On 4/18/2022 12:15 PM, Mayayana wrote:
> "Frank Slootweg" <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote
>
> | All true, but I wasn't talking about cash, just about one kind of
> | electronic transaction versus another, credit(card) versus (in this case
> | direct) debit.
>
> Debit cards in the US have fees.

It's pretty rare that a merchant in the U.S. tries to charge a fee for
the use of a debit card (or a credit card for that matter). I've seen
debit card fees on occasion, but only a few times.

On 4/18/2022 12:18 PM, Mayayana wrote:
> "sms" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote
>
> | There's also the benefit to businesses is that customers tend to spend
> | more freely when they aren't paying cash. For some people, paying cash
> | for a $50 bottle of wine at a restaurant would be unthinkable, but when
> | it's on a credit card it's more palatable. Any credit card fee that the
> | restaurant is paying is lost in the noise with the 200-400% markup on
> | alcohol.
>
> I'm beginning to think yu must work for a credit
> card company. It seems they do just about anything except
> maybe removing grass stains from pants. :)

No, use Tide to Go for that
<https://tide.com/en-us/shop/type/stain-remover/tide-to-go>.

On 4/18/2022 12:30 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>> "Frank Slootweg" <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote
>>
>> | All true, but I wasn't talking about cash, just about one kind of
>> | electronic transaction versus another, credit(card) versus (in this case
>> | direct) debit.
>>
>> Debit cards in the US have fees.
>
> I rest my case! :-)
>
> (Well, as I mentioned to sms, the actual discussion was a US credit
> card payment (of car insurance) versus a EU/NL direct debit (Dutch
> 'incasso') payment (of same).)

Except that debit cards almost never have fees in the U.S..

Very very rarely you'll run across a merchant that wants to charge a fee
for debit card use, typically 25-50 cents.

Debit card fees used to be common at one chain of gas stations (Arco)
who used to not take credit cards. They finally abandoned the "no credit
card" policy since it was causing too many lost sales, reduced
throughput of vehicles, and increased personnel costs. They do have a
higher price for gas if you use a credit card, but the difference is
much less than the amount you get back in credit card cash-back.

Last time I was in Europe physical credit card use was not very common,
most people were paying with their phones, usually Google Pay,
occasionally Apple Pay.

"Frank Slootweg" <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote

| > Debit cards in the US have fees.
| | I rest my case! :-)
|

No fees at all for anyone? That makes sense, since it
saves work for both businesses and banks. In the US it
started out as 65 cents charged to the customer. No one
used the cards. So they switched to a charge against
the merchant. Everyone now uses the cards, even to buy
coffee or soda. The banks are making a fortune for doing
almost nothing. They like it so much that they made ATMs
more expensive and checks very expensive. (I don't pay
to write a check, but I'm now paying a signfiant fee to
have checks printed.)

Merchants don't dare refuse debit cards. Customers
can't be bothered to understand how idiotic it all is, so long
as they're not explicitly paying.

This is what AJL proudly refers to as "capitalism". But it's
not that. It's simply barbaric king-of-the-hill applied to
business. The American way.

In article <t3kivb$j2p$1@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
<mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> (I don't pay
> to write a check, but I'm now paying a signfiant fee to
> have checks printed.)

use online bill pay. it's free.

payments are sent electronically in nearly every case, which is faster
and more reliable, but if that's not possible because the merchant
doesn't accept ach payments, the bank will print a check and pay for
postage to send it, at no extra cost.

On 4/18/2022 1:51 PM, Mayayana wrote:
> "Frank Slootweg" <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote
>
> | > Debit cards in the US have fees.
> |
> | I rest my case! :-)
> |
>
> No fees at all for anyone? That makes sense, since it
> saves work for both businesses and banks. In the US it
> started out as 65 cents charged to the customer. No one
> used the cards. So they switched to a charge against
> the merchant. Everyone now uses the cards, even to buy
> coffee or soda. The banks are making a fortune for doing
> almost nothing. They like it so much that they made ATMs
> more expensive and checks very expensive. (I don't pay
> to write a check, but I'm now paying a signfiant fee to
> have checks printed.)
>
> Merchants don't dare refuse debit cards. Customers
> can't be bothered to understand how idiotic it all is, so long
> as they're not explicitly paying.

In San Francisco, so many merchants were no longer accepting cash that
the City passed a law that requires merchants to accept cash, except in
certain circumstances. Mobile businesses like food trucks are not
required to accept cash because it would be an unreasonable burden on
their operation. See
<https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/san_francisco/latest/sf_police/0-0-0-51315>.

In my own city, the only time I encountered "no cash" was at the cafe
inside the new Apple "Spaceship." You order from a kiosk with a iPad and
use Apple Pay with your iPhone. There is no employee to take food
orders, there is no cashier, and there is no debit or credit card reader
(I suspect that an NFC contactless credit card would work). The other
place I go to that doesn't take cash is Costco gas stations.

The savings to businesses in terms of reduced staffing requirements
dwarf any bank fees for credit or debit cards. Not to mention no more
bad checks, no counterfeit bills, no miscounting of change, no employee
theft, no trips to the bank to deposit cash and obtain coins and small
denomination currency, the list goes on and on.

Lately, with the shortage of workers, more stores have put in large
numbers of self-checkout stations (Walmart, Lowes, Whole Foods, Target,
Safeway, etc.). Restaurants encourage you to order, and then pay, with
your phone, from your table. It's "do I hire another staff member, at
$20 per hour plus benefits, or do I give up $1 on a $50 tab?"

Without the savings that businesses realize from electronic payments
they'd have to raise prices or go out of business. The minimum wage in
my city is $16.40 per hour and the next city over is at $17.10. Even at
those levels, businesses have to pay over minimum wage to get workers.
We lost one really good fast food chain because their franchise
agreement forbade them from paying workers more than minimum wage and
the next city over, which has a 70 cents per hour higher minimum wage,
was able to hire the limited pool of available workers.

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <t3k936$60n$1@dont-email.me>, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> And managing and paying and keeping track of your Apple Card is a whole
>>> lot easier than any other card.
>>
>> Which is not available outside of the US.
>
> yet.

Maybe never. Particularly in the EU/UK.

On 4/18/2022 2:59 PM, Chris wrote:
> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> In article <t3k936$60n$1@dont-email.me>, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> And managing and paying and keeping track of your Apple Card is a whole
>>>> lot easier than any other card.
>>>
>>> Which is not available outside of the US.
>>
>> yet.
>
> Maybe never. Particularly in the EU/UK.

Who knows. Right now, given the market share of the iPhone in Europe,
and given the cap on fees, it's hard to imagine it becoming available in
the EU, but in the UK the iPhone has about 50% market share and due to
Brexit there's no longer a 0.5% cap on credit card fees.

In article <t3kn05$f8p$1@dont-email.me>, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
wrote:

> >>> And managing and paying and keeping track of your Apple Card is a whole
> >>> lot easier than any other card.
> >>
> >> Which is not available outside of the US.
> >
> > yet.
>
> Maybe never. Particularly in the EU/UK.

<https://9to5mac.com/2022/03/23/uk-apple-card-credit-kudos/>
Brits have been wondering when we might see a UK Apple Card ever
since the US launch back in 2019. A new report today suggests that
the company may now be preparing the ground.

Apple has acquired a UK startup company which takes a new approach
to assessing the credit-worthiness of finance applicants Š

In article <t3knse$ntf$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> >>>> And managing and paying and keeping track of your Apple Card is a whole
> >>>> lot easier than any other card.
> >>>
> >>> Which is not available outside of the US.
> >>
> >> yet.
> >
> > Maybe never. Particularly in the EU/UK.
>
> Who knows.

not you.

> Right now, given the market share of the iPhone in Europe,
> and given the cap on fees, it's hard to imagine it becoming available in
> the EU,

that has little to do with whether it will be offered there, but in any
event, iphone share in the eu is quite strong, although it varies per
country.

On 4/18/2022 1:51 PM, Mayayana wrote:

> Everyone now uses the cards, even to buy coffee or soda.

Yup. No returned change hassle.

> The banks are making a fortune for doing almost nothing.

True. My credit unions (2) in which the depositors are also owners have
both had a good year and have paid me several hundred dollars in owner
(not stock) dividends.

> They like it so much that they made ATMs more expensive

All the credit unions, not just the one's I belong to, in my area have
made an agreement that their depositors can use any of their ATMs for FREE.

> and checks very expensive. (I don't pay to write a check, but I'm
> now paying a significant fee to have checks printed.)

I don't write that many checks anymore. I put a check under the mat for
the yard guy and some of the grandkids/greatgrandkids get birthday
checks. So 10 bucks for new checks every 10 years or so doesn't break me...

> Merchants don't dare refuse debit cards. Customers can't be bothered
> to understand how idiotic it all is, so long as they're not
> explicitly paying.

It's just a service. If a store doesn't provide a service its customers
want it loses customers (and money).

> This is what AJL proudly refers to as "capitalism".

Yup. Beats socialism in so many ways...

> But it's not that. It's simply barbaric king-of-the-hill applied to
> business.

Business has always been that way.

> The American way.

Wouldn't want to live anywhere else...

"sms" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote

| Lately, with the shortage of workers, more stores have put in large
| numbers of self-checkout stations (Walmart, Lowes, Whole Foods, Target,
| Safeway, etc.).

Yes, all big stores I go to now have those lanes. Though as
far as I know they all accept cash. It's just that you have to
deal with a computer and bag yourself. But I'm not cetain. I've
never used one. There was one time recently that I went into
a fairly new supermarket and found no one at either of the two
human checkouts. (There are maybe a dozen computer checkouts.)
So I left the pint of ice cream on the counter and walked out.
I'm not going to use a computer checkout -- regardless of whether
it takes cash. They're not even offering a discount for my labor!

I've noticed, too, that newer supermarkets are adding more
pre-prepared foods. This particular store is the closest to me.
3 blocks. But I never shop there. They're more expensive than
Whole Foods. Their produce is poor quality. Their selection of fresh
food is limited. The entire center of the store is filled with
pre-prepared options. Then they also have a drugstore section.
It's actually more like a 24-hour-store than a supermarket. They're
aiming for people who need a few things and don't care about cost.
That's not about surviving costs. It's about gouging customers
in calculated ways to maximize profits.

I think that what all of that points to is strategies to maximize
profits with no longterm plan. Home Depot is similar in the way
they sell low quality and discontinue product lines on a whim.
Drugstore chains, similarly, let the computer order stock and have
gradually, also, turned to impulse sales. They've eliminated most
basic products, replacing the likes of alcohol, peroxide, or witch
hazel with high-margin brand-name products. Bandages? They
come in a boutique box with llimited sizes. You can also buy a
USB stick or a lightbulb, but be ready for sticker shock. The
computer is calculating what they can get away with.

Computer software is calculating profit margins. No doubt
automated checkout is a factor in that, but I just don't buy your
idea that cashless must be the future to avoid going broke. That
makes no sense.

"AJL" <noemail@none.com> wrote

| > This is what AJL proudly refers to as "capitalism".
| | Yup. Beats socialism in so many ways...
| | > But it's not that. It's simply barbaric king-of-the-hill applied to
| > business.
| | Business has always been that way.
|

Speak for yourself.
Capitalism just means that property and the means of
production are privately owned. So many people think it
means no rules and no ethics necessary. We actually have
all sorts of regulations on how people can operate a business.
The restaurant you go to is subject to health inspections,
for example. The capitalism part is that the owner can own
the restaurant and make the profits. But there's OSHA, board
of health, Social Security, sewage treatment regulations,
exhaust fan regulations, building regulations, zoning regulations...
and many others forcing him to conduct his business with
some degree of humanity.

I own my own business and I've never cheated or exploited
people. I don't charge what I can get away with. They're my
customers. And I care about ethics, for my own sake. Virtue
really is its own reward. Only savages treat their loved ones
well while throwing out ethics when it comes to strangers.
Unfortunately, you wouldn't be able to benefit from my
honesty, integrity and high quality of work. I don't take credit
cards. :)

"sms" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote

| > Debit cards in the US have fees.
| | It's pretty rare that a merchant in the U.S. tries to charge a fee for
| the use of a debit card (or a credit card for that matter). I've seen
| debit card fees on occasion, but only a few times.

I think I posted this above. Debit cards have fees from the
banks, just like credit cards. It's a complicated system that
I don't claim to understand. But long story short, banks have
managed to convince dimwits that cash is scary and as a result
the banks are collecting superfluous middleman fees on nearly
every transaction these days because, as you say, many
people don't want to use cash. I guess the solution is to
think like AJL and buy stock in Bank of America and Wells
Fargo. They've got a racket going that's better than Bill
gates's PC tax.

On 4/18/2022 5:36 PM, Mayayana wrote:
> "sms" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote
>
> | > Debit cards in the US have fees.
> |
> | It's pretty rare that a merchant in the U.S. tries to charge a fee for
> | the use of a debit card (or a credit card for that matter). I've seen
> | debit card fees on occasion, but only a few times.
>
> I think I posted this above. Debit cards have fees from the
> banks, just like credit cards. It's a complicated system that
> I don't claim to understand. But long story short, banks have
> managed to convince dimwits that cash is scary and as a result
> the banks are collecting superfluous middleman fees on nearly
> every transaction these days because, as you say, many
> people don't want to use cash. I guess the solution is to
> think like AJL and buy stock in Bank of America and Wells
> Fargo. They've got a racket going that's better than Bill
> gates's PC tax.

It's not just the consumers that don't want to use cash, the stores
don't want you to use it either. They have determined that the cost of
accepting cash exceeds the cost of electronic payments.

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote

>>>> And managing and paying and keeping track of your Apple Card is a
>>>> whole
>>>> lot easier than any other card.

>>> Which is not available outside of the US.

>> yet.

> Maybe never. Particularly in the EU/UK.

Unlikely to never happen even in the EU/UK.

On 2022-04-18, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>> On 4/18/2022 11:32 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> > All true, but I wasn't talking about cash, just about one kind of
>> > electronic transaction versus another, credit(card) versus (in this case
>> > direct) debit.
>>
>> Debit cards are about the worst way to pay for stuff but some people
>> can't qualify for a credit card.

Debit cards are great for those who want/need "cash back" & that is
usually available at supermarkets checkout. I stopped the need when
the hair cut place I go to accepted credit/debit cards.

>
> Sigh! This was about US creditcard versus EU/NL direct debit. EU/NL
> direct debit and debit cards are quite different from that/those in the
> US.
>
> Back to *your* point, in EU/NL, most card transactions are via debit
> cards, not credit cards, as credit cards offer little advantage for
> either party and carry more risks.

Credit cards do offer a huge advantage when buying a big ticket item
& you don't want to carry a few thousands of dollars. Or when one
doesn't have the cash available. Considering the national credit
card debt in the USA, many people have gone the credit card payment
way.

Another advantage of credit card payments is that some/many cc isuers
have an implied(?) warranty extension & can stop payment if you felt
that you got ripped off.

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:10:49 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 4/18/2022 5:36 PM, Mayayana wrote:
>> "sms" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote
>>
>> | > Debit cards in the US have fees.
>> |
>> | It's pretty rare that a merchant in the U.S. tries to charge a fee for
>> | the use of a debit card (or a credit card for that matter). I've seen
>> | debit card fees on occasion, but only a few times.
>>
>> I think I posted this above. Debit cards have fees from the
>> banks, just like credit cards. It's a complicated system that
>> I don't claim to understand. But long story short, banks have
>> managed to convince dimwits that cash is scary and as a result
>> the banks are collecting superfluous middleman fees on nearly
>> every transaction these days because, as you say, many
>> people don't want to use cash. I guess the solution is to
>> think like AJL and buy stock in Bank of America and Wells
>> Fargo. They've got a racket going that's better than Bill
>> gates's PC tax.
>
>It's not just the consumers that don't want to use cash, the stores
>don't want you to use it either. They have determined that the cost of
>accepting cash exceeds the cost of electronic payments.

Years ago, when "credit cards" were not that commonly used, I read an
article which pointed out that it costs banks and other financial
activities a lot of money to handle cash and that credit cards,
disregarding any interest charges, actually saved the issuing agency,
usually a bank, considerable money and it is no different now.
--
Cheers,

John B.

In article <t3l06q$86m$1@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
<mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> | > Debit cards in the US have fees.
> |
> | It's pretty rare that a merchant in the U.S. tries to charge a fee for
> | the use of a debit card (or a credit card for that matter). I've seen
> | debit card fees on occasion, but only a few times.
>
> I think I posted this above. Debit cards have fees from the
> banks, just like credit cards.

debit and credit cards have transaction fees, which are paid by the
merchant, but unlike credit cards, debit card fees are capped (durbin,
2010), which is why almost every debit card no longer offers rewards.
a few do, but usually applies for a limited amount of purchases per
month.

> It's a complicated system that
> I don't claim to understand.

it's not that complicated.

In article <t3l26p$hld$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>
> It's not just the consumers that don't want to use cash, the stores
> don't want you to use it either.

they don't care, as long as they get paid.

> They have determined that the cost of
> accepting cash exceeds the cost of electronic payments.

if the cost of accepting cash exceeded the cost of electronic payments,
then merchants would not (and could not) offer a *discount* for using
cash.

On 4/18/2022 5:33 PM, Mayayana wrote:
> "AJL" <noemail@none.com> wrote
>> Mayayana wrote:

>>> It's [capitalism] simply barbaric king-of-the-hill applied to
>>> business.

>> Business has always been that way.

> Speak for yourself. Capitalism just means that property and the
> means of production are privately owned.

Capitalism: an economic and political system in which a country's trade
and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by
the state.

> So many people think it means no rules and no ethics necessary.

And many don't. A poorly run business that screws its customers won't
survive long. Folks aren't as dumb as you think...

> We actually have all sorts of regulations on how people can operate
> a business. The restaurant you go to is subject to health
> inspections, for example. The capitalism part is that the owner can
> own the restaurant and make the profits. But there's OSHA, board of
> health, Social Security, sewage treatment regulations, exhaust fan
> regulations, building regulations, zoning regulations... and many
> others forcing him to conduct his business with some degree of
> humanity.

Yup. All government stuff that INCREASES prices.

> I own my own business and I've never cheated or exploited people.

Neither do most businesses that take credit cards. If they did the
customers would go elsewhere in our (US) free market.

> I don't charge what I can get away with. They're my customers.

Neither do most businesses that take credit cards. Target sells thumb
drives for $12 (US) BTW. How's that for gouging customers...

> And I care about ethics, for my own sake. Virtue really is its own
> reward. Only savages treat their loved ones well while throwing out
> ethics when it comes to strangers.

Amen brother (Choir singing in the background.)

> Unfortunately, you wouldn't be able to benefit from my honesty,
> integrity and high quality of work. I don't take credit cards. :)

I do carry a couple of hundred bucks (gasp) cash for emergencies so I
suppose I could shop at your establishment but I really have no need for
buggy whips... ;)

In message <180420221225280777%nospam@nospam.invalid> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> what they do is offer a *discount* from the standard price for those
> who choose to use cash.

i haven't seen a "cash discount" on a gas station in years an years. 15
years? 20? Something like that.

>> Independent restaurants will often offer a cash discount.

> extremely rarely. they might ignore coins when giving change, but
> that's about it.

And despite sms saying this many times, I've still never seen it.

> there are also businesses that only accept cash.

Fewer and fewer though. 20 years ago there were quite a few businesses
that were cash only, but all of those are no longer cash only. The fact
is most people do not carry cash, either at all or very little.

> the cost to handle cash is *less* than for credit cards, which is why
> the prices are sometimes discounted.

If you ignore some of the costs, yes.

When I managed a restaurant balancing the cash at the end of the night
took about an hour on average, this included bundling the cash and
'tubing' the coins and filling out the bank deposit. That hour was an
unaccounted cost of taking cash.

In addition, there was a safe in the store to hold the cash during the
day. Another unaccounted cost. (Commercial time-lock safes are very
expensive and require expensive maintenance and repairs.).

During the day, an employee was sent to the bank to make the previous
day's deposit. Another unaccounted cost, not to mention a considerable
risk which is yet another unaccounted cost.

--
I hope this email finds you Living in a shotgun shack
I hope this email finds you In another part of the world
I hope this email finds you Behind the wheel of a large automobile

"sms" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote

| It's not just the consumers that don't want to use cash, the stores
| don't want you to use it either. They have determined that the cost of
| accepting cash exceeds the cost of electronic payments.

I understand that you very much want to believe that.
I'm not sure why. But you clearly have yourself convinced.
I expect it varies quite a bit, depending on the business.

"sms" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote

| It's not just the consumers that don't want to use cash, the stores
| don't want you to use it either. They have determined that the cost of
| accepting cash exceeds the cost of electronic payments.

I got curious about this and looked it up.

https://www.fundera.com/resources/cash-vs-credit-card-spending-statistics
80% of people prefer cards. 2/3 of card purchases are debit. [2020]

https://spendmenot.com/blog/cash-vs-credit-card-spending-statistics/
59% prefer cards. 28% of all payments are debit. [2021]

Very different numbers, but it might just be sloppiness. The second
link says about 1/5 of transactions are cash. The first link seems
to be saying the same thing but assuming it's all by preference.
Another site said 30% of all transactions were cash in 2017.

https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/227107 [2013]
72% of businesses prefer cash or check.

8 reasons why restaurants prefer cash:
https://www.thedailymeal.com/eat/why-do-some-restaurants-make-you-pay-cash

And all of this varies by country as well as by age. It's surprisingly
hard to pin down exact numbers.

"AJL" <noemail@none.com> wrote

| I do carry a couple of hundred bucks (gasp) cash for emergencies so I
| suppose I could shop at your establishment but I really have no need for
| buggy whips... ;)

:) As I've been saying, much of this is motivated by an
irrational belief that cash is outdated and that new is better
by definition. I once had a friend who was an MD. He liked
to scorn others by saying, "Ah, that's analog!" He understood
nothing of computers, and this was in the 80s, but he did
understand that the popular fad was to be wowed by new
gizmos. And he understood that old gizmos were referred to
as analog -- and that was bad.

I'm repeatedly reminded of an ancient Sears catalog reprint
I once saw. They carried "electric vests", full of wires. As
everyone knew, electricity was new and magical. So naturally
an electric vest could cure all ills. They probably don't sell them
anymore, but you might be able to get an NFT cartoon GIF of
such a vest... And I'm sure you can charge it, or even buy it
with crypto. Tres modern.