On 30/01/2022 00:29, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 29/01/2022 21:08, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 29/01/2022 20:45, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> On 29/01/2022 13:24, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful
>>>>>>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> urban
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> operating on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia,
>>>>>>>>>>>> which are
>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively
>>>>>>>>>>>> close to
>>>>>>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well
>>>>>>>>>>>> as here.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more
>>>>>>>>>>> akin to
>>>>>>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully
>>>>>>>>>>> segregated
>>>>>>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the
>>>>>>>>>> Norristown
>>>>>>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line
>>>>>>>>>> and the
>>>>>>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North
>>>>>>>>>>> American
>>>>>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak
>>>>>>>>>>> hours one way
>>>>>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the
>>>>>>>>>>> morning and
>>>>>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other
>>>>>>>>>>> service).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA
>>>>>>>>>> Commuter
>>>>>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line
>>>>>>>>>> East run
>>>>>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some
>>>>>>>>>> of these
>>>>>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to
>>>>>>>>>> peak, such as
>>>>>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley
>>>>>>>>>> Line, but
>>>>>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear
>>>>>>>>>>> definition
>>>>>>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from
>>>>>>>>>>> Berlin
>>>>>>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden
>>>>>>>>>>> where it is
>>>>>>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban
>>>>>>>>>>> services.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-standard,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>> standards
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to
>>>>>>>>>>>> be a cross
>>>>>>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from
>>>>>>>>>>>> South
>>>>>>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?
>>>>>>>>>>> Asside from
>>>>>>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking
>>>>>>>>>>> countries,
>>>>>>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the
>>>>>>>>>>> Munich
>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well
>>>>>>>>>>>> as the new
>>>>>>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing
>>>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely
>>>>>>>>>> closer
>>>>>>>>>> to RER.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn,
>>>>>>>>> compared with
>>>>>>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>>>>>>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
>>>>>>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose:
>>>>>>> S-Bahn
>>>>>>> was run by East Berlin,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>>>>>>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
>>>>>> respective sides.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don’t think the U-Bahn in the east was operated by the western
>>>>> authorities. I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket
>>>>> machine was
>>>>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When
>>>>> I did
>>>>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off
>>>>> one and
>>>>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners.
>>>>> On the
>>>>> subsequent trip the train ran through the tunnel with one of the
>>>>> doors wide
>>>>> open. So I think it highly unlikely that a western operator would
>>>>> allow
>>>>> this to happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west
>>>>> local
>>>>> population largely boycotted the system.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> According to Brian Hardy's book on the Berlin U-Bahn the east and
>>>> west sections of the system were administered separately. The U-Bahn
>>>> is also two different systems, one with a larger permitted profile
>>>> than the other. The larger was almost completely confined to West
>>>> Berlin.
>>>>
>>> I believe that there were but two lines in East Berlin.
>>
>> Two that passed through part of East Berlin then back into the west,
>> these were the ones that had the sealed stations in the east. Two
>> other lines terminated in the east and those ends were abandoned when
>> the border was closed.
>>
>
> I meant two U-Bahn Lines that were in East Berlin, not the ones that
> passed through.

On 30/01/2022 09:12, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <st3ojc$o12$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:05:00 on Sat, 29 Jan
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <83gavglb5spuji73h2hrcdq1glng55qnee@4ax.com>, at 13:26:44 on
>>> Sat, 29 Jan 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:15:03 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 15:32:30 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:36:26 +0000
>>>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu,
>>>>>>>>> 27 Jan
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of
>>>>>>>>>> arse
>>>>>>>>>> kissing
>>>>>>>>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but
>>>>>>>> apparently it
>>>>>>>> isn't.  This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
>>>>>>>> proportion of users.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The other problem is that the central service which will be the
>>>>>>> most used
>>>>>>> is going to be buggered up by problems on network rail either
>>>>>>> side just as
>>>>>>> happens on the east london line which should never have been
>>>>>>> extended beyond
>>>>>> its
>>>>>>> previous southern termini IMO given how good interchange already
>>>>>>> was.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With approximately half the service turning back at Paddington,
>>>>>> there's
>>>>>> scope for keeping a decent service through the core even if no
>>>>>> trains are
>>>>>> managing to run through to/from the GWML.
>>>>>
>>>>> Problem is when the entire service has to turn back plus a load of
>>>>> trains
>>>>> on the e/b waiting to enter the tunnel. I suspect things will
>>>>> quickly go to
>>>>> pot especially if the eastern section plays up at the same time. We
>>>>> all know
>>>>> how well reversing works on tube lines when they have issues on the
>>>>> periphery.
>>>>
>>>> It may be scenarios like those that will be among those rehearsed in
>>>> the coming weeks,
>>>
>>> What have they been doing the last three years, if not stuff like that?
>>
>> Trial running only started last May, not three years ago.
>
> I must be misremembering the 2018 announcement that the line was
> definitely going to open in mid-2019.
>
>>>> along with tunnel and station evacuations involving volunteers.
>>>
>>> Those would require the intermediate stations to be completely fitted
>>> out, but what is about them which isn't fitted out and thus causing the
>>> delay?
>>
>> That's only one station now. The rest have been handed over.
>
> I wonder if they regret having a station at Bond St at all? It's not as
> if the shops there are go-to destination any more.

But it still serves as an interchange.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 29/01/2022 21:13, Tweed wrote:
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>>>>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>>>>>>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>>>>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>>>>>>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>>>>>>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>>>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>>>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>>>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>>>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>>>>>>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>>>>>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>>>>>>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>>>>>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>>>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>>>>>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>>>>>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>>>>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer
>>>>>>>>>> to RER.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
>>>>>>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>>>>>>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
>>>>>>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
>>>>>>> was run by East Berlin,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>>>>>>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
>>>>>> respective sides.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don’t think the U-Bahn in the east was operated by the western
>>>>> authorities.
>>>>
>>>> That's what I said.
>>>>
>>>> I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket machine was
>>>>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When I did
>>>>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off one and
>>>>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners.
>>>>
>>>> Why would they try to "entrap westerners," using that method?
>>>>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west local
>>>>> population largely boycotted the system.
>>>>
>>>> I know.
>>>>
>>>> The fare was 30 pfennig in West Berlin and 30 ostpfennig in East Berlin.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry I misunderstood your original point about ownership.
>>>
>>> Entrapment was a fear. On the transit motorways they invented many methods
>>> of extracting fines. Sudden reductions in speed limits for spurious
>>> roadworks with a police car on attendance. Making it illegal to move into
>>> the faster lane to allow space for a car joining the motorway from a slip
>>> road.
>>
>> I heard about entrapment by the VoPo on the border and on the autobahn
>> corridor between Inner German border and West Berlin.
>>
>> I also know that it would cost DM5 to cross from West Berlin to East Berlin.
>>
>> But entrapment on the U-Bahn over a 20 ostpfennig ticket? I think that's
>> reaching.
>>
>
> Maybe, but I didn’t want to risk being the source of hard currency for a
> fine.
>
> After my day in East Berlin I couldn’t find anything to spend the residue
> of my 25 Ost Marks I was forced to change on the way over. It’s the only
> time I’ve put money in a litter bin.
>

In message <st5mns$lsv$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:45:31 on Sun, 30 Jan
2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>> What have they been doing the last three years, if not stuff like that?
>>>
>>> Trial running only started last May, not three years ago.

>> I must be misremembering the 2018 announcement that the line was
>>definitely going to open in mid-2019.
>>
>>>>> along with tunnel and station evacuations involving volunteers.
>>>>
>>>> Those would require the intermediate stations to be completely fitted
>>>> out, but what is about them which isn't fitted out and thus causing the
>>>> delay?
>>>
>>> That's only one station now. The rest have been handed over.

>> I wonder if they regret having a station at Bond St at all? It's not
>>as if the shops there are go-to destination any more.
>
>But it still serves as an interchange.

But not necessarily a particularly important one.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <st3ojc$o12$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:05:00 on Sat, 29 Jan
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <83gavglb5spuji73h2hrcdq1glng55qnee@4ax.com>, at 13:26:44 on
>>> Sat, 29 Jan 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:15:03 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 15:32:30 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:36:26 +0000
>>>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse
>>>>>>>>>> kissing
>>>>>>>>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>>>>>>>>> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
>>>>>>>> isn't. This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
>>>>>>>> proportion of users.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The other problem is that the central service which will be the most used
>>>>>>> is going to be buggered up by problems on network rail either
>>>>>>> side just as
>>>>>>> happens on the east london line which should never have been
>>>>>>> extended beyond
>>>>>> its
>>>>>>> previous southern termini IMO given how good interchange already was.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With approximately half the service turning back at Paddington, there's
>>>>>> scope for keeping a decent service through the core even if no trains are
>>>>>> managing to run through to/from the GWML.
>>>>>
>>>>> Problem is when the entire service has to turn back plus a load of trains
>>>>> on the e/b waiting to enter the tunnel. I suspect things will quickly go to
>>>>> pot especially if the eastern section plays up at the same time. We
>>>>> all know
>>>>> how well reversing works on tube lines when they have issues on the
>>>>> periphery.
>>>>
>>>> It may be scenarios like those that will be among those rehearsed in
>>>> the coming weeks,
>>>
>>> What have they been doing the last three years, if not stuff like that?
>>
>> Trial running only started last May, not three years ago.
>
> I must be misremembering the 2018 announcement that the line was
> definitely going to open in mid-2019.
>

We know that any announcements made back then were hopelessly optimistic.
As far as I've been able to determine from Google, the first serious test
running in the tunnel (4tph) began last May.

>>>> along with tunnel and station evacuations involving volunteers.
>>>
>>> Those would require the intermediate stations to be completely fitted
>>> out, but what is about them which isn't fitted out and thus causing the
>>> delay?
>>
>> That's only one station now. The rest have been handed over.
>
> I wonder if they regret having a station at Bond St at all? It's not as
> if the shops there are go-to destination any more.

It's one of the two main city centre stations, and one end of it basically
serves Oxford Circus. I'm not sure why anyone would think that not having a
station there would be advantageous.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 29/01/2022 21:13, Tweed wrote:
>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>>>>>>>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>>>>>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>>>>>>>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>>>>>>>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>>>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>>>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>>>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>>>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>>>>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>>>>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>>>>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>>>>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>>>>>>>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>>>>>>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>>>>>>>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>>>>>>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>>>>>>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>>>>>>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>>>>>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>>>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>>>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer
>>>>>>>>>>> to RER.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
>>>>>>>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>>>>>>>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
>>>>>>>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
>>>>>>>> was run by East Berlin,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>>>>>>>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
>>>>>>> respective sides.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don’t think the U-Bahn in the east was operated by the western
>>>>>> authorities.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's what I said.
>>>>>
>>>>> I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket machine was
>>>>>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When I did
>>>>>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off one and
>>>>>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why would they try to "entrap westerners," using that method?
>>>>>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west local
>>>>>> population largely boycotted the system.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know.
>>>>>
>>>>> The fare was 30 pfennig in West Berlin and 30 ostpfennig in East Berlin.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sorry I misunderstood your original point about ownership.
>>>>
>>>> Entrapment was a fear. On the transit motorways they invented many methods
>>>> of extracting fines. Sudden reductions in speed limits for spurious
>>>> roadworks with a police car on attendance. Making it illegal to move into
>>>> the faster lane to allow space for a car joining the motorway from a slip
>>>> road.
>>>
>>> I heard about entrapment by the VoPo on the border and on the autobahn
>>> corridor between Inner German border and West Berlin.
>>>
>>> I also know that it would cost DM5 to cross from West Berlin to East Berlin.
>>>
>>> But entrapment on the U-Bahn over a 20 ostpfennig ticket? I think that's
>>> reaching.
>>>
>>
>> Maybe, but I didn’t want to risk being the source of hard currency for a
>> fine.
>>
>> After my day in East Berlin I couldn’t find anything to spend the residue
>> of my 25 Ost Marks I was forced to change on the way over. It’s the only
>> time I’ve put money in a litter bin.
>>
>
> I think the more typical use was to buy music (presumably cassettes back
> then).
>
>

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <st5mns$lsv$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:45:31 on Sun, 30 Jan
> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>> What have they been doing the last three years, if not stuff like that?
>>>>
>>>> Trial running only started last May, not three years ago.
>
>>> I must be misremembering the 2018 announcement that the line was
>>> definitely going to open in mid-2019.
>>>
>>>>>> along with tunnel and station evacuations involving volunteers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Those would require the intermediate stations to be completely fitted
>>>>> out, but what is about them which isn't fitted out and thus causing the
>>>>> delay?
>>>>
>>>> That's only one station now. The rest have been handed over.
>
>>> I wonder if they regret having a station at Bond St at all? It's not
>>> as if the shops there are go-to destination any more.
>>
>> But it still serves as an interchange.
>
> But not necessarily a particularly important one.

Not important as a route to get to Westminster and Waterloo?

In message <st624c$9fs$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:59:56 on Sun, 30 Jan
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <st5mns$lsv$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:45:31 on Sun, 30 Jan
>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>> What have they been doing the last three years, if not stuff like that?
>>>>>
>>>>> Trial running only started last May, not three years ago.
>>
>>>> I must be misremembering the 2018 announcement that the line was
>>>> definitely going to open in mid-2019.
>>>>
>>>>>>> along with tunnel and station evacuations involving volunteers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those would require the intermediate stations to be completely fitted
>>>>>> out, but what is about them which isn't fitted out and thus causing the
>>>>>> delay?
>>>>>
>>>>> That's only one station now. The rest have been handed over.
>>
>>>> I wonder if they regret having a station at Bond St at all? It's not
>>>> as if the shops there are go-to destination any more.
>>>
>>> But it still serves as an interchange.
>>
>> But not necessarily a particularly important one.
>
>Not important as a route to get to Westminster and Waterloo?

Not a massive flow in any event. Anyway I expect the Sainted May had a
car to take her from Maidenhead to Westminster (and even then, only once
a week).
--
Roland Perry

In message <st614b$2d0$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:42:52 on Sun, 30 Jan
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <st3ojc$o12$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:05:00 on Sat, 29 Jan
>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <83gavglb5spuji73h2hrcdq1glng55qnee@4ax.com>, at 13:26:44 on
>>>> Sat, 29 Jan 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:15:03 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 15:32:30 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:36:26 +0000
>>>>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse
>>>>>>>>>>> kissing
>>>>>>>>>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>>>>>>>>>> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
>>>>>>>>> isn't. This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
>>>>>>>>> proportion of users.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The other problem is that the central service which will be the
>>>>>>>>most used
>>>>>>>> is going to be buggered up by problems on network rail either
>>>>>>>> side just as
>>>>>>>> happens on the east london line which should never have been
>>>>>>>> extended beyond
>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>> previous southern termini IMO given how good interchange already was.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With approximately half the service turning back at Paddington, there's
>>>>>>> scope for keeping a decent service through the core even if no
>>>>>>>trains are
>>>>>>> managing to run through to/from the GWML.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Problem is when the entire service has to turn back plus a load of trains
>>>>>> on the e/b waiting to enter the tunnel. I suspect things will
>>>>>>quickly go to
>>>>>> pot especially if the eastern section plays up at the same time. We
>>>>>> all know
>>>>>> how well reversing works on tube lines when they have issues on the
>>>>>> periphery.
>>>>>
>>>>> It may be scenarios like those that will be among those rehearsed in
>>>>> the coming weeks,
>>>>
>>>> What have they been doing the last three years, if not stuff like that?
>>>
>>> Trial running only started last May, not three years ago.
>>
>> I must be misremembering the 2018 announcement that the line was
>> definitely going to open in mid-2019.
>
>We know that any announcements made back then were hopelessly optimistic.
>As far as I've been able to determine from Google, the first serious test
>running in the tunnel (4tph) began last May.
>
>>>>> along with tunnel and station evacuations involving volunteers.
>>>>
>>>> Those would require the intermediate stations to be completely fitted
>>>> out, but what is about them which isn't fitted out and thus causing the
>>>> delay?
>>>
>>> That's only one station now. The rest have been handed over.
>>
>> I wonder if they regret having a station at Bond St at all? It's not as
>> if the shops there are go-to destination any more.
>
>It's one of the two main city centre stations, and one end of it basically
>serves Oxford Circus. I'm not sure why anyone would think that not having a
>station there would be advantageous.

Saving a few billion quid, for starters.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 13:37:56 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <st624c$9fs$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:59:56 on Sun, 30 Jan
>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <st5mns$lsv$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:45:31 on Sun, 30 Jan
>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>>> What have they been doing the last three years, if not stuff like that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Trial running only started last May, not three years ago.
>>>
>>>>> I must be misremembering the 2018 announcement that the line was
>>>>> definitely going to open in mid-2019.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> along with tunnel and station evacuations involving volunteers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Those would require the intermediate stations to be completely fitted
>>>>>>> out, but what is about them which isn't fitted out and thus causing the
>>>>>>> delay?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's only one station now. The rest have been handed over.
>>>
>>>>> I wonder if they regret having a station at Bond St at all? It's not
>>>>> as if the shops there are go-to destination any more.
>>>>
>>>> But it still serves as an interchange.
>>>
>>> But not necessarily a particularly important one.
>>
>>Not important as a route to get to Westminster and Waterloo?
>
>Not a massive flow in any event. Anyway I expect the Sainted May had a
>car to take her from Maidenhead to Westminster (and even then, only once
>a week).

What has May got to do with it?

And, BTW, she travelled back to Maidenhead a lot more than once a week. She hated the Downing St flat, and spent as
little time as possible there.

On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 13:38:43 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <st614b$2d0$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:42:52 on Sun, 30 Jan
>2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <st3ojc$o12$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:05:00 on Sat, 29 Jan
>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <83gavglb5spuji73h2hrcdq1glng55qnee@4ax.com>, at 13:26:44 on
>>>>> Sat, 29 Jan 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:15:03 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 15:32:30 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:36:26 +0000
>>>>>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse
>>>>>>>>>>>> kissing
>>>>>>>>>>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>>>>>>>>>>> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
>>>>>>>>>> isn't. This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
>>>>>>>>>> proportion of users.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The other problem is that the central service which will be the
>>>>>>>>>most used
>>>>>>>>> is going to be buggered up by problems on network rail either
>>>>>>>>> side just as
>>>>>>>>> happens on the east london line which should never have been
>>>>>>>>> extended beyond
>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>> previous southern termini IMO given how good interchange already was.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With approximately half the service turning back at Paddington, there's
>>>>>>>> scope for keeping a decent service through the core even if no
>>>>>>>>trains are
>>>>>>>> managing to run through to/from the GWML.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Problem is when the entire service has to turn back plus a load of trains
>>>>>>> on the e/b waiting to enter the tunnel. I suspect things will
>>>>>>>quickly go to
>>>>>>> pot especially if the eastern section plays up at the same time. We
>>>>>>> all know
>>>>>>> how well reversing works on tube lines when they have issues on the
>>>>>>> periphery.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It may be scenarios like those that will be among those rehearsed in
>>>>>> the coming weeks,
>>>>>
>>>>> What have they been doing the last three years, if not stuff like that?
>>>>
>>>> Trial running only started last May, not three years ago.
>>>
>>> I must be misremembering the 2018 announcement that the line was
>>> definitely going to open in mid-2019.
>>
>>We know that any announcements made back then were hopelessly optimistic.
>>As far as I've been able to determine from Google, the first serious test
>>running in the tunnel (4tph) began last May.
>>
>>>>>> along with tunnel and station evacuations involving volunteers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Those would require the intermediate stations to be completely fitted
>>>>> out, but what is about them which isn't fitted out and thus causing the
>>>>> delay?
>>>>
>>>> That's only one station now. The rest have been handed over.
>>>
>>> I wonder if they regret having a station at Bond St at all? It's not as
>>> if the shops there are go-to destination any more.
>>
>>It's one of the two main city centre stations, and one end of it basically
>>serves Oxford Circus. I'm not sure why anyone would think that not having a
>>station there would be advantageous.
>
>Saving a few billion quid, for starters.

Crossrail is meant to serve London, and not just provide a tunnel under it. That's the main station serving the West
End, not just the local shops.

In message <1a7dvglp3g90691ub7kuj73em2m442rnne@4ax.com>, at 14:15:30 on
Sun, 30 Jan 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>>> I wonder if they regret having a station at Bond St at all? It's not as
>>>> if the shops there are go-to destination any more.
>>>
>>>It's one of the two main city centre stations, and one end of it basically
>>>serves Oxford Circus. I'm not sure why anyone would think that not having a
>>>station there would be advantageous.
>>
>>Saving a few billion quid, for starters.
>
>Crossrail is meant to serve London, and not just provide a tunnel under
>it. That's the main station serving the West
>End, not just the local shops.

It's a shame they've so comprehensively botched the build process.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 14:37:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <1a7dvglp3g90691ub7kuj73em2m442rnne@4ax.com>, at 14:15:30 on
>Sun, 30 Jan 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>>> I wonder if they regret having a station at Bond St at all? It's not as
>>>>> if the shops there are go-to destination any more.
>>>>
>>>>It's one of the two main city centre stations, and one end of it basically
>>>>serves Oxford Circus. I'm not sure why anyone would think that not having a
>>>>station there would be advantageous.
>>>
>>>Saving a few billion quid, for starters.
>>
>>Crossrail is meant to serve London, and not just provide a tunnel under
>>it. That's the main station serving the West
>>End, not just the local shops.
>
>It's a shame they've so comprehensively botched the build process.

I'm still not clear what went so badly wrong at that one station. It wasn't the most complicated, nor the most difficult
site, so I assume it must have been errors by the contractors.

On 30/01/2022 12:57, Tweed wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 29/01/2022 21:13, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>>>>>>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>>>>>>>>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>>>>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>>>>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>>>>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>>>>>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>>>>>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>>>>>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>>>>>>>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>>>>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>>>>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer
>>>>>>>>>>>> to RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
>>>>>>>>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>>>>>>>>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
>>>>>>>>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
>>>>>>>>> was run by East Berlin,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>>>>>>>>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
>>>>>>>> respective sides.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don’t think the U-Bahn in the east was operated by the western
>>>>>>> authorities.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's what I said.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket machine was
>>>>>>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When I did
>>>>>>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off one and
>>>>>>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why would they try to "entrap westerners," using that method?
>>>>>>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west local
>>>>>>> population largely boycotted the system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The fare was 30 pfennig in West Berlin and 30 ostpfennig in East Berlin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry I misunderstood your original point about ownership.
>>>>>
>>>>> Entrapment was a fear. On the transit motorways they invented many methods
>>>>> of extracting fines. Sudden reductions in speed limits for spurious
>>>>> roadworks with a police car on attendance. Making it illegal to move into
>>>>> the faster lane to allow space for a car joining the motorway from a slip
>>>>> road.
>>>>
>>>> I heard about entrapment by the VoPo on the border and on the autobahn
>>>> corridor between Inner German border and West Berlin.
>>>>
>>>> I also know that it would cost DM5 to cross from West Berlin to East Berlin.
>>>>
>>>> But entrapment on the U-Bahn over a 20 ostpfennig ticket? I think that's
>>>> reaching.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe, but I didn’t want to risk being the source of hard currency for a
>>> fine.
>>>
>>> After my day in East Berlin I couldn’t find anything to spend the residue
>>> of my 25 Ost Marks I was forced to change on the way over. It’s the only
>>> time I’ve put money in a litter bin.
>>>
>>
>> I think the more typical use was to buy music (presumably cassettes back
>> then).
>>
>>
>
> Not enough residue. Managed to spend some of it on a meal - went to a
> peoples restaurant at the far end of the tram line (the day visa did not
> allow travel beyond the city boundary) to see what things were like beyond
> the central part where great efforts had been made to make things looks as
> affluent as the west. Said restaurant had an impressive menu until you
> tried to order. It soon transpired it was a work of fiction and most items
> were not available. Managed to waste a bit more on some ice cream and
> coffees. That trip and some visits in recent years to museums of communism
> in other former eastern bloc countries have made me very wary of the left
> who claim to want to do things for the good of the working person.
>

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2022-01-28 22:23:29 +0000, Sam Wilson said:
>
>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 2022-01-28 09:48:33 +0000, NY said:
>>>
>>>> "Bob" <email@domain.com> wrote in message news:st0dgv$pna$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>
>>>>> While the characteristic of peak hours only, one way tidal flow is not
>>>>> a universal characteristic, it is a feature of several systems, and in
>>>>> some discussion of the systems in operation, some people do make the
>>>>> distinction between commuter rail, with this peculiar characteristic,
>>>>> and regional or suburban rail, to imply a more consistent service
>>>>> pattern. I just thought it was worth mentioning this in order to avoid
>>>>> the potential for misunderstanding how terms are used. For example,
>>>>> from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_rail_in_North_America
>>>>
>>>> If the trains have to run from the suburbs to the city in the morning,
>>>> what is the disadvantage of them carrying passengers in the opposite
>>>> direction (city to suburbs) rather than running lots of trains as ECS
>>>> in one direction and passenger-carrying in the other?
>>>
>>> If you would believe it, the approach is usually to have as many train
>>> sets as there are morning and evening services, with each one spending
>>> the night in a siding at the end of the line, then running one service
>>> to the city, where it then parks in a siding and returns to the suburb
>>> in the evening. Part of the reason for this is that these kinds of
>>> services often run over single track with significant freight use, so
>>> there are simply no paths for them to do anything mroe than one run in
>>> in the morning and one out in the evening.
>>
>> That was pretty much the service pattern of the GO trains in Toronto when I
>> was there in the late 90s; I don’t know if they’ve changed now - it’s
>> difficult to find a timetable on the GOtransit site.
>
> That is certainly how GO started out, and how it operated for many
> years. It is now very much working its way into beign a more useful
> regional suburban railway netwrok with proper all day service on most
> of its lines and now elecrifying several key routes. The GO network is
> in the process of transforming itself from "commuter rail" in this
> narrow sense into something more like an S-Bahn or RER for the GTA now,
> much to the benefit of all involved.

Thank you,

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 30/01/2022 12:57, Tweed wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 29/01/2022 21:13, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>>>>>>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>>>>>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
>>>>>>>>>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>>>>>>>>>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
>>>>>>>>>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
>>>>>>>>>> was run by East Berlin,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>>>>>>>>>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
>>>>>>>>> respective sides.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don’t think the U-Bahn in the east was operated by the western
>>>>>>>> authorities.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's what I said.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket machine was
>>>>>>>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When I did
>>>>>>>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off one and
>>>>>>>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why would they try to "entrap westerners," using that method?
>>>>>>>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west local
>>>>>>>> population largely boycotted the system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The fare was 30 pfennig in West Berlin and 30 ostpfennig in East Berlin.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry I misunderstood your original point about ownership.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Entrapment was a fear. On the transit motorways they invented many methods
>>>>>> of extracting fines. Sudden reductions in speed limits for spurious
>>>>>> roadworks with a police car on attendance. Making it illegal to move into
>>>>>> the faster lane to allow space for a car joining the motorway from a slip
>>>>>> road.
>>>>>
>>>>> I heard about entrapment by the VoPo on the border and on the autobahn
>>>>> corridor between Inner German border and West Berlin.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also know that it would cost DM5 to cross from West Berlin to East Berlin.
>>>>>
>>>>> But entrapment on the U-Bahn over a 20 ostpfennig ticket? I think that's
>>>>> reaching.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe, but I didn’t want to risk being the source of hard currency for a
>>>> fine.
>>>>
>>>> After my day in East Berlin I couldn’t find anything to spend the residue
>>>> of my 25 Ost Marks I was forced to change on the way over. It’s the only
>>>> time I’ve put money in a litter bin.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think the more typical use was to buy music (presumably cassettes back
>>> then).
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Not enough residue. Managed to spend some of it on a meal - went to a
>> peoples restaurant at the far end of the tram line (the day visa did not
>> allow travel beyond the city boundary) to see what things were like beyond
>> the central part where great efforts had been made to make things looks as
>> affluent as the west. Said restaurant had an impressive menu until you
>> tried to order. It soon transpired it was a work of fiction and most items
>> were not available. Managed to waste a bit more on some ice cream and
>> coffees. That trip and some visits in recent years to museums of communism
>> in other former eastern bloc countries have made me very wary of the left
>> who claim to want to do things for the good of the working person.
>>
>
> I assume you've seen the DDR museum in Berlin? It's very good, and no, I
> couldn't get the Trabant to start!
>

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 30/01/2022 12:57, Tweed wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 29/01/2022 21:13, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>>>>>>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>>>>>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
>>>>>>>>>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>>>>>>>>>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
>>>>>>>>>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
>>>>>>>>>> was run by East Berlin,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>>>>>>>>>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
>>>>>>>>> respective sides.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don’t think the U-Bahn in the east was operated by the western
>>>>>>>> authorities.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's what I said.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket machine was
>>>>>>>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When I did
>>>>>>>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off one and
>>>>>>>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why would they try to "entrap westerners," using that method?
>>>>>>>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west local
>>>>>>>> population largely boycotted the system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The fare was 30 pfennig in West Berlin and 30 ostpfennig in East Berlin.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry I misunderstood your original point about ownership.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Entrapment was a fear. On the transit motorways they invented many methods
>>>>>> of extracting fines. Sudden reductions in speed limits for spurious
>>>>>> roadworks with a police car on attendance. Making it illegal to move into
>>>>>> the faster lane to allow space for a car joining the motorway from a slip
>>>>>> road.
>>>>>
>>>>> I heard about entrapment by the VoPo on the border and on the autobahn
>>>>> corridor between Inner German border and West Berlin.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also know that it would cost DM5 to cross from West Berlin to East Berlin.
>>>>>
>>>>> But entrapment on the U-Bahn over a 20 ostpfennig ticket? I think that's
>>>>> reaching.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe, but I didn’t want to risk being the source of hard currency for a
>>>> fine.
>>>>
>>>> After my day in East Berlin I couldn’t find anything to spend the residue
>>>> of my 25 Ost Marks I was forced to change on the way over. It’s the only
>>>> time I’ve put money in a litter bin.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think the more typical use was to buy music (presumably cassettes back
>>> then).
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Not enough residue. Managed to spend some of it on a meal - went to a
>> peoples restaurant at the far end of the tram line (the day visa did not
>> allow travel beyond the city boundary) to see what things were like beyond
>> the central part where great efforts had been made to make things looks as
>> affluent as the west. Said restaurant had an impressive menu until you
>> tried to order. It soon transpired it was a work of fiction and most items
>> were not available. Managed to waste a bit more on some ice cream and
>> coffees. That trip and some visits in recent years to museums of communism
>> in other former eastern bloc countries have made me very wary of the left
>> who claim to want to do things for the good of the working person.
>>
>
> I assume you've seen the DDR museum in Berlin? It's very good, and no, I
> couldn't get the Trabant to start!
>

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <st614b$2d0$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:42:52 on Sun, 30 Jan
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> I wonder if they regret having a station at Bond St at all? It's not as
>>> if the shops there are go-to destination any more.
>>
>> It's one of the two main city centre stations, and one end of it basically
>> serves Oxford Circus. I'm not sure why anyone would think that not having a
>> station there would be advantageous.
>
> Saving a few billion quid, for starters.

Might as well cut out all the stops between Paddington and Stratford/Canary
Wharf then, save a few more?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 30/01/2022 09:30, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 30/01/2022 00:29, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 29/01/2022 21:08, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 29/01/2022 20:45, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>> On 29/01/2022 13:24, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to urban
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operating on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> which are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively
>>>>>>>>>>>>> close to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more
>>>>>>>>>>>> akin to
>>>>>>>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully
>>>>>>>>>>>> segregated
>>>>>>>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the
>>>>>>>>>>> Norristown
>>>>>>>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line
>>>>>>>>>>> and the
>>>>>>>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a
>>>>>>>>>>>> North American
>>>>>>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak
>>>>>>>>>>>> hours one way
>>>>>>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> morning and
>>>>>>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other
>>>>>>>>>>>> service).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA
>>>>>>>>>>> Commuter
>>>>>>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line
>>>>>>>>>>> East run
>>>>>>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some
>>>>>>>>>>> of these
>>>>>>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to
>>>>>>>>>>> peak, such as
>>>>>>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley
>>>>>>>>>>> Line, but
>>>>>>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear
>>>>>>>>>>>> definition
>>>>>>>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from
>>>>>>>>>>>> Berlin
>>>>>>>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden
>>>>>>>>>>>> where it is
>>>>>>>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban
>>>>>>>>>>>> services.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-standard,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> standards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be a cross
>>>>>>>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> South
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Asside from
>>>>>>>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking
>>>>>>>>>>>> countries,
>>>>>>>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Munich
>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as the new
>>>>>>>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing
>>>>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>>>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>>>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely
>>>>>>>>>>> closer
>>>>>>>>>>> to RER.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn,
>>>>>>>>>> compared with
>>>>>>>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>>>>>>>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and
>>>>>>>> U-Bahn
>>>>>>>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose:
>>>>>>>> S-Bahn
>>>>>>>> was run by East Berlin,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>>>>>>>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
>>>>>>> respective sides.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don’t think the U-Bahn in the east was operated by the western
>>>>>> authorities. I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket
>>>>>> machine was
>>>>>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When
>>>>>> I did
>>>>>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off
>>>>>> one and
>>>>>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap
>>>>>> westerners. On the
>>>>>> subsequent trip the train ran through the tunnel with one of the
>>>>>> doors wide
>>>>>> open. So I think it highly unlikely that a western operator would
>>>>>> allow
>>>>>> this to happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west
>>>>>> local
>>>>>> population largely boycotted the system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> According to Brian Hardy's book on the Berlin U-Bahn the east and
>>>>> west sections of the system were administered separately. The
>>>>> U-Bahn is also two different systems, one with a larger permitted
>>>>> profile than the other. The larger was almost completely confined
>>>>> to West Berlin.
>>>>>
>>>> I believe that there were but two lines in East Berlin.
>>>
>>> Two that passed through part of East Berlin then back into the west,
>>> these were the ones that had the sealed stations in the east. Two
>>> other lines terminated in the east and those ends were abandoned when
>>> the border was closed.
>>>
>>
>> I meant two U-Bahn Lines that were in East Berlin, not the ones that
>> passed through.
>
> Line A, small profile, was split into two halves, east and west with no
> through running. Line G, large profile, was wholly in East Berlin.
>
Line G is now U5, correct?

On 30/01/2022 08:23, Tweed wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 29/01/2022 21:13, Tweed wrote:
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>>>>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>>>>>>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>>>>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>>>>>>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>>>>>>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>>>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>>>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>>>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>>>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>>>>>>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>>>>>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>>>>>>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>>>>>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>>>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>>>>>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>>>>>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>>>>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer
>>>>>>>>>> to RER.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
>>>>>>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>>>>>>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
>>>>>>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
>>>>>>> was run by East Berlin,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>>>>>>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
>>>>>> respective sides.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don’t think the U-Bahn in the east was operated by the western
>>>>> authorities.
>>>>
>>>> That's what I said.
>>>>
>>>> I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket machine was
>>>>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When I did
>>>>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off one and
>>>>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners.
>>>>
>>>> Why would they try to "entrap westerners," using that method?
>>>>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west local
>>>>> population largely boycotted the system.
>>>>
>>>> I know.
>>>>
>>>> The fare was 30 pfennig in West Berlin and 30 ostpfennig in East Berlin.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry I misunderstood your original point about ownership.
>>>
>>> Entrapment was a fear. On the transit motorways they invented many methods
>>> of extracting fines. Sudden reductions in speed limits for spurious
>>> roadworks with a police car on attendance. Making it illegal to move into
>>> the faster lane to allow space for a car joining the motorway from a slip
>>> road.
>>
>> I heard about entrapment by the VoPo on the border and on the autobahn
>> corridor between Inner German border and West Berlin.
>>
>> I also know that it would cost DM5 to cross from West Berlin to East Berlin.
>>
>> But entrapment on the U-Bahn over a 20 ostpfennig ticket? I think that's
>> reaching.
>>
>
> Maybe, but I didn’t want to risk being the source of hard currency for a
> fine.
>
> After my day in East Berlin I couldn’t find anything to spend the residue
> of my 25 Ost Marks I was forced to change on the way over. It’s the only
> time I’ve put money in a litter bin.
>
Or you could have kept it as a souvenir.