I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.

I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?

Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>
> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
> card.

Not yet. It's long been pending, and the work has now apparently scheduled
at last. But I don't think the arrival is imminent.

> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?

I very much doubt it.

> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?

I think so.

>
> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
> card is used?

No:
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/national-railcard-discount

> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>

On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>
> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>
> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.

If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>
>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>
>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>
> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.

Not with a Scottish bus pass…

The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
rail services.

On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 22:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>
>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>
>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>
>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>
>Not with a Scottish bus pass…
>
>The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>rail services.
>
Having just gone through three or four different TfL pages, they all
say this or a variation thereof :-

"Customers with an Annual Gold Card , 16-25, Senior, HM Forces,
Disabled Persons or 26-30 Digital Railcard can also get a discount set
on an Oyster card, to get a 1/3 off:
•Off-peak pay as you go fares
•Daily caps for travel made during off peak hours"
[https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/761219/response/1819311/attach/5/2650196521Book%203%20Discounts%20and%20Photocards%201%20March%202021%20final.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1}
[https://tinyurl.com/5brs2e45] -
[Your staff guide to fares and ticketing]

TfL buses don't get mentioned as an exception.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 22:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>
>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>
>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>
>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>
>> Not with a Scottish bus pass…
>>
>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>> rail services.
>>
> Having just gone through three or four different TfL pages, they all
> say this or a variation thereof :-
>
> "Customers with an Annual Gold Card , 16-25, Senior, HM Forces,
> Disabled Persons or 26-30 Digital Railcard can also get a discount set
> on an Oyster card, to get a 1/3 off:
> •Off-peak pay as you go fares
> •Daily caps for travel made during off peak hours"
> [https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/761219/response/1819311/attach/5/2650196521Book%203%20Discounts%20and%20Photocards%201%20March%202021%20final.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1}
> [https://tinyurl.com/5brs2e45] -
> [Your staff guide to fares and ticketing]
>
> TfL buses don't get mentioned as an exception.
>

I've already posted the link that says, "Your National Railcard gives you
discounts on the Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National
Rail services".

————

So, not taxis, buses, trams, cable cars or boats.

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/national-railcard-discount

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 01:26:51 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 22:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>
>>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>>
>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass?
>>>
>>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>>> rail services.
>>>
>> Having just gone through three or four different TfL pages, they all
>> say this or a variation thereof :-
>>
>> "Customers with an Annual Gold Card , 16-25, Senior, HM Forces,
>> Disabled Persons or 26-30 Digital Railcard can also get a discount set
>> on an Oyster card, to get a 1/3 off:
>> ?Off-peak pay as you go fares
>> ?Daily caps for travel made during off peak hours"
>> [https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/761219/response/1819311/attach/5/2650196521Book%203%20Discounts%20and%20Photocards%201%20March%202021%20final.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1}
>> [https://tinyurl.com/5brs2e45] -
>> [Your staff guide to fares and ticketing]
>>
>> TfL buses don't get mentioned as an exception.
>>
>
>I've already posted the link that says, "Your National Railcard gives you
>discounts on the Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National
>Rail services".
>
>————
>
>So, not taxis, buses, trams, cable cars or boats.
>
>https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/national-railcard-discount
>
It doesn't say any of those are excluded other than implicitly where
they do not come within "off-peak pay as you go travel". Perhaps
somebody who has one with a relevant day's travel can check their
Oyster history to see where the 30% gets shaved off?

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 01:26:51 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 22:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>>>
>>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass?
>>>>
>>>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>>>> rail services.
>>>>
>>> Having just gone through three or four different TfL pages, they all
>>> say this or a variation thereof :-
>>>
>>> "Customers with an Annual Gold Card , 16-25, Senior, HM Forces,
>>> Disabled Persons or 26-30 Digital Railcard can also get a discount set
>>> on an Oyster card, to get a 1/3 off:
>>> ?Off-peak pay as you go fares
>>> ?Daily caps for travel made during off peak hours"
>>> [https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/761219/response/1819311/attach/5/2650196521Book%203%20Discounts%20and%20Photocards%201%20March%202021%20final.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1}
>>> [https://tinyurl.com/5brs2e45] -
>>> [Your staff guide to fares and ticketing]
>>>
>>> TfL buses don't get mentioned as an exception.
>>>
>>
>> I've already posted the link that says, "Your National Railcard gives you
>> discounts on the Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National
>> Rail services".
>>
>> ————
>>
>> So, not taxis, buses, trams, cable cars or boats.
>>
>> https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/national-railcard-discount
>>
> It doesn't say any of those are excluded other than implicitly where
> they do not come within "off-peak pay as you go travel". Perhaps
> somebody who has one with a relevant day's travel can check their
> Oyster history to see where the 30% gets shaved off?
>

That's probably predictable. More interesting might be how the caps work in
such cases.

On 22/02/2023 22:29, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>
>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>
>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>
>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>
> Not with a Scottish bus pass…

Or Welsh, but I'm assuming the OP didn't make a day trip from Scotland.

>
> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
> rail services.
>

But if you have a senior railcard it means you are entitled to a senior
bus pass so travel on London buses should be free.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 22/02/2023 22:29, Recliner wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>
>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>
>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>
>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>
>> Not with a Scottish bus pass…
>
> Or Welsh, but I'm assuming the OP didn't make a day trip from Scotland.
>
>>
>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>> rail services.
>>
>
> But if you have a senior railcard it means you are entitled to a senior
> bus pass so travel on London buses should be free.
>

No, not necessarily. The age for a senior rail card is 60, but for an
English bus pass is 66. And non-English bus pass holders don't get free
travel on London buses.

On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 22:15:04 +0000, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>
>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>
>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>
>If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.

Not if you live in Scotland :-)

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 02:21:53 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 01:26:51 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 22:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass?
>>>>>
>>>>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>>>>> rail services.
>>>>>
>>>> Having just gone through three or four different TfL pages, they all
>>>> say this or a variation thereof :-
>>>>
>>>> "Customers with an Annual Gold Card , 16-25, Senior, HM Forces,
>>>> Disabled Persons or 26-30 Digital Railcard can also get a discount set
>>>> on an Oyster card, to get a 1/3 off:
>>>> ?Off-peak pay as you go fares
>>>> ?Daily caps for travel made during off peak hours"
>>>> [https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/761219/response/1819311/attach/5/2650196521Book%203%20Discounts%20and%20Photocards%201%20March%202021%20final.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1}
>>>> [https://tinyurl.com/5brs2e45] -
>>>> [Your staff guide to fares and ticketing]
>>>>
>>>> TfL buses don't get mentioned as an exception.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I've already posted the link that says, "Your National Railcard gives you
>>> discounts on the Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National
>>> Rail services".
>>>
>>> ????
>>>
>>> So, not taxis, buses, trams, cable cars or boats.
>>>
>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/national-railcard-discount
>>>
>> It doesn't say any of those are excluded other than implicitly where
>> they do not come within "off-peak pay as you go travel". Perhaps
>> somebody who has one with a relevant day's travel can check their
>> Oyster history to see where the 30% gets shaved off?
>>
>That's probably predictable. More interesting might be how the caps work in
>such cases.

Indeed. I assume there is no mechanism to adjust the cap according to
the mix of journeys. You could argue if your final journey of the day
is by bus, you are getting it free though I very much doubt that the
allocation works in that way.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 22/02/2023 22:29, Recliner wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>
>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>
>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>
>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>
>> Not with a Scottish bus pass…
>
> Or Welsh, but I'm assuming the OP didn't make a day trip from Scotland.

He didn't say it was a day trip, just 'a trip'.

On 22/02/2023 22:29, Recliner wrote:
> Not with a Scottish bus pass…
>
> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
> rail services.

People are also often confused by thinking of trams as part of the bus
system but like trains, bus passes do not include them out of area.

The older tram systems were just part of the bus network from what I
remember.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 02:21:53 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 01:26:51 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 22:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>>>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>>>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>>>>>> rail services.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Having just gone through three or four different TfL pages, they all
>>>>> say this or a variation thereof :-
>>>>>
>>>>> "Customers with an Annual Gold Card , 16-25, Senior, HM Forces,
>>>>> Disabled Persons or 26-30 Digital Railcard can also get a discount set
>>>>> on an Oyster card, to get a 1/3 off:
>>>>> ?Off-peak pay as you go fares
>>>>> ?Daily caps for travel made during off peak hours"
>>>>> [https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/761219/response/1819311/attach/5/2650196521Book%203%20Discounts%20and%20Photocards%201%20March%202021%20final.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1}
>>>>> [https://tinyurl.com/5brs2e45] -
>>>>> [Your staff guide to fares and ticketing]
>>>>>
>>>>> TfL buses don't get mentioned as an exception.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've already posted the link that says, "Your National Railcard gives you
>>>> discounts on the Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National
>>>> Rail services".
>>>>
>>>> ????
>>>>
>>>> So, not taxis, buses, trams, cable cars or boats.
>>>>
>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/national-railcard-discount
>>>>
>>> It doesn't say any of those are excluded other than implicitly where
>>> they do not come within "off-peak pay as you go travel". Perhaps
>>> somebody who has one with a relevant day's travel can check their
>>> Oyster history to see where the 30% gets shaved off?
>>>
>> That's probably predictable. More interesting might be how the caps work in
>> such cases.
>
> Indeed. I assume there is no mechanism to adjust the cap according to
> the mix of journeys. You could argue if your final journey of the day
> is by bus, you are getting it free though I very much doubt that the
> allocation works in that way.
>

The algorithm I'd expect, but have no evidence, is that the same caps would
still apply. So, rail journeys would get their promised discounts, and
other journeys would not, but the cap wouldn't be reduced just because some
journeys had a discount. Alternatively, the cap might be based on the
undiscounted fares, with the actual rail portion of the day's spend
subsequently being discounted. In effect, this would lower the cap by up to
a third (but not at all, if all the journeys were by bus or tram).

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 22/02/2023 22:29, Recliner wrote:
>> Not with a Scottish bus pass…
>>
>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>> rail services.
>
> People are also often confused by thinking of trams as part of the bus
> system but like trains, bus passes do not include them out of area.

It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
but English bus passes aren't valid on them.

In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>
>I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>card.

No, it's a promise that's still being broken.

>If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>overcharged

In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
payment methods would facilitate.

>and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?

There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.

>Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?

Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?

>Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>card is used?

From the TfL website:

"Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"

But from the card's T&C:

"Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
Underground and DLR tickets."

Left hand/right hand?

>I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>(thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>offer one-third discount for a Railcard.

As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
separated from using the Victoria Line etc.

If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
we think.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tt7d30$1rajl$6@dont-email.me>, at 09:53:36 on Thu, 23 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 22/02/2023 22:29, Recliner wrote:
>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass…
>>>
>>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>>> rail services.
>>
>> People are also often confused by thinking of trams as part of the bus
>> system but like trains, bus passes do not include them out of area.
>
>It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>but English bus passes aren't valid on them.

When the current Nottingham Tram system was introduced, it was priced as
if it was a bus, and included on all-day-bus-tickets.

However, to finance Phase 2 it became a completely separate network.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 09:53:36 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 02:21:53 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 01:26:51 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 22:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>>>>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>>>>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>>>>>>> rail services.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Having just gone through three or four different TfL pages, they all
>>>>>> say this or a variation thereof :-
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Customers with an Annual Gold Card , 16-25, Senior, HM Forces,
>>>>>> Disabled Persons or 26-30 Digital Railcard can also get a discount set
>>>>>> on an Oyster card, to get a 1/3 off:
>>>>>> ?Off-peak pay as you go fares
>>>>>> ?Daily caps for travel made during off peak hours"
>>>>>> [https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/761219/response/1819311/attach/5/2650196521Book%203%20Discounts%20and%20Photocards%201%20March%202021%20final.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1}
>>>>>> [https://tinyurl.com/5brs2e45] -
>>>>>> [Your staff guide to fares and ticketing]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TfL buses don't get mentioned as an exception.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've already posted the link that says, "Your National Railcard gives you
>>>>> discounts on the Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National
>>>>> Rail services".
>>>>>
>>>>> ????
>>>>>
>>>>> So, not taxis, buses, trams, cable cars or boats.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/national-railcard-discount
>>>>>
>>>> It doesn't say any of those are excluded other than implicitly where
>>>> they do not come within "off-peak pay as you go travel". Perhaps
>>>> somebody who has one with a relevant day's travel can check their
>>>> Oyster history to see where the 30% gets shaved off?
>>>>
>>> That's probably predictable. More interesting might be how the caps work in
>>> such cases.
>>
>> Indeed. I assume there is no mechanism to adjust the cap according to
>> the mix of journeys. You could argue if your final journey of the day
>> is by bus, you are getting it free though I very much doubt that the
>> allocation works in that way.
>>
>The algorithm I'd expect, but have no evidence, is that the same caps would
>still apply. So, rail journeys would get their promised discounts, and
>other journeys would not, but the cap wouldn't be reduced just because some
>journeys had a discount. Alternatively, the cap might be based on the
>undiscounted fares, with the actual rail portion of the day's spend
>subsequently being discounted. In effect, this would lower the cap by up to
>a third (but not at all, if all the journeys were by bus or tram).

I was told by a TfL staff member that the cap is reduced by one-third.
I accept this may have been a misunderstanding of a complex subject.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:24:10 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <tt7d30$1rajl$6@dont-email.me>, at 09:53:36 on Thu, 23 Feb
>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> On 22/02/2023 22:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass…
>>>>
>>>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>>>> rail services.
>>>
>>> People are also often confused by thinking of trams as part of the bus
>>> system but like trains, bus passes do not include them out of area.
>>
>>It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>
>When the current Nottingham Tram system was introduced, it was priced as
>if it was a bus, and included on all-day-bus-tickets.
>
>However, to finance Phase 2 it became a completely separate network.

Any further extensions currently planned (as opposed to suggested)?

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>
>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>> card.
>
> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>
>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>> overcharged
>
> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
> payment methods would facilitate.
>
>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>
> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>
>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>
> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>
>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>> card is used?
>
> From the TfL website:
>
> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>
> But from the card's T&C:
>
> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
> Underground and DLR tickets."
>
> Left hand/right hand?

I see no conflict. Both statements are true, and they don't contradict each
other.

>
>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>
> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.

Yes, it can, but why does it matter? The rail card discount applies
equally to both.

>
> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
> we think.

Mixed rail modes are fine, as they all qualify for the same discount, while
bus and tram fares are obviously separate.

One other issue is that Oyster doesn't cover some TfL routes, such as to
Reading, and the cc cards used on those journeys don't yet get the rail
card discount.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 09:44:22 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 22/02/2023 22:29, Recliner wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>
>>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>>
>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass…
>>
>> Or Welsh, but I'm assuming the OP didn't make a day trip from Scotland.
>
>He didn't say it was a day trip, just 'a trip'.
>
As OP, I can confirm the trip lasted seven days in total. I hold a
Scottish 'National Entitlement Card' (as it is known) but this cannot
be used in England.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 09:48:46 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 22/02/2023 22:29, Recliner wrote:
>> Not with a Scottish bus pass…
>>
>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>> rail services.
>
>People are also often confused by thinking of trams as part of the bus
>system but like trains, bus passes do not include them out of area.
>
>The older tram systems were just part of the bus network from what I
>remember.
>
No. The buses were part of the tram network :-)

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tt7d30$1rajl$6@dont-email.me>, at 09:53:36 on Thu, 23 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> On 22/02/2023 22:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass…
>>>>
>>>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>>>> rail services.
>>>
>>> People are also often confused by thinking of trams as part of the bus
>>> system but like trains, bus passes do not include them out of area.
>>
>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>
> When the current Nottingham Tram system was introduced, it was priced as
> if it was a bus, and included on all-day-bus-tickets.

But I don't think it was ever included in English national bus passes?

>
> However, to finance Phase 2 it became a completely separate network.

Yes, I see that an all-day tram ticket is £4.70, while £5.70 gets you an
all-day tram, bus and train ticket, valid in the Greater Nottingham City
area.

https://www.thetram.net/tickets/one-off-tickets

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>
>>I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>card.
>
>No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>
>>If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>overcharged
>
>In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>payment methods would facilitate.
>
>>and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>
>There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>
>>Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>
>Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>
>>Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>card is used?
>
>From the TfL website:
>
> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>
>But from the card's T&C:
>
> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
> Underground and DLR tickets."
>
>Left hand/right hand?
>
>>I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>(thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>
>As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>
>If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>we think.

No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
journey). My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
journeys are effectively freebies.