In article <jrm31ix4um.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> >> Really?! No one can get a job before they're 18? Not even casual work?
> >
> > Not sure about the legality of kids mowing lawns for money (my 10-YO
> > cousin made a bundle doing that 60 years ago!) but if you pay the kid in
> > cash there's no functional way of preventing it.
>
> Another neighbour can call the police, when he sees a kid mowing the
> grass not at his home.

it must be nice to live in a place where there's no crime and the
police have time to arrest teenagers cutting their neighbor's grass.

On 13/09/2021 14.28, Mayayana wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>
> | >> Having a minor working is considered an abuse and the employer could be
> | >> jailed.
> | >
> | > Really?! No one can get a job before they're 18? Not even casual work?
> |
> | Really. One exception: kid actors, and with a strict regulation, they
> | can not miss classes. Means that a theatrical spectacle with two
> | sessions a day need double (or more) kid cast.
> |
> That's a good one. You can't mow lawns, but you can be in
> a movie where sex addicts get chopped to bits by a psychotic,
> pedophile Nazi. :)

LOL

I'm almost sure that children are mostly shielded from the actual
content of the movie, and they find out years later what they really did :-D

> | It wasn't always this way. When I was a kid, the sons of a shop owner
> | would work there, albeit often for free. Learning the job. A pal of mine
> | worked as a waiter at the family hotel/restaurant, for free AFAIK. The
> | money went into the family pocket, being able to keep the hotel running.
> |
> | However, the culture was that if a minor worked, it meant that the
> | family was poor. Often it would be considered a disgrace and dishonour
> | to the family, if it was not the family business and, for example, mowed
> | the grass on the neighbourhood or waited at a restaurant.
> |
>
> I wonder if that's more a class thing? In the US, rich kids
> are likely to be making connections rather than working.
> They might spend their time doing things like sailing with other
> rich kids. There isn't an expectation that they'd ever be required
> to do actual labor.
>
> But for the average kid, a job is a way to be independent and
> learn about the idea of making their own living. My first job was
> at 13. I worked for old ladies, cleaning their houses and doing
> minor repairs. Then I had a paper route. Then McDonalds hired
> me. (Illegal, technically, because I wasn't quite 16. But work, in the
> US, is next to godliness. Any authorities who caught me would have
> thought I was a good kid with healthy ambition. The US has been
> heavily affected by Christian sexual perversion from both the Puritan
> and Catholic streams. If you're working you can't be masturbating
> or indulging in sensual pleasures.)

I'm familiar with the reasoning in other countries.

But the reasoning here when children work was allowed was that if the
son was working, the father (no talk of the mother) was a useless man
not able to support his family, it would be a shame on all of them.
Worse if it was a girl.

The exception was working on the family business: that was learning the
family business.

I remember when my mother, who was a teacher before marrying, wanted to
go back to school when I was about 12 or 14, that my father was very
angry and there were rows for the first time at home. And he was much
more modern, tolerant and "European" than average, imagine a typical
macho man.

Years later, they were both happy about my mother decision, but at the
time it was a problem.

Neither of them would accept me having a job, "wasting time working at a
job" instead of studying full time.

Another factor here against teenagers working is that they steal jobs
from grown ups supporting a family. The teenager may work for a little
money that can not pay the cost of living on his own, would be seen in
bad light, similar to paperless inmigrants. In a country where we have
close to 20% unemployment, that's important.

What is normal in a country can be bonkers in another country, and we
have to accept that. Learn and accept the differences ;-)

>
> It seems to be different these days. The average kid is so spoiled
> that their phone, car and clothes are provided by their parents,
> well into adulthood, so they don't need to work. I'm getting to
> an age where I'd prefer to hire a teenager to shovel the driveway
> after big snowstorms, but there are fewer teenagers than there
> used to be and few of them work.
>
> That's become a topic lately, in the US, around COVID. Businesses
> are having a hard time getting help for low paying jobs. They blame
> the unemployment payments that people were getting during COVID.
> But the fact is that the jobs don't pay enough to survive. In an earlier
> time people took those jobs because it was that or starve. Or teenagers
> took them to make spending money. Now, the
> teenagers who might take the jobs don't want/need to work. The
> struggling poor might take them if they get desperate enough, but
> you can't pay for a $1,500/month studio apt plus food and bills on
> $400/week pay.
>
>

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 13/09/2021 15.13, nospam wrote:
> In article <sql31ixjcm.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>> Mobile wallet. What app is that one?
>
> no app needed, other than to initially add cards.

Add where?

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

In article <eb041ix83r.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> >>
> >> Mobile wallet. What app is that one?
> >
> > no app needed, other than to initially add cards.
>
> Add where?

to apple/google pay.

On 13/09/2021 15.13, nospam wrote:
> In article <jrm31ix4um.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>> Really?! No one can get a job before they're 18? Not even casual work?
>>>
>>> Not sure about the legality of kids mowing lawns for money (my 10-YO
>>> cousin made a bundle doing that 60 years ago!) but if you pay the kid in
>>> cash there's no functional way of preventing it.
>>
>> Another neighbour can call the police, when he sees a kid mowing the
>> grass not at his home.
>
> it must be nice to live in a place where there's no crime and the
> police have time to arrest teenagers cutting their neighbor's grass.

LOL

I know places where neighbours may call the police when they see a black
person enter an expensive house in a white neighbourhood or drive an
expensive car :-P

No, the teenager would not be arrested, but his data would be
registered, and the employer fined, at least.

And yes, our crime rate is lower, and our ratio police/people is bigger.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 13/09/2021 15.38, nospam wrote:
> In article <eb041ix83r.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>> Mobile wallet. What app is that one?
>>>
>>> no app needed, other than to initially add cards.
>>
>> Add where?
>
> to apple/google pay.
>
Ah, no, will use neither.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 13/09/2021 at 15:17, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 13/09/2021 15.38, nospam wrote:
>> In article <eb041ix83r.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mobile wallet. What app is that one?
>>>>
>>>> no app needed, other than to initially add cards.
>>>
>>> Add where?
>>
>> to apple/google pay.
>>
> Ah, no, will use neither.
>

A pity - you are missing out on a really excellent payment facility.
Over the past 18 months or so, I have used cash two or three times and
for hundreds of contactless transactions I have not had to use a credit
card even once, because I could and did always use Apple Pay.

--
Wilf

In article <45341ixg6s.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> >>>> Mobile wallet. What app is that one?
> >>>
> >>> no app needed, other than to initially add cards.
> >>
> >> Add where?
> >
> > to apple/google pay.
> >
> Ah, no, will use neither.

any particular reason?

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
[...]

> One of the things that they are testing here is, as bank branches and
> ATMs are disappearing from villages, deliver cash to old people in
> villages that request it.

Here (Rob's and my country) they sometimes have a sort of shuttle
services to bring people to the ATM/bank or/and have mobile banks, i.e.
a branch office in a van.

We used to live in a small village. Over time the bank closed and
later there wasn't even an ATM and we had to travel about 5km to another
town. Then they also - effectively - stopped the bus service, so bike,
very long walk or car. That gave a big uproar, so they brought back the
ATM. (Now there are probably two or three.)

Now we live in a - for NL - big city, but also here one of my banks
only has *one* branch office in the whole city. And that's for a major
bank! :-( ATM are also scarce and being removed without any new ones.

For us it's not major problem, but it is for many (not so) 'old'
people who can't or don't want to use Internet banking or/and electronic
payment.

> The obvious job they do here is also deliver parcels.

On 9/13/2021 1:12 AM, Rob wrote:

> When there aren't many customers coming in, it is not economically
> viable to have a post office.

Perhaps that's the difference. When I moved to the city as a kid 70+
years ago the population was 100K. Now it's 1.6 million. When I later
moved to one of its suburbs (21 years ago) its population was 30K. Now
it's getting near 100K and growing still faster. With lots of new
customers available, so follows the post office (and bank) services.

> Now we have some desks at stores (supermarket, bookstore) for postal
> services where you can buy stamps and handover letters or packages,

Same here.

> and you can order stamps online either physically or as a barcode
> that you can print on a label and use to mail a letter or postcard.

Same here.

> Stamps do not even have their monetary value on them anymore, they
> are just "stamp for mailing a letter" because the price is
> increasing all the time (on the other hand that means you can save
> some money by keeping a stock).

Same here. We call them Forever Stamps.

> I think the postal system will go the same way as the steam
> locomotive and the tow barge. Things that were established when
> there was a demand, and phased out when the demand ceased.

Nah. Junk mail will support them.

On 9/13/2021 1:02 AM, Rob wrote:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>> On 9/12/2021 12:05 PM, Rob wrote:

>>> Here, banks (and lots of other businesses) don't care at all
>>> about existing customers. Only new customers are important.

>> Existing customers often become someone's new customers if the
>> wanted services are lacking...

Wells Fargo is an example of a US bank with services lacking including
fraud on the customer - Google it if curious.

> With the banking system as it is here, that is only a small risk. It
> is so much effort to move everything to a new bank and new account
> number, and the situation will be the same at that other bank. So
> most customers stay at the same bank for life.

Many banks here advertise their rates and services often. (Some
in my junk mail.) I doubt they'd waste their money if the ads weren't
effective at drawing in new customers. Bank competition is a
good thing for the customer. Competitive cashback credit card rates for
example...

On 13/09/2021 17:16, AJL wrote:
> On 9/13/2021 1:02 AM, Rob wrote:
>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>>> On 9/12/2021 12:05 PM, Rob wrote:
>
>>>> Here, banks (and lots of other businesses) don't care at all
>>>> about existing customers. Only new customers are important.
>
>>> Existing customers often become someone's new customers if the
>>> wanted services are lacking...
>
> Wells Fargo is an example of a US bank with services lacking including
> fraud on the customer - Google it if curious.
>
>> With the banking system as it is here, that is only a small risk. It
>> is so much effort to move everything to a new bank and new account
>> number, and the situation will be the same at that other bank. So
>> most customers stay at the same bank for life.
>
> Many banks here advertise their rates and services often. (Some
> in my junk mail.) I doubt they'd waste their money if the ads weren't
> effective at drawing in new customers. Bank competition is a
> good thing for the customer. Competitive cashback credit card rates for
> example...

Here we have a Switch service to simplify the move from one bank to
another. Basically, you sign up with the new bank and they do the rest
incl. transferring direct debits, standing orders and any account
balance. It's guaranteed and takes 7 working days.
https://www.currentaccountswitch.co.uk/Pages/Home.aspx

I move banks regularly to take advantage of sign-on bonuses. In fact am
in the middle of one for £125.

On 13/09/2021 16:14, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
>
>> One of the things that they are testing here is, as bank branches and
>> ATMs are disappearing from villages, deliver cash to old people in
>> villages that request it.
>
> Here (Rob's and my country) they sometimes have a sort of shuttle
> services to bring people to the ATM/bank or/and have mobile banks, i.e.
> a branch office in a van.

They do this in the Highlands of Scotland as well. The villages are too
remote to warrant an actual bank branch. They used to do most services
in the van, but nowadays I think they're most tech support to help
people use internet/mobile banking.

> We used to live in a small village. Over time the bank closed and
> later there wasn't even an ATM and we had to travel about 5km to another
> town. Then they also - effectively - stopped the bus service, so bike,
> very long walk or car. That gave a big uproar, so they brought back the
> ATM. (Now there are probably two or three.)
>
> Now we live in a - for NL - big city, but also here one of my banks
> only has *one* branch office in the whole city. And that's for a major
> bank! :-( ATM are also scarce and being removed without any new ones.
>
> For us it's not major problem, but it is for many (not so) 'old'
> people who can't or don't want to use Internet banking or/and electronic
> payment.
>
>> The obvious job they do here is also deliver parcels.

On 9/13/2021 7:49 AM, Wilf wrote:
> On 13/09/2021 at 15:17, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 13/09/2021 15.38, nospam wrote:
>>> In article <eb041ix83r.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mobile wallet. What app is that one?
>>>>>
>>>>> no app needed, other than to initially add cards.
>>>>
>>>> Add where?
>>>
>>> to apple/google pay.
>>>
>> Ah, no, will use neither.
>>
>
> A pity - you are missing out on a really excellent payment facility.
> Over the past 18 months or so, I have used cash two or three times and
> for hundreds of contactless transactions I have not had to use a credit
> card even once, because I could and did always use Apple Pay.

I have had to use a physical card at places that don't yet accept mobile
payments, like Home Depot, Lowe's, and Walmart, where they've managed to
disable Samsung Pay with MST (simulates a credit card's magnetic strip).
A couple of times a month I'll run across a business that takes only
Samsung Pay, and invariably the cashier will see me putting my phone
next to the terminal and ask "is that Samsung Pay?"

The large chain stores that have decided to not accept mobile wallet
don't like the fact that you get more privacy with mobile wallet
obfuscating the card details from them so they can't extract data to
sell to marketing firms.

On 9/13/2021 3:47 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

<snip>

> Another neighbour can call the police, when he sees a kid mowing the
> grass not at his home.

That's un-American!

On 13/09/2021 16.52, nospam wrote:
> In article <45341ixg6s.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>>>> Mobile wallet. What app is that one?
>>>>>
>>>>> no app needed, other than to initially add cards.
>>>>
>>>> Add where?
>>>
>>> to apple/google pay.
>>>
>> Ah, no, will use neither.
>
> any particular reason?
>

I don't have apples, and I don't like gugle on this thing.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 9/13/2021 10:11 AM, sms wrote:
> On 9/13/2021 3:47 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

>> Another neighbour can call the police, when he sees a kid mowing
>> the grass not at his home.
>
> That's un-American!

In my jurisdiction we used to call them neighbor disputes. We had a
unique police radio code for them which I don't remember now. I've been
retired for 31 years so things have likely changed a bit anyway. But we
sure used to get a LOT of calls for them. And for the dumbest things.
Like family fights they were mostly (but not always) civil in nature but
police responded anyway to try to keep the peace. So neighbors calling
the cops to complain about neighbors was definitely an American pastime...

On 9/13/2021 6:15 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

<snip>

> Another factor here against teenagers working is that they steal jobs
> from grown ups supporting a family. The teenager may work for a little
> money that can not pay the cost of living on his own, would be seen in
> bad light, similar to paperless inmigrants. In a country where we have
> close to 20% unemployment, that's important.

I think that that's a big factor. In the U.S. many types of businesses
depend on minimum wage, part-time, unbenefitted, teenage unskilled
labor, i.e. fast-food, movie theaters, and retail stores.

There's a big labor shortage in the U.S. so in some areas minimum wage
is no longer even applicable, fast food places in my area are paying
well over the already high minimum wage set by cities, see
<https://www.mv-voice.com/news/2021/01/03/mixed-reactions-accompany-south-bay-minimum-wage-increases>.

Restaurants in my area have also been hurt by full-time workers taking
jobs in corporate food service where they get better wages, benefits,
and work less weekends. It's a lot better for a food service worker to
work at Apple, Facebook, or Google than in most restaurants. I've eaten
at both Apple and Google and the food is excellent. Google doesn't
charge employees for meals which has hurt area restaurants. Steve Jobs
didn't believe in free food for employees so Apple charges enough to try
to break even so Apple employees still patronize local restaurants.
Apple Park is right next to a shopping center with a lot of good
restaurants. The City of Mountain View, when approving a new Facebook
campus, forbid Facebook from having a cafeteria.

....tech behemoths like Apple, Facebook and Google are hiring away their
best line cooks, dishwashers and servers with wages, benefits and perks
that restaurant owners simply cannot match," see:
<https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/19/technology/how-tech-companies-disrupted-silicon-valleys-restaurant-scene.html>

"What may be Insta-worthy and a great perk for company employees isn’t
so great for the cities that house tech campuses," see:
<https://www.theringer.com/tech/2018/8/2/17640904/facebook-cafeteria-free-food-mountain-view-menlo-park-google-headquarters>.

On 9/13/2021 6:37 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

<snip>

> I know places where neighbours may call the police when they see a black
> person enter an expensive house in a white neighbourhood or drive an
> expensive car :-P

At one place that my wife worked, when she sent a black home health care
worker to a certain small city they would call the police in advance to
inform them that he was coming, or he would inevitably be pulled over by
police.

In article <sho2ft$ipt$1@gioia.aioe.org>, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

>
> >> Another neighbour can call the police, when he sees a kid mowing
> >> the grass not at his home.
> >
> > That's un-American!
>
> In my jurisdiction we used to call them neighbor disputes. We had a
> unique police radio code for them which I don't remember now. I've been
> retired for 31 years so things have likely changed a bit anyway. But we
> sure used to get a LOT of calls for them. And for the dumbest things.
> Like family fights they were mostly (but not always) civil in nature but
> police responded anyway to try to keep the peace. So neighbors calling
> the cops to complain about neighbors was definitely an American pastime...

it just became much more than a pastime in texas, where people can make
$10,000 by reporting their neighbors...

In article <k0f41ixqnt.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> >
> >>>>>> Mobile wallet. What app is that one?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> no app needed, other than to initially add cards.
> >>>>
> >>>> Add where?
> >>>
> >>> to apple/google pay.
> >>>
> >> Ah, no, will use neither.
> >
> > any particular reason?
> >
>
> I don't have apples, and I don't like gugle on this thing.

what make/model is this 'thing' and are you using a custom rom?

On 13/09/2021 18.16, AJL wrote:
> On 9/13/2021 1:12 AM, Rob wrote:

>> Stamps do not even have their monetary value on them anymore, they
>> are just "stamp for mailing a letter" because the price is
>> increasing all the time (on the other hand that means you can save
>> some money by keeping a stock).
>
> Same here. We call them Forever Stamps.

Nice. I have not seen those.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 13/09/2021 19.44, sms wrote:
> On 9/13/2021 6:15 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Another factor here against teenagers working is that they steal jobs
>> from grown ups supporting a family. The teenager may work for a little
>> money that can not pay the cost of living on his own, would be seen in
>> bad light, similar to paperless inmigrants. In a country where we have
>> close to 20% unemployment, that's important.
>
> I think that that's a big factor. In the U.S. many types of businesses
> depend on minimum wage, part-time, unbenefitted, teenage unskilled
> labor, i.e. fast-food, movie theaters, and retail stores.

Oh, I remember noticing in Ottawa that often restaurant service was not
"professional" (compared to my country, Spain), being done by teenagers
mostly instead of seasoned professionals. They can be very willing,
certainly, but they lack experience.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 13/09/2021 19.44, sms wrote:
> On 9/13/2021 6:15 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Another factor here against teenagers working is that they steal jobs
>> from grown ups supporting a family. The teenager may work for a little
>> money that can not pay the cost of living on his own, would be seen in
>> bad light, similar to paperless inmigrants. In a country where we have
>> close to 20% unemployment, that's important.
>
> I think that that's a big factor. In the U.S. many types of businesses
> depend on minimum wage, part-time, unbenefitted, teenage unskilled
> labor, i.e. fast-food, movie theaters, and retail stores.
>
> There's a big labor shortage in the U.S. so in some areas minimum wage
> is no longer even applicable, fast food places in my area are paying
> well over the already high minimum wage set by cities, see
> <https://www.mv-voice.com/news/2021/01/03/mixed-reactions-accompany-south-bay-minimum-wage-increases>.
>
>
> Restaurants in my area have also been hurt by full-time workers taking
> jobs in corporate food service where they get better wages, benefits,
> and work less weekends. It's a lot better for a food service worker to
> work at Apple, Facebook, or Google than in most restaurants. I've eaten
> at both Apple and Google and the food is excellent. Google doesn't
> charge employees for meals which has hurt area restaurants. Steve Jobs
> didn't believe in free food for employees so Apple charges enough to try
> to break even so Apple employees still patronize local restaurants.
> Apple Park is right next to a shopping center with a lot of good
> restaurants. The City of Mountain View, when approving a new Facebook
> campus, forbid Facebook from having a cafeteria.
>
> ...tech behemoths like Apple, Facebook and Google are hiring away their
> best line cooks, dishwashers and servers with wages, benefits and perks
> that restaurant owners simply cannot match," see:
> <https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/19/technology/how-tech-companies-disrupted-silicon-valleys-restaurant-scene.html>
>
>
> "What may be Insta-worthy and a great perk for company employees isn’t
> so great for the cities that house tech campuses," see:
> <https://www.theringer.com/tech/2018/8/2/17640904/facebook-cafeteria-free-food-mountain-view-menlo-park-google-headquarters>.

Funny :-)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 13/09/2021 17.14, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
>
>> One of the things that they are testing here is, as bank branches and
>> ATMs are disappearing from villages, deliver cash to old people in
>> villages that request it.
>
> Here (Rob's and my country) they sometimes have a sort of shuttle
> services to bring people to the ATM/bank or/and have mobile banks, i.e.
> a branch office in a van.

Yes, that's another option they consider, but has not started AFAIK.

>
> We used to live in a small village. Over time the bank closed and
> later there wasn't even an ATM and we had to travel about 5km to another
> town. Then they also - effectively - stopped the bus service, so bike,
> very long walk or car. That gave a big uproar, so they brought back the
> ATM. (Now there are probably two or three.)

Oh.

> Now we live in a - for NL - big city, but also here one of my banks
> only has *one* branch office in the whole city. And that's for a major
> bank! :-( ATM are also scarce and being removed without any new ones.
>
> For us it's not major problem, but it is for many (not so) 'old'
> people who can't or don't want to use Internet banking or/and electronic
> payment.

Indeed.

>
>> The obvious job they do here is also deliver parcels.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.