Am 11.09.21 um 01:12 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
> On 11/09/2021 00.50, JF Mezei wrote:
>> On 2021-09-10 07:33, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>>
>>> Entering the PIN on a pad is not relevant from a pandemic point of view
>>> anyway.
>>
>>
>> Yes it is. Just because the virus renmains viable after being expelled
>> and the droplet evaporating (leving virus in air) doees not reduce the
>> risk of catching it via touching surfaces.
>>
>> It is because people were conditioned to be careful about surfaces that
>> the trasnmission was reduced, but it doesn't mean that it isn't a potent
>> vector for transmission if people drop their guard.
>
> Studies have since demonstrated that the risk of infection that way is
> negligible, inexistent.

+1

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

In article <shgumc$k6o$1@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
wrote:

> >>
> >> An author who wanted to take PayPal had to open a bank
> >> account and give control of it to PayPal. They would direct
> >> deposit payments, but only at their discretion.
> >
> > paypal users have always been able to transfer money to/from a linked
> > bank account at any time.
> >
> >> And they had
> >> the power to lock the account.
> >
> > they can lock the paypal account if there's fraud.
> >
> > the linked bank account is outside their control.
>
> In my case they even do not know which bank I use.

they have to know if they're going to transfer money to it.

JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote
> Joerg Lorenz wrote

>> Neither Apple nor Google will succeed outside the US exactely
>> because of the resons you mentioned. Most people want to do
>> the business directly with their bank and the merchant

> In Canada, debit cards are fully supported on ApplePay.

They are in the rest of the world too. The only real quirk is
that it isn't possible for the merchant to charge a zero surcharge
on them and not with credit cards because the merchant terminal
has no way of knowing if it’s a credit or debit card with applepay.

Only Aldi does that in my country, Australia, tho.

> These are true debit cartds, not credit cards with 0 credit that result
> in issuing bank reducing checking acocunt balance right away.

That doesn’t happen in my country.

> The Interac system is totally separate network with different fees
> for transactions and does not involve the credit card companies.
> It was originaly created in mid 1980s to allow use of any bankLs
> ATM for widthdrawals. In early 1990s, expanded to use at stores
> for POS transctions. (at the time mag stripe + PIN).

> The advent of chip cards didn't change much except you had to leave
> card in POS while entering PIN. And when contactless came around,
> the companies that provide POS terminals (no longer banks) made it
> easy for stores to update to support it. However, credit and debiut
> remain separate functions, and one reason you are asked "debit or credit"
> when paying in Canada. (though some machines detect automatically).

> By the time Apple Pay arrived in Canada, contactless
> was already widely deployed so it is just a matter of
> choosing whether card or phone was more convenient.

Almost universal here too.

> FaceID reduced usefulness of iPhone because of need to double click and
> authenticate prior to waving phone at POS. The advent of masks makes
> FACID a pain. So paying with card is more frequent during COVID than
> before.

JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote
> Joerg Lorenz wrote

>> Entering the PIN on a pad is not relevant
>> from a pandemic point of view anyway.

> Yes it is. Just because the virus renmains viable after being
> expelled and the droplet evaporating (leving virus in air)
> doees not reduce the risk of catching it via touching surfaces.

> It is because people were conditioned to be careful
> about surfaces that the trasnmission was reduced,

That’s less clear. In fact its aerosols and masks that did that.

> but it doesn't mean that it isn't a potent vector
> for transmission if people drop their guard.

Its far from clear that it actually is. Very difficult to study rigorously.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> AJL wrote
>> Frank Slootweg wrote
>>> Basically you can't compare the European/EU payment systems with
>>> those of the US. The US is way behind, sometimes decades ('checks'
>>> anyone?), and is not really catching on.
>> I still find checks very handy. It's an easy way to transfer money to an
>> individual without needing to know anything but his name. No app info
>> required. For example I generally mail checks in birthday cards to
>> grandkids around the country because it's safer than mailing cash and I
>> know that they got them when the check clears.

> That would backfire here.
>
> Kids can have a bank account, and you normally need a bank account to
> cash a cheque (and it goes into your account). However, the kid can not
> withdraw a cent out of his own account till he is of age. No exceptions.

Bizarre. We have the reverse, banks are encouraged to get kids
to open a bank account when they are in primary school and
they are free to do anything they like with the money in them.

No credit card until they are older tho, mostly 18, some banks 16.
> An cashing a cheque without an account, into cash, incurs a high fee.

New Zealand has scrapped checks completely now. We, Australia
are getting close to that with few stores accepting them anymore.

We still have bank checks for high value transactions like buying a car.

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote

>>> It's an easy way to transfer money to an individual
>>> without needing to know anything but his name.

>> All you need with paypal is his email address and with the instant
>> electronic transfer, either that or his mobile/cellphone number.

> I passed 40 grandkids/greatgrandkids awhile back. Many
> don't have an email address or any online presence.

But their parents would have.

> Much easier with gift checks...

Much more work for the parents.

Am 11.09.21 um 03:03 schrieb nospam:
> In article <shgumc$k6o$1@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
> wrote:
>> In my case they even do not know which bank I use.
>
> they have to know if they're going to transfer money to it.

That is all done on my Master-Card. Pay-Pal does not have to know my bank.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote
> Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote
>> | > That's an interesting one. In their early days they were
>> | > trying to get shareware authors onboard. But they required
>> | > that the author let them control the bank account for payment
>> | > deposits. There were horror stories of people having their
>> | > account locked indefinitely by PayPal due to customer
>> | > complaints, etc. So I made a point of never dealing with them
>> | > in any capacity.
>> |
>> | Ow.
>> |
>> | What account, the bank account or the paypal account?
>> |
>>
>> An author who wanted to take PayPal had to open a bank
>> account and give control of it to PayPal. They would direct
>> deposit payments, but only at their discretion.
> paypal users have always been able to transfer
> money to/from a linked bank account at any time.

Its not that simple with merchant accounts.
>> And they had the power to lock the account.

> they can lock the paypal account if there's fraud.
> the linked bank account is outside their control.

But the transfer between the paypal
account and the bank account isn't.
>> So they weren't really operating
>> as a payment service. It was more like software authors were
>> PayPal empoyees who got paid as PayPal saw fit.
> it wasn't like that at all.

It is with the transfer between the paypal
account and the bank account.

Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote
> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote

> | > Me, I would never use Apple/Google pay and give
> | > them even more data; only in case of last resort.
> |
> | Actually, the reason a few chain stores in the U.S. won't accept Apple
> | Pay or Google Pay is because they get _less_ data than they get from
> | regular credit card transactions, either Chip & Pin or contactless.
> | Apple Pay and Google Pay obfuscate the transaction so the merchant gets
> | less data and the merchant doesn't even see the actually credit card
> number.
> |
>
> That's possible. Apple, especially, is sleazy that way,
> trying to keep all the personal data for themselves.

In fact Apple doesn’t use your personal data
at all and cant even see where you have
physically been using apple maps either.

> But in the long run it's reasonable to assume that
> you're losing more data to Google and Apple.

No it isn't. Apple cant even see anything but the
transaction value with an apple pay transaction.

> Why? Because that's their business model.

No it isn't with apple.

> They're both sleazy companies that make
> much of their profit by tracking you.

Apple doesn’t track you.

> With Apple it's just not as obvious because
> they try to keep ads, etc in-house.

In fact I get no ads from them at all.

> And most AppleSeeds see it differently. They
> regard Apple's spying as "premium service".

More mindless bullshit.

> Not so with retail stores. I don't recall ever getting
> flyers in the mail from stores where I use credit cards.

I do.

> I generally use cash, anyway.

That’s why you don’t get flyers in the mail, stupid.

> But for some large things I pay credit.
> I also don't sign up for any "loyalty" IDs.

More fool you, I get substantial discounts that way
and get an electronic receipt too so I don’t have
to fart around with paper receipts for warranty
claims or returns.

> So in the vast majority of cases
> there's no personal data involved.

> I saw a funny thing on TV last night. The redneck governor
> of W. Virginia was on TV, pleading with his constituents to get
> vaccinated. He complained that people had wacky ideas that
> tracking devices were in the vaccines. Then he pointed out that
> most people worried about that were carrying around cellphones.
> I never thought I'd hear a gov't official admit to phone tracking,
> much less a redneck governor... So there's hope. :)

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> On 11/09/2021 01.16, Rod Speed wrote:
>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>>>> Joerg Lorenz wrote
>>>>>> Am 09.09.21 um 22:30 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
>>>>>>> On 09/09/2021 19.56, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>> <https://www.techradar.com/news/barely-anyone-is-using-apple-pay-in-stores-anymore>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "New research released Tuesday by PYMNTS.com found that only 6% of
>>>>>>>> shoppers with iPhones in the US had used the platform to pay for
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> in-store purchases at some point in the past year."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They don't talk about Google Pay or Samsung Pay but I suspect
>>>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>>> numbers are even lower for those systems, see
>>>>>>>> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/722213/user-base-of-leading-digital-wallets-nfc/>.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Even though there are a lot more Android devices in the world
>>>>>>>> than iOS
>>>>>>>> devices, Apple Pay has more users than Google Pay and Samsung Pay
>>>>>>>> combined (and many of the Samsung Pay users are probably also
>>>>>>>> part of
>>>>>>>> the Google Pay number and vice-versa).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This 6% number surprised me since in my area paying with your phone
>>>>>>>> appears to be at a much higher level than 6%, But I live in Silicon
>>>>>>>> Valley where people are more tech-savvy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The increase in contactless credit cards has apparently been
>>>>>>>> responsible
>>>>>>>> for the general lack of interest in paying with a phone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here (Spain) there are other platforms for paying with the phone,
>>>>>>> provided usually by banks directly. I would not use either Apple or
>>>>>>> Google pay, giving them even more information about myself, but I
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> used the one from my bank - and I simply do not like it, as it is
>>>>>>> simply
>>>>>>> faster and easier to pay with the contactless card (here everybody
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> CL since years). Just a fact.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is what I called an electronic cash transaction. In Europe
>>>>>> they are
>>>>>> the real growth area. In Switzerland they call it "Twint". Even
>>>>>> P2P-Transactions are possible. Thats the way we clear money issues in
>>>>>> the wider family.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.twint.ch/en/
>>>>>
>>>>> That's another one. No, I was talking of an specific bank app that
>>>>> replaces the card, and the phone works as if it were the NFC card.
>>>>> Quite
>>>>> cumbersome.
>>>>
>>>>> 1) Open the phone, identify.
>>>>> 2) Open the banking app, identify.
>>>>> 3) Line up to pay at the supermarket. Unload your goods into the
>>>>> "belt".
>>>>> 4) The bank app has timed out and closed. Open it up again - and it
>>>>> takes a few seconds to respond after identification.
>>>>> 5) People in the line get politely restless.
>>>>
>>>> That’s where you are doing it wrong. You should be
>>>> putting your stuff on the belt, wait till the checkout
>>>> monkey has scanned most of the items, then setup
>>>> your phone to make the payment. No one then has
>>>> to wait for you to do anything.
>>
>>> And that's what you don't understand,
>>
>> We'll see...
>>
>>> the bank app takes a minute to be ready before I
>>> can wave it at the machine reader. I tried two banks.
>>
>> And apple pay doesn’t, so you should be using that.
>
> Except that merchants do not accept Apple/Google Pay here.

That’s wrong.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207957

>>> So I prefer to prepare the app in advance,
>>> while I'm in the line doing nothing but waiting.
>>
>> Makes more sense to do that after you load your
>> stuff onto the belt and only fire up the app if you
>> are stupid enough to use the app instead of applepay.

> Back to insulting.

Nope.

> zap.

Fat lot of good that will do you, stupid.

On 9/10/2021 3:18 PM, AJL wrote:

<snip>

> I still find checks very handy. It's an easy way to transfer money to an
> individual without needing to know anything but his name.

Zelle or Venmo are much safer than checks. When you give an unknown
person a check they then have all your information, name, address,
checking account number, and routing number. It’s very easy to print up
some checks with that information.

Sure, if you keep careful track of your checking account you’ll spot the
fraud but then you’re in for the hassle of trying to get the money back.
In my area we have had a big problem with mail theft. They are looking
for things like checks and credit cards. The thieves not only break into
mail boxes, often cluster boxes at apartment buildings and condominiums,
but they also break into mail trucks.

The times I use cash is when I'm buying something from an individual on
craigslist, or paying a repair person for a low-value job.

On Sep 10, 2021, Rod Speed wrote
(in article <iq2fsuFcnmtU1@mid.individual.net>):

> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote
> > Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote
>
> > > > > That's an interesting one. In their early days they were
> > > > > trying to get shareware authors onboard. But they required
> > > > > that the author let them control the bank account for payment
> > > > > deposits. There were horror stories of people having their
> > > > > account locked indefinitely by PayPal due to customer
> > > > > complaints, etc. So I made a point of never dealing with them
> > > > > in any capacity.
> > > >
> > > > Ow.
> > > >
> > > > What account, the bank account or the paypal account?
> > >
> > > An author who wanted to take PayPal had to open a bank
> > > account and give control of it to PayPal. They would direct
> > > deposit payments, but only at their discretion.
>
> > paypal users have always been able to transfer
> > money to/from a linked bank account at any time.
>
> Its not that simple with merchant accounts.
>
> > > And they had the power to lock the account.
>
> > they can lock the paypal account if there's fraud.
>
> > the linked bank account is outside their control.
>
> But the transfer between the paypal
> account and the bank account isn't.
>
> > > So they weren't really operating
> > > as a payment service. It was more like software authors were
> > > PayPal empoyees who got paid as PayPal saw fit.
>
> > it wasn't like that at all.
>
> It is with the transfer between the paypal
> account and the bank account.

Actually PayPal acts as an escrow account for most of their transactions.

--
Regards,
Savageduck

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote
> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote
>
>> >>
>> >> An author who wanted to take PayPal had to open a bank
>> >> account and give control of it to PayPal. They would direct
>> >> deposit payments, but only at their discretion.
>> >
>> > paypal users have always been able to transfer money to/from a linked
>> > bank account at any time.
>> >
>> >> And they had
>> >> the power to lock the account.
>> >
>> > they can lock the paypal account if there's fraud.
>> >
>> > the linked bank account is outside their control.
>>
>> In my case they even do not know which bank I use.
>
> they have to know if they're going to transfer money to it.

But you are free to just spend it with a merchant etc.

On 9/10/2021 4:09 PM, sms wrote:

<snip>

> Hopefully, the proliferation of cashless businesses will encourage
> "unbanked" individuals to open bank or credit union accounts. There is
> no shortage of banks and credit unions that offer accounts with no
> minimum balance and no monthly fees. This would also hurt the predatory
> check cashing industry which, in California, can charge up to a 3.5%
> commission, to those individuals that can least afford to give up such a
> high percentage of their money.

After I wrote this I was out at a new hardware store that just opened
about a week ago, Outdoor Supply Hardware, which is taking over some of
the properties of the old Orchard Supply Hardware which Lowe's bought
and then shuttered <https://www.outdoorsupplyhardware.com/>.

Only one checkout lane was open. It had a "No Cash" sign. The cashier
asked if I was paying with a card. I said yest then I asked her if the
store did not take cash and she said no, not right now. But at least,
unlike Home Depot or Lowe's, they take Apple Pay, Google Pay, and
presumably Samsung Pay.

On 9/10/2021 4:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 11/09/2021 00.18, AJL wrote:
>> On 9/10/2021 12:43 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>
>>> Basically you can't compare the European/EU payment systems with
>>> those of the US. The US is way behind, sometimes decades ('checks'
>>> anyone?), and is not really catching on.
>>
>> I still find checks very handy. It's an easy way to transfer money to an
>> individual without needing to know anything but his name. No app info
>> required. For example I generally mail checks in birthday cards to
>> grandkids around the country because it's safer than mailing cash and I
>> know that they got them when the check clears.
>
> That would backfire here.
>
> Kids can have a bank account, and you normally need a bank account to
> cash a cheque (and it goes into your account). However, the kid can not
> withdraw a cent out of his own account till he is of age. No exceptions.
>
> An cashing a cheque without an account, into cash, incurs a high fee.

One bank I use had prepaid debit cards for kids that the parent could
fund. I had them set up to give my kids their allowance each week. But
kids can have checking accounts here too. There were no fees at all
<https://www.usaa.com/inet/wc/youth-checking-account>.

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> said:
> In fact Apple doesn't use your personal data at all

%% (aka Rod Speed) is wrong .

"What data is Apple collecting?
https://www.macrumors.com/guide/apple-id/

When you use an Apple ID and especially when using an Apple ID with iCloud,
Apple collects certain data about you.

This includes your name, address, phone number, and device and app purchase
history (with serial numbers and other info for all your devices), along
with iCloud access logs, phone call and message metadata, repair
transactions, and more."

<%%@gmail.com> said:
> That's wrong.

(%% is Rod Speed)

On 2021-09-10 8:24 p.m., allen wrote:
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> said:
>> In fact Apple doesn't use your personal data at all
>
> %% (aka Rod Speed) is wrong .
>
> "What data is Apple collecting?
> https://www.macrumors.com/guide/apple-id/
>
> When you use an Apple ID and especially when using an Apple ID with iCloud,
> Apple collects certain data about you.
>
> This includes your name, address, phone number, and device and app purchase
> history (with serial numbers and other info for all your devices), along
> with iCloud access logs, phone call and message metadata, repair
> transactions, and more."
>

If you use iCloud...

....which you don't have to.

On 2021-09-10 8:26 p.m., allen wrote:
> <%%@gmail.com> said:
>> That's wrong.
>
> (%% is Rod Speed)
>

And you're Arlen, so...

On 9/10/2021 6:59 PM, sms wrote:
> On 9/10/2021 3:18 PM, AJL wrote:

>> I still find checks very handy. It's an easy way to transfer money
>> to an individual without needing to know anything but his name.

> Zelle or Venmo are much safer than checks.

They don't do much good if neither I or the recipient use them.

> When you give an unknown person a check they then have all your
> information, name, address, checking account number, and routing
> number.

I don't give unknown people a check. I don't use them at stores either,
no cashback... ;)

> It’s very easy to print up some checks with that information.

Same with info obtained for credit card fraud.

> Sure, if you keep careful track of your checking account you’ll spot
> the fraud

I've gone over 50 years without a problem, checks or credit cards
(knocks on wood), but hey stuff happens...

> but then you’re in for the hassle of trying to get the money back.

But I WOULD get it back in the end, just like credit card fraud.

> In my area we have had a big problem with mail theft. They are
> looking for things like checks

I generally keep less than a hundred bucks in my checking account so if
the perps wrote a check worth their trouble it would bounce anyway.

> and credit cards.

When my credit cards come in the mail they have to be authorized before
they will work.

> The thieves not only break into mail boxes, often cluster boxes at
> apartment buildings and condominiums, but they also break into mail
> trucks.

Things aren't quite that tough here though the mail person often gets
mail in the wrong box. The PO sends me an email every day with a photo
of the day's mail so I usually know when something's missing.

> The times I use cash is when I'm buying something from an individual
> on craigslist, or paying a repair person for a low-value job.

I keep about $2K US cash in the house for emergencies but other than
that about all I use cash for is tips...

Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote
>> > Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote
>>
>> > > > > That's an interesting one. In their early days they were
>> > > > > trying to get shareware authors onboard. But they required
>> > > > > that the author let them control the bank account for payment
>> > > > > deposits. There were horror stories of people having their
>> > > > > account locked indefinitely by PayPal due to customer
>> > > > > complaints, etc. So I made a point of never dealing with them
>> > > > > in any capacity.
>> > > >
>> > > > Ow.
>> > > >
>> > > > What account, the bank account or the paypal account?
>> > >
>> > > An author who wanted to take PayPal had to open a bank
>> > > account and give control of it to PayPal. They would direct
>> > > deposit payments, but only at their discretion.
>>
>> > paypal users have always been able to transfer
>> > money to/from a linked bank account at any time.
>>
>> Its not that simple with merchant accounts.
>>
>> > > And they had the power to lock the account.
>>
>> > they can lock the paypal account if there's fraud.
>>
>> > the linked bank account is outside their control.
>>
>> But the transfer between the paypal
>> account and the bank account isn't.
>>
>> > > So they weren't really operating
>> > > as a payment service. It was more like software authors were
>> > > PayPal empoyees who got paid as PayPal saw fit.
>>
>> > it wasn't like that at all.
>>
>> It is with the transfer between the paypal
>> account and the bank account.
>
> Actually PayPal acts as an escrow account for most of their transactions.

What I said in different words.

allen <allen@spam.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> said:

>> In fact Apple doesn't use your personal data at all

> Rod Speed is wrong .

We'll see...
>
> "What data is Apple collecting?
> https://www.macrumors.com/guide/apple-id/

> When you use an Apple ID and especially when using an
> Apple ID with iCloud, Apple collects certain data about you.

That’s not USING.

> This includes your name, address, phone number, and device
> and app purchase history (with serial numbers and other info
> for all your devices), along with iCloud access logs, phone call
> and message metadata, repair transactions, and more."

But apple doesn’t USE that data.

On 2021-09-10 19:12, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> Studies have since demonstrated that the risk of infection that way is
> negligible, inexistent.

The risk has not diminished. The fact that the virus remains active
after its supporting droplet has evaporated in the air also points to
virus remaining active for longer on any surface.

Except for current eclosion in New Zealand where 1 case has lead to some
850 infections that are each traced back and analyzed carefuylly, there
is very little evidence on how each case in the world was transmitted.

There are cases that can only be explained via air transmission. So we
know it happens. But few countries have surveillance systems capable of
tracing back each case to find out how it was transmitted. So theye
may be plentty of cases that happen via surface and we just don't
tabulatre it.

On 2021-09-10 19:13, sms wrote:

> True, but if you have a credit card that gives you higher cash back for
> mobile wallet, you'll probably endure the hassle of FaceID for 2x or 3x
> cash back.

If you have such a credit card, then when it is more convenient to use
the pastic card vs dealing with FaceID with a mask, you use the plastic
card and ger same rewards.

On 2021-09-10 19:15, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> Not really, the interaction is local, between the driver machine and
> your card (which has a chip and memory). Internet is not needed.

A connection is needed to verify that your card is
1-valid
2-has sufficient funds.

There are exceptions to this, namely on-board purchases on an aircraft
where they are allowed to process transactions without authorization and
process them when they next land.

Note that the airline has much info on each passenger, so if there is
fraud, they can contact the passenger. Not for for public transit who
handle thousands of ephemeral passengers each day without any
reservation or contact info.