On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 18:46:25 +0000, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
><charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>
>>>>When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>and T&C. :-)
>>>>
>>>If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>
>Should read Schengen of course.
>>>
>>The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>to the south.
>
>Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>apply - arguably :-)
>
As would TIR Convention rules unless the RotUK withdraws.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 18:53:38 +0000, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 16:13:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 15:43:45 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 14:11:59 +0000, Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:50:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:13:02 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:49:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:37:18 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:22:04 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:57:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> journey).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
>>>>>>>>>>>> even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As is any journey once the cap is reached. The question is whether
>>>>>>>>>>> the bus operator gets any part of the fare or are they paid a contract
>>>>>>>>>>> rate to run the service irrespective of the number of passengers? I
>>>>>>>>>>> thought there might be an incentive payment, but I genuinely don't
>>>>>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think London bus operators are just paid a fee to run the service.
>>>>>>>>>> The fare revenues certainly don't affect their fees
>>>>>>>>>> (remember that, for one reason or another, most passengers aren't
>>>>>>>>>> paying bus fares). The numbers of passengers are
>>>>>>>>>> counted, but I'm not sure if it affects the fees they receive. They
>>>>>>>>>> are probably rewarded/penalised based on quality
>>>>>>>>>> factors, like cancelled buses, poor maintenance, punctuality,
>>>>>>>>>> passenger complaint rates, cleanliness, etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is probably right. Like SQUIRE on ScotRail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>>>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>>>>>>>> simple: all rail fares have the discount applied before being added to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> running total. If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all
>>>>>>>>>>>> modes are free (in the same zones, of course).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This would mean using a reduced cap. Surely this would then create
>>>>>>>>>>> confusion if a bus journey were to be interspersed?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They contribute to the cap.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But which cap? If I reach the rail cap then get on a bus, does the
>>>>>>>>> ticket machine on the bus then calculate the composite cap for the
>>>>>>>>> relevant mix of bus and rail fares before deciding how much to charge?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There isn't a rail cap. There's a bus cap and an all-modes cap.
>>>>>>>> Currently (for a few more days!), the all-modes cap in
>>>>>>>> Z1-2 is £7.70 and the bus cap (all zones) is £4.95.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Previous discussion suggests there is a de facto rail cap of
>>>>>>> two-thirds of the full cap for Oyster cards linked with Railcards
>>>>>>> (£5.13 in your example).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's an example of how I think it should work:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Journey Std fare Cumulative Actual fare charged after cap and discount
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bus £1.65 £1.65 £1.65
>>>>>> Train Z2-1 £2.60 £4.25 £1.73
>>>>>> Bus (<60 min) £0.00 £4.25 £0.00
>>>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £6.75 £1.67
>>>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £9.25 £0.95
>>>>>> Train Z1-2 £2.60 £11.85 £0.00
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, the total fares paid would be £6, or a discount of 22% in this case.
>>>>>
>>>>> What would happen if you went above the cap? Supposing you ran up £26
>>>>> of tube fares, all subject to one third off [£17.33]. Would you then
>>>>> pay the same capped amount (£7.70) as someone with no Railcard?
>>>>
>>>> No, as I illustrated, fares are zero once you hit the undiscounted cap. So
>>>> any further use in those zones that day would be free.
>>>
>>> So in my example it would be £7.70 with or without the Senior
>>> Railcard? I am starting to understand this.
>>
>>No, as I showed, the railcard reduces the cap, to £6 in this case. I think
>>it will be between £5.13 and £7.70, depending on the rail/bus mix before
>>you hit the cap.
>
>So they stop counting when the full fare reaches the cap, then apply
>the discount next? Am I getting there.>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I didn't know about the bus cap. I assume this is for buses only.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It applies if you only use buses in the period in question. Note that
>>>>>> bus fares aren't zoned, so this cap applies to all
>>>>>> London buses.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is the bus cap forfeited if you travel on the tube at any time during
>>>>> the day? Suppose you travel on lots of buses and one tube, would you
>>>>> pay £4.95 + £2.50 = £7.45 or £7.70 (price cap)?
>>>>
>>>> It's supposed to pick the cheaper one automatically.
>>>>>
>>>>> Would it be the Z1-2 price cap or all the zones where the buses went?
>>>>
>>>> Bus routes aren't zoned.
>>>>
>>> But they could form a part of an all-modes cap.
>>
>>Yes, of course.
>>
>>>
>>> If you make a long bus journey into Zone 2 then use the tube, would
>>> you benefit from the Z1-2 price cap even though your journey started
>>> in Zone 6? In effect, is the bus treated as a part of the Zone that
>>> is most beneficial to the capping?
>>
>>Buses are zoneless. The zone caps are determined by the rail stations you
>>accessed. So use of buses never increases the number of zones you're
>>charged for. So, you could commute from Z4 to Z2 by bus, then use any mix
>>of transport modes all day in Z1-2, then catch the bus home from Z2, and
>>will be charged a Z1-2 cap.
>
>With no need for the bus even to enter Zone 2?
>
There is no "Zone 2" for a bus. The entire Oyster service area is a
single zone for buses. One single cap (for each relevant period)
applies for trams and buses.
Once you use a train then you move on to the higher "all services"
daily and/or weekly caps.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 20:00:56 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <tt82hg$1ti7h$5@dont-email.me>, at 15:59:44 on Thu, 23 Feb
>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <otvevhhime9g482074fks8s0u5hpncgj63@4ax.com>, at 15:10:04 on
>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> Previous discussion suggests there is a de facto rail cap of
>>>>>> two-thirds of the full cap for Oyster cards linked with Railcards
>>>>>> (£5.13 in your example).
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's an example of how I think it should work:
>>>>>
>>>>> Journey Std fare Cumulative Actual
>>>>> fare charged after cap and discount
>>>>>
>>>>> Bus £1.65 £1.65 £1.65
>>>>> Train Z2-1 £2.60 £4.25 £1.73
>>>>> Bus (<60 min) £0.00 £4.25 £0.00
>>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £6.75 £1.67
>>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £9.25 £0.95
>>>>> Train Z1-2 £2.60 £11.85 £0.00
>>>>>
>>>>> So, the total fares paid would be £6, or a discount of 22% in this case.
>>>>
>>>> What would happen if you went above the cap? Supposing you ran up £26
>>>> of tube fares, all subject to one third off [£17.33]. Would you then
>>>> pay the same capped amount (£7.70) as someone with no Railcard?
>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't know about the bus cap. I assume this is for buses only.
>>>>>
>>>>> It applies if you only use buses in the period in question. Note that
>>>>> bus fares aren't zoned, so this cap applies to all
>>>>> London buses.
>>>>
>>>> Is the bus cap forfeited if you travel on the tube at any time during
>>>> the day? Suppose you travel on lots of buses and one tube, would you
>>>> pay £4.95 + £2.50 = £7.45 or £7.70 (price cap)?
>>>
>>> In general terms, if you exceed the price cap - by embarking on many, or
>>> expensive, sectors during the day - then it doesn't really matter how
>>> many or how expensive they are, or even what they add up to.
>>>
>>>> Would it be the Z1-2 price cap or all the zones where the buses went?
>>>
>>> If you caught a one-off bus from Z2 to Z3, then the cap appropriate for
>>> Z1-3 would apply.
>>
>>Not so. Bus journeys aren't zoned.
>
>I suppose that makes some sense, because they can't tell where you got
>off the bus.
>
They could have done if they had copied other areas where variable
fares applied and tickets were still used. Having one fare got rid of
the need for those tickets as well as the cash handling.

>>> Z1-3 Anytime & Off-Peak Adult £9.00
>>> Anytime + Railcard £9.00
>>> Offpeak + Railcard £5.95
>>
>>How do you get that?
>
>Off the TfL site's fare-finder.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 20:07:46 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <4hmevhlutof14o9unb73q8j2o2m7ik3qob@4ax.com>, at 12:27:46 on
>Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:28:31 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <nsgevhp2m7u6d74lesnc4b7c8ubaftuacs@4ax.com>, at 10:47:49 on
>>>Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>card.
>>>>>
>>>>>No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>
>>>>>>If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>overcharged
>>>>>
>>>>>In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>
>>>>>>and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>
>>>>>There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>
>>>>>>Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>
>>>>>Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>
>>>>>>Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>card is used?
>>>>>
>>>>>From the TfL website:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>
>>>>>But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>
>>>>>Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>
>>>>>>I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>>(thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>>offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>
>>>>>As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>>the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>>at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>>don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>>we think.
>>>>
>>>>No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>journey). My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>
>>>I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>
>>Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>
>The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't necessarily the same
>as the National Rail fare between A and B (via perhaps D). So the fare
>you are discounting by a third won't be the same. But at least it'd be
>clear which of the two to discount.
>
Where multiple routes are available there are nearly always pink
Oyster readers at an interchange point which have to be touched
otherwise the journey usually but not always** defaults to the higher
fare. Journeys from A to B via the same sequence of zones do not
generally take account of whose trains are used otherwise e.g. you
would have to determine whose trains were used to get from Harrow to
Clapham Junction.

** Journeys via the West London Line can default to the lower fare
depending on the origin and destination.

>However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking to one mode
>all the way, the undiscounted fare is difficult to know especially when
>the system can't tell where you made the modal change (in the
>circumstances there are no barriers to go through where you change
>modes).

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 09:53:36 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 02:21:53 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 01:26:51 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 22:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>>>>>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>>>>>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>>>>>>>> rail services.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Having just gone through three or four different TfL pages, they all
>>>>>>> say this or a variation thereof :-
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Customers with an Annual Gold Card , 16-25, Senior, HM Forces,
>>>>>>> Disabled Persons or 26-30 Digital Railcard can also get a discount set
>>>>>>> on an Oyster card, to get a 1/3 off:
>>>>>>> ?Off-peak pay as you go fares
>>>>>>> ?Daily caps for travel made during off peak hours"
>>>>>>> [https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/761219/response/1819311/attach/5/2650196521Book%203%20Discounts%20and%20Photocards%201%20March%202021%20final.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1}
>>>>>>> [https://tinyurl.com/5brs2e45] -
>>>>>>> [Your staff guide to fares and ticketing]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TfL buses don't get mentioned as an exception.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've already posted the link that says, "Your National Railcard gives you
>>>>>> discounts on the Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National
>>>>>> Rail services".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ????
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, not taxis, buses, trams, cable cars or boats.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/national-railcard-discount
>>>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't say any of those are excluded other than implicitly where
>>>>> they do not come within "off-peak pay as you go travel". Perhaps
>>>>> somebody who has one with a relevant day's travel can check their
>>>>> Oyster history to see where the 30% gets shaved off?
>>>>>
>>>> That's probably predictable. More interesting might be how the caps work in
>>>> such cases.
>>>
>>> Indeed. I assume there is no mechanism to adjust the cap according to
>>> the mix of journeys. You could argue if your final journey of the day
>>> is by bus, you are getting it free though I very much doubt that the
>>> allocation works in that way.
>>>
>>
>> The algorithm I'd expect, but have no evidence, is that the same caps would
>> still apply. So, rail journeys would get their promised discounts, and
>> other journeys would not, but the cap wouldn't be reduced just because some
>> journeys had a discount. Alternatively, the cap might be based on the
>> undiscounted fares, with the actual rail portion of the day's spend
>> subsequently being discounted. In effect, this would lower the cap by up to
>> a third (but not at all, if all the journeys were by bus or tram).
>>
> Having dug up an old Oyster statement from 2013 (IIRC there was a
> Railcard attached), the charging stopped part way through a journey
> (i.e. 1-20 charged instead of 2-30) with subsequent travel shown at
> nil cost. The journeys were shown at their full rate.
>

Can you work out whether the then full cap was applied, or whether the cap
was reduced because of the railcard?

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 23/02/2023 13:05, MB wrote:
>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as
>>> buses,
>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>
>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>> and T&C.  :-)
>>
>> My brother is a frequent visitor to Blackpool and I know some years he
>> mentioned that he had been surprised that his Bury bus pass did get him
>> free travel.
>>
>>
> On the trams?

I don't think so.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 23/02/2023 17:45, Mike Humphrey wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 09:48:46 +0000, MB wrote:
>>
>>> People are also often confused by thinking of trams as part of the bus
>>> system but like trains, bus passes do not include them out of area.
>>
>> There's always an exception... Sheffield Supertram accepts English bus
>> passes (from anywhere in England) for free travel.
>>
>
>
> That I didn't know, mind you I haven't been to Sheffield for over a decade.
>

I think it's because they're operated by Stagecoach. The policy might
change when the franchise ends.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>
>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>
>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>
> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>
>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>> to the south.
>
> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
> apply - arguably :-)
>

No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
islands.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 16:13:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 15:43:45 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 14:11:59 +0000, Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:50:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:13:02 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:49:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:37:18 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:22:04 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:57:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> journey).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
>>>>>>>>>>>> even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As is any journey once the cap is reached. The question is whether
>>>>>>>>>>> the bus operator gets any part of the fare or are they paid a contract
>>>>>>>>>>> rate to run the service irrespective of the number of passengers? I
>>>>>>>>>>> thought there might be an incentive payment, but I genuinely don't
>>>>>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think London bus operators are just paid a fee to run the service.
>>>>>>>>>> The fare revenues certainly don't affect their fees
>>>>>>>>>> (remember that, for one reason or another, most passengers aren't
>>>>>>>>>> paying bus fares). The numbers of passengers are
>>>>>>>>>> counted, but I'm not sure if it affects the fees they receive. They
>>>>>>>>>> are probably rewarded/penalised based on quality
>>>>>>>>>> factors, like cancelled buses, poor maintenance, punctuality,
>>>>>>>>>> passenger complaint rates, cleanliness, etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is probably right. Like SQUIRE on ScotRail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>>>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>>>>>>>> simple: all rail fares have the discount applied before being added to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> running total. If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all
>>>>>>>>>>>> modes are free (in the same zones, of course).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This would mean using a reduced cap. Surely this would then create
>>>>>>>>>>> confusion if a bus journey were to be interspersed?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They contribute to the cap.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But which cap? If I reach the rail cap then get on a bus, does the
>>>>>>>>> ticket machine on the bus then calculate the composite cap for the
>>>>>>>>> relevant mix of bus and rail fares before deciding how much to charge?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There isn't a rail cap. There's a bus cap and an all-modes cap.
>>>>>>>> Currently (for a few more days!), the all-modes cap in
>>>>>>>> Z1-2 is £7.70 and the bus cap (all zones) is £4.95.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Previous discussion suggests there is a de facto rail cap of
>>>>>>> two-thirds of the full cap for Oyster cards linked with Railcards
>>>>>>> (£5.13 in your example).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's an example of how I think it should work:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Journey Std fare Cumulative Actual fare charged after cap and discount
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bus £1.65 £1.65 £1.65
>>>>>> Train Z2-1 £2.60 £4.25 £1.73
>>>>>> Bus (<60 min) £0.00 £4.25 £0.00
>>>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £6.75 £1.67
>>>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £9.25 £0.95
>>>>>> Train Z1-2 £2.60 £11.85 £0.00
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, the total fares paid would be £6, or a discount of 22% in this case.
>>>>>
>>>>> What would happen if you went above the cap? Supposing you ran up £26
>>>>> of tube fares, all subject to one third off [£17.33]. Would you then
>>>>> pay the same capped amount (£7.70) as someone with no Railcard?
>>>>
>>>> No, as I illustrated, fares are zero once you hit the undiscounted cap. So
>>>> any further use in those zones that day would be free.
>>>
>>> So in my example it would be £7.70 with or without the Senior
>>> Railcard? I am starting to understand this.
>>
>> No, as I showed, the railcard reduces the cap, to £6 in this case. I think
>> it will be between £5.13 and £7.70, depending on the rail/bus mix before
>> you hit the cap.
>
> So they stop counting when the full fare reaches the cap, then apply
> the discount next? Am I getting there.>

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <2nnevhpvn21642069bmvpef37r5adtu8nj@4ax.com>, at 12:43:35 on
> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:21:09 +0000, Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 23/02/2023 11:44, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> All Tube trips are included.
>>>
>>> The first part certainly implies that some or all Tube trips are
>>> included, but how does that reconcile with "Railcard discounts do
>>> not apply to ... most London Underground ... tickets"? Genuine
>>> question; I'm not trying to pick holes in anyone's argument.
>>
>> The key word is *tickets*. Oyster card users don't have tickets.
>
> Oh, I see, the relevant word being "fares".
>
>> Cc card users also don't get the discount, as there isn't yet a way of
>> registering a rail card to a cc card.
>>
>>> It might mean that rail tickets with a Maltese cross attract a
>>> discount despite being valid on the Tube, but "London Underground
>>> tickets" valid only on the Tube[1] do not, but other comments imply
>>> that it is much more liberal.
>>
>> Registered Oyster users get the rail card discount, others don't.
>
> However, only off-peak; so not Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and
> from 1600 to 1900.
>
> Which is slightly more generous than a cardholder might have expected in
> the morning, but will come as a disappointment for those traveling in
> the evening peak.

Why would they be disappointed? The railcard discount applies after 09:30
M-F, and at any time on weekends and public holidays.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 20:39:22 +0000, Charles Ellson
<charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 18:53:38 +0000, Scott
><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 16:13:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 15:43:45 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 14:11:59 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:50:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:13:02 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:49:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:37:18 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:22:04 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:57:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> journey).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
>>>>>>>>>>>>> even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As is any journey once the cap is reached. The question is whether
>>>>>>>>>>>> the bus operator gets any part of the fare or are they paid a contract
>>>>>>>>>>>> rate to run the service irrespective of the number of passengers? I
>>>>>>>>>>>> thought there might be an incentive payment, but I genuinely don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think London bus operators are just paid a fee to run the service.
>>>>>>>>>>> The fare revenues certainly don't affect their fees
>>>>>>>>>>> (remember that, for one reason or another, most passengers aren't
>>>>>>>>>>> paying bus fares). The numbers of passengers are
>>>>>>>>>>> counted, but I'm not sure if it affects the fees they receive. They
>>>>>>>>>>> are probably rewarded/penalised based on quality
>>>>>>>>>>> factors, like cancelled buses, poor maintenance, punctuality,
>>>>>>>>>>> passenger complaint rates, cleanliness, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is probably right. Like SQUIRE on ScotRail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> simple: all rail fares have the discount applied before being added to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> running total. If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all
>>>>>>>>>>>>> modes are free (in the same zones, of course).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This would mean using a reduced cap. Surely this would then create
>>>>>>>>>>>> confusion if a bus journey were to be interspersed?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> They contribute to the cap.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But which cap? If I reach the rail cap then get on a bus, does the
>>>>>>>>>> ticket machine on the bus then calculate the composite cap for the
>>>>>>>>>> relevant mix of bus and rail fares before deciding how much to charge?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There isn't a rail cap. There's a bus cap and an all-modes cap.
>>>>>>>>> Currently (for a few more days!), the all-modes cap in
>>>>>>>>> Z1-2 is £7.70 and the bus cap (all zones) is £4.95.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Previous discussion suggests there is a de facto rail cap of
>>>>>>>> two-thirds of the full cap for Oyster cards linked with Railcards
>>>>>>>> (£5.13 in your example).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here's an example of how I think it should work:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Journey Std fare Cumulative Actual fare charged after cap and discount
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bus £1.65 £1.65 £1.65
>>>>>>> Train Z2-1 £2.60 £4.25 £1.73
>>>>>>> Bus (<60 min) £0.00 £4.25 £0.00
>>>>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £6.75 £1.67
>>>>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £9.25 £0.95
>>>>>>> Train Z1-2 £2.60 £11.85 £0.00
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, the total fares paid would be £6, or a discount of 22% in this case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What would happen if you went above the cap? Supposing you ran up £26
>>>>>> of tube fares, all subject to one third off [£17.33]. Would you then
>>>>>> pay the same capped amount (£7.70) as someone with no Railcard?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, as I illustrated, fares are zero once you hit the undiscounted cap. So
>>>>> any further use in those zones that day would be free.
>>>>
>>>> So in my example it would be £7.70 with or without the Senior
>>>> Railcard? I am starting to understand this.
>>>
>>>No, as I showed, the railcard reduces the cap, to £6 in this case. I think
>>>it will be between £5.13 and £7.70, depending on the rail/bus mix before
>>>you hit the cap.
>>
>>So they stop counting when the full fare reaches the cap, then apply
>>the discount next? Am I getting there.>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't know about the bus cap. I assume this is for buses only.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It applies if you only use buses in the period in question. Note that
>>>>>>> bus fares aren't zoned, so this cap applies to all
>>>>>>> London buses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is the bus cap forfeited if you travel on the tube at any time during
>>>>>> the day? Suppose you travel on lots of buses and one tube, would you
>>>>>> pay £4.95 + £2.50 = £7.45 or £7.70 (price cap)?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's supposed to pick the cheaper one automatically.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Would it be the Z1-2 price cap or all the zones where the buses went?
>>>>>
>>>>> Bus routes aren't zoned.
>>>>>
>>>> But they could form a part of an all-modes cap.
>>>
>>>Yes, of course.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you make a long bus journey into Zone 2 then use the tube, would
>>>> you benefit from the Z1-2 price cap even though your journey started
>>>> in Zone 6? In effect, is the bus treated as a part of the Zone that
>>>> is most beneficial to the capping?
>>>
>>>Buses are zoneless. The zone caps are determined by the rail stations you
>>>accessed. So use of buses never increases the number of zones you're
>>>charged for. So, you could commute from Z4 to Z2 by bus, then use any mix
>>>of transport modes all day in Z1-2, then catch the bus home from Z2, and
>>>will be charged a Z1-2 cap.
>>
>>With no need for the bus even to enter Zone 2?
>>
>There is no "Zone 2" for a bus. The entire Oyster service area is a
>single zone for buses. One single cap (for each relevant period)
>applies for trams and buses.
>Once you use a train then you move on to the higher "all services"
>daily and/or weekly caps.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tt7jia$1s0hq$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:10 on Thu, 23 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tt7grb$1rnju$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:47 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on
>>>
>>> is here a missing "only a few" here...
>>
>> No
>
> Turns out what's missing is "off peak"
>
>>>>>> Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line
>
> ...
>
>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>> simple: all rail fares
>>>
>>> Including all tube fares (see left hand/right hand, above)?
>>
>> Yes
>
> Only off-peak.

Yes, of course, just like rail fares in London and the southeast. The rules
are the same for NR, LO, EL, LU and DLR trains.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tt82hg$1ti7h$5@dont-email.me>, at 15:59:44 on Thu, 23 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <otvevhhime9g482074fks8s0u5hpncgj63@4ax.com>, at 15:10:04 on
>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> Previous discussion suggests there is a de facto rail cap of
>>>>>> two-thirds of the full cap for Oyster cards linked with Railcards
>>>>>> (£5.13 in your example).
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's an example of how I think it should work:
>>>>>
>>>>> Journey Std fare Cumulative Actual
>>>>> fare charged after cap and discount
>>>>>
>>>>> Bus £1.65 £1.65 £1.65
>>>>> Train Z2-1 £2.60 £4.25 £1.73
>>>>> Bus (<60 min) £0.00 £4.25 £0.00
>>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £6.75 £1.67
>>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £9.25 £0.95
>>>>> Train Z1-2 £2.60 £11.85 £0.00
>>>>>
>>>>> So, the total fares paid would be £6, or a discount of 22% in this case.
>>>>
>>>> What would happen if you went above the cap? Supposing you ran up £26
>>>> of tube fares, all subject to one third off [£17.33]. Would you then
>>>> pay the same capped amount (£7.70) as someone with no Railcard?
>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't know about the bus cap. I assume this is for buses only.
>>>>>
>>>>> It applies if you only use buses in the period in question. Note that
>>>>> bus fares aren't zoned, so this cap applies to all
>>>>> London buses.
>>>>
>>>> Is the bus cap forfeited if you travel on the tube at any time during
>>>> the day? Suppose you travel on lots of buses and one tube, would you
>>>> pay £4.95 + £2.50 = £7.45 or £7.70 (price cap)?
>>>
>>> In general terms, if you exceed the price cap - by embarking on many, or
>>> expensive, sectors during the day - then it doesn't really matter how
>>> many or how expensive they are, or even what they add up to.
>>>
>>>> Would it be the Z1-2 price cap or all the zones where the buses went?
>>>
>>> If you caught a one-off bus from Z2 to Z3, then the cap appropriate for
>>> Z1-3 would apply.
>>
>> Not so. Bus journeys aren't zoned.
>
> I suppose that makes some sense, because they can't tell where you got
> off the bus.
>
>>> Z1-3 Anytime & Off-Peak Adult £9.00
>>> Anytime + Railcard £9.00
>>> Offpeak + Railcard £5.95
>>
>> How do you get that?
>
> Off the TfL site's fare-finder.
>

It says, : A Travelcard or pay as you go cap does not exist for your zone
combination. We have shown the best options for your journey."

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:25:59 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 09:53:36 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 02:21:53 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 01:26:51 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 22:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>>>>>>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>>>>>>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>>>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>>>>>>>>> rail services.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Having just gone through three or four different TfL pages, they all
>>>>>>>> say this or a variation thereof :-
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Customers with an Annual Gold Card , 16-25, Senior, HM Forces,
>>>>>>>> Disabled Persons or 26-30 Digital Railcard can also get a discount set
>>>>>>>> on an Oyster card, to get a 1/3 off:
>>>>>>>> ?Off-peak pay as you go fares
>>>>>>>> ?Daily caps for travel made during off peak hours"
>>>>>>>> [https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/761219/response/1819311/attach/5/2650196521Book%203%20Discounts%20and%20Photocards%201%20March%202021%20final.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1}
>>>>>>>> [https://tinyurl.com/5brs2e45] -
>>>>>>>> [Your staff guide to fares and ticketing]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> TfL buses don't get mentioned as an exception.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've already posted the link that says, "Your National Railcard gives you
>>>>>>> discounts on the Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National
>>>>>>> Rail services".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ????
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, not taxis, buses, trams, cable cars or boats.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/national-railcard-discount
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> It doesn't say any of those are excluded other than implicitly where
>>>>>> they do not come within "off-peak pay as you go travel". Perhaps
>>>>>> somebody who has one with a relevant day's travel can check their
>>>>>> Oyster history to see where the 30% gets shaved off?
>>>>>>
>>>>> That's probably predictable. More interesting might be how the caps work in
>>>>> such cases.
>>>>
>>>> Indeed. I assume there is no mechanism to adjust the cap according to
>>>> the mix of journeys. You could argue if your final journey of the day
>>>> is by bus, you are getting it free though I very much doubt that the
>>>> allocation works in that way.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The algorithm I'd expect, but have no evidence, is that the same caps would
>>> still apply. So, rail journeys would get their promised discounts, and
>>> other journeys would not, but the cap wouldn't be reduced just because some
>>> journeys had a discount. Alternatively, the cap might be based on the
>>> undiscounted fares, with the actual rail portion of the day's spend
>>> subsequently being discounted. In effect, this would lower the cap by up to
>>> a third (but not at all, if all the journeys were by bus or tram).
>>>
>> Having dug up an old Oyster statement from 2013 (IIRC there was a
>> Railcard attached), the charging stopped part way through a journey
>> (i.e. 1-20 charged instead of 2-30) with subsequent travel shown at
>> nil cost. The journeys were shown at their full rate.
>>
>
>Can you work out whether the then full cap was applied, or whether the cap
>was reduced because of the railcard?
>
Different days had the same cap (7-70, which might indicate presence
or absence of a discount?) with different combinations of services
used. Some of the route sections are served by either or both of TfL
and NR services.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:26:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>
>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>
>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>
>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>> to the south.
>>
>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>> apply - arguably :-)
>>
>
>No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>islands.
>
The CTA applies to people but not to goods; pre-EU there were customs
posts on many border crossings in Ireland.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <4hmevhlutof14o9unb73q8j2o2m7ik3qob@4ax.com>, at 12:27:46 on
> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:28:31 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <nsgevhp2m7u6d74lesnc4b7c8ubaftuacs@4ax.com>, at 10:47:49 on
>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>> card.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>
>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>
>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>
>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>
>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>
>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>
>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>
>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>
>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>> we think.
>>>>
>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>> journey). My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>
>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>
>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>
> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't necessarily the same
> as the National Rail fare between A and B (via perhaps D). So the fare
> you are discounting by a third won't be the same. But at least it'd be
> clear which of the two to discount.
>
> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking to one mode
> all the way, the undiscounted fare is difficult to know especially when
> the system can't tell where you made the modal change (in the
> circumstances there are no barriers to go through where you change
> modes).

Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations like Farringdon
and Stratford.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 20:39:22 +0000, Charles Ellson
> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 18:53:38 +0000, Scott
>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 16:13:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 15:43:45 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 14:11:59 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:50:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:13:02 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:49:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:37:18 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:22:04 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:57:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> journey).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As is any journey once the cap is reached. The question is whether
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bus operator gets any part of the fare or are they paid a contract
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rate to run the service irrespective of the number of passengers? I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought there might be an incentive payment, but I genuinely don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think London bus operators are just paid a fee to run the service.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The fare revenues certainly don't affect their fees
>>>>>>>>>>>> (remember that, for one reason or another, most passengers aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>> paying bus fares). The numbers of passengers are
>>>>>>>>>>>> counted, but I'm not sure if it affects the fees they receive. They
>>>>>>>>>>>> are probably rewarded/penalised based on quality
>>>>>>>>>>>> factors, like cancelled buses, poor maintenance, punctuality,
>>>>>>>>>>>> passenger complaint rates, cleanliness, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is probably right. Like SQUIRE on ScotRail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simple: all rail fares have the discount applied before being added to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> running total. If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> modes are free (in the same zones, of course).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This would mean using a reduced cap. Surely this would then create
>>>>>>>>>>>>> confusion if a bus journey were to be interspersed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> They contribute to the cap.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But which cap? If I reach the rail cap then get on a bus, does the
>>>>>>>>>>> ticket machine on the bus then calculate the composite cap for the
>>>>>>>>>>> relevant mix of bus and rail fares before deciding how much to charge?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There isn't a rail cap. There's a bus cap and an all-modes cap.
>>>>>>>>>> Currently (for a few more days!), the all-modes cap in
>>>>>>>>>> Z1-2 is £7.70 and the bus cap (all zones) is £4.95.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Previous discussion suggests there is a de facto rail cap of
>>>>>>>>> two-thirds of the full cap for Oyster cards linked with Railcards
>>>>>>>>> (£5.13 in your example).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here's an example of how I think it should work:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Journey Std fare Cumulative Actual fare charged after cap and discount
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bus £1.65 £1.65 £1.65
>>>>>>>> Train Z2-1 £2.60 £4.25 £1.73
>>>>>>>> Bus (<60 min) £0.00 £4.25 £0.00
>>>>>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £6.75 £1.67
>>>>>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £9.25 £0.95
>>>>>>>> Train Z1-2 £2.60 £11.85 £0.00
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, the total fares paid would be £6, or a discount of 22% in this case.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What would happen if you went above the cap? Supposing you ran up £26
>>>>>>> of tube fares, all subject to one third off [£17.33]. Would you then
>>>>>>> pay the same capped amount (£7.70) as someone with no Railcard?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, as I illustrated, fares are zero once you hit the undiscounted cap. So
>>>>>> any further use in those zones that day would be free.
>>>>>
>>>>> So in my example it would be £7.70 with or without the Senior
>>>>> Railcard? I am starting to understand this.
>>>>
>>>> No, as I showed, the railcard reduces the cap, to £6 in this case. I think
>>>> it will be between £5.13 and £7.70, depending on the rail/bus mix before
>>>> you hit the cap.
>>>
>>> So they stop counting when the full fare reaches the cap, then apply
>>> the discount next? Am I getting there.>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I didn't know about the bus cap. I assume this is for buses only.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It applies if you only use buses in the period in question. Note that
>>>>>>>> bus fares aren't zoned, so this cap applies to all
>>>>>>>> London buses.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is the bus cap forfeited if you travel on the tube at any time during
>>>>>>> the day? Suppose you travel on lots of buses and one tube, would you
>>>>>>> pay £4.95 + £2.50 = £7.45 or £7.70 (price cap)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's supposed to pick the cheaper one automatically.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Would it be the Z1-2 price cap or all the zones where the buses went?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bus routes aren't zoned.
>>>>>>
>>>>> But they could form a part of an all-modes cap.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, of course.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you make a long bus journey into Zone 2 then use the tube, would
>>>>> you benefit from the Z1-2 price cap even though your journey started
>>>>> in Zone 6? In effect, is the bus treated as a part of the Zone that
>>>>> is most beneficial to the capping?
>>>>
>>>> Buses are zoneless. The zone caps are determined by the rail stations you
>>>> accessed. So use of buses never increases the number of zones you're
>>>> charged for. So, you could commute from Z4 to Z2 by bus, then use any mix
>>>> of transport modes all day in Z1-2, then catch the bus home from Z2, and
>>>> will be charged a Z1-2 cap.
>>>
>>> With no need for the bus even to enter Zone 2?
>>>
>> There is no "Zone 2" for a bus. The entire Oyster service area is a
>> single zone for buses. One single cap (for each relevant period)
>> applies for trams and buses.
>> Once you use a train then you move on to the higher "all services"
>> daily and/or weekly caps.
>
> This was becoming my understanding. You could spend all morning on the
> buses in Zone 6 then move (somehow) to Zone 2 and spend the afternoon
> on the tubes and only pay the Z1-2 cap. I suppose this is the
> inevitable consequence of buses being non-zonal.
>>
>> Putting it another way you have two travel contexts to consider :-
>> 1. Bus and tram only.
>> 2. Railway (with/without bus or tram).
>>
>> The calculation of the cap for No.2 ignores any journeys in No.1.
>
> I'm sure someone else said the caps are:
> 1. Bus and tram only
> 2. All-modes
> and No 2 includes journeys in No 1.
>
> I thought the cap applied to all journeys within the Zone(s).

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:26:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>
>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>
>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>> to the south.
>>>
>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>
>>
>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>> islands.
>>
> The CTA applies to people but not to goods; pre-EU there were customs
> posts on many border crossings in Ireland.
>

Schengen also applies to people but not to goods.

On 23/02/2023 21:26, Recliner wrote:
> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>
>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>
>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>
>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>> to the south.
>>
>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>> apply - arguably :-)
>>
>
> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
> islands.
>
I thought joining Schengen was compulsory when joining the EU now?

How are we going to organise the border for those crossing it on the train.

On 23/02/2023 22:00, Coffee wrote:
> On 23/02/2023 21:26, Recliner wrote:
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus
>>>>>>> passes
>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced
>>>>>>> as buses,
>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to
>>>>>> use my
>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading
>>>>>> timetables
>>>>>> and T&C.  :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>
>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>
>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>> to the south.
>>>
>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>
>>
>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>> islands.
>>
> I thought joining Schengen was compulsory when joining the EU now?
>
> How are we going to organise the border for those crossing it on the train.

Everybody off at Carlisle or Berwick.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 23/02/2023 21:26, Recliner wrote:
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>
>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>
>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>> to the south.
>>>
>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>
>>
>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>> islands.
>>
> I thought joining Schengen was compulsory when joining the EU now?

No, not all EU members are in Schengen, and not all Schengen members are in
the EU, or have any intention of joining.

>
> How are we going to organise the border for those crossing it on the train.

No different to the Dublin-Belfast trains.

On 23/02/2023 22:12, Recliner wrote:
> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 23/02/2023 21:26, Recliner wrote:
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>>
>>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>>> to the south.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>>> islands.
>>>
>> I thought joining Schengen was compulsory when joining the EU now?
>
> No, not all EU members are in Schengen, and not all Schengen members are in
> the EU, or have any intention of joining.
That's historic. It's compulsory now.
>
>>
>> How are we going to organise the border for those crossing it on the train.
>
> No different to the Dublin-Belfast trains.

The Dublin-Belfast trains are both in the CTA.

Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 23/02/2023 22:12, Recliner wrote:
>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 23/02/2023 21:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>>>> to the south.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>>>> islands.
>>>>
>>> I thought joining Schengen was compulsory when joining the EU now?
>>
>> No, not all EU members are in Schengen, and not all Schengen members are in
>> the EU, or have any intention of joining.
> That's historic. It's compulsory now.
>>
>>>
>>> How are we going to organise the border for those crossing it on the train.
>>
>> No different to the Dublin-Belfast trains.
>
> The Dublin-Belfast trains are both in the CTA.
>
>

As would be London-Aberdeen trains.

On 23/02/2023 18:46, Scott wrote:
> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
> apply - arguably 😄

You cannot REjoin something that you have not previously been a member.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:36:06 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tt7jia$1s0hq$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:10 on Thu, 23 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tt7grb$1rnju$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:47 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on
>>>>
>>>> is here a missing "only a few" here...
>>>
>>> No
>>
>> Turns out what's missing is "off peak"
>>
>>>>>>> Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line
>>
>> ...
>>
>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>> simple: all rail fares
>>>>
>>>> Including all tube fares (see left hand/right hand, above)?
>>>
>>> Yes
>>
>> Only off-peak.
>
>Yes, of course, just like rail fares in London and the southeast. The rules
>are the same for NR, LO, EL, LU and DLR trains.
>
Not on LO; peak travel on the DC line on weekdays is when you are
travelling against the peak flow. ICBA to check the whole of Greater
London but there were also various routes with no evening peak.