On 25/03/2022 13:18, Recliner wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:30 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:48, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK on the
>>>>>> same basis?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I would not be surprised to find out that there are exceptions for
>>>>> service staff on cruise liners. Their base pay is lousy, and all parties
>>>>> know that. yet they can reap a windfall in tips.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's not really a windfall — it's just making up for their very low pay.
>>>> There's usually a suggested daily rate for tips which passengers put in a
>>>> special envelope at the end of the cruise. They can, of course, pay a
>>>> higher or lower amount, at their discretion.
>>>>
>>>> But the cruise ships I go on (Silversea and Noble Caledonia) include all
>>>> tips in the fare.
>>>
>>> In that case, in what sense are they tips? They’re can’t reflect the
>>> quality of service offered by any particular crew member, and they aren’t,
>>> presumably, voluntary on the passenger’s part, are they?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> There's presumably nothing to say that passengers can't still tip where
>> they feel it's appropriate; but this removes any feeling of compulsion to
>> tip for everything, American-style.
>>
>> I've just been on a (mostly) all-inclusive cruise, where any additional
>> charges which you did incur get charged to your cabin, so on board is
>> cashless; whenever we did want to tip we didn't usually have any cash with
>> us!
>
> I think most cruise ships are cashless, even ones where you have to pay for lots of extras. They're just charged to your
> room account (you normally have to present a credit card early in the voyage) and you may have credits applied already.

On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>>>>
>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>
>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>
>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>
>>>
>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>
>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar roles on
>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>> than port-to-port.
>
> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?

On 25/03/2022 14:08, Recliner wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 14:00:26 +0000, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>
>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>
>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>
>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar roles on
>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>
>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?
>>
>> I suppose a small minority of their passengers do actually want to go
>>from the US to England, and have the time and money to do it in style.
>
> They do it for the 'Cunard experience', or, in a few cases, because they can't/won't fly.
>
> There are other ways of crossing the Atlantic by ship, but only the QM2 does regular voyages in both directions.

You can book on some freighters, if the captain will allow it or their
schedule lines up with yours. The on-board amenities can be rather
streamlined, if we compare them with the Queens, but they are
comfortable enough and will normally have wait staff.

I've heard of some cases where such ships might have a gym and swimming
pool.

On 22/03/2022 22:55, ColinR wrote:
> On 22/03/2022 21:09, Recliner wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others
>>>>>>>> no. In
>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley
>>>>>>>> and food
>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that
>>>>>>> helps
>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this
>>>>>>> diversion
>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their
>>>>>>> sleeping
>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't
>>>>>> find any
>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>> route,
>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>
>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>
>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great
>>>> fuss
>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal
>>> because
>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have, it appears,
>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>
>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what
>>> constitutes
>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum
>>> wage is
>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and
>>> immigration
>>> services?
>>>
>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the
>>> minimum
>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>> international
>>> maritime law.
>>
>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably, have control
>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>> ports.
>>
>> P&O Ferries were the anomaly, in that they retained UK crews, paid UK
>> wages. P&O cruise liners haven't done that for many years. Here's a
>> report
>> from a decade ago:
>> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/jul/01/arcadia-cruise-ship-indian-crew>
>>
>
> P&O (when a discrete company rather than the current split apart
> company) have always employed foreign seafarers, many of them Goanese.
> This a relic from the days of the Raj!
>

I've also seen ships where many of the crew have been Indonesian.

On 25/03/2022 16:01, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>
>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar roles on
>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>
>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?
>>
>> What other Ocean Liners are there and does she still do that?
>>
>
> There aren't any other ocean liners, but many of the cruise ships do a
> couple of re-positioning trans-Atlantic crossings a year. For example, some
> operate in the Med for the summer, and Caribbean for the winter. In
> between, they provide journey opportunities from, say, Barcelona to Fort
> Lauderdale. There are similar journeys from Japan to Alaska and on to
> Vancouver. These often provide relatively low cost passenger journeys,
> because of the number of sea days.
>
> I'm doing one next year on one of the small cruise ships, from Southampton
> via Liverpool, Belfast and Greenland to Quebec City.
>

On 25/03/2022 16:57, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 24/03/2022 09:26, Recliner wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 22/03/2022 21:48, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22
>>>>>>>>> Mar
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>> others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the
>>>>>>>>>>>> galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two
>>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if
>>>>>>>>>>> that helps
>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before
>>>>>>>>>>> this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their
>>>>>>>>>>> sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't
>>>>>>>>>> find any
>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is
>>>>>>>>> the only
>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a
>>>>>>>> great fuss
>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A
>>>>>>>> ship on
>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to
>>>>>>>> allow
>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is
>>>>>>> legal because
>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have, it
>>>>>>> appears,
>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably
>>>>>>> Irish
>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what
>>>>>>> constitutes
>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK
>>>>>>> minimum wage is
>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could
>>>>>>> they be
>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and
>>>>>>> immigration
>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the
>>>>>>> minimum
>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the
>>>>>> many
>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels
>>>>>> sailing on
>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably, have
>>>>>> control
>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to
>>>>>> non-UK
>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A
>>>>> ferry by
>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if
>>>>> there is no
>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal
>>>>> drafting
>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale
>>>>> of ferry
>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>
>>>> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK
>>>> on the
>>>> same basis?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I would not be surprised to find out that there are exceptions for
>>> service staff on cruise liners. Their base pay is lousy, and all parties
>>> know that. yet they can reap a windfall in tips.
>>>
>>
>> It's not really a windfall — it's just making up for their very low pay.
>> There's usually a suggested daily rate for tips which passengers put in a
>> special envelope at the end of the cruise. They can, of course, pay a
>> higher or lower amount, at their discretion.
>>
>> But the cruise ships I go on (Silversea and Noble Caledonia) include all
>> tips in the fare.
>>
>
> Perhaps windfall wasn't the right word to use. But it still is not bad
> at £2,000-3,000 per month, considering that they pay little to nothing
> for accommodation and food.
>
> They could also wind up with a passenger who slips them a few on the
> side, though I don't know if that is allowed on all ships. Anyway, there
> is no guarantee for that.
>
> I saw one documentary about service staff on board a ship, and I think
> his base salary was about £47, with the rest coming in tips.
>
> I wonder if those UK based are subject to tax under the employer or if
> they can claim self-employment, in which case their liabilities are lower.

On 25/03/2022 16:14, ColinR wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 15:14, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue,
>>>>>>>>>>> 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I
>>>>>>>>>>>> can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is
>>>>>>>>>>> the only
>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a
>>>>>>>>>> great fuss
>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A
>>>>>>>>>> ship on
>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused
>>>>>>>>>> to allow
>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is
>>>>>>>>> legal because
>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have, it
>>>>>>>>> appears,
>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably
>>>>>>>>> Irish
>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what
>>>>>>>>> constitutes
>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK
>>>>>>>>> minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port
>>>>>>>>> could they be
>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and
>>>>>>>>> immigration
>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of
>>>>>>>>> the minimum
>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to
>>>>>>>> the many
>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels
>>>>>>>> sailing on
>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably,
>>>>>>>> have control
>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to
>>>>>>>> non-UK
>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A
>>>>>>> ferry by
>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if
>>>>>>> there is no
>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal
>>>>>>> drafting
>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the
>>>>>>> sale of ferry
>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts".
>>>>>> Really??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St
>>>>>> Peterport /
>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes
>>>>>> affected by
>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O
>>>>>> used to
>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include
>>>>> regularly
>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter
>>>>> could
>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>
>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go
>>>>> anywhere
>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King
>>>>> worker
>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the
>>>>> ferry is
>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly
>>>> itinerary
>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar
>>>> roles on
>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips,
>>>> rather
>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>
>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York
>>> and Southampton?
>>
>> What other Ocean Liners are there and does she still do that?
>>
>
> Ahh, depends on your dictionary but a common definition of liner is "a
> ship belonging to a regular line" or similar. If the regular line is
> across an ocean then the ship is an ocean liner. The "regular" bit means
> following a timetable. It does NOT mean that it is a full passenger ship
> - in days of yore there were many cargo liners - and they still exist.
>
> https://www.cargoshipvoyages.com
>
> So, yes, ocean liners do still exist!
>
> OK, maybe I am being pedantic but....
>

On 25/03/2022 17:02, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue,
>>>>>>>>>> 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if
>>>>>>>>>>>> that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before
>>>>>>>>>>>> this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are
>>>>>>>>>>>> their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I
>>>>>>>>>>> can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is
>>>>>>>>>> the only
>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a
>>>>>>>>> great fuss
>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A
>>>>>>>>> ship on
>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused
>>>>>>>>> to allow
>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is
>>>>>>>> legal because
>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have, it
>>>>>>>> appears,
>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably
>>>>>>>> Irish
>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what
>>>>>>>> constitutes
>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK
>>>>>>>> minimum wage is
>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could
>>>>>>>> they be
>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and
>>>>>>>> immigration
>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of
>>>>>>>> the minimum
>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the
>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels
>>>>>>> sailing on
>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably, have
>>>>>>> control
>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to
>>>>>>> non-UK
>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A
>>>>>> ferry by
>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if
>>>>>> there is no
>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal
>>>>>> drafting
>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale
>>>>>> of ferry
>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts".
>>>>> Really??
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St
>>>>> Peterport /
>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>
>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes
>>>>> affected by
>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter
>>>> could
>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>
>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go
>>>> anywhere
>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King
>>>> worker
>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar
>>> roles on
>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>>> than port-to-port.
>>
>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York
>> and Southampton?
>
> QM2 has done global cruises, IIRC.

On 25/03/2022 17:15, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 16:14, ColinR wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 15:14, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is
>>>>>>>>>>>> the only
>>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a
>>>>>>>>>>> great fuss
>>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut.
>>>>>>>>>>> A ship on
>>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused
>>>>>>>>>>> to allow
>>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is
>>>>>>>>>> legal because
>>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have, it
>>>>>>>>>> appears,
>>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others,
>>>>>>>>>> notably Irish
>>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue
>>>>>>>>>> what constitutes
>>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK
>>>>>>>>>> minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port
>>>>>>>>>> could they be
>>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs
>>>>>>>>>> and immigration
>>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of
>>>>>>>>>> the minimum
>>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to
>>>>>>>>> the many
>>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels
>>>>>>>>> sailing on
>>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably,
>>>>>>>>> have control
>>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to
>>>>>>>>> non-UK
>>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports?
>>>>>>>> A ferry by
>>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if
>>>>>>>> there is no
>>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of
>>>>>>>> legal drafting
>>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the
>>>>>>>> sale of ferry
>>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end
>>>>>>> ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St
>>>>>>> Peterport /
>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes
>>>>>>> affected by
>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O
>>>>>>> used to
>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include
>>>>>> regularly
>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal
>>>>>> drafter could
>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go
>>>>>> anywhere
>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger
>>>>>> King worker
>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the
>>>>>> ferry is
>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly
>>>>> itinerary
>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar
>>>>> roles on
>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips,
>>>>> rather
>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>
>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York
>>>> and Southampton?
>>>
>>> What other Ocean Liners are there and does she still do that?
>>>
>>
>> Ahh, depends on your dictionary but a common definition of liner is "a
>> ship belonging to a regular line" or similar. If the regular line is
>> across an ocean then the ship is an ocean liner. The "regular" bit
>> means following a timetable. It does NOT mean that it is a full
>> passenger ship - in days of yore there were many cargo liners - and
>> they still exist.
>>
>> https://www.cargoshipvoyages.com
>>
>> So, yes, ocean liners do still exist!
>>
>> OK, maybe I am being pedantic but....
>>
>
> Good point, many container ships work on regular timetabled routes, so
> those would be liners. Though I don't think many have passenger
> accommodation.
>
Some do. If they are proprely crewed and have an extra cabin available,
then it is a little extra revenue for the ship.

On 25/03/2022 17:15, ColinR wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 16:57, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 24/03/2022 09:26, Recliner wrote:
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:48, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue,
>>>>>>>>>> 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if
>>>>>>>>>>>> that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before
>>>>>>>>>>>> this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are
>>>>>>>>>>>> their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I
>>>>>>>>>>> can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is
>>>>>>>>>> the only
>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a
>>>>>>>>> great fuss
>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A
>>>>>>>>> ship on
>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused
>>>>>>>>> to allow
>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is
>>>>>>>> legal because
>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have, it
>>>>>>>> appears,
>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably
>>>>>>>> Irish
>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what
>>>>>>>> constitutes
>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK
>>>>>>>> minimum wage is
>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could
>>>>>>>> they be
>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and
>>>>>>>> immigration
>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of
>>>>>>>> the minimum
>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the
>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels
>>>>>>> sailing on
>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably, have
>>>>>>> control
>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to
>>>>>>> non-UK
>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A
>>>>>> ferry by
>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if
>>>>>> there is no
>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal
>>>>>> drafting
>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale
>>>>>> of ferry
>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK
>>>>> on the
>>>>> same basis?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I would not be surprised to find out that there are exceptions for
>>>> service staff on cruise liners. Their base pay is lousy, and all
>>>> parties
>>>> know that. yet they can reap a windfall in tips.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's not really a windfall — it's just making up for their very low pay.
>>> There's usually a suggested daily rate for tips which passengers put
>>> in a
>>> special envelope at the end of the cruise. They can, of course, pay a
>>> higher or lower amount, at their discretion.
>>>
>>> But the cruise ships I go on (Silversea and Noble Caledonia) include all
>>> tips in the fare.
>>>
>>
>> Perhaps windfall wasn't the right word to use. But it still is not bad
>> at £2,000-3,000 per month, considering that they pay little to nothing
>> for accommodation and food.
>>
>> They could also wind up with a passenger who slips them a few on the
>> side, though I don't know if that is allowed on all ships. Anyway,
>> there is no guarantee for that.
>>
>> I saw one documentary about service staff on board a ship, and I think
>> his base salary was about £47, with the rest coming in tips.
>>
>> I wonder if those UK based are subject to tax under the employer or if
>> they can claim self-employment, in which case their liabilities are
>> lower.
>
> Not sure if it still the case, but it was. If a UK employee is outside
> the UK at midnight for 180 days or more then no UK tax is paid. Even
> sailing from Dover at 2355 is classed as being outside the UK if sailing
> to a non-UK port. Many of the seafarers affected by those P&O action
> will be non-taxpayers (not so for Cairnryan staff).
>

On 25/03/2022 17:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 17:02, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue,
>>>>>>>>>>> 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I
>>>>>>>>>>>> can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is
>>>>>>>>>>> the only
>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a
>>>>>>>>>> great fuss
>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A
>>>>>>>>>> ship on
>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused
>>>>>>>>>> to allow
>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is
>>>>>>>>> legal because
>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have, it
>>>>>>>>> appears,
>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably
>>>>>>>>> Irish
>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what
>>>>>>>>> constitutes
>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK
>>>>>>>>> minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port
>>>>>>>>> could they be
>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and
>>>>>>>>> immigration
>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of
>>>>>>>>> the minimum
>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to
>>>>>>>> the many
>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels
>>>>>>>> sailing on
>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably,
>>>>>>>> have control
>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to
>>>>>>>> non-UK
>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A
>>>>>>> ferry by
>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if
>>>>>>> there is no
>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal
>>>>>>> drafting
>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the
>>>>>>> sale of ferry
>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts".
>>>>>> Really??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St
>>>>>> Peterport /
>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes
>>>>>> affected by
>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O
>>>>>> used to
>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include
>>>>> regularly
>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter
>>>>> could
>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>
>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go
>>>>> anywhere
>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King
>>>>> worker
>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the
>>>>> ferry is
>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly
>>>> itinerary
>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar
>>>> roles on
>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips,
>>>> rather
>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>
>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York
>>> and Southampton?
>>
>> QM2 has done global cruises, IIRC.
>
> Point of the QM2, like the QE2 before, is that she alternates being a
> cruise ship and a liner.
>

On 25/03/2022 17:22, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 17:15, ColinR wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 16:57, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> On 24/03/2022 09:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:48, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue,
>>>>>>>>>>> 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I
>>>>>>>>>>>> can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is
>>>>>>>>>>> the only
>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a
>>>>>>>>>> great fuss
>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A
>>>>>>>>>> ship on
>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused
>>>>>>>>>> to allow
>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is
>>>>>>>>> legal because
>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have, it
>>>>>>>>> appears,
>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably
>>>>>>>>> Irish
>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what
>>>>>>>>> constitutes
>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK
>>>>>>>>> minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port
>>>>>>>>> could they be
>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and
>>>>>>>>> immigration
>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of
>>>>>>>>> the minimum
>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to
>>>>>>>> the many
>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels
>>>>>>>> sailing on
>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably,
>>>>>>>> have control
>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to
>>>>>>>> non-UK
>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A
>>>>>>> ferry by
>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if
>>>>>>> there is no
>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal
>>>>>>> drafting
>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the
>>>>>>> sale of ferry
>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK
>>>>>> on the
>>>>>> same basis?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I would not be surprised to find out that there are exceptions for
>>>>> service staff on cruise liners. Their base pay is lousy, and all
>>>>> parties
>>>>> know that. yet they can reap a windfall in tips.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's not really a windfall — it's just making up for their very low
>>>> pay.
>>>> There's usually a suggested daily rate for tips which passengers put
>>>> in a
>>>> special envelope at the end of the cruise. They can, of course, pay a
>>>> higher or lower amount, at their discretion.
>>>>
>>>> But the cruise ships I go on (Silversea and Noble Caledonia) include
>>>> all
>>>> tips in the fare.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps windfall wasn't the right word to use. But it still is not
>>> bad at £2,000-3,000 per month, considering that they pay little to
>>> nothing for accommodation and food.
>>>
>>> They could also wind up with a passenger who slips them a few on the
>>> side, though I don't know if that is allowed on all ships. Anyway,
>>> there is no guarantee for that.
>>>
>>> I saw one documentary about service staff on board a ship, and I
>>> think his base salary was about £47, with the rest coming in tips.
>>>
>>> I wonder if those UK based are subject to tax under the employer or
>>> if they can claim self-employment, in which case their liabilities
>>> are lower.
>>
>> Not sure if it still the case, but it was. If a UK employee is outside
>> the UK at midnight for 180 days or more then no UK tax is paid. Even
>> sailing from Dover at 2355 is classed as being outside the UK if
>> sailing to a non-UK port. Many of the seafarers affected by those P&O
>> action will be non-taxpayers (not so for Cairnryan staff).
>>
>
> In the case of Dover-Calais, would they be liable for French tax then?
>

On 25/03/2022 17:22, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 17:15, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 16:14, ColinR wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2022 15:14, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been
>>>>>>>>>>>> a great fuss
>>>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut.
>>>>>>>>>>>> A ship on
>>>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and
>>>>>>>>>>>> refused to allow
>>>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is
>>>>>>>>>>> legal because
>>>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have,
>>>>>>>>>>> it appears,
>>>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others,
>>>>>>>>>>> notably Irish
>>>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue
>>>>>>>>>>> what constitutes
>>>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK
>>>>>>>>>>> minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port
>>>>>>>>>>> could they be
>>>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs
>>>>>>>>>>> and immigration
>>>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of
>>>>>>>>>>> the minimum
>>>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to
>>>>>>>>>> the many
>>>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels
>>>>>>>>>> sailing on
>>>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably,
>>>>>>>>>> have control
>>>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing
>>>>>>>>>> to non-UK
>>>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports?
>>>>>>>>> A ferry by
>>>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if
>>>>>>>>> there is no
>>>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of
>>>>>>>>> legal drafting
>>>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the
>>>>>>>>> sale of ferry
>>>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end
>>>>>>>> ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen
>>>>>>>> calls on
>>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St
>>>>>>>> Peterport /
>>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes
>>>>>>>> affected by
>>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O
>>>>>>>> used to
>>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include
>>>>>>> regularly
>>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal
>>>>>>> drafter could
>>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for
>>>>>>> go anywhere
>>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger
>>>>>>> King worker
>>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the
>>>>>>> ferry is
>>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly
>>>>>> itinerary
>>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar
>>>>>> roles on
>>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips,
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>>
>>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New
>>>>> York and Southampton?
>>>>
>>>> What other Ocean Liners are there and does she still do that?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ahh, depends on your dictionary but a common definition of liner is
>>> "a ship belonging to a regular line" or similar. If the regular line
>>> is across an ocean then the ship is an ocean liner. The "regular" bit
>>> means following a timetable. It does NOT mean that it is a full
>>> passenger ship - in days of yore there were many cargo liners - and
>>> they still exist.
>>>
>>> https://www.cargoshipvoyages.com
>>>
>>> So, yes, ocean liners do still exist!
>>>
>>> OK, maybe I am being pedantic but....
>>>
>>
>> Good point, many container ships work on regular timetabled routes, so
>> those would be liners. Though I don't think many have passenger
>> accommodation.
>>
> Some do. If they are proprely crewed and have an extra cabin available,
> then it is a little extra revenue for the ship.

On 25/03/2022 17:24, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 17:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 17:02, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is
>>>>>>>>>>>> the only
>>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a
>>>>>>>>>>> great fuss
>>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut.
>>>>>>>>>>> A ship on
>>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused
>>>>>>>>>>> to allow
>>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is
>>>>>>>>>> legal because
>>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have, it
>>>>>>>>>> appears,
>>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others,
>>>>>>>>>> notably Irish
>>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue
>>>>>>>>>> what constitutes
>>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK
>>>>>>>>>> minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port
>>>>>>>>>> could they be
>>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs
>>>>>>>>>> and immigration
>>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of
>>>>>>>>>> the minimum
>>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to
>>>>>>>>> the many
>>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels
>>>>>>>>> sailing on
>>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably,
>>>>>>>>> have control
>>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to
>>>>>>>>> non-UK
>>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports?
>>>>>>>> A ferry by
>>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if
>>>>>>>> there is no
>>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of
>>>>>>>> legal drafting
>>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the
>>>>>>>> sale of ferry
>>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end
>>>>>>> ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St
>>>>>>> Peterport /
>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes
>>>>>>> affected by
>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O
>>>>>>> used to
>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include
>>>>>> regularly
>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal
>>>>>> drafter could
>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go
>>>>>> anywhere
>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger
>>>>>> King worker
>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the
>>>>>> ferry is
>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly
>>>>> itinerary
>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar
>>>>> roles on
>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips,
>>>>> rather
>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>
>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York
>>>> and Southampton?
>>>
>>> QM2 has done global cruises, IIRC.
>>
>> Point of the QM2, like the QE2 before, is that she alternates being a
>> cruise ship and a liner.
>>
>
> I wonder what it was like to travel on the Cunard or White Star Lines.
>
> (Please, no remarks about RMS Titanic or RMS Lusitania as those were
> real tragedies.)

On 25/03/2022 17:27, ColinR wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 17:22, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 17:15, ColinR wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2022 16:57, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>> On 24/03/2022 09:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:48, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is
>>>>>>>>>>>> the only
>>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a
>>>>>>>>>>> great fuss
>>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut.
>>>>>>>>>>> A ship on
>>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused
>>>>>>>>>>> to allow
>>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is
>>>>>>>>>> legal because
>>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have, it
>>>>>>>>>> appears,
>>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others,
>>>>>>>>>> notably Irish
>>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue
>>>>>>>>>> what constitutes
>>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK
>>>>>>>>>> minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port
>>>>>>>>>> could they be
>>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs
>>>>>>>>>> and immigration
>>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of
>>>>>>>>>> the minimum
>>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to
>>>>>>>>> the many
>>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels
>>>>>>>>> sailing on
>>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably,
>>>>>>>>> have control
>>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to
>>>>>>>>> non-UK
>>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports?
>>>>>>>> A ferry by
>>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if
>>>>>>>> there is no
>>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of
>>>>>>>> legal drafting
>>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the
>>>>>>>> sale of ferry
>>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the
>>>>>>> UK on the
>>>>>>> same basis?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would not be surprised to find out that there are exceptions for
>>>>>> service staff on cruise liners. Their base pay is lousy, and all
>>>>>> parties
>>>>>> know that. yet they can reap a windfall in tips.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not really a windfall — it's just making up for their very low
>>>>> pay.
>>>>> There's usually a suggested daily rate for tips which passengers
>>>>> put in a
>>>>> special envelope at the end of the cruise. They can, of course, pay a
>>>>> higher or lower amount, at their discretion.
>>>>>
>>>>> But the cruise ships I go on (Silversea and Noble Caledonia)
>>>>> include all
>>>>> tips in the fare.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps windfall wasn't the right word to use. But it still is not
>>>> bad at £2,000-3,000 per month, considering that they pay little to
>>>> nothing for accommodation and food.
>>>>
>>>> They could also wind up with a passenger who slips them a few on the
>>>> side, though I don't know if that is allowed on all ships. Anyway,
>>>> there is no guarantee for that.
>>>>
>>>> I saw one documentary about service staff on board a ship, and I
>>>> think his base salary was about £47, with the rest coming in tips.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if those UK based are subject to tax under the employer or
>>>> if they can claim self-employment, in which case their liabilities
>>>> are lower.
>>>
>>> Not sure if it still the case, but it was. If a UK employee is
>>> outside the UK at midnight for 180 days or more then no UK tax is
>>> paid. Even sailing from Dover at 2355 is classed as being outside the
>>> UK if sailing to a non-UK port. Many of the seafarers affected by
>>> those P&O action will be non-taxpayers (not so for Cairnryan staff).
>>>
>>
>> In the case of Dover-Calais, would they be liable for French tax then?
>>
>
> No. But if the French rules are the same as the UK then they still would
> not be liable unless they did not get 180 x midnights outside France!
>

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:

>>
>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?
>
> What other Ocean Liners are there and does she still do that?
>

Well I hope she does as I’m booked Soton - NY next month and she has to get
back from the previous crossing, as Recliner says doing it for the
experience of crossing the Atlantic by sea just once.
(name dropping moment) was prompted by chatting last Autumn to Stephen
Payne the lead designer of her who I see a couple of times a year about his
handiwork and thought it time I tried it ,so booked when prices were set to
tempt people back. I have been on before but that was when she was under
construction in France, not as a passenger.
Takes longer to cross now than it did a few years back, they save fuel and
have more time to take more money off the guests.

GH

On 25/03/2022 17:42, Marland wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>
>>>
>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?
>>
>> What other Ocean Liners are there and does she still do that?
>>
>
> Well I hope she does as I’m booked Soton - NY next month and she has to get
> back from the previous crossing, as Recliner says doing it for the
> experience of crossing the Atlantic by sea just once.
> (name dropping moment) was prompted by chatting last Autumn to Stephen
> Payne the lead designer of her who I see a couple of times a year about his
> handiwork and thought it time I tried it ,so booked when prices were set to
> tempt people back. I have been on before but that was when she was under
> construction in France, not as a passenger.
> Takes longer to cross now than it did a few years back, they save fuel and
> have more time to take more money off the guests.
>
>

Mind the icebergs!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 25/03/2022 17:38, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 17:24, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 17:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2022 17:02, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been
>>>>>>>>>>>> a great fuss
>>>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut.
>>>>>>>>>>>> A ship on
>>>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and
>>>>>>>>>>>> refused to allow
>>>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is
>>>>>>>>>>> legal because
>>>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have,
>>>>>>>>>>> it appears,
>>>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others,
>>>>>>>>>>> notably Irish
>>>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue
>>>>>>>>>>> what constitutes
>>>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK
>>>>>>>>>>> minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port
>>>>>>>>>>> could they be
>>>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs
>>>>>>>>>>> and immigration
>>>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of
>>>>>>>>>>> the minimum
>>>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to
>>>>>>>>>> the many
>>>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels
>>>>>>>>>> sailing on
>>>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably,
>>>>>>>>>> have control
>>>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing
>>>>>>>>>> to non-UK
>>>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports?
>>>>>>>>> A ferry by
>>>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if
>>>>>>>>> there is no
>>>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of
>>>>>>>>> legal drafting
>>>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the
>>>>>>>>> sale of ferry
>>>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end
>>>>>>>> ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen
>>>>>>>> calls on
>>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St
>>>>>>>> Peterport /
>>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes
>>>>>>>> affected by
>>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O
>>>>>>>> used to
>>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include
>>>>>>> regularly
>>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal
>>>>>>> drafter could
>>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for
>>>>>>> go anywhere
>>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger
>>>>>>> King worker
>>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the
>>>>>>> ferry is
>>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly
>>>>>> itinerary
>>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar
>>>>>> roles on
>>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips,
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>>
>>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New
>>>>> York and Southampton?
>>>>
>>>> QM2 has done global cruises, IIRC.
>>>
>>> Point of the QM2, like the QE2 before, is that she alternates being a
>>> cruise ship and a liner.
>>>
>>
>> I wonder what it was like to travel on the Cunard or White Star Lines.
>>
>> (Please, no remarks about RMS Titanic or RMS Lusitania as those were
>> real tragedies.)
>
> The only liner, as opposed to ferry, voyage I've done was with the
> original P&O (SS Canton) from Aden to Southampton, and that was 1959.
>

On 25/03/2022 17:58, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 17:38, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 17:24, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2022 17:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 25/03/2022 17:02, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a great fuss
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shut. A ship on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> refused to allow
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is
>>>>>>>>>>>> legal because
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have,
>>>>>>>>>>>> it appears,
>>>>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others,
>>>>>>>>>>>> notably Irish
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue
>>>>>>>>>>>> what constitutes
>>>>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK
>>>>>>>>>>>> minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port
>>>>>>>>>>>> could they be
>>>>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs
>>>>>>>>>>>> and immigration
>>>>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the minimum
>>>>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>>>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to
>>>>>>>>>>> the many
>>>>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels
>>>>>>>>>>> sailing on
>>>>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably,
>>>>>>>>>>> have control
>>>>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing
>>>>>>>>>>> to non-UK
>>>>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry
>>>>>>>>>> ports? A ferry by
>>>>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if
>>>>>>>>>> there is no
>>>>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of
>>>>>>>>>> legal drafting
>>>>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the
>>>>>>>>>> sale of ferry
>>>>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end
>>>>>>>>> ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen
>>>>>>>>> calls on
>>>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St
>>>>>>>>> Peterport /
>>>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes
>>>>>>>>> affected by
>>>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O
>>>>>>>>> used to
>>>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include
>>>>>>>> regularly
>>>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal
>>>>>>>> drafter could
>>>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for
>>>>>>>> go anywhere
>>>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger
>>>>>>>> King worker
>>>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the
>>>>>>>> ferry is
>>>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly
>>>>>>> itinerary
>>>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar
>>>>>>> roles on
>>>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips,
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New
>>>>>> York and Southampton?
>>>>>
>>>>> QM2 has done global cruises, IIRC.
>>>>
>>>> Point of the QM2, like the QE2 before, is that she alternates being
>>>> a cruise ship and a liner.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I wonder what it was like to travel on the Cunard or White Star Lines.
>>>
>>> (Please, no remarks about RMS Titanic or RMS Lusitania as those were
>>> real tragedies.)
>>
>> The only liner, as opposed to ferry, voyage I've done was with the
>> original P&O (SS Canton) from Aden to Southampton, and that was 1959.
>>
>
> I guess that you went via the Suez? I have heard, I guess after
> Evergreen, that this is pretty unimpressive.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>
>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar roles on
>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>
>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?
>>
>> What other Ocean Liners are there and does she still do that?
>>
>
> There aren't any other ocean liners, but many of the cruise ships do a
> couple of re-positioning trans-Atlantic crossings a year. For example, some
> operate in the Med for the summer, and Caribbean for the winter. In
> between, they provide journey opportunities from, say, Barcelona to Fort
> Lauderdale. There are similar journeys from Japan to Alaska and on to
> Vancouver. These often provide relatively low cost passenger journeys,
> because of the number of sea days.
>
> I'm doing one next year on one of the small cruise ships, from Southampton
> via Liverpool, Belfast and Greenland to Quebec City.
>
>

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 13:18, Recliner wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:30 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:48, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK on the
>>>>>>> same basis?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would not be surprised to find out that there are exceptions for
>>>>>> service staff on cruise liners. Their base pay is lousy, and all parties
>>>>>> know that. yet they can reap a windfall in tips.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not really a windfall — it's just making up for their very low pay.
>>>>> There's usually a suggested daily rate for tips which passengers put in a
>>>>> special envelope at the end of the cruise. They can, of course, pay a
>>>>> higher or lower amount, at their discretion.
>>>>>
>>>>> But the cruise ships I go on (Silversea and Noble Caledonia) include all
>>>>> tips in the fare.
>>>>
>>>> In that case, in what sense are they tips? They’re can’t reflect the
>>>> quality of service offered by any particular crew member, and they aren’t,
>>>> presumably, voluntary on the passenger’s part, are they?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> There's presumably nothing to say that passengers can't still tip where
>>> they feel it's appropriate; but this removes any feeling of compulsion to
>>> tip for everything, American-style.
>>>
>>> I've just been on a (mostly) all-inclusive cruise, where any additional
>>> charges which you did incur get charged to your cabin, so on board is
>>> cashless; whenever we did want to tip we didn't usually have any cash with
>>> us!
>>
>> I think most cruise ships are cashless, even ones where you have to pay
>> for lots of extras. They're just charged to your
>> room account (you normally have to present a credit card early in the
>> voyage) and you may have credits applied already.
>
> If the cruise is multi-national, meaning that they call at several
> different ports, than what currency is the norm, be that cash or electronic?
>
> What if passengers permanently disembark at one port or if new
> passengers come on board at another?
>

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 17:27, ColinR wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 17:22, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2022 17:15, ColinR wrote:
>>>> On 25/03/2022 16:57, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder if those UK based are subject to tax under the employer or
>>>>> if they can claim self-employment, in which case their liabilities
>>>>> are lower.
>>>>
>>>> Not sure if it still the case, but it was. If a UK employee is
>>>> outside the UK at midnight for 180 days or more then no UK tax is
>>>> paid. Even sailing from Dover at 2355 is classed as being outside the
>>>> UK if sailing to a non-UK port. Many of the seafarers affected by
>>>> those P&O action will be non-taxpayers (not so for Cairnryan staff).
>>>>
>>>
>>> In the case of Dover-Calais, would they be liable for French tax then?
>>>
>>
>> No. But if the French rules are the same as the UK then they still would
>> not be liable unless they did not get 180 x midnights outside France!
>>
>
> That is what I was thinking, if they spend more than 180 nights out of
> the UK they are likely to spend less than 180 nights out of France.
>

Taking the Harwich - Hoek ferry as an example, both vessels are at sea at
midnight every day.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 25/03/2022 19:03, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 17:58, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 17:38, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2022 17:24, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>> On 25/03/2022 17:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> On 25/03/2022 17:02, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been a great fuss
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shut. A ship on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refused to allow
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is legal because
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it appears,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> notably Irish
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what constitutes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK
>>>>>>>>>>>>> minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port
>>>>>>>>>>>>> could they be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and immigration
>>>>>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the minimum
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> exploiting international
>>>>>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently
>>>>>>>>>>>> to the many
>>>>>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels
>>>>>>>>>>>> sailing on
>>>>>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably,
>>>>>>>>>>>> have control
>>>>>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing
>>>>>>>>>>>> to non-UK
>>>>>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry
>>>>>>>>>>> ports? A ferry by
>>>>>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even
>>>>>>>>>>> if there is no
>>>>>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of
>>>>>>>>>>> legal drafting
>>>>>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the
>>>>>>>>>>> sale of ferry
>>>>>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end
>>>>>>>>>> ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen
>>>>>>>>>> calls on
>>>>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St
>>>>>>>>>> Peterport /
>>>>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes
>>>>>>>>>> affected by
>>>>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O
>>>>>>>>>> used to
>>>>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include
>>>>>>>>> regularly
>>>>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal
>>>>>>>>> drafter could
>>>>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for
>>>>>>>>> go anywhere
>>>>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger
>>>>>>>>> King worker
>>>>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the
>>>>>>>>> ferry is
>>>>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly
>>>>>>>> itinerary
>>>>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for
>>>>>>>> similar roles on
>>>>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round
>>>>>>>> trips, rather
>>>>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New
>>>>>>> York and Southampton?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> QM2 has done global cruises, IIRC.
>>>>>
>>>>> Point of the QM2, like the QE2 before, is that she alternates being
>>>>> a cruise ship and a liner.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wonder what it was like to travel on the Cunard or White Star Lines.
>>>>
>>>> (Please, no remarks about RMS Titanic or RMS Lusitania as those were
>>>> real tragedies.)
>>>
>>> The only liner, as opposed to ferry, voyage I've done was with the
>>> original P&O (SS Canton) from Aden to Southampton, and that was 1959.
>>>
>>
>> I guess that you went via the Suez? I have heard, I guess after
>> Evergreen, that this is pretty unimpressive.
>
> Yes, Red Sea, Suez, Med, Bay of Biscay, in February! As for the canal
> being unimpressive, after 2 years living on the edge of the desert, more
> sand doesn't impress.
>

On 25/03/2022 20:21, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 19:03, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 17:58, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2022 17:38, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 25/03/2022 17:24, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>> On 25/03/2022 17:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>> On 25/03/2022 17:02, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been a great fuss
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shut. A ship on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refused to allow
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is legal because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have, it appears,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notably Irish
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what constitutes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UK minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could they be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> customs and immigration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the minimum
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exploiting international
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the many
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine
>>>>>>>>>>>>> vessels sailing on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably, have control
>>>>>>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sailing to non-UK
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry
>>>>>>>>>>>> ports? A ferry by
>>>>>>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even
>>>>>>>>>>>> if there is no
>>>>>>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of
>>>>>>>>>>>> legal drafting
>>>>>>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban
>>>>>>>>>>>> the sale of ferry
>>>>>>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end
>>>>>>>>>>> ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen
>>>>>>>>>>> calls on
>>>>>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St
>>>>>>>>>>> Peterport /
>>>>>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes
>>>>>>>>>>> affected by
>>>>>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even
>>>>>>>>>>> P&O used to
>>>>>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include
>>>>>>>>>> regularly
>>>>>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal
>>>>>>>>>> drafter could
>>>>>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended
>>>>>>>>>> for go anywhere
>>>>>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger
>>>>>>>>>> King worker
>>>>>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the
>>>>>>>>>> ferry is
>>>>>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly
>>>>>>>>> itinerary
>>>>>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for
>>>>>>>>> similar roles on
>>>>>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round
>>>>>>>>> trips, rather
>>>>>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New
>>>>>>>> York and Southampton?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> QM2 has done global cruises, IIRC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Point of the QM2, like the QE2 before, is that she alternates
>>>>>> being a cruise ship and a liner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder what it was like to travel on the Cunard or White Star Lines.
>>>>>
>>>>> (Please, no remarks about RMS Titanic or RMS Lusitania as those
>>>>> were real tragedies.)
>>>>
>>>> The only liner, as opposed to ferry, voyage I've done was with the
>>>> original P&O (SS Canton) from Aden to Southampton, and that was 1959.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I guess that you went via the Suez? I have heard, I guess after
>>> Evergreen, that this is pretty unimpressive.
>>
>> Yes, Red Sea, Suez, Med, Bay of Biscay, in February! As for the canal
>> being unimpressive, after 2 years living on the edge of the desert,
>> more sand doesn't impress.
>>
>
> I don't suppose you ever visited South Yemen, when it was a sovereign
> state, by the way?