In message <tt8ncq$1vp4h$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:55:38 on Thu, 23 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>> I thought the cap applied to all journeys within the Zone(s).
>
>Yes. 'Railway (with/without bus or tram)' is just a longer, more accurate
>way of saying 'all modes'. TfL's wording is:
>
> - Cap for bus and tram journeys
> - Cap for bus, Tube, tram, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and
>National Rail journeys in London
>
>So, the cable car and river boats aren't included in either cap.

And just to avoid any further confusion, is Overground counted as
"National Rail"?
--
Roland Perry

In message <tt8m86$1vkru$6@dont-email.me>, at 21:36:06 on Thu, 23 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tt82hg$1ti7h$5@dont-email.me>, at 15:59:44 on Thu, 23 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <otvevhhime9g482074fks8s0u5hpncgj63@4ax.com>, at 15:10:04 on
>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Previous discussion suggests there is a de facto rail cap of
>>>>>>> two-thirds of the full cap for Oyster cards linked with Railcards
>>>>>>> (£5.13 in your example).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's an example of how I think it should work:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Journey Std fare Cumulative Actual
>>>>>> fare charged after cap and discount
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bus £1.65 £1.65 £1.65
>>>>>> Train Z2-1 £2.60 £4.25 £1.73
>>>>>> Bus (<60 min) £0.00 £4.25 £0.00
>>>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £6.75 £1.67
>>>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £9.25 £0.95
>>>>>> Train Z1-2 £2.60 £11.85 £0.00
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, the total fares paid would be £6, or a discount of 22% in this case.
>>>>>
>>>>> What would happen if you went above the cap? Supposing you ran up £26
>>>>> of tube fares, all subject to one third off [£17.33]. Would you then
>>>>> pay the same capped amount (£7.70) as someone with no Railcard?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I didn't know about the bus cap. I assume this is for buses only.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It applies if you only use buses in the period in question. Note that
>>>>>> bus fares aren't zoned, so this cap applies to all
>>>>>> London buses.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is the bus cap forfeited if you travel on the tube at any time during
>>>>> the day? Suppose you travel on lots of buses and one tube, would you
>>>>> pay £4.95 + £2.50 = £7.45 or £7.70 (price cap)?
>>>>
>>>> In general terms, if you exceed the price cap - by embarking on many, or
>>>> expensive, sectors during the day - then it doesn't really matter how
>>>> many or how expensive they are, or even what they add up to.
>>>>
>>>>> Would it be the Z1-2 price cap or all the zones where the buses went?
>>>>
>>>> If you caught a one-off bus from Z2 to Z3, then the cap appropriate for
>>>> Z1-3 would apply.
>>>
>>> Not so. Bus journeys aren't zoned.
>>
>> I suppose that makes some sense, because they can't tell where you got
>> off the bus.
>>
>>>> Z1-3 Anytime & Off-Peak Adult £9.00
>>>> Anytime + Railcard £9.00
>>>> Offpeak + Railcard £5.95
>>>
>>> How do you get that?
>>
>> Off the TfL site's fare-finder.
>
>It says, : A Travelcard or pay as you go cap does not exist for your zone
>combination. We have shown the best options for your journey."

It's not 5th March yet.
--
Roland Perry

In message <6gkfvhh963hju1amhmkj3mrp0gn6jmli9k@4ax.com>, at 21:05:41 on
Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 20:07:46 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <4hmevhlutof14o9unb73q8j2o2m7ik3qob@4ax.com>, at 12:27:46 on
>>Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:28:31 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <nsgevhp2m7u6d74lesnc4b7c8ubaftuacs@4ax.com>, at 10:47:49 on
>>>>Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>card.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>overcharged
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>card is used?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>From the TfL website:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>>>(thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>>Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>>>offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>>>the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>>>at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>>>don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>>>we think.
>>>>>
>>>>>No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>journey). My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>
>>>>I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>
>>>Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>
>>The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't necessarily the same
>>as the National Rail fare between A and B (via perhaps D). So the fare
>>you are discounting by a third won't be the same. But at least it'd be
>>clear which of the two to discount.
>>
>Where multiple routes are available there are nearly always pink
>Oyster readers at an interchange point which have to be touched
>otherwise the journey usually but not always** defaults to the higher
>fare. Journeys from A to B via the same sequence of zones do not
>generally take account of whose trains are used otherwise e.g. you
>would have to determine whose trains were used to get from Harrow to
>Clapham Junction.

Assuming people used the more expensive kind of train is clearly going
to satisfy TfL's bean counters, but may invalidate various sweeping
statements made by the marketing people about Oyster always charging the
right fare.

>** Journeys via the West London Line can default to the lower fare
>depending on the origin and destination.
>
>>However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking to one mode
>>all the way, the undiscounted fare is difficult to know especially when
>>the system can't tell where you made the modal change (in the
>>circumstances there are no barriers to go through where you change
>>modes).

--
Roland Perry

On 24.02.23 14:19, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tt8ncq$1vp4h$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:55:38 on Thu, 23 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> I thought the cap applied to all journeys within the Zone(s).
>>
>> Yes. 'Railway (with/without bus or tram)' is just a longer, more accurate
>> way of saying 'all modes'. TfL's wording is:
>>
>> - Cap for bus and tram journeys
>> - Cap for bus, Tube, tram, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and
>> National Rail journeys in London
>>
>> So, the cable car and river boats aren't included in either cap.
>
> And just to avoid any further confusion, is Overground counted as
> "National Rail"?

That rather depends on how you chose to define "National Rail", as it is
a bit of an ill defined term. As the cap explicitly states both
overground and national rail, it avoids confusion even if it is
potentially redundant.

Robin

On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:13:08 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <tta5v4$26ps5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:10:28 on Fri, 24 Feb
>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>Why would anyone drive 2 miles into central nottingham and faff around with
>>trying to park if they can get on a tram?
>
>Maybe the several thousand car parking spaces (if they are going
>shopping) would attract them. Then of course, only a subset are using

You still have to get to them through the traffic. Nottingham is hardly
London but its not exactly traffic free either.

>their car to go somewhere the tram would be a useful substitute.
>
>Compton Acres is entirely east of the tram line; how far would *you*
>walk to a tram stop, if there was a bus stop closer? 5 minutes, 10
>minutes...?

I'd walk much further to get a reliable tram service than some bus that turns
up if it can be bothered. I used to walk half a mile to a tube stop.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 23/02/2023 10:42, Scott wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 09:44:22 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 22/02/2023 22:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass…
>>>>
>>>> Or Welsh, but I'm assuming the OP didn't make a day trip from Scotland.
>>>
>>> He didn't say it was a day trip, just 'a trip'.
>>>
>> As OP, I can confirm the trip lasted seven days in total. I hold a
>> Scottish 'National Entitlement Card' (as it is known) but this cannot
>> be used in England.
>
> Just as the English one is not valid in Scotland. Something I kept
> having to remind myself about when hopping on and off buses in Edinburgh.

Did you use your charge card and hit the daily/weekly/whatever cap?

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 23/02/2023 08:45, Graeme Wall wrote:
> But if you have a senior railcard it means you are entitled to a senior bus pass so travel on London buses should be free.
>
Not if you live in Scotland or Wales.

--
Clive Page

On 24/02/2023 16:41, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 23/02/2023 10:42, Scott wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 09:44:22 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 22/02/2023 22:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>>>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>>>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass…
>>>>>
>>>>> Or Welsh, but I'm assuming the OP didn't make a day trip from Scotland.
>>>>
>>>> He didn't say it was a day trip, just 'a trip'.
>>>>
>>> As OP, I can confirm the trip lasted seven days in total. I hold a
>>> Scottish 'National Entitlement Card' (as it is known) but this cannot
>>> be used in England.
>>
>> Just as the English one is not valid in Scotland. Something I kept
>> having to remind myself about when hopping on and off buses in Edinburgh.
>
> Did you use your charge card and hit the daily/weekly/whatever cap?
>

Didn't quite use them enough to hit the cap that trip.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:26:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>
>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>
>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>
>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>> to the south.
>>
>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>> apply - arguably :-)
>>
>No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>islands.

I was not being entirely serious. I thought three smileys might have
provided an adequate clue.

In message <tt8lst$1vjde$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:30:05 on Thu, 23 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <2nnevhpvn21642069bmvpef37r5adtu8nj@4ax.com>, at 12:43:35 on
>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:21:09 +0000, Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 23/02/2023 11:44, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>> All Tube trips are included.
>>>>
>>>> The first part certainly implies that some or all Tube trips are
>>>> included, but how does that reconcile with "Railcard discounts do
>>>> not apply to ... most London Underground ... tickets"? Genuine
>>>> question; I'm not trying to pick holes in anyone's argument.
>>>
>>> The key word is *tickets*. Oyster card users don't have tickets.
>>
>> Oh, I see, the relevant word being "fares".
>>
>>> Cc card users also don't get the discount, as there isn't yet a way of
>>> registering a rail card to a cc card.
>>>
>>>> It might mean that rail tickets with a Maltese cross attract a
>>>> discount despite being valid on the Tube, but "London Underground
>>>> tickets" valid only on the Tube[1] do not, but other comments imply
>>>> that it is much more liberal.
>>>
>>> Registered Oyster users get the rail card discount, others don't.
>>
>> However, only off-peak; so not Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and
>> from 1600 to 1900.
>>
>> Which is slightly more generous than a cardholder might have expected in
>> the morning, but will come as a disappointment for those traveling in
>> the evening peak.
>
>Why would they be disappointed? The railcard discount applies after 09:30
>M-F, and at any time on weekends and public holidays.

Because as it says above: "not ... from 1600 to 1900".
--
Roland Perry

In message <tt8m86$1vkru$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:36:06 on Thu, 23 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tt7jia$1s0hq$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:10 on Thu, 23 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tt7grb$1rnju$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:47 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on
>>>>
>>>> is here a missing "only a few" here...
>>>
>>> No
>>
>> Turns out what's missing is "off peak"
>>
>>>>>>> Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line
>>
>> ...
>>
>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>> simple: all rail fares
>>>>
>>>> Including all tube fares (see left hand/right hand, above)?
>>>
>>> Yes
>>
>> Only off-peak.
>
>Yes, of course, just like rail fares in London and the southeast. The rules
>are the same for NR, LO, EL, LU and DLR trains.

But you can still get a railcard discount on an evening[1] peak train
that requires an Anytime ticket. What seems to be special about the
Oyster scheme is that it excludes that combination.

[1] I think we'll find there's also some trains in the morning where
Railcard rules allow a discount, but the actual train is still,
just, requiring an Anytime paper ticket. (Let's not get down in the
weeds about Oyster tickets on that handful of trains, but it could
go either way if we did).
--
Roland Perry

In message <tt8n65$1vob2$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:05 on Thu, 23 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <4hmevhlutof14o9unb73q8j2o2m7ik3qob@4ax.com>, at 12:27:46 on
>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:28:31 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <nsgevhp2m7u6d74lesnc4b7c8ubaftuacs@4ax.com>, at 10:47:49 on
>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>> journey). My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>
>>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>
>>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>
>> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't necessarily the same
>> as the National Rail fare between A and B (via perhaps D). So the fare
>> you are discounting by a third won't be the same. But at least it'd be
>> clear which of the two to discount.
>>
>> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking to one mode
>> all the way, the undiscounted fare is difficult to know especially when
>> the system can't tell where you made the modal change (in the
>> circumstances there are no barriers to go through where you change
>> modes).
>
>Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations like Farringdon
>and Stratford.

But not, as we've discussed before, at SPILL. There may be other
locations not provisioned as well. Wimbledon probably has them (hence
the complicated, and confusing for some visitors, rules about touching
in/out/sideways when changing there. Does Stratford have them for the
cross-platform changes with the Central Line (I haven't been to look at
that specific aspect).
--
Roland Perry

In message <ttamqc$28hft$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:58:04 on Fri, 24 Feb
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:13:08 +0000
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>In message <tta5v4$26ps5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:10:28 on Fri, 24 Feb
>>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>Why would anyone drive 2 miles into central nottingham and faff around with
>>>trying to park if they can get on a tram?
>>
>>Maybe the several thousand car parking spaces (if they are going
>>shopping) would attract them. Then of course, only a subset are using
>
>You still have to get to them through the traffic. Nottingham is hardly
>London but its not exactly traffic free either.

I lived in Compton Acres for a while, just before moving back to
Cambridgeshire. The traffic from there to the City Centre wasn't a
problem. In fact it used to be quite difficult to remember to keep to
30mph on the urban dual carriageway

>>their car to go somewhere the tram would be a useful substitute.
>>
>>Compton Acres is entirely east of the tram line; how far would *you*
>>walk to a tram stop, if there was a bus stop closer? 5 minutes, 10
>>minutes...?
>
>I'd walk much further to get a reliable tram service than some bus that turns
>up if it can be bothered.

The buses there are very reliable.

>I used to walk half a mile to a tube stop.

Because the bus stop was further, or just because they weren't reliable?
How far was the end-to-end trip. If only a couple of miles (which is
what we are talking about in Rushcliffe) then a half mile diversion at
the start is quite significant.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tt8m86$1vkru$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:36:06 on Thu, 23 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tt7jia$1s0hq$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:10 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <tt7grb$1rnju$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:47 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on
>>>>>
>>>>> is here a missing "only a few" here...
>>>>
>>>> No
>>>
>>> Turns out what's missing is "off peak"
>>>
>>>>>>>> Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>> simple: all rail fares
>>>>>
>>>>> Including all tube fares (see left hand/right hand, above)?
>>>>
>>>> Yes
>>>
>>> Only off-peak.
>>
>> Yes, of course, just like rail fares in London and the southeast. The rules
>> are the same for NR, LO, EL, LU and DLR trains.
>
> But you can still get a railcard discount on an evening[1] peak train
> that requires an Anytime ticket. What seems to be special about the
> Oyster scheme is that it excludes that combination.

Does it? The Oyster railcard discount applies from 9:30 onwards.

>
> [1] I think we'll find there's also some trains in the morning where
> Railcard rules allow a discount, but the actual train is still,
> just, requiring an Anytime paper ticket. (Let's not get down in the
> weeds about Oyster tickets on that handful of trains, but it could
> go either way if we did).

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tt8lst$1vjde$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:30:05 on Thu, 23 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <2nnevhpvn21642069bmvpef37r5adtu8nj@4ax.com>, at 12:43:35 on
>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:21:09 +0000, Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 23/02/2023 11:44, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>> All Tube trips are included.
>>>>>
>>>>> The first part certainly implies that some or all Tube trips are
>>>>> included, but how does that reconcile with "Railcard discounts do
>>>>> not apply to ... most London Underground ... tickets"? Genuine
>>>>> question; I'm not trying to pick holes in anyone's argument.
>>>>
>>>> The key word is *tickets*. Oyster card users don't have tickets.
>>>
>>> Oh, I see, the relevant word being "fares".
>>>
>>>> Cc card users also don't get the discount, as there isn't yet a way of
>>>> registering a rail card to a cc card.
>>>>
>>>>> It might mean that rail tickets with a Maltese cross attract a
>>>>> discount despite being valid on the Tube, but "London Underground
>>>>> tickets" valid only on the Tube[1] do not, but other comments imply
>>>>> that it is much more liberal.
>>>>
>>>> Registered Oyster users get the rail card discount, others don't.
>>>
>>> However, only off-peak; so not Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and
>>> from 1600 to 1900.
>>>
>>> Which is slightly more generous than a cardholder might have expected in
>>> the morning, but will come as a disappointment for those traveling in
>>> the evening peak.
>>
>> Why would they be disappointed? The railcard discount applies after 09:30
>> M-F, and at any time on weekends and public holidays.
>
> Because as it says above: "not ... from 1600 to 1900".

Where?

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tt8n65$1vob2$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:05 on Thu, 23 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <4hmevhlutof14o9unb73q8j2o2m7ik3qob@4ax.com>, at 12:27:46 on
>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:28:31 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <nsgevhp2m7u6d74lesnc4b7c8ubaftuacs@4ax.com>, at 10:47:49 on
>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>> journey). My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>
>>>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>>
>>>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>>
>>> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't necessarily the same
>>> as the National Rail fare between A and B (via perhaps D). So the fare
>>> you are discounting by a third won't be the same. But at least it'd be
>>> clear which of the two to discount.
>>>
>>> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking to one mode
>>> all the way, the undiscounted fare is difficult to know especially when
>>> the system can't tell where you made the modal change (in the
>>> circumstances there are no barriers to go through where you change
>>> modes).
>>
>> Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations like Farringdon
>> and Stratford.
>
> But not, as we've discussed before, at SPILL.

Please remind me — why would they be needed?

> There may be other
> locations not provisioned as well. Wimbledon probably has them (hence
> the complicated, and confusing for some visitors, rules about touching
> in/out/sideways when changing there. Does Stratford have them for the
> cross-platform changes with the Central Line (I haven't been to look at
> that specific aspect).

I'm not sure, but why would they be needed? LE and LU are treated as one.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 22:42:21 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 23/02/2023 18:46, Scott wrote:
>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>> apply - arguably ?
>
>You cannot REjoin something that you have not previously been a member.

True. I normally pride myself on pedantry but on this occasion I have
slipped up.

Taking it to a new level of pedantry though, I was reporting what the
SNP wants. They say they want to rejoin, even if the concept is
mistaken.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 22:12:40 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 23/02/2023 21:26, Recliner wrote:
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>>
>>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>>> to the south.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>>> islands.
>>>
>> I thought joining Schengen was compulsory when joining the EU now?
>
>No, not all EU members are in Schengen, and not all Schengen members are in
>the EU, or have any intention of joining.
>
>>
>> How are we going to organise the border for those crossing it on the train.
>
>No different to the Dublin-Belfast trains.
>
Republic of Ireland is not in Schengen so totally different.

On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:16:32 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <tt9tfh$25ttp$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:45:37 on Fri, 24 Feb
>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
>>> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
>>> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible. It would be the
>>> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.
>>
>>Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.
>
>I used to think that in event of Brexit, then "the UK would stay in the
>Single Market" for similar reasons. And look what happened.

I interpreted 'taking back control' as departing from EU regulations
with the inevitable consequence of leaving the single market. This
was my biggest concern.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 22:12:40 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 23/02/2023 21:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>>>> to the south.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>>>> islands.
>>>>
>>> I thought joining Schengen was compulsory when joining the EU now?
>>
>> No, not all EU members are in Schengen, and not all Schengen members are in
>> the EU, or have any intention of joining.
>>
>>>
>>> How are we going to organise the border for those crossing it on the train.
>>
>> No different to the Dublin-Belfast trains.
>>
> Republic of Ireland is not in Schengen so totally different.
>

And nor will Scotland. It will remain in the CTA. So, exactly the same as
the Irish example.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:16:32 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <tt9tfh$25ttp$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:45:37 on Fri, 24 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
>>>> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
>>>> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible. It would be the
>>>> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.
>>>
>>> Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.
>>
>> I used to think that in event of Brexit, then "the UK would stay in the
>> Single Market" for similar reasons. And look what happened.
>
> I interpreted 'taking back control' as departing from EU regulations
> with the inevitable consequence of leaving the single market. This
> was my biggest concern.

Yes, some of the demands of the ERG and its ilk made staying in the single
market impossible (no free movement of people, no role for the ECJ, freedom
to diverge from EU rules in any areas we chose).

On 25.02.23 08:13, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tt8n65$1vob2$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:05 on Thu, 23 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <4hmevhlutof14o9unb73q8j2o2m7ik3qob@4ax.com>, at 12:27:46 on
>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:28:31 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <nsgevhp2m7u6d74lesnc4b7c8ubaftuacs@4ax.com>, at
>>>>> 10:47:49 on
>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>> 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London.  My Oyster card is
>>>>>>>> linked
>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or
>>>>>>>> credit
>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to
>>>>>>> do that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting
>>>>>>>> terms
>>>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems
>>>>>>>> illogical to
>>>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you
>>>>>>> used by
>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example
>>>>>>> touching in
>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate
>>>>>>> gates, I
>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>> journey).  My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>
>>>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>>
>>>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>>
>>> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't necessarily the same
>>> as the National Rail fare between A and B (via perhaps D). So the fare
>>> you are discounting by a third won't be the same. But at least it'd be
>>> clear which of the two to discount.
>>>
>>> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking to one mode
>>> all the way, the undiscounted fare is difficult to know especially when
>>> the system can't tell where you made the modal change (in the
>>> circumstances there are no barriers to go through where you change
>>> modes).
>>
>> Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations like
>> Farringdon
>> and Stratford.
>
> But not, as we've discussed before, at SPILL.

They're on the gates, and you can't make an interchange there without
passing through the gateline.

Robin

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 25.02.23 08:13, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tt8n65$1vob2$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:05 on Thu, 23 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <4hmevhlutof14o9unb73q8j2o2m7ik3qob@4ax.com>, at 12:27:46 on
>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:28:31 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <nsgevhp2m7u6d74lesnc4b7c8ubaftuacs@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>> 10:47:49 on
>>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>> 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London.  My Oyster card is
>>>>>>>>> linked
>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or
>>>>>>>>> credit
>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to
>>>>>>>> do that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting
>>>>>>>>> terms
>>>>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems
>>>>>>>>> illogical to
>>>>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you
>>>>>>>> used by
>>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example
>>>>>>>> touching in
>>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate
>>>>>>>> gates, I
>>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those
>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>>> journey).  My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>>>
>>>> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't necessarily the same
>>>> as the National Rail fare between A and B (via perhaps D). So the fare
>>>> you are discounting by a third won't be the same. But at least it'd be
>>>> clear which of the two to discount.
>>>>
>>>> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking to one mode
>>>> all the way, the undiscounted fare is difficult to know especially when
>>>> the system can't tell where you made the modal change (in the
>>>> circumstances there are no barriers to go through where you change
>>>> modes).
>>>
>>> Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations like
>>> Farringdon
>>> and Stratford.
>>
>> But not, as we've discussed before, at SPILL.
>
> They're on the gates, and you can't make an interchange there without
> passing through the gateline.
>

From memory, I think Roland envisaged a case where someone on a TL train
wants to change between Oyster and <some other ticket> on the TL platform
itself. So he wants Oyster pads along platforms A and B.

On 25/02/2023 10:09, Scott wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:16:32 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <tt9tfh$25ttp$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:45:37 on Fri, 24 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
>>>> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
>>>> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible. It would be the
>>>> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.
>>>
>>> Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.
>>
>> I used to think that in event of Brexit, then "the UK would stay in the
>> Single Market" for similar reasons. And look what happened.
>
> I interpreted 'taking back control' as departing from EU regulations
> with the inevitable consequence of leaving the single market. This
> was my biggest concern.

We were assured at the time by one, then senior, politician that we
would remain in the single market, it would be the easiest deal ever.

The "Taking back control" nonsense originally was only about immigration.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 10:49:25 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 25/02/2023 10:09, Scott wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:16:32 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <tt9tfh$25ttp$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:45:37 on Fri, 24 Feb
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
>>>>> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
>>>>> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible. It would be the
>>>>> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.
>>>
>>> I used to think that in event of Brexit, then "the UK would stay in the
>>> Single Market" for similar reasons. And look what happened.
>>
>> I interpreted 'taking back control' as departing from EU regulations
>> with the inevitable consequence of leaving the single market. This
>> was my biggest concern.
>
>We were assured at the time by one, then senior, politician that we
>would remain in the single market, it would be the easiest deal ever.
>
>The "Taking back control" nonsense originally was only about immigration.

Given that free movement of people is part of the rules for the single market, that aspect of 'taking back control'
alone was enough to force us out of the single market ("free movement of goods, services, capital and persons in a
single EU internal market. By removing technical, legal and bureaucratic barriers, the EU also allows citizens to trade
and do business freely.").

Ironically, I think these EU rules were inspired and pushed hard by St Hilda, the patron saint of the ERG Church.