In message <ttdg25$2k792$5@dont-email.me>, at 17:21:10 on Sat, 25 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ttdcn2$2jrvb$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:24:02 on Sat, 25 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ttcm50$2hmas$7@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:56 on Sat, 25 Feb
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <tt8n65$1vob2$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:05 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <4hmevhlutof14o9unb73q8j2o2m7ik3qob@4ax.com>, at 12:27:46 on
>>>>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:28:31 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>>>>>> <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In message <nsgevhp2m7u6d74lesnc4b7c8ubaftuacs@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>>10:47:49 on
>>>>>>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>>>> 20:28:39 on Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott
>>>>>>>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or credit card.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount
>>>>>>>>>>>> that other payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising"
>>>>>>>>>>>>that CCC will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of
>>>>>>>>>>>>any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting
>>>>>>>>>>>>> terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you
>>>>>>>>>>>> used by the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for
>>>>>>>>>>>> example touching in at Vauxhall National Rail and out at
>>>>>>>>>>>> Waterloo National Rail can be separated from using the
>>>>>>>>>>>>Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate
>>>>>>>>>>>> gates, I don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are
>>>>>>>>>>>> fewer of those than we think.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the
>>>>>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the
>>>>>>>>>>> journey). My point was - assuming the bus journeys count
>>>>>>>>>>>towards the cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if
>>>>>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't necessarily
>>>>>>>>the same
>>>>>>>> as the National Rail fare between A and B (via perhaps D). So the fare
>>>>>>>> you are discounting by a third won't be the same. But at least it'd be
>>>>>>>> clear which of the two to discount.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking to
>>>>>>>>one mode
>>>>>>>> all the way, the undiscounted fare is difficult to know especially when
>>>>>>>> the system can't tell where you made the modal change (in the
>>>>>>>> circumstances there are no barriers to go through where you change
>>>>>>>> modes).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations like
>>>>>>>Farringdon
>>>>>>> and Stratford.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But not, as we've discussed before, at SPILL.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please remind me — why would they be needed?
>>>>>
>>>>>> There may be other
>>>>>> locations not provisioned as well. Wimbledon probably has them (hence
>>>>>> the complicated, and confusing for some visitors, rules about touching
>>>>>> in/out/sideways when changing there. Does Stratford have them for the
>>>>>> cross-platform changes with the Central Line (I haven't been to look at
>>>>>> that specific aspect).
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure, but why would they be needed? LE and LU are treated as one.
>>>>
>>>> Completing a journey ('tapping out') that you started with Oyster [or
>>>> CCC], and changing onto a train bound for somewhere outside the Oyster
>>>> or CCC area, hence needing independent ticketing.
>>>
>>> EL trains don't go outside the cc card area. So, any cross-platform
>>> interchanges at Stratford are between trains running in the ccc area.
>>
>> But you can later change to a train that does go outside the area (or
>> are there relevant validators at Shenfield, Ealing Broadway etc?
>
>https://oysterfares.com/payg-comes-to-marlow-ealing-broadway-changes/

In message <ttdcte$2jsla$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:27:26 on Sat, 25 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ttcm4v$2hmas$6@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:55 on Sat, 25 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tt8lst$1vjde$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:30:05 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <2nnevhpvn21642069bmvpef37r5adtu8nj@4ax.com>, at 12:43:35 on
>>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:21:09 +0000, Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 11:44, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All Tube trips are included.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The first part certainly implies that some or all Tube trips are
>>>>>>>> included, but how does that reconcile with "Railcard discounts do
>>>>>>>> not apply to ... most London Underground ... tickets"? Genuine
>>>>>>>> question; I'm not trying to pick holes in anyone's argument.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The key word is *tickets*. Oyster card users don't have tickets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, I see, the relevant word being "fares".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cc card users also don't get the discount, as there isn't yet a way of
>>>>>>> registering a rail card to a cc card.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It might mean that rail tickets with a Maltese cross attract a
>>>>>>>> discount despite being valid on the Tube, but "London Underground
>>>>>>>> tickets" valid only on the Tube[1] do not, but other comments imply
>>>>>>>> that it is much more liberal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Registered Oyster users get the rail card discount, others don't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, only off-peak; so not Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and
>>>>>> from 1600 to 1900.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which is slightly more generous than a cardholder might have expected in
>>>>>> the morning, but will come as a disappointment for those traveling in
>>>>>> the evening peak.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why would they be disappointed? The railcard discount applies after 09:30
>>>>> M-F, and at any time on weekends and public holidays.
>>>>
>>>> Because as it says above: "not ... from 1600 to 1900".
>>>
>>> Where?
>>
>> Look seven or eight lines of text up. (Oh, and it's a quote from the TfL
>> website).
>
>You are confused. The railcard discount applies all day after 0930:
>
> - At any time on weekends and public holidays
> - After 09:30, Monday to Friday
>
>https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/national-railcard-discount

I suspect the contradiction arises from small-print overtaking the
curator of that fairly generic cut'n'pasted page.

Here's the TfL fares finder (I've used the 2023 tab, as March is
approaching, and the 2022 tab is the same except for slightly lower
fares):

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/Railcard-single-fare.jpg
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 20:00:57 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <v3kkvh1v8l0ettrtkm99ttn1hopcu9qe95@4ax.com>, at 18:17:42 on
>Sat, 25 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 10:49:25 +0000, Graeme Wall
>><rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On 25/02/2023 10:09, Scott wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:16:32 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <tt9tfh$25ttp$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:45:37 on Fri, 24 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
>>>>>>> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
>>>>>>> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible. It would be the
>>>>>>> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.
>>>>>
>>>>> I used to think that in event of Brexit, then "the UK would stay in the
>>>>> Single Market" for similar reasons. And look what happened.
>>>>
>>>> I interpreted 'taking back control' as departing from EU regulations
>>>> with the inevitable consequence of leaving the single market. This
>>>> was my biggest concern.
>>>
>>>We were assured at the time by one, then senior, politician that we
>>>would remain in the single market, it would be the easiest deal ever.
>>>
>>>The "Taking back control" nonsense originally was only about immigration.
>>
>>Not my recollection. I thought it was about getting rid of EU red
>>tape and making our own laws (which inevitably was going to put us in
>>conflict with the single market). .
>
>People have different recollections, because it wasn't a single issue
>vote. There were at least four major themes: anti-immigration, £350m for
>the NHS, wonky bananas, and opposing "ever greater federalism"; as well
>as stuff to do with a golden future making independent trade deals and
>getting to keep more of our own fish.

I agree entirely - and all depending on who was speaking at the time.

I have just heard the ERG chair on Sky News saying we need to
'expunge' EU law from Northern Ireland. Clearly his aversion goes far
beyond immigration.

On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 19:57:14 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <m7kkvhp6kk4f1n8pqffm90bap80hthn9d4@4ax.com>, at 18:20:29 on
>Sat, 25 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 16:10:12 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <bfnjvh5ec006arb9hga19p7q6apbkiqvt0@4ax.com>, at 10:09:36 on
>>>Sat, 25 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:16:32 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In message <tt9tfh$25ttp$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:45:37 on Fri, 24 Feb
>>>>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
>>>>>>> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
>>>>>>> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible. It would be the
>>>>>>> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.
>>>>>
>>>>>I used to think that in event of Brexit, then "the UK would stay in the
>>>>>Single Market" for similar reasons. And look what happened.
>>>>
>>>>I interpreted 'taking back control' as departing from EU regulations
>>>
>>>Not the whole lot, which would make it impossible for us to trade with
>>>the EU at all.
>>
>>No, not the whole lot. I said 'departing' meaning some changes. It
>>was clear (to me at least) that making changes would jeopardise our
>>ability to remain in the single market.
>
>Depends of which changes were going to be made.

True. But my concerns at the time are is now supported with the
benefit of hindsight.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ttdcte$2jsla$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:27:26 on Sat, 25 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ttcm4v$2hmas$6@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:55 on Sat, 25 Feb
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <tt8lst$1vjde$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:30:05 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <2nnevhpvn21642069bmvpef37r5adtu8nj@4ax.com>, at 12:43:35 on
>>>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:21:09 +0000, Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 11:44, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All Tube trips are included.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The first part certainly implies that some or all Tube trips are
>>>>>>>>> included, but how does that reconcile with "Railcard discounts do
>>>>>>>>> not apply to ... most London Underground ... tickets"? Genuine
>>>>>>>>> question; I'm not trying to pick holes in anyone's argument.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The key word is *tickets*. Oyster card users don't have tickets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh, I see, the relevant word being "fares".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cc card users also don't get the discount, as there isn't yet a way of
>>>>>>>> registering a rail card to a cc card.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It might mean that rail tickets with a Maltese cross attract a
>>>>>>>>> discount despite being valid on the Tube, but "London Underground
>>>>>>>>> tickets" valid only on the Tube[1] do not, but other comments imply
>>>>>>>>> that it is much more liberal.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Registered Oyster users get the rail card discount, others don't.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, only off-peak; so not Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and
>>>>>>> from 1600 to 1900.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which is slightly more generous than a cardholder might have expected in
>>>>>>> the morning, but will come as a disappointment for those traveling in
>>>>>>> the evening peak.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why would they be disappointed? The railcard discount applies after 09:30
>>>>>> M-F, and at any time on weekends and public holidays.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because as it says above: "not ... from 1600 to 1900".
>>>>
>>>> Where?
>>>
>>> Look seven or eight lines of text up. (Oh, and it's a quote from the TfL
>>> website).
>>
>> You are confused. The railcard discount applies all day after 0930:
>>
>> - At any time on weekends and public holidays
>> - After 09:30, Monday to Friday
>>
>> https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/national-railcard-discount
>
> I suspect the contradiction arises from small-print overtaking the
> curator of that fairly generic cut'n'pasted page.
>
> Here's the TfL fares finder (I've used the 2023 tab, as March is
> approaching, and the 2022 tab is the same except for slightly lower
> fares):
>
> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/Railcard-single-fare.jpg

And?

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ttdctf$2jsla$6@dont-email.me>, at 16:27:27 on Sat, 25 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ttcm4v$2hmas$5@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:55 on Sat, 25 Feb
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <tt8m86$1vkru$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:36:06 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <tt7jia$1s0hq$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:10 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <tt7grb$1rnju$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:47 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>>>> 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is linked
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount
>>>>>>>>>>>> that other
>>>>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign
>>>>>>>>>>>> to do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> is here a missing "only a few" here...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Turns out what's missing is "off peak"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>>>>>> simple: all rail fares
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Including all tube fares (see left hand/right hand, above)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Only off-peak.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, of course, just like rail fares in London and the southeast.
>>>>>> The rules
>>>>>> are the same for NR, LO, EL, LU and DLR trains.
>>>>>
>>>>> But you can still get a railcard discount on an evening[1] peak train
>>>>> that requires an Anytime ticket. What seems to be special about the
>>>>> Oyster scheme is that it excludes that combination.
>>>>
>>>> Does it? The Oyster railcard discount applies from 9:30 onwards.
>>>
>>> See adjacent subthread.
>>
>> Where I've corrected your confusion, again.
>
> And I've refuted, with actual evidence rather than arm-waving.

You've simply confirmed that you're confused. Again.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ttdg25$2k792$5@dont-email.me>, at 17:21:10 on Sat, 25 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ttdcn2$2jrvb$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:24:02 on Sat, 25 Feb
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ttcm50$2hmas$7@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:56 on Sat, 25 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <tt8n65$1vob2$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:05 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <4hmevhlutof14o9unb73q8j2o2m7ik3qob@4ax.com>, at 12:27:46 on
>>>>>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:28:31 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>>>>>>> <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <nsgevhp2m7u6d74lesnc4b7c8ubaftuacs@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>>> 10:47:49 on
>>>>>>>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 20:28:39 on Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or credit card.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that other payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that CCC will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> used by the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> example touching in at Vauxhall National Rail and out at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Waterloo National Rail can be separated from using the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate
>>>>>>>>>>>>> gates, I don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fewer of those than we think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the
>>>>>>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the
>>>>>>>>>>>> journey). My point was - assuming the bus journeys count
>>>>>>>>>>>> towards the cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if
>>>>>>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't necessarily
>>>>>>>>> the same
>>>>>>>>> as the National Rail fare between A and B (via perhaps D). So the fare
>>>>>>>>> you are discounting by a third won't be the same. But at least it'd be
>>>>>>>>> clear which of the two to discount.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking to
>>>>>>>>> one mode
>>>>>>>>> all the way, the undiscounted fare is difficult to know especially when
>>>>>>>>> the system can't tell where you made the modal change (in the
>>>>>>>>> circumstances there are no barriers to go through where you change
>>>>>>>>> modes).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations like
>>>>>>>> Farringdon
>>>>>>>> and Stratford.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But not, as we've discussed before, at SPILL.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please remind me — why would they be needed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There may be other
>>>>>>> locations not provisioned as well. Wimbledon probably has them (hence
>>>>>>> the complicated, and confusing for some visitors, rules about touching
>>>>>>> in/out/sideways when changing there. Does Stratford have them for the
>>>>>>> cross-platform changes with the Central Line (I haven't been to look at
>>>>>>> that specific aspect).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure, but why would they be needed? LE and LU are treated as one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Completing a journey ('tapping out') that you started with Oyster [or
>>>>> CCC], and changing onto a train bound for somewhere outside the Oyster
>>>>> or CCC area, hence needing independent ticketing.
>>>>
>>>> EL trains don't go outside the cc card area. So, any cross-platform
>>>> interchanges at Stratford are between trains running in the ccc area.
>>>
>>> But you can later change to a train that does go outside the area (or
>>> are there relevant validators at Shenfield, Ealing Broadway etc?
>>
>> https://oysterfares.com/payg-comes-to-marlow-ealing-broadway-changes/
>
> And Shenfield? Also Romford, where one can change from the EL, to GA
> trains for Southend.
>

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 20:00:57 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <v3kkvh1v8l0ettrtkm99ttn1hopcu9qe95@4ax.com>, at 18:17:42 on
>> Sat, 25 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 10:49:25 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 25/02/2023 10:09, Scott wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:16:32 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <tt9tfh$25ttp$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:45:37 on Fri, 24 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
>>>>>>>> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
>>>>>>>> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible. It would be the
>>>>>>>> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I used to think that in event of Brexit, then "the UK would stay in the
>>>>>> Single Market" for similar reasons. And look what happened.
>>>>>
>>>>> I interpreted 'taking back control' as departing from EU regulations
>>>>> with the inevitable consequence of leaving the single market. This
>>>>> was my biggest concern.
>>>>
>>>> We were assured at the time by one, then senior, politician that we
>>>> would remain in the single market, it would be the easiest deal ever.
>>>>
>>>> The "Taking back control" nonsense originally was only about immigration.
>>>
>>> Not my recollection. I thought it was about getting rid of EU red
>>> tape and making our own laws (which inevitably was going to put us in
>>> conflict with the single market). .
>>
>> People have different recollections, because it wasn't a single issue
>> vote. There were at least four major themes: anti-immigration, £350m for
>> the NHS, wonky bananas, and opposing "ever greater federalism"; as well
>> as stuff to do with a golden future making independent trade deals and
>> getting to keep more of our own fish.
>
> I agree entirely - and all depending on who was speaking at the time.
>
> I have just heard the ERG chair on Sky News saying we need to
> 'expunge' EU law from Northern Ireland. Clearly his aversion goes far
> beyond immigration.
>

Yes, the ERG seems to have got steadily more hardline. As has been said of
them before, there's no point in trying to reach an agreement with them —
they swallow any concessions, and then just demand more.

Sunak was smart enough to appoint a couple of former ERG leading lights to
the ministerial team doing the NI negotiations, hoping that the ERG would
accept any final deal that their former leaders had negotiated, but they
still won't. So he's probably going to have to ride roughshod over them,
get the best deal he can (far better than the deal Boris got) and dare them
to try and bring him down.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 19:57:14 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <m7kkvhp6kk4f1n8pqffm90bap80hthn9d4@4ax.com>, at 18:20:29 on
>> Sat, 25 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 16:10:12 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <bfnjvh5ec006arb9hga19p7q6apbkiqvt0@4ax.com>, at 10:09:36 on
>>>> Sat, 25 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:16:32 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <tt9tfh$25ttp$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:45:37 on Fri, 24 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
>>>>>>>> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
>>>>>>>> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible. It would be the
>>>>>>>> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I used to think that in event of Brexit, then "the UK would stay in the
>>>>>> Single Market" for similar reasons. And look what happened.
>>>>>
>>>>> I interpreted 'taking back control' as departing from EU regulations
>>>>
>>>> Not the whole lot, which would make it impossible for us to trade with
>>>> the EU at all.
>>>
>>> No, not the whole lot. I said 'departing' meaning some changes. It
>>> was clear (to me at least) that making changes would jeopardise our
>>> ability to remain in the single market.
>>
>> Depends of which changes were going to be made.
>
> True. But my concerns at the time are is now supported with the
> benefit of hindsight.
>

There is a certain logic to their basic argument: there are benefits of
being a full EU member, and there are a different set of benefits from
being completely out of the EU, free to do anything we like. But there are
few benefits from being half-in and half-out, with little freedom or
influence. So, by that logic, if we're not fully in, we might as well be
fully out. The problem is that the benefits of being fully out seem very
limited, and slow to arrive. So, we're certainly losing by not being fully
in, but not gaining much in return.

On 25.02.23 17:05, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ttcm50$2hmas$7@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:56 on Sat, 25 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tt8n65$1vob2$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:05 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <4hmevhlutof14o9unb73q8j2o2m7ik3qob@4ax.com>, at
>>>>> 12:27:46 on
>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:28:31 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <nsgevhp2m7u6d74lesnc4b7c8ubaftuacs@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>> 10:47:49 on
>>>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>> 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London.  My Oyster card is
>>>>>>>>>> linked
>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit
>>>>>>>>>> or credit
>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount
>>>>>>>>> that other
>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising"
>>>>>>>>> that CCC
>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to
>>>>>>>>> do that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same
>>>>>>>>>> Oyster
>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting
>>>>>>>>>> terms  (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys
>>>>>>>>>> can include  Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>>>>>> it seems illogical to  offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you
>>>>>>>>> used by
>>>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example
>>>>>>>>> touching in
>>>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate
>>>>>>>>> gates, I
>>>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of
>>>>>>>>> those than
>>>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the
>>>>>>>> length of
>>>>>>>> journey).  My point was - assuming the bus journeys count
>>>>>>>> towards the
>>>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>>>>
>>>>> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't necessarily the
>>>>> same
>>>>> as the National Rail fare between A and B (via perhaps D). So the fare
>>>>> you are discounting by a third won't be the same. But at least it'd be
>>>>> clear which of the two to discount.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking to one
>>>>> mode
>>>>> all the way, the undiscounted fare is difficult to know especially
>>>>> when
>>>>> the system can't tell where you made the modal change (in the
>>>>> circumstances there are no barriers to go through where you change
>>>>> modes).
>>>>
>>>> Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations like
>>>> Farringdon
>>>> and Stratford.
>>>
>>> But not, as we've discussed before, at SPILL.
>>
>> Please remind me — why would they be needed?
>>
>>> There may be other
>>> locations not provisioned as well. Wimbledon probably has them (hence
>>> the complicated, and confusing for some visitors, rules about touching
>>> in/out/sideways when changing there. Does Stratford have them for the
>>> cross-platform changes with the Central Line (I haven't been to look at
>>> that specific aspect).
>>
>> I'm not sure, but why would they be needed?  LE and LU are treated as
>> one.
>
> Completing a journey ('tapping out') that you started with Oyster [or
> CCC], and changing onto a train bound for somewhere outside the Oyster
> or CCC area, hence needing independent ticketing.

For that use case, you'd want the validator to be at the first/last
(depeding on direction) station in the Oyster zones rather than at a
central location, so Dartford, Swanley, New Barnet, Elstree & Borhamwood
etc.

Robin

On 25/02/2023 20:00, Roland Perry wrote:

> People have different recollections, because it wasn't a single issue
> vote. There were at least four major themes: anti-immigration, £350m for
> the NHS, wonky bananas, and opposing "ever greater federalism"; as well
> as stuff to do with a golden future making independent trade deals and
> getting to keep more of our own fish.

And don't forget lexit - IMHO too many people treat lexit as a joke, but
"the EU is forcing privatisation of state industries" was a real thing.

--
Arthur Figgis

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 25.02.23 17:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ttcm50$2hmas$7@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:56 on Sat, 25 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tt8n65$1vob2$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:05 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <4hmevhlutof14o9unb73q8j2o2m7ik3qob@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>> 12:27:46 on
>>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:28:31 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <nsgevhp2m7u6d74lesnc4b7c8ubaftuacs@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>> 10:47:49 on
>>>>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>> 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London.  My Oyster card is
>>>>>>>>>>> linked
>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit
>>>>>>>>>>> or credit
>>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount
>>>>>>>>>> that other
>>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising"
>>>>>>>>>> that CCC
>>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to
>>>>>>>>>> do that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same
>>>>>>>>>>> Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting
>>>>>>>>>>> terms  (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys
>>>>>>>>>>> can include  Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>>>>>>> it seems illogical to  offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you
>>>>>>>>>> used by
>>>>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example
>>>>>>>>>> touching in
>>>>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate
>>>>>>>>>> gates, I
>>>>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of
>>>>>>>>>> those than
>>>>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the
>>>>>>>>> length of
>>>>>>>>> journey).  My point was - assuming the bus journeys count
>>>>>>>>> towards the
>>>>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't necessarily the
>>>>>> same
>>>>>> as the National Rail fare between A and B (via perhaps D). So the fare
>>>>>> you are discounting by a third won't be the same. But at least it'd be
>>>>>> clear which of the two to discount.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking to one
>>>>>> mode
>>>>>> all the way, the undiscounted fare is difficult to know especially
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> the system can't tell where you made the modal change (in the
>>>>>> circumstances there are no barriers to go through where you change
>>>>>> modes).
>>>>>
>>>>> Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations like
>>>>> Farringdon
>>>>> and Stratford.
>>>>
>>>> But not, as we've discussed before, at SPILL.
>>>
>>> Please remind me — why would they be needed?
>>>
>>>> There may be other
>>>> locations not provisioned as well. Wimbledon probably has them (hence
>>>> the complicated, and confusing for some visitors, rules about touching
>>>> in/out/sideways when changing there. Does Stratford have them for the
>>>> cross-platform changes with the Central Line (I haven't been to look at
>>>> that specific aspect).
>>>
>>> I'm not sure, but why would they be needed?  LE and LU are treated as
>>> one.
>>
>> Completing a journey ('tapping out') that you started with Oyster [or
>> CCC], and changing onto a train bound for somewhere outside the Oyster
>> or CCC area, hence needing independent ticketing.
>
> For that use case, you'd want the validator to be at the first/last
> (depeding on direction) station in the Oyster zones rather than at a
> central location, so Dartford, Swanley, New Barnet, Elstree & Borhamwood
> etc.
>

On 26/02/2023 09:14, Scott wrote:

> I have just heard the ERG chair on Sky News saying we need to
> 'expunge' EU law from Northern Ireland. Clearly his aversion goes far
> beyond immigration.

How long a game do they need to play before time and demographics mean
NI simply solves itself (or at least becomes someone else's problem)?

--
Arthur Figgis

On 26/02/2023 10:10, Recliner wrote:
> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 20:00:57 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <v3kkvh1v8l0ettrtkm99ttn1hopcu9qe95@4ax.com>, at 18:17:42 on
>>> Sat, 25 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 10:49:25 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 25/02/2023 10:09, Scott wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:16:32 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <tt9tfh$25ttp$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:45:37 on Fri, 24 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
>>>>>>>>> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
>>>>>>>>> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible. It would be the
>>>>>>>>> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I used to think that in event of Brexit, then "the UK would stay in the
>>>>>>> Single Market" for similar reasons. And look what happened.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I interpreted 'taking back control' as departing from EU regulations
>>>>>> with the inevitable consequence of leaving the single market. This
>>>>>> was my biggest concern.
>>>>>
>>>>> We were assured at the time by one, then senior, politician that we
>>>>> would remain in the single market, it would be the easiest deal ever.
>>>>>
>>>>> The "Taking back control" nonsense originally was only about immigration.
>>>>
>>>> Not my recollection. I thought it was about getting rid of EU red
>>>> tape and making our own laws (which inevitably was going to put us in
>>>> conflict with the single market). .
>>>
>>> People have different recollections, because it wasn't a single issue
>>> vote. There were at least four major themes: anti-immigration, £350m for
>>> the NHS, wonky bananas, and opposing "ever greater federalism"; as well
>>> as stuff to do with a golden future making independent trade deals and
>>> getting to keep more of our own fish.
>>
>> I agree entirely - and all depending on who was speaking at the time.
>>
>> I have just heard the ERG chair on Sky News saying we need to
>> 'expunge' EU law from Northern Ireland. Clearly his aversion goes far
>> beyond immigration.
>>
>
> Yes, the ERG seems to have got steadily more hardline. As has been said of
> them before, there's no point in trying to reach an agreement with them —
> they swallow any concessions, and then just demand more.
>
> Sunak was smart enough to appoint a couple of former ERG leading lights to
> the ministerial team doing the NI negotiations, hoping that the ERG would
> accept any final deal that their former leaders had negotiated, but they
> still won't. So he's probably going to have to ride roughshod over them,
> get the best deal he can (far better than the deal Boris got) and dare them
> to try and bring him down.
>

Unfortunately I don't think he has the political nerve to succede in
facing down both the ERG and the DUP and both groups are spiteful enough
to bring down the government if they don't get what they want.

At this stage does he care enough to even try. He could walk away now
into anyone of a number of highly paid jobs with the added bonus of
multi-million dollar speech engagements in prospect.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 24/02/2023 09:01, Bob wrote:

> This would be analogous to the situation of Sweden with respect to the
> Euro. Unlike Denmark and the UK which negotiated an explicit opt-out of
> Eurozone membership, Sweden committed to joining. In a reverse-Greece,
> they manipulate their government finance figures, so that they never
> quite manage to meet the criterea for membership of the Eurozone,
> though. They are, of course, totally committed to the idea of joining
> the Euro zone, and of course the EU would never admit a country to the
> Euro that doesn't meet the criterea, so they remain with the SEK, and
> life goes on.

I've seen it reported the the Czech Republic (and Poland?) have met the
criteria to join the euro, but for domestic political reasons didn't get
round to filling in the forms to do so, and the European Commission
basically looked the other way as there are bigger issues to worry about
at the moment.

--
Arthur Figgis

On 26/02/2023 11:16, Arthur Figgis wrote:
> On 25/02/2023 20:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> People have different recollections, because it wasn't a single issue
>> vote. There were at least four major themes: anti-immigration, £350m
>> for the NHS, wonky bananas, and opposing "ever greater federalism"; as
>> well as stuff to do with a golden future making independent trade
>> deals and getting to keep more of our own fish.
>
> And don't forget lexit - IMHO too many people treat lexit as a joke, but
> "the EU is forcing privatisation of state industries" was a real thing.
>

It was a useful cover for the Thatcherite dismemberment of this
country's social and socially useful services.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 26/02/2023 11:18, Arthur Figgis wrote:
> On 26/02/2023 09:14, Scott wrote:
>
>> I have just heard the ERG chair on Sky News saying we need to
>> 'expunge' EU law from Northern Ireland.  Clearly his aversion goes far
>> beyond immigration.
>
> How long a game do they need to play before time and demographics mean
> NI simply solves itself (or at least becomes someone else's problem)?
>

About 20 years for demographics to solve the problem, about 18 months,
possibly a lot less, for it to become SOP.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <do8mvhh54hn9ru757djb6emqqilgnuka8i@4ax.com>, at 09:17:08 on
Sun, 26 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 19:57:14 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <m7kkvhp6kk4f1n8pqffm90bap80hthn9d4@4ax.com>, at 18:20:29 on
>>Sat, 25 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 16:10:12 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <bfnjvh5ec006arb9hga19p7q6apbkiqvt0@4ax.com>, at 10:09:36 on
>>>>Sat, 25 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:16:32 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>In message <tt9tfh$25ttp$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:45:37 on Fri, 24 Feb
>>>>>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
>>>>>>>> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
>>>>>>>> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible. It would be the
>>>>>>>> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I used to think that in event of Brexit, then "the UK would stay in the
>>>>>>Single Market" for similar reasons. And look what happened.
>>>>>
>>>>>I interpreted 'taking back control' as departing from EU regulations
>>>>
>>>>Not the whole lot, which would make it impossible for us to trade with
>>>>the EU at all.
>>>
>>>No, not the whole lot. I said 'departing' meaning some changes. It
>>>was clear (to me at least) that making changes would jeopardise our
>>>ability to remain in the single market.
>>
>>Depends of which changes were going to be made.
>
>True. But my concerns at the time are is now supported with the
>benefit of hindsight.

Do you mean others now agree with the concerns you had at the time, now
*they* have the benefit of hindsight?

Here's a note I made soon after the referendum:

"[They won because] they harnessed people's grievances, but without
properly explaining how satisfactory remedies could be delivered".

I think there's an acknowledged trend amongst the population at large to
exhibit "buyers remorse", although It's taken longer than I expected
(probably because the changes are still working through the system). I
always thought it was a reason why Theresa May called her snap election,
because had they waited until 2020, things would have been looking grim.

Not only is NI still looking for a permanent solution, but according to
farmers the import controls at Dover until now have been the opposite of
"taking back control" - it's been a free for all. They say it's only a
matter of time before we get the next horsemeat (or similar) scandal.

Imposing some sort of "control" (which presumably we *will* get around
to eventually) will only serve to increase the food shortage, as well as
putting up prices and costing the public purse to implement the
bureaucracy.

ObPanicBuy: A family friend in London today says their Tesco delivery
order was minus the toilet rolls, annotated "no substitute available".

Pasta, on the other hand, has merely doubled in price.
--
Roland Perry

On 26/02/2023 11:30, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <do8mvhh54hn9ru757djb6emqqilgnuka8i@4ax.com>, at 09:17:08 on
> Sun, 26 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>> On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 19:57:14 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <m7kkvhp6kk4f1n8pqffm90bap80hthn9d4@4ax.com>, at 18:20:29 on
>>> Sat, 25 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 16:10:12 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <bfnjvh5ec006arb9hga19p7q6apbkiqvt0@4ax.com>, at
>>>>> 10:09:36 on
>>>>> Sat, 25 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:16:32 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <tt9tfh$25ttp$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:45:37 on Fri, 24
>>>>>>> Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area
>>>>>>>>> arrangements
>>>>>>>>> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
>>>>>>>>> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible.  It would
>>>>>>>>> be the
>>>>>>>>> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I used to think that in event of Brexit, then "the UK would stay
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>> Single Market" for similar reasons. And look what happened.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I interpreted 'taking back control' as departing from EU regulations
>>>>>
>>>>> Not the whole lot, which would make it impossible for us to trade with
>>>>> the EU at all.
>>>>
>>>> No, not the whole lot.  I said 'departing' meaning some changes.  It
>>>> was clear (to me at least) that making changes would jeopardise our
>>>> ability to remain in the single market.
>>>
>>> Depends of which changes were going to be made.
>>
>> True.  But my concerns at the time are is now supported with the
>> benefit of hindsight.
>
> Do you mean others now agree with the concerns you had at the time, now
> *they* have the benefit of hindsight?
>
> Here's a note I made soon after the referendum:
>
> "[They won because] they harnessed people's grievances, but without
>  properly explaining how satisfactory remedies could be delivered".
>
> I think there's an acknowledged trend amongst the population at large to
> exhibit "buyers remorse", although It's taken longer than I expected
> (probably because the changes are still working through the system). I
> always thought it was a reason why Theresa May called her snap election,
> because had they waited until 2020, things would have been looking grim.
>
> Not only is NI still looking for a permanent solution, but according to
> farmers the import controls at Dover until now have been the opposite of
> "taking back control" - it's been a free for all. They say it's only a
> matter of time before we get the next horsemeat (or similar) scandal.
>
> Imposing some sort of "control" (which presumably we *will* get around
> to eventually) will only serve to increase the food shortage, as well as
> putting up prices and costing the public purse to implement the
> bureaucracy.
>
The late unlamented Minister for Brexit Opportunities (sic) declined to
enforce Taking Back Control, on the grounds it would cost too much.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <ttffdh$2teka$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:22:25 on Sun, 26 Feb
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 26/02/2023 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 20:00:57 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <v3kkvh1v8l0ettrtkm99ttn1hopcu9qe95@4ax.com>, at 18:17:42 on
>>>> Sat, 25 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 10:49:25 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 25/02/2023 10:09, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:16:32 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <tt9tfh$25ttp$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:45:37 on Fri, 24 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
>>>>>>>>>> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
>>>>>>>>>> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible. It
>>>>>>>>>>would be the
>>>>>>>>>> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I used to think that in event of Brexit, then "the UK would stay in the
>>>>>>>> Single Market" for similar reasons. And look what happened.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I interpreted 'taking back control' as departing from EU regulations
>>>>>>> with the inevitable consequence of leaving the single market. This
>>>>>>> was my biggest concern.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We were assured at the time by one, then senior, politician that we
>>>>>> would remain in the single market, it would be the easiest deal ever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The "Taking back control" nonsense originally was only about immigration.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not my recollection. I thought it was about getting rid of EU red
>>>>> tape and making our own laws (which inevitably was going to put us in
>>>>> conflict with the single market). .
>>>>
>>>> People have different recollections, because it wasn't a single issue
>>>> vote. There were at least four major themes: anti-immigration, £350m for
>>>> the NHS, wonky bananas, and opposing "ever greater federalism"; as well
>>>> as stuff to do with a golden future making independent trade deals and
>>>> getting to keep more of our own fish.
>>>
>>> I agree entirely - and all depending on who was speaking at the time.
>>>
>>> I have just heard the ERG chair on Sky News saying we need to
>>> 'expunge' EU law from Northern Ireland. Clearly his aversion goes far
>>> beyond immigration.
>>>
>> Yes, the ERG seems to have got steadily more hardline. As has been
>>said of
>> them before, there's no point in trying to reach an agreement with them —
>> they swallow any concessions, and then just demand more.
>> Sunak was smart enough to appoint a couple of former ERG leading
>>lights to
>> the ministerial team doing the NI negotiations, hoping that the ERG would
>> accept any final deal that their former leaders had negotiated, but they
>> still won't. So he's probably going to have to ride roughshod over them,
>> get the best deal he can (far better than the deal Boris got) and dare them
>> to try and bring him down.
>
>Unfortunately I don't think he has the political nerve to succede in
>facing down both the ERG and the DUP and both groups are spiteful
>enough to bring down the government if they don't get what they want.
>
>At this stage does he care enough to even try. He could walk away now
>into anyone of a number of highly paid jobs with the added bonus of
>multi-million dollar speech engagements in prospect.

He doesn't actually need any conventional income, he's quite
spectacularly independently wealthy. Which in the current kind of
circumstance is probably a good thing, because he'll keep his nerve.
--
Roland Perry

In message <88CcnXQ9QpMVomb-nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
11:16:24 on Sun, 26 Feb 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
remarked:
>On 25/02/2023 20:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> People have different recollections, because it wasn't a single issue
>>vote. There were at least four major themes: anti-immigration, £350m
>>for the NHS, wonky bananas, and opposing "ever greater federalism";
>>as well as stuff to do with a golden future making independent trade
>>deals and getting to keep more of our own fish.
>
>And don't forget lexit - IMHO too many people treat lexit as a joke,
>but "the EU is forcing privatisation of state industries" was a real
>thing.

Of all the dozens of disparate reasons (including "it means we'll
be allowed to ban the export of live animals", and "Tampon Tax")
I haven't heard that particular one before.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ttfak0$2svo9$7@dont-email.me>, at 10:00:32 on Sun, 26 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>>>>>>>>>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't
>>>>>>>>>>necessarily the same as the National Rail fare between A and
>>>>>>>>>>B (via perhaps D). So the fare you are discounting by a third
>>>>>>>>>>won't be the same. But at least it'd be clear which of the two to discount.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking
>>>>>>>>>> one mode all the way, the undiscounted fare is difficult to
>>>>>>>>>>know especially when the system can't tell where you made the
>>>>>>>>>>modal change (in the circumstances there are no barriers to
>>>>>>>>>> modes).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations like
>>>>>>>>> Farringdon
>>>>>>>>> and Stratford.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But not, as we've discussed before, at SPILL.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please remind me — why would they be needed?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There may be other
>>>>>>>> locations not provisioned as well. Wimbledon probably has them (hence
>>>>>>>> the complicated, and confusing for some visitors, rules about touching
>>>>>>>> in/out/sideways when changing there. Does Stratford have them for the
>>>>>>>> cross-platform changes with the Central Line (I haven't been to look at
>>>>>>>> that specific aspect).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not sure, but why would they be needed? LE and LU are
>>>>>>>treated as one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Completing a journey ('tapping out') that you started with Oyster [or
>>>>>> CCC], and changing onto a train bound for somewhere outside the Oyster
>>>>>> or CCC area, hence needing independent ticketing.
>>>>>
>>>>> EL trains don't go outside the cc card area. So, any cross-platform
>>>>> interchanges at Stratford are between trains running in the ccc area.
>>>>
>>>> But you can later change to a train that does go outside the area (or
>>>> are there relevant validators at Shenfield, Ealing Broadway etc?
>>>
>>> https://oysterfares.com/payg-comes-to-marlow-ealing-broadway-changes/
>>
>> And Shenfield? Also Romford, where one can change from the EL, to GA
>> trains for Southend.
>
>There's nothing new about that.

It doesn't matter if it's new, but that it's broken.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ttfajq$2svo9$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:00:26 on Sun, 26 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ttdcte$2jsla$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:27:26 on Sat, 25 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ttcm4v$2hmas$6@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:55 on Sat, 25 Feb
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <tt8lst$1vjde$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:30:05 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <2nnevhpvn21642069bmvpef37r5adtu8nj@4ax.com>, at 12:43:35 on
>>>>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:21:09 +0000, Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 11:44, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> All Tube trips are included.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The first part certainly implies that some or all Tube trips are
>>>>>>>>>> included, but how does that reconcile with "Railcard discounts do
>>>>>>>>>> not apply to ... most London Underground ... tickets"? Genuine
>>>>>>>>>> question; I'm not trying to pick holes in anyone's argument.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The key word is *tickets*. Oyster card users don't have tickets.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oh, I see, the relevant word being "fares".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cc card users also don't get the discount, as there isn't yet a way of
>>>>>>>>> registering a rail card to a cc card.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It might mean that rail tickets with a Maltese cross attract a
>>>>>>>>>> discount despite being valid on the Tube, but "London Underground
>>>>>>>>>> tickets" valid only on the Tube[1] do not, but other comments imply
>>>>>>>>>> that it is much more liberal.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Registered Oyster users get the rail card discount, others don't.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, only off-peak; so not Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and
>>>>>>>> from 1600 to 1900.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which is slightly more generous than a cardholder might have
>>>>>>>>expected in
>>>>>>>> the morning, but will come as a disappointment for those traveling in
>>>>>>>> the evening peak.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why would they be disappointed? The railcard discount applies
>>>>>>>after 09:30
>>>>>>> M-F, and at any time on weekends and public holidays.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because as it says above: "not ... from 1600 to 1900".
>>>>>
>>>>> Where?
>>>>
>>>> Look seven or eight lines of text up. (Oh, and it's a quote from the TfL
>>>> website).
>>>
>>> You are confused. The railcard discount applies all day after 0930:
>>>
>>> - At any time on weekends and public holidays
>>> - After 09:30, Monday to Friday
>>>
>>>
>>>https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/national-railcard-
>>>discount
>>
>> I suspect the contradiction arises from small-print overtaking the
>> curator of that fairly generic cut'n'pasted page.
>>
>> Here's the TfL fares finder (I've used the 2023 tab, as March is
>> approaching, and the 2022 tab is the same except for slightly lower
>> fares):
>>
>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/Railcard-single-fare.jpg
>
>And?

It says (this is getting tedious) the railcard discount is off-peak
only, and doesn't include the evening peak.

Or are you seriously saying that the other site is pedantically
correct in saying "after 9.30", while nevertheless omitting the
"but not between 1600 to 1900"?
--
Roland Perry

In message <ttfak0$2svo9$6@dont-email.me>, at 10:00:32 on Sun, 26 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> See adjacent subthread.
>>>
>>> Where I've corrected your confusion, again.
>>
>> And I've refuted, with actual evidence rather than arm-waving.
>
>You've simply confirmed that you're confused. Again.

More arm-waving. Please be specific in your response.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ttfdj6$2t6qr$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:51:16 on Sun, 26 Feb
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:

>>>>>>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't necessarily
>>>>>>the same as the National Rail fare between A and B (via perhaps
>>>>>>D). So the fare you are discounting by a third won't be the same.
>>>>>>But at least it'd be clear which of the two to discount.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking to
>>>>>>one mode all the way, the undiscounted fare is difficult to know
>>>>>>especially when the system can't tell where you made the modal
>>>>>> circumstances there are no barriers to go through where you
>>>>>>change modes).
>>>>>
>>>>> Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations like
>>>>>Farringdon and Stratford.
>>>>
>>>> But not, as we've discussed before, at SPILL.
>>>
>>> Please remind me — why would they be needed?
>>>
>>>> There may be other
>>>> locations not provisioned as well. Wimbledon probably has them (hence
>>>> the complicated, and confusing for some visitors, rules about touching
>>>> in/out/sideways when changing there. Does Stratford have them for the
>>>> cross-platform changes with the Central Line (I haven't been to look at
>>>> that specific aspect).
>>>
>>> I'm not sure, but why would they be needed?  LE and LU are treated
>>>as one.

>> Completing a journey ('tapping out') that you started with Oyster
>>[or CCC], and changing onto a train bound for somewhere outside the
>>Oyster or CCC area, hence needing independent ticketing.
>
>For that use case, you'd want the validator to be at the first/last
>(depeding on direction) station in the Oyster zones rather than at a
>central location, so Dartford, Swanley, New Barnet, Elstree &
>Borhamwood etc.

No, you need it wherever people actually physically change trains.

Useless to have a validator at New Barnet if passengers can only reach
it by hanging out of the windows of a passing train.
--
Roland Perry