Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>
> This was becoming my understanding. You could spend all morning on the
> buses in Zone 6 then move (somehow) to Zone 2 and spend the afternoon
> on the tubes and only pay the Z1-2 cap. I suppose this is the
> inevitable consequence of buses being non-zonal.

You can do better than that. For example, you can use a combination of two
(142 and 113) red London buses to get from Watford Junction (outside the
zones) to Finchley Road (Z2). You'd only pay £1.65, which would count
towards a Z1-2 cap. So, maybe start from Watford at 7:30, take the two
buses, get to Finchley Rd just after 9:30, use Tubes, trains, the DLR and
buses all day, then return home the same way. You'd only pay the Z1-2 cap,
less any railcard discounts (so, probably around £7).

Zone 2 gets you to Hammersmith, Stratford, Canary Wharf, Greenwich, Putney,
Lewisham, etc.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:36:06 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tt7jia$1s0hq$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:10 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <tt7grb$1rnju$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:47 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on
>>>>>
>>>>> is here a missing "only a few" here...
>>>>
>>>> No
>>>
>>> Turns out what's missing is "off peak"
>>>
>>>>>>>> Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>> simple: all rail fares
>>>>>
>>>>> Including all tube fares (see left hand/right hand, above)?
>>>>
>>>> Yes
>>>
>>> Only off-peak.
>>
>> Yes, of course, just like rail fares in London and the southeast. The rules
>> are the same for NR, LO, EL, LU and DLR trains.
>>
> Not on LO; peak travel on the DC line on weekdays is when you are
> travelling against the peak flow.

Does that also affect LNR trains on the same route?

> ICBA to check the whole of Greater
> London but there were also various routes with no evening peak.
>

On 23/02/2023 22:42, MB wrote:
> On 23/02/2023 18:46, Scott wrote:
>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>> apply - arguably 😄
>
> You cannot REjoin something that you have not previously been a member.

....nor something that would not accept you as a member.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:32:41 +0000, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 20:39:22 +0000, Charles Ellson
><charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 18:53:38 +0000, Scott
>><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 16:13:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 15:43:45 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 14:11:59 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:50:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:13:02 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:49:07 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:37:18 +0000, Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:22:04 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:57:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting terms
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems illogical to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> journey).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, a second bus journey within an hour is free. I think that's true
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even if you make a rail journey in between the two bus journeys.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As is any journey once the cap is reached. The question is whether
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bus operator gets any part of the fare or are they paid a contract
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rate to run the service irrespective of the number of passengers? I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought there might be an incentive payment, but I genuinely don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think London bus operators are just paid a fee to run the service.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The fare revenues certainly don't affect their fees
>>>>>>>>>>>> (remember that, for one reason or another, most passengers aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>> paying bus fares). The numbers of passengers are
>>>>>>>>>>>> counted, but I'm not sure if it affects the fees they receive. They
>>>>>>>>>>>> are probably rewarded/penalised based on quality
>>>>>>>>>>>> factors, like cancelled buses, poor maintenance, punctuality,
>>>>>>>>>>>> passenger complaint rates, cleanliness, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is probably right. Like SQUIRE on ScotRail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simple: all rail fares have the discount applied before being added to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> running total. If/when that reaches the cap, all subsequent journeys by all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> modes are free (in the same zones, of course).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This would mean using a reduced cap. Surely this would then create
>>>>>>>>>>>>> confusion if a bus journey were to be interspersed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> They contribute to the cap.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But which cap? If I reach the rail cap then get on a bus, does the
>>>>>>>>>>> ticket machine on the bus then calculate the composite cap for the
>>>>>>>>>>> relevant mix of bus and rail fares before deciding how much to charge?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There isn't a rail cap. There's a bus cap and an all-modes cap.
>>>>>>>>>> Currently (for a few more days!), the all-modes cap in
>>>>>>>>>> Z1-2 is £7.70 and the bus cap (all zones) is £4.95.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Previous discussion suggests there is a de facto rail cap of
>>>>>>>>> two-thirds of the full cap for Oyster cards linked with Railcards
>>>>>>>>> (£5.13 in your example).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here's an example of how I think it should work:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Journey Std fare Cumulative Actual fare charged after cap and discount
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bus £1.65 £1.65 £1.65
>>>>>>>> Train Z2-1 £2.60 £4.25 £1.73
>>>>>>>> Bus (<60 min) £0.00 £4.25 £0.00
>>>>>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £6.75 £1.67
>>>>>>>> Tube Z1 £2.50 £9.25 £0.95
>>>>>>>> Train Z1-2 £2.60 £11.85 £0.00
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, the total fares paid would be £6, or a discount of 22% in this case.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What would happen if you went above the cap? Supposing you ran up £26
>>>>>>> of tube fares, all subject to one third off [£17.33]. Would you then
>>>>>>> pay the same capped amount (£7.70) as someone with no Railcard?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, as I illustrated, fares are zero once you hit the undiscounted cap. So
>>>>>> any further use in those zones that day would be free.
>>>>>
>>>>> So in my example it would be £7.70 with or without the Senior
>>>>> Railcard? I am starting to understand this.
>>>>
>>>>No, as I showed, the railcard reduces the cap, to £6 in this case. I think
>>>>it will be between £5.13 and £7.70, depending on the rail/bus mix before
>>>>you hit the cap.
>>>
>>>So they stop counting when the full fare reaches the cap, then apply
>>>the discount next? Am I getting there.>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I didn't know about the bus cap. I assume this is for buses only.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It applies if you only use buses in the period in question. Note that
>>>>>>>> bus fares aren't zoned, so this cap applies to all
>>>>>>>> London buses.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is the bus cap forfeited if you travel on the tube at any time during
>>>>>>> the day? Suppose you travel on lots of buses and one tube, would you
>>>>>>> pay £4.95 + £2.50 = £7.45 or £7.70 (price cap)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's supposed to pick the cheaper one automatically.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Would it be the Z1-2 price cap or all the zones where the buses went?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bus routes aren't zoned.
>>>>>>
>>>>> But they could form a part of an all-modes cap.
>>>>
>>>>Yes, of course.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you make a long bus journey into Zone 2 then use the tube, would
>>>>> you benefit from the Z1-2 price cap even though your journey started
>>>>> in Zone 6? In effect, is the bus treated as a part of the Zone that
>>>>> is most beneficial to the capping?
>>>>
>>>>Buses are zoneless. The zone caps are determined by the rail stations you
>>>>accessed. So use of buses never increases the number of zones you're
>>>>charged for. So, you could commute from Z4 to Z2 by bus, then use any mix
>>>>of transport modes all day in Z1-2, then catch the bus home from Z2, and
>>>>will be charged a Z1-2 cap.
>>>
>>>With no need for the bus even to enter Zone 2?
>>>
>>There is no "Zone 2" for a bus. The entire Oyster service area is a
>>single zone for buses. One single cap (for each relevant period)
>>applies for trams and buses.
>>Once you use a train then you move on to the higher "all services"
>>daily and/or weekly caps.
>
>This was becoming my understanding. You could spend all morning on the
>buses in Zone 6 then move (somehow) to Zone 2 and spend the afternoon
>on the tubes and only pay the Z1-2 cap. I suppose this is the
>inevitable consequence of buses being non-zonal.
>>
>>Putting it another way you have two travel contexts to consider :-
>>1. Bus and tram only.
>>2. Railway (with/without bus or tram).
>>
>>The calculation of the cap for No.2 ignores any journeys in No.1.
>
>I'm sure someone else said the caps are:
>1. Bus and tram only
>2. All-modes
>and No 2 includes journeys in No 1.
>
Yes, it counts the fares for the whole day but there is no peak for
buses. Looking back at my ancient Oyster statements (I have only had
two chargeable journeys in the last 8 years), using a bus in the
morning peak does not seem to have increased the daily cap thus bus
journeys counted toward the total daily cost but not toward the count
of peak journeys.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:55:39 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:26:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>>
>>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>>> to the south.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>>> islands.
>>>
>> The CTA applies to people but not to goods; pre-EU there were customs
>> posts on many border crossings in Ireland.
>>
>
>Schengen also applies to people but not to goods.
>
But is not to be equated with the CTA.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 22:42:21 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 23/02/2023 18:46, Scott wrote:
>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>> apply - arguably ?
>
>
>
>You cannot REjoin something that you have not previously been a member.
>
Did England join by itself ?

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 22:59:39 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:36:06 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tt7jia$1s0hq$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:10 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <tt7grb$1rnju$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:47 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on
>>>>>>
>>>>>> is here a missing "only a few" here...
>>>>>
>>>>> No
>>>>
>>>> Turns out what's missing is "off peak"
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>>> simple: all rail fares
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Including all tube fares (see left hand/right hand, above)?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes
>>>>
>>>> Only off-peak.
>>>
>>> Yes, of course, just like rail fares in London and the southeast. The rules
>>> are the same for NR, LO, EL, LU and DLR trains.
>>>
>> Not on LO; peak travel on the DC line on weekdays is when you are
>> travelling against the peak flow.
>
>Does that also affect LNR trains on the same route?
>
If you go into London from Harrow during the evening peak, yes
according to the NR journey planner.

>> ICBA to check the whole of Greater
>> London but there were also various routes with no evening peak.
>>
>

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 22:59:39 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:36:06 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <tt7jia$1s0hq$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:10 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <tt7grb$1rnju$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:47 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> is here a missing "only a few" here...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No
>>>>>
>>>>> Turns out what's missing is "off peak"
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line
>>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>>>> simple: all rail fares
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Including all tube fares (see left hand/right hand, above)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>
>>>>> Only off-peak.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, of course, just like rail fares in London and the southeast. The rules
>>>> are the same for NR, LO, EL, LU and DLR trains.
>>>>
>>> Not on LO; peak travel on the DC line on weekdays is when you are
>>> travelling against the peak flow.
>>
>> Does that also affect LNR trains on the same route?
>>
> If you go into London from Harrow during the evening peak, yes
> according to the NR journey planner.

So, LO is treated the same as NR, even on that route. And it would have to
be, as both services use the same gatelines at both ends.

On 23/02/2023 23:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:55:39 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:26:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>>>> to the south.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>>>> islands.
>>>>
>>> The CTA applies to people but not to goods; pre-EU there were customs
>>> posts on many border crossings in Ireland.
>>>
>>
>> Schengen also applies to people but not to goods.
>>
> But is not to be equated with the CTA.

We'd end up with a problem like that we now face in Ireland. We must
allow movement between England and Scotland, and between Scotland and
France, whilst preventing movement between England and France.

Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
> On 23/02/2023 23:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:55:39 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:26:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>>>>> to the south.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>>>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>>>>> islands.
>>>>>
>>>> The CTA applies to people but not to goods; pre-EU there were customs
>>>> posts on many border crossings in Ireland.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Schengen also applies to people but not to goods.
>>>
>> But is not to be equated with the CTA.
>
> We'd end up with a problem like that we now face in Ireland. We must
> allow movement between England and Scotland, and between Scotland and
> France, whilst preventing movement between England and France.
>

The problem is Ireland isn't to do with CTA and Schengen. That works well,
with no contradictions.

It's all about goods, which are supposed to flow freely from GB to NI, and
from NI to EI, but not from GB to EI. So there has to be some sort of
segregation of goods flowing freely from GB to NI from goods flowing with
customs checks from GB to EI via NI. Hence the proposals for green and red
lanes. Even more difficult is the issue of whether EU or GB standards
should be used in NI.

On 24/02/2023 00:33, Recliner wrote:
> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>> On 23/02/2023 23:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:55:39 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:26:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>>>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>>>>>> to the south.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>>>>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>>>>>> islands.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The CTA applies to people but not to goods; pre-EU there were customs
>>>>> posts on many border crossings in Ireland.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Schengen also applies to people but not to goods.
>>>>
>>> But is not to be equated with the CTA.
>>
>> We'd end up with a problem like that we now face in Ireland. We must
>> allow movement between England and Scotland, and between Scotland and
>> France, whilst preventing movement between England and France.
>>
>
> The problem is Ireland isn't to do with CTA and Schengen. That works well,
> with no contradictions.
>
> It's all about goods, which are supposed to flow freely from GB to NI, and
> from NI to EI, but not from GB to EI. So there has to be some sort of
> segregation of goods flowing freely from GB to NI from goods flowing with
> customs checks from GB to EI via NI. Hence the proposals for green and red
> lanes. Even more difficult is the issue of whether EU or GB standards
> should be used in NI.

Yes: to clarify, people entering or leaving Scotland would end up with a
problem similar to that goods now face in Ireland. People don't face
that problem in Ireland unless (the Republic of) Ireland joins Schengen.

Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
> On 24/02/2023 00:33, Recliner wrote:
>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>> On 23/02/2023 23:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:55:39 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:26:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>>>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>>>>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>>>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>>>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>>>>>>> to the south.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>>>>>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>>>>>>> islands.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The CTA applies to people but not to goods; pre-EU there were customs
>>>>>> posts on many border crossings in Ireland.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Schengen also applies to people but not to goods.
>>>>>
>>>> But is not to be equated with the CTA.
>>>
>>> We'd end up with a problem like that we now face in Ireland. We must
>>> allow movement between England and Scotland, and between Scotland and
>>> France, whilst preventing movement between England and France.
>>>
>>
>> The problem is Ireland isn't to do with CTA and Schengen. That works well,
>> with no contradictions.
>>
>> It's all about goods, which are supposed to flow freely from GB to NI, and
>> from NI to EI, but not from GB to EI. So there has to be some sort of
>> segregation of goods flowing freely from GB to NI from goods flowing with
>> customs checks from GB to EI via NI. Hence the proposals for green and red
>> lanes. Even more difficult is the issue of whether EU or GB standards
>> should be used in NI.
>
> Yes: to clarify, people entering or leaving Scotland would end up with a
> problem similar to that goods now face in Ireland.

Scotland would certainly stay in the CTA, and not join Schengen. Absolutely
no-one would want a Schengen border on the island of Great Britain.

> People don't face
> that problem in Ireland unless (the Republic of) Ireland joins Schengen.

Why would it? The CTA works well for both the UK and EI and allows the
Good Friday Agreement to continue. Joining Schengen would break
international treaties, which nobody wants.

On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 00:08:28 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 22:59:39 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:36:06 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <tt7jia$1s0hq$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:10 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <tt7grb$1rnju$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:47 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> is here a missing "only a few" here...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Turns out what's missing is "off peak"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>>>>> simple: all rail fares
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Including all tube fares (see left hand/right hand, above)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only off-peak.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, of course, just like rail fares in London and the southeast. The rules
>>>>> are the same for NR, LO, EL, LU and DLR trains.
>>>>>
>>>> Not on LO; peak travel on the DC line on weekdays is when you are
>>>> travelling against the peak flow.
>>>
>>> Does that also affect LNR trains on the same route?
>>>
>> If you go into London from Harrow during the evening peak, yes
>> according to the NR journey planner.
>
>So, LO is treated the same as NR, even on that route. And it would have to
>be, as both services use the same gatelines at both ends.
>
More the other way round; if there is a fare on a parallel-ish route
that is cheaper then WMT and its predecessors tended to reduce theirs.
As for the gatelines, 60+/FP are not valid WFJ-HRW other than on LO
(unless the DC line is closed then WMT only becomes a diversionary
service) but getting gripped on the train is the only practical
prevention of their use.

The fares can get a bit strange in/out of Euston.

Milton Keynes to Euston
Avanti 15-40 16-40 rtn
WMT 15-70 16-60 rtn

Bletchley to Harrow (shorter than the above)
WMT 21-90 22-00 rtn

MKC to Harrow
WMT 21-80 22-90 rtn
with no restriction on stopping short on a MKC-EUS ticket.

Watford Junction to Harrow
WMT 6-30 cash 2-10 Oyster (no off-peak NR rtn fare)
LO 2-10

Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 23/02/2023 22:12, Recliner wrote:
>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 23/02/2023 21:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>>>> to the south.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>>>> islands.
>>>>
>>> I thought joining Schengen was compulsory when joining the EU now?
>>
>> No, not all EU members are in Schengen, and not all Schengen members are in
>> the EU, or have any intention of joining.
> That's historic. It's compulsory now.
>
Do you have a reference for this assertion?

On 24/02/2023 01:16, Recliner wrote:
> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>> On 24/02/2023 00:33, Recliner wrote:
>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>> On 23/02/2023 23:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:55:39 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:26:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>>>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>>>>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>>>>>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>>>>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>>>>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>>>>>>>> to the south.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>>>>>>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>>>>>>>> islands.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The CTA applies to people but not to goods; pre-EU there were customs
>>>>>>> posts on many border crossings in Ireland.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Schengen also applies to people but not to goods.
>>>>>>
>>>>> But is not to be equated with the CTA.
>>>>
>>>> We'd end up with a problem like that we now face in Ireland. We must
>>>> allow movement between England and Scotland, and between Scotland and
>>>> France, whilst preventing movement between England and France.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The problem is Ireland isn't to do with CTA and Schengen. That works well,
>>> with no contradictions.
>>>
>>> It's all about goods, which are supposed to flow freely from GB to NI, and
>>> from NI to EI, but not from GB to EI. So there has to be some sort of
>>> segregation of goods flowing freely from GB to NI from goods flowing with
>>> customs checks from GB to EI via NI. Hence the proposals for green and red
>>> lanes. Even more difficult is the issue of whether EU or GB standards
>>> should be used in NI.
>>
>> Yes: to clarify, people entering or leaving Scotland would end up with a
>> problem similar to that goods now face in Ireland.
>
> Scotland would certainly stay in the CTA, and not join Schengen. Absolutely
> no-one would want a Schengen border on the island of Great Britain.

Mogg and his ERG friends would.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 24.02.23 02:16, Recliner wrote:
> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>> On 24/02/2023 00:33, Recliner wrote:
>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>> On 23/02/2023 23:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:55:39 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:26:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>>>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>>>>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>>>>>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>>>>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>>>>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>>>>>>>> to the south.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>>>>>>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>>>>>>>> islands.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The CTA applies to people but not to goods; pre-EU there were customs
>>>>>>> posts on many border crossings in Ireland.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Schengen also applies to people but not to goods.
>>>>>>
>>>>> But is not to be equated with the CTA.
>>>>
>>>> We'd end up with a problem like that we now face in Ireland. We must
>>>> allow movement between England and Scotland, and between Scotland and
>>>> France, whilst preventing movement between England and France.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The problem is Ireland isn't to do with CTA and Schengen. That works well,
>>> with no contradictions.
>>>
>>> It's all about goods, which are supposed to flow freely from GB to NI, and
>>> from NI to EI, but not from GB to EI. So there has to be some sort of
>>> segregation of goods flowing freely from GB to NI from goods flowing with
>>> customs checks from GB to EI via NI. Hence the proposals for green and red
>>> lanes. Even more difficult is the issue of whether EU or GB standards
>>> should be used in NI.
>>
>> Yes: to clarify, people entering or leaving Scotland would end up with a
>> problem similar to that goods now face in Ireland.
>
> Scotland would certainly stay in the CTA, and not join Schengen. Absolutely
> no-one would want a Schengen border on the island of Great Britain.
>
>> People don't face
>> that problem in Ireland unless (the Republic of) Ireland joins Schengen.
>
> Why would it? The CTA works well for both the UK and EI and allows the
> Good Friday Agreement to continue. Joining Schengen would break
> international treaties, which nobody wants.

Various elements of the Conservative party have been agitating to
violate international treaties for years by calling for the withdrawl
from the ECHR, which is a core part of the GFA.

Robin

On 23.02.23 23:12, Recliner wrote:
> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 23/02/2023 21:26, Recliner wrote:
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>>
>>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>>> to the south.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>>> islands.
>>>
>> I thought joining Schengen was compulsory when joining the EU now?
>
> No, not all EU members are in Schengen, and not all Schengen members are in
> the EU, or have any intention of joining.

I believe Ireland is the only EU member not committed to joining
Schengen. The other member states not in the zone are committed to
working to meet the requirements so that they can join. Most recently,
Croatia was added to the Schengen area.

>> How are we going to organise the border for those crossing it on the train.
>
> No different to the Dublin-Belfast trains.

UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible. It would be the
same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.

Robin

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 23.02.23 23:12, Recliner wrote:
>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 23/02/2023 21:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>>>> to the south.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>>>> islands.
>>>>
>>> I thought joining Schengen was compulsory when joining the EU now?
>>
>> No, not all EU members are in Schengen, and not all Schengen members are in
>> the EU, or have any intention of joining.
>
> I believe Ireland is the only EU member not committed to joining
> Schengen. The other member states not in the zone are committed to
> working to meet the requirements so that they can join. Most recently,
> Croatia was added to the Schengen area.

Which made sense for all concerned. It would not make sense for Scotland to
do so.

>
>>> How are we going to organise the border for those crossing it on the train.
>>
>> No different to the Dublin-Belfast trains.
>
> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible. It would be the
> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.

Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.

On 23.02.23 23:00, Coffee wrote:
> On 23/02/2023 21:26, Recliner wrote:
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus
>>>>>>> passes
>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced
>>>>>>> as buses,
>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to
>>>>>> use my
>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading
>>>>>> timetables
>>>>>> and T&C.  :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>
>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>
>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>> to the south.
>>>
>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>
>>
>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>> islands.
>>
> I thought joining Schengen was compulsory when joining the EU now?

Making a commitment to joinging the Schengen zone is a requirement, but
there is a world of difference between making a commitment and actually
doing it. A hypothetically independent Scotland could make a commitment
to join Schengen, but by maintaining an open border with England, fail
to meet the criterea for actually being added to the zone, and just
remain in a half-way state of being officially committed to joining but
never quite making it in.

This would be analogous to the situation of Sweden with respect to the
Euro. Unlike Denmark and the UK which negotiated an explicit opt-out of
Eurozone membership, Sweden committed to joining. In a reverse-Greece,
they manipulate their government finance figures, so that they never
quite manage to meet the criterea for membership of the Eurozone,
though. They are, of course, totally committed to the idea of joining
the Euro zone, and of course the EU would never admit a country to the
Euro that doesn't meet the criterea, so they remain with the SEK, and
life goes on.

> How are we going to organise the border for those crossing it on the train.

Trains have crossed international borders for a long time, and different
solutions have been implimented over time. What would happen in this
hypothetical scenario would depend on myriad factors that are unpredictable.

Robin

On 23/02/2023 22:12, Recliner wrote:
> No, not all EU members are in Schengen, and not all Schengen members are in
> the EU, or have any intention of joining.

They tend to be able to force things like those on new members as a
condition of membership and whatever the SNP say, they would not be
"rejoining" the EU as Scotland has never been a member state.

They think Economic and Monetary Union is just adopting the Euro but it
means handing over complete control of a country's finances to Brussels.

On 24/02/2023 09:02, MB wrote:
> On 23/02/2023 22:12, Recliner wrote:
>> No, not all EU members are in Schengen, and not all Schengen members
>> are in
>> the EU, or have any intention of joining.
>
>
> They tend to be able to force things like those on new members as a
> condition of membership and whatever the SNP say, they would not be
> "rejoining" the EU as Scotland has never been a member state.
>
> They think Economic and Monetary Union is just adopting the Euro but it
> means handing over complete control of a country's finances to Brussels.
>
>

Another fantasy.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 19:38:19 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <tt83h7$1tm1b$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:16:39 on Thu, 23 Feb
>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:27:11 +0000
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>>Relatively speaking the south-of-the-river extension has been a flop,
>>>probably because it has a comparatively small catchment area, and is not
>>>much of an improvement on the bus services.
>>
>>Useful for park and ride though if you're coming off the northbound M1.
>
>I wonder what parking you are thinking of.

Seriously?

https://goo.gl/maps/mhtzZGGjpSwSnxQK9

Used it a number of times in preference to parking at ratcliffe and getting
the mainline in.

>Acres. Most people there would drive, because while the bus service is

Why would anyone drive 2 miles into central nottingham and faff around with
trying to park if they can get on a tram?

In message <tt9tfh$25ttp$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:45:37 on Fri, 24 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
>> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
>> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible. It would be the
>> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.
>
>Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.

I used to think that in event of Brexit, then "the UK would stay in the
Single Market" for similar reasons. And look what happened.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tta5v4$26ps5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:10:28 on Fri, 24 Feb
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 19:38:19 +0000
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>In message <tt83h7$1tm1b$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:16:39 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:27:11 +0000
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>>Relatively speaking the south-of-the-river extension has been a flop,
>>>>probably because it has a comparatively small catchment area, and is not
>>>>much of an improvement on the bus services.
>>>
>>>Useful for park and ride though if you're coming off the northbound M1.
>>
>>I wonder what parking you are thinking of.
>
>Seriously?
>
>https://goo.gl/maps/mhtzZGGjpSwSnxQK9
>
>Used it a number of times in preference to parking at ratcliffe and getting
>the mainline in.

I need wonder no longer1

>>Acres. Most people there would drive, because while the bus service is
>
>Why would anyone drive 2 miles into central nottingham and faff around with
>trying to park if they can get on a tram?

Maybe the several thousand car parking spaces (if they are going
shopping) would attract them. Then of course, only a subset are using
their car to go somewhere the tram would be a useful substitute.

Compton Acres is entirely east of the tram line; how far would *you*
walk to a tram stop, if there was a bus stop closer? 5 minutes, 10
minutes...?
--
Roland Perry

In message <tt8oco$1vsif$5@dont-email.me>, at 22:12:40 on Thu, 23 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 23/02/2023 21:26, Recliner wrote:
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English
>>>>>>>>bus passes
>>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are
>>>>>>>>priced as buses,
>>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>>
>>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>>> to the south.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>>> islands.
>>>
>> I thought joining Schengen was compulsory when joining the EU now?
>
>No, not all EU members are in Schengen,

But then they aren't newly joining.

>and not all Schengen members are in the EU, or have any intention of
>joining.

--
Roland Perry