In message <180420220350081120%nospam@nospam.invalid> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <t3j12b$bcq$1@dont-email.me>, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
> wrote:

>> >>> The customer never pays overtly.
>> >>
>> >> Apart from all the interest charges.
>> >
>> > pay in full and there are no interest charges.
>>
>> Obviously. Many don't, however.

> true, but that's their own personal choice.

> it's not something imposed upon them by the credit card industry.

And managing and paying and keeping track of your Apple Card is a whole
lot easier than any other card.

--
Bishops move diagonally. That's why they often turn up where the
kings don't expect them to be.

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
> On 4/17/2022 12:17 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>
> >> And (speak of the devil) I just now got an email bill from my car
> >> insurer. It took 5 taps on my phone to pay it (CC already on file).
> >> That's not just easy, it's easy peasy... ;)
> >
> > No less than 5 taps! How quaint! We just use - yes, very, very safe,
> > thank you very much - direct debit, so I don't have to do *anything*! :-)
>
> I could do that but there's no cashback with direct debit.

See below. (This baby says "boring!".)

> > For Europeans - well at least for us Dutchies - it's always quite
> > funny to see Americans 'brag' about how sophisticated their financial
> > systems are.
>
> Yup. Getting back a free $1000 bucks CC cashback a year is pretty
> unsophisticated alright...

We've been there several times before. Someone - actually someones,
plural - pay that 1000 bucks, it's just not you who's doing the paying.
(And don't get me wrong, in your position, I would do the same.)

On 4/18/2022 1:53 AM, Wilf wrote:

<snip>

> In the UK I think Apple Pay and Google Pay are reasonably popular. Here,
> of course, credit card cashback rewards are pretty minimal with 0.5%
> among the best.

True. I guess that card-issuing banks in the U.S. are not happy when
U.S. visitors to Europe use their 3% cash-back cards but the merchant
fees are capped at 0.5%.

As long as U.S. consumers are paying for the merchant's cost of credit
card acceptance then they may as well maximize their cash-back rewards.

Some U.S. businesses, especially gasoline stations, charge higher prices
if you pay with a credit card. Independent restaurants will often offer
a cash discount. OTOH, there are businesses that no longer accept cash
at all, and others that make it more of a hassle to pay with cash. There
are real costs associated with accepting cash, it's not like they're
paying 2% in fees for credit card transactions and 0% for cash
transactions. The cash transaction cost is less transparent. There is
theft by employees, increased transaction time per customer, counterfeit
bills, armored car service, increased risk of robberies, and bank fees.
But the big cost for cash-only businesses is in lost customers.

On 4/18/2022 6:58 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>> On 4/17/2022 12:17 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> And (speak of the devil) I just now got an email bill from my car
>>>> insurer. It took 5 taps on my phone to pay it (CC already on file).
>>>> That's not just easy, it's easy peasy... ;)
>>>
>>> No less than 5 taps! How quaint! We just use - yes, very, very safe,
>>> thank you very much - direct debit, so I don't have to do *anything*! :-)
>>
>> I could do that but there's no cashback with direct debit.
>
> See below. (This baby says "boring!".)
>
>>> For Europeans - well at least for us Dutchies - it's always quite
>>> funny to see Americans 'brag' about how sophisticated their financial
>>> systems are.
>>
>> Yup. Getting back a free $1000 bucks CC cashback a year is pretty
>> unsophisticated alright...
>
> We've been there several times before. Someone - actually someones,
> plural - pay that 1000 bucks, it's just not you who's doing the paying.
> (And don't get me wrong, in your position, I would do the same.)

It's a mistake to believe that merchants are willingly paying those
1.6-3% fees for no financial reason. There are significant advantages to
credit card transactions for the merchant. The biggest one I've seen,
lately is stores that have only a single staffed checkout lane but a
large number of "no cash" self-checkout lanes (supervised by a single
employee). The savings in wages and benefits are significant. Even in
the staffed checkout lane there will often be a sign asking customers to
not use cash if possible.

Some people have the notion that credit card transactions cost the
merchant 1.6-3% but that cash transactions have no cost. See
<https://www.ihlservices.com/product/costofcash/>. For some cash-only
businesses, the reason that they don't accept electronic payments are
more nefarious.

"sms" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote

| But the big cost for cash-only businesses is in lost customers.
|

You think so? Interesting question. I avoid computer
check-out in supermarkets. I would generally avoid a
business that requires a credit card, except things like
hotel chains where I can't avoid it.

There are people now who don't use cash, but from what
I've seen they're not using Apple Pay or CC. They're using
debit cards. They just think cash is "risky". (Not realizing
their debit card is not covered for theft as well as CCs are.)

Maybe 5 years ago I was with my neice, meeting to have
lunch after she had gone to some kind of game convention.
She was trying to show off how she could just wave her cellphone
to pay, but not one store even knew what she was trying to
do. She finally ended up going to an ATM and taking out $5,
at a cost of maybe $3, so she could buy gum or some such.
She didn't want to take out more because she was dedicated
to avoiding cash.

What I see there is not a reasoned choice or a trend of
the future. It's just a simple case of technophilia. There's no
problem with cash. There's no big problem with credit cards.
But there is a faction, especially young, who think all-digital
is very hip, will end all war, and will solve global warming. So
they wave their phone and get take-out food. "See? I just helped
the planet by not using electricity at an ATM.... Did you see a
barrel anywhere? I need to throw away all these take-out
containers."

On 4/18/2022 8:59 AM, Mayayana wrote:
> "sms" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote
>
> | But the big cost for cash-only businesses is in lost customers.
> |
>
> You think so? Interesting question. I avoid computer
> check-out in supermarkets. I would generally avoid a
> business that requires a credit card, except things like
> hotel chains where I can't avoid it.

For restaurants, absolutely.

There's also the benefit to businesses is that customers tend to spend
more freely when they aren't paying cash. For some people, paying cash
for a $50 bottle of wine at a restaurant would be unthinkable, but when
it's on a credit card it's more palatable. Any credit card fee that the
restaurant is paying is lost in the noise with the 200-400% markup on
alcohol.

In article <t3jvsc$uui$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> > In the UK I think Apple Pay and Google Pay are reasonably popular. Here,
> > of course, credit card cashback rewards are pretty minimal with 0.5%
> > among the best.
>
> True. I guess that card-issuing banks in the U.S. are not happy when
> U.S. visitors to Europe use their 3% cash-back cards but the merchant
> fees are capped at 0.5%.

you guess wrong. card issuers are happy when their cards are used,
regardless of where. rewards are covered via annual fees, foreign
transaction fees and arbitrage of the exchange rate, along with
interest and fees from other cardholders.

> As long as U.S. consumers are paying for the merchant's cost of credit
> card acceptance then they may as well maximize their cash-back rewards.

true.

> Some U.S. businesses, especially gasoline stations, charge higher prices
> if you pay with a credit card.

no, they very definitely do *not* do that because charging a higher
price is illegal (with a couple of exceptions which do not apply to
gasoline stations).

what they do is offer a *discount* from the standard price for those
who choose to use cash.

blame the lawyers. for some reason, they are not the same in the eyes
of the law.

> Independent restaurants will often offer
> a cash discount.

extremely rarely. they might ignore coins when giving change, but
that's about it.

> OTOH, there are businesses that no longer accept cash
> at all, and others that make it more of a hassle to pay with cash.

there are also businesses that only accept cash.

> There
> are real costs associated with accepting cash, it's not like they're
> paying 2% in fees for credit card transactions and 0% for cash
> transactions. The cash transaction cost is less transparent. There is
> theft by employees, increased transaction time per customer, counterfeit
> bills, armored car service, increased risk of robberies, and bank fees.
> But the big cost for cash-only businesses is in lost customers.

the cost to handle cash is *less* than for credit cards, which is why
the prices are sometimes discounted.

In article <t3k1t8$dqe$1@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
<mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> | But the big cost for cash-only businesses is in lost customers.
> |
>
> You think so? Interesting question. I avoid computer
> check-out in supermarkets.

what supermarket doesn't use a computerized check-out?

> I would generally avoid a
> business that requires a credit card, except things like
> hotel chains where I can't avoid it.

you might, but there are thousands of people lined up behind you who
don't care.

> There are people now who don't use cash, but from what
> I've seen they're not using Apple Pay or CC. They're using
> debit cards. They just think cash is "risky". (Not realizing
> their debit card is not covered for theft as well as CCs are.)

a debit card has more protection than cash and not everything is at
risk for theft. for example, eating at a restaurant.

not everyone can get a credit card either.

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 11:59:49 -0400, "Mayayana"
<mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

>"sms" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote
>
>| But the big cost for cash-only businesses is in lost customers.
>|
>
> You think so? Interesting question. I avoid computer
>check-out in supermarkets. I would generally avoid a
>business that requires a credit card, except things like
>hotel chains where I can't avoid it.
>
> There are people now who don't use cash, but from what
>I've seen they're not using Apple Pay or CC. They're using
>debit cards. They just think cash is "risky". (Not realizing
>their debit card is not covered for theft as well as CCs are.)

Here in London you need a debit card, credit card, or Oyster card to
use the buses and subway. There's no option to pay cash.

The only place I know in the area where I am now that requires payment
in cash is a Chinese takeaway that I use about once a month. That's
about the only time I ever need cash.

On 4/18/2022 6:58 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>> On 4/17/2022 12:17 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> And (speak of the devil) I just now got an email bill from my
>>>> car insurer. It took 5 taps on my phone to pay it (CC already
>>>> on file). That's not just easy, it's easy peasy... ;)
>>>
>>> No less than 5 taps! How quaint! We just use - yes, very, very
>>> safe, thank you very much - direct debit, so I don't have to do
>>> *anything*! :-)
>>
>> I could do that but there's no cashback with direct debit.

BTW I do have AUTOMATIC credit card withdrawal for several of my
services in which like your direct debit I don't have to do anything. My
Cox cable/ISP for instance. And it's even safer than direct debit since
if they screw up and withdraw too much, the rest of my charges won't
bounce like they might if they had direct access to my checking account.
Also I don't pay until I approve the monthly CC statement. Any
overcharges can be adjudicated while I still have my money. And of
course with this system I still get my (gasp) cashback...

> See below. (This baby says "boring!".)

You or me?

>>> For Europeans - well at least for us Dutchies - it's always
>>> quite funny to see Americans 'brag' about how sophisticated their
>>> financial systems are.

I am kind surprised you don't use such a system. Isn't it available in
your little country... ;)

>> Yup. Getting back a free $1000 bucks CC cashback a year is pretty
>> unsophisticated alright...

> We've been there several times before. Someone - actually someones,
> plural - pay that 1000 bucks, it's just not you who's doing the
> paying.

Of course. Better them than me. They pay my Amex stock dividends too.
Thanks guys.

> (And don't get me wrong, in your position, I would do the same.)

Glad to hear you're not playing the moral card like you-know-who...

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <t3j12b$bcq$1@dont-email.me>, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>>>> The customer never pays overtly.
>>>>
>>>> Apart from all the interest charges.
>>>
>>> pay in full and there are no interest charges.
>>
>> Obviously. Many don't, however.
>
> true, but that's their own personal choice.
>
> it's not something imposed upon them by the credit card industry.

No-one said otherwise.

It is a profitable revenue stream for the card providers, however.

Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
> In message <180420220350081120%nospam@nospam.invalid> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> In article <t3j12b$bcq$1@dont-email.me>, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>>>>> The customer never pays overtly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Apart from all the interest charges.
>>>>
>>>> pay in full and there are no interest charges.
>>>
>>> Obviously. Many don't, however.
>
>> true, but that's their own personal choice.
>
>> it's not something imposed upon them by the credit card industry.
>
> And managing and paying and keeping track of your Apple Card is a whole
> lot easier than any other card.

Which is not available outside of the US.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 4/18/2022 6:58 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
> >> On 4/17/2022 12:17 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> >>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> And (speak of the devil) I just now got an email bill from my car
> >>>> insurer. It took 5 taps on my phone to pay it (CC already on file).
> >>>> That's not just easy, it's easy peasy... ;)
> >>>
> >>> No less than 5 taps! How quaint! We just use - yes, very, very safe,
> >>> thank you very much - direct debit, so I don't have to do *anything*! :-)
> >>
> >> I could do that but there's no cashback with direct debit.
> >
> > See below. (This baby says "boring!".)
> >
> >>> For Europeans - well at least for us Dutchies - it's always quite
> >>> funny to see Americans 'brag' about how sophisticated their financial
> >>> systems are.
> >>
> >> Yup. Getting back a free $1000 bucks CC cashback a year is pretty
> >> unsophisticated alright...
> >
> > We've been there several times before. Someone - actually someones,
> > plural - pay that 1000 bucks, it's just not you who's doing the paying.
> > (And don't get me wrong, in your position, I would do the same.)
>
> It's a mistake to believe that merchants are willingly paying those
> 1.6-3% fees for no financial reason. There are significant advantages to
> credit card transactions for the merchant. The biggest one I've seen,
> lately is stores that have only a single staffed checkout lane but a
> large number of "no cash" self-checkout lanes (supervised by a single
> employee). The savings in wages and benefits are significant. Even in
> the staffed checkout lane there will often be a sign asking customers to
> not use cash if possible.
>
> Some people have the notion that credit card transactions cost the
> merchant 1.6-3% but that cash transactions have no cost. See
> <https://www.ihlservices.com/product/costofcash/>. For some cash-only
> businesses, the reason that they don't accept electronic payments are
> more nefarious.

All true, but I wasn't talking about cash, just about one kind of
electronic transaction versus another, credit(card) versus (in this case
direct) debit.

On 4/18/2022 9:34 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:

<snip>

> Here in London you need a debit card, credit card, or Oyster card to
> use the buses and subway. There's no option to pay cash.

I haven't been to London in about five years but I seem to recall that
you could pay cash for Oyster Cards, either at the machine or in the
staffed ticket office.

> The only place I know in the area where I am now that requires payment
> in cash is a Chinese takeaway that I use about once a month. That's
> about the only time I ever need cash.

In my area, it's also some of the Chinese restaurants that are cash
only, but it's definitely become less common in the last few years. Our
last remaining bar in town is cash only, but that's about it.

Amusingly, the one time I end up with a bunch of cash is when Citibank
sends out their rewards certificates for the Costco Visa. It's better to
cash them out than to use them to make purchases since when you use them
to make a purchase you don't get the credit card cash back. So I'll end
up with a couple of hundred dollars in cash that takes me many months to
go through, or I suppose I could deposit it in the bank.

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
> On 4/18/2022 6:58 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
> >> On 4/17/2022 12:17 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> >>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> And (speak of the devil) I just now got an email bill from my
> >>>> car insurer. It took 5 taps on my phone to pay it (CC already
> >>>> on file). That's not just easy, it's easy peasy... ;)
> >>>
> >>> No less than 5 taps! How quaint! We just use - yes, very, very
> >>> safe, thank you very much - direct debit, so I don't have to do
> >>> *anything*! :-)
> >>
> >> I could do that but there's no cashback with direct debit.
>
> BTW I do have AUTOMATIC credit card withdrawal for several of my
> services in which like your direct debit I don't have to do anything. My
> Cox cable/ISP for instance.

Yeah, I have a few of those as well, mainly for US companies which
lack real financial systems! :-) Just kidding.

> And it's even safer than direct debit since
> if they screw up and withdraw too much, the rest of my charges won't
> bounce like they might if they had direct access to my checking account.

As I said, we have a very, very safe direct debit system, no
comparison to the US one. But theoretically something could go wrong. I
only had one such case in some 5+ decades and it was only for a tiny
amount.

[...]

> >> Yup. Getting back a free $1000 bucks CC cashback a year is pretty
> >> unsophisticated alright...
>
> > We've been there several times before. Someone - actually someones,
> > plural - pay that 1000 bucks, it's just not you who's doing the
> > paying.
>
> Of course. Better them than me. They pay my Amex stock dividends too.
> Thanks guys.
>
> > (And don't get me wrong, in your position, I would do the same.)
>
> Glad to hear you're not playing the moral card like you-know-who...

<firmly_sitting_on_hands>

On 4/18/2022 11:02 AM, Chris wrote:
> Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>> In message <180420220350081120%nospam@nospam.invalid> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>> In article <t3j12b$bcq$1@dont-email.me>, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> The customer never pays overtly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apart from all the interest charges.
>>>>>
>>>>> pay in full and there are no interest charges.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously. Many don't, however.
>>
>>> true, but that's their own personal choice.
>>
>>> it's not something imposed upon them by the credit card industry.
>>
>> And managing and paying and keeping track of your Apple Card is a whole
>> lot easier than any other card.
>
> Which is not available outside of the US.

The Apple Card is not a very good credit card anyway. It's great if you
want to finance a purchase you make directly from Apple but that's about it.

The positives of the Apple Card are:
• Available to sub-prime applicants with low income and low FICO scores
• Color-coded spending summaries
• 0% Financing on iPhone and other Apple Products

The negatives of the Apple Card are:
• No High Rewards on All Purchases
• Lack of Key Security Features─No Chip & PIN, No True Virtual Cards
• Lack of Key Convenience Features─No Contactless, No Cash Advances, No
Selectable Billing Date
• No Extended Warranty, No Rental Car Coverage, No Travel Coverage, No
Price Protection
• Doesn’t Work with All Mobile Payment Systems
• No Way to Pay Balance with Online Bill Pay or By Check
• No Mobile Phone Protection Coverage

My son got the Apple Card because he had just graduated from college and
just started working and it was the only card he could qualify for with
no credit history, even though he had gotten a job with sufficient
income. I think now he could get other cards but he's so deep into the
Apple ecosystem that he has used the 0% financing.

On 4/18/2022 11:32 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

<snip>

> All true, but I wasn't talking about cash, just about one kind of
> electronic transaction versus another, credit(card) versus (in this case
> direct) debit.

Debit cards are about the worst way to pay for stuff but some people
can't qualify for a credit card.

"Frank Slootweg" <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote

| All true, but I wasn't talking about cash, just about one kind of
| electronic transaction versus another, credit(card) versus (in this case
| direct) debit.

Debit cards in the US have fees.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 4/18/2022 11:32 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > All true, but I wasn't talking about cash, just about one kind of
> > electronic transaction versus another, credit(card) versus (in this case
> > direct) debit.
>
> Debit cards are about the worst way to pay for stuff but some people
> can't qualify for a credit card.

Sigh! This was about US creditcard versus EU/NL direct debit. EU/NL
direct debit and debit cards are quite different from that/those in the
US.

Back to *your* point, in EU/NL, most card transactions are via debit
cards, not credit cards, as credit cards offer little advantage for
either party and carry more risks.

"sms" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote

| There's also the benefit to businesses is that customers tend to spend
| more freely when they aren't paying cash. For some people, paying cash
| for a $50 bottle of wine at a restaurant would be unthinkable, but when
| it's on a credit card it's more palatable. Any credit card fee that the
| restaurant is paying is lost in the noise with the 200-400% markup on
| alcohol.

I'm beginning to think yu must work for a credit
card company. It seems they do just about anything except
maybe removing grass stains from pants. :)

Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> "Frank Slootweg" <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote
>
> | All true, but I wasn't talking about cash, just about one kind of
> | electronic transaction versus another, credit(card) versus (in this case
> | direct) debit.
>
> Debit cards in the US have fees.

I rest my case! :-)

(Well, as I mentioned to sms, the actual discussion was a US credit
card payment (of car insurance) versus a EU/NL direct debit (Dutch
'incasso') payment (of same).)

In article <t3k936$60n$1@dont-email.me>, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
wrote:

> >
> > And managing and paying and keeping track of your Apple Card is a whole
> > lot easier than any other card.
>
> Which is not available outside of the US.

yet.

In article <t3kcd2$vfr$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> The positives of the Apple Card are:
> € Available to sub-prime applicants with low income and low FICO scores

false. the apple card is *not* a sub-prime card, which is often called
a rebuilder card for those who want to rebuild their credit.

also, sub-prime applicants who have low income and fico scores don't
normally buy iphones and sign up for credit cards.

positives you neglect to mention:
- soft-pull when applying
- can be used instantly after approval, no need to wait for a physical
card to arrive
- more secure than other cards
- metal

> The negatives of the Apple Card are:
> € Lack of Key Security Features?No Chip & PIN, No True Virtual Cards

false. it's actually one of the most secure card available, one reason
being the card number is not printed on the card since that no longer
serves any purpose whatsoever.

another reason is that all transactions (other than using the physical
card) use a virtual card number, which is visible in the app and can be
regenerated at any time.

> € Lack of Key Convenience Features?No Contactless, No Cash Advances, No
> Selectable Billing Date

false. apple card is designed to be exclusively contactless, however,
that's done with a phone or watch, not the card. welcome to the future.

since nearly every merchant accepts contactless, a physical card is
optional.

cash advances on a credit card are *very* stupid, as they incur a high
interest rate without any grace period.

not supporting cash advances is a *huge* advantage because it
guarantees that a purchase can't code as a cash advance (which
sometimes happens, such as when buying cash equivalents or similar),
surprising the customer with additional fees.

smart consumers set their cash advance limit for their other cards to
$0, although not all card issuers offer that option. if not, they lower
it to whatever the minimum amount is.

> € Doesn¹t Work with All Mobile Payment Systems

yes it very definitely does.

> € No Way to Pay Balance with Online Bill Pay or By Check

false.

physical checks can be mailed to goldman sachs, not that anyone would
consider doing that anymore. online bill pay is another option, which
uses an electronic transfer, both faster and more reliable.

however, it's easiest to pay from the app. welcome to the future.

> € No Mobile Phone Protection Coverage

very, very few cards offer that, and it's normally only with service
from the big 3, not an mvno, and usually with a contract, making it not
particularly good.

> My son got the Apple Card because he had just graduated from college and
> just started working and it was the only card he could qualify for with
> no credit history, even though he had gotten a job with sufficient
> income.

bullshit.

there are numerous credit cards specifically intended for college
graduates as well as those with minimal credit history.

college grads are inundated with card promos and bank representatives
visit colleges to take applications and answer questions.

card issuers can easily verify employment and salary, so that's not an
obstacle whatsoever.

In article <t3kcft$vfr$2@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> Debit cards are about the worst way to pay for stuff

that depends on the stuff.

some merchants, such as the irs tax payment processors, have a
'convenience fee', which for credit cards is a percentage of the total
amount, but only a couple of dollars for a debit card, regardless of
the amount. that means that for larger tax payments, the difference can
be substantial.

also, some merchants only accept debit cards because the transaction
fees are less.

there are even a few debit cards that offer rewards, although that is
not common.

In article <t3kdb8$7rs$1@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
<mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> Debit cards in the US have fees.

they do not.