On 13/09/2021 18.56, Chris wrote:
> On 13/09/2021 16:14, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>> One of the things that they are testing here is, as bank branches and
>>> ATMs are disappearing from villages, deliver cash to old people in
>>> villages that request it.
>>
>>    Here (Rob's and my country) they sometimes have a sort of shuttle
>> services to bring people to the ATM/bank or/and have mobile banks, i.e.
>> a branch office in a van.
>
> They do this in the Highlands of Scotland as well. The villages are too
> remote to warrant an actual bank branch. They used to do most services
> in the van, but nowadays I think they're most tech support to help
> people use internet/mobile banking.

I've heard of the postman do tech support, too.

....

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 13/09/2021 19.51, nospam wrote:
> In article <k0f41ixqnt.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>>>>>> Mobile wallet. What app is that one?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> no app needed, other than to initially add cards.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Add where?
>>>>>
>>>>> to apple/google pay.
>>>>>
>>>> Ah, no, will use neither.
>>>
>>> any particular reason?
>>>
>>
>> I don't have apples, and I don't like gugle on this thing.
>
> what make/model is this 'thing' and are you using a custom rom?
>

No, I mean I don't like to use Google for money things, like Google pay.
I might set it up for a trip, for backup, then disable it perhaps.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 13/09/2021 19.51, nospam wrote:
> In article <sho2ft$ipt$1@gioia.aioe.org>, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>>> Another neighbour can call the police, when he sees a kid mowing
>>>> the grass not at his home.
>>>
>>> That's un-American!
>>
>> In my jurisdiction we used to call them neighbor disputes. We had a
>> unique police radio code for them which I don't remember now. I've been
>> retired for 31 years so things have likely changed a bit anyway. But we
>> sure used to get a LOT of calls for them. And for the dumbest things.
>> Like family fights they were mostly (but not always) civil in nature but
>> police responded anyway to try to keep the peace. So neighbors calling
>> the cops to complain about neighbors was definitely an American pastime...
>
> it just became much more than a pastime in texas, where people can make
> $10,000 by reporting their neighbors...
>

Why? I suppose it means reporting that turns out to be on something big,
like the next secret lab of Walter White?

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 13/09/2021 17:16, AJL wrote:
>> On 9/13/2021 1:02 AM, Rob wrote:
>>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>>>> On 9/12/2021 12:05 PM, Rob wrote:
>>
>>>>> Here, banks (and lots of other businesses) don't care at all
>>>>> about existing customers. Only new customers are important.
>>
>>>> Existing customers often become someone's new customers if the
>>>> wanted services are lacking...
>>
>> Wells Fargo is an example of a US bank with services lacking including
>> fraud on the customer - Google it if curious.
>>
>>> With the banking system as it is here, that is only a small risk. It
>>> is so much effort to move everything to a new bank and new account
>>> number, and the situation will be the same at that other bank. So
>>> most customers stay at the same bank for life.
>>
>> Many banks here advertise their rates and services often. (Some
>> in my junk mail.) I doubt they'd waste their money if the ads weren't
>> effective at drawing in new customers. Bank competition is a
>> good thing for the customer. Competitive cashback credit card rates for
>> example...
>
> Here we have a Switch service to simplify the move from one bank to
> another. Basically, you sign up with the new bank and they do the rest
> incl. transferring direct debits, standing orders and any account
> balance. It's guaranteed and takes 7 working days.

Aha, that is nice. Our switch service here is much more primitive.
It basically means that you get to keep your old account number for
13 months and any direct debits or other usage of the old account
number is forwarded to your new account, AND results in a message to
you so you can arrange for the new account number to be registered at
the company doing the direct debit.

Basically, you perform all the work yourself and the switch service
only serves as a reminder service and avoids the situation where your
direct debits silently fail and you get in trouble because you don't pay.

With IBAN it would have been possible to make account numbers portable
across banks, just like telephone numbers are over here, but the banks
made sure that is not going to happen, neither now or in the future,
by making the bank-specific prefix a 4-character abbreviation of the
bank NAME. So the name appears clearly visible in every Dutch IBAN.

Other countries were more clever and used a numeric code, so in the
future it will be possible to let that lose its meaning and just make
the prefix+account number a "national account number" that with the
country prefix+checksum is portable across banks.

Dutch IBAN are like this:
NLxxBBBBnnnnnnnnnn

NL=Netherlands
xx=the IBAN check digits (calculated from the entire number)
BBBB=the 4-character abbreviation of the bank name, like ABNA or INGB
nnnnnnnnnn=the original account number at that bank

The account numbers used before the IBAN conversion already contained a
2-digit code for the bank (except for old Postbank accounts), so the
inclusion of the bankname is mostly redundant. And using a name
instead of some numeric code means the bank is visible in the number,
of course no bank would want to use accountnumbers with another bank's
name in it, so they will never be portable.

On 9/13/2021 11:03 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 13/09/2021 19.51, nospam wrote:
>> In article <sho2ft$ipt$1@gioia.aioe.org>, AJL <noemail@none.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>> Another neighbour can call the police, when he sees a kid
>>>>> mowing the grass not at his home.
>>>>
>>>> That's un-American!
>>>
>>> In my jurisdiction we used to call them neighbor disputes. We had
>>> a unique police radio code for them which I don't remember now.
>>> I've been retired for 31 years so things have likely changed a
>>> bit anyway. But we sure used to get a LOT of calls for them. And
>>> for the dumbest things. Like family fights they were mostly (but
>>> not always) civil in nature but police responded anyway to try to
>>> keep the peace. So neighbors calling the cops to complain about
>>> neighbors was definitely an American pastime...
>>
>> it just became much more than a pastime in texas, where people can
>> make $10,000 by reporting their neighbors...
>
> Why? I suppose it means reporting that turns out to be on something
> big, like the next secret lab of Walter White?

In Texas you can now civilly sue your neighbor (or anyone) if she has an
abortion after 6 weeks. Only in America...

On 9/13/2021 10:51 AM, nospam wrote:
> In article <sho2ft$ipt$1@gioia.aioe.org>, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>>> Another neighbour can call the police, when he sees a kid mowing
>>>> the grass not at his home.
>>>
>>> That's un-American!
>>
>> In my jurisdiction we used to call them neighbor disputes. We had a
>> unique police radio code for them which I don't remember now. I've been
>> retired for 31 years so things have likely changed a bit anyway. But we
>> sure used to get a LOT of calls for them. And for the dumbest things.
>> Like family fights they were mostly (but not always) civil in nature but
>> police responded anyway to try to keep the peace. So neighbors calling
>> the cops to complain about neighbors was definitely an American pastime...
>
> it just became much more than a pastime in texas, where people can make
> $10,000 by reporting their neighbors...

No cops involved in that thank God. All civil...

In article <sbg41ix83u.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> >> In my jurisdiction we used to call them neighbor disputes. We had a
> >> unique police radio code for them which I don't remember now. I've been
> >> retired for 31 years so things have likely changed a bit anyway. But we
> >> sure used to get a LOT of calls for them. And for the dumbest things.
> >> Like family fights they were mostly (but not always) civil in nature but
> >> police responded anyway to try to keep the peace. So neighbors calling
> >> the cops to complain about neighbors was definitely an American pastime...
> >
> > it just became much more than a pastime in texas, where people can make
> > $10,000 by reporting their neighbors...
> >
>
> Why? I suppose it means reporting that turns out to be on something big,
> like the next secret lab of Walter White?

texas just passed a law where someone can get $10,000 by reporting
*anyone* involved in a woman getting an abortion, including a rideshare
driver who may not even know the reason he's taking someone somewhere.

uber and lyft have established a legal defense fund in the event one of
their drivers is sued, and for $10k, that is a very real possibility.

it's a very devious end-run around the constitution and has already
been challenged.

although the texas law is about abortion, it could easily be rewritten
for just about anything else.

<https://www.npr.org/2021/09/01/1033202132/texas-abortion-ban-what-happe
ns-next>
The law allows private citizens to sue abortion providers and anyone
else who helps a woman obtain an abortion ‹ including those who give
a woman a ride to a clinic or provide financial assistance to obtain
an abortion. Private citizens who bring these suits don't need to
show any connection to those they are suing.
....
Anyone who successfully sues an abortion provider under this law
could be awarded at least $10,000. And to prepare for that, Texas
Right to Life has set up what it calls a "whistleblower" website
where people can submit anonymous tips about anyone they
believe to be violating the law.

<https://www.cnet.com/news/lyft-uber-say-theyll-cover-legal-fees-for-dri
vers-sued-under-texas-abortion-law/>
The CEOs of ride-hailing companies Uber and Lyft are taking a stance
on Senate Bill 8, the Texas law that bans abortions after about six
weeks of pregnancy. Lyft CEO Logan Green said Friday that the company
has created a legal defense fund to cover all legal fees for drivers
sued under the new law. 

On 9/13/2021 10:54 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 13/09/2021 19.44, sms wrote:
>> On 9/13/2021 6:15 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Another factor here against teenagers working is that they steal jobs
>>> from grown ups supporting a family. The teenager may work for a little
>>> money that can not pay the cost of living on his own, would be seen in
>>> bad light, similar to paperless inmigrants. In a country where we have
>>> close to 20% unemployment, that's important.
>>
>> I think that that's a big factor. In the U.S. many types of businesses
>> depend on minimum wage, part-time, unbenefitted, teenage unskilled
>> labor, i.e. fast-food, movie theaters, and retail stores.
>
> Oh, I remember noticing in Ottawa that often restaurant service was not
> "professional" (compared to my country, Spain), being done by teenagers
> mostly instead of seasoned professionals. They can be very willing,
> certainly, but they lack experience.

A lot of restaurants in my area, and not just fast food, have changed
their systems to mitigate the employee shortage. Many have implemented
online ordering, even when you're sitting at a table. Menus are often
not provided since they'd have to clean them, so they put a QR code on
the table and you scan it with your phone to see the menu. Some have
eliminated waiter/waitress service and you order at a kiosk, or at the
counter and pay then your food is either brought to your table or you
pick it up. Menu choices have been pared back. Cash is discouraged and
sometimes not accepted at all, though this is rare and almost no one
pays cash anyway.

On 9/13/2021 11:03 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 13/09/2021 19.51, nospam wrote:

<snip>

>> it just became much more than a pastime in texas, where people can make
>> $10,000 by reporting their neighbors...
>>
>
> Why? I suppose it means reporting that turns out to be on something big,
> like the next secret lab of Walter White?

Now people are overwhelming the Texas system with fake reports, see
<https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/02/texas-abortion-law-tiktok-reddit-whistleblower>.

"One TikTok user said they had submitted 742 fake reports of the
governor, Greg Abbott, getting illegal abortions."

On 9/13/2021 11:48 AM, sms wrote:
> On 9/13/2021 11:03 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 13/09/2021 19.51, nospam wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> it just became much more than a pastime in texas, where people can make
>>> $10,000 by reporting their neighbors...
>>>
>>
>> Why? I suppose it means reporting that turns out to be on something big,
>> like the next secret lab of Walter White?
>
> Now people are overwhelming the Texas system with fake reports, see
> <https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/02/texas-abortion-law-tiktok-reddit-whistleblower>.
>
>
> "One TikTok user said they had submitted 742 fake reports of the
> governor, Greg Abbott, getting illegal abortions."

BTW, you don't get $10,000 for turning someone in, the person you turn
in gets fined $10,000.

On 9/13/2021 10:41 AM, AJL wrote:
> On 9/13/2021 10:11 AM, sms wrote:
>> On 9/13/2021 3:47 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>>> Another neighbour can call the police, when he sees a kid mowing
>>> the grass not at his home.
>>
>> That's un-American!
>
> In my jurisdiction we used to call them neighbor disputes. We had a
> unique police radio code for them which I don't remember now. I've been
> retired for 31 years so things have likely changed a bit anyway. But we
> sure used to get a LOT of calls for them. And for the dumbest things.

These still occur, and usually just a few residents are responsible for
a large number of such calls, i.e. "my neighbor has a bunch of potted
plants and they he put them too close to the property line."

Wilf <wilf@postingx.uk> wrote:
> On 13/09/2021 at 15:17, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > On 13/09/2021 15.38, nospam wrote:
> >> In article <eb041ix83r.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
> >> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Mobile wallet. What app is that one?
> >>>>
> >>>> no app needed, other than to initially add cards.
> >>>
> >>> Add where?
> >>
> >> to apple/google pay.
> >>
> > Ah, no, will use neither.
> >
>
> A pity - you are missing out on a really excellent payment facility.
> Over the past 18 months or so, I have used cash two or three times and
> for hundreds of contactless transactions I have not had to use a credit
> card even once, because I could and did always use Apple Pay.

No, we're not (missing out on ...). As has been mentioned umpteen
times in this thread, we (in Europe/the_EU) have had contactless
transactions for eons and have had contactless *mobile* (i.e. with a
smartphone) transactions for many years. For us Apple/Google/Samsung/
<whatever> Pay are (too) late to the party and add no payment
functionality [1].

[1] That of course does not mean that we won't (have to?) use it when we
go to some underdeveloped country outside Europe.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
[...]

> I've heard of the postman do tech support, too.

In reverse, I've been known to deliver mail.

Rob <nomail@example.com> wrote
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote
>> Rob wrote

>>> Here, banks (and lots of other businesses) don't care at all about
>>> existing customers. Only new customers are important.
>>
>> Existing customers often become someone's new customers if the wanted
>> services are lacking...
>
> With the banking system as it is here, that is only a small risk.
> It is so much effort to move everything to a new bank and new account
> number,

Minimal effort here particularly if the mortgage is fully paid off.

I did it a lot when they were still paying substantial interest rates.

> and the situation will be the same at that other bank.

That’s wrong too, some do much better than others.

One of mine, which provides a fee free credit card is
currently the third best rated in the entire country.

> So most customers stay at the same bank for life.

That’s not the case here.

Rob <nomail@example.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Rob <nomail@example.com> wrote
>>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote
>>>> Rob wrote
>>>>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote
>>
>>>>>> A paper birthday card with a few comments hand written by me,
>>>>>> mailed in a paper envelope with a birthday sticker, and a paper
>>>>>> gift check enclosed, just seems a little more personal to me than
>>>>>> a happy birthday text with a link.
>>>>
>>>>> It seems like mainly the elderly stick to that here, and send some
>>>>> money or a gift card.
>>>>
>>>> I'm 3 months from my 80th birthday. Do I qualify?
>>>
>>> Probably yes...
>>>
>>>>> But the next generation talks to the grandchildren via WhatsApp and
>>>>> sends them money using the bank app.
>>>>
>>>> What about the kids that don't have phones? Use the parents phones I
>>>> suppose.
>>>
>>> Kids that don't have phones??? These rarely exist...
>>> When they are really small I suppose they use the parents phones.
>>>
>>> But parents give their old phones to kids at a very young age, so
>>> much even that the "call emergency services without SIM card" service
>>> had to be disabled here because they were getting calls from kids
>>> playing with a phone with no SIM ("only emergency calls") all day.
>>
>> Weird, wonder why no one else had to disable that.
>>
>>>>> The postal system is in decay. Each year the tariff for sending
>>>>> mail is newly determined, it looks like by the formula of "how much
>>>>> revenue do we want or need" / "how many letters do we still expect
>>>>> to handle this year" causing an exponential rise in the stamp price
>>>>> that ends when the last person wanting to mail a card or letter has
>>>>> to pay te entire postal service revenue :-)
>>>>
>>>> Judging from my mailbox the PO makes most of its money from junk mail.
>>>> And unfortunately unlike my phone I can't filter most of it out...
>>>
>>> We have a junk mail filter service here so I do not get much of that.
>>> I get some letters from companies like bank or insurance companies
>>> or the government, but by far not as many as before. Maybe 2 in a week.
>>
>>> The post offices have all been closed.
>>
>> Even weirder. That hasn’t happened anywhere else either.
>>
>>> Most roadside mail deposit boxes have been removed.
>>
>> Even weirder. That hasn’t happened anywhere else either.
>>
>>> They used to be every 3 blocks in a city but
>>> now there may be one or two in a quarter.
>>
>>> Package delivery thrives, but the letter delivery is all but dead.
>>
>> Ours isn't. Not surprised yours is dead given no post offices etc.

> Probably we are a bit ahead of the curve
> due to wide adoption of new technology.

That’s very arguable with poor adoption of apple pay etc.

How does the dearth of a decent postal service affect
the elderly who find it much harder to communicate
electronically ?

> But I think it will happen everwhere.

Change certainly will but I cant see the postal service
dying completely any time soon. Or the use of cash either.

> The postal system is a labor-intensive system for a
> purpose that is being replaced by other technologies,

Yes, but that clearly hasn’t stopped the massive boom
in the parcel service where that is even more the case.

> and in an economic system that can only flourish in the
> presence of growth, it gets in a rapid downward spiral.

That clearly isn't true of junk mail.

> Of course some of the measures will further accelerate its downfall.

Yep.

> When there aren't many customers coming in,
> it is not economically viable to have a post office.

We fixed that problem by having agency post offices which
are operated by retail stores that do other stuff as well.

> When almost no letters are being dropped, it is no
> longer viable to have deposit boxes all over the city and
> a person driving along them once a day to empty them.

> Now we have some desks at stores (supermarket, bookstore) for postal
> services where you can buy stamps and handover letters or packages,
> and you can order stamps online either physically or as a barcode
> that you can print on a label and use to mail a letter or postcard.

Everyone has that now.

> Stamps do not even have their monetary value on them
> anymore, they are just "stamp for mailing a letter" because
> the price is increasing all the time (on the other hand that
> means you can save some money by keeping a stock).

Our price doesn’t, because the federal govt has
to approve the increase in the price of the stamp.

> I think the postal system will go the same way
> as the steam locomotive and the tow barge.

I doubt it, because everyone doesn’t have
some way of communicating electronically.

> Things that were established when there was a
> demand, and phased out when the demand ceased.

But demand wont cease with a postal
service. In fact its booming with parcels.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> Rob wrote
>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote

>>>> For transport, we have a completely separate system operated by the
>>>> transport companies and with functionality oriented towards that.
>>>> You present the card at both entry and exit from the system, and the
>>>> system calculates the fare and subtracts it from the balance on the
>>>> card. "It cannot be done" using the existing chipcard system, said
>>>> the transport companies, because that only handles money and not
>>>> the special functions for transport.
>>>
>>> Ah, because the fare changes with distance?
>>
>> Yes, and not only that. When you travel for a certain distance
>> you pay a fixed fee plus an amount per km travelled, but the fees
>> depend on your age (child, adult, pensioner) and also on your
>> posession of special tariff cards that could give a discount at
>> certain times of day, or let you travel for free on certain lines.
>
> Ah, yes.
>
>>
>> They call these (abhorrily) "travel products".
>> These are stored on the card in separate areas to allow the terminal
>> to calculate the correct fare.
>> There are also others, like "free rent of a bike at the destination".
>>
>> Of course when using a generic debit card this knowledge will have to be
>> stored in a central system, unless the banks cooperate and allow
>> some data storage in their card as well. And when it is centrally
>> stored, it will have to be retrieved when you present your card.
>
> Right. Or use together with a transport card that IDs you and stores
> that data. As in a supermarket with... huh, the name slips my tongue
> right now... loyalty cards. A bit of a hassle, though, and more
> complicated when using a phone.

Not with the best of them, its completely automatic when you
wave the phone at the terminal to pay for the transaction.
Completely automatic with the receipt electronic instead of
on paper so you can make a warranty claim or return too.

>
>>> There is something that I do not know for sure: the articles I read
>>> mention that you pay one trip fare with your card; and one trip fare was
>>> more expensive previously than buying a 10 trips ticket or one month of
>>> trips.
>>>
>>> So what will they do, lower the price of the single fare bought with
>>> debit/credit cards or not?
>>>
>>> Also, there is the issue of taking two or three buses in a single trip.
>>
>> Yes, these issues have also arisen here.
>> Before the system (with fare calculation by km) was introduced, we
>> had a zonal system where the fare would be determined by the number
>> of zones travelled through.
>
> Madrid has a zone system, that agrgates bus, metro (underground city
> train), and regular local trains under the same ticket. I'm unsure how
> the system works now, I mostly use the car except going to the city
> centre, and then I only take the metro, single zone - but I'm just at
> the border of the next zone, so going on the other direction is more
> expensive instantly.
>
>> A zone number is displayed at every
>> stop. This leads to funny situations where a short trip of 3 stops
>> could be 2 zones, while a longer trip of maybe 10 stops could be
>> 1 zone and thus much cheaper.
>
> Indeed.
>
>> I happen to live in an outskirt that
>> has the same zone as the city center, while there are also outskirts
>> that had a different zone.
>
> Exactly my situation when I'm in Madrid.
>
>> For me, the new system was much more
>> expensive as the number of km to the city center is relatively large
>> for me but it still was 1 zone, for others it was less expensive.
>>
>> And indeed the special tickets make it even more complicated.
>> For infrequent users it is also unclear at which points in the trip
>> you have to check out and back in again at the next bus. It depends
>> on the company operating the bus.
>
> Right.
>
> And on each city you need a training course...
>
>>
>>>> All of these systems have encountered resistance due to the fact that
>>>> the accounting company behind all this can (and does) keep an exact
>>>> log of all travels made by everyone.
>>>
>>> Ah... well, the dedicated card system also can do similarly - well,
>>> maybe not, the card in my city doesn't know my name or ID. But the
>>> monthly pass in Madrid does know my name.
>>
>> It is similar here. I have a card which I bought at and recharge
>> at a machine, in principle they do not know who I am. When I want
>> to use those special products I need to get a named card.
>> However, when I make a mistake (like forgetting to check out) and I
>> want my money back, I need to register the card to my name first...
>> People who regularly use the public transport of course always have
>> a registered card to get some discount or monthly pass, or because
>> they once made a mistake and want their 4 or 20 euro back.
>> (which is taken for bus or train journeys you did not check out)
>>
>
> Yep.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> Rob wrote
>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>>> On 9/12/2021 12:05 PM, Rob wrote:
>>>
>>>> Here, banks (and lots of other businesses) don't care at all about
>>>> existing customers. Only new customers are important.
>>>
>>> Existing customers often become someone's new customers if the wanted
>>> services are lacking...
>>
>> With the banking system as it is here, that is only a small risk.
>> It is so much effort to move everything to a new bank and new account
>> number, and the situation will be the same at that other bank.
>> So most customers stay at the same bank for life.
>>
>
> The other day I heard an advert from a bank saying that they would
> handle *all* the moving.

Yeah, ours do too, including the mortgage.

And its very easy to do it yourself too.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 9/13/2021 10:54 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 13/09/2021 19.44, sms wrote:
>>> On 9/13/2021 6:15 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> Another factor here against teenagers working is that they steal jobs
>>>> from grown ups supporting a family. The teenager may work for a little
>>>> money that can not pay the cost of living on his own, would be seen in
>>>> bad light, similar to paperless inmigrants. In a country where we have
>>>> close to 20% unemployment, that's important.
>>>
>>> I think that that's a big factor. In the U.S. many types of businesses
>>> depend on minimum wage, part-time, unbenefitted, teenage unskilled
>>> labor, i.e. fast-food, movie theaters, and retail stores.
>>
>> Oh, I remember noticing in Ottawa that often restaurant service was not
>> "professional" (compared to my country, Spain), being done by teenagers
>> mostly instead of seasoned professionals. They can be very willing,
>> certainly, but they lack experience.
>
> A lot of restaurants in my area, and not just fast food, have changed
> their systems to mitigate the employee shortage. Many have implemented
> online ordering, even when you're sitting at a table. Menus are often
> not provided since they'd have to clean them, so they put a QR code on
> the table and you scan it with your phone to see the menu. Some have
> eliminated waiter/waitress service and you order at a kiosk, or at the
> counter and pay then your food is either brought to your table or you
> pick it up. Menu choices have been pared back. Cash is discouraged and
> sometimes not accepted at all, though this is rare and almost no one
> pays cash anyway.

That happened here as well but I think it is more due to Covid rules
and procedures than due to employee shortage. There may be some
employee shortage because employees were temporarily layed off and
were not interested to come back, but also the restaurant owners
have to operate at lowest possible cost to cover their losses and
capacity reduction and cannot afford as many servants anymore.

On 2021-09-13 04:12, Rob wrote:

> Stamps do not even have their monetary value on them anymore, they
> are just "stamp for mailing a letter" because the price is increasing
> all the time (on the other hand that means you can save some money
> by keeping a stock).

The price of stamps goes up because of inflation.
So whether you bought stamps 5 years ago when your money was worth more,
or buy the stamps now when your money is worth less, it all washes out
in the end.
I buy rolls of 100 stamps. Last for years.

(Of course if you had inside knowledge that the price was about to go
up, that would be a different thing.)

--
"...there are many humorous things in this world; among them the white
man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
-Samuel Clemens

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> [1] That of course does not mean that we won't (have to?) use it when we
> go to some underdeveloped country outside Europe.

Just like credit cards!

Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote

> | >> Having a minor working is considered an abuse and the employer could
> be
> | >> jailed.
> | >
> | > Really?! No one can get a job before they're 18? Not even casual work?
> |
> | Really. One exception: kid actors, and with a strict regulation, they
> | can not miss classes. Means that a theatrical spectacle with two
> | sessions a day need double (or more) kid cast.
> |
> That's a good one. You can't mow lawns, but you can be in
> a movie where sex addicts get chopped to bits by a psychotic,
> pedophile Nazi. :)
>
>
> | It wasn't always this way. When I was a kid, the sons of a shop owner
> | would work there, albeit often for free. Learning the job. A pal of mine
> | worked as a waiter at the family hotel/restaurant, for free AFAIK. The
> | money went into the family pocket, being able to keep the hotel running.
> |
> | However, the culture was that if a minor worked, it meant that the
> | family was poor. Often it would be considered a disgrace and dishonour
> | to the family, if it was not the family business and, for example, mowed
> | the grass on the neighbourhood or waited at a restaurant.
> |
>
> I wonder if that's more a class thing? In the US, rich kids
> are likely to be making connections rather than working.
> They might spend their time doing things like sailing with other
> rich kids. There isn't an expectation that they'd ever be required
> to do actual labor.
>
> But for the average kid, a job is a way to be independent and
> learn about the idea of making their own living. My first job was
> at 13. I worked for old ladies, cleaning their houses and doing
> minor repairs. Then I had a paper route. Then McDonalds hired
> me. (Illegal, technically, because I wasn't quite 16. But work, in the
> US, is next to godliness. Any authorities who caught me would have
> thought I was a good kid with healthy ambition. The US has been
> heavily affected by Christian sexual perversion from both the Puritan
> and Catholic streams. If you're working you can't be masturbating
> or indulging in sensual pleasures.)

Tell that to an electrician in another group who fucks half the
women in the places he does work at.

> It seems to be different these days. The average kid is so spoiled
> that their phone, car and clothes are provided by their parents,
> well into adulthood, so they don't need to work.

Plenty still do. Most of those working in McDs are kids still in school.

> I'm getting to an age where I'd prefer to hire a teenager
> to shovel the driveway after big snowstorms, but there are
> fewer teenagers than there used to be and few of them work.

Still lots of kids doing baby sitting.

> That's become a topic lately, in the US, around COVID. Businesses
> are having a hard time getting help for low paying jobs. They blame
> the unemployment payments that people were getting during COVID.
> But the fact is that the jobs don't pay enough to survive. In an earlier
> time people took those jobs because it was that or starve. Or teenagers
> took them to make spending money. Now, the
> teenagers who might take the jobs don't want/need to work. The
> struggling poor might take them if they get desperate enough, but
> you can't pay for a $1,500/month studio apt plus food and bills on
> $400/week pay.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
> On 13/09/2021 14.28, Mayayana wrote:
>> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>>
>> | >> Having a minor working is considered an abuse and the employer could
>> be
>> | >> jailed.
>> | >
>> | > Really?! No one can get a job before they're 18? Not even casual
>> work?
>> |
>> | Really. One exception: kid actors, and with a strict regulation, they
>> | can not miss classes. Means that a theatrical spectacle with two
>> | sessions a day need double (or more) kid cast.
>> |
>> That's a good one. You can't mow lawns, but you can be in
>> a movie where sex addicts get chopped to bits by a psychotic,
>> pedophile Nazi. :)
>
> LOL
>
> I'm almost sure that children are mostly shielded from the actual
> content of the movie, and they find out years later what they really did
> :-D
>
>
>
>> | It wasn't always this way. When I was a kid, the sons of a shop owner
>> | would work there, albeit often for free. Learning the job. A pal of
>> mine
>> | worked as a waiter at the family hotel/restaurant, for free AFAIK. The
>> | money went into the family pocket, being able to keep the hotel
>> running.
>> |
>> | However, the culture was that if a minor worked, it meant that the
>> | family was poor. Often it would be considered a disgrace and dishonour
>> | to the family, if it was not the family business and, for example,
>> mowed
>> | the grass on the neighbourhood or waited at a restaurant.
>> |
>>
>> I wonder if that's more a class thing? In the US, rich kids
>> are likely to be making connections rather than working.
>> They might spend their time doing things like sailing with other
>> rich kids. There isn't an expectation that they'd ever be required
>> to do actual labor.
>>
>> But for the average kid, a job is a way to be independent and
>> learn about the idea of making their own living. My first job was
>> at 13. I worked for old ladies, cleaning their houses and doing
>> minor repairs. Then I had a paper route. Then McDonalds hired
>> me. (Illegal, technically, because I wasn't quite 16. But work, in the
>> US, is next to godliness. Any authorities who caught me would have
>> thought I was a good kid with healthy ambition. The US has been
>> heavily affected by Christian sexual perversion from both the Puritan
>> and Catholic streams. If you're working you can't be masturbating
>> or indulging in sensual pleasures.)
>
> I'm familiar with the reasoning in other countries.
>
> But the reasoning here when children work was allowed was that if the
> son was working, the father (no talk of the mother) was a useless man
> not able to support his family, it would be a shame on all of them.
> Worse if it was a girl.
>
> The exception was working on the family business: that was learning the
> family business.
>
> I remember when my mother, who was a teacher before marrying, wanted to
> go back to school when I was about 12 or 14, that my father was very
> angry and there were rows for the first time at home. And he was much
> more modern, tolerant and "European" than average, imagine a typical
> macho man.
>
> Years later, they were both happy about my mother decision, but at the
> time it was a problem.
>
> Neither of them would accept me having a job, "wasting time working at a
> job" instead of studying full time.
>
>
> Another factor here against teenagers working is that they steal jobs
> from grown ups supporting a family. The teenager may work for a little
> money that can not pay the cost of living on his own, would be seen in
> bad light, similar to paperless inmigrants. In a country where we have
> close to 20% unemployment, that's important.
>
>
> What is normal in a country can be bonkers in another country, and we
> have to accept that. Learn and accept the differences ;-)

Or realise that it makes no sense to ban kids from working.

There is a reason you lot have a 20% unemployment rate
and better organised countries don’t.

>> It seems to be different these days. The average kid is so spoiled
>> that their phone, car and clothes are provided by their parents,
>> well into adulthood, so they don't need to work. I'm getting to
>> an age where I'd prefer to hire a teenager to shovel the driveway
>> after big snowstorms, but there are fewer teenagers than there
>> used to be and few of them work.
>>
>> That's become a topic lately, in the US, around COVID. Businesses
>> are having a hard time getting help for low paying jobs. They blame
>> the unemployment payments that people were getting during COVID.
>> But the fact is that the jobs don't pay enough to survive. In an earlier
>> time people took those jobs because it was that or starve. Or teenagers
>> took them to make spending money. Now, the
>> teenagers who might take the jobs don't want/need to work. The
>> struggling poor might take them if they get desperate enough, but
>> you can't pay for a $1,500/month studio apt plus food and bills on
>> $400/week pay.

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>> >>>> Mobile wallet. What app is that one?
>> >>>
>> >>> no app needed, other than to initially add cards.
>> >>
>> >> Add where?
>> >
>> > to apple/google pay.
>> >
>> Ah, no, will use neither.
>
> any particular reason?

He's a dinosaur.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote
> On 9/13/2021 3:47 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Another neighbour can call the police, when he sees a kid mowing the
>> grass not at his home.
>
> That's un-American!

But very Spanish!!!

On 9/13/2021 11:53 AM, sms wrote:
> On 9/13/2021 10:41 AM, AJL wrote:

>> In my jurisdiction cops used to call them neighbor disputes...And
>> for the dumbest things.

> These still occur, and usually just a few residents are responsible
> for a large number of such calls, i.e. "my neighbor has a bunch of
> potted plants and they he put them too close to the property line."

In my current residence (a retirement community) they call the
HOA. I once got warning notice (with photo) for leaving my hose
connected to the faucet which is against the rules. But the old
neighborhood I left had no HOA and is now a ghetto so I don't mind
putting up with a little BS...