains are
>>>> managing to run through to/from the GWML.
>>>
>>> Problem is when the entire service has to turn back plus a load of trains
>>> on the e/b waiting to enter the tunnel. I suspect things will quickly go to
>>> pot especially if the eastern section plays up at the same time. We all know
>>> how well reversing works on tube lines when they have issues on the periphery.
>>
>> It may be scenarios like those that will be among those rehearsed in
>> the coming weeks,
>
> What have they been doing the last three years, if not stuff like that?
>
>> along with tunnel and station evacuations involving volunteers.
>
> Those would require the intermediate stations to be completely fitted
> out, but what is about them which isn't fitted out and thus causing the
> delay?

Most are complete, apart from Bond Street, whose completion has been
'decoupled' from the line's opening. They're now in the process of
rehearsing and testing it as an operational railway, including testing
emergencies with volunteers and the emergency services.

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 12:48:14 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

>I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it as
>Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's like the
>Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be officially
>called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben (yes, I know that's
>the name of the hour bell).

In a similar way there's a road in Telford (part of the A442)
officially called The Queensway but nearly 40 years after it was built
it's still referred to by most folk as The Eastern Primary or just the
EP!

On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer
>>>>>> to RER.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
>>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>>
>>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
>>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
>>> was run by East Berlin,
>>
>> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>>
>> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>>
>> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
>> respective sides.
>>
>
> I don’t think the U-Bahn in the east was operated by the western
> authorities.

On 29/01/2022 13:24, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that
>>>>>>>>>> are, in
>>>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains,
>>>>>>>>>> operating on
>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively
>>>>>>>>> close to
>>>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as
>>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more
>>>>>>>> akin to
>>>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the
>>>>>>> Norristown
>>>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North
>>>>>>>> American
>>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours
>>>>>>>> one way
>>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line
>>>>>>> East run
>>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of
>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak,
>>>>>>> such as
>>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley
>>>>>>> Line, but
>>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear
>>>>>>>> definition
>>>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where
>>>>>>>> it is
>>>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban
>>>>>>>> services.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical
>>>>>>>>>> standards
>>>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a
>>>>>>>>> cross
>>>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking
>>>>>>>> countries,
>>>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as
>>>>>>>>> the new
>>>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer
>>>>>>> to RER.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>>>
>>>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>>>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
>>>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
>>>> was run by East Berlin,
>>>
>>> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>>>
>>> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>>>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>>>
>>> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
>>> respective sides.
>>>
>>
>> I don’t think the U-Bahn in the east was operated by the western
>> authorities. I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket machine was
>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When I did
>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off one and
>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners. On
>> the
>> subsequent trip the train ran through the tunnel with one of the doors
>> wide
>> open. So I think it highly unlikely that a western operator would allow
>> this to happen.
>>
>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west local
>> population largely boycotted the system.
>>
>
> According to Brian Hardy's book on the Berlin U-Bahn the east and west
> sections of the system were administered separately. The U-Bahn is also
> two different systems, one with a larger permitted profile than the
> other. The larger was almost completely confined to West Berlin.
>
I believe that there were but two lines in East Berlin.

On 29/01/2022 20:45, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 29/01/2022 13:24, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful
>>>>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to
>>>>>>>>>>> urban
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that
>>>>>>>>>>> are, in
>>>>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains,
>>>>>>>>>>> operating on
>>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia,
>>>>>>>>>> which are
>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively
>>>>>>>>>> close to
>>>>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as
>>>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more
>>>>>>>>> akin to
>>>>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the
>>>>>>>> Norristown
>>>>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line
>>>>>>>> and the
>>>>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North
>>>>>>>>> American
>>>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours
>>>>>>>>> one way
>>>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other
>>>>>>>>> service).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line
>>>>>>>> East run
>>>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of
>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak,
>>>>>>>> such as
>>>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley
>>>>>>>> Line, but
>>>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear
>>>>>>>>> definition
>>>>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>>>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden
>>>>>>>>> where it is
>>>>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban
>>>>>>>>> services.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>> non-standard,
>>>>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical
>>>>>>>>>>> standards
>>>>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be
>>>>>>>>>> a cross
>>>>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?
>>>>>>>>> Asside from
>>>>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking
>>>>>>>>> countries,
>>>>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as
>>>>>>>>>> the new
>>>>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer
>>>>>>>> to RER.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>>>>
>>>>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>>>>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
>>>>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
>>>>> was run by East Berlin,
>>>>
>>>> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>>>>
>>>> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>>>>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>>>>
>>>> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
>>>> respective sides.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don’t think the U-Bahn in the east was operated by the western
>>> authorities. I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket machine was
>>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When I did
>>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off one
>>> and
>>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners.
>>> On the
>>> subsequent trip the train ran through the tunnel with one of the
>>> doors wide
>>> open. So I think it highly unlikely that a western operator would allow
>>> this to happen.
>>>
>>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west local
>>> population largely boycotted the system.
>>>
>>
>> According to Brian Hardy's book on the Berlin U-Bahn the east and west
>> sections of the system were administered separately. The U-Bahn is
>> also two different systems, one with a larger permitted profile than
>> the other. The larger was almost completely confined to West Berlin.
>>
> I believe that there were but two lines in East Berlin.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>>>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>>>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>>>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>>>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>>>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer
>>>>>>> to RER.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
>>>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>>>
>>>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>>>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
>>>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
>>>> was run by East Berlin,
>>>
>>> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>>>
>>> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>>>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>>>
>>> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
>>> respective sides.
>>>
>>
>> I don’t think the U-Bahn in the east was operated by the western
>> authorities.
>
> That's what I said.
>
> I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket machine was
>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When I did
>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off one and
>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners.
>
> Why would they try to "entrap westerners," using that method?
>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west local
>> population largely boycotted the system.
>
> I know.
>
> The fare was 30 pfennig in West Berlin and 30 ostpfennig in East Berlin.
>
>

On 29/01/2022 18:13, Nigel Emery wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 12:48:14 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it as
>> Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's like the
>> Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be officially
>> called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben (yes, I know that's
>> the name of the hour bell).
>
> In a similar way there's a road in Telford (part of the A442)
> officially called The Queensway but nearly 40 years after it was built
> it's still referred to by most folk as The Eastern Primary or just the
> EP!
>
It's like that around here. They're still the "New Seven Bridge" and
the "Old Seven Bridge" in spite of the name of one of them being changed.

On 29/01/2022 21:08, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 29/01/2022 20:45, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 29/01/2022 13:24, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful
>>>>>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to
>>>>>>>>>>>> urban
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that
>>>>>>>>>>>> are, in
>>>>>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains,
>>>>>>>>>>>> operating on
>>>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia,
>>>>>>>>>>> which are
>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively
>>>>>>>>>>> close to
>>>>>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well
>>>>>>>>>>> as here.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more
>>>>>>>>>> akin to
>>>>>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>>>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the
>>>>>>>>> Norristown
>>>>>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line
>>>>>>>>> and the
>>>>>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North
>>>>>>>>>> American
>>>>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours
>>>>>>>>>> one way
>>>>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the
>>>>>>>>>> morning and
>>>>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other
>>>>>>>>>> service).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA
>>>>>>>>> Commuter
>>>>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line
>>>>>>>>> East run
>>>>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some
>>>>>>>>> of these
>>>>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak,
>>>>>>>>> such as
>>>>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley
>>>>>>>>> Line, but
>>>>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear
>>>>>>>>>> definition
>>>>>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from
>>>>>>>>>> Berlin
>>>>>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden
>>>>>>>>>> where it is
>>>>>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban
>>>>>>>>>> services.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>>> non-standard,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical
>>>>>>>>>>>> standards
>>>>>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be
>>>>>>>>>>> a cross
>>>>>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?
>>>>>>>>>> Asside from
>>>>>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking
>>>>>>>>>> countries,
>>>>>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the
>>>>>>>>>> Munich
>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as
>>>>>>>>>>> the new
>>>>>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing
>>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely
>>>>>>>>> closer
>>>>>>>>> to RER.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn,
>>>>>>>> compared with
>>>>>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>>>>>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
>>>>>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose:
>>>>>> S-Bahn
>>>>>> was run by East Berlin,
>>>>>
>>>>> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>>>>>
>>>>> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>>>>>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
>>>>> respective sides.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don’t think the U-Bahn in the east was operated by the western
>>>> authorities. I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket machine
>>>> was
>>>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When I
>>>> did
>>>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off
>>>> one and
>>>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners.
>>>> On the
>>>> subsequent trip the train ran through the tunnel with one of the
>>>> doors wide
>>>> open. So I think it highly unlikely that a western operator would allow
>>>> this to happen.
>>>>
>>>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west
>>>> local
>>>> population largely boycotted the system.
>>>>
>>>
>>> According to Brian Hardy's book on the Berlin U-Bahn the east and
>>> west sections of the system were administered separately. The U-Bahn
>>> is also two different systems, one with a larger permitted profile
>>> than the other. The larger was almost completely confined to West
>>> Berlin.
>>>
>> I believe that there were but two lines in East Berlin.
>
> Two that passed through part of East Berlin then back into the west,
> these were the ones that had the sealed stations in the east. Two other
> lines terminated in the east and those ends were abandoned when the
> border was closed.
>

On 29/01/2022 21:13, Tweed wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>>>>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>>>>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>>>>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>>>>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>>>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>>>>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>>>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>>>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>>>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer
>>>>>>>> to RER.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
>>>>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>>>>
>>>>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>>>>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
>>>>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
>>>>> was run by East Berlin,
>>>>
>>>> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>>>>
>>>> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>>>>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>>>>
>>>> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
>>>> respective sides.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don’t think the U-Bahn in the east was operated by the western
>>> authorities.
>>
>> That's what I said.
>>
>> I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket machine was
>>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When I did
>>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off one and
>>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners.
>>
>> Why would they try to "entrap westerners," using that method?
>>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west local
>>> population largely boycotted the system.
>>
>> I know.
>>
>> The fare was 30 pfennig in West Berlin and 30 ostpfennig in East Berlin.
>>
>>
>
> Sorry I misunderstood your original point about ownership.
>
> Entrapment was a fear. On the transit motorways they invented many methods
> of extracting fines. Sudden reductions in speed limits for spurious
> roadworks with a police car on attendance. Making it illegal to move into
> the faster lane to allow space for a car joining the motorway from a slip
> road.

On 29/01/2022 13:26, Recliner wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:15:03 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 15:32:30 -0000 (UTC)
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:36:26 +0000
>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>> On 27/01/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse
>>>>>>> kissing
>>>>>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>>>>>> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
>>>>> isn't. This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
>>>>> proportion of users.
>>>>
>>>> The other problem is that the central service which will be the most used
>>>> is going to be buggered up by problems on network rail either side just as
>>>> happens on the east london line which should never have been extended beyond
>>> its
>>>> previous southern termini IMO given how good interchange already was.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> With approximately half the service turning back at Paddington, there's
>>> scope for keeping a decent service through the core even if no trains are
>>> managing to run through to/from the GWML.
>>
>> Problem is when the entire service has to turn back plus a load of trains
>> on the e/b waiting to enter the tunnel. I suspect things will quickly go to
>> pot especially if the eastern section plays up at the same time. We all know
>> how well reversing works on tube lines when they have issues on the periphery.
>
> It may be scenarios like those that will be among those rehearsed in the coming weeks, along with tunnel and station
> evacuations involving volunteers.

Who are the volunteers, TfL employees?

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 29/01/2022 13:26, Recliner wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:15:03 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 15:32:30 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:36:26 +0000
>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse
>>>>>>>> kissing
>>>>>>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>>>>>>> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
>>>>>> isn't. This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
>>>>>> proportion of users.
>>>>>
>>>>> The other problem is that the central service which will be the most used
>>>>> is going to be buggered up by problems on network rail either side just as
>>>>> happens on the east london line which should never have been extended beyond
>>>> its
>>>>> previous southern termini IMO given how good interchange already was.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> With approximately half the service turning back at Paddington, there's
>>>> scope for keeping a decent service through the core even if no trains are
>>>> managing to run through to/from the GWML.
>>>
>>> Problem is when the entire service has to turn back plus a load of trains
>>> on the e/b waiting to enter the tunnel. I suspect things will quickly go to
>>> pot especially if the eastern section plays up at the same time. We all know
>>> how well reversing works on tube lines when they have issues on the periphery.
>>
>> It may be scenarios like those that will be among those rehearsed in the
>> coming weeks, along with tunnel and station
>> evacuations involving volunteers.
>
> Who are the volunteers, TfL employees?
>

Crossrail said the mass tests would use volunteers from TfL, Crossrail,
contractors and partner organisations.

A TfL spokesperson said: “We remain vigilant to any Covid-19 developments
and are very mindful of protecting our staff and volunteers. Every attendee
will be required to take a lateral flow test and face coverings will be
required throughout exercises. Participants will not attend exercises if
they feel unwell or have been instructed to isolate.

“The Elizabeth line is extremely complex, and the trial operations phase
will continue until it is clear that the highest levels of safety and
reliability are in place before the railway can open to customers.”

<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/crossrail-opening-delayed-covid-omicron-london-assembly-b977530.html>

Besides Crossrail coming on stream soon, another project that is decades
behind schedule and well, well over budget is New York's East Side Access.

This project gives the Long Island Rail Road direct access to Grand
Central Terminal, via Sunnyside and the 63rd Street Tunnel's lower level.

Testing has already begun and it is tentatively due to open later this year.

Penn Station is on the west side of Manhattan, and so those commuters
from Long Island who work closer to the east side have to get on the New
York City Subway or walk a longer distance.

It is possible for those working on the east to get an LIRR train to
Atlantic Terminal, but that is in Brooklyn and requires an even longer
subway trip. (It is useful, however, for those working in Lower Manhattan.)

Some LIRR trains run into Long Island City, on the Lower Montauk Branch,
where you have to transfer to the Hunters Point Avenue station, but
service at the LIRR station is rather limited.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>>
>>> I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket machine was
>>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When I did
>>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off one and
>>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners.
>>
>> Why would they try to "entrap westerners," using that method?
>>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west local
>>> population largely boycotted the system.
>>
>> I know.
>>
>> The fare was 30 pfennig in West Berlin and 30 ostpfennig in East Berlin.
>>
>>
>
> Sorry I misunderstood your original point about ownership.
>
> Entrapment was a fear. On the transit motorways they invented many methods
> of extracting fines. Sudden reductions in speed limits for spurious
> roadworks with a police car on attendance. Making it illegal to move into
> the faster lane to allow space for a car joining the motorway from a slip
> road.
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/trains/comments/7t04p3/an_east_berlin_ticket_machine_at_the_ddr_museum/
>
> This might have been the ticket machine. I have a distinct memory of a
> length of tickets coming out.
>
>

That kind of ticket machine is interesting, and knowing how it works I'm
not sure it could accidentally issue more than one ticket (maybe there were
already some hanging out before you pulled the lever?) - the lever which
you pull one ticket-length advances the ticket roll by one ticket-length.

The comment on that Reddit page about it still issues a ticket even if you
don't insert a coin is interesting too - behind the glass panel on the left
is a six-bladed 'waterwheel' type device which displays the coin inserted
by each of the last few users. The way it's explained by crews at Crich
(one of these machines is fitted to their wheelchair-accessible Berlin
tram) is that nobody knew who was secret police etc so nobody dared to not
put in a coin, even though you could get away without paying if you did…

Anna Noyd-Dryver

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 29/01/2022 21:13, Tweed wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>>>> I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket machine was
>>>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When I did
>>>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off one and
>>>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners.
>>>
>>> Why would they try to "entrap westerners," using that method?
>>>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west local
>>>> population largely boycotted the system.
>>>
>>> I know.
>>>
>>> The fare was 30 pfennig in West Berlin and 30 ostpfennig in East Berlin.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Sorry I misunderstood your original point about ownership.
>>
>> Entrapment was a fear. On the transit motorways they invented many methods
>> of extracting fines. Sudden reductions in speed limits for spurious
>> roadworks with a police car on attendance. Making it illegal to move into
>> the faster lane to allow space for a car joining the motorway from a slip
>> road.
>
> I heard about entrapment by the VoPo on the border and on the autobahn
> corridor between Inner German border and West Berlin.
>
> I also know that it would cost DM5 to cross from West Berlin to East Berlin.
>
> But entrapment on the U-Bahn over a 20 ostpfennig ticket? I think that's
> reaching.
>

But if as a visitor, you've heard tales of entrapment, or experienced it in
other ways, and then this happens, it's an entirely understandable
conclusion to reach in the heat of the moment, surely?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 29/01/2022 21:13, Tweed wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>>>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>>>>>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>>>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>>>>>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>>>>>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>>>>>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>>>>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>>>>>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>>>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>>>>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>>>>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>>>>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>>>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer
>>>>>>>>> to RER.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
>>>>>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>>>>>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
>>>>>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
>>>>>> was run by East Berlin,
>>>>>
>>>>> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>>>>>
>>>>> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>>>>>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
>>>>> respective sides.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don’t think the U-Bahn in the east was operated by the western
>>>> authorities.
>>>
>>> That's what I said.
>>>
>>> I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket machine was
>>>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When I did
>>>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off one and
>>>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners.
>>>
>>> Why would they try to "entrap westerners," using that method?
>>>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west local
>>>> population largely boycotted the system.
>>>
>>> I know.
>>>
>>> The fare was 30 pfennig in West Berlin and 30 ostpfennig in East Berlin.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Sorry I misunderstood your original point about ownership.
>>
>> Entrapment was a fear. On the transit motorways they invented many methods
>> of extracting fines. Sudden reductions in speed limits for spurious
>> roadworks with a police car on attendance. Making it illegal to move into
>> the faster lane to allow space for a car joining the motorway from a slip
>> road.
>
> I heard about entrapment by the VoPo on the border and on the autobahn
> corridor between Inner German border and West Berlin.
>
> I also know that it would cost DM5 to cross from West Berlin to East Berlin.
>
> But entrapment on the U-Bahn over a 20 ostpfennig ticket? I think that's
> reaching.
>

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>>>
>>>> I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket machine was
>>>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When I did
>>>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off one and
>>>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners.
>>>
>>> Why would they try to "entrap westerners," using that method?
>>>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west local
>>>> population largely boycotted the system.
>>>
>>> I know.
>>>
>>> The fare was 30 pfennig in West Berlin and 30 ostpfennig in East Berlin.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Sorry I misunderstood your original point about ownership.
>>
>> Entrapment was a fear. On the transit motorways they invented many methods
>> of extracting fines. Sudden reductions in speed limits for spurious
>> roadworks with a police car on attendance. Making it illegal to move into
>> the faster lane to allow space for a car joining the motorway from a slip
>> road.
>>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/trains/comments/7t04p3/an_east_berlin_ticket_machine_at_the_ddr_museum/
>>
>> This might have been the ticket machine. I have a distinct memory of a
>> length of tickets coming out.
>>
>>
>
> That kind of ticket machine is interesting, and knowing how it works I'm
> not sure it could accidentally issue more than one ticket (maybe there were
> already some hanging out before you pulled the lever?) - the lever which
> you pull one ticket-length advances the ticket roll by one ticket-length.
>
> The comment on that Reddit page about it still issues a ticket even if you
> don't insert a coin is interesting too - behind the glass panel on the left
> is a six-bladed 'waterwheel' type device which displays the coin inserted
> by each of the last few users. The way it's explained by crews at Crich
> (one of these machines is fitted to their wheelchair-accessible Berlin
> tram) is that nobody knew who was secret police etc so nobody dared to not
> put in a coin, even though you could get away without paying if you did…
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
>