Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 09:53:36 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 02:21:53 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 01:26:51 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 22:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>>>>>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>>>>>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>>>>>>>> rail services.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Having just gone through three or four different TfL pages, they all
>>>>>>> say this or a variation thereof :-
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Customers with an Annual Gold Card , 16-25, Senior, HM Forces,
>>>>>>> Disabled Persons or 26-30 Digital Railcard can also get a discount set
>>>>>>> on an Oyster card, to get a 1/3 off:
>>>>>>> ?Off-peak pay as you go fares
>>>>>>> ?Daily caps for travel made during off peak hours"
>>>>>>> [https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/761219/response/1819311/attach/5/2650196521Book%203%20Discounts%20and%20Photocards%201%20March%202021%20final.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1}
>>>>>>> [https://tinyurl.com/5brs2e45] -
>>>>>>> [Your staff guide to fares and ticketing]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TfL buses don't get mentioned as an exception.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've already posted the link that says, "Your National Railcard gives you
>>>>>> discounts on the Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National
>>>>>> Rail services".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ????
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, not taxis, buses, trams, cable cars or boats.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/national-railcard-discount
>>>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't say any of those are excluded other than implicitly where
>>>>> they do not come within "off-peak pay as you go travel". Perhaps
>>>>> somebody who has one with a relevant day's travel can check their
>>>>> Oyster history to see where the 30% gets shaved off?
>>>>>
>>>> That's probably predictable. More interesting might be how the caps work in
>>>> such cases.
>>>
>>> Indeed. I assume there is no mechanism to adjust the cap according to
>>> the mix of journeys. You could argue if your final journey of the day
>>> is by bus, you are getting it free though I very much doubt that the
>>> allocation works in that way.
>>>
>> The algorithm I'd expect, but have no evidence, is that the same caps would
>> still apply. So, rail journeys would get their promised discounts, and
>> other journeys would not, but the cap wouldn't be reduced just because some
>> journeys had a discount. Alternatively, the cap might be based on the
>> undiscounted fares, with the actual rail portion of the day's spend
>> subsequently being discounted. In effect, this would lower the cap by up to
>> a third (but not at all, if all the journeys were by bus or tram).
>
> I was told by a TfL staff member that the cap is reduced by one-third.
> I accept this may have been a misunderstanding of a complex subject.
>

Yes, I suspect so. That suggests that they're using my second (more
generous) suggested algorithm, so the cap could reduce by up to a third
(ie, no reduction if you only used buses and trams, but a reduction of a
third if you only used trains).

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>
>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>> card.
>>
>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>
>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>> overcharged
>>
>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>
>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>
>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>
>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>
>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>
>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>> card is used?
>>
>> From the TfL website:
>>
>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>
>> But from the card's T&C:
>>
>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>
>> Left hand/right hand?
>>
>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>
>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>
>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>> we think.
>
> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
> journey).

Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.

> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
> journeys are effectively freebies.
>

Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
simple: all rail fares have the discount applied before being added to the
running total. If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all
modes are free (in the same zones, of course).

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>
>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>> card.
>>>
>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>
>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>> overcharged
>>>
>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>
>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>
>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>
>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>
>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>
>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>> card is used?
>>>
>>> From the TfL website:
>>>
>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>
>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>
>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>
>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>
>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>
>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>
>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>> we think.
>>
>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>> journey).
>
> Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
> even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.
>
>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>
>
> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
> simple: all rail fares have the discount applied before being added to the
> running total. If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all
> modes are free (in the same zones, of course).

Or maybe I got that the wrong way round!

Maybe they calculate the running total based on the normal fares, and
calculate when the cap is reached on that basis? All subsequent journeys
are free. They then calculate the actual charge to the card by applying the
discount to the pre-cap rail fares.

In message <tt7foc$1rjs7$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:39:08 on Thu, 23 Feb
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:24:10 +0000
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>In message <tt7d30$1rajl$6@dont-email.me>, at 09:53:36 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>> On 22/02/2023 22:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass…
>>>>>
>>>>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>>>>> rail services.
>>>>
>>>> People are also often confused by thinking of trams as part of the bus
>>>> system but like trains, bus passes do not include them out of area.
>>>
>>>It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>
>>When the current Nottingham Tram system was introduced, it was priced as
>>if it was a bus, and included on all-day-bus-tickets.
>>
>>However, to finance Phase 2 it became a completely separate network.
>
>Any further extensions currently planned (as opposed to suggested)?

The extension to Toton (which is in fact very short) was part of the HS2
station scheme, and the local transportation plan says that if the HS2
station is built that will mean they can also justify extending the tram
to the airport (which is much further).

Relatively speaking the south-of-the-river extension has been a flop,
probably because it has a comparatively small catchment area, and is not
much of an improvement on the bus services.
--
Roland Perry

In message <nsgevhp2m7u6d74lesnc4b7c8ubaftuacs@4ax.com>, at 10:47:49 on
Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>
>>>I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>card.
>>
>>No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>
>>>If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>overcharged
>>
>>In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>payment methods would facilitate.
>>
>>>and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>
>>There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>
>>>Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>
>>Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>
>>>Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>card is used?
>>
>>From the TfL website:
>>
>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>
>>But from the card's T&C:
>>
>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>
>>Left hand/right hand?
>>
>>>I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>(thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>
>>As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>
>>If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>we think.
>
>No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>journey). My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>journeys are effectively freebies.

I meant a mixture of railway modes.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tt7fok$1rjsn$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:39:16 on Thu, 23 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>
>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>> card.
>>
>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>
>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>> overcharged
>>
>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>
>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>
>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>
>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>
>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>
>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>> card is used?
>>
>> From the TfL website:
>>
>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>
>> But from the card's T&C:
>>
>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>
>> Left hand/right hand?
>
>I see no conflict. Both statements are true, and they don't contradict each
>other.

There's an inclusion list, followed by an exclusion list. With a big
undefined overlap in the middle.

At the very least the TfL site should say something like "only some
services on the following...", but then "all NR".

>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>
>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>
>Yes, it can, but why does it matter? The rail card discount applies
>equally to both.

So that would be a tube trip that's *not* one of the "most" for which
the T&C say the card *isn't* valid?

>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>> we think.
>
>Mixed rail modes are fine, as they all qualify for the same discount, while
>bus and tram fares are obviously separate.
>
>One other issue is that Oyster doesn't cover some TfL routes, such as to
>Reading, and the cc cards used on those journeys don't yet get the rail
>card discount.

It's all a bit of a muddle, isn't it!
--
Roland Perry

In message <tt7grb$1rnju$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:47 on Thu, 23 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>
>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>> card.
>>>
>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>
>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>> overcharged
>>>
>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>
>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>
>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>
>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>
>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>
>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>> card is used?
>>>
>>> From the TfL website:
>>>
>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on

is here a missing "only a few" here...

>>>Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line

....and a missing "however all" here?

>>> National Rail services"

>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>
>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>
>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>
>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>
>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>
>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>> we think.
>>
>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>> journey).
>
>Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
>even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.
>
>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>
>
>Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>simple: all rail fares

Including all tube fares (see left hand/right hand, above)?

> have the discount applied before being added to the running total.
>If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all modes are
>free (in the same zones, of course).

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tt7grb$1rnju$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:47 on Thu, 23 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>> card.
>>>>
>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>
>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>> overcharged
>>>>
>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>
>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>
>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>
>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>
>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>
>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>> card is used?
>>>>
>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>
>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on
>
> is here a missing "only a few" here...

No

>
>>>> Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line
>
> ...and a missing "however all" here?

No

There's nothing wrong with the wording you've queried.

>
>>>> National Rail services"
>
>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>
>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>
>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>
>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>
>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>
>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>> we think.
>>>
>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>> journey).
>>
>> Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
>> even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.
>>
>>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>
>>
>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>> simple: all rail fares
>
> Including all tube fares (see left hand/right hand, above)?

Yes

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tt7fok$1rjsn$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:39:16 on Thu, 23 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>
>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>> card.
>>>
>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>
>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>> overcharged
>>>
>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>
>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>
>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>
>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>
>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>
>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>> card is used?
>>>
>>> From the TfL website:
>>>
>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>
>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>
>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>
>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>
>> I see no conflict. Both statements are true, and they don't contradict each
>> other.
>
> There's an inclusion list, followed by an exclusion list. With a big
> undefined overlap in the middle.
>
> At the very least the TfL site should say something like "only some
> services on the following...", but then "all NR".

I don't know what you're quibbling about. Both web sites are correct.

>
>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>
>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>
>> Yes, it can, but why does it matter? The rail card discount applies
>> equally to both.
>
> So that would be a tube trip that's *not* one of the "most" for which
> the T&C say the card *isn't* valid?

All Tube trips are included.

>
>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>> we think.
>>
>> Mixed rail modes are fine, as they all qualify for the same discount, while
>> bus and tram fares are obviously separate.
>>
>> One other issue is that Oyster doesn't cover some TfL routes, such as to
>> Reading, and the cc cards used on those journeys don't yet get the rail
>> card discount.
>
> It's all a bit of a muddle, isn't it!

No.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:50:15 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 09:53:36 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 02:21:53 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 01:26:51 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 22:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>>>>>>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>>>>>>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>>>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>>>>>>>>> rail services.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Having just gone through three or four different TfL pages, they all
>>>>>>>> say this or a variation thereof :-
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Customers with an Annual Gold Card , 16-25, Senior, HM Forces,
>>>>>>>> Disabled Persons or 26-30 Digital Railcard can also get a discount set
>>>>>>>> on an Oyster card, to get a 1/3 off:
>>>>>>>> ?Off-peak pay as you go fares
>>>>>>>> ?Daily caps for travel made during off peak hours"
>>>>>>>> [https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/761219/response/1819311/attach/5/2650196521Book%203%20Discounts%20and%20Photocards%201%20March%202021%20final.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1}
>>>>>>>> [https://tinyurl.com/5brs2e45] -
>>>>>>>> [Your staff guide to fares and ticketing]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> TfL buses don't get mentioned as an exception.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've already posted the link that says, "Your National Railcard gives you
>>>>>>> discounts on the Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National
>>>>>>> Rail services".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ????
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, not taxis, buses, trams, cable cars or boats.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/national-railcard-discount
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> It doesn't say any of those are excluded other than implicitly where
>>>>>> they do not come within "off-peak pay as you go travel". Perhaps
>>>>>> somebody who has one with a relevant day's travel can check their
>>>>>> Oyster history to see where the 30% gets shaved off?
>>>>>>
>>>>> That's probably predictable. More interesting might be how the caps work in
>>>>> such cases.
>>>>
>>>> Indeed. I assume there is no mechanism to adjust the cap according to
>>>> the mix of journeys. You could argue if your final journey of the day
>>>> is by bus, you are getting it free though I very much doubt that the
>>>> allocation works in that way.
>>>>
>>> The algorithm I'd expect, but have no evidence, is that the same caps would
>>> still apply. So, rail journeys would get their promised discounts, and
>>> other journeys would not, but the cap wouldn't be reduced just because some
>>> journeys had a discount. Alternatively, the cap might be based on the
>>> undiscounted fares, with the actual rail portion of the day's spend
>>> subsequently being discounted. In effect, this would lower the cap by up to
>>> a third (but not at all, if all the journeys were by bus or tram).
>>
>> I was told by a TfL staff member that the cap is reduced by one-third.
>> I accept this may have been a misunderstanding of a complex subject.
>>
>Yes, I suspect so. That suggests that they're using my second (more
>generous) suggested algorithm, so the cap could reduce by up to a third
>(ie, no reduction if you only used buses and trams, but a reduction of a
>third if you only used trains).

He didn't say up to one-third; he said one-third off.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:13:30 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:50:15 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 09:53:36 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 02:21:53 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 01:26:51 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 22:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>>>>>>>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>>>>>>>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>>>>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>>>>>>>>>> rail services.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Having just gone through three or four different TfL pages, they all
>>>>>>>>> say this or a variation thereof :-
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Customers with an Annual Gold Card , 16-25, Senior, HM Forces,
>>>>>>>>> Disabled Persons or 26-30 Digital Railcard can also get a discount set
>>>>>>>>> on an Oyster card, to get a 1/3 off:
>>>>>>>>> ?Off-peak pay as you go fares
>>>>>>>>> ?Daily caps for travel made during off peak hours"
>>>>>>>>> [https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/761219/response/1819311/attach/5/2650196521Book%203%20Discounts%20and%20Photocards%201%20March%202021%20final.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1}
>>>>>>>>> [https://tinyurl.com/5brs2e45] -
>>>>>>>>> [Your staff guide to fares and ticketing]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> TfL buses don't get mentioned as an exception.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've already posted the link that says, "Your National Railcard gives you
>>>>>>>> discounts on the Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National
>>>>>>>> Rail services".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ????
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, not taxis, buses, trams, cable cars or boats.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/national-railcard-discount
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It doesn't say any of those are excluded other than implicitly where
>>>>>>> they do not come within "off-peak pay as you go travel". Perhaps
>>>>>>> somebody who has one with a relevant day's travel can check their
>>>>>>> Oyster history to see where the 30% gets shaved off?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's probably predictable. More interesting might be how the caps work in
>>>>>> such cases.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed. I assume there is no mechanism to adjust the cap according to
>>>>> the mix of journeys. You could argue if your final journey of the day
>>>>> is by bus, you are getting it free though I very much doubt that the
>>>>> allocation works in that way.
>>>>>
>>>> The algorithm I'd expect, but have no evidence, is that the same caps would
>>>> still apply. So, rail journeys would get their promised discounts, and
>>>> other journeys would not, but the cap wouldn't be reduced just because some
>>>> journeys had a discount. Alternatively, the cap might be based on the
>>>> undiscounted fares, with the actual rail portion of the day's spend
>>>> subsequently being discounted. In effect, this would lower the cap by up to
>>>> a third (but not at all, if all the journeys were by bus or tram).
>>>
>>> I was told by a TfL staff member that the cap is reduced by one-third.
>>> I accept this may have been a misunderstanding of a complex subject.
>>>
>>Yes, I suspect so. That suggests that they're using my second (more
>>generous) suggested algorithm, so the cap could reduce by up to a third
>>(ie, no reduction if you only used buses and trams, but a reduction of a
>>third if you only used trains).
>
>He didn't say up to one-third; he said one-third off.

Yes, I think he was simply wrong. Will you be able to check from the transactions on your online Oyster account?

On 23/02/2023 11:44, Recliner wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>
>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>
>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>
>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."

<snip>

> All Tube trips are included.

The first part certainly implies that some or all Tube trips are
included, but how does that reconcile with "Railcard discounts do
not apply to ... most London Underground ... tickets"? Genuine
question; I'm not trying to pick holes in anyone's argument.

It might mean that rail tickets with a Maltese cross attract a
discount despite being valid on the Tube, but "London Underground
tickets" valid only on the Tube[1] do not, but other comments imply
that it is much more liberal.

[1] and subsurface lines and DLR and various other odds and ends

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:57:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>
>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>> card.
>>>
>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>
>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>> overcharged
>>>
>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>
>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>
>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>
>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>
>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>
>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>> card is used?
>>>
>>> From the TfL website:
>>>
>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>
>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>
>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>
>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>
>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>
>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>
>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>> we think.
>>
>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>> journey).
>
>Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
>even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.

As is any journey once the cap is reached. The question is whether
the bus operator gets any part of the fare or are they paid a contract
rate to run the service irrespective of the number of passengers? I
thought there might be an incentive payment, but I genuinely don't
know.
>
>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>
>
>Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>simple: all rail fares have the discount applied before being added to the
>running total. If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all
>modes are free (in the same zones, of course).
>
This would mean using a reduced cap. Surely this would then create
confusion if a bus journey were to be interspersed?

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:28:31 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <nsgevhp2m7u6d74lesnc4b7c8ubaftuacs@4ax.com>, at 10:47:49 on
>Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>
>>>>I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>card.
>>>
>>>No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>
>>>>If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>overcharged
>>>
>>>In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>payment methods would facilitate.
>>>
>>>>and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>
>>>There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>
>>>>Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>
>>>Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>
>>>>Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>card is used?
>>>
>>>From the TfL website:
>>>
>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>
>>>But from the card's T&C:
>>>
>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>
>>>Left hand/right hand?
>>>
>>>>I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>(thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>
>>>As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>
>>>If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>we think.
>>
>>No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>journey). My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>journeys are effectively freebies.
>
>I meant a mixture of railway modes.

Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount? The unresolved question is how combinations of bus and
discounted rail journeys are affected by the cap.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:20:31 +0000, Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:13:30 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:50:15 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 09:53:36 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 02:21:53 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 01:26:51 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 22:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/02/2023 20:28, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>>>>> card. If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>>>> card is used? I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> accounting terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> journeys can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have a bus pass then you just show it on boarding buses in London.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>>>>>>>>>>> rail services.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Having just gone through three or four different TfL pages, they all
>>>>>>>>>> say this or a variation thereof :-
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Customers with an Annual Gold Card , 16-25, Senior, HM Forces,
>>>>>>>>>> Disabled Persons or 26-30 Digital Railcard can also get a discount set
>>>>>>>>>> on an Oyster card, to get a 1/3 off:
>>>>>>>>>> ?Off-peak pay as you go fares
>>>>>>>>>> ?Daily caps for travel made during off peak hours"
>>>>>>>>>> [https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/761219/response/1819311/attach/5/2650196521Book%203%20Discounts%20and%20Photocards%201%20March%202021%20final.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1}
>>>>>>>>>> [https://tinyurl.com/5brs2e45] -
>>>>>>>>>> [Your staff guide to fares and ticketing]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TfL buses don't get mentioned as an exception.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've already posted the link that says, "Your National Railcard gives you
>>>>>>>>> discounts on the Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National
>>>>>>>>> Rail services".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ????
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, not taxis, buses, trams, cable cars or boats.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/national-railcard-discount
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It doesn't say any of those are excluded other than implicitly where
>>>>>>>> they do not come within "off-peak pay as you go travel". Perhaps
>>>>>>>> somebody who has one with a relevant day's travel can check their
>>>>>>>> Oyster history to see where the 30% gets shaved off?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's probably predictable. More interesting might be how the caps work in
>>>>>>> such cases.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed. I assume there is no mechanism to adjust the cap according to
>>>>>> the mix of journeys. You could argue if your final journey of the day
>>>>>> is by bus, you are getting it free though I very much doubt that the
>>>>>> allocation works in that way.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The algorithm I'd expect, but have no evidence, is that the same caps would
>>>>> still apply. So, rail journeys would get their promised discounts, and
>>>>> other journeys would not, but the cap wouldn't be reduced just because some
>>>>> journeys had a discount. Alternatively, the cap might be based on the
>>>>> undiscounted fares, with the actual rail portion of the day's spend
>>>>> subsequently being discounted. In effect, this would lower the cap by up to
>>>>> a third (but not at all, if all the journeys were by bus or tram).
>>>>
>>>> I was told by a TfL staff member that the cap is reduced by one-third.
>>>> I accept this may have been a misunderstanding of a complex subject.
>>>>
>>>Yes, I suspect so. That suggests that they're using my second (more
>>>generous) suggested algorithm, so the cap could reduce by up to a third
>>>(ie, no reduction if you only used buses and trams, but a reduction of a
>>>third if you only used trains).
>>
>>He didn't say up to one-third; he said one-third off.
>
>Yes, I think he was simply wrong. Will you be able to check from the transactions on your online Oyster account?

I'll try that. That may enlighten us all.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:22:04 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:57:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>> card.
>>>>
>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>
>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>> overcharged
>>>>
>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>
>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>
>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>
>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>
>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>
>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>> card is used?
>>>>
>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>
>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>
>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>
>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>
>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>
>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>
>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>
>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>> we think.
>>>
>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>> journey).
>>
>>Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
>>even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.
>
>As is any journey once the cap is reached. The question is whether
>the bus operator gets any part of the fare or are they paid a contract
>rate to run the service irrespective of the number of passengers? I
>thought there might be an incentive payment, but I genuinely don't
>know.

I think London bus operators are just paid a fee to run the service. The fare revenues certainly don't affect their fees
(remember that, for one reason or another, most passengers aren't paying bus fares). The numbers of passengers are
counted, but I'm not sure if it affects the fees they receive. They are probably rewarded/penalised based on quality
factors, like cancelled buses, poor maintenance, punctuality, passenger complaint rates, cleanliness, etc.

>>
>>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>
>>
>>Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>simple: all rail fares have the discount applied before being added to the
>>running total. If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all
>>modes are free (in the same zones, of course).
>>
>This would mean using a reduced cap. Surely this would then create
>confusion if a bus journey were to be interspersed?

They contribute to the cap.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:21:09 +0000, Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:

>On 23/02/2023 11:44, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>
>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>
><snip>
>
>> All Tube trips are included.
>
>The first part certainly implies that some or all Tube trips are
>included, but how does that reconcile with "Railcard discounts do
>not apply to ... most London Underground ... tickets"? Genuine
>question; I'm not trying to pick holes in anyone's argument.

The key word is *tickets*. Oyster card users don't have tickets.

Cc card users also don't get the discount, as there isn't yet a way of registering a rail card to a cc card.

>
>It might mean that rail tickets with a Maltese cross attract a
>discount despite being valid on the Tube, but "London Underground
>tickets" valid only on the Tube[1] do not, but other comments imply
>that it is much more liberal.

Registered Oyster users get the rail card discount, others don't.

>
>[1] and subsurface lines and DLR and various other odds and ends

Same rules.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:37:18 +0000, Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:22:04 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:57:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>> card.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>
>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>
>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>
>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>
>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>
>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>
>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>
>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>
>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>> we think.
>>>>
>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>> journey).
>>>
>>>Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
>>>even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.
>>
>>As is any journey once the cap is reached. The question is whether
>>the bus operator gets any part of the fare or are they paid a contract
>>rate to run the service irrespective of the number of passengers? I
>>thought there might be an incentive payment, but I genuinely don't
>>know.
>
>I think London bus operators are just paid a fee to run the service. The fare revenues certainly don't affect their fees
>(remember that, for one reason or another, most passengers aren't paying bus fares). The numbers of passengers are
>counted, but I'm not sure if it affects the fees they receive. They are probably rewarded/penalised based on quality
>factors, like cancelled buses, poor maintenance, punctuality, passenger complaint rates, cleanliness, etc.

This is probably right. Like SQUIRE on ScotRail.
>>>
>>>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>simple: all rail fares have the discount applied before being added to the
>>>running total. If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all
>>>modes are free (in the same zones, of course).
>>>
>>This would mean using a reduced cap. Surely this would then create
>>confusion if a bus journey were to be interspersed?
>
>They contribute to the cap.

But which cap? If I reach the rail cap then get on a bus, does the
ticket machine on the bus then calculate the composite cap for the
relevant mix of bus and rail fares before deciding how much to charge?

On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.

When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
and T&C. :-)

My brother is a frequent visitor to Blackpool and I know some years he
mentioned that he had been surprised that his Bury bus pass did get him
free travel.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:49:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:37:18 +0000, Recliner
><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:22:04 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:57:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>> journey).
>>>>
>>>>Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
>>>>even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.
>>>
>>>As is any journey once the cap is reached. The question is whether
>>>the bus operator gets any part of the fare or are they paid a contract
>>>rate to run the service irrespective of the number of passengers? I
>>>thought there might be an incentive payment, but I genuinely don't
>>>know.
>>
>>I think London bus operators are just paid a fee to run the service. The fare revenues certainly don't affect their fees
>>(remember that, for one reason or another, most passengers aren't paying bus fares). The numbers of passengers are
>>counted, but I'm not sure if it affects the fees they receive. They are probably rewarded/penalised based on quality
>>factors, like cancelled buses, poor maintenance, punctuality, passenger complaint rates, cleanliness, etc.
>
>This is probably right. Like SQUIRE on ScotRail.
>>>>
>>>>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>simple: all rail fares have the discount applied before being added to the
>>>>running total. If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all
>>>>modes are free (in the same zones, of course).
>>>>
>>>This would mean using a reduced cap. Surely this would then create
>>>confusion if a bus journey were to be interspersed?
>>
>>They contribute to the cap.
>
>But which cap? If I reach the rail cap then get on a bus, does the
>ticket machine on the bus then calculate the composite cap for the
>relevant mix of bus and rail fares before deciding how much to charge?

There isn't a rail cap. There's a bus cap and an all-modes cap. Currently (for a few more days!), the all-modes cap in
Z1-2 is £7.70 and the bus cap (all zones) is £4.95.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>
>When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>and T&C. :-)
>
>My brother is a frequent visitor to Blackpool and I know some years he
>mentioned that he had been surprised that his Bury bus pass did get him
>free travel.
>

My London Freedom Pass doesn't.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>
>When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>and T&C. :-)
>
If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:13:02 +0000, Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:49:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:37:18 +0000, Recliner
>><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:22:04 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:57:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>> journey).
>>>>>
>>>>>Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
>>>>>even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.
>>>>
>>>>As is any journey once the cap is reached. The question is whether
>>>>the bus operator gets any part of the fare or are they paid a contract
>>>>rate to run the service irrespective of the number of passengers? I
>>>>thought there might be an incentive payment, but I genuinely don't
>>>>know.
>>>
>>>I think London bus operators are just paid a fee to run the service. The fare revenues certainly don't affect their fees
>>>(remember that, for one reason or another, most passengers aren't paying bus fares). The numbers of passengers are
>>>counted, but I'm not sure if it affects the fees they receive. They are probably rewarded/penalised based on quality
>>>factors, like cancelled buses, poor maintenance, punctuality, passenger complaint rates, cleanliness, etc.
>>
>>This is probably right. Like SQUIRE on ScotRail.
>>>>>
>>>>>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>simple: all rail fares have the discount applied before being added to the
>>>>>running total. If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all
>>>>>modes are free (in the same zones, of course).
>>>>>
>>>>This would mean using a reduced cap. Surely this would then create
>>>>confusion if a bus journey were to be interspersed?
>>>
>>>They contribute to the cap.
>>
>>But which cap? If I reach the rail cap then get on a bus, does the
>>ticket machine on the bus then calculate the composite cap for the
>>relevant mix of bus and rail fares before deciding how much to charge?
>
>There isn't a rail cap. There's a bus cap and an all-modes cap. Currently (for a few more days!), the all-modes cap in
>Z1-2 is £7.70 and the bus cap (all zones) is £4.95.

Previous discussion suggests there is a de facto rail cap of
two-thirds of the full cap for Oyster cards linked with Railcards
(£5.13 in your example). I didn't know about the bus cap. I assume
this is for buses only.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:50:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:13:02 +0000, Recliner
><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:49:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:37:18 +0000, Recliner
>>><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:22:04 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:57:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>>> journey).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
>>>>>>even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.
>>>>>
>>>>>As is any journey once the cap is reached. The question is whether
>>>>>the bus operator gets any part of the fare or are they paid a contract
>>>>>rate to run the service irrespective of the number of passengers? I
>>>>>thought there might be an incentive payment, but I genuinely don't
>>>>>know.
>>>>
>>>>I think London bus operators are just paid a fee to run the service. The fare revenues certainly don't affect their fees
>>>>(remember that, for one reason or another, most passengers aren't paying bus fares). The numbers of passengers are
>>>>counted, but I'm not sure if it affects the fees they receive. They are probably rewarded/penalised based on quality
>>>>factors, like cancelled buses, poor maintenance, punctuality, passenger complaint rates, cleanliness, etc.
>>>
>>>This is probably right. Like SQUIRE on ScotRail.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>>simple: all rail fares have the discount applied before being added to the
>>>>>>running total. If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all
>>>>>>modes are free (in the same zones, of course).
>>>>>>
>>>>>This would mean using a reduced cap. Surely this would then create
>>>>>confusion if a bus journey were to be interspersed?
>>>>
>>>>They contribute to the cap.
>>>
>>>But which cap? If I reach the rail cap then get on a bus, does the
>>>ticket machine on the bus then calculate the composite cap for the
>>>relevant mix of bus and rail fares before deciding how much to charge?
>>
>>There isn't a rail cap. There's a bus cap and an all-modes cap. Currently (for a few more days!), the all-modes cap in
>>Z1-2 is £7.70 and the bus cap (all zones) is £4.95.
>
>Previous discussion suggests there is a de facto rail cap of
>two-thirds of the full cap for Oyster cards linked with Railcards
>(£5.13 in your example).

Here's an example of how I think it should work:

Journey Std fare Cumulative Actual fare charged after cap and discount

Bus £1.65 £1.65 £1.65
Train Z2-1 £2.60 £4.25 £1.73
Bus (<60 min) £0.00 £4.25 £0.00
Tube Z1 £2.50 £6.75 £1.67
Tube Z1 £2.50 £9.25 £0.95
Train Z1-2 £2.60 £11.85 £0.00

So, the total fares paid would be £6, or a discount of 22% in this case.

> I didn't know about the bus cap. I assume this is for buses only.

It applies if you only use buses in the period in question. Note that bus fares aren't zoned, so this cap applies to all
London buses.

In message <tt7g59$1rlep$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:46:01 on Thu, 23 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tt7d30$1rajl$6@dont-email.me>, at 09:53:36 on Thu, 23 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>> On 22/02/2023 22:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Not with a Scottish bus pass…
>>>>>
>>>>> The point was that railcard discounts don't apply on London buses, only on
>>>>> rail services.
>>>>
>>>> People are also often confused by thinking of trams as part of the bus
>>>> system but like trains, bus passes do not include them out of area.
>>>
>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>
>> When the current Nottingham Tram system was introduced, it was priced as
>> if it was a bus, and included on all-day-bus-tickets.
>
>But I don't think it was ever included in English national bus passes?
>
>>
>> However, to finance Phase 2 it became a completely separate network.
>
>Yes, I see that an all-day tram ticket is £4.70, while £5.70 gets you an
>all-day tram, bus and train ticket, valid in the Greater Nottingham City
>area.
>
>https://www.thetram.net/tickets/one-off-tickets

Listed today as £3.77ea, I'd have bought a carnet of ten all-day bus
tickets (originally valid on the tram too).
--
Roland Perry