In message <st8jm3$c0e$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:11:47 on Mon, 31 Jan
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <st8ftg$tdp$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:07:28 on Mon, 31 Jan
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <st82g0$ij7$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:18:24 on Mon, 31 Jan
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <st6ede$8ku$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:29:34 on Sun, 30 Jan
>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <st614b$2d0$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:42:52 on Sun, 30 Jan
>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wonder if they regret having a station at Bond St at all?
>>>>>>>>>>It's not as
>>>>>>>>>> if the shops there are go-to destination any more.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's one of the two main city centre stations, and one end of it
>>>>>>>>> basically serves Oxford Circus. I'm not sure why anyone would
>>>>>>>>> think that not having a station there would be advantageous.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Saving a few billion quid, for starters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Might as well cut out all the stops between Paddington and
>>>>>>> Stratford/Canary
>>>>>>> Wharf then, save a few more?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You definitely need Farringdon for interchange, and one station in the
>>>>>> middle. Oxford Circus would be OK to substitute for both Bond St and
>>>>>> TCR. Suggesting scrapping the Liverpool St stop is simply bizarre.
>>>>>
>>>>> You need frequent stops in the central core otherwise you won’t get the
>>>>> desired numbers of passengers using it. Have a look at the Munich S-Bahn
>>>>> core. The tunnel through the middle of the city has very closely spaced
>>>>> stations.
>>>>
>>>> That rather depends what one thinks the purpose of the line is. If it's
>>>> to get people in one hop from Docklands to Heathrow (or even Maidenhead
>>>> to Romford) then stops in the core are more of a hindrance.
>>>
>>> As you well know, providing through services from the east to the west is
>>> just one of its multiple roles. One of its other major roles is to relieve
>>> the Central line, and that requires multiple stops in central London.
>>
>> The relief of the Central Line is mainly for interchanges at Liverpool
>> St to/from GEML. I doubt they are expecting to abstract many passengers
>> between Chancery Lane, Holborn and Queensway, let alone further west
>> like Shepherds Bush.
>
>It serves many of the same areas in central London, with some of the same
>stations, as the Central Line. People heading to those area from east or
>west will switch to the EL, leaving more space on the CL for others.

There does need to be a station serving that area, I'm just not
convinced it *has* to be quite as far west as Bond St. Holborn is just
as much a destination (and interchange), and has been missed out.

>>> It also needs to connect with north-south Tube lines.
>>
>> Which it could do at Oxford Circus. Currently it doesn't interchange
>> with the Piccadilly, Victoria, or Northern City-branch, so choose your
>> poison!
>
>It obviously interchanges with both Northern Line branches.

Does the Liverpool St station have an interchange with the Moorgate
Northern Line platforms? There's going to be quite a challenge to the
map-makers to show all these double-ended stations. At the moment
there's just (elsewhere on the network) the Southwark to Waterloo East
to Waterloo airside walking route, but they fail to show that on the
tube map (it's on the London Connections map though).

>Bond St provides the link to the Piccadilly and Victoria lines.

Is there an exit from the Bond St Crossrail station to the Victoria Line
at Oxford Circus? I wonder if there are any 3D maps online to answer
questions like this. I know people are famously exasperated at the
length of the interchange walkways at Green Park.

>It also, via the JL, provides a good western link to the Met,

Better than Farringdon? If you've started at the East End, why not
change there onto the Met, rather than going via Bond St and another
change at Baker St? I'd have thought a connection to the Bakerloo (at
Oxford Circus) for Wembley and Harrow would be more useful.

>in addition to the Farringdon connection.

--
Roland Perry

In message <st8kne$17h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:29:34 on Mon, 31 Jan
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>Strangely enough, even without your unique understanding of London
>commuting

I can't help it if I've studied it more than you appear to have done.

>and novel definition of central London,

I would never suggest Oxford Circus isn't central in London.

>the Crossrail planners
>actually did consider connecting to Oxford Circus:
>
>Bond Street will not be a cathedral station but deserves a mention because
>it will become Oxford Circus' 'second station by default'.
>
>When Crossrail was first being planned, there were plans for it to stop at
>Oxford Circus, one of the busiest stations on the Tube network. Planners
>decided against it because Oxford Circus station is already too busy and
>would not be able to handle the extra passengers without massive work,
>which would be difficult and costly to build because of the amount of
>historic and listed buildings that surround the station.
>
>Instead, the Elizabeth line station will have an exit onto Hanover Square,
>with a giant ticket hall for passengers.

Wonderful; so to connect from Crossrail to the Victoria Line, all
passengers have to do is go up to the surface at Hanover Square, walk a
block in all weathers, then go back down through the admitted already
congested legacy Oxford Circus Station to the Victoria Line platforms.

What could possibly be sub-optimal about that?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <st8kne$17h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:29:34 on Mon, 31 Jan
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> Strangely enough, even without your unique understanding of London
>> commuting
>
> I can't help it if I've studied it more than you appear to have done.
>
>> and novel definition of central London,
>
> I would never suggest Oxford Circus isn't central in London.
>
>> the Crossrail planners
>> actually did consider connecting to Oxford Circus:
>>
>> Bond Street will not be a cathedral station but deserves a mention because
>> it will become Oxford Circus' 'second station by default'.
>>
>> When Crossrail was first being planned, there were plans for it to stop at
>> Oxford Circus, one of the busiest stations on the Tube network. Planners
>> decided against it because Oxford Circus station is already too busy and
>> would not be able to handle the extra passengers without massive work,
>> which would be difficult and costly to build because of the amount of
>> historic and listed buildings that surround the station.
>>
>> Instead, the Elizabeth line station will have an exit onto Hanover Square,
>> with a giant ticket hall for passengers.
>
> Wonderful; so to connect from Crossrail to the Victoria Line, all
> passengers have to do is go up to the surface at Hanover Square, walk a
> block in all weathers, then go back down through the admitted already
> congested legacy Oxford Circus Station to the Victoria Line platforms.
>
> What could possibly be sub-optimal about that?

Why wouldn't they connect via Bond St and Green Park?

The Hanover St entrance is to serve the area, not primarily as an
interchange, though i suppose it will be a permitted OSI.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <st8jm3$c0e$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:11:47 on Mon, 31 Jan
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <st8ftg$tdp$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:07:28 on Mon, 31 Jan
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <st82g0$ij7$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:18:24 on Mon, 31 Jan
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <st6ede$8ku$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:29:34 on Sun, 30 Jan
>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <st614b$2d0$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:42:52 on Sun, 30 Jan
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder if they regret having a station at Bond St at all?
>>>>>>>>>>> It's not as
>>>>>>>>>>> if the shops there are go-to destination any more.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's one of the two main city centre stations, and one end of it
>>>>>>>>>> basically serves Oxford Circus. I'm not sure why anyone would
>>>>>>>>>> think that not having a station there would be advantageous.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Saving a few billion quid, for starters.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Might as well cut out all the stops between Paddington and
>>>>>>>> Stratford/Canary
>>>>>>>> Wharf then, save a few more?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You definitely need Farringdon for interchange, and one station in the
>>>>>>> middle. Oxford Circus would be OK to substitute for both Bond St and
>>>>>>> TCR. Suggesting scrapping the Liverpool St stop is simply bizarre.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You need frequent stops in the central core otherwise you won’t get the
>>>>>> desired numbers of passengers using it. Have a look at the Munich S-Bahn
>>>>>> core. The tunnel through the middle of the city has very closely spaced
>>>>>> stations.
>>>>>
>>>>> That rather depends what one thinks the purpose of the line is. If it's
>>>>> to get people in one hop from Docklands to Heathrow (or even Maidenhead
>>>>> to Romford) then stops in the core are more of a hindrance.
>>>>
>>>> As you well know, providing through services from the east to the west is
>>>> just one of its multiple roles. One of its other major roles is to relieve
>>>> the Central line, and that requires multiple stops in central London.
>>>
>>> The relief of the Central Line is mainly for interchanges at Liverpool
>>> St to/from GEML. I doubt they are expecting to abstract many passengers
>>> between Chancery Lane, Holborn and Queensway, let alone further west
>>> like Shepherds Bush.
>>
>> It serves many of the same areas in central London, with some of the same
>> stations, as the Central Line. People heading to those area from east or
>> west will switch to the EL, leaving more space on the CL for others.
>
> There does need to be a station serving that area, I'm just not
> convinced it *has* to be quite as far west as Bond St. Holborn is just
> as much a destination (and interchange), and has been missed out.

Yes, that's a pity. It leaves the Piccadilly line without a direct
connection to Crossrail, and also leaves that area unserved by it. But, I
suppose, if it were only possible to have one of those stations, they
picked the right one.

>
>>>> It also needs to connect with north-south Tube lines.
>>>
>>> Which it could do at Oxford Circus. Currently it doesn't interchange
>>> with the Piccadilly, Victoria, or Northern City-branch, so choose your
>>> poison!
>>
>> It obviously interchanges with both Northern Line branches.
>
> Does the Liverpool St station have an interchange with the Moorgate
> Northern Line platforms?

Yes

> There's going to be quite a challenge to the
> map-makers to show all these double-ended stations.

They've had plenty of time to work out how to do it!

> At the moment
> there's just (elsewhere on the network) the Southwark to Waterloo East
> to Waterloo airside walking route, but they fail to show that on the
> tube map (it's on the London Connections map though).
>
>> Bond St provides the link to the Piccadilly and Victoria lines.
>
> Is there an exit from the Bond St Crossrail station to the Victoria Line
> at Oxford Circus? I wonder if there are any 3D maps online to answer
> questions like this. I know people are famously exasperated at the
> length of the interchange walkways at Green Park.

It's quicker and much easier to use the escalators to connect. You
obviously have little practical knowledge of using the Tube.

>
>> It also, via the JL, provides a good western link to the Met,
>
> Better than Farringdon?

Did you not notice the word 'western'?

> If you've started at the East End, why not
> change there onto the Met, rather than going via Bond St and another
> change at Baker St?

The connection via Bond Street will be quicker and will get to more Met
services.

> I'd have thought a connection to the Bakerloo (at
> Oxford Circus) for Wembley and Harrow would be more useful.

If you knew anything about those lines, you'd know that people would change
at Finchley Road, not Baker Street. And, no, a change to the Bakerloo would
be much less useful, and for those who did want it, they'd change at
Paddington, not Oxford Circus, even if there was a connection there. That's
why Bond Street is a more useful interchange than Oxford Circus.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>
> Does the Liverpool St station have an interchange with the Moorgate
> Northern Line platforms? There's going to be quite a challenge to the
> map-makers to show all these double-ended stations. At the moment
> there's just (elsewhere on the network) the Southwark to Waterloo East
> to Waterloo airside walking route, but they fail to show that on the
> tube map (it's on the London Connections map though).
>

Stations with exits at both ends are common on European metro systems.
Stations with 6-8 or more, numbered exits are common on Asian metro
systems. I'm sure we'll cope.

>> Bond St provides the link to the Piccadilly and Victoria lines.
>
> Is there an exit from the Bond St Crossrail station to the Victoria Line
> at Oxford Circus? I wonder if there are any 3D maps online to answer
> questions like this. I know people are famously exasperated at the
> length of the interchange walkways at Green Park.
>

It's already been mentioned in this thread; EL Bond Street station Hanover
Square exit is a 250m walk from Oxford Circus, and will be an OSI.

The reason there's no underground link has also been explained - Oxford
Circus station is already 'too busy' without then adding an additional line
for people to access using the existing entrances.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <stg84j$cr0$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:43:47 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>I know people are famously exasperated at the
>> length of the interchange walkways at Green Park.
>
>It's quicker and much easier to use the escalators to connect.

Which is what I always do.

>You
>obviously have little practical knowledge of using the Tube.

I clearly have more than the average "people" do.

>>> It also, via the JL, provides a good western link to the Met,
>>
>> Better than Farringdon?
>
>Did you not notice the word 'western'?

Yes the Met does west (I used to catch it all the way to Uxbridge
sometimes.)

>> If you've started at the East End, why not change there onto the
>>Met, rather than going via Bond St and another change at Baker St?
>
>The connection via Bond Street will be quicker and will get to more Met
>services.

Even though it requires another change at Baker St?

>> I'd have thought a connection to the Bakerloo (at
>> Oxford Circus) for Wembley and Harrow would be more useful.
>
>If you knew anything about those lines, you'd know that people would change
>at Finchley Road, not Baker Street.

They clearly don't all, because the short escalators at the north end of
Baker St are really busy.

>And, no, a change to the Bakerloo would be much less useful, and for
>those who did want it, they'd change at Paddington, not Oxford Circus,
>even if there was a connection there. That's why Bond Street is a more
>useful interchange than Oxford Circus.

And for Piccadilly Circus to Elephant and Castle?
--
Roland Perry

In message <stg7ek$88p$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:32:04 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>> Wonderful; so to connect from Crossrail to the Victoria Line, all
>> passengers have to do is go up to the surface at Hanover Square, walk a
>> block in all weathers, then go back down through the admitted already
>> congested legacy Oxford Circus Station to the Victoria Line platforms.
>>
>> What could possibly be sub-optimal about that?
>
>Why wouldn't they connect via Bond St and Green Park?

Only the lengthy connection at Green Park, whichever way you then go on
the Victoria. To the north being a bit circuitous.
--
Roland Perry

In message <stgal5$t5h$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:26:45 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> Does the Liverpool St station have an interchange with the Moorgate
>> Northern Line platforms? There's going to be quite a challenge to the
>> map-makers to show all these double-ended stations. At the moment
>> there's just (elsewhere on the network) the Southwark to Waterloo East
>> to Waterloo airside walking route, but they fail to show that on the
>> tube map (it's on the London Connections map though).
>
>Stations with exits at both ends are common on European metro systems.
>Stations with 6-8 or more, numbered exits are common on Asian metro
>systems. I'm sure we'll cope.

"We" are a map-draughtsman now, are we?

>>> Bond St provides the link to the Piccadilly and Victoria lines.
>>
>> Is there an exit from the Bond St Crossrail station to the Victoria Line
>> at Oxford Circus? I wonder if there are any 3D maps online to answer
>> questions like this. I know people are famously exasperated at the
>> length of the interchange walkways at Green Park.
>
>It's already been mentioned in this thread; EL Bond Street station Hanover
>Square exit is a 250m walk from Oxford Circus, and will be an OSI.
>
>The reason there's no underground link has also been explained - Oxford
>Circus station is already 'too busy' without then adding an additional line
>for people to access using the existing entrances.

Repeating something doesn't necessarily make it any truer, though.

Anyway, nice to see people galloping to the defence of the Crossril
designers, after years of pouring scorn on anything emerging from that
other bastion of centralised planning, the DfT. A shame the project is
so well managed it's only three years late so far.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <stg84j$cr0$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:43:47 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> I know people are famously exasperated at the
>>> length of the interchange walkways at Green Park.
>>
>> It's quicker and much easier to use the escalators to connect.
>
> Which is what I always do.
>
>> You
>> obviously have little practical knowledge of using the Tube.
>
> I clearly have more than the average "people" do.
>
>>>> It also, via the JL, provides a good western link to the Met,
>>>
>>> Better than Farringdon?
>>
>> Did you not notice the word 'western'?
>
> Yes the Met does west (I used to catch it all the way to Uxbridge
> sometimes.)
>
>>> If you've started at the East End, why not change there onto the
>>> Met, rather than going via Bond St and another change at Baker St?
>>
>> The connection via Bond Street will be quicker and will get to more Met
>> services.
>
> Even though it requires another change at Baker St?

Why would someone change at Baker St?

>
>>> I'd have thought a connection to the Bakerloo (at
>>> Oxford Circus) for Wembley and Harrow would be more useful.
>>
>> If you knew anything about those lines, you'd know that people would change
>> at Finchley Road, not Baker Street.
>
> They clearly don't all, because the short escalators at the north end of
> Baker St are really busy.
>
>> And, no, a change to the Bakerloo would be much less useful, and for
>> those who did want it, they'd change at Paddington, not Oxford Circus,
>> even if there was a connection there. That's why Bond Street is a more
>> useful interchange than Oxford Circus.
>
> And for Piccadilly Circus to Elephant and Castle?

Change at Tottenham Court Road.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <stg7ek$88p$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:32:04 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> Wonderful; so to connect from Crossrail to the Victoria Line, all
>>> passengers have to do is go up to the surface at Hanover Square, walk a
>>> block in all weathers, then go back down through the admitted already
>>> congested legacy Oxford Circus Station to the Victoria Line platforms.
>>>
>>> What could possibly be sub-optimal about that?
>>
>> Why wouldn't they connect via Bond St and Green Park?
>
> Only the lengthy connection at Green Park, whichever way you then go on
> the Victoria.

It's not a lengthy connection. Citymapper reckons it takes 2 mins, which
seems about right.

> To the north being a bit circuitous.

Change at Tottenham Court Road. Not circuitous at all.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <stgal5$t5h$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:26:45 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Does the Liverpool St station have an interchange with the Moorgate
>>> Northern Line platforms? There's going to be quite a challenge to the
>>> map-makers to show all these double-ended stations. At the moment
>>> there's just (elsewhere on the network) the Southwark to Waterloo East
>>> to Waterloo airside walking route, but they fail to show that on the
>>> tube map (it's on the London Connections map though).
>>
>> Stations with exits at both ends are common on European metro systems.
>> Stations with 6-8 or more, numbered exits are common on Asian metro
>> systems. I'm sure we'll cope.
>
> "We" are a map-draughtsman now, are we?
>
>>>> Bond St provides the link to the Piccadilly and Victoria lines.
>>>
>>> Is there an exit from the Bond St Crossrail station to the Victoria Line
>>> at Oxford Circus? I wonder if there are any 3D maps online to answer
>>> questions like this. I know people are famously exasperated at the
>>> length of the interchange walkways at Green Park.
>>
>> It's already been mentioned in this thread; EL Bond Street station Hanover
>> Square exit is a 250m walk from Oxford Circus, and will be an OSI.
>>
>> The reason there's no underground link has also been explained - Oxford
>> Circus station is already 'too busy' without then adding an additional line
>> for people to access using the existing entrances.
>
> Repeating something doesn't necessarily make it any truer, though.
>
> Anyway, nice to see people galloping to the defence of the Crossril
> designers, after years of pouring scorn on anything emerging from that
> other bastion of centralised planning, the DfT. A shame the project is
> so well managed it's only three years late so far.

You seem to confuse the many different roles involved in a large building
project.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <stgal5$t5h$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:26:45 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Does the Liverpool St station have an interchange with the Moorgate
>>>> Northern Line platforms? There's going to be quite a challenge to the
>>>> map-makers to show all these double-ended stations. At the moment
>>>> there's just (elsewhere on the network) the Southwark to Waterloo East
>>>> to Waterloo airside walking route, but they fail to show that on the
>>>> tube map (it's on the London Connections map though).
>>>
>>> Stations with exits at both ends are common on European metro systems.
>>> Stations with 6-8 or more, numbered exits are common on Asian metro
>>> systems. I'm sure we'll cope.
>>
>> "We" are a map-draughtsman now, are we?
>>
>>>>> Bond St provides the link to the Piccadilly and Victoria lines.
>>>>
>>>> Is there an exit from the Bond St Crossrail station to the Victoria Line
>>>> at Oxford Circus? I wonder if there are any 3D maps online to answer
>>>> questions like this. I know people are famously exasperated at the
>>>> length of the interchange walkways at Green Park.
>>>
>>> It's already been mentioned in this thread; EL Bond Street station Hanover
>>> Square exit is a 250m walk from Oxford Circus, and will be an OSI.
>>>
>>> The reason there's no underground link has also been explained - Oxford
>>> Circus station is already 'too busy' without then adding an additional line
>>> for people to access using the existing entrances.
>>
>> Repeating something doesn't necessarily make it any truer, though.
>>
>> Anyway, nice to see people galloping to the defence of the Crossril
>> designers, after years of pouring scorn on anything emerging from that
>> other bastion of centralised planning, the DfT. A shame the project is
>> so well managed it's only three years late so far.
>
> You seem to confuse the many different roles involved in a large building
> project.
>
>

3 years isn’t that bad in the grand scheme of things. It’s been a very big
project, working in a crowded city. It’s easy to project plan something
that’s been done before, eg a new motorway in an easy location. Project
planning something this difficult becomes a series of educated guesses.
There’s a bit of a cult in management circles that if Microsoft Project (or
software of choice) shows a timeline things will automatically follow it.
And remember that at project start only the highly optimistic success
assured projections are shown to get the project approved.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <stgal5$t5h$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:26:45 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Does the Liverpool St station have an interchange with the Moorgate
>>>>> Northern Line platforms? There's going to be quite a challenge to the
>>>>> map-makers to show all these double-ended stations. At the moment
>>>>> there's just (elsewhere on the network) the Southwark to Waterloo East
>>>>> to Waterloo airside walking route, but they fail to show that on the
>>>>> tube map (it's on the London Connections map though).
>>>>
>>>> Stations with exits at both ends are common on European metro systems.
>>>> Stations with 6-8 or more, numbered exits are common on Asian metro
>>>> systems. I'm sure we'll cope.
>>>
>>> "We" are a map-draughtsman now, are we?
>>>
>>>>>> Bond St provides the link to the Piccadilly and Victoria lines.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there an exit from the Bond St Crossrail station to the Victoria Line
>>>>> at Oxford Circus? I wonder if there are any 3D maps online to answer
>>>>> questions like this. I know people are famously exasperated at the
>>>>> length of the interchange walkways at Green Park.
>>>>
>>>> It's already been mentioned in this thread; EL Bond Street station Hanover
>>>> Square exit is a 250m walk from Oxford Circus, and will be an OSI.
>>>>
>>>> The reason there's no underground link has also been explained - Oxford
>>>> Circus station is already 'too busy' without then adding an additional line
>>>> for people to access using the existing entrances.
>>>
>>> Repeating something doesn't necessarily make it any truer, though.
>>>
>>> Anyway, nice to see people galloping to the defence of the Crossril
>>> designers, after years of pouring scorn on anything emerging from that
>>> other bastion of centralised planning, the DfT. A shame the project is
>>> so well managed it's only three years late so far.
>>
>> You seem to confuse the many different roles involved in a large building
>> project.
>>
>>
>
> 3 years isn’t that bad in the grand scheme of things. It’s been a very big
> project, working in a crowded city. It’s easy to project plan something
> that’s been done before, eg a new motorway in an easy location. Project
> planning something this difficult becomes a series of educated guesses.

Yes, the Crossrail cost and schedule overruns are nothing out of the
ordinary. The only disturbing aspect was how late the slippage was reported
by the then senior managers of the project. They were either remarkably out
of touch with the project reality, or covering up problems. I suspect it
was the former, probably because the senior management made it clear to
subordinates they didn't like hearing bad news.

It's also noteworthy that the train software has caused as much delay as
the construction and fitting out of the gargantuan underground stations
under central London. When the line does open, it will be dependent on a
train operating software release that's only weeks old. That would be a lot
more embarrassingly obvious if the stations and signalling had been on
time.

> There’s a bit of a cult in management circles that if Microsoft Project (or
> software of choice) shows a timeline things will automatically follow it.
> And remember that at project start only the highly optimistic success
> assured projections are shown to get the project approved.
>
>

Yes, that last point is key: many, perhaps most, large civil engineering
projects would never get approved if the proposals had included the true
costs and timescales. It's why the government adds an automatic optimism
bias factor when evaluating such projects. It's a hefty 66% at the initial
stage:

<https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/576976/dft-optimism-bias-study.pdf>

On 03/02/2022 19:05, Tweed wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <stgal5$t5h$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:26:45 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Does the Liverpool St station have an interchange with the Moorgate
>>>>> Northern Line platforms? There's going to be quite a challenge to the
>>>>> map-makers to show all these double-ended stations. At the moment
>>>>> there's just (elsewhere on the network) the Southwark to Waterloo East
>>>>> to Waterloo airside walking route, but they fail to show that on the
>>>>> tube map (it's on the London Connections map though).
>>>>
>>>> Stations with exits at both ends are common on European metro systems.
>>>> Stations with 6-8 or more, numbered exits are common on Asian metro
>>>> systems. I'm sure we'll cope.
>>>
>>> "We" are a map-draughtsman now, are we?
>>>
>>>>>> Bond St provides the link to the Piccadilly and Victoria lines.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there an exit from the Bond St Crossrail station to the Victoria Line
>>>>> at Oxford Circus? I wonder if there are any 3D maps online to answer
>>>>> questions like this. I know people are famously exasperated at the
>>>>> length of the interchange walkways at Green Park.
>>>>
>>>> It's already been mentioned in this thread; EL Bond Street station Hanover
>>>> Square exit is a 250m walk from Oxford Circus, and will be an OSI.
>>>>
>>>> The reason there's no underground link has also been explained - Oxford
>>>> Circus station is already 'too busy' without then adding an additional line
>>>> for people to access using the existing entrances.
>>>
>>> Repeating something doesn't necessarily make it any truer, though.
>>>
>>> Anyway, nice to see people galloping to the defence of the Crossril
>>> designers, after years of pouring scorn on anything emerging from that
>>> other bastion of centralised planning, the DfT. A shame the project is
>>> so well managed it's only three years late so far.
>>
>> You seem to confuse the many different roles involved in a large building
>> project.
>>
>>
>
> 3 years isn’t that bad in the grand scheme of things. It’s been a very big
> project, working in a crowded city. It’s easy to project plan something
> that’s been done before, eg a new motorway in an easy location. Project
> planning something this difficult becomes a series of educated guesses.
> There’s a bit of a cult in management circles that if Microsoft Project (or
> software of choice) shows a timeline things will automatically follow it.
> And remember that at project start only the highly optimistic success
> assured projections are shown to get the project approved.
>

With projects like this, be they public or private, the entities that
order them have to give a date as to when it will go online or start
operating.

This, AIUI, is particularly the case with PLCs.

In reality, what the ordering party would like to say is that they aim /
would like to have it up and running by about this time, based on
initial projections, though that could easily change.

The problem, of course, is various technical and engineering
difficulties or other unforeseen events can arise as the project is
underway.

Afterwards, if a project does not come on stream at the originally
indicated time, people point the finger and say "Look, they're not
serious about this" or claim that the company lied about when a project
would come on stream

Crossrail is not an easy project, requiring many thousands of manpower
hours, expertise, specialised equipment and various engineering challenges.

I'm not apologising for Crossrail and its delays, mind you, but rather
just saying what in many cases can happen with a project of this magnitude.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 03/02/2022 19:05, Tweed wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <stgal5$t5h$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:26:45 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does the Liverpool St station have an interchange with the Moorgate
>>>>>> Northern Line platforms? There's going to be quite a challenge to the
>>>>>> map-makers to show all these double-ended stations. At the moment
>>>>>> there's just (elsewhere on the network) the Southwark to Waterloo East
>>>>>> to Waterloo airside walking route, but they fail to show that on the
>>>>>> tube map (it's on the London Connections map though).
>>>>>
>>>>> Stations with exits at both ends are common on European metro systems.
>>>>> Stations with 6-8 or more, numbered exits are common on Asian metro
>>>>> systems. I'm sure we'll cope.
>>>>
>>>> "We" are a map-draughtsman now, are we?
>>>>
>>>>>>> Bond St provides the link to the Piccadilly and Victoria lines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there an exit from the Bond St Crossrail station to the Victoria Line
>>>>>> at Oxford Circus? I wonder if there are any 3D maps online to answer
>>>>>> questions like this. I know people are famously exasperated at the
>>>>>> length of the interchange walkways at Green Park.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's already been mentioned in this thread; EL Bond Street station Hanover
>>>>> Square exit is a 250m walk from Oxford Circus, and will be an OSI.
>>>>>
>>>>> The reason there's no underground link has also been explained - Oxford
>>>>> Circus station is already 'too busy' without then adding an additional line
>>>>> for people to access using the existing entrances.
>>>>
>>>> Repeating something doesn't necessarily make it any truer, though.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, nice to see people galloping to the defence of the Crossril
>>>> designers, after years of pouring scorn on anything emerging from that
>>>> other bastion of centralised planning, the DfT. A shame the project is
>>>> so well managed it's only three years late so far.
>>>
>>> You seem to confuse the many different roles involved in a large building
>>> project.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> 3 years isn’t that bad in the grand scheme of things. It’s been a very big
>> project, working in a crowded city. It’s easy to project plan something
>> that’s been done before, eg a new motorway in an easy location. Project
>> planning something this difficult becomes a series of educated guesses.
>> There’s a bit of a cult in management circles that if Microsoft Project (or
>> software of choice) shows a timeline things will automatically follow it.
>> And remember that at project start only the highly optimistic success
>> assured projections are shown to get the project approved.
>>
>
>
> With projects like this, be they public or private, the entities that
> order them have to give a date as to when it will go online or start
> operating.
>
> This, AIUI, is particularly the case with PLCs.
>
> In reality, what the ordering party would like to say is that they aim /
> would like to have it up and running by about this time, based on
> initial projections, though that could easily change.
>
> The problem, of course, is various technical and engineering
> difficulties or other unforeseen events can arise as the project is
> underway.
>
> Afterwards, if a project does not come on stream at the originally
> indicated time, people point the finger and say "Look, they're not
> serious about this" or claim that the company lied about when a project
> would come on stream
>
> Crossrail is not an easy project, requiring many thousands of manpower
> hours, expertise, specialised equipment and various engineering challenges.
>
> I'm not apologising for Crossrail and its delays, mind you, but rather
> just saying what in many cases can happen with a project of this magnitude.
>
>
Covid isn’t helping either. During the lockdowns construction industries
mainly carried on but with lower productivity because of social distancing
etc. Now supply chain issues are affecting all industries. This isn’t
Brexit related, I know of lots of issues on mainland Europe. Cross rail is
probably also suffering labour shortages, that due to Brexit. It’s not a
good time to be running any sort of major project.

On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 08:26:16 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 03/02/2022 19:05, Tweed wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <stgal5$t5h$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:26:45 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does the Liverpool St station have an interchange with the Moorgate
>>>>>>> Northern Line platforms? There's going to be quite a challenge to the
>>>>>>> map-makers to show all these double-ended stations. At the moment
>>>>>>> there's just (elsewhere on the network) the Southwark to Waterloo East
>>>>>>> to Waterloo airside walking route, but they fail to show that on the
>>>>>>> tube map (it's on the London Connections map though).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stations with exits at both ends are common on European metro systems.
>>>>>> Stations with 6-8 or more, numbered exits are common on Asian metro
>>>>>> systems. I'm sure we'll cope.
>>>>>
>>>>> "We" are a map-draughtsman now, are we?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bond St provides the link to the Piccadilly and Victoria lines.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there an exit from the Bond St Crossrail station to the Victoria Line
>>>>>>> at Oxford Circus? I wonder if there are any 3D maps online to answer
>>>>>>> questions like this. I know people are famously exasperated at the
>>>>>>> length of the interchange walkways at Green Park.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's already been mentioned in this thread; EL Bond Street station Hanover
>>>>>> Square exit is a 250m walk from Oxford Circus, and will be an OSI.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The reason there's no underground link has also been explained - Oxford
>>>>>> Circus station is already 'too busy' without then adding an additional line
>>>>>> for people to access using the existing entrances.
>>>>>
>>>>> Repeating something doesn't necessarily make it any truer, though.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, nice to see people galloping to the defence of the Crossril
>>>>> designers, after years of pouring scorn on anything emerging from that
>>>>> other bastion of centralised planning, the DfT. A shame the project is
>>>>> so well managed it's only three years late so far.
>>>>
>>>> You seem to confuse the many different roles involved in a large building
>>>> project.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> 3 years isn’t that bad in the grand scheme of things. It’s been a very big
>>> project, working in a crowded city. It’s easy to project plan something
>>> that’s been done before, eg a new motorway in an easy location. Project
>>> planning something this difficult becomes a series of educated guesses.
>>> There’s a bit of a cult in management circles that if Microsoft Project (or
>>> software of choice) shows a timeline things will automatically follow it.
>>> And remember that at project start only the highly optimistic success
>>> assured projections are shown to get the project approved.
>>>
>>
>>
>> With projects like this, be they public or private, the entities that
>> order them have to give a date as to when it will go online or start
>> operating.
>>
>> This, AIUI, is particularly the case with PLCs.
>>
>> In reality, what the ordering party would like to say is that they aim /
>> would like to have it up and running by about this time, based on
>> initial projections, though that could easily change.
>>
>> The problem, of course, is various technical and engineering
>> difficulties or other unforeseen events can arise as the project is
>> underway.
>>
>> Afterwards, if a project does not come on stream at the originally
>> indicated time, people point the finger and say "Look, they're not
>> serious about this" or claim that the company lied about when a project
>> would come on stream
>>
>> Crossrail is not an easy project, requiring many thousands of manpower
>> hours, expertise, specialised equipment and various engineering challenges.
>>
>> I'm not apologising for Crossrail and its delays, mind you, but rather
>> just saying what in many cases can happen with a project of this magnitude.
>>
>>
>Covid isn’t helping either. During the lockdowns construction industries
>mainly carried on but with lower productivity because of social distancing
>etc. Now supply chain issues are affecting all industries. This isn’t
>Brexit related, I know of lots of issues on mainland Europe. Cross rail is
>probably also suffering labour shortages, that due to Brexit. It’s not a
>good time to be running any sort of major project.

All true, but I wonder if Bombardier (now Alstom) can blame Covid for non-functional software? Even if everything else
had been heroically on time, the railway might still not have opened because of unreliable trains.

As an aside, SWR is getting increasingly irate about the delays with its 701 fleet. Apparently they're so far below spec
that SWR won't even accept them for test running. It says that this is the worst performance yet for the various Aventra
fleets.

On 04/02/2022 08:26, Tweed wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 03/02/2022 19:05, Tweed wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <stgal5$t5h$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:26:45 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does the Liverpool St station have an interchange with the Moorgate
>>>>>>> Northern Line platforms? There's going to be quite a challenge to the
>>>>>>> map-makers to show all these double-ended stations. At the moment
>>>>>>> there's just (elsewhere on the network) the Southwark to Waterloo East
>>>>>>> to Waterloo airside walking route, but they fail to show that on the
>>>>>>> tube map (it's on the London Connections map though).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stations with exits at both ends are common on European metro systems.
>>>>>> Stations with 6-8 or more, numbered exits are common on Asian metro
>>>>>> systems. I'm sure we'll cope.
>>>>>
>>>>> "We" are a map-draughtsman now, are we?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bond St provides the link to the Piccadilly and Victoria lines.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there an exit from the Bond St Crossrail station to the Victoria Line
>>>>>>> at Oxford Circus? I wonder if there are any 3D maps online to answer
>>>>>>> questions like this. I know people are famously exasperated at the
>>>>>>> length of the interchange walkways at Green Park.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's already been mentioned in this thread; EL Bond Street station Hanover
>>>>>> Square exit is a 250m walk from Oxford Circus, and will be an OSI.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The reason there's no underground link has also been explained - Oxford
>>>>>> Circus station is already 'too busy' without then adding an additional line
>>>>>> for people to access using the existing entrances.
>>>>>
>>>>> Repeating something doesn't necessarily make it any truer, though.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, nice to see people galloping to the defence of the Crossril
>>>>> designers, after years of pouring scorn on anything emerging from that
>>>>> other bastion of centralised planning, the DfT. A shame the project is
>>>>> so well managed it's only three years late so far.
>>>>
>>>> You seem to confuse the many different roles involved in a large building
>>>> project.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> 3 years isn’t that bad in the grand scheme of things. It’s been a very big
>>> project, working in a crowded city. It’s easy to project plan something
>>> that’s been done before, eg a new motorway in an easy location. Project
>>> planning something this difficult becomes a series of educated guesses.
>>> There’s a bit of a cult in management circles that if Microsoft Project (or
>>> software of choice) shows a timeline things will automatically follow it.
>>> And remember that at project start only the highly optimistic success
>>> assured projections are shown to get the project approved.
>>>
>>
>>
>> With projects like this, be they public or private, the entities that
>> order them have to give a date as to when it will go online or start
>> operating.
>>
>> This, AIUI, is particularly the case with PLCs.
>>
>> In reality, what the ordering party would like to say is that they aim /
>> would like to have it up and running by about this time, based on
>> initial projections, though that could easily change.
>>
>> The problem, of course, is various technical and engineering
>> difficulties or other unforeseen events can arise as the project is
>> underway.
>>
>> Afterwards, if a project does not come on stream at the originally
>> indicated time, people point the finger and say "Look, they're not
>> serious about this" or claim that the company lied about when a project
>> would come on stream
>>
>> Crossrail is not an easy project, requiring many thousands of manpower
>> hours, expertise, specialised equipment and various engineering challenges.
>>
>> I'm not apologising for Crossrail and its delays, mind you, but rather
>> just saying what in many cases can happen with a project of this magnitude.
>>
>>
> Covid isn’t helping either. During the lockdowns construction industries
> mainly carried on but with lower productivity because of social distancing
> etc.

Sure.

> Now supply chain issues are affecting all industries.
> This isn’t
> Brexit related, I know of lots of issues on mainland Europe.

Shipping containers are still all over the place, though I understand
that this situation will likely improve towards year's end, and it is
safe to assume that the project also requires components from further
afield.

> Cross rail is
> probably also suffering labour shortages, that due to Brexit. It’s not a
> good time to be running any sort of major project.

One other thing that I forgot to mention was cost: Companies also have
to give an exact amount, as per listing rules, when indeed they would
like to say that the project's estimated cost is such and such, though
there might be other factors impacting that.

I wonder if companies set up escrow acocunts to soften the blow of cost
overruns. I'm sure that they do, however, and that they thought of this
long, long ago.

On 04/02/2022 12:47, Recliner wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 08:26:16 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 03/02/2022 19:05, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <stgal5$t5h$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:26:45 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does the Liverpool St station have an interchange with the Moorgate
>>>>>>>> Northern Line platforms? There's going to be quite a challenge to the
>>>>>>>> map-makers to show all these double-ended stations. At the moment
>>>>>>>> there's just (elsewhere on the network) the Southwark to Waterloo East
>>>>>>>> to Waterloo airside walking route, but they fail to show that on the
>>>>>>>> tube map (it's on the London Connections map though).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stations with exits at both ends are common on European metro systems.
>>>>>>> Stations with 6-8 or more, numbered exits are common on Asian metro
>>>>>>> systems. I'm sure we'll cope.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "We" are a map-draughtsman now, are we?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bond St provides the link to the Piccadilly and Victoria lines.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there an exit from the Bond St Crossrail station to the Victoria Line
>>>>>>>> at Oxford Circus? I wonder if there are any 3D maps online to answer
>>>>>>>> questions like this. I know people are famously exasperated at the
>>>>>>>> length of the interchange walkways at Green Park.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's already been mentioned in this thread; EL Bond Street station Hanover
>>>>>>> Square exit is a 250m walk from Oxford Circus, and will be an OSI.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The reason there's no underground link has also been explained - Oxford
>>>>>>> Circus station is already 'too busy' without then adding an additional line
>>>>>>> for people to access using the existing entrances.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Repeating something doesn't necessarily make it any truer, though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, nice to see people galloping to the defence of the Crossril
>>>>>> designers, after years of pouring scorn on anything emerging from that
>>>>>> other bastion of centralised planning, the DfT. A shame the project is
>>>>>> so well managed it's only three years late so far.
>>>>>
>>>>> You seem to confuse the many different roles involved in a large building
>>>>> project.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 3 years isn’t that bad in the grand scheme of things. It’s been a very big
>>>> project, working in a crowded city. It’s easy to project plan something
>>>> that’s been done before, eg a new motorway in an easy location. Project
>>>> planning something this difficult becomes a series of educated guesses.
>>>> There’s a bit of a cult in management circles that if Microsoft Project (or
>>>> software of choice) shows a timeline things will automatically follow it.
>>>> And remember that at project start only the highly optimistic success
>>>> assured projections are shown to get the project approved.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> With projects like this, be they public or private, the entities that
>>> order them have to give a date as to when it will go online or start
>>> operating.
>>>
>>> This, AIUI, is particularly the case with PLCs.
>>>
>>> In reality, what the ordering party would like to say is that they aim /
>>> would like to have it up and running by about this time, based on
>>> initial projections, though that could easily change.
>>>
>>> The problem, of course, is various technical and engineering
>>> difficulties or other unforeseen events can arise as the project is
>>> underway.
>>>
>>> Afterwards, if a project does not come on stream at the originally
>>> indicated time, people point the finger and say "Look, they're not
>>> serious about this" or claim that the company lied about when a project
>>> would come on stream
>>>
>>> Crossrail is not an easy project, requiring many thousands of manpower
>>> hours, expertise, specialised equipment and various engineering challenges.
>>>
>>> I'm not apologising for Crossrail and its delays, mind you, but rather
>>> just saying what in many cases can happen with a project of this magnitude.
>>>
>>>
>> Covid isn’t helping either. During the lockdowns construction industries
>> mainly carried on but with lower productivity because of social distancing
>> etc. Now supply chain issues are affecting all industries. This isn’t
>> Brexit related, I know of lots of issues on mainland Europe. Cross rail is
>> probably also suffering labour shortages, that due to Brexit. It’s not a
>> good time to be running any sort of major project.
>
> All true, but I wonder if Bombardier (now Alstom) can blame Covid for non-functional software? Even if everything else
> had been heroically on time, the railway might still not have opened because of unreliable trains.
>
> As an aside, SWR is getting increasingly irate about the delays with its 701 fleet. Apparently they're so far below spec
> that SWR won't even accept them for test running. It says that this is the worst performance yet for the various Aventra
> fleets.

I've seen a 701 at Basingstoke a couple of times, presumably on test
runs. Last time was Tuesday morning.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 04/02/2022 12:47, Recliner wrote:
>> On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 08:26:16 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 03/02/2022 19:05, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <stgal5$t5h$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:26:45 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Does the Liverpool St station have an interchange with the Moorgate
>>>>>>>>> Northern Line platforms? There's going to be quite a challenge to the
>>>>>>>>> map-makers to show all these double-ended stations. At the moment
>>>>>>>>> there's just (elsewhere on the network) the Southwark to Waterloo East
>>>>>>>>> to Waterloo airside walking route, but they fail to show that on the
>>>>>>>>> tube map (it's on the London Connections map though).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stations with exits at both ends are common on European metro systems.
>>>>>>>> Stations with 6-8 or more, numbered exits are common on Asian metro
>>>>>>>> systems. I'm sure we'll cope.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "We" are a map-draughtsman now, are we?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bond St provides the link to the Piccadilly and Victoria lines.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is there an exit from the Bond St Crossrail station to the Victoria Line
>>>>>>>>> at Oxford Circus? I wonder if there are any 3D maps online to answer
>>>>>>>>> questions like this. I know people are famously exasperated at the
>>>>>>>>> length of the interchange walkways at Green Park.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's already been mentioned in this thread; EL Bond Street station Hanover
>>>>>>>> Square exit is a 250m walk from Oxford Circus, and will be an OSI.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The reason there's no underground link has also been explained - Oxford
>>>>>>>> Circus station is already 'too busy' without then adding an additional line
>>>>>>>> for people to access using the existing entrances.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Repeating something doesn't necessarily make it any truer, though.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, nice to see people galloping to the defence of the Crossril
>>>>>>> designers, after years of pouring scorn on anything emerging from that
>>>>>>> other bastion of centralised planning, the DfT. A shame the project is
>>>>>>> so well managed it's only three years late so far.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You seem to confuse the many different roles involved in a large building
>>>>>> project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3 years isn’t that bad in the grand scheme of things. It’s been a very big
>>>>> project, working in a crowded city. It’s easy to project plan something
>>>>> that’s been done before, eg a new motorway in an easy location. Project
>>>>> planning something this difficult becomes a series of educated guesses.
>>>>> There’s a bit of a cult in management circles that if Microsoft Project (or
>>>>> software of choice) shows a timeline things will automatically follow it.
>>>>> And remember that at project start only the highly optimistic success
>>>>> assured projections are shown to get the project approved.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> With projects like this, be they public or private, the entities that
>>>> order them have to give a date as to when it will go online or start
>>>> operating.
>>>>
>>>> This, AIUI, is particularly the case with PLCs.
>>>>
>>>> In reality, what the ordering party would like to say is that they aim /
>>>> would like to have it up and running by about this time, based on
>>>> initial projections, though that could easily change.
>>>>
>>>> The problem, of course, is various technical and engineering
>>>> difficulties or other unforeseen events can arise as the project is
>>>> underway.
>>>>
>>>> Afterwards, if a project does not come on stream at the originally
>>>> indicated time, people point the finger and say "Look, they're not
>>>> serious about this" or claim that the company lied about when a project
>>>> would come on stream
>>>>
>>>> Crossrail is not an easy project, requiring many thousands of manpower
>>>> hours, expertise, specialised equipment and various engineering challenges.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not apologising for Crossrail and its delays, mind you, but rather
>>>> just saying what in many cases can happen with a project of this magnitude.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Covid isn’t helping either. During the lockdowns construction industries
>>> mainly carried on but with lower productivity because of social distancing
>>> etc. Now supply chain issues are affecting all industries. This isn’t
>>> Brexit related, I know of lots of issues on mainland Europe. Cross rail is
>>> probably also suffering labour shortages, that due to Brexit. It’s not a
>>> good time to be running any sort of major project.
>>
>> All true, but I wonder if Bombardier (now Alstom) can blame Covid for
>> non-functional software? Even if everything else
>> had been heroically on time, the railway might still not have opened
>> because of unreliable trains.
>>
>> As an aside, SWR is getting increasingly irate about the delays with its
>> 701 fleet. Apparently they're so far below spec
>> that SWR won't even accept them for test running. It says that this is
>> the worst performance yet for the various Aventra
>> fleets.
>
> I've seen a 701 at Basingstoke a couple of times, presumably on test
> runs. Last time was Tuesday morning.

Apparently they're not being operated by SWR staff yet.

In message <stgu5v$515$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:59:59 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <stgal5$t5h$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:26:45 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Does the Liverpool St station have an interchange with the Moorgate
>>>> Northern Line platforms? There's going to be quite a challenge to the
>>>> map-makers to show all these double-ended stations. At the moment
>>>> there's just (elsewhere on the network) the Southwark to Waterloo East
>>>> to Waterloo airside walking route, but they fail to show that on the
>>>> tube map (it's on the London Connections map though).
>>>
>>> Stations with exits at both ends are common on European metro systems.
>>> Stations with 6-8 or more, numbered exits are common on Asian metro
>>> systems. I'm sure we'll cope.
>>
>> "We" are a map-draughtsman now, are we?
>>
>>>>> Bond St provides the link to the Piccadilly and Victoria lines.
>>>>
>>>> Is there an exit from the Bond St Crossrail station to the Victoria Line
>>>> at Oxford Circus? I wonder if there are any 3D maps online to answer
>>>> questions like this. I know people are famously exasperated at the
>>>> length of the interchange walkways at Green Park.
>>>
>>> It's already been mentioned in this thread; EL Bond Street station Hanover
>>> Square exit is a 250m walk from Oxford Circus, and will be an OSI.
>>>
>>> The reason there's no underground link has also been explained - Oxford
>>> Circus station is already 'too busy' without then adding an additional line
>>> for people to access using the existing entrances.
>>
>> Repeating something doesn't necessarily make it any truer, though.
>>
>> Anyway, nice to see people galloping to the defence of the Crossril
>> designers, after years of pouring scorn on anything emerging from that
>> other bastion of centralised planning, the DfT. A shame the project is
>> so well managed it's only three years late so far.
>
>You seem to confuse the many different roles involved in a large building
>project.

No, if anything I think I'm less guilty of conflating them as many
others here.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sthla7$h7m$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:34:47 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>many, perhaps most, large civil engineering projects would never get
>approved if the proposals had included the true costs and timescales.
>It's why the government adds an automatic optimism bias factor when
>evaluating such projects. It's a hefty 66% at the initial stage:

And what's your response when the cost ends up at twice that 166%?
--
Roland Perry

In message <iq7qvgphjtb2ed1ss0l7dt46rdcvhuek7c@4ax.com>, at 12:47:06 on
Fri, 4 Feb 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>I wonder if Bombardier (now Alstom) can blame Covid for non-functional software?

Especially as software engineers are in the vanguard of those who brag
they can just as easily work from home.
--
Roland Perry

In message <stgu5v$515$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:59:59 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <stg7ek$88p$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:32:04 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> Wonderful; so to connect from Crossrail to the Victoria Line, all
>>>> passengers have to do is go up to the surface at Hanover Square, walk a
>>>> block in all weathers, then go back down through the admitted already
>>>> congested legacy Oxford Circus Station to the Victoria Line platforms.
>>>>
>>>> What could possibly be sub-optimal about that?
>>>
>>> Why wouldn't they connect via Bond St and Green Park?
>>
>> Only the lengthy connection at Green Park, whichever way you then go on
>> the Victoria.
>
>It's not a lengthy connection. Citymapper reckons it takes 2 mins, which
>seems about right.

Is that up and down the escalators via the ticket hall, plus the
passages deep below the surface to get to/from the escalators?

>> To the north being a bit circuitous.
>
>Change at Tottenham Court Road. Not circuitous at all.

I must have missed when they commissioned Victoria Line platforms at
TCR.
--
Roland Perry

In message <stgtl3$1cb$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:50:59 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <stg84j$cr0$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:43:47 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> I know people are famously exasperated at the
>>>> length of the interchange walkways at Green Park.
>>>
>>> It's quicker and much easier to use the escalators to connect.
>>
>> Which is what I always do.
>>
>>> You
>>> obviously have little practical knowledge of using the Tube.
>>
>> I clearly have more than the average "people" do.
>>
>>>>> It also, via the JL, provides a good western link to the Met,
>>>>
>>>> Better than Farringdon?
>>>
>>> Did you not notice the word 'western'?
>>
>> Yes the Met does west (I used to catch it all the way to Uxbridge
>> sometimes.)
>>
>>>> If you've started at the East End, why not change there onto the
>>>> Met, rather than going via Bond St and another change at Baker St?
>>>
>>> The connection via Bond Street will be quicker and will get to more Met
>>> services.
>>
>> Even though it requires another change at Baker St?
>
>Why would someone change at Baker St?

To get to somewhere like Ickenham (a railhead I used for a few years
being close to theA140 and more likely than others to have spare car
park capacity)

>>>> I'd have thought a connection to the Bakerloo (at
>>>> Oxford Circus) for Wembley and Harrow would be more useful.
>>>
>>> If you knew anything about those lines, you'd know that people would change
>>> at Finchley Road, not Baker Street.
>>
>> They clearly don't all, because the short escalators at the north end of
>> Baker St are really busy.
>>
>>> And, no, a change to the Bakerloo would be much less useful, and for
>>> those who did want it, they'd change at Paddington, not Oxford Circus,
>>> even if there was a connection there. That's why Bond Street is a more
>>> useful interchange than Oxford Circus.
>>
>> And for Piccadilly Circus to Elephant and Castle?
>
>Change at Tottenham Court Road.

Last time I looked, the Northern Line didn't serve Piccadilly Circus,
Lambeth North, or E&C via TCR.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sthla7$h7m$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:34:47 on Thu, 3 Feb 2022,
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> many, perhaps most, large civil engineering projects would never get
>> approved if the proposals had included the true costs and timescales.
>> It's why the government adds an automatic optimism bias factor when
>> evaluating such projects. It's a hefty 66% at the initial stage:
>
> And what's your response when the cost ends up at twice that 166%?

In which projects has that happened? Note that the budget would be set at
100%, not 166% (ie, the OBF is used when evaluating proposals, but doesn't
get added to the budget).

Crossrail's overshoot has been relatively modest: it was expected to cost
£15.9bn in 2007, subsequently cut to £14.8bn in 2010, while the final cost
is likely to turn out to be £19bn. So that's an overshoot of just under
20%.