On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:34:21 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <0hj41htighhc29luaiuk61qiu9pcai2i08@4ax.com>, at 14:23:28 on
>Sun, 20 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 13:41:46 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <3UqQJ.92077$sga6.42831@fx10.ams1>, at 12:56:31 on Sun, 20
>>>Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sut7m1$aqg$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:12:01 on Sun, 20 Feb
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> But that will be a very different election, because the public is
>>>>>>> now much more alert to broken-pledge syndrome, so won't be so easily
>>>>>>> fooled.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Johnson was already well known as a proven liar, and it seemingly made no
>>>>>> difference at all, presumably because most voters think that's true of all
>>>>>> politicians (which it is, to a degree).
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it was more a case of "he's promising something we are
>>>>> relatively unfamiliar of, so we'll give him the benefit of the doubt
>>>>> despite his track record".
>>>>>
>>>>> Otherwise known as "New Scientist syndrome": which is where everything
>>>>> they write about a subject with which you have some familiarity is
>>>>> wrong, but nevertheless doggedly believe that all the others are
>>>>> correct.
>>>>>
>>>>> My alarms bells ring when someone suggests the way my car's traction
>>>>> control copes with slippery conditions is to start off in 3rd gear, when
>>>>> the *exact opposite* is true: it starts in 1st and doesn't change up
>>>>> until much higher engine revs than it would otherwise.
>>>>>
>>>>> If they didn't know that, what else are they bluffing about?
>>>>
>>>>It was a suggestion to try, because that's how it works in some other cars.
>>>
>>>It's a method advised long ago for manually driven cars. There's no
>>>reason at all to suppose an automatic box would have the same
>>>characteristic, given that it also has millisecond wheel-slip detection
>>>and response.
>>
>>In my car, D starts in second gear. If it had an ice mode, it probably
>>would start in third gear.
>
>I have no idea why they'd design something as broken as that.
>
>>>>I apologise profusely for not knowing the details of exactly how the
>>>>transmission in your elderly Ford Mondeo derivative works.
>>>
>>>It can easily be looked up. And love the old and creaky playbook, by the
>>>way. Gets tiresome eventually. And the same innovative transmission is
>>>still being delivered on new vehicles (just a revised branding).
>>
>>The Mondeo-derivative version you have is the cheaper, simplified,
>>early version of the full-fat original that's used in proper Land
>>Rovers and Range Rovers. And, yes, of course it continues to be
>>developed. Why wouldn't it?
>
>That conflicts with the sources I have, which say the Terrain Control
>was new for the Freelander 2.

Yes, it was freshly cut-down from the current full-fat version fitted to real Land Rovers. It wasn't invented for the
Freelander.

In message <a4771hdnu7j79s69j7gmhmoj1ekfcv6c1f@4ax.com>, at 14:08:11 on
Mon, 21 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:34:21 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <0hj41htighhc29luaiuk61qiu9pcai2i08@4ax.com>, at 14:23:28 on
>>Sun, 20 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 13:41:46 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <3UqQJ.92077$sga6.42831@fx10.ams1>, at 12:56:31 on Sun, 20
>>>>Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sut7m1$aqg$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:12:01 on Sun, 20 Feb
>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But that will be a very different election, because the public is
>>>>>>>> now much more alert to broken-pledge syndrome, so won't be so easily
>>>>>>>> fooled.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Johnson was already well known as a proven liar, and it
>>>>>>>seemingly made no
>>>>>>> difference at all, presumably because most voters think that's
>>>>>>>true of all
>>>>>>> politicians (which it is, to a degree).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it was more a case of "he's promising something we are
>>>>>> relatively unfamiliar of, so we'll give him the benefit of the doubt
>>>>>> despite his track record".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Otherwise known as "New Scientist syndrome": which is where everything
>>>>>> they write about a subject with which you have some familiarity is
>>>>>> wrong, but nevertheless doggedly believe that all the others are
>>>>>> correct.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My alarms bells ring when someone suggests the way my car's traction
>>>>>> control copes with slippery conditions is to start off in 3rd gear, when
>>>>>> the *exact opposite* is true: it starts in 1st and doesn't change up
>>>>>> until much higher engine revs than it would otherwise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If they didn't know that, what else are they bluffing about?
>>>>>
>>>>>It was a suggestion to try, because that's how it works in some other cars.
>>>>
>>>>It's a method advised long ago for manually driven cars. There's no
>>>>reason at all to suppose an automatic box would have the same
>>>>characteristic, given that it also has millisecond wheel-slip detection
>>>>and response.
>>>
>>>In my car, D starts in second gear. If it had an ice mode, it probably
>>>would start in third gear.
>>
>>I have no idea why they'd design something as broken as that.
>>
>>>>>I apologise profusely for not knowing the details of exactly how the
>>>>>transmission in your elderly Ford Mondeo derivative works.
>>>>
>>>>It can easily be looked up. And love the old and creaky playbook, by the
>>>>way. Gets tiresome eventually. And the same innovative transmission is
>>>>still being delivered on new vehicles (just a revised branding).
>>>
>>>The Mondeo-derivative version you have is the cheaper, simplified,
>>>early version of the full-fat original that's used in proper Land
>>>Rovers and Range Rovers. And, yes, of course it continues to be
>>>developed. Why wouldn't it?
>>
>>That conflicts with the sources I have, which say the Terrain Control
>>was new for the Freelander 2.
>
>Yes, it was freshly cut-down from the current full-fat version fitted
>to real Land Rovers. It wasn't invented for the Freelander.

Which year's Range Rover first had the terrain control and HDC fitted?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <a4771hdnu7j79s69j7gmhmoj1ekfcv6c1f@4ax.com>, at 14:08:11 on
> Mon, 21 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:34:21 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <0hj41htighhc29luaiuk61qiu9pcai2i08@4ax.com>, at 14:23:28 on
>>> Sun, 20 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 13:41:46 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <3UqQJ.92077$sga6.42831@fx10.ams1>, at 12:56:31 on Sun, 20
>>>>> Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sut7m1$aqg$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:12:01 on Sun, 20 Feb
>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But that will be a very different election, because the public is
>>>>>>>>> now much more alert to broken-pledge syndrome, so won't be so easily
>>>>>>>>> fooled.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Johnson was already well known as a proven liar, and it
>>>>>>>> seemingly made no
>>>>>>>> difference at all, presumably because most voters think that's
>>>>>>>> true of all
>>>>>>>> politicians (which it is, to a degree).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think it was more a case of "he's promising something we are
>>>>>>> relatively unfamiliar of, so we'll give him the benefit of the doubt
>>>>>>> despite his track record".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Otherwise known as "New Scientist syndrome": which is where everything
>>>>>>> they write about a subject with which you have some familiarity is
>>>>>>> wrong, but nevertheless doggedly believe that all the others are
>>>>>>> correct.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My alarms bells ring when someone suggests the way my car's traction
>>>>>>> control copes with slippery conditions is to start off in 3rd gear, when
>>>>>>> the *exact opposite* is true: it starts in 1st and doesn't change up
>>>>>>> until much higher engine revs than it would otherwise.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If they didn't know that, what else are they bluffing about?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was a suggestion to try, because that's how it works in some other cars.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a method advised long ago for manually driven cars. There's no
>>>>> reason at all to suppose an automatic box would have the same
>>>>> characteristic, given that it also has millisecond wheel-slip detection
>>>>> and response.
>>>>
>>>> In my car, D starts in second gear. If it had an ice mode, it probably
>>>> would start in third gear.
>>>
>>> I have no idea why they'd design something as broken as that.
>>>
>>>>>> I apologise profusely for not knowing the details of exactly how the
>>>>>> transmission in your elderly Ford Mondeo derivative works.
>>>>>
>>>>> It can easily be looked up. And love the old and creaky playbook, by the
>>>>> way. Gets tiresome eventually. And the same innovative transmission is
>>>>> still being delivered on new vehicles (just a revised branding).
>>>>
>>>> The Mondeo-derivative version you have is the cheaper, simplified,
>>>> early version of the full-fat original that's used in proper Land
>>>> Rovers and Range Rovers. And, yes, of course it continues to be
>>>> developed. Why wouldn't it?
>>>
>>> That conflicts with the sources I have, which say the Terrain Control
>>> was new for the Freelander 2.
>>
>> Yes, it was freshly cut-down from the current full-fat version fitted
>> to real Land Rovers. It wasn't invented for the Freelander.
>
> Which year's Range Rover first had the terrain control and HDC fitted?

<https://www.landrover.co.uk/explore-land-rover/one-life/technology/technology-guide-terrain-response.html>

In message <sv0egn$if7$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:27:03 on Mon, 21 Feb
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <a4771hdnu7j79s69j7gmhmoj1ekfcv6c1f@4ax.com>, at 14:08:11 on
>> Mon, 21 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:34:21 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <0hj41htighhc29luaiuk61qiu9pcai2i08@4ax.com>, at 14:23:28 on
>>>> Sun, 20 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 13:41:46 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>><roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <3UqQJ.92077$sga6.42831@fx10.ams1>, at 12:56:31 on Sun, 20
>>>>>> Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <sut7m1$aqg$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:12:01 on Sun, 20 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But that will be a very different election, because the public is
>>>>>>>>>> now much more alert to broken-pledge syndrome, so won't be so easily
>>>>>>>>>> fooled.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Johnson was already well known as a proven liar, and it
>>>>>>>>> seemingly made no
>>>>>>>>> difference at all, presumably because most voters think that's
>>>>>>>>> true of all
>>>>>>>>> politicians (which it is, to a degree).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think it was more a case of "he's promising something we are
>>>>>>>> relatively unfamiliar of, so we'll give him the benefit of the doubt
>>>>>>>> despite his track record".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Otherwise known as "New Scientist syndrome": which is where everything
>>>>>>>> they write about a subject with which you have some familiarity is
>>>>>>>> wrong, but nevertheless doggedly believe that all the others are
>>>>>>>> correct.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My alarms bells ring when someone suggests the way my car's traction
>>>>>>>> control copes with slippery conditions is to start off in 3rd
>>>>>>>>gear, when
>>>>>>>> the *exact opposite* is true: it starts in 1st and doesn't change up
>>>>>>>> until much higher engine revs than it would otherwise.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If they didn't know that, what else are they bluffing about?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was a suggestion to try, because that's how it works in some
>>>>>>>other cars.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's a method advised long ago for manually driven cars. There's no
>>>>>> reason at all to suppose an automatic box would have the same
>>>>>> characteristic, given that it also has millisecond wheel-slip detection
>>>>>> and response.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my car, D starts in second gear. If it had an ice mode, it probably
>>>>> would start in third gear.
>>>>
>>>> I have no idea why they'd design something as broken as that.
>>>>
>>>>>>> I apologise profusely for not knowing the details of exactly how the
>>>>>>> transmission in your elderly Ford Mondeo derivative works.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It can easily be looked up. And love the old and creaky playbook, by the
>>>>>> way. Gets tiresome eventually. And the same innovative transmission is
>>>>>> still being delivered on new vehicles (just a revised branding).
>>>>>
>>>>> The Mondeo-derivative version you have is the cheaper, simplified,
>>>>> early version of the full-fat original that's used in proper Land
>>>>> Rovers and Range Rovers. And, yes, of course it continues to be
>>>>> developed. Why wouldn't it?
>>>>
>>>> That conflicts with the sources I have, which say the Terrain Control
>>>> was new for the Freelander 2.
>>>
>>> Yes, it was freshly cut-down from the current full-fat version fitted
>>> to real Land Rovers. It wasn't invented for the Freelander.
>>
>> Which year's Range Rover first had the terrain control and HDC fitted?
>
><https://www.landrover.co.uk/explore-land-rover/one-life/technology/tech
>nology-guide-terrain-response.html>

Terrain control from 2005, whereas maybe the Freelander had HDC from
1997?

Freelander 2 launched in 2006.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sv0egn$if7$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:27:03 on Mon, 21 Feb
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <a4771hdnu7j79s69j7gmhmoj1ekfcv6c1f@4ax.com>, at 14:08:11 on
>>> Mon, 21 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:34:21 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <0hj41htighhc29luaiuk61qiu9pcai2i08@4ax.com>, at 14:23:28 on
>>>>> Sun, 20 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 13:41:46 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <3UqQJ.92077$sga6.42831@fx10.ams1>, at 12:56:31 on Sun, 20
>>>>>>> Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <sut7m1$aqg$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:12:01 on Sun, 20 Feb
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But that will be a very different election, because the public is
>>>>>>>>>>> now much more alert to broken-pledge syndrome, so won't be so easily
>>>>>>>>>>> fooled.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Johnson was already well known as a proven liar, and it
>>>>>>>>>> seemingly made no
>>>>>>>>>> difference at all, presumably because most voters think that's
>>>>>>>>>> true of all
>>>>>>>>>> politicians (which it is, to a degree).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think it was more a case of "he's promising something we are
>>>>>>>>> relatively unfamiliar of, so we'll give him the benefit of the doubt
>>>>>>>>> despite his track record".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Otherwise known as "New Scientist syndrome": which is where everything
>>>>>>>>> they write about a subject with which you have some familiarity is
>>>>>>>>> wrong, but nevertheless doggedly believe that all the others are
>>>>>>>>> correct.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My alarms bells ring when someone suggests the way my car's traction
>>>>>>>>> control copes with slippery conditions is to start off in 3rd
>>>>>>>>> gear, when
>>>>>>>>> the *exact opposite* is true: it starts in 1st and doesn't change up
>>>>>>>>> until much higher engine revs than it would otherwise.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If they didn't know that, what else are they bluffing about?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It was a suggestion to try, because that's how it works in some
>>>>>>>> other cars.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's a method advised long ago for manually driven cars. There's no
>>>>>>> reason at all to suppose an automatic box would have the same
>>>>>>> characteristic, given that it also has millisecond wheel-slip detection
>>>>>>> and response.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my car, D starts in second gear. If it had an ice mode, it probably
>>>>>> would start in third gear.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no idea why they'd design something as broken as that.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I apologise profusely for not knowing the details of exactly how the
>>>>>>>> transmission in your elderly Ford Mondeo derivative works.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It can easily be looked up. And love the old and creaky playbook, by the
>>>>>>> way. Gets tiresome eventually. And the same innovative transmission is
>>>>>>> still being delivered on new vehicles (just a revised branding).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Mondeo-derivative version you have is the cheaper, simplified,
>>>>>> early version of the full-fat original that's used in proper Land
>>>>>> Rovers and Range Rovers. And, yes, of course it continues to be
>>>>>> developed. Why wouldn't it?
>>>>>
>>>>> That conflicts with the sources I have, which say the Terrain Control
>>>>> was new for the Freelander 2.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it was freshly cut-down from the current full-fat version fitted
>>>> to real Land Rovers. It wasn't invented for the Freelander.
>>>
>>> Which year's Range Rover first had the terrain control and HDC fitted?
>>
>> <https://www.landrover.co.uk/explore-land-rover/one-life/technology/tech
>> nology-guide-terrain-response.html>
>
> Terrain control from 2005, whereas maybe the Freelander had HDC from
> 1997?
>
> Freelander 2 launched in 2006.

I know, a year after the Disco got Terrain Response.

Hill Descent Control was the poor man's cheap software substitute for the
mechanical low range gears as fitted to real Land Rovers.

In message <sv0gv0$70s$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:08:48 on Mon, 21 Feb
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Which year's Range Rover first had the terrain control and HDC fitted?
>>>
>>> <https://www.landrover.co.uk/explore-land-rover/one-life/technology/tech
>>> nology-guide-terrain-response.html>
>>
>> Terrain control from 2005, whereas maybe the Freelander had HDC from
>> 1997?
>>
>> Freelander 2 launched in 2006.
>
>I know, a year after the Disco got Terrain Response.

So it's the same system?

>Hill Descent Control was the software substitute for the mechanical low
>range gears

Sounds perfect. Even when I had low range on my Land Rover, I hardly
ever used it. Only when towing, iirc.
--
Roland Perry

On 2022-02-20 16:14:47 +0000, Sam Wilson said:

> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 20/02/2022 10:20, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sus5al$fgn$10@dont-email.me>, at 01:25:41 on Sun, 20 Feb
>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>> Does your tried and tested newsreader quote and preserve these 25
>>>>> space-separated characters:
>>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>>> ¶
>>>>
>>>> This always used to be a symbol used in the locomotive allocation
>>>> books for
>>>> spotters! I think it meant dual braked, perhaps?
>>>>
>>>> I don't think I've seen it used in any other context.
>>>
>>> It was a "Pointless" answer on a popular [M'lud] teatime quiz show,
>>> about three years ago.
>>>
>>> Quite pleased I knew it (while I have no ambition to go on the show; but
>>> like University Challenge, from the less-stressful situation of my sofa,
>>> I generally score at least as well as the winning contestants).
>>>
>>> In my first year at University, my College had won University Challenge
>>> the previous season. Normally populated by second-years (first years not
>>> yet engaged with it, third years not wanting the distraction from their
>>> Finals). So seeing members of the winning team (by then third years)
>>> every day, was a bit surreal.
>>
>> According to a 1960s era Ian Allan combine it meant "trains fitted with
>> air-brake equipment" In other words, dual-braked.
>
> I’ve always known it as “paragraph” - it was used in printings of the King
> James Bible, which started each verse on a new line, as showing where a
> paragraph might start (IIUC the original languages didn’t use paragraphs,
> so it was always a bit speculative, but then they didn’t have other
> punctuation either).

Almost all writing conventions we think of as normal didn't really
become fixed until the advent of the printing press. Things like the
distinction between upper and lower case letters, and the way in which
they should be used, the use of and meaning of punctuation marks, the
concept of standardised spelling, and the concept of a paragrpah (along
with conventions for formatting them) all date from the late medival or
early modern period. Before that time writing was much more ad-hoc,
with individual scribes simply writing words phonetically and where
they might make an effort to distinguish things like sentences from one
another, it was not in a fixed or standardised way.

Both the name "capital letter" and the concept of indenting paragraphs
derive from how illuminated manuscripts were produced before the
printing press. Each significant block of text would begin with the
first letter of the first word being drawn in with a large and ornately
decorated style. As this marked the top or head of the block of text,
this letter was the "capital", from latin "caput" meaning head. It is
from this that some other European languages use a cognate of "capital"
for "chapter". When a scribe was writing the manuscript, he would omit
the first letter and leave a space for the capital to be drawn in after
the rest of the page was written. This gave rise to the convention of
indenting the first line of a paragraph, even when the adoption of the
printing press and the decline of illuminated capitals went away.

Robin

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sv0gv0$70s$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:08:48 on Mon, 21 Feb
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Which year's Range Rover first had the terrain control and HDC fitted?
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.landrover.co.uk/explore-land-rover/one-life/technology/tech
>>>> nology-guide-terrain-response.html>
>>>
>>> Terrain control from 2005, whereas maybe the Freelander had HDC from
>>> 1997?
>>>
>>> Freelander 2 launched in 2006.
>>
>> I know, a year after the Disco got Terrain Response.
>
> So it's the same system?

I think the FL version is a simplified version of the Disco system. For one
thing, it has no locking differentials.

>
>> Hill Descent Control was the software substitute for the mechanical low
>> range gears
>
> Sounds perfect. Even when I had low range on my Land Rover, I hardly
> ever used it. Only when towing, iirc.

It's probably not greatly needed in Fenland.

In message <sv2ean$ua7$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:07 on Tue, 22 Feb
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:

>Almost all writing conventions we think of as normal didn't really
>become fixed until the advent of the printing press. Things like the
>distinction between upper and lower case letters

I wonder how many people realise what that refers to?

A bit like youngsters seeing a 3.5" floppy disc for the first time, and
saying 'someone 3D printed the "Save" icon'.

A printer's tray with the lead lettering in had two important
characteristics.

Firstly the size of each compartment within the tray reflected the
average frequency with which the letters were required, and secondly
there were two of them for each size/style of font: one with capitals
and one not. The upper/lower of the two trays.

It even permeated to the expression "typecase", which was the pair of
such drawers in a rack.

An accomplished typesetter could pull the letters required, in much the
same way as "touch typing", without needing to check them on the first
pass.

People putting used type back into the wrong compartments was a hanging
offence!
--
Roland Perry

In message <sv2fi3$786$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:07 on Tue, 22 Feb
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>> Hill Descent Control was the software substitute for the mechanical low
>>> range gears
>>
>> Sounds perfect. Even when I had low range on my Land Rover, I hardly
>> ever used it. Only when towing, iirc.
>
>It's probably not greatly needed in Fenland.

I was living on the edge of the Pennines when I had my classic Land
Rover. But yes, I have yet to find any hills that would require the F2's
HDC. The most troublesome hill the last several years was the one
alongside the lower reaches of the Great Orme tramway. But that's
*up*hill.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <suvqhj$u1h$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:46:11 on Mon, 21 Feb
> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <suvg6e$q4v$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:49:34 on Mon, 21 Feb
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> I've also been in a couple of entertainment venues in London where
>>>>> plan B was to use the WiFi from the hotel next door. The worst places
>>>>> for access are large football grounds during a game. Even where WiFi
>>>>> is installed, the throughput tends to zero much of the time with
>>>>> mobile data going the same way.
>>>>
>>>> 25000 people all trying to use the same cell at the same time, who
>>>> would have expected that.
>>>
>>> Except football stadiums (stadia?), along with Oxford St etc,
>>> were one of the first places that microcells were deployed.
>>>
>>> You'd also hope da-management would provide a range of wifi
>>> points aligned with the various networks that attendees would
>>> have credentials for.
>>
>> Stadium WiFi, and indeed any location with densely packed clients, is very
>> challenging and, at least initially, very very expensive. The tech has
>> advanced but it used to be that you needed very large numbers of low power
>> access points. One case study I saw showed that the number of APs had to
>> be approximately tripled after initial experiments. Another had the APs
>> fixed under the floor of the seating inside wireless absorbing enclosures
>> so the signal was directed upwards.
>
> The Premier League has an annual income of more than 2bn, I'm sure the
> can afford it. And the organisation(s) I was working for around the
> Millennium invented mass-wifi at event venues - to avoid having to plumb
> Cat5 to every seat, which really was a huge PITA.

ISTR the early installations I saw reports of, with what would now be
low-spec WAPs, had one WAP per 10 seats or fewer, so it was still a huge
PITA to get the wiring and switching installed.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sv0gv0$70s$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:08:48 on Mon, 21 Feb
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Which year's Range Rover first had the terrain control and HDC fitted?
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.landrover.co.uk/explore-land-rover/one-life/technology/tech
>>>>> nology-guide-terrain-response.html>
>>>>
>>>> Terrain control from 2005, whereas maybe the Freelander had HDC from
>>>> 1997?
>>>>
>>>> Freelander 2 launched in 2006.
>>>
>>> I know, a year after the Disco got Terrain Response.
>>
>> So it's the same system?
>
> I think the FL version is a simplified version of the Disco system. For one
> thing, it has no locking differentials.
>
>>
>>> Hill Descent Control was the software substitute for the mechanical low
>>> range gears
>>
>> Sounds perfect. Even when I had low range on my Land Rover, I hardly
>> ever used it. Only when towing, iirc.
>
> It's probably not greatly needed in Fenland.

In my very limited experience of that area, the steepest hills are up from
the fields to the river bank level.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sv0gv0$70s$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:08:48 on Mon, 21 Feb
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Which year's Range Rover first had the terrain control and HDC fitted?
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.landrover.co.uk/explore-land-rover/one-life/technology/tech
>>>>> nology-guide-terrain-response.html>
>>>>
>>>> Terrain control from 2005, whereas maybe the Freelander had HDC from
>>>> 1997?
>>>>
>>>> Freelander 2 launched in 2006.
>>>
>>> I know, a year after the Disco got Terrain Response.
>>
>> So it's the same system?
>
> I think the FL version is a simplified version of the Disco system. For one
> thing, it has no locking differentials.
>
>>
>>> Hill Descent Control was the software substitute for the mechanical low
>>> range gears
>>
>> Sounds perfect. Even when I had low range on my Land Rover, I hardly
>> ever used it. Only when towing, iirc.
>
> It's probably not greatly needed in Fenland.

In my very limited experience of that area, the steepest hills are up from
the fields to the river bank level.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <sv2rl4$trf$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:23:32 on Tue, 22 Feb
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <suvqhj$u1h$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:46:11 on Mon, 21 Feb
>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <suvg6e$q4v$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:49:34 on Mon, 21 Feb
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> I've also been in a couple of entertainment venues in London where
>>>>>> plan B was to use the WiFi from the hotel next door. The worst places
>>>>>> for access are large football grounds during a game. Even where WiFi
>>>>>> is installed, the throughput tends to zero much of the time with
>>>>>> mobile data going the same way.
>>>>>
>>>>> 25000 people all trying to use the same cell at the same time, who
>>>>> would have expected that.
>>>>
>>>> Except football stadiums (stadia?), along with Oxford St etc,
>>>> were one of the first places that microcells were deployed.
>>>>
>>>> You'd also hope da-management would provide a range of wifi
>>>> points aligned with the various networks that attendees would
>>>> have credentials for.
>>>
>>> Stadium WiFi, and indeed any location with densely packed clients, is very
>>> challenging and, at least initially, very very expensive. The tech has
>>> advanced but it used to be that you needed very large numbers of low power
>>> access points. One case study I saw showed that the number of APs had to
>>> be approximately tripled after initial experiments. Another had the APs
>>> fixed under the floor of the seating inside wireless absorbing enclosures
>>> so the signal was directed upwards.
>>
>> The Premier League has an annual income of more than 2bn, I'm sure the
>> can afford it. And the organisation(s) I was working for around the
>> Millennium invented mass-wifi at event venues - to avoid having to plumb
>> Cat5 to every seat, which really was a huge PITA.
>
>ISTR the early installations I saw reports of, with what would now be
>low-spec WAPs, had one WAP per 10 seats or fewer, so it was still a huge
>PITA to get the wiring and switching installed.

Is that one per 10 seats, period; or one per ten seats with someone sat
in them expecting to get connectivity?
--
Roland Perry

In message <sv2rl5$trf$2@dont-email.me>, at 14:23:33 on Tue, 22 Feb
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sv0gv0$70s$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:08:48 on Mon, 21 Feb
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Which year's Range Rover first had the terrain control and HDC fitted?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.landrover.co.uk/explore-land-rover/one-life/technology/tech
>>>>>> nology-guide-terrain-response.html>
>>>>>
>>>>> Terrain control from 2005, whereas maybe the Freelander had HDC from
>>>>> 1997?
>>>>>
>>>>> Freelander 2 launched in 2006.
>>>>
>>>> I know, a year after the Disco got Terrain Response.
>>>
>>> So it's the same system?
>>
>> I think the FL version is a simplified version of the Disco system. For one
>> thing, it has no locking differentials.
>>
>>>> Hill Descent Control was the software substitute for the mechanical low
>>>> range gears
>>>
>>> Sounds perfect. Even when I had low range on my Land Rover, I hardly
>>> ever used it. Only when towing, iirc.
>>
>> It's probably not greatly needed in Fenland.
>
>In my very limited experience of that area, the steepest hills are up from
>the fields to the river bank level.

There are plenty of river banks at about 45 degrees for up to twenty
feet or more, but that's very ambitious to climb at all. And a bit daft
if not driving a mowing machine or something that actually *needs*
access to the top.

One road I drive on next to the river, there's two sets of left, right,
left bends, and earlier this year a 4x4 came to grief by understeering
so badly that his nearside wheels went up the bank about three feet and
it flipped over.

I can't readily find the footage taken as I drove past soon after (the
driver looked OK), but the rut is still visible here a week or two
later: http://www.perry.co.uk/images/oh-flip.jpg (the flipper was going
towards me in that view).

Tractors go in and out of the fields on the left without too much drama,
but I wouldn't really want to (or have any need to) drive it myself.

Having said that, the farm track at 9 o'clock is a short cut to
Prickwillow, and is seriously rutted/potholed and so on. I'd happily
drive along it at about 25mph with the spray going over the roof. Not
sure a "family saloon" would make it at all.

ps I saw this on Facebook earlier, thought it relevant to the thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0BP2NLe4Ww

My vehicle can officially wade up to 500mm, which is around about the
top of the alloy bit of the alloy wheels. There's people posted videos
with Classic Landrovers up to the top of the bonnet across Welney.

Apparently there's an air vent for the Haldex which could be the
Achilles' heel, rather than either the air intake for the engine
(900mm), or the carpets getting wet (450mm). It's possible they are
being conservative and only expecting the door seals to be good for
50mm, I suppose.

The water in that video is about 350mm I reckon.

pps The van at 5 mins in is one of those I keep talking about as only
just bashing the Ely underpass. I think the DPD one earlier would
fit.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sv2rl4$trf$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:23:32 on Tue, 22 Feb
> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <suvqhj$u1h$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:46:11 on Mon, 21 Feb
>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <suvg6e$q4v$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:49:34 on Mon, 21 Feb
>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've also been in a couple of entertainment venues in London where
>>>>>>> plan B was to use the WiFi from the hotel next door. The worst places
>>>>>>> for access are large football grounds during a game. Even where WiFi
>>>>>>> is installed, the throughput tends to zero much of the time with
>>>>>>> mobile data going the same way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 25000 people all trying to use the same cell at the same time, who
>>>>>> would have expected that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Except football stadiums (stadia?), along with Oxford St etc,
>>>>> were one of the first places that microcells were deployed.
>>>>>
>>>>> You'd also hope da-management would provide a range of wifi
>>>>> points aligned with the various networks that attendees would
>>>>> have credentials for.
>>>>
>>>> Stadium WiFi, and indeed any location with densely packed clients, is very
>>>> challenging and, at least initially, very very expensive. The tech has
>>>> advanced but it used to be that you needed very large numbers of low power
>>>> access points. One case study I saw showed that the number of APs had to
>>>> be approximately tripled after initial experiments. Another had the APs
>>>> fixed under the floor of the seating inside wireless absorbing enclosures
>>>> so the signal was directed upwards.
>>>
>>> The Premier League has an annual income of more than 2bn, I'm sure the
>>> can afford it. And the organisation(s) I was working for around the
>>> Millennium invented mass-wifi at event venues - to avoid having to plumb
>>> Cat5 to every seat, which really was a huge PITA.
>>
>> ISTR the early installations I saw reports of, with what would now be
>> low-spec WAPs, had one WAP per 10 seats or fewer, so it was still a huge
>> PITA to get the wiring and switching installed.
>
> Is that one per 10 seats, period; or one per ten seats with someone sat
> in them expecting to get connectivity?

I don’t remember. It was pretty dense, though.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sv2ean$ua7$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:07 on Tue, 22 Feb
> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>
>> Almost all writing conventions we think of as normal didn't really
>> become fixed until the advent of the printing press. Things like the
>> distinction between upper and lower case letters
>
> I wonder how many people realise what that refers to?
>

> A printer's tray with the lead lettering in had two important
> characteristics.
>
Though in larger printing establishments and newspapers the job was done by
people known as compositors rather than printers . My late brother in law
was one, apprenticeship done on a small city newspaper then moved to Fleet
Street where that aspect of his career came to an end due to the conflict
between his short temper and union officials bullshit in the printing
chapels lead him to becoming blacklisted.
ob Rail he then became a carriage shunter at Euston for a couple of
years, BR took him straight off the street and with only minimal experience
and training he was soon waving experienced footplate staff back towards
the buffer stops from the end vestibule door holding appropriately an old
newspaper so his arm movement could be seen which I found a bit
incredulous. He gave it up as he found lifting couplings hardwork and on
some occasions too close to the DC lines still at the time 4th rail
,conductor rails for comfort.
He the became a self employed printer but your word processors etc killed
that market so ran an antique bookshop in Brussels instead.

GH

In message <j7kuocF7dlnU1@mid.individual.net>, at 20:18:20 on Tue, 22
Feb 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sv2ean$ua7$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:07 on Tue, 22 Feb
>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>
>>> Almost all writing conventions we think of as normal didn't really
>>> become fixed until the advent of the printing press. Things like the
>>> distinction between upper and lower case letters
>>
>> I wonder how many people realise what that refers to?
>
>> A printer's tray with the lead lettering in had two important
>> characteristics.
>>
>Though in larger printing establishments and newspapers the job was done by
>people known as compositors rather than printers .

I'd expect newspapers etc to be using something a bit more sophisticated
than manual type, whatever the job title was.

>My late brother in law
....
>He the became a self employed printer but your word processors etc killed
>that market so ran an antique bookshop in Brussels instead.

The things which killed letterpress printing were offset litho and
photo-typesetting. Although things like the IBM Selectric Composer
were available as a transitional technology for enthusiastic amateurs to
produce their masters.

I don't think personal WPs killed off anything in the printing industry
- if anything the reverse; because you can't realistically produce a
couple of hundred copies of a Parish Magazine on a 24-pin printer, but
without WP'sfor people to draft it on, you probably wouldn't even
consider having a Parish Magazine.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <j7kuocF7dlnU1@mid.individual.net>, at 20:18:20 on Tue, 22
> Feb 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sv2ean$ua7$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:07 on Tue, 22 Feb
>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Almost all writing conventions we think of as normal didn't really
>>>> become fixed until the advent of the printing press. Things like the
>>>> distinction between upper and lower case letters
>>>
>>> I wonder how many people realise what that refers to?
>>
>>> A printer's tray with the lead lettering in had two important
>>> characteristics.
>>>
>> Though in larger printing establishments and newspapers the job was done by
>> people known as compositors rather than printers .
>
> I'd expect newspapers etc to be using something a bit more sophisticated
> than manual type, whatever the job title was.
>
>> My late brother in law
> ...
>> He the became a self employed printer but your word processors etc killed
>> that market so ran an antique bookshop in Brussels instead.
>
> The things which killed letterpress printing were offset litho and
> photo-typesetting. Although things like the IBM Selectric Composer
> were available as a transitional technology for enthusiastic amateurs to
> produce their masters.
>
> I don't think personal WPs killed off anything in the printing industry
> - if anything the reverse; because you can't realistically produce a
> couple of hundred copies of a Parish Magazine on a 24-pin printer, but
> without WP'sfor people to draft it on, you probably wouldn't even
> consider having a Parish Magazine.

!!?? You don’t think Parish Magazines existed in the typewriter+duplicator
era, or the literal cut and paste and photocopier era?

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Am 24.02.2022 um 17:23 schrieb Sam Wilson:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <j7kuocF7dlnU1@mid.individual.net>, at 20:18:20 on Tue, 22
>> Feb 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sv2ean$ua7$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:07 on Tue, 22 Feb
>>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Almost all writing conventions we think of as normal didn't really
>>>>> become fixed until the advent of the printing press. Things like the
>>>>> distinction between upper and lower case letters
>>>>
>>>> I wonder how many people realise what that refers to?
>>>
>>>> A printer's tray with the lead lettering in had two important
>>>> characteristics.
>>>>
>>> Though in larger printing establishments and newspapers the job was done by
>>> people known as compositors rather than printers .
>>
>> I'd expect newspapers etc to be using something a bit more sophisticated
>> than manual type, whatever the job title was.
>>
>>> My late brother in law
>> ...
>>> He the became a self employed printer but your word processors etc killed
>>> that market so ran an antique bookshop in Brussels instead.
>>
>> The things which killed letterpress printing were offset litho and
>> photo-typesetting. Although things like the IBM Selectric Composer
>> were available as a transitional technology for enthusiastic amateurs to
>> produce their masters.
>>
>> I don't think personal WPs killed off anything in the printing industry
>> - if anything the reverse; because you can't realistically produce a
>> couple of hundred copies of a Parish Magazine on a 24-pin printer, but
>> without WP'sfor people to draft it on, you probably wouldn't even
>> consider having a Parish Magazine.
>
> !!?? You don’t think Parish Magazines existed in the typewriter+duplicator
> era, or the literal cut and paste and photocopier era?

I can assure you, they (typewriter + duplicator) even existed in
cold-war east Germany, when producing them had the additional
complication of being only semi-legal.

In message <sv8bed$1uj$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:23:41 on Thu, 24 Feb
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <j7kuocF7dlnU1@mid.individual.net>, at 20:18:20 on Tue, 22
>> Feb 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sv2ean$ua7$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:07 on Tue, 22 Feb
>>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Almost all writing conventions we think of as normal didn't really
>>>>> become fixed until the advent of the printing press. Things like the
>>>>> distinction between upper and lower case letters
>>>>
>>>> I wonder how many people realise what that refers to?
>>>
>>>> A printer's tray with the lead lettering in had two important
>>>> characteristics.
>>>>
>>> Though in larger printing establishments and newspapers the job was done by
>>> people known as compositors rather than printers .
>>
>> I'd expect newspapers etc to be using something a bit more sophisticated
>> than manual type, whatever the job title was.
>>
>>> My late brother in law
>> ...
>>> He the became a self employed printer but your word processors etc killed
>>> that market so ran an antique bookshop in Brussels instead.
>>
>> The things which killed letterpress printing were offset litho and
>> photo-typesetting. Although things like the IBM Selectric Composer
>> were available as a transitional technology for enthusiastic amateurs to
>> produce their masters.
>>
>> I don't think personal WPs killed off anything in the printing industry
>> - if anything the reverse; because you can't realistically produce a
>> couple of hundred copies of a Parish Magazine on a 24-pin printer, but
>> without WP'sfor people to draft it on, you probably wouldn't even
>> consider having a Parish Magazine.
>
>!!?? You don’t think Parish Magazines existed in the typewriter+duplicator
>era, or the literal cut and paste and photocopier era?

They might have done, but I don't think they provided much (if any)
business for professional printing businesses.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sv8bed$1uj$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:23:41 on Thu, 24 Feb
> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <j7kuocF7dlnU1@mid.individual.net>, at 20:18:20 on Tue, 22
>>> Feb 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sv2ean$ua7$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:07 on Tue, 22 Feb
>>>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Almost all writing conventions we think of as normal didn't really
>>>>>> become fixed until the advent of the printing press. Things like the
>>>>>> distinction between upper and lower case letters
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder how many people realise what that refers to?
>>>>
>>>>> A printer's tray with the lead lettering in had two important
>>>>> characteristics.
>>>>>
>>>> Though in larger printing establishments and newspapers the job was done by
>>>> people known as compositors rather than printers .
>>>
>>> I'd expect newspapers etc to be using something a bit more sophisticated
>>> than manual type, whatever the job title was.
>>>
>>>> My late brother in law
>>> ...
>>>> He the became a self employed printer but your word processors etc killed
>>>> that market so ran an antique bookshop in Brussels instead.
>>>
>>> The things which killed letterpress printing were offset litho and
>>> photo-typesetting. Although things like the IBM Selectric Composer
>>> were available as a transitional technology for enthusiastic amateurs to
>>> produce their masters.
>>>
>>> I don't think personal WPs killed off anything in the printing industry
>>> - if anything the reverse; because you can't realistically produce a
>>> couple of hundred copies of a Parish Magazine on a 24-pin printer, but
>>> without WP'sfor people to draft it on, you probably wouldn't even
>>> consider having a Parish Magazine.
>>
>> !!?? You don’t think Parish Magazines existed in the typewriter+duplicator
>> era, or the literal cut and paste and photocopier era?
>
> They might have done, but I don't think they provided much (if any)
> business for professional printing businesses.

But your last clause, “… without WP'sfor people to draft it on, you
probably wouldn't even consider having a Parish Magazine”, is just
nonsense.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
> Am 24.02.2022 um 17:23 schrieb Sam Wilson:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <j7kuocF7dlnU1@mid.individual.net>, at 20:18:20 on Tue, 22
>>> Feb 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sv2ean$ua7$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:07 on Tue, 22 Feb
>>>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Almost all writing conventions we think of as normal didn't really
>>>>>> become fixed until the advent of the printing press. Things like the
>>>>>> distinction between upper and lower case letters
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder how many people realise what that refers to?
>>>>
>>>>> A printer's tray with the lead lettering in had two important
>>>>> characteristics.
>>>>>
>>>> Though in larger printing establishments and newspapers the job was done by
>>>> people known as compositors rather than printers .
>>>
>>> I'd expect newspapers etc to be using something a bit more sophisticated
>>> than manual type, whatever the job title was.
>>>
>>>> My late brother in law
>>> ...
>>>> He the became a self employed printer but your word processors etc killed
>>>> that market so ran an antique bookshop in Brussels instead.
>>>
>>> The things which killed letterpress printing were offset litho and
>>> photo-typesetting. Although things like the IBM Selectric Composer
>>> were available as a transitional technology for enthusiastic amateurs to
>>> produce their masters.
>>>
>>> I don't think personal WPs killed off anything in the printing industry
>>> - if anything the reverse; because you can't realistically produce a
>>> couple of hundred copies of a Parish Magazine on a 24-pin printer, but
>>> without WP'sfor people to draft it on, you probably wouldn't even
>>> consider having a Parish Magazine.
>>
>> !!?? You don’t think Parish Magazines existed in the typewriter+duplicator
>> era, or the literal cut and paste and photocopier era?
>
> I can assure you, they (typewriter + duplicator) even existed in
> cold-war east Germany, when producing them had the additional
> complication of being only semi-legal.

Well, quite, though I don’t think many Parish Magazines in this country
would have attracted the notice of the authorities in that particular way!

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 24/02/2022 16:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>> !!??  You don’t think Parish Magazines existed in the
>> typewriter+duplicator
>> era, or the literal cut and paste and photocopier era?
>
> They might have done, but I don't think they provided much (if any)
> business for professional printing businesses.

Our Parish Magazine, and many other local publications, was printed by a
commecial printer. His office is now a private residence, but I can
remember being lifted up by my father to peer through the window into
the press room to watch the machines at work. Needlessa to say, the
house is now called Press Cottage.

--
Dave,
Frodsham

In message <sv8eoa$t0i$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:20:10 on Thu, 24 Feb
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sv8bed$1uj$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:23:41 on Thu, 24 Feb
>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <j7kuocF7dlnU1@mid.individual.net>, at 20:18:20 on Tue, 22
>>>> Feb 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sv2ean$ua7$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:07 on Tue, 22 Feb
>>>>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Almost all writing conventions we think of as normal didn't really
>>>>>>> become fixed until the advent of the printing press. Things like the
>>>>>>> distinction between upper and lower case letters
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder how many people realise what that refers to?
>>>>>
>>>>>> A printer's tray with the lead lettering in had two important
>>>>>> characteristics.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Though in larger printing establishments and newspapers the job
>>>>>was done by
>>>>> people known as compositors rather than printers .
>>>>
>>>> I'd expect newspapers etc to be using something a bit more sophisticated
>>>> than manual type, whatever the job title was.
>>>>
>>>>> My late brother in law
>>>> ...
>>>>> He the became a self employed printer but your word processors etc killed
>>>>> that market so ran an antique bookshop in Brussels instead.
>>>>
>>>> The things which killed letterpress printing were offset litho and
>>>> photo-typesetting. Although things like the IBM Selectric Composer
>>>> were available as a transitional technology for enthusiastic amateurs to
>>>> produce their masters.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think personal WPs killed off anything in the printing industry
>>>> - if anything the reverse; because you can't realistically produce a
>>>> couple of hundred copies of a Parish Magazine on a 24-pin printer, but
>>>> without WP'sfor people to draft it on, you probably wouldn't even
>>>> consider having a Parish Magazine.
>>>
>>> !!?? You don’t think Parish Magazines existed in the
>>> !!typewriter+duplicator

>>> era, or the literal cut and paste and photocopier era?
>>
>> They might have done, but I don't think they provided much (if any)
>> business for professional printing businesses.
>
>But your last clause, “… without WP'sfor people to draft it on, you
>probably wouldn't even consider having a Parish Magazine”, is just
>nonsense.

A few parishes considered it, of course, but not on the scale that was
enabled by contributions created on home WPs, rather than pen and paper.

I was doing small circulation magazines (for an after-school club) using
a typewriter and wax masters for a
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_duplicator>, in the late 60's.

As it happens a different after-school club I also belonged to did
letterpress for in-house use, but generally restricted to stuff like
business cards and party invitations. We'd never have considered trying
to turn out a 2,000 word magazine using that technology.
--
Roland Perry