hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>
>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the
>>>>>>>>>> underground?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>> constructed,
>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>
>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>
>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>
>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to an
>> S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated metro.
>
> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
> Line is still an Interurban.
>
> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>
>
>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and from
>> the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>
> Huh?
>
> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>
> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>
> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
> they've pretty much gone full time.
>
> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>
>> In terms
>> of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition as
>> different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin where it
>> is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is little
>> more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>
>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards to
>>>> which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that sense
>>>> Overground
>>>
>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>
>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>
>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>
>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>
>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>> S-Bahn and RER.
>
> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service, whereas
> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.

The third-rail S-Bahn in Germany are just Berlin and Hamburg. All the
others use overhead AC electrification, and loco-hauled push-pull is not
unknown (e.g. Dresden).

And in Switzerland, all sorts of trains have the “S” designation in their
route codes, so these are all S-Bahn services:

https://flic.kr/p/4y9B5H
https://flic.kr/p/4ydRWw
https://flic.kr/p/4y9MXa
https://flic.kr/p/4y9NNc

--
Jeremy Double

"Certes" <none@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:st0mgg$m1f$1@dont-email.me...
>> 3-00/2-50 via
>> Willesden Junction + Bakerloo Line
>> Shepherds Bush (OSI) + Central Line
>> Balham (OSI) + Northern Line
>> (i.e. not changing NR/LU at a London Terminal)
>
> I never thought of Balham as a gateway to the North.

That's Bal-ham.

Until I looked it up, I couldn't remember whether "Bal-ham Gateway to the
South" was a Goons/Seller spoof https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RTWk9QIKS0
or from a genuine Telly Savalas travelog(ue) of this sort
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoHVO1eSMFc.

"NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
news:st0mqu$rp5$1@dont-email.me...
> "Certes" <none@nowhere.net> wrote in message
> news:st0mgg$m1f$1@dont-email.me...
>>> 3-00/2-50 via
>>> Willesden Junction + Bakerloo Line
>>> Shepherds Bush (OSI) + Central Line
>>> Balham (OSI) + Northern Line
>>> (i.e. not changing NR/LU at a London Terminal)
>>
>> I never thought of Balham as a gateway to the North.
>
> That's Bal-ham.
>
> Until I looked it up, I couldn't remember whether "Bal-ham Gateway to the
> South" was a Goons/Seller spoof
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RTWk9QIKS0 or from a genuine Telly
> Savalas travelog(ue) of this sort
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoHVO1eSMFc.

Effectively Peter Sellers in 1958 did a "pre-piss-take" of Telly Savalas's
1970s travelogues ;-) Or did Savalas knowingly or accidentally copy
Sellers's style?

In message <st0iaa$r5g$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:59:22 on Fri, 28 Jan
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <rjf6vg9ar9mu2n8vichsu9gl40jdps684d@4ax.com>, at 01:22:02 on
>> Fri, 28 Jan 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>> remarked:
>>
>>>>>> Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal
>>>>>>system, where
>>>>>> that rail is within the zone system.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes and no. I used to visit somewhere near Vauxhall, and it definitely
>>>>> cost more to get back to the East End via Waterloo Mainline (then
>>>>> probably W&C and Central Line), than exclusively using the tube.
>>>>
>>>> I thought that differential pricing ended many years ago when the zonal
>>>> sydtem superseded it.
>>>>
>>> No, things like e.g. different peak times on NR routes can still make
>>> a difference.
>>
>> See also the infamous Mayoral promise to freeze fares for London
>> commuters, which turned out not to include some tickets involving
>> a leg on NR.
>
>Did he not always qualify that he would be freezing TfL fares?

No, specifically:

"Londoners won't pay a penny more for their travel in 2020 than they
do today" and when questioned about the detail:

"I want to be crystal clear - no ifs, no buts - what you'll pay if I'm
elected Mayor in May 2016 is what you'll pay at the end of my 4 years
in office."
--
Roland Perry

In message <st0973$uau$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:24:03 on Fri, 28 Jan
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ssut48$ca$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:51:36 on Thu, 27 Jan 2022,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 27/01/2022 18:04, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>>>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>>>>>>> better. We can
>>>>>>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not
>>>>>>>>>>>> a decision
>>>>>>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will
>>>>>>>>>>>refer to it
>>>>>>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>>>>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>>>>>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>>>>>>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>>>>>>> 16352/>
>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal
>>>>> system, where that rail is within the zone system. Why would
>>>>> Crossrail be any different? I get the feeling folk are looking for
>>>>> problems that don’t really exist for the vast majority of users.
>>>>> Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of everything?
>>>>>
>>>> All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
>>>> but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
>>>
>>> Well does it have a separate gate line to stations with which it shares
>>> with the conventional underground? If not, how will they know how you get
>>> from one NR terminus to another?
>>
>> The only changes his trip involve is GWR-EL at Reading, and EL-GA at
>> Liverpool St.
>
>I was thinking more in the general case than that specific journey.

But he's asking about a specific journey.

>Unless EL is separately gated from shared underground stations I
>can’t see how anyone could control how you get from one NR terminus
>to another.

That too.
--
Roland Perry

In message <st0iab$r5g$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:59:23 on Fri, 28 Jan
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ssut48$ca$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:51:36 on Thu, 27 Jan 2022,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 27/01/2022 18:04, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>>>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>>>>>>> better. We can
>>>>>>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not
>>>>>>>>>>>> a decision
>>>>>>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will
>>>>>>>>>>>refer to it
>>>>>>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>>>>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>>>>>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>>>>>>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>>>>>>> 16352/>
>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal
>>>>> system, where that rail is within the zone system. Why would
>>>>> Crossrail be any different? I get the feeling folk are looking for
>>>>> problems that don’t really exist for the vast majority of users.
>>>>> Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of everything?
>>>>>
>>>> All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
>>>> but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
>>>
>>> Well does it have a separate gate line to stations with which it shares
>>> with the conventional underground? If not, how will they know how you get
>>> from one NR terminus to another?
>>
>> The only changes his trip involve is GWR-EL at Reading, and EL-GA at
>> Liverpool St.
>
>There will be gate lines between them at Liverpool St.

Won't the only gate line that matters be the one onto the GA platforms,
which are hardly likely to refuse a National Rail ticket on GA metals.
--
Roland Perry

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> Effectively Peter Sellers in 1958 did a "pre-piss-take" of Telly Savalas's
> 1970s travelogues ;-) Or did Savalas knowingly or accidentally copy
> Sellers's style?

They went back a long way before then:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_A._FitzPatrick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1Db-PmNezk

Theo

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 12:53:54 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <st0iaa$r5g$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:59:22 on Fri, 28 Jan
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <rjf6vg9ar9mu2n8vichsu9gl40jdps684d@4ax.com>, at 01:22:02 on
>>> Fri, 28 Jan 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>> Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal
>>>>>>>system, where
>>>>>>> that rail is within the zone system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes and no. I used to visit somewhere near Vauxhall, and it definitely
>>>>>> cost more to get back to the East End via Waterloo Mainline (then
>>>>>> probably W&C and Central Line), than exclusively using the tube.
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought that differential pricing ended many years ago when the zonal
>>>>> sydtem superseded it.
>>>>>
>>>> No, things like e.g. different peak times on NR routes can still make
>>>> a difference.
>>>
>>> See also the infamous Mayoral promise to freeze fares for London
>>> commuters, which turned out not to include some tickets involving
>>> a leg on NR.
>>
>>Did he not always qualify that he would be freezing TfL fares?
>
>No, specifically:
>
> "Londoners won't pay a penny more for their travel in 2020 than they
> do today" and when questioned about the detail:
>
> "I want to be crystal clear - no ifs, no buts - what you'll pay if I'm
> elected Mayor in May 2016 is what you'll pay at the end of my 4 years
> in office."

That's a second-hand quote. What his manifesto actually said was:
"Freeze TfL transport fares for four
years and introduce a one-hour
bus ‘Hopper’ ticket, paid for by
making TfL more efficient and
exploring new revenue-raising
opportunities. Londoners won’t
pay a penny more for their travel
in 2020 than they do today."

<https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/569cb9526a21db3279000001/attachments/original/1457451016/x160668_Sadiq_Khan_Manifesto.pdf?1457451016>

Ironically, he really didn't need to make this foolish pledge: he'd have beaten Goldsmith easily without it. Perhaps he
should just have made a one-year freeze pledge?

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 12:56:47 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <st0iab$r5g$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:59:23 on Fri, 28 Jan
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ssut48$ca$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:51:36 on Thu, 27 Jan 2022,
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 27/01/2022 18:04, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>>>>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>>>>>>>> better. We can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a decision
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will
>>>>>>>>>>>>refer to it
>>>>>>>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>>>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>>>>>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>>>>>>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>>>>>>>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>>>>>>>> 16352/>
>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal
>>>>>> system, where that rail is within the zone system. Why would
>>>>>> Crossrail be any different? I get the feeling folk are looking for
>>>>>> problems that don’t really exist for the vast majority of users.
>>>>>> Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of everything?
>>>>>>
>>>>> All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
>>>>> but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
>>>>
>>>> Well does it have a separate gate line to stations with which it shares
>>>> with the conventional underground? If not, how will they know how you get
>>>> from one NR terminus to another?
>>>
>>> The only changes his trip involve is GWR-EL at Reading, and EL-GA at
>>> Liverpool St.
>>
>>There will be gate lines between them at Liverpool St.
>
>Won't the only gate line that matters be the one onto the GA platforms,
>which are hardly likely to refuse a National Rail ticket on GA metals.

What about exiting through the TfL gateline?

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:14:24 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 27/01/2022 10:03, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>> ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
>>>> separate from the whole.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>>> that could be reversed.
>>
>> To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee) probably thought
>
>> it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly not
>happening
>> SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to rebrand it
>
>> 10 years down the road.
>>
>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse kissing
>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>
>
>Could have been worse, there was a vociferous campaign to have it named
>the Princess Diana Line, after they failed to get Heathrow renamed after
>her.

Yeah, that would be grim. Even worse if the drivers had to have a pout and
a fringe too :)

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:10:36 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>> ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
>>>> separate from the whole.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We
>can
>>>thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>>>that could be reversed.
>>
>>To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee) probably thought
>>it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly not happening
>
>>SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to rebrand it
>>10 years down the road.
>>
>>Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse kissing
>>naff but we're stuck with it now.
>
>Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?

It irritates me not because of the name so much - which no doubt will be
shortened to the liz(zy) line pretty soon , if not by the public then certainly
the tabloids - but because it was a clear case of Boris sucking up to HRH.

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:36:26 +0000
martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>On 27/01/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse
>>> kissing
>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>
>> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>
>Yes.
>
>The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
>isn't. This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
>proportion of users.

The other problem is that the central service which will be the most used
is going to be buggered up by problems on network rail either side just as
happens on the east london line which should never have been extended beyond its
previous southern termini IMO given how good interchange already was.

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Bob" <email@domain.com> wrote in message news:st0dgv$pna$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>> While the characteristic of peak hours only, one way tidal flow is not a
>> universal characteristic, it is a feature of several systems, and in some
>> discussion of the systems in operation, some people do make the
>> distinction between commuter rail, with this peculiar characteristic, and
>> regional or suburban rail, to imply a more consistent service pattern. I
>> just thought it was worth mentioning this in order to avoid the potential
>> for misunderstanding how terms are used. For example, from
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_rail_in_North_America
>
> If the trains have to run from the suburbs to the city in the morning, what
> is the disadvantage of them carrying passengers in the opposite direction
> (city to suburbs) rather than running lots of trains as ECS in one direction
> and passenger-carrying in the other?
>

Do they run ECS in the counter-direction? Or do they stable overnight in
one location and during the daytime in another location?

How much demand is there for very-early and very-late counter-flow travel,
with nothing in between?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:36:26 +0000
> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>> On 27/01/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse
>>>> kissing
>>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>>
>>> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>>> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
>> isn't. This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
>> proportion of users.
>
> The other problem is that the central service which will be the most used
> is going to be buggered up by problems on network rail either side just as
> happens on the east london line which should never have been extended beyond its
> previous southern termini IMO given how good interchange already was.
>
>

With approximately half the service turning back at Paddington, there's
scope for keeping a decent service through the core even if no trains are
managing to run through to/from the GWML.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 28/01/2022 09:48, NY wrote:
> "Bob" <email@domain.com> wrote in message
> news:st0dgv$pna$1@dont-email.me...
>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North
>>>> American context, as that often is used for systems that are peak
>>>> hours one way only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in
>>>> the morning and from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no
>>>> other service).
>>>
>>> Huh?
>>>
>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East
>>> run in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of
>>> these services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>
>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>
>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such
>>> as CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley
>>> Line, but they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>
>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>
>> While the characteristic of peak hours only, one way tidal flow is not
>> a universal characteristic, it is a feature of several systems, and in
>> some discussion of the systems in operation, some people do make the
>> distinction between commuter rail, with this peculiar characteristic,
>> and regional or suburban rail, to imply a more consistent service
>> pattern.  I just thought it was worth mentioning this in order to
>> avoid the potential for misunderstanding how terms are used.  For
>> example, from
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_rail_in_North_America
>
> If the trains have to run from the suburbs to the city in the morning,
> what is the disadvantage of them carrying passengers in the opposite
> direction (city to suburbs) rather than running lots of trains as ECS in
> one direction and passenger-carrying in the other?

The ones I've come across don't return to the suburbs during the day.
They are stabled near or in the city centre until needed in the evening.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 2022-01-28 15:32:28 +0000, Anna Noyd-Dryver said:

> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> "Bob" <email@domain.com> wrote in message news:st0dgv$pna$1@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>> While the characteristic of peak hours only, one way tidal flow is not a
>>> universal characteristic, it is a feature of several systems, and in some
>>> discussion of the systems in operation, some people do make the
>>> distinction between commuter rail, with this peculiar characteristic, and
>>> regional or suburban rail, to imply a more consistent service pattern. I
>>> just thought it was worth mentioning this in order to avoid the potential
>>> for misunderstanding how terms are used. For example, from
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_rail_in_North_America
>>
>> If the trains have to run from the suburbs to the city in the morning, what
>> is the disadvantage of them carrying passengers in the opposite direction
>> (city to suburbs) rather than running lots of trains as ECS in one direction
>> and passenger-carrying in the other?
>>
>
> Do they run ECS in the counter-direction? Or do they stable overnight in
> one location and during the daytime in another location?

The examples I know of do the latter, they use two sets of sidings, one
at each end, and stable overnight at the "country" end and during the
day at the "city" end, with the only ECS being from end station to
sidings.

> How much demand is there for very-early and very-late counter-flow travel,
> with nothing in between?

Generally these sorts of operations are provided by city or regional
agencies that also operate buses, and other than the peak hours tidal
flow, provision for counter-flow commuting and whatever off-peak travel
is provided for is done using buses.

An example of such a system is the West Coast Express in Vancouver,
between Mission and Vancouver along the CP line. They run 5 trains to
Vancouver in the morning, and 5 trains out to Mission in the evening,
with tran sets stabled at each end between turns. The service is run
by Translink, the Metro-Vancouver agency, and they use coach type buses
to provide parallel services along the same coridoor when trains are
not running. The limit on the use of trains is basically the
availability of paths on the CP main line that is, naturally, very busy
with freight. If they can't get paths to run actual services, there is
no chance they would get paths to run ECS.

Robin

On 28/01/2022 12:35, NY wrote:
> "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
> news:st0mqu$rp5$1@dont-email.me...
>> "Certes" <none@nowhere.net> wrote in message
>> news:st0mgg$m1f$1@dont-email.me...
>>>> 3-00/2-50 via
>>>>            Willesden Junction + Bakerloo Line
>>>>            Shepherds Bush (OSI) + Central Line
>>>>            Balham (OSI) + Northern Line
>>>>            (i.e. not changing NR/LU at a London Terminal)
>>>
>>> I never thought of Balham as a gateway to the North.
>>
>> That's Bal-ham.
>>
>> Until I looked it up, I couldn't remember whether "Bal-ham Gateway to
>> the South" was a Goons/Seller spoof
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RTWk9QIKS0 or from a genuine Telly
>> Savalas travelog(ue) of this sort
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoHVO1eSMFc.
>
> Effectively Peter Sellers in 1958 did a "pre-piss-take" of Telly
> Savalas's 1970s travelogues ;-) Or did Savalas knowingly or accidentally
> copy Sellers's style?

Knowingly i believe.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 28/01/2022 14:51, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:10:36 +0000
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>> ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
>>>>> separate from the whole.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We
>> can
>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>
>>> To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee) probably thought
>>> it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly not happening
>>
>>> SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to rebrand it
>>> 10 years down the road.
>>>
>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse kissing
>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>
>> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>
> It irritates me not because of the name so much - which no doubt will be
> shortened to the liz(zy) line pretty soon , if not by the public then certainly
> the tabloids - but because it was a clear case of Boris sucking up to HRH.
>

ITYM HM

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 28/01/2022 16:02, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 28/01/2022 14:51, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:10:36 +0000
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>>> ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no
>>>>>> meaning
>>>>>> separate from the whole.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We
>>> can
>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a
>>>>> decision
>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>
>>>> To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee)
>>>> probably thought
>>>> it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly not
>>>> happening
>>>
>>>> SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to
>>>> rebrand it
>>>> 10 years down the road.
>>>>
>>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse
>>>> kissing
>>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>>
>>> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>>> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>>
>> It irritates me not because of the name so much - which no doubt will be
>> shortened to the liz(zy) line pretty soon , if not by the public then
>> certainly
>> the tabloids - but because it was a clear case of Boris sucking up to
>> HRH.
>>
>
> ITYM HM
>
Johnson seems very keen on the monarchy and "one" UK. If he's still PM
I suspect we'll see the abolition of the Scottish and Welsh
governments,compulsory national anthems at cultural events and on
streamed and broadcast media in his manifesto at the next election.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:10:36 +0000
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>> ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
>>>>> separate from the whole.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We
>> can
>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>
>>> To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee) probably thought
>>> it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly not happening
>>
>>> SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to rebrand it
>>> 10 years down the road.
>>>
>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse kissing
>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>
>> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>
> It irritates me not because of the name so much - which no doubt will be
> shortened to the liz(zy) line pretty soon , if not by the public then certainly
> the tabloids - but because it was a clear case of Boris sucking up to HRH.
>

He wasn't sucking up to HM; he was cultivating support from right-wing Tory
members, in preparation for the planned future leadership contest. He was
using his mayoralty as a launch pad for his prime ministerial ambitions.

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:36:26 +0000
>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>> On 27/01/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse
>>>>> kissing
>>>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>>>
>>>> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>>>> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>>
>>> The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
>>> isn't. This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
>>> proportion of users.
>>
>> The other problem is that the central service which will be the most used
>> is going to be buggered up by problems on network rail either side just as
>> happens on the east london line which should never have been extended beyond its
>> previous southern termini IMO given how good interchange already was.
>>
>>
>
> With approximately half the service turning back at Paddington, there's
> scope for keeping a decent service through the core even if no trains are
> managing to run through to/from the GWML.
>

And, at the east, it has dedicated tracks to Abbey Wood.

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 28/01/2022 16:02, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 28/01/2022 14:51, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:10:36 +0000
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no
>>>>>>> meaning
>>>>>>> separate from the whole.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We
>>>> can
>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a
>>>>>> decision
>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>
>>>>> To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee)
>>>>> probably thought
>>>>> it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly not
>>>>> happening
>>>>
>>>>> SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to
>>>>> rebrand it
>>>>> 10 years down the road.
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse
>>>>> kissing
>>>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>>>
>>>> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>>>> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>>>
>>> It irritates me not because of the name so much - which no doubt will be
>>> shortened to the liz(zy) line pretty soon , if not by the public then
>>> certainly
>>> the tabloids - but because it was a clear case of Boris sucking up to
>>> HRH.
>>>
>>
>> ITYM HM
>>
> Johnson seems very keen on the monarchy and "one" UK.

He's not been very respectful to HM.

> If he's still PM
> I suspect we'll see the abolition of the Scottish and Welsh
> governments,compulsory national anthems at cultural events and on
> streamed and broadcast media in his manifesto at the next election.

No chance of either.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:36:26 +0000
>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>> On 27/01/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse
>>>>>> kissing
>>>>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>>>>> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>>>>
>>>> Yes.
>>>>
>>>> The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
>>>> isn't. This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
>>>> proportion of users.
>>>
>>> The other problem is that the central service which will be the most used
>>> is going to be buggered up by problems on network rail either side just as
>>> happens on the east london line which should never have been extended beyond its
>>> previous southern termini IMO given how good interchange already was.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> With approximately half the service turning back at Paddington, there's
>> scope for keeping a decent service through the core even if no trains are
>> managing to run through to/from the GWML.
>>
>
> And, at the east, it has dedicated tracks to Abbey Wood.
>
>

I wonder how well the track layout at Stratford will cope with reversing
there, if there is drama on the GEML?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <p2t7vgtd7ntvnmss0k067921m6fhtfduhn@4ax.com>, at 13:49:44 on
Fri, 28 Jan 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 12:56:47 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <st0iab$r5g$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:59:23 on Fri, 28 Jan
>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ssut48$ca$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:51:36 on Thu, 27 Jan 2022,
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 18:04, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>>>>>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better. We can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a decision
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>refer to it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>>>>>>>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>>>>>>>>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>><https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>>>>>>>>> 16352/>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal
>>>>>>> system, where that rail is within the zone system. Why would
>>>>>>> Crossrail be any different? I get the feeling folk are looking for
>>>>>>> problems that don’t really exist for the vast majority of users.
>>>>>>> Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of everything?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
>>>>>> but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well does it have a separate gate line to stations with which it shares
>>>>> with the conventional underground? If not, how will they know how you get
>>>>> from one NR terminus to another?
>>>>
>>>> The only changes his trip involve is GWR-EL at Reading, and EL-GA at
>>>> Liverpool St.
>>>
>>>There will be gate lines between them at Liverpool St.
>>
>>Won't the only gate line that matters be the one onto the GA platforms,
>>which are hardly likely to refuse a National Rail ticket on GA metals.
>
>What about exiting through the TfL gateline?

Why would that reject the ticket, given the person had just arrived on a
valid TfL train all the way from Paddington/Reading.
--
Roland Perry

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2022-01-28 09:48:33 +0000, NY said:
>
>> "Bob" <email@domain.com> wrote in message news:st0dgv$pna$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>
>>>> Huh?
>>>>
>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>
>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>
>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>
>>> While the characteristic of peak hours only, one way tidal flow is not
>>> a universal characteristic, it is a feature of several systems, and in
>>> some discussion of the systems in operation, some people do make the
>>> distinction between commuter rail, with this peculiar characteristic,
>>> and regional or suburban rail, to imply a more consistent service
>>> pattern. I just thought it was worth mentioning this in order to avoid
>>> the potential for misunderstanding how terms are used. For example,
>>> from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_rail_in_North_America
>>
>> If the trains have to run from the suburbs to the city in the morning,
>> what is the disadvantage of them carrying passengers in the opposite
>> direction (city to suburbs) rather than running lots of trains as ECS
>> in one direction and passenger-carrying in the other?
>
> If you would believe it, the approach is usually to have as many train
> sets as there are morning and evening services, with each one spending
> the night in a siding at the end of the line, then running one service
> to the city, where it then parks in a siding and returns to the suburb
> in the evening. Part of the reason for this is that these kinds of
> services often run over single track with significant freight use, so
> there are simply no paths for them to do anything mroe than one run in
> in the morning and one out in the evening.

That was pretty much the service pattern of the GO trains in Toronto when I
was there in the late 90s; I don’t know if they’ve changed now - it’s
difficult to find a timetable on the GOtransit site.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
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