sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 4/18/2022 12:17 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> >> On 4/18/2022 11:32 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >>> All true, but I wasn't talking about cash, just about one kind of
> >>> electronic transaction versus another, credit(card) versus (in this case
> >>> direct) debit.
> >>
> >> Debit cards are about the worst way to pay for stuff but some people
> >> can't qualify for a credit card.
> >
> > Sigh! This was about US creditcard versus EU/NL direct debit. EU/NL
> > direct debit and debit cards are quite different from that/those in the
> > US.
> >
> > Back to *your* point, in EU/NL, most card transactions are via debit
> > cards, not credit cards, as credit cards offer little advantage for
> > either party and carry more risks.
>
> The Google Pay and Apple Pay web pages list the banks and cards that are
> supported by each payment method.
>
> Netherlands, Google Pay support:
> <https://support.google.com/pay/answer/10173695>
[...]
> Netherlands, Apple Pay Support
> <https://www.apple.com/nl/apple-pay/banks/nl/en-nl.html>
[...]
>
> But just because you can add those Netherlands-based cards into Google
> Pay or Apple Pay doesn't mean you can use Google Pay or Apple Pay at any
> merchant that takes Google Pay or Apple Pay. The underlying payment
> method matters and you can't use Apple Pay or Google Pay if the merchant
> doesn't support the underlying payment method. The biggest example in
> the U.S. is the Costco chain of warehouse stores which takes Visa but
> not Mastercard, credit cards, but takes all U.S. debit cards. I suspect
> that it's the same in the Netherlands.

In The Netherlands, a merchant who accepts credit cards will most
likely accept both Visa and Mastercard. And they will indeed accept any
(Meastro) debit card.

FWIW, we have Mastercard credit cards because they are better accepted
in the main place we need - correction, needed :-( - them, Australia.

In article <t3n040$rb4$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> But just because you can add those Netherlands-based cards into Google
> Pay or Apple Pay doesn't mean you can use Google Pay or Apple Pay at any
> merchant that takes Google Pay or Apple Pay.

enrolling a card in apple/google pay is unrelated to whether someone
can pay with an already enrolled card at a random merchant.

with very rare exception, once a card is added to apple/google pay,
regardless of the issuer or country, it can be used with any payment
terminal that also accepts the same card by dipping or tapping (or even
swiping).

> The underlying payment
> method matters and you can't use Apple Pay or Google Pay if the merchant
> doesn't support the underlying payment method.

true, but not relevant.

> The biggest example in
> the U.S. is the Costco chain of warehouse stores which takes Visa but
> not Mastercard, credit cards, but takes all U.S. debit cards. I suspect
> that it's the same in the Netherlands.

that's an exception.

a major issue with costco is they refuse most credit cards, regardless
of how the customer uses it. another is that they require a membership.

On 4/19/2022 11:18 AM, sms wrote:

> The credit cards with the best cash rebates are marketed to those with
> the best credit ratings who are much less likely to carry a balance.
> Those high cash-back rewards are only possible because of the people
> paying usurious interest rates.

Yep, those poor folks are being forced to carry a balance...

On 4/19/2022 9:32 AM, nospam wrote:
> In article <t3mjis$jdg$1@dont-email.me>, AJL <noemail@none.com>
> wrote:

>>> checks are less common than they once were, but they are still
>>> very much alive.

>> And also now very easy to cash with a phone...

> that too, although it's only to deposit it.

That's what one normally does with checks.

> i haven't seen a phone with a cash dispenser yet.

No need. The deposited check can then help fund my Amex...

On 4/19/2022 12:27 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

<snip>

> FWIW, we have Mastercard credit cards because they are better accepted
> in the main place we need - correction, needed :-( - them, Australia.

According to
<https://www.savings.com.au/credit-cards/visa-vs-mastercard-which-is-better>
Visa is accepted at slightly more places in Australia.

In the U.S. it's rare that a business will take Visa but not Mastercard,
or vice-versa, with the notable exception of Costco which negotiated a
very low fee with Citibank and Visa for Costco purchases in exchange for
exclusivity (reportedly 0.4% for non-Citibank Costco Visa cards and 0%
for the Citibank Costco Visa card).

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 4/19/2022 12:27 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > FWIW, we have Mastercard credit cards because they are better accepted
> > in the main place we need - correction, needed :-( - them, Australia.
>
> According to
> <https://www.savings.com.au/credit-cards/visa-vs-mastercard-which-is-better>
> Visa is accepted at slightly more places in Australia.

No, at slightly more (40 million versus (estimated) 37 million) places
(merchants) *globally*. (N.B. The 40/37 million cannot be for Australia,
because there are aren't that many people, let alone merchants. OTOH,
for worldwide I find the numbers of 40/37 million rather low.)

At the time (May 2020) I had to make a choice - at (early) 'renewal'
my bank gave me a Visa card, while I had a Mastercard card before - I
did a little Googling and came up with this reference:

'Most Popular Credit Card By Country: Visa, Mastercard Or Amex'
<https://merchantmachine.co.uk/visa-mastercard-amex>

which says:

"The 22 countries where Mastercard is the most popular credit card
company

1. Australia"

BUT, in hindsight that's not very hard/useful data, because it's not
about acceptance of the two types of credit cards, but about popularity
in Google searches. Sigh! :-(

"The map above shows which credit card company is the most popular in
each country based on Google search data from Google Trends. It does
not reflect the number of cards issued, nor transaction volume, simply
the volume of searches for each company."

So shall we have a contest about which source is more irrelevant,
yours, because it's not about Australia, or mine, because it's not about
acceptance!? The winner gets a free Apple Card!

> In the U.S. it's rare that a business will take Visa but not Mastercard,
> or vice-versa, with the notable exception of Costco which negotiated a
> very low fee with Citibank and Visa for Costco purchases in exchange for
> exclusivity (reportedly 0.4% for non-Citibank Costco Visa cards and 0%
> for the Citibank Costco Visa card).

Yeah, we never had any problems with acceptance of our Mastercard
cards, but, as I said, we don't use them all that much.

On 4/20/2022 7:08 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>> On 4/19/2022 12:27 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> FWIW, we have Mastercard credit cards because they are better accepted
>>> in the main place we need - correction, needed :-( - them, Australia.
>>
>> According to
>> <https://www.savings.com.au/credit-cards/visa-vs-mastercard-which-is-better>
>> Visa is accepted at slightly more places in Australia.
>
> No, at slightly more (40 million versus (estimated) 37 million) places
> (merchants) *globally*. (N.B. The 40/37 million cannot be for Australia,
> because there are aren't that many people, let alone merchants. OTOH,
> for worldwide I find the numbers of 40/37 million rather low.)
>
> At the time (May 2020) I had to make a choice - at (early) 'renewal'
> my bank gave me a Visa card, while I had a Mastercard card before - I
> did a little Googling and came up with this reference:
>
> 'Most Popular Credit Card By Country: Visa, Mastercard Or Amex'
> <https://merchantmachine.co.uk/visa-mastercard-amex>

Well based on the fact that that web site claims that American Express
is the "most popular" credit card company in the United States and
China, I wouldn't put too much stock in that web site. American Express
is the least accepted credit card in the United States, though at least
for national retailers it's much improved (American Express claims that
only 1% of businesses that take Mastercard and Visa don't take American
Express. Where Amex isn't accepted is at smaller, independent
businesses, which in my area, are the best indpendent restaurants.

On 4/20/2022 8:15 AM, sms wrote:

<snip>

> Well based on the fact that that web site claims that American Express
> is the "most popular" credit card company in the United States and
> China, I wouldn't put too much stock in that web site.

See
<https://www.statista.com/statistics/245372/number-of-cardholders-by-credit-card-type/>.

In 2018, number of cardholders:

Visa: 180 million
Mastercard: 97 million
Discover: 44 million
American Express: 36 million

On 4/20/2022 8:15 AM, sms wrote:

> Where Amex isn't accepted is at smaller, independent businesses,
> which in my area, are the best independent restaurants.

I found quite a few shops in Seaport Village (San Diego) that
didn't take Amex. Also some on Coronado Island (that's not an island and
also near San Diego). It was a bit surprising to me since being a
tourist trap...

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 11:47:37 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 4/18/2022 9:34 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Here in London you need a debit card, credit card, or Oyster card to
>> use the buses and subway. There's no option to pay cash.
>
>I haven't been to London in about five years but I seem to recall that
>you could pay cash for Oyster Cards, either at the machine or in the
>staffed ticket office.

That's what I'm saying. You can't use cash itself on the buses or
subway in London. You need to use a bank card or buy an Oyster card.

In article <t3pbmq$knd$1@dont-email.me>, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

>
> > Where Amex isn't accepted is at smaller, independent businesses,
> > which in my area, are the best independent restaurants.
>
> I found quite a few shops in Seaport Village (San Diego) that
> didn't take Amex. Also some on Coronado Island (that's not an island and
> also near San Diego). It was a bit surprising to me since being a
> tourist trap...

the number of merchants is misleading.

what matters is the number of people affected and the number of
transactions made.

costco, the fifth largest retailer in the world, doesn't accept
mastercard, which affects far more people and far larger amounts than a
couple of small shops in san diego and elsewhere that doesn't accept
amex.

<https://nrf.com/blog/2020-top-50-global-retailers>

several years ago, kroger, one of the largests grocery chains in the
usa, stopped accepting visa. they eventually resolved their
differences.

<https://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2019/03/01/kroger-expands-visa-c
ard-ban-more-than-160-stores/3026544002/>
The ban now affects 1 in 20 Kroger-owned stores. The latest ban
affects 142 stores and 108 fuel centers. While no Kroger stores
outside the West are affected, company officials didn't rule out
expanding the ban if the impasse continues.

Kroger operates nearly 2,800 supermarkets under several regional
subsidiaries in 35 states, including: its namesake Kroger stores, 
Harris Teeter, Ralphs, Fry's, King Soopers and Fred Meyer stores.

nothing is going to work everywhere. carry multiple cards.

On 4/20/2022 9:43 AM, nospam wrote:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

>> I found quite a few shops in Seaport Village (San Diego) that
>> didn't take Amex. Also some on Coronado Island (that's not an
>> island and also near San Diego). It was a bit surprising to me
>> since being a tourist trap...

> the number of merchants is misleading.

I just thought it an interesting observation since I live in a heavy
tourist area as well. Many didn't take Amex in SD and yet all do here
(in my SURVEY OF ONE).

> costco, the fifth largest retailer in the world, doesn't accept
> mastercard,

I got my first Amex card from Costco when I first joined up.

> which affects far more people and far larger amounts than a couple
> of small shops in san diego and elsewhere that doesn't accept amex.

IIRC at Costco they either took their card or cash so you were SOL if
you didn't have one or the other. I quit them many years ago so perhaps
things are different now.

> nothing is going to work everywhere. carry multiple cards.

Yup. And cash...

In message <eqd06hdgfk9v323p00q8jv04r6r7hk05pg@4ax.com> Chris in Makati <mail@nospam.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 11:47:37 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
> wrote:

>>On 4/18/2022 9:34 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>> Here in London you need a debit card, credit card, or Oyster card to
>>> use the buses and subway. There's no option to pay cash.
>>
>>I haven't been to London in about five years but I seem to recall that
>>you could pay cash for Oyster Cards, either at the machine or in the
>>staffed ticket office.

> That's what I'm saying. You can't use cash itself on the buses or
> subway in London. You need to use a bank card or buy an Oyster card.

Apple Pay works perfectly well on London transit, we did not buy Oyster
cards and simply tapped on/off with our Apple watches.

(Summer 2017)

--
GRAMMAR IS NOT A TIME OF WASTE Bart chalkboard Ep. AABF10

In article <t3phu2$aek$1@dont-email.me>, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

> > costco, the fifth largest retailer in the world, doesn't accept
> > mastercard,
>
> I got my first Amex card from Costco when I first joined up.

costco dropped amex several years ago and no longer accepts it because
visa undercut them by cutting the transaction fee to almost 0%.

<https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/04/02/costcos-new-visa-card-
will-be-extremely-rewarding.aspx>
From day one, it was clear that Citigroup and Visa had offered much
better terms than American Express was ever willing to stomach. The
new agreements -- which will go into effect in late June -- will cut
Costco's card acceptance fees to around zero.

On 4/20/2022 12:10 PM, nospam wrote:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

>> I got my first Amex card from Costco when I first joined up.

> costco dropped amex several years ago and no longer accepts it
> because visa undercut them by cutting the transaction fee to almost
> 0%.

Open competition is usually good for the consumer (assuming Costco
passed on the fee savings). I left Costco before the CC change and Amex
just switched me to their card...

In article <t3poet$1hm$1@dont-email.me>, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
> >> I got my first Amex card from Costco when I first joined up.
>
> > costco dropped amex several years ago and no longer accepts it
> > because visa undercut them by cutting the transaction fee to almost
> > 0%.
>
> Open competition is usually good for the consumer

except that what visa did was predatory.

> (assuming Costco
> passed on the fee savings).

they claim they did, but there's no way to know and they'd be foolish
to not keep some for themselves, especially since costco prices are
generally less than most other places.

> I left Costco before the CC change and Amex
> just switched me to their card...

which one?

"Chris in Makati" <mail@nospam.com> wrote

| That's what I'm saying. You can't use cash itself on the buses or
| subway in London. You need to use a bank card or buy an Oyster card.
|

I visited London about 20 years ago. Even then I had
to buy tickets for the subway. I was amazed. It seems
to be the trend everywhere now. Beancounters want
a record. So we buy a piece of paper. Put the piece of
paper through a slot. Then throw away the piece of paper.
Global warming? Who cares. We'll just assume the piece
of paper is being recycled in a way that uses no energy.

On 4/20/2022 1:11 PM, nospam wrote:
> In article <t3poet$1hm$1@dont-email.me>, AJL <noemail@none.com>
> wrote:

>>> costco dropped amex several years ago and no longer accepts it
>>> because visa undercut them by cutting the transaction fee to
>>> almost 0%.
>>
>> Open competition is usually good for the consumer
>
> except that what visa did was predatory.

All's fair in love and competition.

>> (assuming Costco passed on the fee savings).

> they claim they did, but there's no way to know and they'd be foolish
> to not keep some for themselves, especially since costco prices are
> generally less than most other places.

Well if all Costco stores are like ours (3 within 10 miles of me) they
don't need to worry. The parking lots are jammed and the gas stations
usually have 6+ deep car lines.

>> I left Costco before the CC change and Amex just switched me to
>> their card...

> which one?

Don't remember. Not sure they even had a cashback card back then...

In article <t3ppva$ebo$1@dont-email.me>, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

> >> (assuming Costco passed on the fee savings).
>
> > they claim they did, but there's no way to know and they'd be foolish
> > to not keep some for themselves, especially since costco prices are
> > generally less than most other places.
>
> Well if all Costco stores are like ours (3 within 10 miles of me) they
> don't need to worry. The parking lots are jammed and the gas stations
> usually have 6+ deep car lines.

exactly why there's no pressure to lower prices.

On 4/20/2022 9:40 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 11:47:37 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/18/2022 9:34 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Here in London you need a debit card, credit card, or Oyster card to
>>> use the buses and subway. There's no option to pay cash.
>>
>> I haven't been to London in about five years but I seem to recall that
>> you could pay cash for Oyster Cards, either at the machine or in the
>> staffed ticket office.
>
> That's what I'm saying. You can't use cash itself on the buses or
> subway in London. You need to use a bank card or buy an Oyster card.

Here you can still pay with cash, or buy a ticket with cash, on most of
the transit systems. However you'll pay more than if you use the iPhone
app or Android app. At some stores you can buy a physical transit card
that you can load using cash or a credit card at the store for immediate
use and you can get the lower non-cash fare price.

In this area, paying with cash on the bus, or buying a single train
ticket with cash (or a credit card), at a ticket machine, increases the
fare in many cases and in other cases using cash loses benefits like
free transfers.

To my knowledge, you can't pay with a credit card directly on any of our
transit systems yet. Apparently it’s complicated for the transit systems
to set up a credit card payment system when the cost of a trip isn’t
known until the rider tags out at the destination. For example, a
one-way ride on Caltrain can cost between $3.20 and $14.45 (if using the
app on your phone or the transit card) but they don’t know how much to
charge until you get off and scan your phone or transit card. I guess
they could put a hold on your card for the maximum fare when you tag on
then take the hold off when you tag out and charge you the proper fare.
How does that work in London?

People paying cash are a real annoyance for the bus drivers as it can
hold up the bus as they shove the money into the fare box.

When I was in Shanghai in 2019 I asked the hotel desk clerk how much the
local bus cost and he had no idea. No residents would ever pay with cash
for the bus (or for anything), they all pay with their phones. So I took
a handful of coins with me and was able to ask the bus driver, in my
rudimentary Mandarin, “多少钱” (Duō shǎo qián) "How much?" At least the
driver understood me better than the waiter at a restaurant who informed
me, in perfect English, that I had just ordered a steamed tractor.

In article <t3q1br$95a$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> People paying cash are a real annoyance for the bus drivers as it can
> hold up the bus as they shove the money into the fare box.

you obviously do not use public transit and two years ago, you said
cash payments on transit was not possible.

in any event, the drivers don't care and it doesn't hold up the bus
either because the bus starts moving before the person is done
inserting the cash, after the other people have tapped.

more often, riders dig their card out of their backpack or purse or
wallet, which takes longer than paying cash.

what does annoy drivers are traffic or construction delays (which
annoys everyone), unruly passengers and those who try to sneak aboard
without paying.

On 4/20/2022 1:20 PM, AJL wrote:

<snip>

> Well if all Costco stores are like ours (3 within 10 miles of me) they
> don't need to worry. The parking lots are jammed and the gas stations
> usually have 6+ deep car lines.

I went there today. There was no wait for the gas station and it was
about 40 cents per gallon less than other gas stations selling gasoline
from the same refinery.

No lines at checkout either. I guess Wednesday morning is a good time to
go to Costco.

As to their credit cards, I've had Discover when that was the only card
they took, Amex when that was the only card they took, and now I use
Visa there, though usually not the Citibank Costco Visa.

In message <200420221848044458%nospam@nospam.invalid> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <t3q1br$95a$1@dont-email.me>, sms
> <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>> People paying cash are a real annoyance for the bus drivers as it can
>> hold up the bus as they shove the money into the fare box.

> you obviously do not use public transit and two years ago, you said
> cash payments on transit was not possible.

> in any event, the drivers don't care and it doesn't hold up the bus
> either because the bus starts moving before the person is done
> inserting the cash, after the other people have tapped.

> more often, riders dig their card out of their backpack or purse or
> wallet, which takes longer than paying cash.

I THINK the local buses don't take cash anymore, but I am not positive.
Getting a ticket on your phone is trivial, and the 'day pass' is the
same cost as a single round trip on the bus, so that's what people use.
The last time I rode the bus (last fall) everyone had a pre-paid ticket.

I suspect it was technically possible to pay cash, but if so I didn't
see the coin slot.

The light-rail has never taken cash or tokens, only pre-paid passes.

--
I CAN'T SEE DEAD PEOPLE Bart chalkboard Ep. BABF05

On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 18:28:16 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>In message <eqd06hdgfk9v323p00q8jv04r6r7hk05pg@4ax.com> Chris in Makati <mail@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 11:47:37 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>>On 4/18/2022 9:34 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>> Here in London you need a debit card, credit card, or Oyster card to
>>>> use the buses and subway. There's no option to pay cash.
>>>
>>>I haven't been to London in about five years but I seem to recall that
>>>you could pay cash for Oyster Cards, either at the machine or in the
>>>staffed ticket office.
>
>> That's what I'm saying. You can't use cash itself on the buses or
>> subway in London. You need to use a bank card or buy an Oyster card.
>
>Apple Pay works perfectly well on London transit, we did not buy Oyster
>cards and simply tapped on/off with our Apple watches.
>
>(Summer 2017)

Yes, Apple Pay and any contactless payment works fine. I use it almost
every day. But NO cash is accepted on the buses. That's the point I
was making.

On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 15:27:05 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

> guess
>they could put a hold on your card for the maximum fare when you tag on
>then take the hold off when you tag out and charge you the proper fare.
>How does that work in London?

I'm not sure whether they put a hold on your card when using the
London Underground (subway), but London buses are charged at a flat
rate of £1.65, no matter how long the journey.