On 2022-01-27 19:41:58 +0000, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk said:

> On 27/01/2022 18:04, Tweed wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>>>> better. We can
>>>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>>>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>>>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>>>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>>>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>>>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>>>> 16352/>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
>>>
>>> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
>>
>> Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
>> that rail is within the zone system. Why would Crossrail be any different?
>> I get the feeling folk are looking for problems that don’t really exist for
>> the vast majority of users. Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of
>> everything?
>>
> All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
> but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.

All of the indications published so far indicate that there should be
no problem doing so. In principle, the ticketing is integrated with
the NR system, so it may be that the validity of a ticket between EG
Ipswich and Swindon would be valid on it in its own right (eg in the
event that the current funding issues with TfL result in the abolition
of the maltese cross system).

Robin

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ssumrf$gm4$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:04:31 on Thu, 27 Jan
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>>>> better. We can
>>>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a
>>>>>>>>> decision
>>>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>>>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>>>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>>>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>>>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>>>> 16352/>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
>>>
>>> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
>>
>> Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
>> that rail is within the zone system.
>
> Yes and no. I used to visit somewhere near Vauxhall, and it definitely
> cost more to get back to the East End via Waterloo Mainline (then
> probably W&C and Central Line), than exclusively using the tube.

I thought that differential pricing ended many years ago when the zonal
sydtem superseded it.

On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>
>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the
>>>>>>>>> underground?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>
>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>
>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>> constructed,
>>>> and often third rail.
>>>
>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>
>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>
> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to an
> S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated metro.

SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
Line is still an Interurban.

Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.

> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and from
> the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).

Huh?

Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.

There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.

Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
they've pretty much gone full time.

MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.

> In terms
> of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition as
> different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin where it
> is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is little
> more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>
>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards to
>>> which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that sense
>>> Overground
>>
>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>
> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>
>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>
>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>
> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
> S-Bahn and RER.

S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service, whereas
RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.

Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer to RER.

On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>
>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>> constructed,
>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>
>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>
>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>
>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated metro.
>
> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
> Line is still an Interurban.
>
> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>
>
>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>
> Huh?
>
> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>
> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>
> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
> they've pretty much gone full time.
>
> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>
>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>
>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>> sense Overground
>>>
>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>
>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>
>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>
>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>
>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>> S-Bahn and RER.
>
> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service, whereas
> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>
> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer to RER.
>

I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
Germany, where it means Stadtbahn

On 27/01/2022 19:03, Jeremy Double wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in
>>>>>>>>>>> the know
>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if
>>>>>>>>> WFH continues
>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the
>>>>>>>>> underground?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the
>>>>>>>> name,
>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as
>>>>>>>> LU, LO
>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for
>>>>>>>> each of
>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>
>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>
>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
>>>> and often third rail.
>>>
>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>
>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>
>> Then there is commuter rail, such as NJ Transit Rail or Metro-North
>> Railroad, which can go almost 100 miles out.
>>
>>
>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,  and
>>> largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards to which
>>> the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that sense Overground
>>
>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>
> S-Bahn and RER are very similar, IMO.
>
Agreed.

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 22:04:16 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ssumrf$gm4$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:04:31 on Thu, 27 Jan
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>>>>> better. We can
>>>>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a
>>>>>>>>>> decision
>>>>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>>>>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>>>>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>>>>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>>>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>>>>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>>>>> 16352/>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
>>>>
>>>> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
>>>
>>> Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
>>> that rail is within the zone system.
>>
>> Yes and no. I used to visit somewhere near Vauxhall, and it definitely
>> cost more to get back to the East End via Waterloo Mainline (then
>> probably W&C and Central Line), than exclusively using the tube.
>
>I thought that differential pricing ended many years ago when the zonal
>sydtem superseded it.
>
No, things like e.g. different peak times on NR routes can still make
a difference.

Peak fares
(using
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder)

Baker Street to Harrow - morning and evening
Harrow to Baker Street - morning

Euston to Harrow and Wealdstone - evening
HRW to Euston - morning

Waterloo to Wandsworth Town - morning and evening
Wandsworth Town to Waterloo - morning

Clapham Junction to Wandsworth Town - morning and evening
Wandsworth Town to Clapham Junction - morning and evening

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 22:04:16 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ssumrf$gm4$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:04:31 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>>>>>> better. We can
>>>>>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a
>>>>>>>>>>> decision
>>>>>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>>>>>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>>>>>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>>>>>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>>>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>>>>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>>>>>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>>>>>> 16352/>
>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
>>>>
>>>> Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
>>>> that rail is within the zone system.
>>>
>>> Yes and no. I used to visit somewhere near Vauxhall, and it definitely
>>> cost more to get back to the East End via Waterloo Mainline (then
>>> probably W&C and Central Line), than exclusively using the tube.
>>
>> I thought that differential pricing ended many years ago when the zonal
>> sydtem superseded it.
>>
> No, things like e.g. different peak times on NR routes can still make
> a difference.
>
> Peak fares
> (using
> https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder)
>
> Baker Street to Harrow - morning and evening
> Harrow to Baker Street - morning
>
> Euston to Harrow and Wealdstone - evening
> HRW to Euston - morning
>
> Waterloo to Wandsworth Town - morning and evening
> Wandsworth Town to Waterloo - morning
>
> Clapham Junction to Wandsworth Town - morning and evening
> Wandsworth Town to Clapham Junction - morning and evening
>

Interesting, I thought those had all gone.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>
>>
>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>
>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>
>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>
>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>> S-Bahn and RER.
>
> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service, whereas
> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>
> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer to RER.
>
>

Haven't we already determined in this thread, that only two cities' S-Bahn
networks are 3rd rail?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 01:42:16 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 22:04:16 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ssumrf$gm4$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:04:31 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>>>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name ? Crossrail was much
>>>>>>>>>>>> better. We can
>>>>>>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a
>>>>>>>>>>>> decision
>>>>>>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>>>>>>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>>>>>>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>>>>>>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>>>>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>>>>>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>>>>>>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>>>>>>> 16352/>
>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn?t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
>>>>> that rail is within the zone system.
>>>>
>>>> Yes and no. I used to visit somewhere near Vauxhall, and it definitely
>>>> cost more to get back to the East End via Waterloo Mainline (then
>>>> probably W&C and Central Line), than exclusively using the tube.
>>>
>>> I thought that differential pricing ended many years ago when the zonal
>>> sydtem superseded it.
>>>
>> No, things like e.g. different peak times on NR routes can still make
>> a difference.
>>
>> Peak fares
>> (using
>> https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder)
>>
>> Baker Street to Harrow - morning and evening
>> Harrow to Baker Street - morning
>>
>> Euston to Harrow and Wealdstone - evening
>> HRW to Euston - morning
>>
>> Waterloo to Wandsworth Town - morning and evening
>> Wandsworth Town to Waterloo - morning
>>
>> Clapham Junction to Wandsworth Town - morning and evening
>> Wandsworth Town to Clapham Junction - morning and evening
>>
>
>Interesting, I thought those had all gone.
>
You can also have fun with routes, e.g.
Clapham Junction to Oxford Circus/Zone 1

3-00/2-50 via
Willesden Junction + Bakerloo Line
Shepherds Bush (OSI) + Central Line
Balham (OSI) + Northern Line
(i.e. not changing NR/LU at a London Terminal)

4-80/4-20 via London Terminals

The pretty route[TM] (i.e. the cheap one) in that case is not
inevitably significantly longer in time, in some cases possibly
quicker.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>
>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>
>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>
>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>
>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated metro.
>>
>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>
>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>
>>
>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>
>> Huh?
>>
>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>
>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>
>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>
>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>
>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>>
>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>
>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>
>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>
>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>
>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>
>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>
>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service, whereas
>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>
>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer to RER.
>>
>
> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>
>

No, Stadtbahn is a different thing (tram with city tunnels, or pre-metro);
if it's abbreviated to anything it's "U-Strab".

<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtbahn>

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <rjf6vg9ar9mu2n8vichsu9gl40jdps684d@4ax.com>, at 01:22:02 on
Fri, 28 Jan 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:

>>>> Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
>>>> that rail is within the zone system.
>>>
>>> Yes and no. I used to visit somewhere near Vauxhall, and it definitely
>>> cost more to get back to the East End via Waterloo Mainline (then
>>> probably W&C and Central Line), than exclusively using the tube.
>>
>>I thought that differential pricing ended many years ago when the zonal
>>sydtem superseded it.
>>
>No, things like e.g. different peak times on NR routes can still make
>a difference.

See also the infamous Mayoral promise to freeze fares for London
commuters, which turned out not to include some tickets involving
a leg on NR.

Of course, not everyone has a journey where there's a direct
substitution available (such as Vauxhall to Waterloo).
--
Roland Perry

In message <ssusi6$qvo$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:41:58 on Thu, 27 Jan
2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 27/01/2022 18:04, Tweed wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>>>> better. We can
>>>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not
>>>>>>>>>a decision
>>>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>>>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>>>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>>>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>>>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>>>> 16352/>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
>>>
>>> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
>> Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal
>>system, where
>> that rail is within the zone system. Why would Crossrail be any different?
>> I get the feeling folk are looking for problems that don’t really exist for
>> the vast majority of users. Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of
>> everything?
>>
>All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
>but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.

Why do you need any Maltese Cross facility anyway, just change at
Reading and stay on that train all the way to Liverpool St. (Assuming
there are in fact any trains which are doing that by then).
--
Roland Perry

In message <ssut48$ca$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:51:36 on Thu, 27 Jan 2022,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
><martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 27/01/2022 18:04, Tweed wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>>>>> better. We can
>>>>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not
>>>>>>>>>>a decision
>>>>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>>>>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>>>>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>>>>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>>>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>>>>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>>>>> 16352/>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
>>>>
>>>> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
>>>
>>> Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal
>>>system, where that rail is within the zone system. Why would
>>>Crossrail be any different? I get the feeling folk are looking for
>>>problems that don’t really exist for the vast majority of users.
>>>Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of everything?
>>>
>> All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
>> but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
>
>Well does it have a separate gate line to stations with which it shares
>with the conventional underground? If not, how will they know how you get
>from one NR terminus to another?

The only changes his trip involve is GWR-EL at Reading, and EL-GA at
Liverpool St.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ssut48$ca$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:51:36 on Thu, 27 Jan 2022,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 27/01/2022 18:04, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>>>>>> better. We can
>>>>>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not
>>>>>>>>>>> a decision
>>>>>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>>>>>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>>>>>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>>>>>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>>>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>>>>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>>>>>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>>>>>> 16352/>
>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
>>>>
>>>> Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal
>>>> system, where that rail is within the zone system. Why would
>>>> Crossrail be any different? I get the feeling folk are looking for
>>>> problems that don’t really exist for the vast majority of users.
>>>> Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of everything?
>>>>
>>> All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
>>> but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
>>
>> Well does it have a separate gate line to stations with which it shares
>> with the conventional underground? If not, how will they know how you get
>> from one NR terminus to another?
>
> The only changes his trip involve is GWR-EL at Reading, and EL-GA at
> Liverpool St.

I was thinking more in the general case than that specific journey. Unless
EL is separately gated from shared underground stations I can’t see how
anyone could control how you get from one NR terminus to another.

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 19:41:58 +0000, martin.coffee wrote:
> All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
> but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.

From what's been said, the maltese cross is irrelevant - that allows you
to use the Underground. As it's an all-NR journey, you need to consult
the routing guide - which probably hasn't been updated to show the new
line yet. But if it's a sensible route to use it should be included.

Mike

On 2022-01-27 23:08:58 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:

> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>
>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>
>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>
>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>
>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to an
>> S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated metro.
>
> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
> Line is still an Interurban.

It is a collection of formerly disconnected suburban lines (the PRR and
Reading lines) with through running across the networks enabled by a
city centre tunnel. That's pretty much exactly how the RER in Paris
was created, and similar to both Crossrail and Thameslink.

> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.

Lots of cities have metro systems comprising of lines of different
technology and character where throguh-running is not possible, but are
still in essence metros. The DLR in London, for example, is in all of
its characteristics a metro system, separate from the tube and
subsurface lines. Paris has both rubber tyred and steel wheel lines,
and a few driverless lines, while other lines are manually driven. New
York has the IRT lines that can not accommodate rolling stock from the
BMT and IND lines. Just because a line uses a different system,
doesn't mean it might not also provide a metro type service.

>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>
> Huh?
>
> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>
> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>
> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
> they've pretty much gone full time.
>
> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.

While the characteristic of peak hours only, one way tidal flow is not
a universal characteristic, it is a feature of several systems, and in
some discussion of the systems in operation, some people do make the
distinction between commuter rail, with this peculiar characteristic,
and regional or suburban rail, to imply a more consistent service
pattern. I just thought it was worth mentioning this in order to avoid
the potential for misunderstanding how terms are used. For example,
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_rail_in_North_America

"Many, but not all, newer commuter railways offer service during peak
times only, with trains into the central business district during
morning rush hour and returning to the outer areas during the evening
rush hour."

>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>
>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard, and
>>>> largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards to which
>>>> the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that sense Overground
>>>
>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>
>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>
>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>
>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>
>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>> S-Bahn and RER.
>
> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
> whereas RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.

There are something like 16 S-Bahn branded networks operating in
Germany (depending on whether you count the cross-border Basel and
Satzburg routes). Only two of them have this characteristic (Berlin
and Hamburg), the remainder are conventional mainline rail, standard
(for Germany) OHLE powered, and largely indistinguishable from RER type
services.

> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer to RER.

Along with Bremen, Rostock, Hannover, Magdeburg, Dresden, Köln,
Rhein-Ruhr, Rhein-Main, Rhien-Neckar, Nürnberg, Stuttgart, München,
Basel and Satlzburg, plus a number of S-Bahn branded systems in CH and
At.

Robin

On 2022-01-27 23:16:16 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:

> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>
>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>
>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>
>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>
>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to an
>>> S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated metro.
>>
>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>
>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>
>>
>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>
>> Huh?
>>
>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>
>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>
>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>
>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>
>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>>
>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard, and
>>>>> largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards to which
>>>>> the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that sense Overground
>>>>
>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>
>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>
>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>
>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>
>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>
>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>> whereas RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>
>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer to RER.
>>
>
> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn

Historically S-Bahn was intended to mean Schnellbahn, but it has come
to be a term in its own right, with no consistent "meaning". In most
places, though, a Stadtbahn is something akin to the Belgian concept of
a pre-metro, where a tram network has been built out with significant
off-street running, often in tunnel, and often with high platforms.
The Manchester Metrolink has a lot of the characteristics of a
Stadtbahn. It's essentially a half-way house between tram and metro,
with some characteristics of each.

Robin

"Bob" <email@domain.com> wrote in message news:st0dgv$pna$1@dont-email.me...
>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and from
>>> the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>
>> Huh?
>>
>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter Rail,
>> the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run in both
>> directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these services
>> run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>
>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>
>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>
>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>
> While the characteristic of peak hours only, one way tidal flow is not a
> universal characteristic, it is a feature of several systems, and in some
> discussion of the systems in operation, some people do make the
> distinction between commuter rail, with this peculiar characteristic, and
> regional or suburban rail, to imply a more consistent service pattern. I
> just thought it was worth mentioning this in order to avoid the potential
> for misunderstanding how terms are used. For example, from
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_rail_in_North_America

If the trains have to run from the suburbs to the city in the morning, what
is the disadvantage of them carrying passengers in the opposite direction
(city to suburbs) rather than running lots of trains as ECS in one direction
and passenger-carrying in the other?

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Huh?
>
> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>
> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>
> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
> they've pretty much gone full time.
>
> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.

Those are rail systems. In other places, commuter rail is a few passenger
services on an existing freight line, which has use of the line the rest of
the time. For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WES_Commuter_Rail
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_City_Star
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sounder_commuter_rail
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altamont_Corridor_Express

There is often a wish to run more services, but they're constrained by the
freight line owning the route and not wishing to lose any capacity, and the
configuration of the freight line (at-grade crossings, perhaps needing heavy
equipment for crashworthiness with freight trains)

Some systems (eg Caltrain) have gradually evolved from a primarily freight
route to one focused on full-time passenger operation, with changes to
infrastructure (electrification, crossings) and stock (lighter trains).
That has relegated freight (if any) to being the second class citizen on the
line, rather than the primary user.

Theo

Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>
>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>>
>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated metro.
>>>
>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>
>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>
>>>
>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>
>>> Huh?
>>>
>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>
>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>
>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>
>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>
>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>>>
>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>
>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>
>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>
>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>
>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>
>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service, whereas
>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>
>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer to RER.
>>
>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn

The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
"Schnellbahn". During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
was run by East Berlin, U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).

> No, Stadtbahn is a different thing (tram with city tunnels, or pre-metro);
> if it's abbreviated to anything it's "U-Strab".
>
> <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtbahn>

this is what I meant by the "watering-down" of the S-Bahn brand:
In the past, S-Bahn was a brand of DB whereas U-Bahn, Stadtbahn and
Straßenbahn were run by communal operators.

Now, the former 'DB' brands have been opened to the competition, and
Karlsruhe decided to use the "S-Bahn" brand for their tram-trains which
are more Stadtbahn.

On 28/01/2022 06:08, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ssusi6$qvo$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:41:58 on Thu, 27 Jan
> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>> On 27/01/2022 18:04, Tweed wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>>>>> better. We can
>>>>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not
>>>>>>>>>> a decision
>>>>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will
>>>>>>>>> refer to it
>>>>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth
>>>>>>>>> Line. It's
>>>>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used
>>>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause,
>>>>>>>>> given
>>>>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be
>>>>>>>>> valid.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state.  As I said it'll
>>>>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>>>>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 16352/>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> In summary.  No one has the slightest idea.
>>>>
>>>> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
>>>  Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal
>>> system, where
>>> that rail is within the zone system. Why would Crossrail be any
>>> different?
>>> I get the feeling folk are looking for problems that don’t really
>>> exist for
>>> the vast majority of users. Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that
>>> true of
>>> everything?
>>>
>> All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on
>> Crossrail but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
>
> Why do you need any Maltese Cross facility anyway, just change at
> Reading and stay on that train all the way to Liverpool St. (Assuming
> there are in fact any trains which are doing that by then).
Presumably I would still need the Maltese Cross at Liverpool Street? If
Cross Country Trains get their rest day working agreement signed in time
I'm more likely to travel east bound.

On 2022-01-28 09:48:33 +0000, NY said:

> "Bob" <email@domain.com> wrote in message news:st0dgv$pna$1@dont-email.me...
>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>
>>> Huh?
>>>
>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>
>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>
>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>
>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>
>> While the characteristic of peak hours only, one way tidal flow is not
>> a universal characteristic, it is a feature of several systems, and in
>> some discussion of the systems in operation, some people do make the
>> distinction between commuter rail, with this peculiar characteristic,
>> and regional or suburban rail, to imply a more consistent service
>> pattern. I just thought it was worth mentioning this in order to avoid
>> the potential for misunderstanding how terms are used. For example,
>> from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_rail_in_North_America
>
> If the trains have to run from the suburbs to the city in the morning,
> what is the disadvantage of them carrying passengers in the opposite
> direction (city to suburbs) rather than running lots of trains as ECS
> in one direction and passenger-carrying in the other?

If you would believe it, the approach is usually to have as many train
sets as there are morning and evening services, with each one spending
the night in a siding at the end of the line, then running one service
to the city, where it then parks in a siding and returns to the suburb
in the evening. Part of the reason for this is that these kinds of
services often run over single track with significant freight use, so
there are simply no paths for them to do anything mroe than one run in
in the morning and one out in the evening.

Robin

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <rjf6vg9ar9mu2n8vichsu9gl40jdps684d@4ax.com>, at 01:22:02 on
> Fri, 28 Jan 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
> remarked:
>
>>>>> Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal system, where
>>>>> that rail is within the zone system.
>>>>
>>>> Yes and no. I used to visit somewhere near Vauxhall, and it definitely
>>>> cost more to get back to the East End via Waterloo Mainline (then
>>>> probably W&C and Central Line), than exclusively using the tube.
>>>
>>> I thought that differential pricing ended many years ago when the zonal
>>> sydtem superseded it.
>>>
>> No, things like e.g. different peak times on NR routes can still make
>> a difference.
>
> See also the infamous Mayoral promise to freeze fares for London
> commuters, which turned out not to include some tickets involving
> a leg on NR.

Did he not always qualify that he would be freezing TfL fares?

>
> Of course, not everyone has a journey where there's a direct
> substitution available (such as Vauxhall to Waterloo).

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ssut48$ca$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:51:36 on Thu, 27 Jan 2022,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 27/01/2022 18:04, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ssujc3$klm$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:06 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 14:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:53:07 +0000,
>>>>>>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 13:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ssu4bt$phe$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:14 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>>>>>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>>>>>> better. We can
>>>>>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not
>>>>>>>>>>> a decision
>>>>>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it
>>>>>>>>>> as Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's
>>>>>>>>>> like the Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be
>>>>>>>>>> officially called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben
>>>>>>>>>> (yes, I know that's the name of the hour bell).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given
>>>>>>>>>> that it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What tickets might not be valid?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's what no one appears to be willing to state. As I said it'll
>>>>>>>> become apparent when the your ticket fails to operate the game.
>>>>>>> You might be interested in this discussion:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-will-crossrail-tickets-work.2
>>>>>>> 16352/>
>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In summary. No one has the slightest idea.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does "no-one" include the Mayor?
>>>>
>>>> Doesn’t all the existing heavy rail work within the TFL zonal
>>>> system, where that rail is within the zone system. Why would
>>>> Crossrail be any different? I get the feeling folk are looking for
>>>> problems that don’t really exist for the vast majority of users.
>>>> Sure, edge case exist, but isn’t that true of everything?
>>>>
>>> All I want to know is if I can use my Maltese Cross ticket on Crossrail
>>> but I've found nothing which confirms one way or the other.
>>
>> Well does it have a separate gate line to stations with which it shares
>> with the conventional underground? If not, how will they know how you get
>> from one NR terminus to another?
>
> The only changes his trip involve is GWR-EL at Reading, and EL-GA at
> Liverpool St.

There will be gate lines between them at Liverpool St.

On 28/01/2022 02:50, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 01:42:16 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 22:04:16 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I thought that differential pricing ended many years ago when the zonal
>>>> sydtem superseded it.
>>>>
>>> No, things like e.g. different peak times on NR routes can still make
>>> a difference.
>>>
>>> Peak fares
>>> (using
>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder)
>>>
>>> Baker Street to Harrow - morning and evening
>>> Harrow to Baker Street - morning
>>>
>>> Euston to Harrow and Wealdstone - evening
>>> HRW to Euston - morning

That may be because trains into Euston are full in mornings only, and
trains out fill in evenings only, rather than a NR/TfL distinction.

>>> Waterloo to Wandsworth Town - morning and evening
>>> Wandsworth Town to Waterloo - morning
>>>
>>> Clapham Junction to Wandsworth Town - morning and evening
>>> Wandsworth Town to Clapham Junction - morning and evening
>>>
>>
>> Interesting, I thought those had all gone.
>>
> You can also have fun with routes, e.g.
> Clapham Junction to Oxford Circus/Zone 1
>
> 3-00/2-50 via
> Willesden Junction + Bakerloo Line
> Shepherds Bush (OSI) + Central Line
> Balham (OSI) + Northern Line
> (i.e. not changing NR/LU at a London Terminal)

I never thought of Balham as a gateway to the North.

> 4-80/4-20 via London Terminals
>
> The pretty route[TM] (i.e. the cheap one) in that case is not
> inevitably significantly longer in time, in some cases possibly
> quicker.
>