hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>
>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>
>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar roles on
>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>>> than port-to-port.
>>
>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?
>
> QM2 has done global cruises, IIRC.
>

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 14:08, Recliner wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 14:00:26 +0000, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar roles on
>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>
>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?
>>>
>>> I suppose a small minority of their passengers do actually want to go
>>> from the US to England, and have the time and money to do it in style.
>>
>> They do it for the 'Cunard experience', or, in a few cases, because they can't/won't fly.
>>
>> There are other ways of crossing the Atlantic by ship, but only the QM2
>> does regular voyages in both directions.
>
> You can book on some freighters, if the captain will allow it or their
> schedule lines up with yours. The on-board amenities can be rather
> streamlined, if we compare them with the Queens, but they are
> comfortable enough and will normally have wait staff.
>
> I've heard of some cases where such ships might have a gym and swimming
> pool.
>

I think those stories are from the past.

But plenty of cruise liners do occasional trans-Atlantic journeys.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 22/03/2022 22:55, ColinR wrote:
>> On 22/03/2022 21:09, Recliner wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others
>>>>>>>>> no. In
>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley
>>>>>>>>> and food
>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that
>>>>>>>> helps
>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this
>>>>>>>> diversion
>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their
>>>>>>>> sleeping
>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't
>>>>>>> find any
>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great
>>>>> fuss
>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal
>>>> because
>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have, it appears,
>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>
>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what
>>>> constitutes
>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum
>>>> wage is
>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and
>>>> immigration
>>>> services?
>>>>
>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the
>>>> minimum
>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>> international
>>>> maritime law.
>>>
>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably, have control
>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>> ports.
>>>
>>> P&O Ferries were the anomaly, in that they retained UK crews, paid UK
>>> wages. P&O cruise liners haven't done that for many years. Here's a
>>> report
>>> from a decade ago:
>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/jul/01/arcadia-cruise-ship-indian-crew>
>>>
>>
>> P&O (when a discrete company rather than the current split apart
>> company) have always employed foreign seafarers, many of them Goanese.
>> This a relic from the days of the Raj!
>>
>
> I've also seen ships where many of the crew have been Indonesian.
>

Yes, but usually not in passenger-facing roles, as they don't usually speak
English. Hotel crew are typically East European, Filipino or Indian (but
occasionally from Latin America), while deck and engine crew might come
from anywhere.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 16:01, Recliner wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar roles on
>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>
>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?
>>>
>>> What other Ocean Liners are there and does she still do that?
>>>
>>
>> There aren't any other ocean liners, but many of the cruise ships do a
>> couple of re-positioning trans-Atlantic crossings a year. For example, some
>> operate in the Med for the summer, and Caribbean for the winter. In
>> between, they provide journey opportunities from, say, Barcelona to Fort
>> Lauderdale. There are similar journeys from Japan to Alaska and on to
>> Vancouver. These often provide relatively low cost passenger journeys,
>> because of the number of sea days.
>>
>> I'm doing one next year on one of the small cruise ships, from Southampton
>> via Liverpool, Belfast and Greenland to Quebec City.
>>
>
> Presumably you fly back as part of the package?
>

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 17:22, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 17:15, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2022 16:14, ColinR wrote:
>>>> On 25/03/2022 15:14, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a great fuss
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A ship on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> refused to allow
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is
>>>>>>>>>>>> legal because
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have,
>>>>>>>>>>>> it appears,
>>>>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others,
>>>>>>>>>>>> notably Irish
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue
>>>>>>>>>>>> what constitutes
>>>>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK
>>>>>>>>>>>> minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port
>>>>>>>>>>>> could they be
>>>>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs
>>>>>>>>>>>> and immigration
>>>>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the minimum
>>>>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>>>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to
>>>>>>>>>>> the many
>>>>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels
>>>>>>>>>>> sailing on
>>>>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably,
>>>>>>>>>>> have control
>>>>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing
>>>>>>>>>>> to non-UK
>>>>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports?
>>>>>>>>>> A ferry by
>>>>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if
>>>>>>>>>> there is no
>>>>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of
>>>>>>>>>> legal drafting
>>>>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the
>>>>>>>>>> sale of ferry
>>>>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end
>>>>>>>>> ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen
>>>>>>>>> calls on
>>>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St
>>>>>>>>> Peterport /
>>>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes
>>>>>>>>> affected by
>>>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O
>>>>>>>>> used to
>>>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include
>>>>>>>> regularly
>>>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal
>>>>>>>> drafter could
>>>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for
>>>>>>>> go anywhere
>>>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger
>>>>>>>> King worker
>>>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the
>>>>>>>> ferry is
>>>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly
>>>>>>> itinerary
>>>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar
>>>>>>> roles on
>>>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips,
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New
>>>>>> York and Southampton?
>>>>>
>>>>> What other Ocean Liners are there and does she still do that?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ahh, depends on your dictionary but a common definition of liner is
>>>> "a ship belonging to a regular line" or similar. If the regular line
>>>> is across an ocean then the ship is an ocean liner. The "regular" bit
>>>> means following a timetable. It does NOT mean that it is a full
>>>> passenger ship - in days of yore there were many cargo liners - and
>>>> they still exist.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.cargoshipvoyages.com
>>>>
>>>> So, yes, ocean liners do still exist!
>>>>
>>>> OK, maybe I am being pedantic but....
>>>>
>>>
>>> Good point, many container ships work on regular timetabled routes, so
>>> those would be liners. Though I don't think many have passenger
>>> accommodation.
>>>
>> Some do. If they are proprely crewed and have an extra cabin available,
>> then it is a little extra revenue for the ship.
>
> And they can carry up to 12 passengers if accommodation is available.
>

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 17:38, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 17:24, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2022 17:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 25/03/2022 17:02, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a great fuss
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A ship on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> refused to allow
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is
>>>>>>>>>>>> legal because
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have,
>>>>>>>>>>>> it appears,
>>>>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others,
>>>>>>>>>>>> notably Irish
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue
>>>>>>>>>>>> what constitutes
>>>>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK
>>>>>>>>>>>> minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port
>>>>>>>>>>>> could they be
>>>>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs
>>>>>>>>>>>> and immigration
>>>>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the minimum
>>>>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>>>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to
>>>>>>>>>>> the many
>>>>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels
>>>>>>>>>>> sailing on
>>>>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably,
>>>>>>>>>>> have control
>>>>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing
>>>>>>>>>>> to non-UK
>>>>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports?
>>>>>>>>>> A ferry by
>>>>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if
>>>>>>>>>> there is no
>>>>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of
>>>>>>>>>> legal drafting
>>>>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the
>>>>>>>>>> sale of ferry
>>>>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end
>>>>>>>>> ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen
>>>>>>>>> calls on
>>>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St
>>>>>>>>> Peterport /
>>>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes
>>>>>>>>> affected by
>>>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O
>>>>>>>>> used to
>>>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include
>>>>>>>> regularly
>>>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal
>>>>>>>> drafter could
>>>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for
>>>>>>>> go anywhere
>>>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger
>>>>>>>> King worker
>>>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the
>>>>>>>> ferry is
>>>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly
>>>>>>> itinerary
>>>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar
>>>>>>> roles on
>>>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips,
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New
>>>>>> York and Southampton?
>>>>>
>>>>> QM2 has done global cruises, IIRC.
>>>>
>>>> Point of the QM2, like the QE2 before, is that she alternates being a
>>>> cruise ship and a liner.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I wonder what it was like to travel on the Cunard or White Star Lines.
>>>
>>> (Please, no remarks about RMS Titanic or RMS Lusitania as those were
>>> real tragedies.)
>>
>> The only liner, as opposed to ferry, voyage I've done was with the
>> original P&O (SS Canton) from Aden to Southampton, and that was 1959.
>>
>
> I guess that you went via the Suez? I have heard, I guess after
> Evergreen, that this is pretty unimpressive.
>

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar roles on
>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>
>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?
>>>
>>> What other Ocean Liners are there and does she still do that?
>>>
>>
>> There aren't any other ocean liners, but many of the cruise ships do a
>> couple of re-positioning trans-Atlantic crossings a year. For example, some
>> operate in the Med for the summer, and Caribbean for the winter. In
>> between, they provide journey opportunities from, say, Barcelona to Fort
>> Lauderdale. There are similar journeys from Japan to Alaska and on to
>> Vancouver. These often provide relatively low cost passenger journeys,
>> because of the number of sea days.
>>
>> I'm doing one next year on one of the small cruise ships, from Southampton
>> via Liverpool, Belfast and Greenland to Quebec City.
>>
>>
>
> The ships which do Arctic cruises generally do a summer season at each end
> of the planet, and the one I was aware of around 20 years ago, did
> UK-Azores-Panama Canal-Chilean coast along the way, and I'm pretty sure you
> could book a transatlantic voyage.
>

On 25/03/2022 22:04, Recliner wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 14:08, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 14:00:26 +0000, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St Peterport /
>>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes affected by
>>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter could
>>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go anywhere
>>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King worker
>>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar roles on
>>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>>
>>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York and Southampton?
>>>>
>>>> I suppose a small minority of their passengers do actually want to go
>>>> from the US to England, and have the time and money to do it in style.
>>>
>>> They do it for the 'Cunard experience', or, in a few cases, because they can't/won't fly.
>>>
>>> There are other ways of crossing the Atlantic by ship, but only the QM2
>>> does regular voyages in both directions.
>>
>> You can book on some freighters, if the captain will allow it or their
>> schedule lines up with yours. The on-board amenities can be rather
>> streamlined, if we compare them with the Queens, but they are
>> comfortable enough and will normally have wait staff.
>>
>> I've heard of some cases where such ships might have a gym and swimming
>> pool.
>>
>
> I think those stories are from the past.

Looking at the link Colin posted, at least some cargo ships offer such
amenities.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 25/03/2022 22:04, Recliner wrote:
> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 17:22, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2022 17:15, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 25/03/2022 16:14, ColinR wrote:
>>>>> On 25/03/2022 15:14, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a great fuss
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A ship on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refused to allow
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> legal because
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it appears,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> notably Irish
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what constitutes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK
>>>>>>>>>>>>> minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port
>>>>>>>>>>>>> could they be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and immigration
>>>>>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the minimum
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>>>>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to
>>>>>>>>>>>> the many
>>>>>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels
>>>>>>>>>>>> sailing on
>>>>>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably,
>>>>>>>>>>>> have control
>>>>>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing
>>>>>>>>>>>> to non-UK
>>>>>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports?
>>>>>>>>>>> A ferry by
>>>>>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if
>>>>>>>>>>> there is no
>>>>>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of
>>>>>>>>>>> legal drafting
>>>>>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the
>>>>>>>>>>> sale of ferry
>>>>>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end
>>>>>>>>>> ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen
>>>>>>>>>> calls on
>>>>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St
>>>>>>>>>> Peterport /
>>>>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes
>>>>>>>>>> affected by
>>>>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O
>>>>>>>>>> used to
>>>>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include
>>>>>>>>> regularly
>>>>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal
>>>>>>>>> drafter could
>>>>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for
>>>>>>>>> go anywhere
>>>>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger
>>>>>>>>> King worker
>>>>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the
>>>>>>>>> ferry is
>>>>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly
>>>>>>>> itinerary
>>>>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar
>>>>>>>> roles on
>>>>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips,
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New
>>>>>>> York and Southampton?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What other Ocean Liners are there and does she still do that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ahh, depends on your dictionary but a common definition of liner is
>>>>> "a ship belonging to a regular line" or similar. If the regular line
>>>>> is across an ocean then the ship is an ocean liner. The "regular" bit
>>>>> means following a timetable. It does NOT mean that it is a full
>>>>> passenger ship - in days of yore there were many cargo liners - and
>>>>> they still exist.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.cargoshipvoyages.com
>>>>>
>>>>> So, yes, ocean liners do still exist!
>>>>>
>>>>> OK, maybe I am being pedantic but....
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good point, many container ships work on regular timetabled routes, so
>>>> those would be liners. Though I don't think many have passenger
>>>> accommodation.
>>>>
>>> Some do. If they are proprely crewed and have an extra cabin available,
>>> then it is a little extra revenue for the ship.
>>
>> And they can carry up to 12 passengers if accommodation is available.
>>
>
> I thought modern container ships had tiny crews, and any guest cabins would
> be reserved for management or relatives of officers. They don't use
> passenger docks, so any commercial passengers would have trouble boarding
> or leaving the ship. The tiny passenger revenue wouldn't outweigh the
> inconvenience to the line.
>

On 25/03/2022 20:10, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 17:27, ColinR wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2022 17:22, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 25/03/2022 17:15, ColinR wrote:
>>>>> On 25/03/2022 16:57, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder if those UK based are subject to tax under the employer or
>>>>>> if they can claim self-employment, in which case their liabilities
>>>>>> are lower.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure if it still the case, but it was. If a UK employee is
>>>>> outside the UK at midnight for 180 days or more then no UK tax is
>>>>> paid. Even sailing from Dover at 2355 is classed as being outside the
>>>>> UK if sailing to a non-UK port. Many of the seafarers affected by
>>>>> those P&O action will be non-taxpayers (not so for Cairnryan staff).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the case of Dover-Calais, would they be liable for French tax then?
>>>>
>>>
>>> No. But if the French rules are the same as the UK then they still would
>>> not be liable unless they did not get 180 x midnights outside France!
>>>
>>
>> That is what I was thinking, if they spend more than 180 nights out of
>> the UK they are likely to spend less than 180 nights out of France.
>>
>
> Taking the Harwich - Hoek ferry as an example, both vessels are at sea at
> midnight every day.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

As do (did) the Hull / Rotterdan ferries.

I recall when working at Dover that many staff used the late ferry (as
passengers) from Dover which docked back in Dover soon after midnight if
they were just short of their 180 days - the days out of the country did
not need to be working so the passenger fee for a couple of round trips
was more than made up by paying no tax for the year!

--
Colin

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>>
>> And they can carry up to 12 passengers if accommodation is available.
>>
>
> I thought modern container ships had tiny crews, and any guest cabins would
> be reserved for management or relatives of officers. They don't use
> passenger docks, so any commercial passengers would have trouble boarding
> or leaving the ship. The tiny passenger revenue wouldn't outweigh the
> inconvenience to the line.
>
>

CMGA CGM are one of the Container ship lines that still accommodate
passengers.
I see the ships from about 100 yards away when they are on the berth in
Southampton.
Passengers are brought to and from the Gangway by Taxi, though I have
never had reason to inquire
I would think walking to the nearest dock road in area where cranes are
handling containers which are
then collected by a series of swift moving straddle carriers is probably
not allowed plus the need to get through security gates which are set up
for vehicles.OTOH not many people walk to the the passenger terminals
either so once in a Taxi where the berth is doesn’t make much difference.
And 8 passengers are not going to create the queues that a couple of
thousand do.

link for CMGA passenger itineraries.

< http://www.cruisepeople.co.uk/cma.htm>

GH

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> And they can carry up to 12 passengers if accommodation is available.
>>>
>>
>> I thought modern container ships had tiny crews, and any guest cabins would
>> be reserved for management or relatives of officers. They don't use
>> passenger docks, so any commercial passengers would have trouble boarding
>> or leaving the ship. The tiny passenger revenue wouldn't outweigh the
>> inconvenience to the line.
>>
>>
>
> CMGA CGM are one of the Container ship lines that still accommodate
> passengers.
> I see the ships from about 100 yards away when they are on the berth in
> Southampton.
> Passengers are brought to and from the Gangway by Taxi, though I have
> never had reason to inquire
> I would think walking to the nearest dock road in area where cranes are
> handling containers which are
> then collected by a series of swift moving straddle carriers is probably
> not allowed plus the need to get through security gates which are set up
> for vehicles.OTOH not many people walk to the the passenger terminals
> either so once in a Taxi where the berth is doesn’t make much difference.
> And 8 passengers are not going to create the queues that a couple of
> thousand do.
>
> link for CMGA passenger itineraries.
>
> < http://www.cruisepeople.co.uk/cma.htm>
>

I wonder how many of those few cabins (two to five per ship) are available
in practice for unaffiliated commercial passengers?

On 25/03/2022 22:04, Recliner wrote:
> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 25/03/2022 17:22, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> On 25/03/2022 17:15, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 25/03/2022 16:14, ColinR wrote:
>>>>> On 25/03/2022 15:14, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a great fuss
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A ship on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refused to allow
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> legal because
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it appears,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> notably Irish
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what constitutes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK
>>>>>>>>>>>>> minimum wage is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port
>>>>>>>>>>>>> could they be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and immigration
>>>>>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the minimum
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>>>>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to
>>>>>>>>>>>> the many
>>>>>>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels
>>>>>>>>>>>> sailing on
>>>>>>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably,
>>>>>>>>>>>> have control
>>>>>>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing
>>>>>>>>>>>> to non-UK
>>>>>>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports?
>>>>>>>>>>> A ferry by
>>>>>>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if
>>>>>>>>>>> there is no
>>>>>>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of
>>>>>>>>>>> legal drafting
>>>>>>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the
>>>>>>>>>>> sale of ferry
>>>>>>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end
>>>>>>>>>> ponts". Really??
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen
>>>>>>>>>> calls on
>>>>>>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>>>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St
>>>>>>>>>> Peterport /
>>>>>>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes
>>>>>>>>>> affected by
>>>>>>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O
>>>>>>>>>> used to
>>>>>>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include
>>>>>>>>> regularly
>>>>>>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal
>>>>>>>>> drafter could
>>>>>>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for
>>>>>>>>> go anywhere
>>>>>>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger
>>>>>>>>> King worker
>>>>>>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the
>>>>>>>>> ferry is
>>>>>>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly
>>>>>>>> itinerary
>>>>>>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar
>>>>>>>> roles on
>>>>>>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips,
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> than port-to-port.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New
>>>>>>> York and Southampton?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What other Ocean Liners are there and does she still do that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ahh, depends on your dictionary but a common definition of liner is
>>>>> "a ship belonging to a regular line" or similar. If the regular line
>>>>> is across an ocean then the ship is an ocean liner. The "regular" bit
>>>>> means following a timetable. It does NOT mean that it is a full
>>>>> passenger ship - in days of yore there were many cargo liners - and
>>>>> they still exist.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.cargoshipvoyages.com
>>>>>
>>>>> So, yes, ocean liners do still exist!
>>>>>
>>>>> OK, maybe I am being pedantic but....
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good point, many container ships work on regular timetabled routes, so
>>>> those would be liners. Though I don't think many have passenger
>>>> accommodation.
>>>>
>>> Some do. If they are proprely crewed and have an extra cabin available,
>>> then it is a little extra revenue for the ship.
>>
>> And they can carry up to 12 passengers if accommodation is available.
>>
>
> I thought modern container ships had tiny crews, and any guest cabins would
> be reserved for management or relatives of officers.

On 25/03/2022 22:04, Recliner wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 22/03/2022 22:55, ColinR wrote:
>>> On 22/03/2022 21:09, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others
>>>>>>>>>> no. In
>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley
>>>>>>>>>> and food
>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that
>>>>>>>>> helps
>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this
>>>>>>>>> diversion
>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their
>>>>>>>>> sleeping
>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't
>>>>>>>> find any
>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great
>>>>>> fuss
>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal
>>>>> because
>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have, it appears,
>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what
>>>>> constitutes
>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum
>>>>> wage is
>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and
>>>>> immigration
>>>>> services?
>>>>>
>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the
>>>>> minimum
>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>> international
>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>
>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably, have control
>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>> ports.
>>>>
>>>> P&O Ferries were the anomaly, in that they retained UK crews, paid UK
>>>> wages. P&O cruise liners haven't done that for many years. Here's a
>>>> report
>>>> from a decade ago:
>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/jul/01/arcadia-cruise-ship-indian-crew>
>>>>
>>>
>>> P&O (when a discrete company rather than the current split apart
>>> company) have always employed foreign seafarers, many of them Goanese.
>>> This a relic from the days of the Raj!
>>>
>>
>> I've also seen ships where many of the crew have been Indonesian.
>>
>
> Yes, but usually not in passenger-facing roles, as they don't usually speak
> English. Hotel crew are typically East European, Filipino or Indian (but
> occasionally from Latin America), while deck and engine crew might come
> from anywhere.
>

They were not passenger-facing on the ship that I saw.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 22:04, Recliner wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 22/03/2022 22:55, ColinR wrote:
>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:09, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others
>>>>>>>>>>> no. In
>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley
>>>>>>>>>>> and food
>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that
>>>>>>>>>> helps
>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this
>>>>>>>>>> diversion
>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their
>>>>>>>>>> sleeping
>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't
>>>>>>>>> find any
>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great
>>>>>>> fuss
>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what
>>>>>> constitutes
>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum
>>>>>> wage is
>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and
>>>>>> immigration
>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the
>>>>>> minimum
>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>>> international
>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>
>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably, have control
>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>> ports.
>>>>>
>>>>> P&O Ferries were the anomaly, in that they retained UK crews, paid UK
>>>>> wages. P&O cruise liners haven't done that for many years. Here's a
>>>>> report
>>>>> from a decade ago:
>>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/jul/01/arcadia-cruise-ship-indian-crew>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> P&O (when a discrete company rather than the current split apart
>>>> company) have always employed foreign seafarers, many of them Goanese.
>>>> This a relic from the days of the Raj!
>>>>
>>>
>>> I've also seen ships where many of the crew have been Indonesian.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, but usually not in passenger-facing roles, as they don't usually speak
>> English. Hotel crew are typically East European, Filipino or Indian (but
>> occasionally from Latin America), while deck and engine crew might come
>> from anywhere.
>>
>
> They were not passenger-facing on the ship that I saw.
>

Yes, that makes sense. Indonesia is a low-income islands nation with a long
history of seafaring, so it must have many citizens more than happy to work
for the low, but tax-free, wages on offer on ships around the world. I'd
guess they'd mainly be deck-hands.

In my experience, the engine crew seem to be mainly East European.

In message <t1g8ek$2ns$4@dont-email.me>, at 22:54:12 on Wed, 23 Mar
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>I can't remember the last time I had bad food on an aeroplane (though the
>M&S sandwich served by BA disappointing rather than bad).
>
>Some of it (particularly flights with various airlines to various
>destinations in Asia) has been actually noticeably good!

And the catering in the business class lounges at the airports for those
airlines is magnificent too.

>Even the hot food which EasyJet and TUI sell on board is no better or worse
>than you could buy from a coffee outlet in the terminal or (ob.rail) at a
>railway station (toasties, bacon roll etc).

I always used to have a hot bacon roll for breakfast when flying from
East Midlands to Amsterdam (a monthly commute for several years). But
you had to get you order in quickly, otherwise the plane would be almost
there before it was served.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t1g3ih$v2o$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:30:55 on Wed, 23 Mar
2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
><hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:t1g1n3$da2$2@gioia.aioe.org...
>
>>>> IIRC, air crews have meals that are completely different than
>>>>passengers. Is this to prevent any sort of contamination and
>>>>poisoning, possibly rendering them incapable of effectively and
>>>>safely performing their jobs?
>>>
>>> Pilot and co-pilot not allowed to have the same meal in case of food
>>>poisoning. It did happen in Canada IIRC, there's a famous film and
>>>book, Flight Into Danger, which is a fictionalised version of the
>>>event.
>
>Is the food which is served on aeroplanes supposed to be a) palatable,
>b) edible? I'm not being facetious: my experience of food on
>transatlantic planes is that it is uniformly vile. I found it was
>better to have a meal at home before I set off, and/or take snacks to
>eat on the plane.

There's something about the reduced cabin pressure which interferes
with many people's sense of smell - which then translates into sense
of taste.

Apparently they are particularly fussy about what wines they serve,
because it affects some varieties more than others
--
Roland Perry

In message <t1g622$ats$2@gioia.aioe.org>, at 22:13:21 on Wed, 23 Mar
2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:

>The food is generally not bad if you are flying long-distance econo --
>particularly on a legacy.

While I'm not sure it's strictly a legacy airline, the economy food
(like many other aspects of the experience) on Emirates is perfectly
acceptable.

>As well, if you don't like it, you can normally get something else if
>you politely ask.

Apparently the trick when flying transatlantic economy on USA-registered
planes is to advance order one of the 'special' meals (they have to
offer these) even if you don't actually have a specific religious or
dietary requirement. Being produced in much lower volumes, they are
better. And they are often handed out first, which is another bonus.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t1g1r6$h0t$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:01:28 on Wed, 23 Mar
2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:

>> This exploitation is saving the customer an average of £40 per
>>crossing.

>> Average Irish Ferries Dover Calais fares are £135 (exploited work force).
>> DFDS and old P&O £175. Currently Irish Ferries are getting the traffic for
>> obvious reasons. If you believe this is acceptable you might need to think
>> that all UK minimum wage legislation needs to be abolished.
>
>The problem is that within the UK all employers are governed by the
>same laws so minimum wages (or otherwise) will be adhered to by all
>employers. However, when looking at the shipping industry the same laws
>do not apply to all so competition will cause a rush to the bottom as
>proven by Irish Ferries creaming off the traffic.

There's another effect, which is that workforces which have a
significant number of minimum-wage earners often don't offer much
more than minimum wage as people get promoted up the ranks.

The payroll is being squeezed from the bottom up, and the minimum
wage law doesn't say that if you have a job currently at say 1.2x
minimum wage, and minimum wage gets put up 10%, that you need to
be paid the new minimum wage, x 1.2; rather you end up being paid
[to first approximation] minimum wage x1.1

Eventually almost everyone will get paid close to minimum wage,
irrespective of their rank, skill or experience. Which doesn't
encourage people to excel at their job.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t1h36n$4jl$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:30:47 on Thu, 24 Mar
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>> I would not be surprised to find out that there are exceptions for
>> service staff on cruise liners. Their base pay is lousy, and all parties
>> know that. yet they can reap a windfall in tips.
>
>The cruise I've just been on says "all tips are included" ie tipping not
>necessary (we still did though, occasionally) - perhaps that implies pay
>above the usual for ships?

Tipping culture is a complex thing, and unless one studies it in detail
it's difficult to "do the right thing" sometimes. Apparently waiters in
the USA are expected to be subsidised by tips in the region of 20% on
the bills, and valet parking can be negative-wages (ie they pay the
hotel for the franchise).

When I was in Cairo, it was said the hotel housekeeping staff weren't
paid, and it was the duty of the guests to give them tips.

>One other consideration for those who live aboard for their entire
>six-month contract is that they presumably have no outgoings - no
>accommodation to pay for, no food to buy. Force UK minimum wage and will
>the employers retaliate by charging for board and lodging (as farmers in
>the UK apparently do, see posts passim), effectively meaning the 'take
>home' pay remains the same?

The rate for holiday-camp style accommodation (communal washing and
cooking facilities) for seasonal crop pickers in the Fens is £59/week.
You couldn't find anywhere else to live for that. The pay is National
Living Wage.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t1jpee$q6v$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:02:38 on Fri, 25 Mar
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>Where the Burger King worker at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage
>but the cook on the ferry is earning significantly less there is
>something wrong.

Do Burger King provide free (or highly subsidised) board and lodging,
too? I suppose the staff could sleep in a car in the car park and use
the loos inside the building.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t1lea0$lnu$3@dont-email.me>, at 22:04:48 on Fri, 25 Mar
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>> There are other ways of crossing the Atlantic by ship, but only the QM2
>>> does regular voyages in both directions.
>>
>> You can book on some freighters, if the captain will allow it or their
>> schedule lines up with yours. The on-board amenities can be rather
>> streamlined, if we compare them with the Queens, but they are
>> comfortable enough and will normally have wait staff.
>>
>> I've heard of some cases where such ships might have a gym and swimming
>> pool.
>
>I think those stories are from the past.
>
>But plenty of cruise liners do occasional trans-Atlantic journeys.

I'm fairly sure some friends got a cheap trip from Florida to
Southampton on a cruise liner that was doing its regular
repositioning from seasonal Caribbean tours to Mediterranean ones.

Back in the day the best holiday hires on the inland waterways were if
you could find a boatyard which had satellite sites in other parts of
the country, and was repositioning/refreshing its fleet at start of the
season. They were called "delivery trips". One slight disadvantage being
the triangular nature meant it was more difficult to use a car, rather
than public transport, at the ends.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t1g1r6$h0t$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:01:28 on Wed, 23 Mar
> 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>> This exploitation is saving the customer an average of £40 per
>>> crossing.
>
>>> Average Irish Ferries Dover Calais fares are £135 (exploited work force).
>>> DFDS and old P&O £175. Currently Irish Ferries are getting the traffic for
>>> obvious reasons. If you believe this is acceptable you might need to think
>>> that all UK minimum wage legislation needs to be abolished.
>>
>> The problem is that within the UK all employers are governed by the
>> same laws so minimum wages (or otherwise) will be adhered to by all
>> employers. However, when looking at the shipping industry the same laws
>> do not apply to all so competition will cause a rush to the bottom as
>> proven by Irish Ferries creaming off the traffic.
>
> There's another effect, which is that workforces which have a
> significant number of minimum-wage earners often don't offer much
> more than minimum wage as people get promoted up the ranks.
>
> The payroll is being squeezed from the bottom up, and the minimum
> wage law doesn't say that if you have a job currently at say 1.2x
> minimum wage, and minimum wage gets put up 10%, that you need to
> be paid the new minimum wage, x 1.2; rather you end up being paid
> [to first approximation] minimum wage x1.1
>
> Eventually almost everyone will get paid close to minimum wage,
> irrespective of their rank, skill or experience. Which doesn't
> encourage people to excel at their job.

Agreed. Minimum wage has become the going rate for many, with not much
prospect for advancement. The equivalent annual pay is around £18k. I’ve no
idea how you even begin to live on that. There’s precious little tax to be
paid on that.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t1jpee$q6v$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:02:38 on Fri, 25 Mar
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> Where the Burger King worker at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage
>> but the cook on the ferry is earning significantly less there is
>> something wrong.
>
> Do Burger King provide free (or highly subsidised) board and lodging,
> too? I suppose the staff could sleep in a car in the car park and use
> the loos inside the building.

I’m yet to be convinced that a Dover Calais ferry has sufficient on board
accommodation for at least two shifts of crew.

On 25/03/2022 23:10, Recliner wrote:
> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> And they can carry up to 12 passengers if accommodation is available.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I thought modern container ships had tiny crews, and any guest cabins would
>>> be reserved for management or relatives of officers. They don't use
>>> passenger docks, so any commercial passengers would have trouble boarding
>>> or leaving the ship. The tiny passenger revenue wouldn't outweigh the
>>> inconvenience to the line.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> CMGA CGM are one of the Container ship lines that still accommodate
>> passengers.
>> I see the ships from about 100 yards away when they are on the berth in
>> Southampton.
>> Passengers are brought to and from the Gangway by Taxi, though I have
>> never had reason to inquire
>> I would think walking to the nearest dock road in area where cranes are
>> handling containers which are
>> then collected by a series of swift moving straddle carriers is probably
>> not allowed plus the need to get through security gates which are set up
>> for vehicles.OTOH not many people walk to the the passenger terminals
>> either so once in a Taxi where the berth is doesn’t make much difference.
>> And 8 passengers are not going to create the queues that a couple of
>> thousand do.
>>
>> link for CMGA passenger itineraries.
>>
>> < http://www.cruisepeople.co.uk/cma.htm>
>>
>
> I wonder how many of those few cabins (two to five per ship) are available
> in practice for unaffiliated commercial passengers?
>
>

Two to five normally.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.