In message <3qnevh955r0lsf72eb5rsp07nt8e0cg2rc@4ax.com>, at 12:49:07 on
Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:

>>>>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>
>>>>Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>simple: all rail fares have the discount applied before being added to the
>>>>running total. If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all
>>>>modes are free (in the same zones, of course).
>>>>
>>>This would mean using a reduced cap. Surely this would then create
>>>confusion if a bus journey were to be interspersed?
>>
>>They contribute to the cap.
>
>But which cap? If I reach the rail cap then get on a bus, does the
>ticket machine on the bus then calculate the composite cap for the
>relevant mix of bus and rail fares before deciding how much to charge?

Isn't the point of Oyster that the *Smart*card itself calculates the
fare (not the bus, nor indeed the ticket barrier on the tube)? Or for
CCC an overnight batch process.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 14:11:59 +0000, Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:50:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:13:02 +0000, Recliner
>><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:49:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:37:18 +0000, Recliner
>>>><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:22:04 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:57:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>>>> journey).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
>>>>>>>even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>As is any journey once the cap is reached. The question is whether
>>>>>>the bus operator gets any part of the fare or are they paid a contract
>>>>>>rate to run the service irrespective of the number of passengers? I
>>>>>>thought there might be an incentive payment, but I genuinely don't
>>>>>>know.
>>>>>
>>>>>I think London bus operators are just paid a fee to run the service. The fare revenues certainly don't affect their fees
>>>>>(remember that, for one reason or another, most passengers aren't paying bus fares). The numbers of passengers are
>>>>>counted, but I'm not sure if it affects the fees they receive. They are probably rewarded/penalised based on quality
>>>>>factors, like cancelled buses, poor maintenance, punctuality, passenger complaint rates, cleanliness, etc.
>>>>
>>>>This is probably right. Like SQUIRE on ScotRail.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>>>simple: all rail fares have the discount applied before being added to the
>>>>>>>running total. If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all
>>>>>>>modes are free (in the same zones, of course).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>This would mean using a reduced cap. Surely this would then create
>>>>>>confusion if a bus journey were to be interspersed?
>>>>>
>>>>>They contribute to the cap.
>>>>
>>>>But which cap? If I reach the rail cap then get on a bus, does the
>>>>ticket machine on the bus then calculate the composite cap for the
>>>>relevant mix of bus and rail fares before deciding how much to charge?
>>>
>>>There isn't a rail cap. There's a bus cap and an all-modes cap. Currently (for a few more days!), the all-modes cap in
>>>Z1-2 is £7.70 and the bus cap (all zones) is £4.95.
>>
>>Previous discussion suggests there is a de facto rail cap of
>>two-thirds of the full cap for Oyster cards linked with Railcards
>>(£5.13 in your example).
>
>Here's an example of how I think it should work:
>
>Journey Std fare Cumulative Actual fare charged after cap and discount
>
>Bus £1.65 £1.65 £1.65
>Train Z2-1 £2.60 £4.25 £1.73
>Bus (<60 min) £0.00 £4.25 £0.00
>Tube Z1 £2.50 £6.75 £1.67
>Tube Z1 £2.50 £9.25 £0.95
>Train Z1-2 £2.60 £11.85 £0.00
>
>So, the total fares paid would be £6, or a discount of 22% in this case.

What would happen if you went above the cap? Supposing you ran up £26
of tube fares, all subject to one third off [£17.33]. Would you then
pay the same capped amount (£7.70) as someone with no Railcard?
>
>> I didn't know about the bus cap. I assume this is for buses only.
>
>It applies if you only use buses in the period in question. Note that bus fares aren't zoned, so this cap applies to all
>London buses.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 14:11:59 +0000, Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:50:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:13:02 +0000, Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:49:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:37:18 +0000, Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:22:04 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:57:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>>>>> journey).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
>>>>>>>> even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As is any journey once the cap is reached. The question is whether
>>>>>>> the bus operator gets any part of the fare or are they paid a contract
>>>>>>> rate to run the service irrespective of the number of passengers? I
>>>>>>> thought there might be an incentive payment, but I genuinely don't
>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think London bus operators are just paid a fee to run the service.
>>>>>> The fare revenues certainly don't affect their fees
>>>>>> (remember that, for one reason or another, most passengers aren't
>>>>>> paying bus fares). The numbers of passengers are
>>>>>> counted, but I'm not sure if it affects the fees they receive. They
>>>>>> are probably rewarded/penalised based on quality
>>>>>> factors, like cancelled buses, poor maintenance, punctuality,
>>>>>> passenger complaint rates, cleanliness, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is probably right. Like SQUIRE on ScotRail.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>>>> simple: all rail fares have the discount applied before being added to the
>>>>>>>> running total. If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all
>>>>>>>> modes are free (in the same zones, of course).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This would mean using a reduced cap. Surely this would then create
>>>>>>> confusion if a bus journey were to be interspersed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They contribute to the cap.
>>>>>
>>>>> But which cap? If I reach the rail cap then get on a bus, does the
>>>>> ticket machine on the bus then calculate the composite cap for the
>>>>> relevant mix of bus and rail fares before deciding how much to charge?
>>>>
>>>> There isn't a rail cap. There's a bus cap and an all-modes cap.
>>>> Currently (for a few more days!), the all-modes cap in
>>>> Z1-2 is £7.70 and the bus cap (all zones) is £4.95.
>>>
>>> Previous discussion suggests there is a de facto rail cap of
>>> two-thirds of the full cap for Oyster cards linked with Railcards
>>> (£5.13 in your example).
>>
>> Here's an example of how I think it should work:
>>
>> Journey Std fare Cumulative Actual fare charged after cap and discount
>>
>> Bus £1.65 £1.65 £1.65
>> Train Z2-1 £2.60 £4.25 £1.73
>> Bus (<60 min) £0.00 £4.25 £0.00
>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £6.75 £1.67
>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £9.25 £0.95
>> Train Z1-2 £2.60 £11.85 £0.00
>>
>> So, the total fares paid would be £6, or a discount of 22% in this case.
>
> What would happen if you went above the cap? Supposing you ran up £26
> of tube fares, all subject to one third off [£17.33]. Would you then
> pay the same capped amount (£7.70) as someone with no Railcard?

In message <otvevhhime9g482074fks8s0u5hpncgj63@4ax.com>, at 15:10:04 on
Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:

>>>Previous discussion suggests there is a de facto rail cap of
>>>two-thirds of the full cap for Oyster cards linked with Railcards
>>>(£5.13 in your example).
>>
>>Here's an example of how I think it should work:
>>
>>Journey Std fare Cumulative Actual fare charged after cap and discount
>>
>>Bus £1.65 £1.65 £1.65
>>Train Z2-1 £2.60 £4.25 £1.73
>>Bus (<60 min) £0.00 £4.25 £0.00
>>Tube Z1 £2.50 £6.75 £1.67
>>Tube Z1 £2.50 £9.25 £0.95
>>Train Z1-2 £2.60 £11.85 £0.00
>>
>>So, the total fares paid would be £6, or a discount of 22% in this case.
>
>What would happen if you went above the cap? Supposing you ran up £26
>of tube fares, all subject to one third off [£17.33]. Would you then
>pay the same capped amount (£7.70) as someone with no Railcard?
>>
>>> I didn't know about the bus cap. I assume this is for buses only.
>>
>>It applies if you only use buses in the period in question. Note that bus fares aren't zoned, so this cap applies to all
>>London buses.
>
>Is the bus cap forfeited if you travel on the tube at any time during
>the day? Suppose you travel on lots of buses and one tube, would you
>pay £4.95 + £2.50 = £7.45 or £7.70 (price cap)?

In general terms, if you exceed the price cap - by embarking on many, or
expensive, sectors during the day - then it doesn't really matter how
many or how expensive they are, or even what they add up to.

>Would it be the Z1-2 price cap or all the zones where the buses went?

If you caught a one-off bus from Z2 to Z3, then the cap appropriate for
Z1-3 would apply. In such circumstances it could potentially be cheaper
to use another payment method for that bus trip to avoid jumping up a
rung.

Z1-2 Anytime & Off-Peak Adult £7.70
Anytime + Railcard £7.70 <<-- the same!
Offpeak + Railcard £5.10 <<-- a third off

Z1-3 Anytime & Off-Peak Adult £9.00
Anytime + Railcard £9.00
Offpeak + Railcard £5.95

So if the your day included some Peak travel, you've be winning if you
could buy a bus ticket for £1.29 or less. (Other pairs of zones, lots of
more lookups required).
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 15:43:45 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 14:11:59 +0000, Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:50:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:13:02 +0000, Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:49:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:37:18 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:22:04 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:57:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>>>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>>>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>>>>>> journey).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
>>>>>>>>> even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As is any journey once the cap is reached. The question is whether
>>>>>>>> the bus operator gets any part of the fare or are they paid a contract
>>>>>>>> rate to run the service irrespective of the number of passengers? I
>>>>>>>> thought there might be an incentive payment, but I genuinely don't
>>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think London bus operators are just paid a fee to run the service.
>>>>>>> The fare revenues certainly don't affect their fees
>>>>>>> (remember that, for one reason or another, most passengers aren't
>>>>>>> paying bus fares). The numbers of passengers are
>>>>>>> counted, but I'm not sure if it affects the fees they receive. They
>>>>>>> are probably rewarded/penalised based on quality
>>>>>>> factors, like cancelled buses, poor maintenance, punctuality,
>>>>>>> passenger complaint rates, cleanliness, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is probably right. Like SQUIRE on ScotRail.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>>>>> simple: all rail fares have the discount applied before being added to the
>>>>>>>>> running total. If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all
>>>>>>>>> modes are free (in the same zones, of course).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This would mean using a reduced cap. Surely this would then create
>>>>>>>> confusion if a bus journey were to be interspersed?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They contribute to the cap.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But which cap? If I reach the rail cap then get on a bus, does the
>>>>>> ticket machine on the bus then calculate the composite cap for the
>>>>>> relevant mix of bus and rail fares before deciding how much to charge?
>>>>>
>>>>> There isn't a rail cap. There's a bus cap and an all-modes cap.
>>>>> Currently (for a few more days!), the all-modes cap in
>>>>> Z1-2 is £7.70 and the bus cap (all zones) is £4.95.
>>>>
>>>> Previous discussion suggests there is a de facto rail cap of
>>>> two-thirds of the full cap for Oyster cards linked with Railcards
>>>> (£5.13 in your example).
>>>
>>> Here's an example of how I think it should work:
>>>
>>> Journey Std fare Cumulative Actual fare charged after cap and discount
>>>
>>> Bus £1.65 £1.65 £1.65
>>> Train Z2-1 £2.60 £4.25 £1.73
>>> Bus (<60 min) £0.00 £4.25 £0.00
>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £6.75 £1.67
>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £9.25 £0.95
>>> Train Z1-2 £2.60 £11.85 £0.00
>>>
>>> So, the total fares paid would be £6, or a discount of 22% in this case.
>>
>> What would happen if you went above the cap? Supposing you ran up £26
>> of tube fares, all subject to one third off [£17.33]. Would you then
>> pay the same capped amount (£7.70) as someone with no Railcard?
>
>No, as I illustrated, fares are zero once you hit the undiscounted cap. So
>any further use in those zones that day would be free.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <otvevhhime9g482074fks8s0u5hpncgj63@4ax.com>, at 15:10:04 on
> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>> Previous discussion suggests there is a de facto rail cap of
>>>> two-thirds of the full cap for Oyster cards linked with Railcards
>>>> (£5.13 in your example).
>>>
>>> Here's an example of how I think it should work:
>>>
>>> Journey Std fare Cumulative Actual
>>> fare charged after cap and discount
>>>
>>> Bus £1.65 £1.65 £1.65
>>> Train Z2-1 £2.60 £4.25 £1.73
>>> Bus (<60 min) £0.00 £4.25 £0.00
>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £6.75 £1.67
>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £9.25 £0.95
>>> Train Z1-2 £2.60 £11.85 £0.00
>>>
>>> So, the total fares paid would be £6, or a discount of 22% in this case.
>>
>> What would happen if you went above the cap? Supposing you ran up £26
>> of tube fares, all subject to one third off [£17.33]. Would you then
>> pay the same capped amount (£7.70) as someone with no Railcard?
>>>
>>>> I didn't know about the bus cap. I assume this is for buses only.
>>>
>>> It applies if you only use buses in the period in question. Note that
>>> bus fares aren't zoned, so this cap applies to all
>>> London buses.
>>
>> Is the bus cap forfeited if you travel on the tube at any time during
>> the day? Suppose you travel on lots of buses and one tube, would you
>> pay £4.95 + £2.50 = £7.45 or £7.70 (price cap)?
>
> In general terms, if you exceed the price cap - by embarking on many, or
> expensive, sectors during the day - then it doesn't really matter how
> many or how expensive they are, or even what they add up to.
>
>> Would it be the Z1-2 price cap or all the zones where the buses went?
>
> If you caught a one-off bus from Z2 to Z3, then the cap appropriate for
> Z1-3 would apply.

Not so. Bus journeys aren't zoned.

> In such circumstances it could potentially be cheaper
> to use another payment method for that bus trip to avoid jumping up a
> rung.

The opposite is true.

>
> Z1-2 Anytime & Off-Peak Adult £7.70
> Anytime + Railcard £7.70 <<-- the same!
> Offpeak + Railcard £5.10 <<-- a third off

But only if all journeys are discounted rail. The discount falls if some
journeys are bus trips.

>
> Z1-3 Anytime & Off-Peak Adult £9.00
> Anytime + Railcard £9.00
> Offpeak + Railcard £5.95

How do you get that? Even if every journey is a discounted rail trip, the
cap can't be less than £6.

>
> So if the your day included some Peak travel, you've be winning if you
> could buy a bus ticket for £1.29 or less. (Other pairs of zones, lots of
> more lookups required).

How come?

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 15:43:45 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 14:11:59 +0000, Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:50:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:13:02 +0000, Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:49:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:37:18 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:22:04 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:57:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>>>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>>>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>>>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>>>>>>> journey).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
>>>>>>>>>> even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As is any journey once the cap is reached. The question is whether
>>>>>>>>> the bus operator gets any part of the fare or are they paid a contract
>>>>>>>>> rate to run the service irrespective of the number of passengers? I
>>>>>>>>> thought there might be an incentive payment, but I genuinely don't
>>>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think London bus operators are just paid a fee to run the service.
>>>>>>>> The fare revenues certainly don't affect their fees
>>>>>>>> (remember that, for one reason or another, most passengers aren't
>>>>>>>> paying bus fares). The numbers of passengers are
>>>>>>>> counted, but I'm not sure if it affects the fees they receive. They
>>>>>>>> are probably rewarded/penalised based on quality
>>>>>>>> factors, like cancelled buses, poor maintenance, punctuality,
>>>>>>>> passenger complaint rates, cleanliness, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is probably right. Like SQUIRE on ScotRail.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>>>>>> simple: all rail fares have the discount applied before being added to the
>>>>>>>>>> running total. If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all
>>>>>>>>>> modes are free (in the same zones, of course).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This would mean using a reduced cap. Surely this would then create
>>>>>>>>> confusion if a bus journey were to be interspersed?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They contribute to the cap.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But which cap? If I reach the rail cap then get on a bus, does the
>>>>>>> ticket machine on the bus then calculate the composite cap for the
>>>>>>> relevant mix of bus and rail fares before deciding how much to charge?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There isn't a rail cap. There's a bus cap and an all-modes cap.
>>>>>> Currently (for a few more days!), the all-modes cap in
>>>>>> Z1-2 is £7.70 and the bus cap (all zones) is £4.95.
>>>>>
>>>>> Previous discussion suggests there is a de facto rail cap of
>>>>> two-thirds of the full cap for Oyster cards linked with Railcards
>>>>> (£5.13 in your example).
>>>>
>>>> Here's an example of how I think it should work:
>>>>
>>>> Journey Std fare Cumulative Actual fare charged after cap and discount
>>>>
>>>> Bus £1.65 £1.65 £1.65
>>>> Train Z2-1 £2.60 £4.25 £1.73
>>>> Bus (<60 min) £0.00 £4.25 £0.00
>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £6.75 £1.67
>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £9.25 £0.95
>>>> Train Z1-2 £2.60 £11.85 £0.00
>>>>
>>>> So, the total fares paid would be £6, or a discount of 22% in this case.
>>>
>>> What would happen if you went above the cap? Supposing you ran up £26
>>> of tube fares, all subject to one third off [£17.33]. Would you then
>>> pay the same capped amount (£7.70) as someone with no Railcard?
>>
>> No, as I illustrated, fares are zero once you hit the undiscounted cap. So
>> any further use in those zones that day would be free.
>
> So in my example it would be £7.70 with or without the Senior
> Railcard? I am starting to understand this.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:27:11 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>Relatively speaking the south-of-the-river extension has been a flop,
>probably because it has a comparatively small catchment area, and is not
>much of an improvement on the bus services.

Useful for park and ride though if you're coming off the northbound M1.
I'm surprised its not much used as it seems to go past a lot of housing.

On 23/02/2023 09:04, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 22/02/2023 22:29, Recliner wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>
>>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>>
>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass…
>>
>> Or Welsh, but I'm assuming the OP didn't make a day trip from Scotland.
>>
>>>
>>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>>> rail services.
>>>
>>
>> But if you have a senior railcard it means you are entitled to a senior
>> bus pass so travel on London buses should be free.
>>
>
> No, not necessarily. The age for a senior rail card is 60, but for an
> English bus pass is 66. And non-English bus pass holders don't get free
> travel on London buses.
>

I was forgetting, I think I got mine when I was 60.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 23/02/2023 09:44, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 22/02/2023 22:29, Recliner wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>
>>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>>
>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass…
>>
>> Or Welsh, but I'm assuming the OP didn't make a day trip from Scotland.
>
> He didn't say it was a day trip, just 'a trip'.
>
>

So he did.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 09:53:36 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 02:21:53 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 01:26:51 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 22:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>>>>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>>>>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>>>>>>> rail services.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Having just gone through three or four different TfL pages, they all
>>>>>> say this or a variation thereof :-
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Customers with an Annual Gold Card , 16-25, Senior, HM Forces,
>>>>>> Disabled Persons or 26-30 Digital Railcard can also get a discount set
>>>>>> on an Oyster card, to get a 1/3 off:
>>>>>> ?Off-peak pay as you go fares
>>>>>> ?Daily caps for travel made during off peak hours"
>>>>>> [https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/761219/response/1819311/attach/5/2650196521Book%203%20Discounts%20and%20Photocards%201%20March%202021%20final.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1}
>>>>>> [https://tinyurl.com/5brs2e45] -
>>>>>> [Your staff guide to fares and ticketing]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TfL buses don't get mentioned as an exception.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've already posted the link that says, "Your National Railcard gives you
>>>>> discounts on the Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National
>>>>> Rail services".
>>>>>
>>>>> ????
>>>>>
>>>>> So, not taxis, buses, trams, cable cars or boats.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/national-railcard-discount
>>>>>
>>>> It doesn't say any of those are excluded other than implicitly where
>>>> they do not come within "off-peak pay as you go travel". Perhaps
>>>> somebody who has one with a relevant day's travel can check their
>>>> Oyster history to see where the 30% gets shaved off?
>>>>
>>> That's probably predictable. More interesting might be how the caps work in
>>> such cases.
>>
>> Indeed. I assume there is no mechanism to adjust the cap according to
>> the mix of journeys. You could argue if your final journey of the day
>> is by bus, you are getting it free though I very much doubt that the
>> allocation works in that way.
>>
>
>The algorithm I'd expect, but have no evidence, is that the same caps would
>still apply. So, rail journeys would get their promised discounts, and
>other journeys would not, but the cap wouldn't be reduced just because some
>journeys had a discount. Alternatively, the cap might be based on the
>undiscounted fares, with the actual rail portion of the day's spend
>subsequently being discounted. In effect, this would lower the cap by up to
>a third (but not at all, if all the journeys were by bus or tram).
>
Having dug up an old Oyster statement from 2013 (IIRC there was a
Railcard attached), the charging stopped part way through a journey
(i.e. 1-20 charged instead of 2-30) with subsequent travel shown at
nil cost. The journeys were shown at their full rate.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 09:48:46 +0000, MB wrote:

> People are also often confused by thinking of trams as part of the bus
> system but like trains, bus passes do not include them out of area.

There's always an exception... Sheffield Supertram accepts English bus
passes (from anywhere in England) for free travel.

Mike

On 23/02/2023 10:42, Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 09:44:22 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 22/02/2023 22:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>>>
>>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass…
>>>
>>> Or Welsh, but I'm assuming the OP didn't make a day trip from Scotland.
>>
>> He didn't say it was a day trip, just 'a trip'.
>>
> As OP, I can confirm the trip lasted seven days in total. I hold a
> Scottish 'National Entitlement Card' (as it is known) but this cannot
> be used in England.

Just as the English one is not valid in Scotland. Something I kept
having to remind myself about when hopping on and off buses in Edinburgh.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 23/02/2023 13:05, MB wrote:
> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as
>> buses,
>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>
> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
> and T&C.  :-)
>
> My brother is a frequent visitor to Blackpool and I know some years he
> mentioned that he had been surprised that his Bury bus pass did get him
> free travel.
>
>
On the trams?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:14:00 +0000, Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>>On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>
>>When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>and T&C. :-)
>>
>>My brother is a frequent visitor to Blackpool and I know some years he
>>mentioned that he had been surprised that his Bury bus pass did get him
>>free travel.
>>
>
>My London Freedom Pass doesn't.
>
Currently -
"Holders of concessionary passes issued outside of Blackpool or Wyre
can travel for FREE on our buses between 09:30 and 23:00 Monday to
Friday and all day on Saturday, Sunday and bank holidays."
[....]
"Concessionary passes issued outside of Blackpool or Wyre are not
eligible for free travel on our trams as decided by Lancashire County
Council."
[https://www.blackpooltransport.com/concessions]

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>>On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>
>>When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>and T&C. :-)
>>
>If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>
The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
to the south.

On 23/02/2023 17:45, Mike Humphrey wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 09:48:46 +0000, MB wrote:
>
>> People are also often confused by thinking of trams as part of the bus
>> system but like trains, bus passes do not include them out of area.
>
> There's always an exception... Sheffield Supertram accepts English bus
> passes (from anywhere in England) for free travel.
>

That I didn't know, mind you I haven't been to Sheffield for over a decade.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 16:13:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 15:43:45 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 14:11:59 +0000, Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:50:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:13:02 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:49:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:37:18 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:22:04 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:57:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>>>>>>>> journey).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
>>>>>>>>>>> even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As is any journey once the cap is reached. The question is whether
>>>>>>>>>> the bus operator gets any part of the fare or are they paid a contract
>>>>>>>>>> rate to run the service irrespective of the number of passengers? I
>>>>>>>>>> thought there might be an incentive payment, but I genuinely don't
>>>>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think London bus operators are just paid a fee to run the service.
>>>>>>>>> The fare revenues certainly don't affect their fees
>>>>>>>>> (remember that, for one reason or another, most passengers aren't
>>>>>>>>> paying bus fares). The numbers of passengers are
>>>>>>>>> counted, but I'm not sure if it affects the fees they receive. They
>>>>>>>>> are probably rewarded/penalised based on quality
>>>>>>>>> factors, like cancelled buses, poor maintenance, punctuality,
>>>>>>>>> passenger complaint rates, cleanliness, etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is probably right. Like SQUIRE on ScotRail.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>>>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>>>>>>> simple: all rail fares have the discount applied before being added to the
>>>>>>>>>>> running total. If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all
>>>>>>>>>>> modes are free (in the same zones, of course).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This would mean using a reduced cap. Surely this would then create
>>>>>>>>>> confusion if a bus journey were to be interspersed?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They contribute to the cap.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But which cap? If I reach the rail cap then get on a bus, does the
>>>>>>>> ticket machine on the bus then calculate the composite cap for the
>>>>>>>> relevant mix of bus and rail fares before deciding how much to charge?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There isn't a rail cap. There's a bus cap and an all-modes cap.
>>>>>>> Currently (for a few more days!), the all-modes cap in
>>>>>>> Z1-2 is £7.70 and the bus cap (all zones) is £4.95.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Previous discussion suggests there is a de facto rail cap of
>>>>>> two-thirds of the full cap for Oyster cards linked with Railcards
>>>>>> (£5.13 in your example).
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's an example of how I think it should work:
>>>>>
>>>>> Journey Std fare Cumulative Actual fare charged after cap and discount
>>>>>
>>>>> Bus £1.65 £1.65 £1.65
>>>>> Train Z2-1 £2.60 £4.25 £1.73
>>>>> Bus (<60 min) £0.00 £4.25 £0.00
>>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £6.75 £1.67
>>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £9.25 £0.95
>>>>> Train Z1-2 £2.60 £11.85 £0.00
>>>>>
>>>>> So, the total fares paid would be £6, or a discount of 22% in this case.
>>>>
>>>> What would happen if you went above the cap? Supposing you ran up £26
>>>> of tube fares, all subject to one third off [£17.33]. Would you then
>>>> pay the same capped amount (£7.70) as someone with no Railcard?
>>>
>>> No, as I illustrated, fares are zero once you hit the undiscounted cap. So
>>> any further use in those zones that day would be free.
>>
>> So in my example it would be £7.70 with or without the Senior
>> Railcard? I am starting to understand this.
>
>No, as I showed, the railcard reduces the cap, to £6 in this case. I think
>it will be between £5.13 and £7.70, depending on the rail/bus mix before
>you hit the cap.
>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't know about the bus cap. I assume this is for buses only.
>>>>>
>>>>> It applies if you only use buses in the period in question. Note that
>>>>> bus fares aren't zoned, so this cap applies to all
>>>>> London buses.
>>>>
>>>> Is the bus cap forfeited if you travel on the tube at any time during
>>>> the day? Suppose you travel on lots of buses and one tube, would you
>>>> pay £4.95 + £2.50 = £7.45 or £7.70 (price cap)?
>>>
>>> It's supposed to pick the cheaper one automatically.
>>>>
>>>> Would it be the Z1-2 price cap or all the zones where the buses went?
>>>
>>> Bus routes aren't zoned.
>>>
>> But they could form a part of an all-modes cap.
>
>Yes, of course.
>
>>
>> If you make a long bus journey into Zone 2 then use the tube, would
>> you benefit from the Z1-2 price cap even though your journey started
>> in Zone 6? In effect, is the bus treated as a part of the Zone that
>> is most beneficial to the capping?
>
>Buses are zoneless. The zone caps are determined by the rail stations you
>accessed. So use of buses never increases the number of zones you're
>charged for. So, you could commute from Z4 to Z2 by bus, then use any mix
>of transport modes all day in Z1-2, then catch the bus home from Z2, and
>will be charged a Z1-2 cap.
>
>>
>> I realise these are edge cases, but I am trying to understand the
>> system? It was quite different when I live in London.
>
>Oyster capping changed everything.
>
>> Then it was
>> based all the Zones you travelled through and (I believe) the cost was
>> the same whether you used a bus or the tube.
>
>That must have been a long time ago, before Oyster.
>
or using a paper Travelcard?

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
<charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>
>>>When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>and T&C. :-)
>>>
>>If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)

Should read Schengen of course.
>>
>The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>to the south.

Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
apply - arguably :-)

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 16:13:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 15:43:45 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 14:11:59 +0000, Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:50:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:13:02 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:49:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:37:18 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:22:04 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:57:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>>>>>>>> journey).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
>>>>>>>>>>> even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As is any journey once the cap is reached. The question is whether
>>>>>>>>>> the bus operator gets any part of the fare or are they paid a contract
>>>>>>>>>> rate to run the service irrespective of the number of passengers? I
>>>>>>>>>> thought there might be an incentive payment, but I genuinely don't
>>>>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think London bus operators are just paid a fee to run the service.
>>>>>>>>> The fare revenues certainly don't affect their fees
>>>>>>>>> (remember that, for one reason or another, most passengers aren't
>>>>>>>>> paying bus fares). The numbers of passengers are
>>>>>>>>> counted, but I'm not sure if it affects the fees they receive. They
>>>>>>>>> are probably rewarded/penalised based on quality
>>>>>>>>> factors, like cancelled buses, poor maintenance, punctuality,
>>>>>>>>> passenger complaint rates, cleanliness, etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is probably right. Like SQUIRE on ScotRail.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>>>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>>>>>>> simple: all rail fares have the discount applied before being added to the
>>>>>>>>>>> running total. If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all
>>>>>>>>>>> modes are free (in the same zones, of course).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This would mean using a reduced cap. Surely this would then create
>>>>>>>>>> confusion if a bus journey were to be interspersed?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They contribute to the cap.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But which cap? If I reach the rail cap then get on a bus, does the
>>>>>>>> ticket machine on the bus then calculate the composite cap for the
>>>>>>>> relevant mix of bus and rail fares before deciding how much to charge?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There isn't a rail cap. There's a bus cap and an all-modes cap.
>>>>>>> Currently (for a few more days!), the all-modes cap in
>>>>>>> Z1-2 is £7.70 and the bus cap (all zones) is £4.95.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Previous discussion suggests there is a de facto rail cap of
>>>>>> two-thirds of the full cap for Oyster cards linked with Railcards
>>>>>> (£5.13 in your example).
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's an example of how I think it should work:
>>>>>
>>>>> Journey Std fare Cumulative Actual fare charged after cap and discount
>>>>>
>>>>> Bus £1.65 £1.65 £1.65
>>>>> Train Z2-1 £2.60 £4.25 £1.73
>>>>> Bus (<60 min) £0.00 £4.25 £0.00
>>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £6.75 £1.67
>>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £9.25 £0.95
>>>>> Train Z1-2 £2.60 £11.85 £0.00
>>>>>
>>>>> So, the total fares paid would be £6, or a discount of 22% in this case.
>>>>
>>>> What would happen if you went above the cap? Supposing you ran up £26
>>>> of tube fares, all subject to one third off [£17.33]. Would you then
>>>> pay the same capped amount (£7.70) as someone with no Railcard?
>>>
>>> No, as I illustrated, fares are zero once you hit the undiscounted cap. So
>>> any further use in those zones that day would be free.
>>
>> So in my example it would be £7.70 with or without the Senior
>> Railcard? I am starting to understand this.
>
>No, as I showed, the railcard reduces the cap, to £6 in this case. I think
>it will be between £5.13 and £7.70, depending on the rail/bus mix before
>you hit the cap.

In message <tt83h7$1tm1b$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:16:39 on Thu, 23 Feb
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:27:11 +0000
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>>Relatively speaking the south-of-the-river extension has been a flop,
>>probably because it has a comparatively small catchment area, and is not
>>much of an improvement on the bus services.
>
>Useful for park and ride though if you're coming off the northbound M1.

I wonder what parking you are thinking of.

>I'm surprised its not much used as it seems to go past a lot of housing.

There's the Clifton estate, but do the people there [not that many
anyway] want to go to the railway station (it's a bit too far east of
the centre).

It then goes through a 'green belt' (used to be the Great Central
railway line, then linear country park) past the extremities of Compton
Acres. Most people there would drive, because while the bus service is
frequent, they never seemed that full. By the time you are ten minutes
walk east, why would anyone head west to the tramway just to be taken
north to the river, then back east again?
--
Roland Perry

In message <2nnevhpvn21642069bmvpef37r5adtu8nj@4ax.com>, at 12:43:35 on
Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:21:09 +0000, Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>
>>On 23/02/2023 11:44, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>> All Tube trips are included.
>>
>>The first part certainly implies that some or all Tube trips are
>>included, but how does that reconcile with "Railcard discounts do
>>not apply to ... most London Underground ... tickets"? Genuine
>>question; I'm not trying to pick holes in anyone's argument.
>
>The key word is *tickets*. Oyster card users don't have tickets.

Oh, I see, the relevant word being "fares".

>Cc card users also don't get the discount, as there isn't yet a way of
>registering a rail card to a cc card.
>
>>It might mean that rail tickets with a Maltese cross attract a
>>discount despite being valid on the Tube, but "London Underground
>>tickets" valid only on the Tube[1] do not, but other comments imply
>>that it is much more liberal.
>
>Registered Oyster users get the rail card discount, others don't.

However, only off-peak; so not Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and
from 1600 to 1900.

Which is slightly more generous than a cardholder might have expected in
the morning, but will come as a disappointment for those traveling in
the evening peak.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tt7jia$1s0hq$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:10 on Thu, 23 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tt7grb$1rnju$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:47 on Thu, 23 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>> card.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>
>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>
>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>
>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>
>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>
>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>
>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on
>>
>> is here a missing "only a few" here...
>
>No

Turns out what's missing is "off peak"

>>>>> Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line

....

>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>> simple: all rail fares
>>
>> Including all tube fares (see left hand/right hand, above)?
>
>Yes

Only off-peak.
--
Roland Perry

In message <4hmevhlutof14o9unb73q8j2o2m7ik3qob@4ax.com>, at 12:27:46 on
Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:28:31 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <nsgevhp2m7u6d74lesnc4b7c8ubaftuacs@4ax.com>, at 10:47:49 on
>>Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>
>>>>>I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>card.
>>>>
>>>>No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>
>>>>>If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>overcharged
>>>>
>>>>In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>
>>>>>and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>
>>>>There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>
>>>>>Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>
>>>>Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>
>>>>>Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>card is used?
>>>>
>>>>From the TfL website:
>>>>
>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>
>>>>But from the card's T&C:
>>>>
>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>
>>>>Left hand/right hand?
>>>>
>>>>>I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>(thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>
>>>>As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>
>>>>If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>we think.
>>>
>>>No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>journey). My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>journeys are effectively freebies.
>>
>>I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>
>Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?

The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't necessarily the same
as the National Rail fare between A and B (via perhaps D). So the fare
you are discounting by a third won't be the same. But at least it'd be
clear which of the two to discount.

However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking to one mode
all the way, the undiscounted fare is difficult to know especially when
the system can't tell where you made the modal change (in the
circumstances there are no barriers to go through where you change
modes).

--
Roland Perry

In message <tt82hg$1ti7h$5@dont-email.me>, at 15:59:44 on Thu, 23 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <otvevhhime9g482074fks8s0u5hpncgj63@4ax.com>, at 15:10:04 on
>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>> Previous discussion suggests there is a de facto rail cap of
>>>>> two-thirds of the full cap for Oyster cards linked with Railcards
>>>>> (£5.13 in your example).
>>>>
>>>> Here's an example of how I think it should work:
>>>>
>>>> Journey Std fare Cumulative Actual
>>>> fare charged after cap and discount
>>>>
>>>> Bus £1.65 £1.65 £1.65
>>>> Train Z2-1 £2.60 £4.25 £1.73
>>>> Bus (<60 min) £0.00 £4.25 £0.00
>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £6.75 £1.67
>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £9.25 £0.95
>>>> Train Z1-2 £2.60 £11.85 £0.00
>>>>
>>>> So, the total fares paid would be £6, or a discount of 22% in this case.
>>>
>>> What would happen if you went above the cap? Supposing you ran up £26
>>> of tube fares, all subject to one third off [£17.33]. Would you then
>>> pay the same capped amount (£7.70) as someone with no Railcard?
>>>>
>>>>> I didn't know about the bus cap. I assume this is for buses only.
>>>>
>>>> It applies if you only use buses in the period in question. Note that
>>>> bus fares aren't zoned, so this cap applies to all
>>>> London buses.
>>>
>>> Is the bus cap forfeited if you travel on the tube at any time during
>>> the day? Suppose you travel on lots of buses and one tube, would you
>>> pay £4.95 + £2.50 = £7.45 or £7.70 (price cap)?
>>
>> In general terms, if you exceed the price cap - by embarking on many, or
>> expensive, sectors during the day - then it doesn't really matter how
>> many or how expensive they are, or even what they add up to.
>>
>>> Would it be the Z1-2 price cap or all the zones where the buses went?
>>
>> If you caught a one-off bus from Z2 to Z3, then the cap appropriate for
>> Z1-3 would apply.
>
>Not so. Bus journeys aren't zoned.

I suppose that makes some sense, because they can't tell where you got
off the bus.

>> Z1-3 Anytime & Off-Peak Adult £9.00
>> Anytime + Railcard £9.00
>> Offpeak + Railcard £5.95
>
>How do you get that?

Off the TfL site's fare-finder.

--
Roland Perry